There is an automaker from Europe called Stellantis who made the above statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7eX2HDdiro

Now as shared in the video why is it then China has now around 40-50% of the market fully on BEV's even though they can hybrids at the same kind. The same is the situation in Norway, Germany (coasting to around 50%) . Just couple of days back was watching Electric Vehicle Man where the gentleman concerned shared the breakup costs between ICE and EV's and shared that ones who had EV's saved about US 6,000 dollars per year compared to those who have ICE vehicles, and this is apart from maintainance expenses that we know.

Also recently, there were a bunch of Tesla 2008 owners who had celebrated 1.5 million kms journey on their car which doesn't have the range that today's cars and batteries have.

Electric cars are getting popular in my country despite politicians being against them. Ordinary buyers are behind the take up, not just electric car proponents.

Could this be that Stellantis is rather backwards in the electric vehicle game compared with other major car companies?

Carlos Tavares has long made statements regarding government policies regarding EVs. While some of it is valid criticism, it's not hard to piece together why -- when he was just leading PSA, they had invested heavily in diesel technology, and the French market had one of the highest percentage of new diesel purchases prior to "Dieselgate." Fast forward past 2015 and we know how that's played out. Looking now s/p FCA merger and the Opel acquisition, they have 15 very different brands they have to corral. Opel/Vauxhall just become aligned with the PSA platforms and now they'll have to do it with the Fiat vehicles. Volkwagen is far ahead of them in that regard in their main market of Europe. GM and Ford are way ahead in electric pickups in the US. Everywhere they look they're behind in terms of electrification and are looking at a slog to get platforms and manufacturing aligned.

johns624 wrote:

I'm in the US and while I could see my next car, some years down the road, being a hybrid, I can't see a full electric in my future. Our distances are quite a bit farther than in Europe and EVs don't have the range.

Unless your commute is more than 100 miles each way or you put more than 200 miles on your car in a single day, an electric car is unlikely to impact your life in anyway. Aside from a transcontinental trip (not many people do that with any regularity), long distance trips beyond an average commute aren't any shorter in Europe in many cases than the US.

johns624 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

johns624 wrote:

I'm in the US and while I could see my next car, some years down the road, being a hybrid, I can't see a full electric in my future. Our distances are quite a bit farther than in Europe and EVs don't have the range.

Unless your commute is more than 100 miles each way or you put more than 200 miles on your car in a single day, an electric car is unlikely to impact your life in anyway. Aside from a transcontinental trip (not many people do that with any regularity), long distance trips beyond an average commute aren't any shorter in Europe in many cases than the US.

I've done several 600+ miles a day trips in the last year. I've keep what I have. 35mpg is good enough for me.

Then leave that as your situation, which likely has less to do with distances in the US vs. Europe. The average commuter is just fine in an electric vehicle in both the US and Europe. Average commuting distances are similar.

johns624 wrote:

I'm in the US and while I could see my next car, some years down the road, being a hybrid, I can't see a full electric in my future. Our distances are quite a bit farther than in Europe and EVs don't have the range.

I want a Tesla so bad but I spend half the year on both ends of the country. I will keep my truck for driving cross country but I still think the electric charge station infrastructure needs to be better before I pull the trigger.

cpd wrote:

Electric cars are getting popular in my country despite politicians being against them. Ordinary buyers are behind the take up, not just electric car proponents.

Could this be that Stellantis is rather backward in the electric vehicle game compared with other major car companies?

Unfortunately, the car industry is a pretty self-serving one, case in point -

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/a-ce ... d-fuel-but?

Or -

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/19 ... o-madness/

Toyota is also stoking this madness.

Consider just these facts, both general motors and Toyota had made EV's 20 years ago. But both scrapped it afterward. GM went the whole nine yards and tried to get all EV1 crushed, thankfully few are still alive even after 20 odd years.

Just think about it, if both Toyota and GM would have taken the correct decisions, Tesla wouldn't have been where they are today. Sadly most of these companies are still asleep at the wheel. Came to know few days ago, that GM sold 400k EV in China. Turns out that all the vehicles were the Wuling ones where SIAC and Wuling actually made the Wuling Hongguang Mini EV, what expertise did GM play in it nobody knows. Even the wikipedia page is silent on those points.

To me the Stellantis executive is partially right saying that politicians are pandering to a growing number of their voters to push for EV's. Politicians have set mandates for no ICE or even partial EV's (hybrids, plug in hybrids) in tight time frames that for vehicle makers like Stellantis will be costly to meet at the standards operators need. Stellantis is a mash up of so many different car brands and markets (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Fiat, Opel, Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Ram) and too many of those brands have few models that meet current standards of EV's and are tight on investment money for development of EV's. They are way behind VW Group, Mercedes-Benz, Ford, GM, Toyota on EV development and practical vehicles on the road.

