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Revelation
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DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:17 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsPmJdlrBiI

Not sure it changed my mind much, but was interesting none the less.

Engine project put in place with half or less the usual amount of time and with the expectation of creating breakthrough technology. No one knows if they can make the targets but all want to give it a go, so they say and do what it takes to get the project launched.

Engineering team is struggling, not even close to reaching emissions target, deadlines are looming. Defeat device is available already for fairly valid reasons, Meetings are called to discuss keeping it in the production code. We really shouldn't do it, but we don't know of any other way we can ship the product without it. It's just going to be in there for six months because by then we'll find those elusive breakthroughs we haven't been able to find for the last two years (?!?).

Engineers later say they didn't expect managers to approve the change, managers say engineers never made it clear it was cheating. In retrospect engineers should have known managers are unethical as hell (and probably did) yet later they knew they could blame the managers. Managers should know when engineers give you something that is too good to be true it probably is, so you better be asking lots of questions.

Once everyone thinks an outcome has been reached, no one questions it. Once it's in, the simplest thing to do is just keep it in. Everyone else in the industry is doing it, right? No one else is facing legal consequences, right? Then, when the next program comes along, they got away with it so why should we hold our self to a higher standard?

I guess the only thing more permanent than a temporary tax is a temporary software fix. Been there, done that.

Engineers sleep well at night, we explained this to the managers, they'll communicate it up the ladder, that's what they're paid for, right? Yet each rung of the ladder gives a somewhat more vague explanation as it moves up the ladder. At some point someone decides it really doesn't have to go any further. The wagons are circled.

Eventually things get too the point where things are getting hot and you gotta cover your backside, so you slip some vaguely worded concern into the CEO's "weekend mail" hoping he either doesn't read it or he doesn't pick up on vaguely worded concerns.

Here's a breakdown of that:

"On 23 May 2014, a memo about the ICCT study was prepared for Martin Winterkorn, then-Chairman of the Management Board of Volkswagen AG," VW stated. "This memo was included in his extensive weekend mail. Whether and to which extent Mr. Winterkorn took notice of this memo at that time is not documented."

VW is referring to the International Council on Clean Transportation study in 2014 that reported nitrogen-oxide outputs for two VW models differed significantly between road-testing cycles and bench-testing cycles. At that point, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) requested an explanation from VW, which resulted in the automaker's offer to recalibrate first- and second-generation EA189 engines in the affected vehicles as part of regular service.

"On 14 Nov. 2014, Mr. Winterkorn received another memo that reported, amongst other things, on several then-current product-defect cases and referred to a cost framework of approximately 20 million euros for the diesel issue in North America," VW says, still uncertain about whether Winterkorn read and understood the implications.

It is worth pointing out that these memos did not likely speculate that the discrepancies resulted from an illegal type of software program that VW installed in the engines, so it is possible that Winterkorn may not have had cause to suspect that was the case.

Ref: https://www.autoweek.com/drives/a181299 ... -cheating/

Eventually some mid level manger whose job involves interfacing with a government agency ends up taking the fall. Mark Forkner, meet Oliver Schmidt.

Media aren't really interested in the minutia of where things got dropped in the management chain, more shades of the MAX tragedy. However, that's where the conspiracy lies, presuming there is one. The bigger they are, the harder they fall, so they go after the CEO. The buck stops there, right?

The CEO drags things out and makes the smallest possible concessions but in the end it's not enough, he's out, yet it's not the end of the world. The company carries insurance so when the inevitable shareholder lawsuit comes the board and the c-suite are mostly in the clear, and have been paid enough over the years that it's small potatoes, they have tens of millions of dollars in the bank. Their class looks after its own.

I had a manager pull the "other projects get away with this unethical thing, why can't we" thing on me. I'm glad I didn't give in even though I got some career damage for it. Once you give an inch, they will take a mile, and in the end you mess up your own value system in ways they don't know or care about.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:56 am

Revelation wrote:
The CEO drags things out and makes the smallest possible concessions but in the end it's not enough, he's out, yet it's not the end of the world. The company carries insurance so when the inevitable shareholder lawsuit comes the board and the c-suite are mostly in the clear, and have been paid enough over the years that it's small potatoes, they have tens of millions of dollars in the bank. Their class looks after its own.


