Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
 
M564038
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:27 pm

Lets go again then.
There where more Porsche Taycans than petrol cars sold in Norway in january 2022.
(Source as always https://ofv.no/)
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:57 pm

FWIW, posting it again as buses have shown to be less efficient than cars but only under specific conditions and that too is of data of 2011 vintage. If it was today, we never know what the efficiency of buses would be. And there is a big big difference, in 2011 in the stats. shared there were no EV buses. EV buses are entirely a different kettle of fish than diesel buses.

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/ques ... -than-cars


https://blog.ucsusa.org/jimmy-odea/elec ... e-climate/
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:13 pm

And Norway sharing its green credentials -

https://www.visitnorway.com/plan-your-t ... tric-cars/
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:57 am

M564038 wrote:
Lets go again then.
There where more Porsche Taycans than petrol cars sold in Norway in january 2022.
(Source as always https://ofv.no/)


And a bit more to Porsche Taycan, going from coast to coast in North America and charging only 2.5 hrs. for the whole journey -

https://insideevs.com/news/563777/porsc ... ss-record/

Setting up a Guinness world record in the process.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:57 am

pune wrote:
And a bit more to Porsche Taycan, going from coast to coast in North America and charging only 2.5 hrs. for the whole journey -

https://insideevs.com/news/563777/porsc ... ss-record/

Setting up a Guinness world record in the process.

While I absolutely love the Taycan - for the starting price here in Canada, I can buy myself a Corolla which will last me an easy 15 years or more and a literal lifetime of fuel.

Give me a reliable EV that will last me at least 10 years with minimal battery deterioration, 800km range, 5 min charging with minimal battery deterioration for the $30000 CAD mark and I'll be interested - until then, they can set all the world records they want.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:10 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
And a bit more to Porsche Taycan, going from coast to coast in North America and charging only 2.5 hrs. for the whole journey -

https://insideevs.com/news/563777/porsc ... ss-record/

Setting up a Guinness world record in the process.

While I absolutely love the Taycan - for the starting price here in Canada, I can buy myself a Corolla which will last me an easy 15 years or more and a literal lifetime of fuel.


I wouldn't take that bet, sepecially the 'literal lifetime of fuel' especially with the way the energy prices are moving.

What is interesting however is that the gentleman did approximately 4500 km of the road trip in 6 days and he did something called 'hypermiling' or slipstreaming behind a truck or trucks and going at 40 mph which is far faster than in India. The gentleman did 18 odd stops and the whole trip took 6 days. I think more than anything else, it shows that people can do long trips if they apply themselves properly. Now, most of his stops were of 10-15 mins per charge and those charge times will only improve. For e.g. Lucid Air or GAIC Aeon plus (from China) would need half the charges that Taycan needed and probably at half the pricing. And mind you, they didn't use Tesla superchargers but Electrify America chargers that arguably charge less power. Obviously even electrify America would be looking at higher capacity chargers as EV vehicles continue to improve.

So all in all, things will continue to improve, no such improvement is expected in ICE cars. And has been shared, again and again, charging and the whole science is still in its infancy over the 100+ years of fossil fuels. When 800 volt systems are there and most drivers would do a full charge overnight or say 3-4 hrs. at night, what was shared would become just a memory.

So lot of potential for improvement and change and for those who have range anxiety, perhaps they need to look at something else.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:16 am

The con call CCS or hydrogen capture -

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/24/shell-c ... -says.html
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:26 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
And a bit more to Porsche Taycan, going from coast to coast in North America and charging only 2.5 hrs. for the whole journey -

https://insideevs.com/news/563777/porsc ... ss-record/

Setting up a Guinness world record in the process.

While I absolutely love the Taycan - for the starting price here in Canada, I can buy myself a Corolla which will last me an easy 15 years or more and a literal lifetime of fuel.

Give me a reliable EV that will last me at least 10 years with minimal battery deterioration, 800km range, 5 min charging with minimal battery deterioration for the $30000 CAD mark and I'll be interested - until then, they can set all the world records they want.


Well, 2 out of 3 is not bad -

https://insideevs.com/news/559060/gac-a ... 8km-range/

Both Lucid and GIAC Aion seem to be nearing what you need, probably another couple of years, you might even get at the pricing you want as more EV cars and compete.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:37 am

pune wrote:
I wouldn't take that bet, sepecially the 'literal lifetime of fuel' especially with the way the energy prices are moving.

Fuel right now is about $1.70 a litre here - it would cost me about $85 to fill a Corolla up, that full tank lasts me about a month, so thats about $1020 a year in fuel costs.

New Corolla SE Upgrade costs me about $30000 taxes in (I could go even cheaper with a base L). A Taycan starts at $120000 plus tax. So, thats a difference of $90000 (actually its more, as I didn't add the tax for the Taycan) - regardless, $90000 at $1020 a year would be 88 years. Now of course, fuel costs will go up, so I'll be very generous and go with $5 a litre, so that would cost me about $250 to fill up the car, or around $3000 a year - thats still 30 years of fuel.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:07 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
I wouldn't take that bet, sepecially the 'literal lifetime of fuel' especially with the way the energy prices are moving.

Fuel right now is about $1.70 a litre here - it would cost me about $85 to fill a Corolla up, that full tank lasts me about a month, so thats about $1020 a year in fuel costs.

