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M564038
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:04 am

Thats like Norway-order of magnitude sales numbers....Except... the difference in population size.

Your second point: That is the famoustest of the famoustest lastest words anyone has ever heard, You have got NO idea of what's coming for you!

(Well, you could have taken a clue from Tesla, because thats what the chinese did. One a unimaginable scale)

Anyways, want some tips on what stocks to buy? It's no secret. Chinese EV-manufacturers.

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Pune - I trust you are not in the United States.
Your quote - . In the U.S. you had a president who for four years said no to EV, hence obvious they are gonna miss and sooner or later all the Chinese EVs will come and eat the American market except for Tesla.

One - approx 770,000 EV's were sold in the US during Trump's term. While he did not actively promote them, he didn't stop their sale as you infer.
Two - The Chinese have been unable to crack the US automarket other than parts and a few thousand Buick's. And they never will because politicians both Republican and Democrat will not allow it. Period.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:24 am

M564038 wrote:
Thats like Norway-order of magnitude sales numbers....Except... the difference in population size.

Your second point: That is the famoustest of the famoustest lastest words anyone has ever heard, You have got NO idea of what's coming for you!

(Well, you could have taken a clue from Tesla, because thats what the chinese did. One a unimaginable scale)

Anyways, want some tips on what stocks to buy? It's no secret. Chinese EV-manufacturers.

The US and Canada are very protective of their auto industry - which is why our automotive options are pale compared to other parts of the world. Our Governments will invest in our own EV manufacturing before allowing Chinese entrants to gain a foothold.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:54 am

ACDC8 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Thats like Norway-order of magnitude sales numbers....Except... the difference in population size.

Your second point: That is the famoustest of the famoustest lastest words anyone has ever heard, You have got NO idea of what's coming for you!

(Well, you could have taken a clue from Tesla, because thats what the chinese did. One a unimaginable scale)

Anyways, want some tips on what stocks to buy? It's no secret. Chinese EV-manufacturers.

The US and Canada are very protective of their auto industry - which is why our automotive options are pale compared to other parts of the world. Our Governments will invest in our own EV manufacturing before allowing Chinese entrants to gain a foothold.


Seems you didn't read the memo, all your manufacturers except for Tesla are losing. Shared by none other than by Sandy Munro himself. Somebody who has worked with GM and Ford and others before he became an EV enthusiast. He has shared how if and when the Chinese start to come in, at least for the U.S. they can't say no otherwise the Chinese will put pressure on all the American manufacturers who are making money in China. Then Biden would have to finance all the too big to fail companies who have been not doing any innovating at all, simply resting on their assess. And this has happened before, he shared when the Japanese came how the American manufacturers said not to worry. This is all history, just repeating again.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:57 am

M564038 wrote:
Thats like Norway-order of magnitude sales numbers....Except... the difference in population size.

Your second point: That is the famoustest of the famoustest lastest words anyone has ever heard, You have got NO idea of what's coming for you!

(Well, you could have taken a clue from Tesla, because thats what the chinese did. One a unimaginable scale)

Anyways, want some tips on what stocks to buy? It's no secret. Chinese EV-manufacturers.

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Pune - I trust you are not in the United States.
Your quote - . In the U.S. you had a president who for four years said no to EV, hence obvious they are gonna miss and sooner or later all the Chinese EVs will come and eat the American market except for Tesla.

One - approx 770,000 EV's were sold in the US during Trump's term. While he did not actively promote them, he didn't stop their sale as you infer.
Two - The Chinese have been unable to crack the US automarket other than parts and a few thousand Buick's. And they never will because politicians both Republican and Democrat will not allow it. Period.


On the money, especially as they are doing all the innovating.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:00 am

pune wrote:
Seems you didn't read the memo, all your manufacturers except for Tesla are losing.

You think this is something new? LOL

I've explained this to you before in another thread - feel free to review it, not going to waste my time repeating it.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:54 am

Prune - I'm sorry but you really don't know anything about the politics of the auto industry in the US and Canada.
Why do you think the Germans, Japanese and Koreans design and build cars in North America? It ain't because it's cheaper. Those countries know that you better build where you sell otherwise you are kept out of the market. And the more the Chinese threaten to "smash our skulls" the more likely it will be you see even more pushback against Chinese imports.