This is precisely why it's always unwise to play their games without having the same level of protection. This should be taught to kids before they graduate - don't shovel shit for others if it smells really bad. It could land you in jail someday.
 
santi319
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:01 am

Kinda off the specific topic mentioned above but somehow a bit on it - that DW Documentary youtube channel is EVERYTHING. They are just sooo good I cannot be more grateful that I discovered it.
 
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:57 pm

santi319 wrote:
Kinda off the specific topic mentioned above but somehow a bit on it - that DW Documentary youtube channel is EVERYTHING. They are just sooo good I cannot be more grateful that I discovered it.

Yes, I like their style, for both technical and non-technical content.

They (or was it WELT, another interesting channel) did a piece on how/why Germany was behind on electric cars. Their main premise was all the German car makers were in love with the huge profit margins they were getting from high polluting SUVs and wanted to keep miking that cash cow. It seemed to be another parallel with Boeing, big fat corporations no longer willing to make the investments to stay in the game, instead happy to eat the seed corn and leave the problem to the next generation.

Of course now Dieselgate has been used by VW as the motivation to re-invent itself and part of that is going full in on electric cars. Merc and BMW, not so much. It'll be fascinating to see how it all turns out.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:57 pm

It sounds like the familiar story of the salesmen making lofty promises that they trust the engineers will deliver. As the goal becomes unreachable and the pressure mounts, the corners start to inevitably get cut and whatever-it-takes-itis sets in. No one wants to be responsible for the company not delivering the goods...

I would have said that at least no one died this time, but someone actually went out and ran the numbers on the human toll of the excess air pollution released. 59 deaths, probably more (ref. Wiki page).


Revelation wrote:
The CEO drags things out and makes the smallest possible concessions but in the end it's not enough, he's out, yet it's not the end of the world. The company carries insurance so when the inevitable shareholder lawsuit comes the board and the c-suite are mostly in the clear, and have been paid enough over the years that it's small potatoes, they have tens of millions of dollars in the bank. Their class looks after its own.


Always the same story with the upper circles. Those who get paid more to assume more responsibility never end up being accountable for said responsibility. The fat cats always land on their feet.
 
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:25 pm

Francoflier wrote:
It sounds like the familiar story of the salesmen making lofty promises that they trust the engineers will deliver. As the goal becomes unreachable and the pressure mounts, the corners start to inevitably get cut and whatever-it-takes-itis sets in. No one wants to be responsible for the company not delivering the goods...

The DW video doesn't really lay it on the sales force, they seem to lay it more on Winterkorn's ambition.

Funny, I was at a BMW dealer expressing interest in their diesels in the late 2000s, and their salesman said something like we can't figure out how VW is doing so well in this segment, we can't meet their numbers without exceeding pollution limits.

Diesel was really popular in the late 90s to late 00s. It was being sold in the US cheaper than premium gasoline and gave better mileage. That has reversed in recent times where diesel is typically priced above premium gasoline.

A friend of mine bought a VW diesel in that time frame and sold it back to them after the scandal and made out like a bandit. He had put a lot of miles on the car and got back a lot of money for it. Keeping it would have come with the new software that made its mileage worse than a gasoline model and the resale market was trash. It was a no brainer decision for him.

Francoflier wrote:
Always the same story with the upper circles. Those who get paid more to assume more responsibility never end up being accountable for said responsibility. The fat cats always land on their feet.

Similar topics have come up in US football recently. The coaches preach accountability to the players, but when the players end up injured they get released, with the team showing little accountability to the players. The teams pay into a pension fund, but it's pennies on the dollar compared to what they keep.
 
cpd
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:54 pm

Revelation wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Kinda off the specific topic mentioned above but somehow a bit on it - that DW Documentary youtube channel is EVERYTHING. They are just sooo good I cannot be more grateful that I discovered it.

Yes, I like their style, for both technical and non-technical content.

They (or was it WELT, another interesting channel) did a piece on how/why Germany was behind on electric cars. Their main premise was all the German car makers were in love with the huge profit margins they were getting from high polluting SUVs and wanted to keep miking that cash cow. It seemed to be another parallel with Boeing, big fat corporations no longer willing to make the investments to stay in the game, instead happy to eat the seed corn and leave the problem to the next generation.