New Corolla SE Upgrade costs me about $30000 taxes in (I could go even cheaper with a base L). A Taycan starts at $120000 plus tax. So, thats a difference of $90000 (actually its more, as I didn't add the tax for the Taycan) - regardless, $90000 at $1020 a year would be 88 years. Now of course, fuel costs will go up, so I'll be very generous and go with $5 a litre, so that would cost me about $250 to fill up the car, or around $3000 a year - thats still 30 years of fuel.


My dear, who will give you service in 30 years, don't think you have that much time. And anyway, I did see you felt not right to comment about the other two vehicles. As has been shared, this will be more and more. ICE would be in 5-10 years where horse-carriages are today.

https://insideevs.com/news/563809/ev-ch ... ts-vs-gas/
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:11 am

Here's a little bit more from the horse's mouth -

http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index ... hgELW9L54I

As shared by him, he did that with less than 80 dollars coast to coast, looking forward to knowing which diesel car will give that kind of return.

That thread gives all kinds of understanding, really worth a read.

The whole video -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6XgaTCJUWo
Last edited by pune on Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:22 am

pune wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:

My dear, who will give you service in 30 years, don't think you have that much time. And anyway, I did see you felt not right to comment about the other two vehicles. As has been shared, this will be more and more. ICE would be in 5-10 years where horse-carriages are today.

https://insideevs.com/news/563809/ev-ch ... ts-vs-gas/

Plenty of places will provide service in 30 years, including dealerships - just like they still do with horse and carriage. Don't be fooled into believing that ICE vehicles will be completely gone in 30 years, let alone servicing them ... my dear.

The other two vehicles, did they set world records as well? My comment was about the Taycan.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:32 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:

Plenty of places will provide service in 30 years, including dealerships - just like they still do with horse and carriage. Don't be fooled into believing that ICE vehicles will be completely gone in 30 years, let alone servicing them ... my dear.

The other two vehicles, did they set world records as well? My comment was about the Taycan.


That is the reason I shared the whole thing. And I did see you preferred to remain quiet about the cost of fuel for EV. As far as TCO for EV vehicles is concerned, there are a dime a dozen. And there is nothing to be fooled. Who would want to be in high-cost space when it comes cheaper and cheaper to own EV, as well as resale value of ICE cars, becomes zero due to a number of issues, as has happened in Norway and other places in Europe.

https://cleantechnica.com/tag/ev-tco/

Your reasoning begins to fail when even African countries like Rwanda are looking at economics for EV's. I am sure you will not admit it, but that's ok.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/01/rw ... ric-buses/
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:29 am

pune wrote:
That is the reason I shared the whole thing. And I did see you preferred to remain quiet about the cost of fuel for EV. As far as TCO for EV vehicles is concerned, there are a dime a dozen.

Where have I remained quiet about the cost of fuel? But on that topic, electricity ain't gonna be free forever and it will become more expensive year after year as more money needs to be invested in infrastructure and with the reduction in gasoline tax revenue you can bet your backside the Government is coming for its pound of flesh. Hope you're saving your pennies.
pune wrote:
And there is nothing to be fooled. Who would want to be in high-cost space when it comes cheaper and cheaper to own EV, as well as resale value of ICE cars, becomes zero due to a number of issues, as has happened in Norway and other places in Europe.

https://cleantechnica.com/tag/ev-tco/

LOL - now just think about that for two seconds and lets do some simple budgeting. Right now, at least here in Canada, EVs are expensive - now, there's no doubt that that cost will come down over the years, but until then, only a fool would put themselves into massive amounts of debt just for the sake of being "green" when they could be a bit money smart, buy something economical and save all that money (even though you're paying for fuel) and when the time comes and EVs have come down in price, you'd actually be in a better financial position to buy an EV.

Here's an example, right now I'm looking at the Corolla for my next vehicle. I like that the hybrid cuts my fuel bill in half, but here's the catch, it'll cost me about $4000 more to purchase than a better equipped ICE version. The dealership is trying to sell me on it that it'll save me $500-600 annually in fuel. But at $4000 difference, it would take me almost 7 years to recoup that savings - 17 years if I were to go with a similarly equipped base model ICE. So, if I got that base model, with the money I save, I would easily have enough money to put towards an EV.
pune wrote:
Your reasoning begins to fail when even African countries like Rwanda are looking at economics for EV's. I am sure you will not admit it, but that's ok.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/01/rw ... ric-buses/

I've already discussed EV and transit in this thread and other threads.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:37 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
That is the reason I shared the whole thing. And I did see you preferred to remain quiet about the cost of fuel for EV. As far as TCO for EV vehicles is concerned, there are a dime a dozen.

Where have I remained quiet about the cost of fuel? But on that topic, electricity ain't gonna be free forever and it will become more expensive year after year as more money needs to be invested in infrastructure and with the reduction in gasoline tax revenue you can bet your backside the Government is coming for its pound of flesh. Hope you're saving your pennies.
pune wrote:
And there is nothing to be fooled. Who would want to be in high-cost space when it comes cheaper and cheaper to own EV, as well as resale value of ICE cars, becomes zero due to a number of issues, as has happened in Norway and other places in Europe.

https://cleantechnica.com/tag/ev-tco/

LOL - now just think about that for two seconds and lets do some simple budgeting. Right now, at least here in Canada, EVs are expensive - now, there's no doubt that that cost will come down over the years, but until then, only a fool would put themselves into massive amounts of debt just for the sake of being "green" when they could be a bit money smart, buy something economical and save all that money (even though you're paying for fuel) and when the time comes and EVs have come down in price, you'd actually be in a better financial position to buy an EV.