For many EV's are not or never going to be practical. EV's still initially cost considerably more than comparable size ICE/Hybrid vehicles. Many don't have access to electric outlets to charge EV,s in particular urban and suburban persons like who live in apartments, only have street parking, live in very hot and cold environments. 'Refueling' EV's still can take 20 minutes to hours while with gasoline/petrol/Diesel it can be done in 5 minutes. The electrical grid isn't set up for massive EV charging and too much of it still relies on oil, coal, natural gas, so still developing noxious fumes, wind and solar with their sustainability and practical issues, nuclear is in decline due to long term safety issues. There will also have to be new taxation schemes as revenues to pay for roads from motor fuels will decline and EV's will have to pay a per-mile tax with its issues of privacy.

ltbewr wrote:

To me the Stellantis executive is partially right saying that politicians are pandering to a growing number of their voters to push for EV's. Politicians have set mandates for no ICE or even partial EV's (hybrids, plug in hybrids) in tight time frames that for vehicle makers like Stellantis will be costly to meet at the standards operators need. Stellantis is a mash up of so many different car brands and markets (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Fiat, Opel, Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Ram) and too many of those brands have few models that meet current standards of EV's and are tight on investment money for development of EV's. They are way behind VW Group, Mercedes-Benz, Ford, GM, Toyota on EV development and practical vehicles on the road.

For many EV's are not or never going to be practical. EV's still initially cost considerably more than comparable size ICE/Hybrid vehicles. Many don't have access to electric outlets to charge EV,s in particular urban and suburban persons like who live in apartments, only have street parking, live in very hot and cold environments. 'Refueling' EV's still can take 20 minutes to hours while with gasoline/petrol/Diesel it can be done in 5 minutes. The electrical grid isn't set up for massive EV charging and too much of it still relies on oil, coal, natural gas, so still developing noxious fumes, wind and solar with their sustainability and practical issues, nuclear is in decline due to long term safety issues. There will also have to be new taxation schemes as revenues to pay for roads from motor fuels will decline and EV's will have to pay a per-mile tax with its issues of privacy.

It really depends on where you get your news from. For e.g. what the politicians are basing on are the observations and predictions from the IPCC reports. Now unless you call the IPCC reports a hoax don't really see going that way. All the other things you have mentioned have been debunked hundreds of times, can you tell why in China, Europe, and the U.S, which is sort of a laggard the sales of EV's are ramping up day-by-day, month-by-month, year-by-year even though overall the car market has been going down in dumps. The only bright light is the EV's. And you seem to somehow think that all these people who have bought EV's are fools and haven't thought about all those issues. Most car companies have to do OTA updates just for sheer competition, whether they are EV or non-EV, when are your privacy issues when such OTA updates are there. Mind you, I'm not saying that those concerns are not valid, but the concerns are similar when we are posting in this forum or any other. The danger of identity being leaked is everywhere, not just one place or one way. Just last year there was multi-billion credit card identity and whatnot leakage that cost both customers and credit card companies billions of dollars but didn't see any outrage either here on A.net or anywhere else. This was taken as a cost of doing transactions in a digital age.

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/

I have no objection to EVS, if a buyer wants one and it serves their purpose, fine. I do object to paying higher taxes to subsidize the wealthy person’s car, however. EVs are pricier and overwhelmingly purchased by the wealthy, as they are expensive.

Elon Musk’s wealth is derived from the Federal subsidies on his cars—selling credits.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-car ... than-cars/

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I have no objection to EVS, if a buyer wants one and it serves their purpose, fine. I do object to paying higher taxes to subsidize the wealthy person’s car, however. EVs are pricier and overwhelmingly purchased by the wealthy, as they are expensive.

Elon Musk’s wealth is derived from the Federal subsidies on his cars—selling credits.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-car ... than-cars/

Fossil fuels have been having subsidies for over a 100 years but I never saw anybody protesting about it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/di ... ar-AASXZTB

From the article

"The value of government subsidies for fossil fuels dropped to $375 billion in 2020, their lowest in the past decade, according to data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the International Monetary Fund and the International Energy Agency. "

Now as far as pricing eos, the Wuling Mini EV in China costs less than $5000 dollars.

Ironically, the rich are the ones who get more fat on oil subsidies but again no talk about it. The costs an average person would pay over the lifetime of the car via a fossil fuel car vs EV would be many times higher, although looking at the rate at which these cars are taking over the market, within the next 2-3 years, I hardly see the ICE guys making any comeback. And if what you said is true, then Stellantis wouldn't be trying so hard to also get on the EV platform. They just don't have the technology (sadly) and hence trying to muddy the waters. Congratulations, you are doing their work for them.

