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cpd
Posts: 7157
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:48 pm

johns624 wrote:
I'm in the US and while I could see my next car, some years down the road, being a hybrid, I can't see a full electric in my future. Our distances are quite a bit farther than in Europe and EVs don't have the range.

We have electric cars going more than 500km, surely that’s far enough? People do need to stop occasionally and have a rest. Then you recharge the car, and many of them recharge really fast at 270kw.

I would prefer to stop once or twice just to get out and walk around, have something to eat or a coffee then get going.

Even here where the infrastructure isn’t so good for electric cars it’s still okay.

However we are planning to make electric car buyers pay a tax based on the distance they drive in order to make electric cars so costly people will not buy them and existing owners will sell them.
Last edited by cpd on Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:48 pm

M564038 wrote:
Specialized EV parts like motors and batteries are going to be very customizeable and very cheap on the 3rd party market very soon, once any substantial number of EVs are out of factory warranty. (Battery is usually 8 years). Its allready starting.

Locally here, the portion of the youngsters that culturally rather buy fancy cars than drink and party, used to drive semi new, pimped up mercs and BMWs. Now it’s all pimped up old Model Ss and new model 3s. The local pimp and repair shops are all Tesla experts now. It’s only been a couple of years since Tesla started authorising other shops than their own repair centers to do work on them, and its become its own genre of car mods now.

Another trend is parted out early EV batteries (From early Leafs and Tesla Ss) used as power banks for summer or mountain cabins, in boats, or just general high capacity batteries and back-up solutions. Local companies doing that work everywhere. Very few batteries goes to waste, and no real re-cycling, only re-purposing for the time being.

Only 8-10 year old used packs to avoid is from the american «Boeing»-brand, but distributed world wide! They are probably out there for cheap, but they are not a safe supplier!

Got a Nissan 10kWh (parts of an old Leaf) pack for our spartan rural summer house with a simple panel, to replace the old 12V camping system.
Its a whole different world!


This is actually what has happened in China, the whole thing has been gamified and there is intense competition. There are 200 EV manufacturers so no matter what your budget, you will get a vehicle matching that. And the number of accessories is mind-boggling and both are feeding into each other and that does explain a bit why China is just jumping ahead. Within the next 2-3 years if the OEM's don't wake up, although in my view as well as many others, it is too late, they will all find themselves bankrupt because they didn't wake up in time.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:54 pm

cpd wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'm in the US and while I could see my next car, some years down the road, being a hybrid, I can't see a full electric in my future. Our distances are quite a bit farther than in Europe and EVs don't have the range.

We have electric cars going more than 500km, surely that’s far enough? People do need to stop occasionally and have a rest. Then you recharge the car, and many of them recharge really fast at 270kw.


I did share with him also those that are coming at 1000 kms. but then those who don't wanna change, they will try some argument or the other. Even they know that they cannot stop this change and it is going to be relentless. In Europe, even when the Gigafactory Berlin has not opened yet. Once it's fully opened and done, the costs of the vehicle will be 10-20% less than what it is.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:05 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
pune wrote:
Now as far as range issues are concerned, this was done almost 2 years ago -

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/ne ... 88083.html

And now more new cars are coming and will come at the high-end that will 1000 kms. on a single charge.

https://www.bgr.in/news/ces-2022-this-m ... e-1033349/


Great. I have a sporty European car right now that can do almost 1000km per charge. It cost me very little money, and does not have an incredibly toxic EV battery. EV are a very cool luxury product (I had a Model S loaner in 2015). Super cool luxury product, but like a house in Aspen, I can appreciate it while saying it has no relevance to my real life. And I am comfortably well off. Perhaps because I do not buy things like Teslas :)


This is a proper study on the lifecycle of a lithium-ion battery

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 48768-7_11

Contrary to what you say, lithium is 'mined' from salt brines, basically, it is in liquid form and you have these tanks where that natural mixture is allowed to evaporate, whatever remains is lithium, it does go through a couple of processes where it is refined but as shared the lifecycle of these batteries are far higher than fossil fuel car lifespan so can you please explain how are they 'toxic' ??? Cobalt is used to desulphurize oil and that is a non-renewable source and is toxic but didn't see you protesting about that.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28572025/
 
M564038
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:22 pm

The facts suggest you have science, politics and the comercial choices of some of the world’s leading manufacturers against you.

Feel free to believe you are the grown up one.

LCDFlight wrote:
M564038 wrote:
I stopped taking you seriously by «incredibly toxic EV battery».

Fossil fuels took 8.7 million lives in 2018.

As I said earlier in the thread. Anyone who find EVs environmentaly problematic have forgotten how insane and ghastly the world of fossile fuels are.
A yearly Holocaust. No less.

Source: https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2021/ ... ly-thought


LCDFlight wrote:

Great. I have a sporty European car right now that can do almost 1000km per charge. It cost me very little money, and does not have an incredibly toxic EV battery. EV are a very cool luxury product (I had a Model S loaner in 2015). Super cool luxury product, but like a house in Aspen, I can appreciate it while saying it has no relevance to my real life. And I am comfortably well off. Perhaps because I do not buy things like Teslas :)


Haha. You forgot to say how many lives are saved annually by fossil fuels. Perhaps 300 million? More? I would have died today without them.

In the adult world, people make trade offs based on realism and a heavy set of responsibility. But I grant that in a child’s version of reality, things are much simpler. Everybody can buy Teslas (?) and the world will be totally saved. Even though carbon emissions alone are much more complex than that, even if we confine it to just the transport sector. And that alone takes a lifetime to understand. Many of us spent careers learning about that.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:25 pm

I do love all the attacks on EV vehicles by people that forget they need a battery to start their fossil fuel machines.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:28 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
M564038 wrote:
I stopped taking you seriously by «incredibly toxic EV battery».