Here's an example, right now I'm looking at the Corolla for my next vehicle. I like that the hybrid cuts my fuel bill in half, but here's the catch, it'll cost me about $4000 more to purchase than a better equipped ICE version. The dealership is trying to sell me on it that it'll save me $500-600 annually in fuel. But at $4000 difference, it would take me almost 7 years to recoup that savings - 17 years if I were to go with a similarly equipped base model ICE. So, if I got that base model, with the money I save, I would easily have enough money to put towards an EV.
pune wrote:
Your reasoning begins to fail when even African countries like Rwanda are looking at economics for EV's. I am sure you will not admit it, but that's ok.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/01/rw ... ric-buses/

I've already discussed EV and transit in this thread and other threads.


I do agree that electricity will go up year or year but again if people want to, they will have investments as shared via UK right-wing press, even they are able to smell when the wind is shifting.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... nergy.html
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:02 am

pune wrote:
I do agree that electricity will go up year or year but again if people want to, they will have investments as shared via UK right-wing press, even they are able to smell when the wind is shifting.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... nergy.html

Must be nice - here in BC that would never be allowed - takes money away from a Crown corporation. There was a household in the town I used to live in, he tired that about 10 years ago with a wind turbine - it got shut down within a couple of months. If you live within city limits, you must by law, have electricity delivered by an approved vendor. Our house, although we had hydro installed, being well outside of any municipal jurisdiction also had a fully sustainable self generating (solar) electrical grid - while we could use it for our own purposes, we could not sell or give it away. Same went for our heating, it was completely self sustainable through an external boiler powered by placing about half a dozen logs on the fire per day and that provided hot water for the kitchen, bathroom, pool/hottub and radiant floor heating.

Now, you can generate your own electricity and sell it to BC Hydro, but best estimates say that it'll take about 25 years to recoup your costs.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:19 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
I do agree that electricity will go up year or year but again if people want to, they will have investments as shared via UK right-wing press, even they are able to smell when the wind is shifting.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... nergy.html

Must be nice - here in BC that would never be allowed - takes money away from a Crown corporation. There was a household in the town I used to live in, he tried that about 10 years ago with a wind turbine - it got shut down within a couple of months. If you live within city limits, you must by law, have electricity delivered by an approved vendor. Our house, although we had hydro installed, being well outside of any municipal jurisdiction also had a fully sustainable self-generating (solar) electrical grid - while we could use it for our own purposes, we could not sell or give it away. The same went for our heating, it was completely self-sustainable through an external boiler powered by placing about half a dozen logs on the fire per day and that provided hot water for the kitchen, bathroom, pool/hot tub, and radiant floor heating.

Now, you can generate your own electricity and sell it to BC Hydro, but best estimates say that it'll take about 25 years to recoup your costs.


Well if Canadian lawmakers are not smelling the coffee, then that's up to them. The same is the case in the U.S. especially GM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjvrx62olg

Those who won't, they will be left behind, time waits for no one. Fixed a bit of your statements so they made more sense.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4244
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:23 am

M564038 wrote:
Lets go again then.
There where more Porsche Taycans than petrol cars sold in Norway in january 2022.
(Source as always https://ofv.no/)


Because the Taycan costs the same or less than a decently-specced family sedan.

Other countries don't have the luxury of allowing that kind of hole in their fiscal sheet.

https://www.wired.com/story/norway-elec ... hicle-tax/
 
M564038
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:42 am

The Taycan is waaaay more expensive than a family sedan. It is not an everyman EV. It does, however, tell you a lot about how rare petrol cars has become.
JJJ wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Lets go again then.
There where more Porsche Taycans than petrol cars sold in Norway in january 2022.
(Source as always https://ofv.no/)


Because the Taycan costs the same or less than a decently-specced family sedan.

Other countries don't have the luxury of allowing that kind of hole in their fiscal sheet.

https://www.wired.com/story/norway-elec ... hicle-tax/
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:44 am

pune wrote:
Well if Canadian lawmakers are not smelling the coffee, then that's up to them.


Those who won't, they will be left behind, time waits for no one. [/quote]
We'll do just fine - but thanks for your concern :thumbsup:
pune wrote:
Fixed a bit of your statements so they made more sense.

And what in my statement doesn't make "sense"?
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:57 am

M564038 wrote:
The Taycan is waaaay more expensive than a family sedan. It is not an everyman EV. It does, however, tell you a lot about how rare petrol cars has become.

I don't know the Norwegian market, so I'm just comparing what I found on various websites. On the Norwegian VW website, the Tiguan lists for about 458000 Kr and the Taycan lists for 777000 Kr, so thats a price difference of 69%. Now, granted, I don't know what extra costs/taxes are involved in the two vehicles, thats just the list price.

For comparison, the Tiguan in Canada starts at about $33000 and the Taycan $119000, which is a difference of 260%.

Now, interestingly, the VW ID4 starts at 406600 Kr, which is less than the Tiguan but here in Canada, the ID4 starts at about $45000, so in Norway, the ID4 costs 11 percent less than the Tiguan, while in Canada the ID4 would cost 36% more. Now granted, currently the ID4 does qualify for Federal and Provincial rebates (varies from Province to Province) which covers some of the tax, but still, in the end, it would cost more.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4244
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:15 am

ACDC8 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
The Taycan is waaaay more expensive than a family sedan. It is not an everyman EV. It does, however, tell you a lot about how rare petrol cars has become.