Of course now Dieselgate has been used by VW as the motivation to re-invent itself and part of that is going full in on electric cars. Merc and BMW, not so much. It'll be fascinating to see how it all turns out.


Mercedes is actually full in on electric cars now. And they are pushing the bar more than VW as well. BMW also has some very good electric cars now too.

With dieselgate I heard some of the blame put against Piëch and his management style which was said to be difficult.

Yet I know of others who reckoned he was great to work with when he was at Porsche. He is dead now so I won’t go further. Unlike other executives he at least had proper engineering/machining background as did many of those coming through Porsche KG in the 50s and 60s.

In my work, I won’t accept near enough or work arounds because they always come back to catch you out later. Do it right first time, even if it takes longer otherwise you inevitably have to go back and make changes and then it’s often more difficult.
 
ltbewr
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:11 pm

Part of what happened was to minimally meet the precise US and Euro test standards/cycles of pollution allowed and programing the fuel systems with the vehicles submitted by vehicle makers for it to pass them. Basically vehicle makers like VW submitted rigged cars while production cars didn't meet standards and got away with it for a while. It came out in broader independent testing that production and consumer sold vehicles didn't meet the standard. Some vehicle makers were trying to not have to put in DEF systems or other expensive tech to meet standards and keep executives and shareholders happy.

Dieselgate by VW and other companies has led to a faster shift to PEV's and EV's, diesel engines are no longer offered in many smaller cars and light trucks, way more pollution, Billions in USD, UKP, Euros lost in the cheating that could have better spent on PEV/EV development.
 
pune
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:15 pm

The end of the road is near as far as ICE vehicles. Nobody better than Sandy Munro on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/c/MunroLive

FWIW he had worked with Ford and others so he knows what the legacy automarkers are doing. Last few years he has been taking apart Tesla and other EV vehicles and putting them back together to see what makes them tick and has been a strong proponent of the EV for some years now.

As have shared in an earlier thread carmakers have turned to cheat, this would not be the first or the last, it is a long read. Many a time with people literally losing their lives :( -

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/19 ... o-madness/

FWIW, not even a month has passed since Diamler settled with the Canada pollution board. This story and stories like these are far more complete :(

https://cn.reuters.com/article/daimler- ... NL8N2SV55E
 
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:34 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Part of what happened was to minimally meet the precise US and Euro test standards/cycles of pollution allowed and programing the fuel systems with the vehicles submitted by vehicle makers for it to pass them. Basically vehicle makers like VW submitted rigged cars while production cars didn't meet standards and got away with it for a while. It came out in broader independent testing that production and consumer sold vehicles didn't meet the standard. Some vehicle makers were trying to not have to put in DEF systems or other expensive tech to meet standards and keep executives and shareholders happy.

Dieselgate by VW and other companies has led to a faster shift to PEV's and EV's, diesel engines are no longer offered in many smaller cars and light trucks, way more pollution, Billions in USD, UKP, Euros lost in the cheating that could have better spent on PEV/EV development.

It was interesting to see the participants in the film pushing the point that the rest of the industry was doing it too, whereas the producers pushed back by saying they got singled out for harsh treatment because they initially denied it. The way they report the time line suggests the problem was that internally the c-suite people seem to not have been given the unvarnished truth, and the initial delay was probably due to no one internally wanting to communicate the scope of the problem in clear language to the c-suite.

As above the "weekend mail" memo just said the regulators would be looking for a defeat device without spelling out that there was a defeat device present, and described it as a $20M problem which in reality ended up being a $4B problem. They put this memo in the CEO's briefcase along with a lot of other stuff for him to read over the weekend. This reeks of a conspiracy to be able to later say hey we told him, without facing the career damage that would come from actually telling him. Of course the CEO's version is the memo made no impression on him at the time, implying that he was a victim of a cover up by his underlings.

