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pune
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Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:43 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... rport-kent

There are just too many parallels of the same in India and elsewhere. I could have added it into the Stellantis thread but as it was a longread thought it needed its own corner.

Now that cop26 has come and gone we know that the UK made vague promises. I didn't follow as intensely as I used to do few years ago. I know for a fact that India made promises but has no idea how to decarbonize itself.

https://www.livemint.com/politics/polic ... 91243.html

Think have shared the above in the Stellantis thread but it is also appropriate here.

As far as jealousy and environmental issues are concerned, nothing can be worse than what I have seen both in Dharamshala and Ladakh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRcMHxz0Hfg
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 12:42 am

It is all a waste of time.

As individuals we have never agreed to live net zero lifestyles and imposing net zero on the individual will never be possible in a free democracy.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 9285
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:35 am

And that’s why they don’t want a free democracy! Endangered senators Kelly (D-AZ) and Hassan (D-NH) are pushing for a reduction in the Federal gas tax. If they truly supported action, they’d be raising the tax, but that’s asking their voters to actually put their money where their mouth is.
 
pune
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Posts: 1452
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:45 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
It is all a waste of time.

As individuals we have never agreed to live net zero lifestyles and imposing net zero on the individual will never be possible in a free democracy.


So you are ok with the sea level rise and then eventual fights over living spaces and not having enough food or drink. And this is not something that I'm saying, it's NOAA

https://nca2014.globalchange.gov/report ... level-rise

Small islands will disappear off the map of the earth and you will have climate refugees whether you like it or not and you would have ironical situations of not having enough freshwater to drink while ironically being flooded around the year. This is a reality today on most of India's coasts and I'm guessing elsewhere as well. And the fight for food and having a roof over the head will be more intense. That is the reason that the idea of net-zero came in. Now you may experience it yourself in this lifetime or your children would have to. And the ones who are advocating i.e. fossil fuels, are the ones who are poisoning the well because they have their vested interests. This is from their own scientists.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... -Document3

You need the article, take a stab and see what the shell scientists told the shell company in the 1970s, and yet to the public, they put a counter-narrative/spin to the story. This is how 'companies' work. And it isn't a big report, less than 100 pages, and many have graphs and all, so it shouldn't be hard to you to see the falsehoods that Shell and other oil companies gave over decades.

The UK Govt. itself is responsible for a large amount of climate change from the 14th century onwards but it has never taken any responsibility. It didn't even take it in Cop26 and just pointed fingers at others. Now it is up to you whether you accept that it is anthropogenic climate change and if it is are you ok with the consequences of not taking no action. And the consequences are not just limited to you but to everyone around you. The evidence speaks for itself, The fossil fuel industry wants to delay things as much as possible as they don't care what happens as long as they get rich.
 
pune
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:48 am

And this is again not new, this is how even legacy auto manufacturers thought about car safety -

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/19 ... o-madness/

And as have shared GM held back lithium-ion battery patent for 30+ years. It was only in the 90's that they gave up and the rest is history. Who knows how many such patents they have kept under cover for their selfish profits.
 
pune
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:03 am

I will take my own city example. During monsoons large parts of the city are flooded including low-lying and middle-lying areas, the rest of the year, the whole city looks for water. This was not the case around 30 years back and this is when rains now only come for few hrs or at the maximum 24 hrs while during my grandfather's time, once it started to rain, it would rain for a week. Water was never an issue in their time.

I will also take the example of Chennai/Madras. For the last 30 odd years they had a water shortage, then a strict municipal commissioner came around a decade back and she had the backing of the political party, she asked each new and old housing development to have RWH (Rainwater system) installed, they could write it off against the taxes they over to the state over a year or over a number of years. She also gave a deadline, if they didn't, she would cut the wastewater discharge from houses. The house owners complied. 10 years after, Chennai has no water problems and in fact, they export water to nearby towns and cities which are still grappling with it.

And then there is the whole story of Israel which has to do so much in the area of RWH that they are now secure for water for the next two and a half-century. Even Saudi Arabia has been trying to figure out how they did that as water is a huge issue for them.