I don't know the Norwegian market, so I'm just comparing what I found on various websites. On the Norwegian VW website, the Tiguan lists for about 458000 Kr and the Taycan lists for 777000 Kr, so thats a price difference of 69%. Now, granted, I don't know what extra costs/taxes are involved in the two vehicles, thats just the list price.


A Diesel 200hp TDI Passat starts at 645K Kr, spec it up a little and you have a base Taycan there.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:43 am

There will be plenty of low-end and mid-tier EV vehicles sold this year itself. For e.g. VW e-up, Nissan Micra, Ford Feista and so on and so forth. By the end of the year 2022, Tesla itself has targeted 2 million EV vehicles, those include Model 3 and Model Y and some plaid. The Chinese automakers will sell another 2-3 million by this year-end and other manufacturers say another million or two, so by year-end it would be 5-6 million of new EV vehicles on roads.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:45 am

Meanwhile, I totally expect Canada to be a similar story to India, a case of missed opportunities.

https://www.livemint.com/politics/polic ... 91243.html
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:58 am

pune wrote:
VW e-up,

Not available in North America.
pune wrote:
Nissan Micra,

Not available in North America.
pune wrote:
Ford Feista

Not available in North America.
pune wrote:
and so on

Not available in North America.
pune wrote:
and so forth.

Not available in North America.

We do have the Chevy Bolt though - $41000 for a car nobody wants.
pune wrote:
Meanwhile, I totally expect Canada to be a similar story to India, a case of missed opportunities.

https://www.livemint.com/politics/polic ... 91243.html

C'est la vie
Last edited by ACDC8 on Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:59 am

JJJ wrote:
A Diesel 200hp TDI Passat starts at 645K Kr, spec it up a little and you have a base Taycan there.

Yeah, I didn't even bother looking at other models - I just looked at something that was similar if not a direct comparison between the two markets.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4244
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:06 am

ACDC8 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A Diesel 200hp TDI Passat starts at 645K Kr, spec it up a little and you have a base Taycan there.

Yeah, I didn't even bother looking at other models - I just looked at something that was similar if not a direct comparison between the two markets.


Just to check, the car I'm currently driving (the biggest diesel engine Giulia) is not even sold there anymore, but before it was pulled cracked 700K, too.

I mean, it's perfectly ok that Norwegian politicians have this mandate for clean transportation if that's what their voters want, but the Norwegian example is built on massive tax advantages of electric vs ICE vehicles. The irony being their oil&gas reserves is what allows them to basically waive a big part of their fiscal budget in the first place.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:26 am

JJJ wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
A Diesel 200hp TDI Passat starts at 645K Kr, spec it up a little and you have a base Taycan there.

Yeah, I didn't even bother looking at other models - I just looked at something that was similar if not a direct comparison between the two markets.


Just to check, the car I'm currently driving (the biggest diesel engine Giulia) is not even sold there anymore, but before it was pulled cracked 700K, too.

I mean, it's perfectly ok that Norwegian politicians have this mandate for clean transportation if that's what their voters want, but the Norwegian example is built on massive tax advantages of electric vs ICE vehicles. The irony being their oil&gas reserves is what allows them to basically waive a big part of their fiscal budget in the first place.


This may be true, but then what about the Chinese, they are also churning EV vehicles by the millions and in fact have made licenses for running diesel and petrol vehicles more and more expensive and other taxes. And what I shared about Norway is actually being mirrored all over Europe. For e.g. had shared it a while ago -

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/12/de ... -now-what/
 
JJJ
Posts: 4244
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:12 pm

pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Yeah, I didn't even bother looking at other models - I just looked at something that was similar if not a direct comparison between the two markets.


Just to check, the car I'm currently driving (the biggest diesel engine Giulia) is not even sold there anymore, but before it was pulled cracked 700K, too.

I mean, it's perfectly ok that Norwegian politicians have this mandate for clean transportation if that's what their voters want, but the Norwegian example is built on massive tax advantages of electric vs ICE vehicles. The irony being their oil&gas reserves is what allows them to basically waive a big part of their fiscal budget in the first place.


This may be true, but then what about the Chinese, they are also churning EV vehicles by the millions and in fact have made licenses for running diesel and petrol vehicles more and more expensive and other taxes. And what I shared about Norway is actually being mirrored all over Europe. For e.g. had shared it a while ago -

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/12/de ... -now-what/


In Chinese big cities you enter a lottery system to get your license plate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing%2 ... se_Lottery

NEV vehicles get preferential quotas.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-12-30/B ... index.html

For example, 70.000 of the new license plates in Beijing will be for EVs, and just 30.000 for ICE cars.

Price parity isn't there yet without massive government intervention.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:00 pm

JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Just to check, the car I'm currently driving (the biggest diesel engine Giulia) is not even sold there anymore, but before it was pulled cracked 700K, too.

I mean, it's perfectly ok that Norwegian politicians have this mandate for clean transportation if that's what their voters want, but the Norwegian example is built on massive tax advantages of electric vs ICE vehicles. The irony being their oil&gas reserves is what allows them to basically waive a big part of their fiscal budget in the first place.