@GalaxyFlyer

FWIW, Carbon credits were and are also a U.S. thing. The problem is that the U.S. is nowhere ready for it and has been dithering for decades even though 69 countries around the world have carbon pricing.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/15/will-us ... olicy.html

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I have no objection to EVS, if a buyer wants one and it serves their purpose, fine. I do object to paying higher taxes to subsidize the wealthy person’s car, however. EVs are pricier and overwhelmingly purchased by the wealthy, as they are expensive.

Elon Musk’s wealth is derived from the Federal subsidies on his cars—selling credits.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-car ... than-cars/

You also need to look at this, I have shared some comments above as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW7Aovm7esE

Just another CEO of a massive corporation whining about things not going their way because they'd rather keep doing things the way they have done them forever than spend money to adapt to a changing World.

Electrification is not the ultimate solution for everyone's needs, nor will it happen without its issues and obstacles along the way. There will be a need for ICE vehicles for a long time yet. Nevertheless, electrification of vehicles is coming and it is here to stay.
It is up to manufacturers to put up the effort to adapt to the evolving reality or stay behind and whine to politicians that they'd rather keep doing what they've always done because it's easier and more profitable and cry foul when they miss the train.

We all know how history treats the latter. If I was a Stellantis shareholder, I'd start asking myself questions about the leadership and future of the company.
Looking at the hodgepodge group of brands that constitute it, I can't help but see little in the way of inspiring names when it comes to innovation or anything that inspires confidence in their ability to successfully tack towards new technologies. They're all brands which seem to have been grudgingly dragged into electrification despite themselves and only offer token and subpar electric models, if any at all.

Good luck to them with that strategy.

Francoflier wrote:

Just another CEO of a massive corporation whining about things not going their way because they'd rather keep doing things the way they have done them forever than spend money to adapt to a changing world.

Electrification is not the ultimate solution for everyone's needs, nor will it happen without its issues and obstacles along the way. There will be a need for ICE vehicles for a long time yet. Nevertheless, the electrification of vehicles is coming and it is here to stay.
It is up to manufacturers to put up the effort to adapt to the evolving reality or stay behind and whine to politicians that they'd rather keep doing what they've always done because it's easier and more profitable and cry foul when they miss the train.

We all know how history treats the latter. If I was a Stellantis shareholder, I'd start asking myself questions about the leadership and future of the company.
Looking at the hodgepodge group of brands that constitute it, I can't help but see little in the way of inspiring names when it comes to innovation or anything that inspires confidence in their ability to successfully tack towards new technologies. They're all brands that seem to have been grudgingly dragged into electrification despite themselves and only offer token and subpar electric models if any at all.

Good luck to them with that strategy.

On the money. It's the same case in India, just a few years back, I had asked most of the vehicle manufacturers in the AGM as to what their plans are or were for electrification or electric mobility, all of them were of the opinion that it was a 'fad' that will pass by and now this 'fad' is becoming more and more mainstream.

https://insideevs.com/news/560910/germa ... ales-2021/ . In Norway from what I read nobody buys ICE vehicles as their resale value has become zero. EV's even second-hand, third-hand continue to attract premiums.

johns624 wrote:

Anybody else see the irony in two threads going on at the same time---one about EVs and the other about Bugattis?

Not in the slightest. Imagine it’s like horses 100 years ago. Most people were happy that there was a more convenient method of transportation and there was less shit in the streets whereas a set of enthusiasts were happy to continue to pay the premium to enjoy horses in a different way. The same here, most people recognise that ev technology is here to bring in a new age of better personal transportation but there will still be a need for the old fashioned technology in specialised applications, nostalgia and enthusiasts. I’m sure there were people adamant that cars weren’t going to take over because there wasn’t enough petrol stations or women’s bonnets will blow off or some such crap, imagine their faces when they stopped being able to find city centre stabling…

At some point it will stop making more and more sense to drive an electric/hydrogen vehicle and it will simply make less and less sense to drive an ICE vehicle.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On an international board such as this, people need to be careful with generalisations. What is true in one country may not be true in another, and a perfect example of that is the consistent statements that EV’s are more expensive than ICE’s. It all depends on the taxation and, the willingness of the local market to pay a premium and the eagerness of the OEMs to penetrate a given market.

To give you an example, here are prices for the near-identical Mercedes GLC and EQC. Basically the same car, except one is ICE and the other is EV.

Germany
EQC 400: EUR 75K
GLC 400d: EUR 83K

Denmark
EQC 400: DKK 733K
GLC 400d: DKK 944K

United Kingdom
EQC 400: UKP 69K
GLC 300de: UKP 51K

So, no, EV’s are not always more expensive. In countries with heavy car taxes, they are quite frequently much, much, cheaper as they attract lower taxation. In countries with less heavy taxes they might still be cheaper, either through subsidies or a desire from the OEM to gain market share. And in some countries they are indeed more expensive. But there’s no “golden rule” saying EVs are more expensive than ICEs.