I will always wonder if the technical people gave Boeing's CEO the unvarnished truth after the first MCAS crash. The company's reaction was to question JT's mechanical and piloting standards. We also know a fix was weeks away from approval when the second crash happened. Reminds me of how the documentary said VW were playing for time. In both cases, time ran out. Were they playing for time because the c-suite wasn't being told of how big the exposure was, or were they playing for time because the c-suite knew how big the exposure was? Everyone has a tale to tell that protects them, except for Forkner and Schmidt. Actually Forkner may yet beat the charges, thanks to an expensive legal team paid for by Boeing.
 
pune
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Part of what happened was to minimally meet the precise US and Euro test standards/cycles of pollution allowed and programing the fuel systems with the vehicles submitted by vehicle makers for it to pass them. Basically vehicle makers like VW submitted rigged cars while production cars didn't meet standards and got away with it for a while. It came out in broader independent testing that production and consumer sold vehicles didn't meet the standard. Some vehicle makers were trying to not have to put in DEF systems or other expensive tech to meet standards and keep executives and shareholders happy.

Dieselgate by VW and other companies has led to a faster shift to PEV's and EV's, diesel engines are no longer offered in many smaller cars and light trucks, way more pollution, Billions in USD, UKP, Euros lost in the cheating that could have better spent on PEV/EV development.

It was interesting to see the participants in the film pushing the point that the rest of the industry was doing it too, whereas the producers pushed back by saying they got singled out for harsh treatment because they initially denied it. The way they report the time line suggests the problem was that internally the c-suite people seem to not have been given the unvarnished truth, and the initial delay was probably due to no one internally wanting to communicate the scope of the problem in clear language to the c-suite.

As above the "weekend mail" memo just said the regulators would be looking for a defeat device without spelling out that there was a defeat device present, and described it as a $20M problem which in reality ended up being a $4B problem. They put this memo in the CEO's briefcase along with a lot of other stuff for him to read over the weekend. This reeks of a conspiracy to be able to later say hey we told him, without facing the career damage that would come from actually telling him. Of course the CEO's version is the memo made no impression on him at the time, implying that he was a victim of a cover up by his underlings.

I will always wonder if the technical people gave Boeing's CEO the unvarnished truth after the first MCAS crash. The company's reaction was to question JT's mechanical and piloting standards. We also know a fix was weeks away from approval when the second crash happened. Reminds me of how the documentary said VW were playing for time. In both cases, time ran out. Were they playing for time because the c-suite wasn't being told of how big the exposure was, or were they playing for time because the c-suite knew how big the exposure was? Everyone has a tale to tell that protects them, except for Forkner and Schmidt. Actually, Forkner may yet beat the charges, thanks to an expensive legal team paid for by Boeing.


I would assume the latter, remember the minutes of the meeting even late in the day 2015 when he sat down with the engine development engineers. Even then he could have saved the day if he wanted to but decided to string people along as much as they can.

Frankly put, if I were a CEO, I probably would do what Mr. Winterkorn did and played as well. I am sure most people who are on this forum are either working or have worked professionally so most probably know that the higher you go up the corporate ladder, the more politics in involved and I mean internal company politics. Now to be 10 years on the top job is not an easy thing. As was alluded in the latter part, I am sure he had his people all over the company. So while he can very well claim legally that he had no knowledge and unless somebody provides some sort of documentary evidence (Boris Johnson partying quiz screenshots comes to mind) it would be he said/they said kinda thing. Even the minutes of the 2015 meeting is somewhat strangely worded and too sparse. The prosecutors have their work cut out to them. Even if people at the highest were found guilty (unless it can be shown that both CEO and the VW management board both knew and deliberately stalled) they would get away. And most people who come to such high positions know better than to have anything written around that could come to bite them later.

How hard can it be when you truly have a vision can be seen from Frank Deiss, 2 years and had his powers cut even though he means well for the group and have been warning them that Tesla and others are being much quicker. Something I just reported/shared in another thread. And it is for that he had his powers curtailed :(

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton ... 4164701d20
 
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:13 pm

pune wrote:
Revelation wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Part of what happened was to minimally meet the precise US and Euro test standards/cycles of pollution allowed and programing the fuel systems with the vehicles submitted by vehicle makers for it to pass them. Basically vehicle makers like VW submitted rigged cars while production cars didn't meet standards and got away with it for a while. It came out in broader independent testing that production and consumer sold vehicles didn't meet the standard. Some vehicle makers were trying to not have to put in DEF systems or other expensive tech to meet standards and keep executives and shareholders happy.