This may be true, but then what about the Chinese, they are also churning EV vehicles by the millions and in fact have made licenses for running diesel and petrol vehicles more and more expensive and other taxes. And what I shared about Norway is actually being mirrored all over Europe. For e.g. had shared it a while ago -

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/12/de ... -now-what/


In Chinese big cities you enter a lottery system to get your license plate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing%2 ... se_Lottery

NEV vehicles get preferential quotas.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-12-30/B ... index.html

For example, 70.000 of the new license plates in Beijing will be for EVs, and just 30.000 for ICE cars.

Price parity isn't there yet without massive government intervention.


From what I know, this year they are going to massively reduce the subsidies but as I have shared before, even LED lights are subsidized in India, much more than Incandescent bulbs but nobody buys Incandescent bulbs anymore. The luminescence provided by LED bulbs is far greater than Incandescent bulbs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out ... ight_bulbs

In fact, in U.S. the Trump Administration even had issues with that. Just goes to show how much status-quoist that 'gentleman' and his administration was.

The Indian action -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out ... ulbs#India - My state Maharashtra also did the change, although not mentioned.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:54 pm

This was in UK, the same thing happening in India, the only difference in UK it's Russia, in India, it is the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JD-Y9DFbN8

FWIW pre-2014 we were getting oil, gas from Iran at around $30-40 per barrel. Under this Govt. we are buying the same from the U.S. at $90 a barrel and on top of that massive hikes in taxes. Also similar to UK, India also decreased it storage capacities (Govt. owned storage).

And whatever was shared by the labor representative in the UK House of Commons, the same could be said of India. That is one of the reasons why I find UK politics fascinating. Even though we are relatively a young republic (we got our freedom from the UK in 1947) and they had 200+ years of parliament process but still the politics of the two countries are so similar. Same arguments put by both right-wing parties and similar policies. High taxation in both countries from before the pandemic.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4244
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:09 pm

pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:

This may be true, but then what about the Chinese, they are also churning EV vehicles by the millions and in fact have made licenses for running diesel and petrol vehicles more and more expensive and other taxes. And what I shared about Norway is actually being mirrored all over Europe. For e.g. had shared it a while ago -

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/12/de ... -now-what/


In Chinese big cities you enter a lottery system to get your license plate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing%2 ... se_Lottery

NEV vehicles get preferential quotas.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-12-30/B ... index.html

For example, 70.000 of the new license plates in Beijing will be for EVs, and just 30.000 for ICE cars.

Price parity isn't there yet without massive government intervention.


From what I know, this year they are going to massively reduce the subsidies but as I have shared before,


Mandating 70% of new cars having a plug is the absolute opposite of a massive subsidy reduction.

Without favourable tax policies or massive restrictions EVs remain a niche application.

It might or might not change, but that's just how it is.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:31 pm

JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:

In Chinese big cities you enter a lottery system to get your license plate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing%2 ... se_Lottery

NEV vehicles get preferential quotas.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-12-30/B ... index.html

For example, 70.000 of the new license plates in Beijing will be for EVs, and just 30.000 for ICE cars.

Price parity isn't there yet without massive government intervention.


From what I know, this year they are going to massively reduce the subsidies but as I have shared before,


Mandating 70% of new cars having a plug is the absolute opposite of a massive subsidy reduction.

Without favorable tax policies or massive restrictions, EVs remain a niche application.

It might or might not change, but that's just how it is.


Then one could say that countries should not have signed up on COP26 or even earlier climate change agreements. This is all coming from science. Either say or prove that climate change is a hoax. If you believe it is not, it is a belief because it is up to people to whether or not believe scientific proof. So if you believe that climate change is true, and humanity is the one responsible for it, then you have to reduce your greenhouse emissions, one of the biggest being transport. And there are more than enough studies to show that humanity is the cause of it.

The latest which is now 2-3 years old was taking old and new trees and putting them in fire and seeing how the emissions were and there was a huge difference in trees from 14th-15th century onwards and before in the way the emissions happened. Even in the digging of ice, that has been known and so many different ways. Of course, some people think there is nothing to worry and even if we were to become extinct, we would go to Mars and live or some such thing (flights of fancy.)
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 5419
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:22 pm

It is not a useful argument ignoring the important tole ICEs will have over the next twenty years, maybe a little longer. Nor noticing that EVs are about to enter that almost exponential curve in market share, even in the US. I suspect posters on this thread may all agree.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:59 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
It is not a useful argument ignoring the important tole ICEs will have over the next twenty years, maybe a little longer. Nor noticing that EVs are about to enter that almost exponential curve in market share, even in the US. I suspect posters on this thread may all agree.


I don't think so, if it had then they wouldn't have had to try to play all those games. Toyota is the biggest of all. What it did, in 2014 it gave land to Tesla to build the factory, the cost of which to Tesla was 10% to what it costs to Toyota which means a loss to Toyota by 90%.

As far as Tesla is concerned, it has the highest profit percentage-wise (even without the credits) 31 percent which no legacy automaker can even touch.

Source - https://insideevs.com/news/563533/tesla ... nuary2022/

And of course, the ramp for Tesla this year and next year would be phenomenal. How much they are producing, they have that much backlog. That is the reason they can raise their prices. One could argue subjectively how good or bad Tesla is, but the results speak for themselves. Most other automakers are deeply in red as have shared again and again. They just can't compete on technology hence all the FUD.