Fossil fuels took 8.7 million lives in 2018.

As I said earlier in the thread. Anyone who find EVs environmentaly problematic have forgotten how insane and ghastly the world of fossile fuels are.
A yearly Holocaust. No less.

Source: https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2021/ ... ly-thought


LCDFlight wrote:

Great. I have a sporty European car right now that can do almost 1000km per charge. It cost me very little money, and does not have an incredibly toxic EV battery. EV are a very cool luxury product (I had a Model S loaner in 2015). Super cool luxury product, but like a house in Aspen, I can appreciate it while saying it has no relevance to my real life. And I am comfortably well off. Perhaps because I do not buy things like Teslas :)


Haha. You forgot to say how many lives are saved annually by fossil fuels. Perhaps 300 million? More? I would have died today without them.

In the adult world, people make trade offs based on realism and a heavy set of responsibility. But I grant that in a child’s version of reality, things are much simpler. Everybody can buy Teslas (?) and the world will be totally saved. Even though carbon emissions alone are much more complex than that, even if we confine it to just the transport sector. And that alone takes a lifetime to understand. Many of us spent careers learning about that.


From where you are basing these numbers from, from the top of your hat, right ???

You have got OEMs who are overextended, all the legacy manufacturers have overextended themselves and they have simply no money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g63SJwFdGTQ&t=1300s

We like facts, not fiction and stories, share with us studies and then we will have something to argue.

And btw these are the same actors who for the last 20-30 years and more have claimed that their cars don't induce the greenhouse effect when their own scientists knew otherwise. Now please let me know who is the 'responsible' one here. And I did see that you didn't say anything about Wuling or any of the other dozen odd EVs that are in the market today.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... -Document3
 
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Tugger
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:54 pm

casinterest wrote:
And the really bad news for Diesel and Gas operators will be coming this year and next as the Trucks all start mass sales from Rivian, Tesla, GM, Ford and other suppliers.
https://www.tomsguide.com/news/tesla-cybertruck


I think the really "bad news" will not be pick-up trucks going on sale, it will be when drayage trucks and local commercial trucks start going electric in significant numbers. It will start in the ports and then major retailers large city warehouse distribution hubs and go from there. When that shifts on a large scale, that will be a big impact.

Long haul trucks will take a lot longer. I believe that transition will begin when a good electric-hybrid retro fit option comes available and cuts fuel consumption significantly. Fuels costs are a big thing for truckers. You cut it 25% or more and it can pay for itself in year or so and everyone will start jumping on it. What will be the king-maker for the electric long-haul truck will be significantly lower maintenance costs.

cpd wrote:
However we are planning to make electric car buyers pay a tax based on the distance they drive in order to make electric cars so costly people will not buy them and existing owners will sell them.

While I hate the idea of "mileage reporting" (and that is an understatement), I have not yet figured out a viable alternative to have people who use the roads pay for them proportionally. Quite frankly it is very wrong to not have electric vehicle owners paying their part for road use, maintenance and building.

What solution do you have?


Tugg
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:03 pm

I don't think that EV users would mind paying the tax as long as it goes back into making more chargers and whatnot. The whole idea of taxation is to make it better. The road tax could be priced similarly to how it priced to cars, the only thing that probably more people will demand is transparency as to where their tax dollars are going. And if it is done via a dialogue between taxation authorities and EV users to come to an amiable solution, don't think they will shy away.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:13 pm

Oh yay, another EV thread :sarcastic:

Does an EV offer me a minimum of 800km range and can be recharged in the same time it takes to fuel an ICE car with gasoline with zero long term effects on battery performance?

Nope.

Pass.

Pune and M564038 can go on all day about how that doesn't fit into "driver profiles", don't care - until an EV offers comparable convenience to current technology, many people won't buy one (not that they can afford one anyways).
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:21 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Oh yay, another EV thread :sarcastic:

Does an EV offer me a minimum of 800km range and can be recharged in the same time it takes to fuel an ICE car with gasoline with zero long term effects on battery performance?

Nope.

Pass.

Pune and M564038 can go on all day about how that doesn't fit into "driver profiles", don't care - until an EV offers comparable convenience to current technology, many people won't buy one (not that they can afford one anyways).


And I saw you are ok with the climate as well as health risks that these fossil fuel cars have, your funeral not mine.

Also when EV's are touching 30-40 and in some places the only sales (Netherlands for e.g. as I have shared the stats. above) so even the idea of affordability doesn't even come into the picture. Month by month they are racking the numbers up, ICE vehicles are only going one way, down and down. There are also public figures of all the ICE OEM's are terribly overextended, they simply have no money for anything hence all they do day and night is try to muddy the waters.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:33 pm

pune wrote:

And I saw you are ok with the climate

And where did you "see" this?

pune wrote:
Also when EV's are touching 30-40 and in some places the only sales (Netherlands for e.g. as I have shared the stats. above) so even the idea of affordability doesn't even come into the picture. Month by month they are racking the numbers up, ICE vehicles are only going one way, down and down. There are also public figures of all the ICE OEM's are terribly overextended, they simply have no money for anything hence all they do day and night is try to muddy the waters.

For many Canadians, 30-40K is out of reach. This is why many climate change taxes have been axed, like Vancouver's parking/car tax which was to be implemented in the next year - the people who can't afford an EV, can't afford to be taxed more than those who can afford an EV.

Don't care what they do in Holland or any where else in the world. And don't care what any "public figure" has to say about anything.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:46 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:

And I saw you are ok with the climate

And where did you "see" this?

pune wrote:
Also when EV's are touching 30-40 and in some places the only sales (Netherlands for e.g. as I have shared the stats. above) so even the idea of affordability doesn't even come into the picture. Month by month they are racking the numbers up, ICE vehicles are only going one way, down and down. There are also public figures of all the ICE OEM's are terribly overextended, they simply have no money for anything hence all they do day and night is try to muddy the waters.