And the comment that all our auto manufacturers are losing is just wrong and ignorant of the facts. Ford and GM are actually about to make Tesla a diminishing player in EV's in North America. Maybe not so with ICE cars, the worst car sold in America recently was a small SUV Ford imported from India.
 
FGITD
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:10 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Prune - I'm sorry but you really don't know anything about the politics of the auto industry in the US and Canada.
Why do you think the Germans, Japanese and Koreans design and build cars in North America? It ain't because it's cheaper. Those countries know that you better build where you sell otherwise you are kept out of the market. And the more the Chinese threaten to "smash our skulls" the more likely it will be you see even more pushback against Chinese imports.


The old adage of “cheap Chinese junk” carries too much weight in the US.

The car could be built of 90% Chinese manufactured components but as long as it’s assembled in the US under a familiar name, people will happily buy it. Build that same car under a Chinese brand or Chinese assembly plant…different story.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:56 am

pune wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:

Manufacturers seem to be looking at better faster chargers and ever cheaper batteries rather than hydrogen. But speaking of batteries: like real estate the big deal is batteries, batteries, batteries. That is the limit of how many personal, business, commercial (short and long haul) vehicles will be sold in the next five years. Some next generation batteries don't mind being charged to 100% and then mostly drained. That along with more charging stations likely will be what relieves 'range anxiety'.


You still need a crap load of power to charge them.


And yet they are somehow able to charge them in China without breaking a sweat.

https://electrek.co/2022/01/10/2021-ev- ... yers-grew/


Which country has more power stations under construction than anywhere else.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:16 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
Somebody is full of fear.

The only ones full of fear are the ones refusing to realize that ICE vehicles will still be around for years to come and that EVs don't work for everyone nor does everyone want them - yet they choose to continue their relentless spread of the Gospel like a newly saved JW canvasing a neighbourhood.


ICE vehicles will still be around but they will be expensive to own and operate, in Europe at least you won't be able to buy a new one, they will still remain popular in developing countries which don't have the infrastructure to go BEV.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:42 am

Kiwirob wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
Somebody is full of fear.

The only ones full of fear are the ones refusing to realize that ICE vehicles will still be around for years to come and that EVs don't work for everyone nor does everyone want them - yet they choose to continue their relentless spread of the Gospel like a newly saved JW canvasing a neighbourhood.


ICE vehicles will still be around but they will be expensive to own and operate, in Europe at least you won't be able to buy a new one, they will still remain popular in developing countries which don't have the infrastructure to go BEV.


On the money, this is what it will be.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:50 am

In most developed countries, centralized heating and cooling is given. In most developing countries, it does not even come into the discussion. Leave that, there has been a plan to distribute gas nationally (LPG for kitchens) and at the huge expense, the infrastructure has been laid out. There are pipelines crisscrossing the entire country. Where it fails, the last mile. Why? Because there is much money to be made in LPG cylinders (illegally).
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:52 am

Kiwirob wrote:
ICE vehicles will still be around but they will be expensive to own and operate, in Europe at least you won't be able to buy a new one, they will still remain popular in developing countries which don't have the infrastructure to go BEV.

I've never disagreed with that - I've simply said its not going to happen overnight.

Then it becomes a question, at least where I live, once no more new ICE vehicles are available (which will take years), there is still a very large market for used vehicles and how are we going to "tax" those vehicles as many of those vehicles will be needed by a very large part of our population that cannot afford a new vehicle nor a slightly used EV as the costs will still be out of reach for them.

As I've pointed out in another thread, our City was going to implement a parking tax based on emissions and fuel economy of your car, but that proposal got axed because at this point in time, the people who cannot afford a newer more fuel efficient vehicle will be taxed unfairly.

There is a lot more to EVs than just the environmental side of things - there are also economic and infrastructure, which makes things much more complicated in some countries than it does in others.

I've lived in Europe for many years, emissions taxes are nothing new to me and I have no qualms with them.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:01 am

pune wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Who's going to fill these jobs in the current labor shortage? You can't just expect to have an infinite supply of employees. We might run into the problem of having too much work for too few people.