People also forget that Tesla had done multiple redundancy in their cars, other automakers sadly have not :(

People would do well to remember IBM and Eastman Kodak, both companies which were largely profitable at one point of time, and now a mere shadow of themselves, because they didn't innovate. Even Nokia.
 
wingman
Posts: 4299
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:15 pm

Talking about the options here in the US, I happen to be in market this year for my next 8 year vehicle and I was leaning heavily towards the Ioniq 5. But alas, the first vehicles on the lot all come with massive dealer mark ups, 6-9k! Id never buy a Tesla just for the quality issues but I doff my cap at their direct to consumer model. One reason they’re so profitable surely is that they get all of the profit and not the swine dealers.
 
M564038
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:58 pm

Thats insane stuff.
Shame on them.
I tested the Ioniq 5 and really enjoyed it!

wingman wrote:
Talking about the options here in the US, I happen to be in market this year for my next 8 year vehicle and I was leaning heavily towards the Ioniq 5. But alas, the first vehicles on the lot all come with massive dealer mark ups, 6-9k! Id never buy a Tesla just for the quality issues but I doff my cap at their direct to consumer model. One reason they’re so profitable surely is that they get all of the profit and not the swine dealers.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:45 am

wingman wrote:
Talking about the options here in the US, I happen to be in the market this year for my next 8-year vehicle and I was leaning heavily towards the Ioniq 5. But alas, the first vehicles on the lot all come with massive dealer markups, 6-9k! I'd never buy a Tesla just for the quality issues but I doff my cap at their direct-to-consumer model. One reason they’re so profitable surely is that they get all of the profit and not the swine dealers.


That is arguable. One can look at Sandy Munro's teardown, right now of Tesla Plaid. He gives equal praise and criticism as to the build of the cars. And surprisingly, or not Elon does take his suggestions and does improve where he can in the production. For e.g. in the current plaid tear-down, Munro has praised the megacasts that have improved structural integrity while lowering the number of parts. Mr. Munro is a fan of simplification.

But this is not even a quarter of the story. Tesla is able to make money as it has made agreements worldwide for battery supplies. Just 2 weeks back, they entered into agreements for another 200 GWH with a Chinese company that produces LFP batteries. VW has some shares in the unknown company. And this is besides all the other battery agreements that they have shared above. VW is on record saying that Tesla builds a car from scratch in 10 hrs (partly due to gigacastings) while for them it takes 30+ hrs.

And as shared by Tesla yesterday or the day before, they make most of their money on Model 3 and Y. Unlike, other vehicle manufacturers who were waiting for some kind of windfall from the Govt. these guys have plans to launch the Cybertruck and the Semi Truck. They still have backlogs between 6-9 months of all the models that people wanna buy and they have stated that they want to double the manufacturing this year. Panasonic just shared the 4680 cells they are gonna manufacture for Tesla this year. The company seems to be as hungry as ever.

The direct sales model gives a lot more control to Tesla and with the constant data from the cars, they are able to push updates that make the car safer, more self-sufficient, and less amenable to harm. If the 'system' recognizes that the driver is one prone to self-harm or destructive tendencies it may not give as much control to the driver.

I am gonna wait for the battery day to see what they announce this year. Even if they don't do any innovations they still have enough backlog for a year or two. But they will as they know the Chinese are coming.

Reportedly, 8-9 Chinese manufacturers have already ordered gigacastings machines and some have even gone up in the alloys that they will use in the manfacture of their own cars.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:07 am

 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:30 am

MG ZS EV and MG Electric hatchback, while these cars will come and serve in India and probably bought don't think the Canadians will get either.

https://www.autocarindia.com/car-news/n ... how-423232

https://twitter.com/GregKable/status/14 ... 6247467013

And even the MG Marvel-R - all low-cost options -

https://www.autocarindia.com/car-news/m ... and-422287
 
atcdan
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:02 am

After owning a Tesla Model 3 performance for 3 months, I went to go test drive my previous dream car, BMW M3 with a 6 speed.

I know this will sound weird but the car feels sluggish just like every other ICE car does now.

I know EVs aren’t for everyone, and I know not everyone likes them, but I’m driving one of the fastest production cars on the market today for a net cost of lower than my last two cars. I only have a 42 mile round trip commute in mostly nice weather, but we take one of our EVs camping on 500+ mile trips on a monthly basis at least.

If I had a boat or camper I had to tow? Certainly. But every car is a tool for a job, and where Tesla has broken into (or just broken) the market is in the lower to mid end premium sedan and crossover market, as well as performance variants.

Ford is coming out this year with their F150 Lightning and the vehicle promises to fill some of the gaps in current EV capabilities.

FWIW we are an all EV household and are very happy with the decision thus far.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:48 am

And then there is Ora cat from Great Wall Motors (China) as well as Dolphin BYD EA1. Guessing even these two won't be in Canada.

So approximately 2 dozen odd new and old EV vehicles are not in Canada. The reasons best known to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SASEKlZwvo
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:49 am

pune wrote:
The reasons best known to them.

The same reasons why we don't have Skoda, Opel, SEAT, Renault, Peugeot, Tata, MAN, Citroën, Lancia, Daihatsu, Isuzu, Suzuki, and on and on and on and on and on - people don't want them.

Even though we have VW, go take a look at Volkswagen Canada's website, and compare the selection with Volkswagen Germany, or even Mexico for that matter - do the same with Toyota, Honda, Hyundai.

We never got the Polo, we never got the Lupo, we never got the Up, heck, we don't even get the Golf anymore (aside from the GTI and R) - we won't be getting the ID3 - this is how our market works - they only give us what sells - and your cars won't sell.