For many Canadians, 30-40K is out of reach. This is why many climate change taxes have been axed, like Vancouver's parking/car tax which was to be implemented in the next year - the people who can't afford an EV, can't afford to be taxed more than those who can afford an EV.

Don't care what they do in Holland or anywhere else in the world. And don't care what any "public figure" has to say about anything.


I didn't mean 30-40 thousand dollars, I meant 30-40% of the market. This is what is happening in Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, France the figures are all there to see if one wants to look. So, are you trying to tell me that somehow Canada is poorer than all these countries ???

https://cleantechnica.com/tag/ev-sales/

And again what Mr. Munro shared is nothing but those figures can be looked and ascertained from various Annual Reports. The gentleman in fact even shared his source and as can be seen legacy auto is bleeding money hence they are doing all they can including misinforming public.
 
johns624
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:35 am

pune wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:

And I saw you are ok with the climate

And where did you "see" this?

pune wrote:
Also when EV's are touching 30-40 and in some places the only sales (Netherlands for e.g. as I have shared the stats. above) so even the idea of affordability doesn't even come into the picture. Month by month they are racking the numbers up, ICE vehicles are only going one way, down and down. There are also public figures of all the ICE OEM's are terribly overextended, they simply have no money for anything hence all they do day and night is try to muddy the waters.

For many Canadians, 30-40K is out of reach. This is why many climate change taxes have been axed, like Vancouver's parking/car tax which was to be implemented in the next year - the people who can't afford an EV, can't afford to be taxed more than those who can afford an EV.

Don't care what they do in Holland or anywhere else in the world. And don't care what any "public figure" has to say about anything.


I didn't mean 30-40 thousand dollars, I meant 30-40% of the market. This is what is happening in Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, France the figures are all there to see if one wants to look. So, are you trying to tell me that somehow Canada is poorer than all these countries ???

https://cleantechnica.com/tag/ev-sales/

And again what Mr. Munro shared is nothing but those figures can be looked and ascertained from various Annual Reports. The gentleman in fact even shared his source and as can be seen legacy auto is bleeding money hence they are doing all they can including misinforming public.

How about your own country? How many EVs are being sold in India?
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:48 am

johns624 wrote:
pune wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
And where did you "see" this?


For many Canadians, 30-40K is out of reach. This is why many climate change taxes have been axed, like Vancouver's parking/car tax which was to be implemented in the next year - the people who can't afford an EV, can't afford to be taxed more than those who can afford an EV.

Don't care what they do in Holland or anywhere else in the world. And don't care what any "public figure" has to say about anything.


I didn't mean 30-40 thousand dollars, I meant 30-40% of the market. This is what is happening in Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, France the figures are all there to see if one wants to look. So, are you trying to tell me that somehow Canada is poorer than all these countries ???

https://cleantechnica.com/tag/ev-sales/

And again what Mr. Munro shared is nothing but those figures can be looked and ascertained from various Annual Reports. The gentleman in fact even shared his source and as can be seen legacy auto is bleeding money hence they are doing all they can including misinforming public.

How about your own country? How many EVs are being sold in India?


In fact, very less but the news is encouraging even though they started from a very low base.

https://www.outlookindia.com/website/st ... 021/409089

https://www.zeebiz.com/automobile/news- ... ort-175714

The numbers tell the story by themselves. And this is a country where we haven't seen any major charging infrastructure vis-a-vis other countries
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:10 am

FWIW, India has some of the highest import tarrifs in the world. The Indian Govt. charges 100% import tax plus 'landing cost' a car's price + inbound shipping charges or 40k dollars or more.

https://www.onmanorama.com/news/busines ... -musk.html

The Govt. are ok with the Chinese but somehow not with the American brand and this is when the Chinese are occupying our territory. Ah, the irony.
 
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c933103
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:38 am

M564038 wrote:
The preppers are going to love EVs once they get over their current diesel punk-fashion.

You can produce the fuel yourself, and they are mechanically insanely simple.

Things like solar panels are likely rendered unusable or break down in large scale events like earthquake and volcanic eruption.
Remedies would be household battery wall.
 
cpd
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:11 am

Tugger wrote:
While I hate the idea of "mileage reporting" (and that is an understatement), I have not yet figured out a viable alternative to have people who use the roads pay for them proportionally. Quite frankly it is very wrong to not have electric vehicle owners paying their part for road use, maintenance and building.

What solution do you have?


Tugg


The problem is such a system is an administrative nightmare.

What do you intend to do with people driving extremely economical cars (some of those diesels do less than 4L/100km). Surely they aren't paying their way either because they are using less fuel so not being taxed as much.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:14 am

ACDC8 wrote:
Oh yay, another EV thread :sarcastic:

Does an EV offer me a minimum of 800km range and can be recharged in the same time it takes to fuel an ICE car with gasoline with zero long term effects on battery performance?

Nope.

Pass.

Pune and M564038 can go on all day about how that doesn't fit into "driver profiles", don't care - until an EV offers comparable convenience to current technology, many people won't buy one (not that they can afford one anyways).


You can be as dismissive as you want. At the end of the day, your requirements are only yours and not representative of the vast majority of consumers.
Most cars do a daily commute under 100 Miles and spend most of their time parked and turned off. EVs cover the need of most car owners and at the right price, they offer much more reliability and are much cheaper to operate. The demand is there and will grow along with the advances in technology and the decrease in prices that comes with the economy of scale.

You're either chiming in to tell us all that the discussion is worthless because EVs do not suit you or you're trying to dismiss the whole concept for whatever bias you have by believing that everyone has the same requirements in a vehicle as you do.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:49 am

cpd wrote:
Tugger wrote:
While I hate the idea of "mileage reporting" (and that is an understatement), I have not yet figured out a viable alternative to have people who use the roads pay for them proportionally. Quite frankly it is very wrong to not have electric vehicle owners paying their part for road use, maintenance and building.