B777LRF wrote:

On an international board such as this, people need to be careful with generalisations. What is true in one country may not be true in another, and a perfect example of that is the consistent statements that EV’s are more expensive than ICE’s. It all depends on the taxation and, the willingness of the local market to pay a premium and the eagerness of the OEMs to penetrate a given market.

To give you an example, here are prices for the near-identical Mercedes GLC and EQC. Basically the same car, except one is ICE and the other is EV.

Germany
EQC 400: EUR 75K
GLC 400d: EUR 83K

Denmark
EQC 400: DKK 733K
GLC 400d: DKK 944K

United Kingdom
EQC 400: UKP 69K
GLC 300de: UKP 51K

So, no, EV’s are not always more expensive. In countries with heavy car taxes, they are quite frequently much, much, cheaper as they attract lower taxation. In countries with less heavy taxes, they might still be cheaper, either through subsidies or a desire from the OEM to gain market share. And in some countries, they are indeed more expensive. But there’s no “golden rule” saying EVs are more expensive than ICEs.

Also, as far as rich boys go or rich men, the ultra-wealthy are what 1% of any given population. There was a study couple of years that told/shared that 5% of the worlds richest have 95% of the wealth.

This article was shared/told by Rollingstone but sadly it didn't get as much as viral as it needed to be -

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... y-1187564/

And then we have all sorts of papers including the latest pandora papers and whatnot that tell the story itself. So this idea that only the rich are buying is nothing but bunkum. For sure one could say it is Tesla 3 or a premium model like that, but there are so many models now and coming within this year that only is going to make it easier. VW in Germany alone has to 90k backorders for id4 and the other vehicles in his portfolio would easily cross 150k+ (all of them electric). After dieselgate, VW is pumping in 100 billion dollars so their vehicles are 100% EV. This is similar to BYD who made the change couple of years ago now has 70% electric.

The irony in all this apart from Stellantis is Toyota. After trying to shame and muddy waters about EV, they go silently to BYD and ask them to make vehicles for them with a Toyota stamp. And I have seen so many fan boys of Toyota who think then and even now that they could turn things around in few weeks/months but if you ask them why are they taking help of BYD (an enemy country/company) they have no answers.

Just saw this from the Netherlands -

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/19/65 ... -3-shines/

That tells you more than enough where the market is leading. And almost all manufacturers have backlogs of orders spanning months, they are not just able to churn them out fast enough and are outpacing the market.

[quote="pune”].... Tesla 3 or a premium model like that...[/quote]

There’s nothing premium about a Tesla model 3. And the only “premium” thing about the S and X models is the price tag. Having sat in them, driven them, and been given a tour around them by a mechanic, why anyone would pay that much for something so poorly built is beyond my comprehension.

Tesla’s are very well built in general, although they have had a steep learning curve on a few things.
Model 3 ramp up in particular, gave them a few problems. Paint jobs on 2019 M3s didn’t win any awards.

The Model S started out with a fantastic battery consepts, fantastic motors, and the notion that the rest could be bought of the shelf and made into a car.

They have taken it from there, and into the worlds most valuable automotive company not only disruptive propulsion, self-driving technology and still being the only ones using centralized processing for everything in the car by self-designed chips. They are also causing disruption in manufacturing of the actual car bodies and challenging old car production truths.

All in less than 10 years.

I think this video is terribly interresting:
https://youtu.be/TOrrdqje9Og

B777LRF wrote:

[quote="pune”].... Tesla 3 or a premium model like that...[/quote]

There’s nothing premium about a Tesla model 3. And the only “premium” thing about the S and X models is the price tag. Having sat in them, driven them, and been given a tour around them by a mechanic, why anyone would pay that much for something so poorly built is beyond my comprehension.[/quote][/quote]

I honestly don't get why we're putting all our eggs in one basket and focusing only on electric vehicles. Why not spread the risk and work on hydrogen fuel cells too?

Besides, has anybody made any calculations as to the environmental impact if the world goes fully electric and we now have 52 million electric cars being sold?

That article actually underestimates the Norwegian numbers as we don’t count any kind of hybrid vehicles as electric vehicles in daily speak. They seem to have misunderstood.
The number they refer to are for PURE electric vehicles.

In reality non-plugin vehicles including Hybrids and pure Fossil vehicles are below 10% of sales at this point, mainly sold in the nothernmost part of the country and other very thinly populated rural outback areas where charging infrastructure still aren’t satisfactory. (Ie. The arctic/polar area of Finnmark at 70 degrees north)

pune wrote:

Just saw this from the Netherlands -

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/19/65 ... -3-shines/

That tells you more than enough where the market is leading. And almost all manufacturers have backlogs of orders spanning months, they are not just able to churn them out fast enough and are outpacing the market.