Manufacturers like Renault, FIAT, Isuzu, Suzuki have tried to sell cars here - we didn't want them. So if you think Canadians (and Americans) are going to be running down the street and line up for some Chinese car, then you clearly have no idea how our market works despite my best efforts to explain it to you numerous times.

As I've told you in other threads, Canadians will not be lining up to buy Chinese cars - accept it and be at peace with it. Your ideological fantasies have nothing to do with the reality outside of your "cleantechnica" blogs.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:53 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
The reasons best known to them.

The same reasons why we don't have Skoda, Opel, SEAT, Renault, Peugeot, Tata, MAN, Citroën, Lancia, Daihatsu, Isuzu, Suzuki, and on and on and on and on and on - people don't want them.

Even though we have VW, go take a look at Volkswagen Canada's website, and compare the selection with Volkswagen Germany, or even Mexico for that matter - do the same with Toyota, Honda, Hyundai.

We never got the Polo, we never got the Lupo, we never got the Up, heck, we don't even get the Golf anymore (aside from the GTI and R) - we won't be getting the ID3 - this is how our market works - they only give us what sells - and your cars won't sell.

Manufacturers like Renault, FIAT, Isuzu, Suzuki have tried to sell cars here - we didn't want them. So if you think Canadians (and Americans) are going to be running down the street and line up for some Chinese car, then you clearly have no idea how our market works despite my best efforts to explain it to you numerous times.

As I've told you in other threads, Canadians will not be lining up to buy Chinese cars - accept it and be at peace with it. Your ideological fantasies have nothing to do with the reality outside of your "cleantechnica" blogs.


Then you can't claim you can't get clean cheap EVs if what you are saying above is true. For e.g. Xpeng just entered Sweden a few days ago. I can very well understand that your Govt. may not be ok with Chinese EV's and that's fine but then how come Europe is embracing them. Or maybe they know something that you don't. And btw this is nothing to do with cleantechnica except they give figures of who sold what. If you feel petrol and diesel polluting cars are best for the planet or for your country, that is your belief, nothing I wanna do about it. You are free to believe that.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:59 am

For those who might be interested seems all Chinese sold a record number of EV's in January 2022 over last year. All are reporting 100%+ growth from last year. And this is apparently when January and February are supposed to be the worst for Chinese auto sales.

source:https://cnevpost.com/
 
airtechy
Posts: 830
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:59 am

Being a engineer and thus a numbers guy, I took a look at some numbers for my ICE car (a 2010 Lexus GS). I get about 400 miles on a tankful of gas which will get me about 10 days or so .. or about 40 miles/day .. so basically any EV would work for range. Gas in Orlando is now 3:45 a gallon, so 17.5 gallon tank full is 58 bucks or 5.80 per my driving day. I highly doubt that it will add 5.80 on my daily home power bill to replace that 40 mile discharge. You have to figure the total cost of ownership before comparing ICE to EV.

Further to the "not enough range" argument, my daily driving limit is about 500 miles under good driving conditions. In my case, that will mean about two food/pee breaks. When the restaurant chains start installing quick chargers that can give a 10-20 percent battery charge boost at interstate exits along with cars that can go about 350-400 miles/charge, that will solve the range problem .. at least for me. The Chick-fi-lay near me has two chargers in the parking lot. In the south at least, Cracker Barrel could easily do this.

I understand that "yesteryear" when England was starting to be electrified, all the castles and their attendant villages built their own power generating stations (which is one reason electrical appliances then came with no power plug .. because there was no standard plug .. you bought your own plug depending on where you lived). Anyway, the Lords of the castles finally reasoned that this was very inefficient and banded together for one plant. It's clear to see that (as an example) one central power plant charging 10,000 cars though home power will be much more efficient than 10,000 cars with independent power plants not even considering the energy efficiency difference between electric motors and ICE engines. And when a distribution system is more efficient the costs come down.

It will be interesting to see how the power companies handle the fact (it would seem) that most home charging will be done overnight. Maybe it will balance out the AC units that draw most power during the daytime. :scratchchin:

I would like to see some numbers/grafts of the KW/mile used on some popular EV cars. Hard to find those numbers.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8494
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:04 am

pune wrote:
I can very well understand that your Govt. may not be ok with Chinese EV's and that's fine but then how come Europe is embracing them. Or maybe they know something that you don't.

Our Government is responsible for ensuring specific emissions standards (for ICE vehicles) and safety standards, if they don't meet the set criteria, they cannot be imported into Canada - all your Chinese examples will have to meet those standards, which are different then the standards in Europe, thus the manufacturers will have to build the car to our specs and to do that for a market that currently doesn't exist, its not financially feasible for them.

The European market and North American market are two very different markets - they want variety, we want SUVs. The Europeans love station wagons, we hate them. It took decades for North American's to warm up to turbo charged 4 cylinders, because we want V6 and V8s.

"Budget" compact EVs don't sell here, because they are too expensive for what you get - if someone can buy a fully loaded fossil fuel powered SUV for the same money as an econobox EV, they'll buy the fully loaded fossil fuel SUV.

Take the Chevy Bolt for example, while I personally love compact cars but I'm in the very small minority, why would I pay $40000 for a subcompact car when I can get a very well appointed Tiguan or Rav4?

There
Is
No
Market
For
Them

Full stop!