What solution do you have?


Tugg


The problem is such a system is an administrative nightmare.

What do you intend to do with people driving extremely economical cars (some of those diesels do less than 4L/100km). Surely they aren't paying their way either because they are using less fuel so not being taxed as much.


I do not know how road tax is calculated in other countries, in most states in India, the road tax differs from state to state, this is in my state (at least till recently.)

https://www.godigit.com/road-tax/maharashtra-road-tax

Last year GOI changed laws so now the state takes a 10-year road tax at once when you are buying a vehicle even though road tax actually comes under the state list. Sadly, the center has been interfering and most people are quiet. There have been loads of taxes added on to cars as they are supposed to be for the 'rich' and consequently we had decade low numbers of car sales in 2021. Also, people would not buy new ICE cars as they are supposed to be scrapped by 2030 according to Indian regulations. The number of taxes is beyond belief. 28% tax on electronics, so if your car has any kind of electronics, whether EV or non-EV that is another tax you would have to pay. The Govt. also charges a 17% cess on the final price of the car.

A friend of mine a few months back bought a car, the car cost INR 22 lakhs, on this he paid GST+cess+road tax and whatnot and it came to another 11 lakhs. And why so, because the present Govt. has been mismanaging the economy for the last 7 years.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 040150.cms
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:56 am

And this has been happening from before the pandemic hence as can be seen in the effect on car sales in India. -

https://www.autocarindia.com/car-news/c ... 019-414115
 
FGITD
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:04 am

Francoflier wrote:

You can be as dismissive as you want. At the end of the day, your requirements are only yours and not representative of the vast majority of consumers.
Most cars do a daily commute under 100 Miles and spend most of their time parked and turned off. EVs cover the need of most car owners and at the right price, they offer much more reliability and are much cheaper to operate. The demand is there and will grow along with the advances in technology and the decrease in prices that comes with the economy of scale.

You're either chiming in to tell us all that the discussion is worthless because EVs do not suit you or you're trying to dismiss the whole concept for whatever bias you have by believing that everyone has the same requirements in a vehicle as you do.


What’s funny is how many comments mirror those made when automobiles first started coming onto the scene. It’s expensive. Doesn’t go far/fast enough, isn’t powerful enough, expensive, no infrastructure in place, etc etc

…acting like we invented the automobile and then 3 days later decided that we needed the interstate and thousands of gas stations.

The fact is that EVs will most likely be the way of the future. Car manufacturers aren’t going to relent just because of the families that need to drive halfway across the US once a year and buy a car every 15 years.

It is still a shortfall though, so it’s totally fine to say that it isn’t suited to your personal driving needs. But it’ll get there, and it’s moving a lot faster than people think
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:46 am

FGITD wrote:
Francoflier wrote:

You can be as dismissive as you want. At the end of the day, your requirements are only yours and not representative of the vast majority of consumers.
Most cars do a daily commute under 100 Miles and spend most of their time parked and turned off. EVs cover the need of most car owners and at the right price, they offer much more reliability and are much cheaper to operate. The demand is there and will grow along with the advances in technology and the decrease in prices that comes with the economy of scale.

You're either chiming in to tell us all that the discussion is worthless because EVs do not suit you or you're trying to dismiss the whole concept for whatever bias you have by believing that everyone has the same requirements in a vehicle as you do.


What’s funny is how many comments mirror those made when automobiles first started coming onto the scene. It’s expensive. Doesn’t go far/fast enough, isn’t powerful enough, expensive, no infrastructure in place, etc etc

…acting like we invented the automobile and then 3 days later decided that we needed the interstate and thousands of gas stations.

The fact is that EVs will most likely be the way of the future. Car manufacturers aren’t going to relent just because of the families that need to drive halfway across the US once a year and buy a car every 15 years.

It is still a shortfall though, so it’s totally fine to say that it isn’t suited to your personal driving needs. But it’ll get there, and it’s moving a lot faster than people think


On the money, there was recently news that Gotion High-Tech (or Guoxuan High-Tech) is planning LFP battery production in the U.S. The company has already demonstrated LFP cells with 210 watts per kilo (this is higher than the 155 watts made by BYD) and is working on getting a higher density pack range of 310 watts per kilo using nickel. Of course, we know to whom all these batteries will be given.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo ... ar-AAT0yC0
 
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Tugger
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:04 am

ACDC8 wrote:
Does an EV offer me a minimum of 800km range and can be recharged in the same time it takes to fuel an ICE car with gasoline with zero long term effects on battery performance?

Nope.

What crazy is that the day both those are "yes" is much closer than you likely think. Probably less than ten years on the 500 mile range (at a reasonable price) and not more than 20 on the fast recharge.

cpd wrote:
Tugger wrote:
While I hate the idea of "mileage reporting" (and that is an understatement), I have not yet figured out a viable alternative to have people who use the roads pay for them proportionally. Quite frankly it is very wrong to not have electric vehicle owners paying their part for road use, maintenance and building.

What solution do you have?


Tugg


The problem is such a system is an administrative nightmare.

What do you intend to do with people driving extremely economical cars (some of those diesels do less than 4L/100km). Surely they aren't paying their way either because they are using less fuel so not being taxed as much.

Oh I get the issue but again we come back to how to you fairly divide the cost? Again I don't like or support mileage reporting (and am completely against a toll systems that tracks a cars location etc.).

But on the other, there is a solid argument to be made that current economical ICE vehicles are paying a fair share. This is because the cost to build and maintain a rood for a 3000 lb car is much lower than for a 6000 lb SUV or and 80,000 18 wheeler.

Tugg
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:39 am

pune wrote:
There is an automaker from Europe called Stellantis who made the above statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7eX2HDdiro

Now as shared in the video why is it then China has now around 40-50% of the market fully on BEV's even though they can hybrids at the same kind. The same is the situation in Norway, Germany (coasting to around 50%) . Just couple of days back was watching Electric Vehicle Man where the gentleman concerned shared the breakup costs between ICE and EV's and shared that ones who had EV's saved about US 6,000 dollars per year compared to those who have ICE vehicles, and this is apart from maintainance expenses that we know.

Also recently, there were a bunch of Tesla 2008 owners who had celebrated 1.5 million kms journey on their car which doesn't have the range that today's cars and batteries have.


Norway is an exception, the govt provided massive incentives for people to adopt BEV's they completely upended the market. When toll roads, bridges and ferries are free, allowed to use bus lanes, there no 1 off purchase tax and in the early days free parking you would have been mental to buy anything other than a BEV.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:45 am

johns624 wrote:
I'm in the US and while I could see my next car, some years down the road, being a hybrid, I can't see a full electric in my future. Our distances are quite a bit farther than in Europe and EVs don't have the range.


Lucid Air can do 500m on a charge.

https://youtu.be/HpcMcgxjiL8
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:56 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I have no objection to EVS, if a buyer wants one and it serves their purpose, fine. I do object to paying higher taxes to subsidize the wealthy person’s car, however. EVs are pricier and overwhelmingly purchased by the wealthy, as they are expensive.

Elon Musk’s wealth is derived from the Federal subsidies on his cars—selling credits.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-car ... than-cars/


In Norway they are getting cheaper all the time, although if the govt decide to restart back the one off purchase tax then a lot of EV sales will evaporate.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:04 am

B777LRF wrote:
[quote="pune”].... Tesla 3 or a premium model like that...[/quote]

There’s nothing premium about a Tesla model 3. And the only “premium” thing about the S and X models is the price tag. Having sat in them, driven them, and been given a tour around them by a mechanic, why anyone would pay that much for something so poorly built is beyond my comprehension.[/quote]


I wish this forum had a like button.

My brother in law bought a Model X when they launced, the original Model X had a pop up rear spoiler, Tesla couldn't get this to work properly, so they retrofitted all of the X's with a really ugly fixed spoiler, then there are the massive panel gaps, trim that falls off, the squeaks and rattles that drive you nuts, door rubbers that leak, huge waiting list for spare parts, he's also has 3 motors changed in 3 years. Also don't get me started on the plastic leather.

Tesla make great power packs, they are they industry leader, the problem is Tesla don't make a car with the quality level expected for the prices they charge.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:05 am

luckyone wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'm in the US and while I could see my next car, some years down the road, being a hybrid, I can't see a full electric in my future. Our distances are quite a bit farther than in Europe and EVs don't have the range.

Unless your commute is more than 100 miles each way or you put more than 200 miles on your car in a single day, an electric car is unlikely to impact your life in anyway. Aside from a transcontinental trip (not many people do that with any regularity), long distance trips beyond an average commute aren't any shorter in Europe in many cases than the US.


People in states west of the Mississippi river could easily meet those criteria. It's not about the distances driven every day. People often need to take longer trips. Also EV's are not viable as hurricane and other natural disaster evacuation vehicles. I would certainly not want to get stuck on a highway in cold weather in an EV the way thousands were in northern Virginia a few weeks ago.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:09 am

Kiwirob wrote:
pune wrote:
There is an automaker from Europe called Stellantis who made the above statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7eX2HDdiro

Now as shared in the video why is it then China has now around 40-50% of the market fully on BEV's even though they can hybrids at the same kind. The same is the situation in Norway, Germany (coasting to around 50%) . Just couple of days back was watching Electric Vehicle Man where the gentleman concerned shared the breakup costs between ICE and EV's and shared that ones who had EV's saved about US 6,000 dollars per year compared to those who have ICE vehicles, and this is apart from maintainance expenses that we know.

Also recently, there were a bunch of Tesla 2008 owners who had celebrated 1.5 million kms journey on their car which doesn't have the range that today's cars and batteries have.


Norway is an exception, the govt provided massive incentives for people to adopt BEV's they completely upended the market. When toll roads, bridges and ferries are free, allowed to use bus lanes, there no 1 off purchase tax and in the early days free parking you would have been mental to buy anything other than a BEV.


True but it is not just Norway anymore, it is now more than half a dozen countries now -

https://cleantechnica.com/tag/ev-sales/

And as shared above, ICE vehicles have had subsidies for over a century and a half and people keep quiet about it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/di ... ar-AASXZTB
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:17 am

Kiwirob wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
[quote="pune”].... Tesla 3 or a premium model like that...[/quote]

There’s nothing premium about a Tesla model 3. And the only “premium” thing about the S and X models is the price tag. Having sat in them, driven them, and been given a tour around them by a mechanic, why anyone would pay that much for something so poorly built is beyond my comprehension.[/quote][/quote]

I wish this forum had a like button.

My brother in law bought a Model X when they launced, the original Model X had a pop up rear spoiler, Tesla couldn't get this to work properly, so they retrofitted all of the X's with a really ugly fixed spoiler, then there are the massive panel gaps, trim that falls off, the squeaks and rattles that drive you nuts, door rubbers that leak, huge waiting list for spare parts, he's also has 3 motors changed in 3 years. Also don't get me started on the plastic leather.

Tesla make great power packs, they are they industry leader, the problem is Tesla don't make a car with the quality level expected for the prices they charge.[/quote]


You or your brother are comparing a startup auto company which came in the market and proved to be successful in 100 years and feel they should not make any mistakes. That is the reason you should be seeing Sandy Munro videos where he takes all the EV's, tears them down, shares what is good/bad around them and he does it yearly. For e.g. re-sharing the same video that was shared by a gentleman above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOrrdqje9Og

The other interesting bit about Tesla it pays 0 dollars for advertising while others pay huge sums going into billions of dollars just on ads. Of course, people would get jealous but that is par for the course.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:23 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'm in the US and while I could see my next car, some years down the road, being a hybrid, I can't see a full electric in my future. Our distances are quite a bit farther than in Europe and EVs don't have the range.

Unless your commute is more than 100 miles each way or you put more than 200 miles on your car in a single day, an electric car is unlikely to impact your life in anyway. Aside from a transcontinental trip (not many people do that with any regularity), long distance trips beyond an average commute aren't any shorter in Europe in many cases than the US.


People in states west of the Mississippi river could easily meet those criteria. It's not about the distances driven every day. People often need to take longer trips. Also EV's are not viable as hurricane and other natural disaster evacuation vehicles. I would certainly not want to get stuck on a highway in cold weather in an EV the way thousands were in northern Virginia a few weeks ago.


This was again fud pushed about EV cars.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/i- ... ar-AASYgah
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:48 am

pune wrote:
You or your brother are comparing a startup auto company which came in the market and proved to be successful in 100 years and feel they should not make any mistakes.

(...)

The other interesting bit about Tesla it pays 0 dollars for advertising while others pay huge sums going into billions of dollars just on ads. Of course, people would get jealous but that is par for the course.


Don’t think that’s neither a fair nor a correct assessment. What Kiwi and I are pointing out, is that Tesla is not the premium product their pricing would lead you to believe. When Tesla is charging north of 100K EUR for a Model X, we expect it to be on-par with the quality of similarly priced products. And that’s not the case, very far from it actually. Whether the competition has had 1, 10 or 100 years to reach that level of quality is immaterial; if Tesla is unable to match that level of quality, then their products are overpriced and certainly not “premium”.

As for the comments regarding marketing budgets that is neither here nor there in a discussion of quality. Fact of the matter is that Tesla are hugely successful selling poorly made vehicles at very high prices.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:58 am

B777LRF wrote:
pune wrote:
You or your brother are comparing a startup auto company which came in the market and proved to be successful in 100 years and feel they should not make any mistakes.

(...)

The other interesting bit about Tesla it pays 0 dollars for advertising while others pay huge sums going into billions of dollars just on ads. Of course, people would get jealous but that is par for the course.


Don’t think that’s neither a fair nor a correct assessment. What Kiwi and I are pointing out, is that Tesla is not the premium product their pricing would lead you to believe. When Tesla is charging north of 100K EUR for a Model X, we expect it to be on-par with the quality of similarly priced products. And that’s not the case, very far from it actually. Whether the competition has had 1, 10 or 100 years to reach that level of quality is immaterial; if Tesla is unable to match that level of quality, then their products are overpriced and certainly not “premium”.

As for the comments regarding marketing budgets that is neither here nor there is a discussion of quality. The fact of the matter is that Tesla is hugely successful in selling poorly made vehicles at very high prices.


Let's say you are correct in your assessment, they have sold roughly 2 million vehicles to date, or perhaps a bit more than that. Does anybody know the rejection rate or anything? For other companies, we know they had massive recalls. The case in the example is Bolt from GM. And this is a company that had 100+ years in manufacturing cars.

https://energycentral.com/c/cp/energy-v ... -26-evs-q4

Tesla moved to BYD LFP quite sometime back that does not have any such issues.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:24 am

ACDC8 wrote:
Pune and M564038 can go on all day about how that doesn't fit into "driver profiles", don't care - until an EV offers comparable convenience to current technology, many people won't buy one (not that they can afford one anyways).


heck, i only drive a plug in hybrid, but i can tell you that is an unfair standard. Because the ICE car can not offer the convenience that an electric car can offer: charging at home, at work and so on.

Now if you drive a lot beyond its battery range, you got a point, but you still have to subtract all the times you are not stopping at a gas station to fill up because you don´t have to as well.

ACDC8 wrote:
Does an EV offer me a minimum of 800km range and can be recharged in the same time it takes to fuel an ICE car with gasoline with zero long term effects on battery performance?


does your ICE car drive tens of thousands of miles without any wear, tear and performance degradation on its engine?

B777LRF wrote:
pune wrote:
You or your brother are comparing a startup auto company which came in the market and proved to be successful in 100 years and feel they should not make any mistakes.

(...)

The other interesting bit about Tesla it pays 0 dollars for advertising while others pay huge sums going into billions of dollars just on ads. Of course, people would get jealous but that is par for the course.


Don’t think that’s neither a fair nor a correct assessment. What Kiwi and I are pointing out, is that Tesla is not the premium product their pricing would lead you to believe. When Tesla is charging north of 100K EUR for a Model X, we expect it to be on-par with the quality of similarly priced products. And that’s not the case, very far from it actually. Whether the competition has had 1, 10 or 100 years to reach that level of quality is immaterial; if Tesla is unable to match that level of quality, then their products are overpriced and certainly not “premium”.

As for the comments regarding marketing budgets that is neither here nor there in a discussion of quality. Fact of the matter is that Tesla are hugely successful selling poorly made vehicles at very high prices.


plus the iffy bit they do get pretty loud inside once you exceed typical highway speeds.
I do sometimes wonder how many Tesla have been bought instead of other BEV simply because they over promise on features they are about to deliver.

Aren´t they supposed to drive fully autonomous and make money for you instead of costing you since 2019? Didn´t Musk tell his customers it would be financially insane to buy anything but a Tesla in 2018?

cpd wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'm in the US and while I could see my next car, some years down the road, being a hybrid, I can't see a full electric in my future. Our distances are quite a bit farther than in Europe and EVs don't have the range.

We have electric cars going more than 500km, surely that’s far enough? People do need to stop occasionally and have a rest. Then you recharge the car, and many of them recharge really fast at 270kw..


but you get the 270kw only in a rather small part of charging, and BEV with a 500km electric range tend to do a lot less when it is freezing cold.

That of course isn´t a problem for most drivers.

best regards
Thomas
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:34 am

pune wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
[quote="pune”].... Tesla 3 or a premium model like that...[/quote]

There’s nothing premium about a Tesla model 3. And the only “premium” thing about the S and X models is the price tag. Having sat in them, driven them, and been given a tour around them by a mechanic, why anyone would pay that much for something so poorly built is beyond my comprehension.[/quote][/quote]

I wish this forum had a like button.

My brother in law bought a Model X when they launced, the original Model X had a pop up rear spoiler, Tesla couldn't get this to work properly, so they retrofitted all of the X's with a really ugly fixed spoiler, then there are the massive panel gaps, trim that falls off, the squeaks and rattles that drive you nuts, door rubbers that leak, huge waiting list for spare parts, he's also has 3 motors changed in 3 years. Also don't get me started on the plastic leather.

Tesla make great power packs, they are they industry leader, the problem is Tesla don't make a car with the quality level expected for the prices they charge.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

You or your brother are comparing a startup auto company which came in the market and proved to be successful in 100 years and feel they should not make any mistakes. That is the reason you should be seeing Sandy Munro videos where he takes all the EV's, tears them down, shares what is good/bad around them and he does it yearly. For e.g. re-sharing the same video that was shared by a gentleman above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOrrdqje9Og

The other interesting bit about Tesla it pays 0 dollars for advertising while others pay huge sums going into billions of dollars just on ads. Of course, people would get jealous but that is par for the course.[/quote]


Tesla have been building vehicles for many years, the Model S was first launched in 2012, it's still badly put together 10 years later. There is not excuse for this.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:38 am

As far as charging infrastructure and time is concerned, that will only improve especially with improvements in charger designs as well as battery technology themselves. As shared above, both LFP and sodium batteries promise larger densities as well as cheaper pricing. And anyways, lithium-ion batteries prices have gone enormously down.

https://www.electronicdesign.com/market ... v-charging

https://news.mit.edu/2021/lithium-ion-b ... costs-0323
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:41 am

Kiwirob wrote:
pune wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:


Tesla have been building vehicles for many years, the Model S was first launched in 2012, it's still badly put together 10 years later. There is not excuse for this.


I did see you kept quiet on the GM recall, why the hate for Tesla and not GM ??? And I asked for data that you don't have it seems.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:43 am

And btw in China, they have already have price parity to ICE vehicles and guess still who is winning.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:43 am

pune wrote:

I didn't mean 30-40 thousand dollars, I meant 30-40% of the market. This is what is happening in Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, France the figures are all there to see if one wants to look.

Thats nice. Canada is at 3% BEV - and it will take years to even get close to where other countries are at.
pune wrote:
So, are you trying to tell me that somehow Canada is poorer than all these countries ???


What I'm trying to tell you is that 30-40K for a vehicle is out of reach for many Canadians - don't care if you think that makes you think that citizens of one country are richer or poorer than another country - compare your little heart out. Financial demographics aside, a lot of Canadians simply have no interest in EVs, and even if they do shell out big bucks for a car, we have other things that we want in a car - being an EV is very low on that totem pole - sorry, thats just the way it is.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:47 am

Francoflier wrote:
you want. At the end of the day, your requirements are only yours and not representative of the vast majority of consumers.
Most cars do a daily commute under 100 Miles and spend most of their time parked and turned off. EVs cover the need of most car owners and at the right price, they offer much more reliability and are much cheaper to operate. The demand is there and will grow along with the advances in technology and the decrease in prices that comes with the economy of scale.

You're either chiming in to tell us all that the discussion is worthless because EVs do not suit you or you're trying to dismiss the whole concept for whatever bias you have by believing that everyone has the same requirements in a vehicle as you do.

I'm not being dismissive, I'm being realistic - mass amounts of EVs on North American roads is years away because my needs in a vehicle is shared by the most of consumers here. It doesn't matter how long our commutes are, it doesn't matter how long our car sits in our drive ways - at the end of the day, all that matters is what consumers want - and the majority aren't flocking to EVs.

My commute is literally 10kms one way, and the odd road trip on the weekend. EV would be "perfect" for me - but where am I going to charge it? I can't charge it at home, EVs are not permitted to charge in my building. Can't charge it at work, our work place doesn't have a single plug and has no plans to do so in the future. So what? Drive to a mall on the weekend and let it sit there for hours and waste my days off? North American's favour convenience - they want to fill up and go where and when they want.
Last edited by ACDC8 on Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:50 am

Kiwirob wrote:
pune wrote:
There is an automaker from Europe called Stellantis who made the above statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7eX2HDdiro

Now as shared in the video why is it then China has now around 40-50% of the market fully on BEV's even though they can hybrids at the same kind. The same is the situation in Norway, Germany (coasting to around 50%) . Just couple of days back was watching Electric Vehicle Man where the gentleman concerned shared the breakup costs between ICE and EV's and shared that ones who had EV's saved about US 6,000 dollars per year compared to those who have ICE vehicles, and this is apart from maintainance expenses that we know.

Also recently, there were a bunch of Tesla 2008 owners who had celebrated 1.5 million kms journey on their car which doesn't have the range that today's cars and batteries have.


Norway is an exception, the govt provided massive incentives for people to adopt BEV's they completely upended the market. When toll roads, bridges and ferries are free, allowed to use bus lanes, there no 1 off purchase tax and in the early days free parking you would have been mental to buy anything other than a BEV.

How do Norwegian drivers deal with days-long traffic jam caused by snow with BEV?
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:00 am

Tugger wrote:
What crazy is that the day both those are "yes" is much closer than you likely think. Probably less than ten years on the 500 mile range (at a reasonable price) and not more than 20 on the fast recharge.

LOL - thats not crazy - I literally said the same thing in one of the other threads - but nope, the EV fanatics say that most people in Canada will be buying an EV in the next 4 to 5 years. One of them was bold enough to claim that my next car will be an EV :rotfl:

I'm not fighting EVs, don't have anything against them - just simply pointing out the realities of them. We're simply not there yet. I don't understand why thats such a hard thing for some (not you) to understand.
Last edited by ACDC8 on Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:00 am

pune wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
pune wrote:


Tesla have been building vehicles for many years, the Model S was first launched in 2012, it's still badly put together 10 years later. There is not excuse for this.


I did see you kept quiet on the GM recall, why the hate for Tesla and not GM ??? And I asked for data that you don't have it seems.


What GM recall, I've never owned a GM product and I have next to no interest in the brand. Even if they had a recal it still doesn't absolve Tesla of the terrible build quality of it products.
 
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:04 am

c933103 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
pune wrote:
There is an automaker from Europe called Stellantis who made the above statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7eX2HDdiro

Now as shared in the video why is it then China has now around 40-50% of the market fully on BEV's even though they can hybrids at the same kind. The same is the situation in Norway, Germany (coasting to around 50%) . Just couple of days back was watching Electric Vehicle Man where the gentleman concerned shared the breakup costs between ICE and EV's and shared that ones who had EV's saved about US 6,000 dollars per year compared to those who have ICE vehicles, and this is apart from maintainance expenses that we know.

Also recently, there were a bunch of Tesla 2008 owners who had celebrated 1.5 million kms journey on their car which doesn't have the range that today's cars and batteries have.


Norway is an exception, the govt provided massive incentives for people to adopt BEV's they completely upended the market. When toll roads, bridges and ferries are free, allowed to use bus lanes, there no 1 off purchase tax and in the early days free parking you would have been mental to buy anything other than a BEV.

How do Norwegian drivers deal with days-long traffic jam caused by snow with BEV?


No idea. I don't know anyone who has been stuck in a days long traffic jam in any kind of vehicle.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:07 am

pune wrote:
I did see you kept quiet on the GM recall, why the hate for Tesla and not GM ??? And I asked for data that you don't have it seems.

Both build crap cars and I wouldn't buy from either of them because they are utter garbage.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:11 am

tommy1808 wrote:
does your ICE car drive tens of thousands of miles without any wear, tear and performance degradation on its engine?

I've not owned a single ICE vehicle that had a significant loss of range or performance despite the mileage on the odometer and certainly not due to how I fuel the car. Can a BEV make me the same promise? Fast charge the car every time with no long term effect on the battery's range capacity?
tommy1808 wrote:
heck, i only drive a plug in hybrid, but i can tell you that is an unfair standard. Because the ICE car can not offer the convenience that an electric car can offer: charging at home, at work and so on.

Sure, if you can charge at work or at home, which many, can't.
tommy1808 wrote:
Now if you drive a lot beyond its battery range, you got a point, but you still have to subtract all the times you are not stopping at a gas station to fill up because you don´t have to as well.

Unless I'm going on a road trip, I fuel up once a month - literally, 5 minutes a month is spent on fueling my car.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:24 am

ACDC8 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
does your ICE car drive tens of thousands of miles without any wear, tear and performance degradation on its engine?

I've not owned a single ICE vehicle that had a significant loss of range or performance despite the mileage on the odometer and certainly not due to how I fuel the car. Can a BEV make me the same promise? Fast charge the car every time with no long-term effect on the battery's range capacity?


All sorts of FUD, If you don't take care of your car how quickly would you have to replace it. There are so many stories and experiences shared by people that tell they had long enriching and inexpensive experience for years. From one of the early users. The idea of any car is you take care of it and it will take care of you. And this is for all cars and by that extension almost all consumer electronics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVxEOETTWnQ
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:26 am

FGITD wrote:
What’s funny is how many comments mirror those made when automobiles first started coming onto the scene. It’s expensive. Doesn’t go far/fast enough, isn’t powerful enough, expensive, no infrastructure in place, etc etc

…acting like we invented the automobile and then 3 days later decided that we needed the interstate and thousands of gas stations.

The fact is that EVs will most likely be the way of the future. Car manufacturers aren’t going to relent just because of the families that need to drive halfway across the US once a year and buy a car every 15 years.

It is still a shortfall though, so it’s totally fine to say that it isn’t suited to your personal driving needs. But it’ll get there, and it’s moving a lot faster than people think

But thats the thing, once automobiles provided the convenience, they became more and more popular and replaced horse and buggy more and more - and the same thing applies to EVs - once they provide the convenience, then they'll become more popular and start replacing ICEs more and more - but we're still a ways off.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:27 am

ACDC8 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
does your ICE car drive tens of thousands of miles without any wear, tear and performance degradation on its engine?

I've not owned a single ICE vehicle that had a significant loss of range or performance despite the mileage on the odometer and certainly not due to how I fuel the car. Can a BEV make me the same promise? Fast charge the car every time with no long term effect on the battery's range capacity?
tommy1808 wrote:
heck, i only drive a plug in hybrid, but i can tell you that is an unfair standard. Because the ICE car can not offer the convenience that an electric car can offer: charging at home, at work and so on.

Sure, if you can charge at work or at home, which many, can't.
tommy1808 wrote:
Now if you drive a lot beyond its battery range, you got a point, but you still have to subtract all the times you are not stopping at a gas station to fill up because you don´t have to as well.

Unless I'm going on a road trip, I fuel up once a month - literally, 5 minutes a month is spent on fueling my car.


Why don't you add to that list poisoning yourself as well as others? Also add to that list as a qualification.
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