Actually, in the future, the opposite will happen, too few people would be needed on the factory floor. ...

At some point in the future, perhaps. But right now I could walk out of my current job and have a new one by tomorrow. (Not that I would want to, my current work is enjoyable and well payed). My employer has a bunch of open positions, some of them unfilled for 6+ months. There just aren't that many people with the right skillset out there.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:13 am

ACDC8 wrote:
As I've pointed out in another thread, our City was going to implement a parking tax based on emissions and fuel economy of your car, but that proposal got axed because at this point in time, the people who cannot afford a newer more fuel efficient vehicle will be taxed unfairly.

I assume subsidies for the poor who can't even afford a cheap used car (and would face major issues if their current vehicle broke down) are out of the question? Doesn't even have to be an EV, there are options for affordable efficient ICE and hybrid vehicles too (e. g. Toyota Yaris or Prius hybrids with ~60 MPG).
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:23 am

mxaxai wrote:
there are options for affordable efficient ICE and hybrid vehicles too (e. g. Toyota Yaris or Prius hybrids with ~60 MPG).

There are - if you can find them, especially good condition hybrids, they go pretty quick for those who drive for Uber/Lyft. 11th Gen Corollas are hugely popular with Uber right now.

Fuel efficiency is only one side of the tax, the other side is emissions - older cars, regardless if fuel efficient or not, don't have the same emissions controls as newer cars - so, even tho someone might find a cheap older Yaris, they'll still pay more because it doesn't have the same emissions controls as a newer one would.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:36 am

ACDC8 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ICE vehicles will still be around but they will be expensive to own and operate, in Europe at least you won't be able to buy a new one, they will still remain popular in developing countries which don't have the infrastructure to go BEV.

I've never disagreed with that - I've simply said its not going to happen overnight.

Then it becomes a question, at least where I live, once no more new ICE vehicles are available (which will take years), there is still a very large market for used vehicles and how are we going to "tax" those vehicles as many of those vehicles will be needed by a very large part of our population that cannot afford a new vehicle nor a slightly used EV as the costs will still be out of reach for them.

As I've pointed out in another thread, our City was going to implement a parking tax based on emissions and fuel economy of your car, but that proposal got axed because at this point in time, the people who cannot afford a newer more fuel efficient vehicle will be taxed unfairly.

There is a lot more to EVs than just the environmental side of things - there are also economic and infrastructure, which makes things much more complicated in some countries than it does in others.

I've lived in Europe for many years, emissions taxes are nothing new to me and I have no qualms with them.


There's plenty of ways to tax ICE vehicles out of existence for the holdouts, increased vehicle registrations fees, increased fuel tax, road tax, tax per km driven, higher road tolls for ICE vehicles, increased insurance costs. My take is in the 2030's it will become increasingly more difficult to own and operate a ICE powered vehicle in most of the worlds developed economies.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:47 am

Kiwirob wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ICE vehicles will still be around but they will be expensive to own and operate, in Europe at least you won't be able to buy a new one, they will still remain popular in developing countries which don't have the infrastructure to go BEV.

I've never disagreed with that - I've simply said its not going to happen overnight.

Then it becomes a question, at least where I live, once no more new ICE vehicles are available (which will take years), there is still a very large market for used vehicles and how are we going to "tax" those vehicles as many of those vehicles will be needed by a very large part of our population that cannot afford a new vehicle nor a slightly used EV as the costs will still be out of reach for them.

As I've pointed out in another thread, our City was going to implement a parking tax based on emissions and fuel economy of your car, but that proposal got axed because at this point in time, the people who cannot afford a newer more fuel efficient vehicle will be taxed unfairly.

There is a lot more to EVs than just the environmental side of things - there are also economic and infrastructure, which makes things much more complicated in some countries than it does in others.

I've lived in Europe for many years, emissions taxes are nothing new to me and I have no qualms with them.



There's plenty of ways to tax ICE vehicles out of existence for the holdouts, increased vehicle registrations fees, increased fuel tax, road tax, tax per km driven, higher road tolls for ICE vehicles, increased insurance costs. My take is in the 2030's it will become increasingly more difficult to own and operate a ICE powered vehicle in most of the worlds developed economies.