For the most part, emissions is not a top priority for us when we buy a car. Fuel economy is sometimes, when the price of fuel is high, but as soon as prices go down, we go back to buying inefficient vehicles again.
 
M564038
Posts: 1087
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:15 am

This is probably the best datasheet you'll get on the subject. These are Bjoern Nyland's own notes. The worlds premier real world EV-tester
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

The easiest tab for real life consumption under normal driving would be the "Geilo"-tab showing consumption driving towards and then back from a mountain(ish) destination.
Consumption is shown in standard Wh/km. Watt hours per kilometer.

airtechy wrote:
Being a engineer and thus a numbers guy, I took a look at some numbers for my ICE car (a 2010 Lexus GS). I get about 400 miles on a tankful of gas which will get me about 10 days or so .. or about 40 miles/day .. so basically any EV would work for range. Gas in Orlando is now 3:45 a gallon, so 17.5 gallon tank full is 58 bucks or 5.80 per my driving day. I highly doubt that it will add 5.80 on my daily home power bill to replace that 40 mile discharge. You have to figure the total cost of ownership before comparing ICE to EV.

Further to the "not enough range" argument, my daily driving limit is about 500 miles under good driving conditions. In my case, that will mean about two food/pee breaks. When the restaurant chains start installing quick chargers that can give a 10-20 percent battery charge boost at interstate exits along with cars that can go about 350-400 miles/charge, that will solve the range problem .. at least for me. The Chick-fi-lay near me has two chargers in the parking lot. In the south at least, Cracker Barrel could easily do this.

I understand that "yesteryear" when England was starting to be electrified, all the castles and their attendant villages built their own power generating stations (which is one reason electrical appliances then came with no power plug .. because there was no standard plug .. you bought your own plug depending on where you lived). Anyway, the Lords of the castles finally reasoned that this was very inefficient and banded together for one plant. It's clear to see that (as an example) one central power plant charging 10,000 cars though home power will be much more efficient than 10,000 cars with independent power plants not even considering the energy efficiency difference between electric motors and ICE engines. And when a distribution system is more efficient the costs come down.

It will be interesting to see how the power companies handle the fact (it would seem) that most home charging will be done overnight. Maybe it will balance out the AC units that draw most power during the daytime. :scratchchin:

I would like to see some numbers/grafts of the KW/mile used on some popular EV cars. Hard to find those numbers.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:01 am

M564038 wrote:
This is probably the best datasheet you'll get on the subject. These are Bjoern Nyland's own notes. The worlds premier real world EV-tester
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

The easiest tab for real life consumption under normal driving would be the "Geilo"-tab showing consumption driving towards and then back from a mountain(ish) destination.
Consumption is shown in standard Wh/km. Watt hours per kilometer.

airtechy wrote:
Being a engineer and thus a numbers guy, I took a look at some numbers for my ICE car (a 2010 Lexus GS). I get about 400 miles on a tankful of gas which will get me about 10 days or so .. or about 40 miles/day .. so basically any EV would work for range. Gas in Orlando is now 3:45 a gallon, so 17.5 gallon tank full is 58 bucks or 5.80 per my driving day. I highly doubt that it will add 5.80 on my daily home power bill to replace that 40 mile discharge. You have to figure the total cost of ownership before comparing ICE to EV.

Further to the "not enough range" argument, my daily driving limit is about 500 miles under good driving conditions. In my case, that will mean about two food/pee breaks. When the restaurant chains start installing quick chargers that can give a 10-20 percent battery charge boost at interstate exits along with cars that can go about 350-400 miles/charge, that will solve the range problem .. at least for me. The Chick-fi-lay near me has two chargers in the parking lot. In the south at least, Cracker Barrel could easily do this.

I understand that "yesteryear" when England was starting to be electrified, all the castles and their attendant villages built their own power generating stations (which is one reason electrical appliances then came with no power plug .. because there was no standard plug .. you bought your own plug depending on where you lived). Anyway, the Lords of the castles finally reasoned that this was very inefficient and banded together for one plant. It's clear to see that (as an example) one central power plant charging 10,000 cars though home power will be much more efficient than 10,000 cars with independent power plants not even considering the energy efficiency difference between electric motors and ICE engines. And when a distribution system is more efficient the costs come down.

It will be interesting to see how the power companies handle the fact (it would seem) that most home charging will be done overnight. Maybe it will balance out the AC units that draw most power during the daytime. :scratchchin:

I would like to see some numbers/grafts of the KW/mile used on some popular EV cars. Hard to find those numbers.


That's a nice datasheet, thank you :)
 
JJJ
Posts: 4244
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Stellantis says politicians NOT people want EVs + more lies

Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:09 pm

pune wrote:
JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:

From what I know, this year they are going to massively reduce the subsidies but as I have shared before,


Mandating 70% of new cars having a plug is the absolute opposite of a massive subsidy reduction.

Without favorable tax policies or massive restrictions, EVs remain a niche application.

It might or might not change, but that's just how it is.


Then one could say that countries should not have signed up on COP26 or even earlier climate change agreements. This is all coming from science. Either say or prove that climate change is a hoax.


Quite the leap there. EVs come with their own sets of environmental problems, but that's not what we're discussing here.

The relative attractiveness and economy of EVs vs ICE just isn't there. No matter how much EVangelists try to push the point.

It takes massive government intervention (which btw is their job) to close the gap.
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BlueberryWheats, Google [Bot], Jalap and 31 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos