Airliners.net

victrola wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

This isn't over by any means. The vast majority of Republicans still believe strongly that the election was stolen. Trump continues his delusional rants and people like you still support him. Poll workers are receiving death threats and being hounded out of office, New election officials who support Trump's big lie are being put in place and preparations are being made to make sure that the next putsch will be successful. Moderate Republicans are retiring from office. People like Marjorie Taylor Green, Jim Jordan and Madison Cawthorn are now the Republican mainstream, These people have contempt for the truth, democracy, and the rule of law.

I don't support Trump. Just because I have some conservative views you think I support him? I have never once claimed I supported Trump. I consider myself a conservative leaning libertarian, and not a Republican, not that it matters. You are obviously seeing Republicans though a biased lens, and lumping everyone who doesn't support your views in the same boat. This is what I believe to be a huge part of the problem in the country today. Everyone wants to lump everyone else into the us vs them. Every person I know has unique beliefs and don't necessarily fit nicely into any one category.

casinterest wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

THe covid deaths are from misinformation and bad politicians. And no, people have not moved on from Jan 6. The same criminals that made it possible are still holding offices in many states and in the federal government.

Please site a source that points to misinformation causing hundreds of thousands of deaths from Covid or claim that it is your opinion. I said people I know, I am not talking about politicians. Hell there are still politicians that claim the BS about BHOs birth certificate. I don't really listen to much of what politicians say, they lie.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... death-rate

NPR looked at deaths per 100,000 people in roughly 3,000 counties across the U.S. from May 2021, the point at which vaccinations widely became available. People living in counties that went 60% or higher for Trump in November 2020 had 2.73 times the death rates of those that went for Biden. Counties with an even higher share of the vote for Trump saw higher COVID-19 mortality rates.

That is saying vaccine misinformation is causing that. I am asking about how election misinformation, specifically related to 01/06 since this is what we are discussing. is causing hundred of thousands of deaths? Also, in my opinion, if you were to actually go talk to some of these folks that you seem to have such a disdain for, you would be surprised that you are not that much different than each other.

bpatus297 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

Please site a source that points to misinformation causing hundreds of thousands of deaths from Covid or claim that it is your opinion. I said people I know, I am not talking about politicians. Hell there are still politicians that claim the BS about BHOs birth certificate. I don't really listen to much of what politicians say, they lie.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... death-rate

NPR looked at deaths per 100,000 people in roughly 3,000 counties across the U.S. from May 2021, the point at which vaccinations widely became available. People living in counties that went 60% or higher for Trump in November 2020 had 2.73 times the death rates of those that went for Biden. Counties with an even higher share of the vote for Trump saw higher COVID-19 mortality rates.

That is saying vaccine misinformation is causing that. I am asking about how election misinformation, specifically related to 01/06 since this is what we are discussing. is causing hundred of thousands of deaths? Also, in my opinion, if you were to actually go talk to some of these folks that you seem to have such a disdain for, you would be surprised that you are not that much different than each other.

The vaccine misinformation is from the same people that denied the election. The same issue pervades the republican party currently. Misinformation and lies for a political advantage.
It isn't that these people are different. It is that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. They don't know what reality is anymore about the election or covid. They live in an echo chamber of misinformation, and it allows bad decisions to be made. Decisions that have cost lives, and could cost us the very democracy upon which we all value.

casinterest wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... death-rate

That is saying vaccine misinformation is causing that. I am asking about how election misinformation, specifically related to 01/06 since this is what we are discussing. is causing hundred of thousands of deaths? Also, in my opinion, if you were to actually go talk to some of these folks that you seem to have such a disdain for, you would be surprised that you are not that much different than each other.

The vaccine misinformation is from the same people that denied the election. The same issue pervades the republican party currently. Misinformation and lies for a political advantage.
It isn't that these people are different. It is that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. They don't know what reality is anymore about the election or covid. They live in an echo chamber of misinformation, and it allows bad decisions to be made. Decisions that have cost lives, and could cost us the very democracy upon which we all value.

Regardless, 01/06 did not cause hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths.

Reinhardt wrote:

afcjets wrote:

The people arrested at the Capitol on 1/6 (unless you want to count stun guns), according to the NPR link from GDB in the second post on this page, even though he says otherwise in his post. In all fairness to him, the headline might have been designed to mislead and like many people he didn't actually read the article.

But this was posted above. Was this guy not armed and there on 1/6 ? I'm confused.

skyservice_330 wrote:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 57164.html
Most heavily armed January 6 rioter pleads guilty to bringing five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails to Capitol
Lonnie Coffman admits federal weapons charges after bringing arsenal of firearms and explosive devices to Capitol

.
According to DOJ records, more than 200 people have now been arrested and charged with assaulting police on Jan. 6, 2021. Some protesters did have guns - that includes Lonnie Coffman, who pleaded guilty to driving his pickup to the Capitol while in possession of several loaded guns, ammunition, a crossbow, machetes and jars filled with ingredients for molotov cocktails.

Prosecutors say weapons don’t necessarily only mean firearms. An array of makeshift weapons were used in the melee, including crutches, flagpoles and stolen police batons, records say.

I wasn't aware of him, most likely because he never attempted to enter the Capitol or unconceal his firearm and was only in the vicinity of the Capitol.

"Lonnie Leroy Coffman, 71, of Falkville, Alabama, pleaded guilty today to federal and local firearms offenses stemming from the discovery of weapons in his pickup truck parked near the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6.