Dieselgate by VW and other companies has led to a faster shift to PEV's and EV's, diesel engines are no longer offered in many smaller cars and light trucks, way more pollution, Billions in USD, UKP, Euros lost in the cheating that could have better spent on PEV/EV development.

It was interesting to see the participants in the film pushing the point that the rest of the industry was doing it too, whereas the producers pushed back by saying they got singled out for harsh treatment because they initially denied it. The way they report the time line suggests the problem was that internally the c-suite people seem to not have been given the unvarnished truth, and the initial delay was probably due to no one internally wanting to communicate the scope of the problem in clear language to the c-suite.

As above the "weekend mail" memo just said the regulators would be looking for a defeat device without spelling out that there was a defeat device present, and described it as a $20M problem which in reality ended up being a $4B problem. They put this memo in the CEO's briefcase along with a lot of other stuff for him to read over the weekend. This reeks of a conspiracy to be able to later say hey we told him, without facing the career damage that would come from actually telling him. Of course the CEO's version is the memo made no impression on him at the time, implying that he was a victim of a cover up by his underlings.

I will always wonder if the technical people gave Boeing's CEO the unvarnished truth after the first MCAS crash. The company's reaction was to question JT's mechanical and piloting standards. We also know a fix was weeks away from approval when the second crash happened. Reminds me of how the documentary said VW were playing for time. In both cases, time ran out. Were they playing for time because the c-suite wasn't being told of how big the exposure was, or were they playing for time because the c-suite knew how big the exposure was? Everyone has a tale to tell that protects them, except for Forkner and Schmidt. Actually, Forkner may yet beat the charges, thanks to an expensive legal team paid for by Boeing.


I would assume the latter, remember the minutes of the meeting even late in the day 2015 when he sat down with the engine development engineers. Even then he could have saved the day if he wanted to but decided to string people along as much as they can.

Frankly put, if I were a CEO, I probably would do what Mr. Winterkorn did and played as well. I am sure most people who are on this forum are either working or have worked professionally so most probably know that the higher you go up the corporate ladder, the more politics in involved and I mean internal company politics. Now to be 10 years on the top job is not an easy thing. As was alluded in the latter part, I am sure he had his people all over the company. So while he can very well claim legally that he had no knowledge and unless somebody provides some sort of documentary evidence (Boris Johnson partying quiz screenshots comes to mind) it would be he said/they said kinda thing. Even the minutes of the 2015 meeting is somewhat strangely worded and too sparse. The prosecutors have their work cut out to them. Even if people at the highest were found guilty (unless it can be shown that both CEO and the VW management board both knew and deliberately stalled) they would get away. And most people who come to such high positions know better than to have anything written around that could come to bite them later.

How hard can it be when you truly have a vision can be seen from Frank Deiss, 2 years and had his powers cut even though he means well for the group and have been warning them that Tesla and others are being much quicker. Something I just reported/shared in another thread. And it is for that he had his powers curtailed :(

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton ... 4164701d20

I appreciate your posts, especially the points in this one about about politics and networking.

I appreciate the efforts still being made to get to the bottom of what happened all these years later.

Meanwhile, Boeing has been given a few hundred million dollar fine (the rest was money it already agreed to pay) and it'll probably be 20 years before we know more about what actually went on, if ever.
 
pune
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:29 pm

Revelation wrote:
pune wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It was interesting to see the participants in the film pushing the point that the rest of the industry was doing it too, whereas the producers pushed back by saying they got singled out for harsh treatment because they initially denied it. The way they report the time line suggests the problem was that internally the c-suite people seem to not have been given the unvarnished truth, and the initial delay was probably due to no one internally wanting to communicate the scope of the problem in clear language to the c-suite.

As above the "weekend mail" memo just said the regulators would be looking for a defeat device without spelling out that there was a defeat device present, and described it as a $20M problem which in reality ended up being a $4B problem. They put this memo in the CEO's briefcase along with a lot of other stuff for him to read over the weekend. This reeks of a conspiracy to be able to later say hey we told him, without facing the career damage that would come from actually telling him. Of course the CEO's version is the memo made no impression on him at the time, implying that he was a victim of a cover up by his underlings.