Hydrogen isn’t happening. Efficiency is below ridicolous, and production, transportation and distrobution is high risk.
While we now have a plug-in sales number of more than 90%, hydrogen is at 0,01%. Hydrogen was tried, it was the Betamax of car technology.

Of course someone has made calculations of the environmental impact. Pretty much every serious international transportation research center has done that. Let me sum it up: If we trashed every ICE-vehicle here and now and replaced them with brand new pure EVs, the environmental impact from production would be absorbed after 2 years, and everything from then on out would be a net gain.

EVs aren’t problem free in an environmental perspective, but people tend to underestimate how horrendously terrible our dependence on fossile fuel and fossil vehicles are. Politically, environmentally, regarding public health and economically.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

I honestly don't get why we're putting all our eggs in one basket and focusing only on electric vehicles. Why not spread the risk and work on hydrogen fuel cells too?

Besides, has anybody made any calculations as to the environmental impact if the world goes fully electric and we now have 52 million electric cars being sold?

johns624 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

Then leave that as your situation, which likely has less to do with distances in the US vs. Europe. The average commuter is just fine in an electric vehicle in both the US and Europe. Average commuting distances are similar.

What comes next? "Your house is too big"? "You have more assets than you need"? "You're too old and taking up space"?

Can we tone down the tangential histrionics? How about, "most people's vehicle needs aren't yours and that impacts their purchasing..."

M564038 wrote:

Tesla’s are very well built in general, although they have had a steep learning curve on a few things.
Model 3 ramp up in particular, gave them a few problems. Paint jobs on 2019 M3s didn’t win any awards.

The Model S started out with a fantastic battery consepts, fantastic motors, and the notion that the rest could be bought of the shelf and made into a car.

They have taken it from there, and into the worlds most valuable automotive company not only disruptive propulsion, self-driving technology and still being the only ones using centralized processing for everything in the car by self-designed chips. They are also causing disruption in manufacturing of the actual car bodies and challenging old car production truths.

All in less than 10 years.

I think this video is terribly interresting:
https://youtu.be/TOrrdqje9Og

B777LRF wrote:

[quote="pune”].... Tesla 3 or a premium model like that...[/quote]

There’s nothing premium about a Tesla model 3. And the only “premium” thing about the S and X models is the price tag. Having sat in them, driven them, and been given a tour around them by a mechanic, why anyone would pay that much for something so poorly built is beyond my comprehension.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

I would never argue with the success of Tesla, but don't confuse innovation with quality control. Having said that, the consistent of their quality, fit and finish, has room for improvement.
https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tes ... 20of%20100.

I didn’t suggest actually doing it. It is simply not
possible from a logistical perspective. It was a way of illustrating how environmentally superior EVs are, and the numbers are correct.
It is already happing as fast as they can produce EVs.

LCDFlight wrote:

M564038 wrote:

Hydrogen isn’t happening. Efficiency is below ridicolous, and production, transportation and distrobution is high risk.
While we now have a plug-in sales number of more than 90%, hydrogen is at 0,01%. Hydrogen was tried, it was the Betamax of car technology.

Of course someone has made calculations of the environmental impact. Pretty much every serious international transportation research center has done that. Let me sum it up: If we trashed every ICE-vehicle here and now and replaced them with brand new pure EVs, the environmental impact from production would be absorbed after 2 years, and everything from then on out would be a net gain.

EVs aren’t problem free in an environmental perspective, but people tend to underestimate how horrendously terrible our dependence on fossile fuel and fossil vehicles are. Politically, environmentally, regarding public health and economically.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

I honestly don't get why we're putting all our eggs in one basket and focusing only on electric vehicles. Why not spread the risk and work on hydrogen fuel cells too?

Besides, has anybody made any calculations as to the environmental impact if the world goes fully electric and we now have 52 million electric cars being sold?

It would be ridiculous to “throw away today’s fleet,” which would be a colossal intervention with terrible effects
On everyone except the idle rich and idle young activists, who have no actual problems or work during their day to attend to, so they make up ways to bother the busy people who are doing all the work.

This is a solution in search of a problem. We can put carbon taxes in place, and carbon emissions will naturally go down to whatever the desired level is. Stop meddling in details you cannot possibly understand (the engineering choices of billions of individuals). With a carbon tax, markets, including transportation markets and car markets, will have no problem correctly solving these problems. Far better than armchair people with a god complex ever will.

luckyone wrote:

johns624 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

Unless your commute is more than 100 miles each way or you put more than 200 miles on your car in a single day, an electric car is unlikely to impact your life in anyway. Aside from a transcontinental trip (not many people do that with any regularity), long distance trips beyond an average commute aren't any shorter in Europe in many cases than the US.

I've done several 600+ miles a day trips in the last year. I've keep what I have. 35mpg is good enough for me.