According to his plea agreement, Coffman traveled from Alabama to the District of Columbia several days prior to Jan. 6 and parked his red GMC Sierra pickup truck at the 300 block of First Street, SE, on the morning of Jan. 6. Less than half a mile away in the U.S. Capitol Building, a joint session of the U.S. Congress was scheduled to meet in the afternoon to ascertain and count the electoral votes related to the presidential election.

Coffman admitted in the plea agreement that he exited the pickup truck at 9:20 a.m. and walked in the direction of the U.S. Capitol Building, and towards a rally near the National Mall. Inside the pickup truck were several loaded firearms within arms-reach of the driver’s seat, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, a crossbow with bolts, machetes, camouflage smoke devices, a stun gun and a cooler containing 11 mason jars filled with ignitable ingredients for Molotov cocktail incendiary weapons... Coffman also carried a loaded handgun and a loaded revolver as he walked around the area that day."

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/alabama- ... s-offenses

Obviously this old man isn't very bright.

bpatus297 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

That is saying vaccine misinformation is causing that. I am asking about how election misinformation, specifically related to 01/06 since this is what we are discussing. is causing hundred of thousands of deaths? Also, in my opinion, if you were to actually go talk to some of these folks that you seem to have such a disdain for, you would be surprised that you are not that much different than each other.

The vaccine misinformation is from the same people that denied the election. The same issue pervades the republican party currently. Misinformation and lies for a political advantage.
It isn't that these people are different. It is that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. They don't know what reality is anymore about the election or covid. They live in an echo chamber of misinformation, and it allows bad decisions to be made. Decisions that have cost lives, and could cost us the very democracy upon which we all value.

Regardless, 01/06 did not cause hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths.

That is like saying the egg caused the other egg to break. They came from the same Chicken(Lies).

Those issues are part if the same
Phenomenon, and the guilt lies squarely and surely on the far right wing ie. the republicans.

bpatus297 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

That is saying vaccine misinformation is causing that. I am asking about how election misinformation, specifically related to 01/06 since this is what we are discussing. is causing hundred of thousands of deaths? Also, in my opinion, if you were to actually go talk to some of these folks that you seem to have such a disdain for, you would be surprised that you are not that much different than each other.

The vaccine misinformation is from the same people that denied the election. The same issue pervades the republican party currently. Misinformation and lies for a political advantage.
It isn't that these people are different. It is that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. They don't know what reality is anymore about the election or covid. They live in an echo chamber of misinformation, and it allows bad decisions to be made. Decisions that have cost lives, and could cost us the very democracy upon which we all value.

Regardless, 01/06 did not cause hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths.

Discuss the topic, not other users. Please see forum rules.

M564038 wrote:

Those issues are part if the same
Phenomenon, and the guilt lies squarely and surely on the far right wing ie. the republicans.

bpatus297 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

The vaccine misinformation is from the same people that denied the election. The same issue pervades the republican party currently. Misinformation and lies for a political advantage.
It isn't that these people are different. It is that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. They don't know what reality is anymore about the election or covid. They live in an echo chamber of misinformation, and it allows bad decisions to be made. Decisions that have cost lives, and could cost us the very democracy upon which we all value.

Regardless, 01/06 did not cause hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths.

I thin that is quite the stretch to say that 01/06 was the cause of those Covid deaths. Yes vaccine misinformation has caused deaths. The US death toll from Covid stands at just under 900K. The vax was approved for use in December, but didn't really hit mainstream inoculation until several months later. I just don't see how the misinformation could have caused "hundreds of thousands" of deaths.

bpatus297 wrote:

M564038 wrote:

Those issues are part if the same
Phenomenon, and the guilt lies squarely and surely on the far right wing ie. the republicans.

bpatus297 wrote:

Regardless, 01/06 did not cause hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths.

I thin that is quite the stretch to say that 01/06 was the cause of those Covid deaths. Yes vaccine misinformation has caused deaths. The US death toll from Covid stands at just under 900K. The vax was approved for use in December, but didn't really hit mainstream inoculation until several months later. I just don't see how the misinformation could have caused "hundreds of thousands" of deaths.

It is because you are misremembering the thread and where this started.

It didn;t stop on Jan 6. We still have Right wing sites and politicians working to subvert elections. The whole issue leading to Jan 6 is still there, and it is depriving millions of a good and effective government.

I separated my quote from below to show where we started.

Just the misinformation itself coming out of the Right wing has led to hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.

I just saw some news stories that seem to come out that says there were fake Republican electors. One reporter asked an elector from whom he got the phone call and where did he go and the 'gentleman' was evasive in both the answers. He claims he doesn't know. The gentleman's name is Jake Hoffman and he is the republican representative from Arizona. If he didn't sign forged documents, why is he being so evasive? Can somebody forget signing up for elector duties and not knowing who made the phone call and whatnot? And these are people who are supposed to make laws. Sadly, nothing but falsehoods.

I would welcome if somebody can explain it. This is just like Boris Johnson bringing booze to the party and saying I thought it was a work-event when his secretary invited 100 people and even though rules specified for UK that you cannot have people from other households.

It seems RW whether it is in U.S. . UK or India they are cut from the same cloth. They only know to speak lies.

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.

- attributed to Josef Goebbels

Seems to have worked on many of those who wanted a different result from the 2020 US presidential election.

cairns wrote:

Name one person who's been charged with "insurrection".

Here’s 11 charged with seditious conspiracy

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/13/politics ... index.html

Not quite insurrection, but it might be time to start looking for a talking point beyond “just a protest that got out of hand”


Also because it’s been a separate talking point in this thread, they may not have carried guns in with them, but they certainly were prepared.

https://www.emptywheel.net/2021/07/04/o ... ion-force/

If anyone honestly thinks this was a “protest that got out of hand” bring your American passport to the nearest trash can and throw it in, because you don’t deserve to be an American anymore. Support your country over your party

bpatus297 wrote:

Aaron747 wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

You didn't, but your comments insinuate it. .

Nope - what I was speaking to is totally unrelated to videos. But thanks for assuming.

So you weren't talking about the videos being deleted as part of a conspiracy?

Negative. Was talking about the narrative from Bannon et al that because some of the rioters were invited in, that's proof that the whole thing was an FBI setup. It's malign crazy talk intended to stoke division.

bpatus297 wrote:

M564038 wrote:

Those issues are part if the same
Phenomenon, and the guilt lies squarely and surely on the far right wing ie. the republicans.

bpatus297 wrote:

Regardless, 01/06 did not cause hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths.

I thin that is quite the stretch to say that 01/06 was the cause of those Covid deaths. Yes vaccine misinformation has caused deaths. The US death toll from Covid stands at just under 900K. The vax was approved for use in December, but didn't really hit mainstream inoculation until several months later. I just don't see how the misinformation could have caused "hundreds of thousands" of deaths.

Misinformation was popularized by the previous WH and its media hangers-on and continued until POTUS's health scare.

https://doggett.house.gov/media-center/ ... -responses

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/187 ... -covid-19/

bpatus297 wrote:

victrola wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

I don't support Trump. Just because I have some conservative views you think I support him? I have never once claimed I supported Trump. I consider myself a conservative leaning libertarian, and not a Republican, not that it matters. You are obviously seeing Republicans though a biased lens, and lumping everyone who doesn't support your views in the same boat. This is what I believe to be a huge part of the problem in the country today. Everyone wants to lump everyone else into the us vs them. Every person I know has unique beliefs and don't necessarily fit nicely into any one category.

Ok, I will take your word that you don't support Trump, Who did you vote for President in 2020? Who will you vote for in 2024 if the choice is between Biden and Trump? I will always put support for democracy and the rule of law ahead of my positions on the issues of the day. If someone like Liz Cheney or Adam Kinzinger were to be elected President, although I probably disagree with almost all of their political positions, I would not be concerned about the future of democracy in this country with them in office. Although I disagree with them, I recognize that they believe in democracy and the rule of law. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Republicans believe that anyone who doesn't support their agenda is an existential threat to the United States and they should be stopped by ANY means possible. The Republican party today has nothing but contempt for democracy and the rule of law. In the next election, you will probably have to make a choice between someone who holds your political views but has contempt for democracy and the rule of law, or someone who has political views that you disagree with but have respect for democracy and the rule of law. What will you choose?

FGITD wrote:

If anyone honestly thinks this was a “protest that got out of hand” bring your American passport to the nearest trash can and throw it in, because you don’t deserve to be an American anymore. Support your country over your party

You’re presuming that they have passports. An insanely low percentage of US Citizens have a passport.

art wrote:

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.

- attributed to Josef Goebbels

Seems to have worked on many of those who wanted a different result from the 2020 US presidential election.

Getting boring isn’t it? Most of those on here, like in the US generally pushing the nonsense and false equivalence know full well how how silly it is and the sinister people behind it.
Comparing as above this event with Pearl Harbor should remind that those behind it 1/6 see the signing of the (now being gutted) Civil Rights Act as the real dark day, others a century before, hence all the traitors flags of the defeated Confederacy, (those that weren’t swastikas and other far right/death cult symbols), never have any answers do they?

That’s who they are. Like those stats on the diagram above, 1/6 can also be seen as the attempt of an endgame after a half a century of the ‘Southern Strategy’ of racial animus politics then voter suppression.
Deeply dishonest and as risible as those who say Bush did 9/11, the whole gamut, from fake planes, secret landings, charges in the towers etc.
Should be treated with the same contempt but this time a defeated, incompetent one term loser, (to use a favorite term of his) and much of the party he has taken over is pushing it,(mostly backed by the party of course).

victrola wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

This isn't over by any means. The vast majority of Republicans still believe strongly that the election was stolen. Trump continues his delusional rants and people like you still support him. Poll workers are receiving death threats and being hounded out of office, New election officials who support Trump's big lie are being put in place and preparations are being made to make sure that the next putsch will be successful. Moderate Republicans are retiring from office. People like Marjorie Taylor Green, Jim Jordan and Madison Cawthorn are now the Republican mainstream, These people have contempt for the truth, democracy, and the rule of law.

You’re right. It’s probably not over. With posts like this, it’s no wonder. Keep swinging that broad brush. It’s worked so well for the last 20 years or so. Keep calling people racist because of who they vote for. Keep claiming a president is illegitimate because he/she isn’t from your party. Keep burning businesses as if it’s somehow justified. Want a trigger for what happened at the Capital? The last 20 years was it.

None of this behavior is justified on either side and if it doesn’t stop, it will get far worse. Far as I can tell, it’s certainly not getting better right now. One only needs to read this thread or just watch the news. Everyone needs to go down the hall and take a good long look at that bathroom mirror. Then take a damn shower because if your still tossing stones and painting people with broad brushes, you need one.