I will always wonder if the technical people gave Boeing's CEO the unvarnished truth after the first MCAS crash. The company's reaction was to question JT's mechanical and piloting standards. We also know a fix was weeks away from approval when the second crash happened. Reminds me of how the documentary said VW were playing for time. In both cases, time ran out. Were they playing for time because the c-suite wasn't being told of how big the exposure was, or were they playing for time because the c-suite knew how big the exposure was? Everyone has a tale to tell that protects them, except for Forkner and Schmidt. Actually, Forkner may yet beat the charges, thanks to an expensive legal team paid for by Boeing.


I would assume the latter, remember the minutes of the meeting even late in the day 2015 when he sat down with the engine development engineers. Even then he could have saved the day if he wanted to but decided to string people along as much as they can.

Frankly put, if I were a CEO, I probably would do what Mr. Winterkorn did and played as well. I am sure most people who are on this forum are either working or have worked professionally so most probably know that the higher you go up the corporate ladder, the more politics in involved and I mean internal company politics. Now to be 10 years on the top job is not an easy thing. As was alluded in the latter part, I am sure he had his people all over the company. So while he can very well claim legally that he had no knowledge and unless somebody provides some sort of documentary evidence (Boris Johnson partying quiz screenshots comes to mind) it would be he said/they said kinda thing. Even the minutes of the 2015 meeting is somewhat strangely worded and too sparse. The prosecutors have their work cut out to them. Even if people at the highest were found guilty (unless it can be shown that both CEO and the VW management board both knew and deliberately stalled) they would get away. And most people who come to such high positions know better than to have anything written around that could come to bite them later.

How hard can it be when you truly have a vision can be seen from Frank Deiss, 2 years and had his powers cut even though he means well for the group and have been warning them that Tesla and others are being much quicker. Something I just reported/shared in another thread. And it is for that he had his powers curtailed :(

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton ... 4164701d20

I appreciate your posts, especially the points in this one about about politics and networking.

I appreciate the efforts still being made to get to the bottom of what happened all these years later.

Meanwhile, Boeing has been given a few hundred million dollar fine (the rest was money it already agreed to pay) and it'll probably be 20 years before we know more about what actually went on, if ever.


I do doubt much would come out of it unless and until people flip or there is some evidence and chain of evidence and witnesses that VW (the board and the CEO) intentionally misled the public. And this would be a hard one to pull off, realistically speaking even if they knew about it.

As we have seen in Boeing's case, all of it was done to a single fall guy. Why? Realistically put, Boeing is too big to fail. Too many jobs on the line, too many reputations, too many deals, and of course the defense contracts. I would say even if the 800+ were Americans rather than people from other countries, the result would have been more or less the same. The U.S. has become far too divided that everything becomes politics. The people on the other side wouldn't see that Boeing cheated or would give it as much importance as they would to jobs going or Boeing potentially becoming bankrupt. This can be very well seen in the Congressional hearings of Boeing in the aftermath, only one side was thinking about jobs and nothing else. They didn't question the stall or anything, most of them.


I am guessing the same calculations are being made even in Germany somewhere. Not necessarily by the prosecutors but others. Even if somehow the prosecutors do prove that the CEO and the board were guilty they could be pardoned or given fewer fines. I do not know whether Germany would be having juries or would it be having a single or a bench of judges, Either way something to look forward to for sure.
 
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Aesma
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:51 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Part of what happened was to minimally meet the precise US and Euro test standards/cycles of pollution allowed and programing the fuel systems with the vehicles submitted by vehicle makers for it to pass them. Basically vehicle makers like VW submitted rigged cars while production cars didn't meet standards and got away with it for a while. It came out in broader independent testing that production and consumer sold vehicles didn't meet the standard.


That's not it, in the case of VW at least. All cars sold had the cheating device/software, that would recognize when the car was on a test stand, and would change its engine management to pass the test.

It was discovered when someone had the idea to measure emissions with the car actually on the road driving, not on a stand. This defeated the cheating thing.
 
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Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:04 pm

pune wrote:
I do doubt much would come out of it unless and until people flip or there is some evidence and chain of evidence and witnesses that VW (the board and the CEO) intentionally misled the public. And this would be a hard one to pull off, realistically speaking even if they knew about it.