Then leave that as your situation, which likely has less to do with distances in the US vs. Europe. The average commuter is just fine in an electric vehicle in both the US and Europe. Average commuting distances are similar.

This would be true of people in the larger cities looking for a commuting vehicle, but that is their situation. Millions of people take the the roads each year on trips beyond what an EV can do in a way that isn’t logistically challenging. I had to laugh at a bunch of hybrids sitting at a gas station charging last summer as did my business, grabbed a snack, gassed up and left in about 5 minutes.

M564038 wrote:

Tesla’s are very well built in general, although they have had a steep learning curve on a few things.
Model 3 ramp up in particular, gave them a few problems. Paint jobs on 2019 M3s didn’t win any awards.

The Model S started out with a fantastic battery consepts, fantastic motors, and the notion that the rest could be bought of the shelf and made into a car.

They have taken it from there, and into the worlds most valuable automotive company not only disruptive propulsion, self-driving technology and still being the only ones using centralized processing for everything in the car by self-designed chips. They are also causing disruption in manufacturing of the actual car bodies and challenging old car production truths.

All in less than 10 years.

I think this video is terribly interresting:
https://youtu.be/TOrrdqje9Og

B777LRF wrote:

[quote="pune”].... Tesla 3 or a premium model like that...[/quote]

There’s nothing premium about a Tesla model 3. And the only “premium” thing about the S and X models is the price tag. Having sat in them, driven them, and been given a tour around them by a mechanic, why anyone would pay that much for something so poorly built is beyond my comprehension.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Sandy Munroe is a pleasure to watch, he talks so much sense and this is after the above gentleman has for better or worse worked with diesel and petrol cars almost all his life. Still the gentleman is able to understand, adapt and even tell what the future is all about

LCDFlight wrote:

pune wrote:

There is an automaker from Europe called Stellantis who made the above statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7eX2HDdiro

Now as shared in the video why is it then China has now around 40-50% of the market fully on BEV's even though they can hybrids at the same kind. The same is the situation in Norway, Germany (coasting to around 50%) . Just couple of days back was watching Electric Vehicle Man where the gentleman concerned shared the breakup costs between ICE and EV's and shared that ones who had EV's saved about US 6,000 dollars per year compared to those who have ICE vehicles, and this is apart from maintainance expenses that we know.

Also recently, there were a bunch of Tesla 2008 owners who had celebrated 1.5 million kms journey on their car which doesn't have the range that today's cars and batteries have.

I don’t think you understood Stellantis’ comment. Without government subsidies, China, Norway and Germany would not be demanding 50% EVs. It would be more like 3%. There is very strong evidence to prove this as a fact. You can feel free to disagree with this observation, but you would be wrong. That is all Stellantis is saying. It is a factual observation, not a “lie.”

When I shared above with link that fossil fuel subsidies have been life-long I didn't hear anything from you meaning you were ok with that. And those fossil fuel subsidies have been there for almost a century, and this is apart from the many shenanigans that the car industry did, for which I gave examples above, even for those you were quiet that resulted in poorer safety for everybody and this is when the costs were not at all costly, did you read the motherjones article, would you or your father or grandfather if they were buying a car in the 70's would they have gladly paid that one dollar more. Instead people were made to wait for a decade for the fixes to be done irrespective of how many people died.

LCDFlight wrote:

M564038 wrote:

Hydrogen isn’t happening. Efficiency is below ridicolous, and production, transportation and distrobution is high risk.
While we now have a plug-in sales number of more than 90%, hydrogen is at 0,01%. Hydrogen was tried, it was the Betamax of car technology.

Of course someone has made calculations of the environmental impact. Pretty much every serious international transportation research center has done that. Let me sum it up: If we trashed every ICE-vehicle here and now and replaced them with brand new pure EVs, the environmental impact from production would be absorbed after 2 years, and everything from then on out would be a net gain.

EVs aren’t problem free in an environmental perspective, but people tend to underestimate how horrendously terrible our dependence on fossile fuel and fossil vehicles are. Politically, environmentally, regarding public health and economically.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

I honestly don't get why we're putting all our eggs in one basket and focusing only on electric vehicles. Why not spread the risk and work on hydrogen fuel cells too?

Besides, has anybody made any calculations as to the environmental impact if the world goes fully electric and we now have 52 million electric cars being sold?

It would be ridiculous to “throw away today’s fleet,” which would be a colossal intervention with terrible effects
On everyone except the idle rich and idle young activists, who have no actual problems or work during their day to attend to, so they make up ways to bother the busy people who are doing all the work.

This is a solution in search of a problem. We can put carbon taxes in place, and carbon emissions will naturally go down to whatever the desired level is. Stop meddling in details you cannot possibly understand (the engineering choices of billions of individuals). With a carbon tax, markets, including transportation markets and car markets, will have no problem correctly solving these problems. Far better than armchair people with a god complex ever will.