On the money. Even in India, where there is no virtually no EV infrastructure to speak of, except by enterprising people as I shared some above, even here they are making ICE vehicles more expensive vis-a-vis EV's. The ones who are taking up the baton are the fleets though, ola and uber. Ola is a home-grown brand that provides the same features at slight lesser price points. We are still having pandemic lockdowns so implementation is still a bit sketchy. For the fleet owners and drivers they are dedicated chargers with stuff for drivers, a loo, a restaurant, buying toiletries etc. Retail 101 at work :)
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:26 am

Kiwirob wrote:
There's plenty of ways to tax ICE vehicles out of existence for the holdouts, increased vehicle registrations fees, increased fuel tax, road tax, tax per km driven, higher road tolls for ICE vehicles, increased insurance costs. My take is in the 2030's it will become increasingly more difficult to own and operate a ICE powered vehicle in most of the worlds developed economies.

I'm quite aware of the various possibilities - and yes, I am for certain they'll be implemented to some degree eventually, but its not easily done here, especially when we already are taxed through carbon taxes that go up year after year - regardless of what vehicle you drive, if you even drive one at all.
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:39 pm

just this morning I received an email from Subaru, about their new Solterra electric "SUV". I'm still laughing.

"Estimated range over 220 miles", and "only" an hour to charge to 80% on a L3 charger, whatever that is. If you define adventure as a trip to Starbucks it might work better than your bicycle, but pretty much a joke for any real off road or outdoor "adventure". But hey, it's got 8.3" of ground clearance, so you don't drag the front cover on the curb at Trader Joe's, and a 12.3" touchscreen, for whatever reason I'm still not sure.

Around half the range, and 10X the "fill up time" of my wife's Outback. What a joke, but I'm sure they will sell.
 
M564038
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:49 pm

220 Miles Davises seems nice to me. Or are you talking about the local, obscure american distance measuring unit defined as 1609.344 meters?

Yes. Subaru is one of those manufacturers that waited too long, and what they offer is too little, too late.
This is not up to par with the serious manufacturers.

On the other hand, it did turn out that the first gen. of medium sizes cars with 30kWhish batteries did a lot of good for a lot of people. A lot of people believing they needed 800Km range did awfully well with early Nissan Leafs. Range anxiety ain’t half of what people tgought it would be.

Now the standard hovers around 70kWh, which gives you around 500Km with a decently efficient car, with charging times of about 20-25 minutes to 80%.

Which means you can get 900Kms on a 20 minutes stop on a standard EV today. That is less than a bare minimum you need to stop to be safe on the road.

AABusDrvr wrote:
just this morning I received an email from Subaru, about their new Solterra electric "SUV". I'm still laughing.

"Estimated range over 220 miles", and "only" an hour to charge to 80% on a L3 charger, whatever that is. If you define adventure as a trip to Starbucks it might work better than your bicycle, but pretty much a joke for any real off road or outdoor "adventure". But hey, it's got 8.3" of ground clearance, so you don't drag the front cover on the curb at Trader Joe's, and a 12.3" touchscreen, for whatever reason I'm still not sure.

Around half the range, and 10X the "fill up time" of my wife's Outback. What a joke, but I'm sure they will sell.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:10 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
just this morning I received an email from Subaru, about their new Solterra electric "SUV". I'm still laughing.

"Estimated range over 220 miles", and "only" an hour to charge to 80% on a L3 charger, whatever that is. If you define adventure as a trip to Starbucks it might work better than your bicycle, but pretty much a joke for any real off road or outdoor "adventure". But hey, it's got 8.3" of ground clearance, so you don't drag the front cover on the curb at Trader Joe's, and a 12.3" touchscreen, for whatever reason I'm still not sure.

Around half the range, and 10X the "fill up time" of my wife's Outback. What a joke, but I'm sure they will sell.


Interesting personal opinion, I guess. The issue is that as much as manufacturers try to sell a lifestyle along with their cars, the reality is that those Starbucks runs kind of trips are in fact the vast majority of what those same vehicles are used for.

How many people buy large SUVs to go off road or on camping trips? How many people buy Suburbans to carry 7 or more people around? How many people buy pick up trucks to carry stuff in the bed?

The truth is that 99% of vehicles, regardless of their offroad, range or loading ability are used on nothing but the most mundane road-bound commutes, supermarket trips and soccer practice pick ups.

This is why EVs, while they might still lack some of the abilities of their ICE counterparts, are in fact already more than able to cover a vast majority of typical use cases for most consumers.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:03 pm

The transition will take time. And that is OK. For now owning an EV is mostly having one alongside an ICE vehicle as well. The ICE car is driven less for daily runs and commutes and used for longer distances or heavy loads etc. The ICE car in general has a lower acquisition cost and the EV has a much lower daily use and overall ownership cost (which will change as road taxes, aka "gas taxes" adjust to address them as well),

Each has their place at the moment. Each are solid options with optimal benefits for certain tasks over the other. That EV's have come so far so fast in the last five years is incredible and does speak to their ability to actually fulfill the role of a "primary vehicle" going forward.

But it will take time. And that is OK.

Tugg
 
ItnStln
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:07 pm

B777LRF wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
Are those prices before or after subsidies?


As far as I’ve been able to understand from the MB websites, those are net prices.

So including subsidies I take it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:31 pm

Tugger wrote:
The transition will take time. And that is OK. For now owning an EV is mostly having one alongside an ICE vehicle as well. The ICE car is driven less for daily runs and commutes and used for longer distances or heavy loads etc. The ICE car in general has a lower acquisition cost and the EV has a much lower daily use and overall ownership cost (which will change as road taxes, aka "gas taxes" adjust to address them as well),

Each has their place at the moment. Each are solid options with optimal benefits for certain tasks over the other. That EV's have come so far so fast in the last five years is incredible and does speak to their ability to actually fulfill the role of a "primary vehicle" going forward.

But it will take time. And that is OK.

Tugg



Image

EV sales are spiking.

https://www.ev-volumes.com/country/tota ... e-volumes/

ICE cars will survive in specialized areas for awhile, but there is a reason manufacturers are switching to EV.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:49 pm

In India, old cars are to be scrapped and even new ICE vehicles cannot run for more than 2030. So if anybody buys an ICE vehicle now, they will have to give it for scrap in what 8 years. You cannot resell those cars, you can't do anything. If you buy it, you can only use it and then put it into a scrapyard 8 years down the line.

https://www.bankbazaar.com/insurance/mo ... india.html

Guessing it will be same in other countries, sooner or later.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:52 pm

pune wrote:
In India, old cars are to be scrapped and even new ICE vehicles cannot run for more than 2030. So if anybody buys an ICE vehicle now, they will have to give it for scrap in what 8 years. You cannot resell those cars, you can't do anything. If you buy it, you can only use it and then put it into a scrapyard 8 years down the line.

https://www.bankbazaar.com/insurance/mo ... india.html

What recycling program do they have in place to recover all the vehicle batteries? How is India managing the large scale preprocessing of the battery elements to ensure no damage to the environment?

Tugg
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:08 pm

Tugger wrote:
pune wrote:
In India, old cars are to be scrapped and even new ICE vehicles cannot run for more than 2030. So if anybody buys an ICE vehicle now, they will have to give it for scrap in what 8 years. You cannot resell those cars, you can't do anything. If you buy it, you can only use it and then put it into a scrapyard 8 years down the line.

https://www.bankbazaar.com/insurance/mo ... india.html

What recycling program do they have in place to recover all the vehicle batteries? How is India managing the large scale preprocessing of the battery elements to ensure no damage to the environment?

Tugg


The above is for ICE vehicles only. For battery power, they are relying on manufacturers, similar to lithium batteries as they are given back to the reseller in the hopes it will be recycled in an appropriate manner. There is an 'informal' black/grey/ market where young kids use dangerous methods to try to ferret out any valuable materials. In this, at times they also lose life and limb and the Govt. knows about it but doesn't care.

The current Indian Government is hypocritical on a lot of things, for e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XtvgWO1zm8

This is more or less in line with most RW Governments of the day.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:09 pm

J.D. Power, once very pro-ICE now EV convert -

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/making-e ... 00995.html
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:17 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Prune - I'm sorry but you really don't know anything about the politics of the auto industry in the US and Canada.
Why do you think the Germans, Japanese and Koreans design and build cars in North America? It ain't because it's cheaper. Those countries know that you better build where you sell otherwise you are kept out of the market. And the more the Chinese threaten to "smash our skulls" the more likely it will be you see even more pushback against Chinese imports.

And the comment that all our auto manufacturers are losing is just wrong and ignorant of the facts. Ford and GM are actually about to make Tesla a diminishing player in EV's in North America. Maybe not so with ICE cars, the worst car sold in America recently was a small SUV Ford imported from India.


India lost its manufacturing about 5-6 years back. We had a robust MSME sector in many parts of the country. First came demonetization and then GST. And on top of that for exporters all sorts of new compliances. This has resulted in exports remaining stagnant and imports becoming more and more. The video I had shared above tells part of the issues.

The rest can be garnered from here -

https://theprint.in/economy/what-confli ... ry/811162/
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:41 am

pune wrote:
In India, old cars are to be scrapped and even new ICE vehicles cannot run for more than 2030. So if anybody buys an ICE vehicle now, they will have to give it for scrap in what 8 years. You cannot resell those cars, you can't do anything. If you buy it, you can only use it and then put it into a scrapyard 8 years down the line.

Could be so.

But nobody knows what will happen in India in 2030. India is even one of those many countries where you elect new leaders periodically. So we have no way to know what decisions will be made in India in 2029 or thereabout.

But it's pretty safe to assume that many decisions, which stand firm today, will have been changed, come 2030.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:19 am

prebennorholm wrote:
pune wrote:
In India, old cars are to be scrapped and even new ICE vehicles cannot run for more than 2030. So if anybody buys an ICE vehicle now, they will have to give it for scrap in what 8 years. You cannot resell those cars, you can't do anything. If you buy it, you can only use it and then put it into a scrapyard 8 years down the line.

Could be so.

But nobody knows what will happen in India in 2030. India is even one of those many countries where you elect new leaders periodically. So we have no way to know what decisions will be made in India in 2029 or thereabout.

But it's pretty safe to assume that many decisions, which stand firm today, will have been changed, come 2030.


Unless and until they are thinking to shirk their responsibilities under the climate change goals, they won't do that. Unless we have even a worse far-right Govt. who believes that climate change is a hoax and doesn't care. Then of course all bets are off.

As far as somebody shared other manufacturers are gonna do 1 up on Tesla, I dunno how. Tesla has been doing these over-the-air updates that increase the quality of life. None of the other manufacturers have been able to come close except for Nio (a Chinese automaker)

https://insideevs.com/news/563302/tesla ... ved-regen/

And all these updates add to value of car rather than negate.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:39 am

M564038 wrote:
220 Miles Davises seems nice to me. Or are you talking about the local, obscure american distance measuring unit defined as 1609.344 meters?

Yes. Subaru is one of those manufacturers that waited too long, and what they offer is too little, too late.
This is not up to par with the serious manufacturers.

On the other hand, it did turn out that the first gen. of medium sizes cars with 30kWhish batteries did a lot of good for a lot of people. A lot of people believing they needed 800Km range did awfully well with early Nissan Leafs. Range anxiety ain’t half of what people tgought it would be.

Now the standard hovers around 70kWh, which gives you around 500Km with a decently efficient car, with charging times of about 20-25 minutes to 80%.

Which means you can get 900Kms on a 20 minutes stop on a standard EV today. That is less than a bare minimum you need to stop to be safe on the road.


The Subaru is a Toyota BZR4, like the Toyota the Solterra has a 71.4 kWh lithium-ion battery pack, it will be available in 150 kW (201 hp) single-motor FWD and 160 kW (214 hp) dual-motor AWD configurations. Subaru is targeting a WLTC range of 530 km (329 miles) from the Solterra FWD and 460 km (286 miles) from the Solterra AWD. Which fits into your standard.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:46 am

About taxing ICE cars out of existence, you can also ban them. In Europe some countries have implemented low emission zones from which older cars are already excluded (unless converted to electric), you just have to lower and lower the definition of a polluting car until only electric/hydrogen vehicles are allowed in the zone. Technically not banned, and the countryside will always be available, but the utility of the car diminishes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-emission_zone
Last edited by Aesma on Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:47 am