DL717 wrote:

victrola wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

This isn't over by any means. The vast majority of Republicans still believe strongly that the election was stolen. Trump continues his delusional rants and people like you still support him. Poll workers are receiving death threats and being hounded out of office, New election officials who support Trump's big lie are being put in place and preparations are being made to make sure that the next putsch will be successful. Moderate Republicans are retiring from office. People like Marjorie Taylor Green, Jim Jordan and Madison Cawthorn are now the Republican mainstream, These people have contempt for the truth, democracy, and the rule of law.

You’re right. It’s probably not over. With posts like this, it’s no wonder. Keep swinging that broad brush. It’s worked so well for the last 20 years or so. Keep calling people racist because of who they vote for. Keep claiming a president is illegitimate because he/she isn’t from your party. Keep burning businesses as if it’s somehow justified. Want a trigger for what happened at the Capital? The last 20 years was it.

None of this behavior is justified on either side and if it doesn’t stop, it will get far worse. Far as I can tell, it’s certainly not getting better right now. One only needs to read this thread or just watch the news. Everyone needs to go down the hall and take a good long look at that bathroom mirror. Then take a damn shower because if your still tossing stones and painting people with broad brushes, you need one.

What's wrong with his post. All verifiable facts. It isn't mud slinging to put out uncomfortable truths. You are projecting things in your post that were not in the previous post. You are also blaming bad actions at the Capitol on the previous 20 years? That doesn't make sense.

DL717 wrote:

Keep claiming a president is illegitimate because he/she isn’t from your party. Keep burning businesses as if it’s somehow justified.

Oh, these again.

Cries of Trump illegitimacy were not about his party, but about his dubious loans from Russia, Azerbaijan, and wherever else. Not to mention tacit support for 9/11 conspiracy and other nonsense unbecoming a POTUS candidate. Virtually nobody would claim illegitimacy if a Liz Cheney or Tim Scott won the election.

As for the rioting, it's pretty sad to still not be able to tell the difference between opportunistic psycho anarchists and actual demonstrators. Same deal with 1/6, in a sense.

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

victrola wrote:

This isn't over by any means. The vast majority of Republicans still believe strongly that the election was stolen. Trump continues his delusional rants and people like you still support him. Poll workers are receiving death threats and being hounded out of office, New election officials who support Trump's big lie are being put in place and preparations are being made to make sure that the next putsch will be successful. Moderate Republicans are retiring from office. People like Marjorie Taylor Green, Jim Jordan and Madison Cawthorn are now the Republican mainstream, These people have contempt for the truth, democracy, and the rule of law.

You’re right. It’s probably not over. With posts like this, it’s no wonder. Keep swinging that broad brush. It’s worked so well for the last 20 years or so. Keep calling people racist because of who they vote for. Keep claiming a president is illegitimate because he/she isn’t from your party. Keep burning businesses as if it’s somehow justified. Want a trigger for what happened at the Capital? The last 20 years was it.

None of this behavior is justified on either side and if it doesn’t stop, it will get far worse. Far as I can tell, it’s certainly not getting better right now. One only needs to read this thread or just watch the news. Everyone needs to go down the hall and take a good long look at that bathroom mirror. Then take a damn shower because if your still tossing stones and painting people with broad brushes, you need one.

What's wrong with his post. All verifiable facts. It isn't mud slinging to put out uncomfortable truths. You are projecting things in your post that were not in the previous post. You are also blaming bad actions at the Capitol on the previous 20 years? That doesn't make sense.

Doesn’t make sense? Really? Gonna go with that?

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

You’re right. It’s probably not over. With posts like this, it’s no wonder. Keep swinging that broad brush. It’s worked so well for the last 20 years or so. Keep calling people racist because of who they vote for. Keep claiming a president is illegitimate because he/she isn’t from your party. Keep burning businesses as if it’s somehow justified. Want a trigger for what happened at the Capital? The last 20 years was it.

None of this behavior is justified on either side and if it doesn’t stop, it will get far worse. Far as I can tell, it’s certainly not getting better right now. One only needs to read this thread or just watch the news. Everyone needs to go down the hall and take a good long look at that bathroom mirror. Then take a damn shower because if your still tossing stones and painting people with broad brushes, you need one.

What's wrong with his post. All verifiable facts. It isn't mud slinging to put out uncomfortable truths. You are projecting things in your post that were not in the previous post. You are also blaming bad actions at the Capitol on the previous 20 years? That doesn't make sense.

Doesn’t make sense? Really? Gonna go with that?

Yes. Because what i see is the same Trump MAGA post. "Don't blame me for what I did , when I can blame you for other stuff" .

Trump caused Jan 6. He lied leading into the election. Got help with the lie. Got help with staging an attempted attack on democracy, and then you want to blame the last 20 years?
No. It doesn't work like that.

casinterest wrote:

Trump caused Jan 6. He lied leading into the election. Got help with the lie. Got help with staging an attempted attack on democracy, and then you want to blame the last 20 years?
No. It doesn't work like that.

We need look no further than how he's flipping out over the progress the bipartisan House 1/6 committee is making with depositions.

Aaron747 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Trump caused Jan 6. He lied leading into the election. Got help with the lie. Got help with staging an attempted attack on democracy, and then you want to blame the last 20 years?
No. It doesn't work like that.

We need look no further than how he's flipping out over the progress the bipartisan House 1/6 committee is making with depositions.

I think yesterday scared them a lot more when the sedition charges for the Oath Keepers finally arrived. They have videos and images of those guys moving guns through hotels on Jan 7m, and an admission they were in the hotels waiting to be called in.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zo ... itol-riots

Mark Grods pleaded guilty on Wednesday afternoon to two felony counts for conspiracy and obstructing Congress. Grods confirmed the government’s long-standing allegation that members of the Oath Keepers who came to Washington, DC, to oppose Congress’s certification of the election were prepared for violence and arranged to store firearms outside of the city that could be brought in on short notice.

Just remember, this case has been built over the last year, and keeps building.

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

What's wrong with his post. All verifiable facts. It isn't mud slinging to put out uncomfortable truths. You are projecting things in your post that were not in the previous post. You are also blaming bad actions at the Capitol on the previous 20 years? That doesn't make sense.

Doesn’t make sense? Really? Gonna go with that?

Yes. Because what i see is the same Trump MAGA post. "Don't blame me for what I did , when I can blame you for other stuff" .

Trump caused Jan 6. He lied leading into the election. Got help with the lie. Got help with staging an attempted attack on democracy, and then you want to blame the last 20 years?
No. It doesn't work like that.

Remember when Bush won and he was illegitimate?
Remember when he won again and was still illegitimate?
Remember when Obama won and if you don’t vote for him you were a racist?
Remember when he won again and if you didn’t vote for him you were still a racist?
Remember when Trump won and he stole the election from Hillary with help from the Russians?

War, riots, belittling, finger pointing, broad brushes, personal insults day in and day out because of who you voted for…

Yeah. Nothing to see here for the last 20 years. Nothing at all.

Things build over time. Trump threw another log on the fire and it inevitably boiled over.

So as I said, people need to look in the mirror. Take stock of their own actions, then take a shower. Everyone who stoked the fire is to blame.

DL717 wrote:

Things build over time. Trump threw another log on the fire and it inevitably boiled over.

Sure, for the emotionally immature, things build over time. Tell us something we don't know.

casinterest wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... death-rate

That is saying vaccine misinformation is causing that. I am asking about how election misinformation, specifically related to 01/06 since this is what we are discussing. is causing hundred of thousands of deaths? Also, in my opinion, if you were to actually go talk to some of these folks that you seem to have such a disdain for, you would be surprised that you are not that much different than each other.

The vaccine misinformation is from the same people that denied the election. The same issue pervades the republican party currently. Misinformation and lies for a political advantage.
It isn't that these people are different. It is that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. They don't know what reality is anymore about the election or covid. They live in an echo chamber of misinformation, and it allows bad decisions to be made. Decisions that have cost lives, and could cost us the very democracy upon which we all value.

While you have Jim Jordan and Rand Paul most critical of the Biden government approach of handling covid, I don't think vaccine misinformation dissemination is rooted by the same people that denied the election. A lot of naturopaths and people in the wellness business like Joseph Mercola and Robert Kennedy Jr, had no opinion on 1/6 or Biden's confirmation. Also, the Republicans like Rand Paul tend to not to state they are anti covid-vax as these were Trump's vaccines, but go on about anti-masking and natural immunity (over boosters), trying to find round about points to fault Fauci but not directly take aim on the points that the anti-vaxxers are making. It's nuanced, but you don't directly see and hear Paul stating these vaccines are unsafe. Instead, he objects to masking and mandates and why the CDC isn't looking more into natural immunity.

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

Doesn’t make sense? Really? Gonna go with that?

Yes. Because what i see is the same Trump MAGA post. "Don't blame me for what I did , when I can blame you for other stuff" .

Trump caused Jan 6. He lied leading into the election. Got help with the lie. Got help with staging an attempted attack on democracy, and then you want to blame the last 20 years?
No. It doesn't work like that.

Remember when Bush won and he was illegitimate?
Remember when he won again and was still illegitimate?
Remember when Obama won and if you don’t vote for him you were a racist?
Remember when he won again and if you didn’t vote for him you were still a racist?
Remember when Trump won and he stole the election from Hillary with help from the Russians?

War, riots, belittling, finger pointing, broad brushes, personal insults day in and day out because of who you voted for…

Yeah. Nothing to see here for the last 20 years. Nothing at all.

Things build over time. Trump threw another log on the fire and it inevitably boiled over.

So as I said, people need to look in the mirror. Take stock of their own actions, then take a shower. Everyone who stoked the fire is to blame.

I just see a lot of misinformed Fox talking points here. There are a lot more nuances to being unhappy with elections compared to downright lying and abusing the US electoral system. The difference in all your cases, is that people didn't blame democracy. They took issue with misinformation.

Trump's log is one of pure abuse of American Democracy.

phluser wrote:

casinterest wrote:

bpatus297 wrote:

That is saying vaccine misinformation is causing that. I am asking about how election misinformation, specifically related to 01/06 since this is what we are discussing. is causing hundred of thousands of deaths? Also, in my opinion, if you were to actually go talk to some of these folks that you seem to have such a disdain for, you would be surprised that you are not that much different than each other.

The vaccine misinformation is from the same people that denied the election. The same issue pervades the republican party currently. Misinformation and lies for a political advantage.
It isn't that these people are different. It is that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed. They don't know what reality is anymore about the election or covid. They live in an echo chamber of misinformation, and it allows bad decisions to be made. Decisions that have cost lives, and could cost us the very democracy upon which we all value.