The documentary suggests some engineer other than Schmidt flipped by telling the regulators about the defeat device. These are very different circumstances though. The engineer probably knew it was inevitable the regulators would find the defeat device. Not so for any alleged internal conspiracy to hide the truth. Yet the prosecutor in Braunschweig is starting off with five being charged and is suggesting the net will be cast further.

pune wrote:
As we have seen in Boeing's case, all of it was done to a single fall guy. Why? Realistically put, Boeing is too big to fail. Too many jobs on the line, too many reputations, too many deals, and of course the defense contracts. I would say even if the 800+ were Americans rather than people from other countries, the result would have been more or less the same. The U.S. has become far too divided that everything becomes politics. The people on the other side wouldn't see that Boeing cheated or would give it as much importance as they would to jobs going or Boeing potentially becoming bankrupt. This can be very well seen in the Congressional hearings of Boeing in the aftermath, only one side was thinking about jobs and nothing else. They didn't question the stall or anything, most of them.

The problem though is the use of the fall guy is allowing for the ongoing cover up of bad business practices that need to be changed if the "too big to fail" don't end up collapsing without the possibility of being saved.
 
pune
Posts: 1406
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: DW's Dieselgate Documentary

Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
pune wrote:
I do doubt much would come out of it unless and until people flip or there is some evidence and chain of evidence and witnesses that VW (the board and the CEO) intentionally misled the public. And this would be a hard one to pull off, realistically speaking even if they knew about it.

The documentary suggests some engineer other than Schmidt flipped by telling the regulators about the defeat device. These are very different circumstances though. The engineer probably knew it was inevitable the regulators would find the defeat device. Not so for any alleged internal conspiracy to hide the truth. Yet the prosecutor in Braunschweig is starting off with five being charged and is suggesting the net will be cast further.


True This seems like it would be a long trial or maybe number of trials. I do wish there was some place where we could get day-to-day coverage of the trial and what happened and what didn't, At the very least it would make for good reading.


Revelation wrote:
pune wrote:
As we have seen in Boeing's case, all of it was done to a single fall guy. Why? Realistically put, Boeing is too big to fail. Too many jobs on the line, too many reputations, too many deals, and of course the defense contracts. I would say even if the 800+ were Americans rather than people from other countries, the result would have been more or less the same. The U.S. has become far too divided that everything becomes politics. The people on the other side wouldn't see that Boeing cheated or would give it as much importance as they would to jobs going or Boeing potentially becoming bankrupt. This can be very well seen in the Congressional hearings of Boeing in the aftermath, only one side was thinking about jobs and nothing else. They didn't question the stall or anything, most of them.

The problem though is the use of the fall guy is allowing for the ongoing cover up of bad business practices that need to be changed if the "too big to fail" don't end up collapsing without the possibility of being saved.


Most people respond to stick and incentives. As the whole 'affair' has shown, there are just no incentives to be truthful or any consequences to be untruthful. That is the reason I had also shared that Mother Jones article, even in those years the carmakers fooled the regulators, either willingly or unwillingly and for close to a decade. One has to understand that if many people from FAA were from Boeing then it is easy to be compromised. Let's say I did a decade at Boeing and then I'm shifted to FAA for doing the same/similar work. We do know a lot from what came in the press that a lot of FAA regulation was deputized to Boeing itself and possibly there may have been few to many who were on FAA but were past Boeing employees. So If I had been part of Boeing and then deputized to FAA or after retirement or some other issue was in FAA but had parted from Boeing on good terms I would always carry a torch for them. This is what probably all good employees would do. Even if I got a sense that they were doing something wrong, I would be more incentivized to talk to people I know of Boeing rather than take any action or penalize them.

It is possible that there may have been in the FAA who knew some or more about the MCA issue but chose to remain silent. Sadly and also interestingly, FAA got away with a light touch, same as Boeing. In both things, I do not see any incentive to push any change.

The only thing that would serve up as a wake-up call is if there are some EV aircraft coming and do a Tesla and Boeing is unable to compete. Today, because there is only Airbus and Boeing, and Airbus can't grow much than it already got, it profited a lot from the issue at Boeing but there are limits to how much they can grow sadly :(

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