And there's another bit about those worried about energy. This is U.S. centric but have seen/heard of the same from UK too -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJiglrYgJY
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:24 am

And this is how those who are working in auto factories are not taken care of -

https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.c ... s/89134282

I know of a friend of mine, he had a disc failure due to heavy machinery falling on him, the auto company just gave him a 1-month salary as compensation. And this is about a decade back, the personal experience that I'm sharing.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:35 pm

While not quite on topic I do not think existing ICE cars should be junked. Over time they should be relegated to lower mileage and more rural uses. There replacement entails the production of another vehicle which does have an environmental cost.
 
M564038
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:38 pm

I you think twice about this, you’ll realize that the numbers has been crunched thoroughly on this and the results are in:
Junk them the sooner the better.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
While not quite on topic I do not think existing ICE cars should be junked. Over time they should be relegated to lower mileage and more rural uses. There replacement entails the production of another vehicle which does have an environmental cost.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:58 pm

The number are in to ramp up battery and EV production as rapidly as possible, and even with large subsidies. The numbers are not in to junk all ICEs.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:30 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The number are in to ramp up battery and EV production as rapidly as possible, and even with large subsidies. The numbers are not enough to junk all ICEs.


Probably currently, but in a few years who knows. I did fix your statement a bit. Also just came across this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttKXpRrddOY

Interestingly, one of the commentators commented that in Germany there has been a lot of articles tarnishing EV as big oil holds the advertisement purses. And hence more than a significant number of engineers and technical people are against EV's and have biases against them. And because they have biases, they are not learning the skills they would need and it is also hurting the chance of Germany producing decent EV cars.

I remember seeing this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcXjVxaKzv4 (produced by DW news, apparently those who want to make EV usually shift to China.)

As well as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZ78J6AqVc
 
M564038
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:48 pm

Obviously you can’t junk Jurassic cars faster than you can produce replacements, but from an environmental standpoint it is better to produce an EV than to use a Dinosaur.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The number are in to ramp up battery and EV production as rapidly as possible, and even with large subsidies. The numbers are not in to junk all ICEs.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:23 am

And it seems that in LFP cars, you can fill it up and go. So fill up for 5-10 minutes and you have energy for another 100-150 odd km. And you could potentially go on doing that without loss in range. Although with LFP, you can fill it up to 100%, unlike lithium where you are supposed to charge only up to 80%. That's the reason Elon Musk said that LFP batteries are the present and the future.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:11 pm

pune wrote:
In India, old cars are to be scrapped and even new ICE vehicles cannot run for more than 2030. So if anybody buys an ICE vehicle now, they will have to give it for scrap in what 8 years. You cannot resell those cars, you can't do anything. If you buy it, you can only use it and then put it into a scrapyard 8 years down the line.

https://www.bankbazaar.com/insurance/mo ... india.html

Guessing it will be same in other countries, sooner or later.


Haha, seriously? But what about the bottom 99.95% of Indians, who cannot afford a Tesla style car?

Realistically, we both probably agree the top 0.05% are in charge (same is true in the US). But won't Indians become frustrated by the lack of transportation?
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:01 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
pune wrote:
In India, old cars are to be scrapped and even new ICE vehicles cannot run for more than 2030. So if anybody buys an ICE vehicle now, they will have to give it for scrap in what 8 years. You cannot resell those cars, you can't do anything. If you buy it, you can only use it and then put it into a scrapyard 8 years down the line.

https://www.bankbazaar.com/insurance/mo ... india.html

Guessing it will be same in other countries, sooner or later.


Haha, seriously? But what about the bottom 99.95% of Indians, who cannot afford a Tesla style car?

Realistically, we both probably agree the top 0.05% are in charge (same is true in the US). But won't Indians become frustrated by the lack of transportation?