While you have Jim Jordan and Rand Paul most critical of the Biden government approach of handling covid, I don't think vaccine misinformation dissemination is rooted by the same people that denied the election. A lot of naturopaths and people in the wellness business like Joseph Mercola and Robert Kennedy Jr, had no opinion on 1/6 or Biden's confirmation. Also, the Republicans like Rand Paul tend to not to state they are anti covid-vax as these were Trump's vaccines, but go on about anti-masking and natural immunity (over boosters), trying to find round about points to fault Fauci but not directly take aim on the points that the anti-vaxxers are making. It's nuanced, but you don't directly see and hear Paul stating these vaccines are unsafe. Instead, he objects to masking and mandates and why the CDC isn't looking more into natural immunity.

I disagree. The Pandemic and Vaccines were all taken as an anti-science argument by the GOP and pushed by the same side of the coin that pushes misinformation about voting. There are GOP members that still believe in Conservative Government, but the litmus test for being a GOP member now includes denying democracy, and attacking the vaccines and masking that could save lives.

Remember when Bush won and he was illegitimate?
Remember when he won again and was still illegitimate?
Remember when Obama won and if you don’t vote for him you were a racist?
Remember when he won again and if you didn’t vote for him you were still a racist?
Remember when Trump won and he stole the election from Hillary with help from the Russians?

War, riots, belittling, finger pointing, broad brushes, personal insults day in and day out because of who you voted for…

Yeah. Nothing to see here for the last 20 years. Nothing at all.

Things build over time. Trump threw another log on the fire and it inevitably boiled over.

So as I said, people need to look in the mirror. Take stock of their own actions, then take a shower. Everyone who stoked the fire is to blame.[/quote]


Complete false equivalence. You have no sense of proportion. As I recall When Bush won the first time Gore gave a gracious concession speech. When Bush won again Kerry gave a gracious concession speech. When Trump won, Hillary gave a gracious concession speech. A few people might have grumbled, however there was absolutely no campaign by mainstream Democrats to delegitimize these elections. Please show me one piece of data where 70% of Democrats believed that Hillary won, Yet 70% of Republicans today believe the lie that Trump won. We are still waiting for the gracious concession speech from Trump. Where the hell is it??? We are still waiting for the bulk of the bulk of the Republican party to admit that Biden won. Whether you believe it or not, Biden won and anyone who refuses to believe that FACT is too delusional to hold political office. The fact that the vast majority of Republicans in Congress today continues to promote the big lie demonstrates their contempt for democracy and the rule of law.

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Yes. Because what i see is the same Trump MAGA post. "Don't blame me for what I did , when I can blame you for other stuff" .

Trump caused Jan 6. He lied leading into the election. Got help with the lie. Got help with staging an attempted attack on democracy, and then you want to blame the last 20 years?
No. It doesn't work like that.

Remember when Bush won and he was illegitimate?
Remember when he won again and was still illegitimate?
Remember when Obama won and if you don’t vote for him you were a racist?
Remember when he won again and if you didn’t vote for him you were still a racist?
Remember when Trump won and he stole the election from Hillary with help from the Russians?

War, riots, belittling, finger pointing, broad brushes, personal insults day in and day out because of who you voted for…

Yeah. Nothing to see here for the last 20 years. Nothing at all.

Things build over time. Trump threw another log on the fire and it inevitably boiled over.

So as I said, people need to look in the mirror. Take stock of their own actions, then take a shower. Everyone who stoked the fire is to blame.

I just see a lot of misinformed Fox talking points here. There are a lot more nuances to being unhappy with elections compared to downright lying and abusing the US electoral system. The difference in all your cases, is that people didn't blame democracy. They took issue with misinformation.

Trump's log is one of pure abuse of American Democracy.

Good thing it boiled over finally. The results were ugly, but it usually puts the fire out for a while. That is until someone keeps putting more logs on it by calling people childish names and pretending there is only one side to the problem and that history doesn’t matter.

One scerwed up guy who screws with everybody

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho ... sna1276841

Can anybody rationally figure out why Mr. Trump had decided to invite Taliban leaders and that too around 9/11? Add to that, even after the U.S. left Taliban even today don't have legitimacy over Afghanistan. And he actually wanted to invite them to white house

pune wrote:

One scerwed up guy who screws with everybody

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho ... sna1276841

Can anybody rationally figure out why Mr. Trump had decided to invite Taliban leaders and that too around 9/11? Add to that, even after the U.S. left Taliban even today don't have legitimacy over Afghanistan. And he actually wanted to invite them to white house

He was tone deaf. For the media to think Republicans will allow him to be a candidate again is also being tone deaf. But hey, what ever drives ad revenue and campaign contributions.

DL717 wrote:

He was tone deaf. For the media to think Republicans will allow him to be a candidate again is also being tone deaf.

Er... how do they stop him? Who defeats Trump in a primary? Believe me, I'd like it just as much as you, but I don't see any mechanism for it at this early stage, barring Trump himself falling too ill/infirm between now and 2024.

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

Remember when Bush won and he was illegitimate?
Remember when he won again and was still illegitimate?
Remember when Obama won and if you don’t vote for him you were a racist?
Remember when he won again and if you didn’t vote for him you were still a racist?
Remember when Trump won and he stole the election from Hillary with help from the Russians?

War, riots, belittling, finger pointing, broad brushes, personal insults day in and day out because of who you voted for…

Yeah. Nothing to see here for the last 20 years. Nothing at all.