LOL, you refuse to see even when facts are shared, the numbers speak for themselves. Do you have any number for idle rich and idle young activists as a percentage of the population? What would you say or do when the number goes beyond that number. Who else you would find to blame ??? People buy stuff depending on the choices they have. And people have shared prices of even EV's who are now cheaper than their petrol/diesel counterparts but you didn't acknowledge it or did not want to acknowledge it. Please let me know which work is that requires you to be 24x7 in your car. Most people I know don't use a car for 8-10 hrs in a day and that is more than sufficient to get the car charged. And charging infrastructure is being built at a rapid pace. Even British Petroleum has seen where the light is -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7GjDOLnXM4

Perhaps they are as ignorant about the hardworking people who somehow cannot charge even though charging EV is much less expensive than petrol and diesel as well as the health risks and whatnot.

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-ca ... ancer.html

DL717 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

johns624 wrote:

I've done several 600+ miles a day trips in the last year. I've keep what I have. 35mpg is good enough for me.

Then leave that as your situation, which likely has less to do with distances in the US vs. Europe. The average commuter is just fine in an electric vehicle in both the US and Europe. Average commuting distances are similar.

This would be true of people in the larger cities looking for a commuting vehicle, but that is their situation. Millions of people take the the roads each year on trips beyond what an EV can do in a way that isn’t logistically challenging. I had to laugh at a bunch of hybrids sitting at a gas station charging last summer as did my business, grabbed a snack, gassed up and left in about 5 minutes.

EV's are great. I very much want one and will likely buy one sometime over the next five years. However, they are not yet "your only car" ready. We have four cars in our family at the moment. We are normal "big city" daily commuters and all that. Electrics should be perfect. However we need to be able to travel over 500 miles in a single day, simply, several times a year. And electrics can't do that yet. We also tow... and that is over a distance too. Electrics again can't do that. Yet...

But that doesn't mean I won't own one and enthusiastically brag about it and love it when I do get one. I am also interested in seeing how the second hand market develops for electrics. And I want independent repair and services options available ( I am not a fan of the "John Deere" model.). With solar on my house I can "fill up" cheaply and daily.

As to the idea of laughing of it taking a while to recharge their electric vehicle....that echoes the person on their trusty horse laughing at all those newfangled gas powered things that had to wait to gas up.

Tugg

DL717 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

johns624 wrote:

I've done several 600+ miles a day trips in the last year. I've keep what I have. 35mpg is good enough for me.

Then leave that as your situation, which likely has less to do with distances in the US vs. Europe. The average commuter is just fine in an electric vehicle in both the US and Europe. Average commuting distances are similar.

This would be true of people in the larger cities looking for a commuting vehicle, but that is their situation. Millions of people take the the roads each year on trips beyond what an EV can do in a way that isn’t logistically challenging. I had to laugh at a bunch of hybrids sitting at a gas station charging last summer as did my business, grabbed a snack, gassed up and left in about 5 minutes.

And in UK, it was the reverse when there was no gas while those in EV were able to go around, that is not even 2-3 month old story. The sad fact is you can't make 'gas' at your home but you can make electricity if you invest in it. And again people are doing that, also even this idea of 'lounging around' goes kaput as more and more quick chargers, rapid chargers are being built. Three technologies in the short and medium-term, LFP (now), sodium batteries (in few months at the most) and SSD (solid-state batteries) this may take a few years all of these are also gonna make charging times equal to 5-10 mins. so all of these arguments also fall by the wayside.

Now as far as range issues are concerned, this was done almost 2 years ago -

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/ne ... 88083.html

And now more new cars are coming and will come at the high-end that will 1000 kms. on a single charge.

https://www.bgr.in/news/ces-2022-this-m ... e-1033349/

The preppers are going to love EVs once they get over their current diesel punk-fashion.

You can produce the fuel yourself, and they are mechanically insanely simple.

M564038 wrote:

The preppers are going to love EVs once they get over their current diesel punk-fashion.

You can produce the fuel yourself, and they are mechanically insanely simple.

I am guessing you mean something like https://store.steampowered.com/app/761830/Mr_Prepper/. The term 'prepper' was unfamiliar to me before I saw this game. Most of these cars that are being built with tesla are now with gigacastings that are removing a large number of parts that are totally unnecessary in an EV. That itself tells where it is going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1bQbA3EOKw

DL717 wrote:

luckyone wrote:

johns624 wrote:

I've done several 600+ miles a day trips in the last year. I've keep what I have. 35mpg is good enough for me.

Then leave that as your situation, which likely has less to do with distances in the US vs. Europe. The average commuter is just fine in an electric vehicle in both the US and Europe. Average commuting distances are similar.