You are underestimating the changes. What will happen and is happening is fleets are being converted into EVs. And it does make sense from a business and economic point of view. Unlike many other people, the drivers would know when to come back to a centralized charging station. Let's say there are 4-5 stations throughout the city, they will know where to go and get the car charged. They will also keep in mind any self-charging EV stops as it comes up. It is after all their livelihood. And as has been seen, the running costs of an EV are much lower, 50% of a conventional car so they could lower their charges a bit and it is a win-win for both short and long-term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khq1QLUJQ2c


Both ola and Uber have given statements that their whole fleet would be converted into EV in the next 2-3 years. And that is on whole pan-India basis.
 
pune
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:27 pm

Tesla shares Q4 results -

https://insideevs.com/news/563824/tesla ... -dropping/

And this is where their shrewdness comes. They not only build their own batteries, but they have contractual battery supply with all suppliers, CATL, BYD, Panaonic, LG chem and one more whose name I have forgotten. All the others, just having one supplier. What happens when there is a problem with the battery, the whole thing stops. Just like it did with GM as they had no plan B :(
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:48 pm

pune wrote:
Both ola and Uber have given statements that their whole fleet would be converted into EV in the next 2-3 years. And that is on whole pan-India basis.

Unless Uber is different in India than in the rest of the world - Uber doesn't have a fleet - they don't even have a single car. Sure, they might change their requirements, but that requires literally no investment on their part.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:58 pm

pune wrote:
The mass-manufacture AFAIK would ba happening in China, not Japan. Japan doesn't have batteries, or the powertrain and whatnot is needed. IF one actually wants to see, one needs to see the history of RAV4EV as to how many they made and how many they sold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV


Rav4s, including the Prime is not built by BYD and is not built in China (other than maybe some specific models for some specific markets like the Chinese domestic market) - you're not understanding what a partnership is.

pune wrote:
Interestingly, they only made roughly 1500 in the first generation and double of that in the second generation but with a lot of help from the company that you love to hate, Tesla. And I did see you kept silent about electric misinformation they are spewing day in and day out. Below is their ad not just 2 months ago. Why would you trash EV and talk about hybrids, tells where your loyalties lie (here by you, I mean Toyota).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPFFxsC4gq0

sam helpfully also shows the pamphlet which they send to schoolchildren all over Japan telling EV's are bad and hybrids and fuel-cell cars (which is still a dream) are the good things. This is how brainwashing begins.

LOL - no where have I ever said EVs were bad. Honestly, this is like the 4th time you've made up false assumptions.

Unless you can provide a direct quote of what I've said - please do not make false comments or point of views on my behalf. Thanks.

One thing you did get right is that yes, I don't like Tesla's - but that has nothing to do with EVs, it has everything to do with them being ugly cars - learn the difference. Just like the Prius, I hate the Prius - but that has nothing to do with the fact that its a Hybrid, its simply an ugly car.

Speaking of hybrids, what issue do you have with them? They're a step in the right direction, mass adoption of EVs is not going to happen over night, thats not an opinion, thats a fact, and I'm sorry that that offends you and Greta, but thats simply the reality of things - at least hybrids offer a realistic, although temporary compromise in functionality while reducing emissions.
 
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Exrampieyyz
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:14 pm

Public transit is great for downtown urban centers. I live just outside a mid size city and have no bus service. Its about a 20 minute drive to large shopping centers. But when I do go into town or by our large college (not peak times) all I see are buses driving around with very few people on them. So not too fuel efficient. There is no way to fix that but I don't think public transit is nearly as green as it's promoted.
As for an EV. I drive a VW Golf and get 35 to 50 MPG so pretty good. But I think I could see me in an EV for my next vehicle.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:27 pm

Please remember to provide a link to your source when stating fcts, thanks.
 
M564038
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:36 pm

Did you just delete a bunch of posts no one had a problem with? There are facts stated in EVERY post, so you are not making sense, thank you.


SQ22 wrote:
Please remember to provide a link to your source when stating fcts, thanks.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:06 pm

M564038 wrote:
Did you just delete a bunch of posts no one had a problem with? There are facts stated in EVERY post, so you are not making sense, thank you.


SQ22 wrote:
Please remember to provide a link to your source when stating fcts, thanks.


As stated above and in the forum rules, please provide a link to your source when stating facts. All other posts were providing sources, but were referencing to the one without a source, hence they had to be deleted as well. For further discussion please write to [email protected] and keep this discussion out of the thread. Thanks.
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