Things build over time. Trump threw another log on the fire and it inevitably boiled over.

So as I said, people need to look in the mirror. Take stock of their own actions, then take a shower. Everyone who stoked the fire is to blame.

I just see a lot of misinformed Fox talking points here. There are a lot more nuances to being unhappy with elections compared to downright lying and abusing the US electoral system. The difference in all your cases, is that people didn't blame democracy. They took issue with misinformation.

Trump's log is one of pure abuse of American Democracy.

Good thing it boiled over finally. The results were ugly, but it usually puts the fire out for a while. That is until someone keeps putting more logs on it by calling people childish names and pretending there is only one side to the problem and that history doesn’t matter.

Republicans have been adding fuel to the fire since the 1/6 right wing domestic terror attack. Calling those arrested "political prisoners" and Ashli Babbet a martyr and continuing to scream the election was stolen and the droan of "FJB" and "Brandon" and complaining about cancel culture and CRT and making law after law to restrict voting.....

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

Remember when Bush won and he was illegitimate?
Remember when he won again and was still illegitimate?
Remember when Obama won and if you don’t vote for him you were a racist?
Remember when he won again and if you didn’t vote for him you were still a racist?
Remember when Trump won and he stole the election from Hillary with help from the Russians?

War, riots, belittling, finger pointing, broad brushes, personal insults day in and day out because of who you voted for…

Yeah. Nothing to see here for the last 20 years. Nothing at all.

Things build over time. Trump threw another log on the fire and it inevitably boiled over.

So as I said, people need to look in the mirror. Take stock of their own actions, then take a shower. Everyone who stoked the fire is to blame.

I just see a lot of misinformed Fox talking points here. There are a lot more nuances to being unhappy with elections compared to downright lying and abusing the US electoral system. The difference in all your cases, is that people didn't blame democracy. They took issue with misinformation.

Trump's log is one of pure abuse of American Democracy.

Good thing it boiled over finally. The results were ugly, but it usually puts the fire out for a while. That is until someone keeps putting more logs on it by calling people childish names and pretending there is only one side to the problem and that history doesn’t matter.

Let me get this straight. . The Republicans have abandoned science(vaccines), bought into lies about the election960-80% still think it was stolen), support right wing media sites that daily denigrate liberals and anyone that isn't a "TRUE" Republican, uses middle school rhetoric on the president, and then you think there is a both sides to the issue?

DL717 wrote:

He was tone deaf. For the media to think Republicans will allow him to be a candidate again is also being tone deaf. But hey, what ever drives ad revenue and campaign contributions.

It's not just that. The GOP members congress had an opportunity to disassociate themselves from Trump once and for all, and they didn't have the balls to do that following the1/6 events. They share the bulk of the culpability.

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

I just see a lot of misinformed Fox talking points here. There are a lot more nuances to being unhappy with elections compared to downright lying and abusing the US electoral system. The difference in all your cases, is that people didn't blame democracy. They took issue with misinformation.

Trump's log is one of pure abuse of American Democracy.

Good thing it boiled over finally. The results were ugly, but it usually puts the fire out for a while. That is until someone keeps putting more logs on it by calling people childish names and pretending there is only one side to the problem and that history doesn’t matter.

Let me get this straight. . The Republicans have abandoned science(vaccines), bought into lies about the election960-80% still think it was stolen), support right wing media sites that daily denigrate liberals and anyone that isn't a "TRUE" Republican, uses middle school rhetoric on the president, and then you think there is a both sides to the issue?

Quite the sweeping brush you have there.

And yes. There is a both sides to the issue.

There isn’t two sides to it.
The democrats represent pretty much the entire political spectrum from left to right within most democratic countries. The republicans represent values that are found only in far right banana republics and dictatorships.

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

Good thing it boiled over finally. The results were ugly, but it usually puts the fire out for a while. That is until someone keeps putting more logs on it by calling people childish names and pretending there is only one side to the problem and that history doesn’t matter.

Let me get this straight. . The Republicans have abandoned science(vaccines), bought into lies about the election960-80% still think it was stolen), support right wing media sites that daily denigrate liberals and anyone that isn't a "TRUE" Republican, uses middle school rhetoric on the president, and then you think there is a both sides to the issue?

Quite the sweeping brush you have there.

And yes. There is a both sides to the issue.

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

DL717 wrote:

Good thing it boiled over finally. The results were ugly, but it usually puts the fire out for a while. That is until someone keeps putting more logs on it by calling people childish names and pretending there is only one side to the problem and that history doesn’t matter.

Let me get this straight. . The Republicans have abandoned science(vaccines), bought into lies about the election960-80% still think it was stolen), support right wing media sites that daily denigrate liberals and anyone that isn't a "TRUE" Republican, uses middle school rhetoric on the president, and then you think there is a both sides to the issue?

Quite the sweeping brush you have there.

And yes. There is a both sides to the issue.

How many armed "liberals" have stormed the capital demanding their candidate be installed as leader? How many "liberals" demand their leader is the only leader everyone must follow no matter what?
How many "liberals" demanded Electoral College voters be switched out so their candidate can win? This is not "both sides do it" by any means. Your side does not get a pass just because people whine "both sides do it". This was a domestic terror attack. This was an attempted coup. The right wing terrorists wanted to execute Mike Pence for following the Constitution.

seb146 wrote:

DL717 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Let me get this straight. . The Republicans have abandoned science(vaccines), bought into lies about the election960-80% still think it was stolen), support right wing media sites that daily denigrate liberals and anyone that isn't a "TRUE" Republican, uses middle school rhetoric on the president, and then you think there is a both sides to the issue?

Quite the sweeping brush you have there.

And yes. There is a both sides to the issue.

How many armed "liberals" have stormed the capital demanding their candidate be installed as leader? How many "liberals" demand their leader is the only leader everyone must follow no matter what?
How many "liberals" demanded Electoral College voters be switched out so their candidate can win? This is not "both sides do it" by any means. Your side does not get a pass just because people whine "both sides do it". This was a domestic terror attack. This was an attempted coup. The right wing terrorists wanted to execute Mike Pence for following the Constitution.

It was an insurrection that Trump and his supporters attempted. Last night in his Arizona "rally" Trump attacked and insulted the police officers that were tasked with defending the capitol from the Mob that was unleashed.

The lies are going to continue from Trump and his supporters. There is no "both sides" when it is an attack on the United States of America. .

casinterest wrote:

Last night in his Arizona "rally" Trump attacked and insulted the police officers that were tasked with defending the capitol from the Mob that was unleashed.

I saw that - disgusting is all I can say. This guy really wants to stir the pot further.

I wonder why Trump wanted to shoot the "left wing rioters", yet when "rioters" tried to take over the CAPITOL OF THE UNITED STATES, he verbally attacks the capitol police?

We all know why. He's a traitor.

casinterest wrote:

It was an insurrection that Trump and his supporters attempted. Last night in his Arizona "rally" Trump attacked and insulted the police officers that were tasked with defending the capitol from the Mob that was unleashed.

The lies are going to continue from Trump and his supporters. There is no "both sides" when it is an attack on the United States of America. .

For all intents the USA shouldn't be considered one united nation anymore. There is one side there who's goals are now incompatible with remaining in a civilised nation, further fracturing and conflict is inevitable.

sierrakilo44 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

It was an insurrection that Trump and his supporters attempted. Last night in his Arizona "rally" Trump attacked and insulted the police officers that were tasked with defending the capitol from the Mob that was unleashed.

The lies are going to continue from Trump and his supporters. There is no "both sides" when it is an attack on the United States of America. .

For all intents the USA shouldn't be considered one united nation anymore. There is one side there who's goals are now incompatible with remaining in a civilised nation, further fracturing and conflict is inevitable.

It's still one nation. Unfortunately we have a party that wants to lead by lies, fraud and abuse. The true test will be if voters are able to reject this party as the truth of their hypocrisy and ignorance spreads.

These forums are not to be used to post COVID misinformation. Posting such nonsense will result in immediate bans. Thank you!

casinterest wrote:

sierrakilo44 wrote:

casinterest wrote:

It was an insurrection that Trump and his supporters attempted. Last night in his Arizona "rally" Trump attacked and insulted the police officers that were tasked with defending the capitol from the Mob that was unleashed.

The lies are going to continue from Trump and his supporters. There is no "both sides" when it is an attack on the United States of America. .

For all intents the USA shouldn't be considered one united nation anymore. There is one side there who's goals are now incompatible with remaining in a civilised nation, further fracturing and conflict is inevitable.

It's still one nation. Unfortunately we have a party that wants to lead by lies, fraud and abuse. The true test will be if voters are able to reject this party as the truth of their hypocrisy and ignorance spreads.

The US has 2 parties lead by lies, fraud and abuse - nothing will change until someone has the courage to actually bring up congressional term limits.

The US has 2 parties lead by lies, fraud and abuse - nothing will change until someone has the courage to actually bring up congressional term limits.[/quote]

Are you kidding? Term limits will do absolutely nothing to curb the anti-democratic tendencies of the Republican party. The likes of Marjorie Taylor Green, Jim Jordan, and the rest of these extremists will be replaced by people just as bad or even worse. The lies, fraud and abuse are coming from one party today. The Republicans.
I'm sick of the Republican excuse "they all do it". Almost every Republican in Congress continues to promote the lie that the election was stolen by Trump. Over 70% of Republicans believe this rubbish. Republicans remain silent while election officials are being intimidated and hounded out of office all over the red states. After what were considered experts to be free and fair elections, Republicans continue to insist that this country has a serious problem with election integrity. This is a lie. Meanwhile we see Republican legislation all over the country to make it harder for American citizens to vote. Republicans hate and fear every American citizen having convenient access to their right to vote. They saw the numbers. Biden kicked Trump's ass by over 6 million votes. They have to restrict voting to remain in power.

bourbon wrote:

casinterest wrote:

sierrakilo44 wrote:

For all intents the USA shouldn't be considered one united nation anymore. There is one side there who's goals are now incompatible with remaining in a civilised nation, further fracturing and conflict is inevitable.

It's still one nation. Unfortunately we have a party that wants to lead by lies, fraud and abuse. The true test will be if voters are able to reject this party as the truth of their hypocrisy and ignorance spreads.

The US has 2 parties lead by lies, fraud and abuse - nothing will change until someone has the courage to actually bring up congressional term limits.

Not in this instance where we are discussing the Capitol Insurrection and the lies that lead to it.
The GOP owns those lies, and they own the lies that they are using to push the voting laws and anti-crt laws that are being put in place.
The GOP is passing bad laws with lies, and it doesn't end well when you go down that path. History has shown that that is usually the first step into very poor government that usually leads to bad outcomes.