This would be true of people in the larger cities looking for a commuting vehicle, but that is their situation. Millions of people take the the roads each year on trips beyond what an EV can do in a way that isn’t logistically challenging. I had to laugh at a bunch of hybrids sitting at a gas station charging last summer as did my business, grabbed a snack, gassed up and left in about 5 minutes.

Most people can afford the 2nd car to be gas powered, but the trends are in, and EV is taking over the market. Guess what that means. More EV stations for those long hauls. I drive on the east coast, and I-95 sees a lot of EV vehicles. My neighborhood has a ton of them.

And the really bad news for Diesel and Gas operators will be coming this year and next as the Trucks all start mass sales from Rivian, Tesla, GM, Ford and other suppliers.

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/tesla-cybertruck

The number of chargers and superchargers in the U.S. and elsewhere -

https://www.finder.com/tesla-superchargers-map

Specialized EV parts like motors and batteries are going to be very customizeable and very cheap on the 3rd party market very soon, once any substantial number of EVs are out of factory warranty. (Battery is usually 8 years). Its allready starting.

Locally here, the portion of the youngsters that culturally rather buy fancy cars than drink and party, used to drive semi new, pimped up mercs and BMWs. Now it’s all pimped up old Model Ss and new model 3s. The local pimp and repair shops are all Tesla experts now. It’s only been a couple of years since Tesla started authorising other shops than their own repair centers to do work on them, and its become its own genre of car mods now.

Another trend is parted out early EV batteries (From early Leafs and Tesla Ss) used as power banks for summer or mountain cabins, in boats, or just general high capacity batteries and back-up solutions. Local companies doing that work everywhere. Very few batteries goes to waste, and no real re-cycling, only re-purposing for the time being.

Only 8-10 year old used packs to avoid is from the american «Boeing»-brand, but distributed world wide! They are probably out there for cheap, but they are not a safe supplier!

Got a Nissan 10kWh (parts of an old Leaf) pack for our spartan rural summer house with a simple panel, to replace the old 12V camping system.
Its a whole different world!

LCDFlight wrote:

pune wrote:

Now as far as range issues are concerned, this was done almost 2 years ago -

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/ne ... 88083.html

And now more new cars are coming and will come at the high-end that will 1000 kms. on a single charge.

https://www.bgr.in/news/ces-2022-this-m ... e-1033349/

Great. I have a sporty European car right now that can do almost 1000km per charge. It cost me very little money, and does not have an incredibly toxic EV battery. EV are a very cool luxury product (I had a Model S loaner in 2015). Super cool luxury product, but like a house in Aspen, I can appreciate it while saying it has no relevance to my real life. And I am comfortably well off. Perhaps because I do not buy things like Teslas

Again FUD and I did see you did not talk about fuel subsidies on fossil fuels that have been over for a century.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/18/re ... nese-auto/

Sandy Munro said it best and that is why the Americans will even lose this round as they have done in machine tools and whatnot throughout history, closure of steel mills etc. etc. When people do not want to face the truth they use untruths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g63SJwFdGTQ

LCDFlight wrote:

pune wrote:

Now as far as range issues are concerned, this was done almost 2 years ago -

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/ne ... 88083.html

And now more new cars are coming and will come at the high-end that will 1000 kms. on a single charge.

https://www.bgr.in/news/ces-2022-this-m ... e-1033349/

Great. I have a sporty European car right now that can do almost 1000km per charge. It cost me very little money, and does not have an incredibly toxic EV battery. EV are a very cool luxury product (I had a Model S loaner in 2015). Super cool luxury product, but like a house in Aspen, I can appreciate it while saying it has no relevance to my real life. And I am comfortably well off. Perhaps because I do not buy things like Teslas

There are also rare earth metals that are used more in conventional cars rather than EV's but yeah, you carry on -

https://www.kochvsclean.com/electric-ca ... hs-metals/

I stopped taking you seriously by «incredibly toxic EV battery».

Fossil fuels took 8.7 million lives in 2018.

As I said earlier in the thread. Anyone who find EVs environmentaly problematic have forgotten how insane and ghastly the world of fossile fuels are.
A yearly Holocaust. No less.

Source: https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2021/ ... ly-thought

LCDFlight wrote:

pune wrote:

Now as far as range issues are concerned, this was done almost 2 years ago -

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/ne ... 88083.html

And now more new cars are coming and will come at the high-end that will 1000 kms. on a single charge.

https://www.bgr.in/news/ces-2022-this-m ... e-1033349/

Great. I have a sporty European car right now that can do almost 1000km per charge. It cost me very little money, and does not have an incredibly toxic EV battery. EV are a very cool luxury product (I had a Model S loaner in 2015). Super cool luxury product, but like a house in Aspen, I can appreciate it while saying it has no relevance to my real life. And I am comfortably well off. Perhaps because I do not buy things like Teslas :)