Net-zero means we use technologies that don't use much energy but we still get the output. Using more energy for the same thing is inefficient and is actually lowers the amount of cash that the poor will have. And that is what these deniers are against. The message is put in such a way so it would look they are working for the poor, when in fact it is far from it.
 
pune
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:20 am

This is from my own state, you will notice all the experiments and the results from villages but you will notice no towns, the reason being too much politics.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... h7zlr7xhz3

I would encourage you to see some of the videos, while the videos themselves are in mixture of English and Marathi (the regional language) all of them have english subtitles.

And there are many similar things happening all over the world. The idea is that the next generation should face lesser problems, not more, that is the only way we can achieve progress.
 
SEAorPWM
Posts: 266
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:31 am

pune wrote:
This is from my own state, you will notice all the experiments and the results from villages but you will notice no towns, the reason being too much politics.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... h7zlr7xhz3

I would encourage you to see some of the videos, while the videos themselves are in mixture of English and Marathi (the regional language) all of them have english subtitles.

And there are many similar things happening all over the world. The idea is that the next generation should face lesser problems, not more, that is the only way we can achieve progress.


I tried to make a point in the "US Energy Costs" thread about the subject country having a significant amount of daytime solar electrical capacity already in our sunnier states, and the need for an Apollo-esque program to replace as much of our capacity as we can with renewables, while leaving just enough natural gas/nuclear in place for backups.

Yes, there will be CO2 emitted and toxic chemicals used in the manufacturing of all this equipment... not to mention the issues with transmission... but the same could be said when replacing your old less-efficient fridge or Latam dumping perfectly good 8 year old 763's for new 787's.

I can't speak for India, but the US has become purely focused on short-term/up front costs for everything and I don't see any movement on this until it is far too late. Basically, if JFK was 60 years younger and launched the Apollo program in 2021 (assuming the early days of the Space Race were shifted accordingly), he would have been laughed out of Congress. Any president spending that amount of money to significantly reduce our fossil fuel consumption via renewables would be told to take a hike.
 
pune
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:57 am

SEAorPWM wrote:
pune wrote:
This is from my own state, you will notice all the experiments and the results from villages but you will notice no towns, the reason being too much politics.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... h7zlr7xhz3

I would encourage you to see some of the videos, while the videos themselves are in mixture of English and Marathi (the regional language) all of them have english subtitles.

And there are many similar things happening all over the world. The idea is that the next generation should face lesser problems, not more, that is the only way we can achieve progress.


I tried to make a point in the "US Energy Costs" thread about the subject country having a significant amount of daytime solar electrical capacity already in our sunnier states and the need for an Apollo-esque program to replace as much of our capacity as we can with renewables while leaving just enough natural gas/nuclear in place for backups.

Yes, there will be CO2 emitted and toxic chemicals used in the manufacturing of all this equipment... not to mention the issues with transmission... but the same could be said when replacing your old less-efficient fridge or Latam dumping perfectly good 8 years old 763's for new 787's.

I can't speak for India, but the US has become purely focused on short-term/upfront costs for everything and I don't see any movement on this until it is far too late. Basically, if JFK was 60 years younger and launched the Apollo program in 2021 (assuming the early days of the Space Race were shifted accordingly), he would have been laughed out of Congress. Any president spending that amount of money to significantly reduce our fossil fuel consumption via renewables would be told to take a hike.


If you (in this case your Govt.) can't think of anything beyond 4 years then they are doomed. And this also applies to India as well. The joker we have now for a Prime Minister has no idea about trade or anything and that is the reason why even businessmen have been forced to take the extreme step of suicide as the taxes are too high :( Do you think this 'gentleman' would know anything about the environment, He once made an infamous comment that climates are not extreme, our ability to bear weather has become less. He is a climate denier although as policy India continues to be aware of Climate Change. I don't expect any meaningful steps to be taken by the state during his Prime Ministership. He is a status quoist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MW7J8z5jnE
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14894
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:10 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
It is all a waste of time.

As individuals we have never agreed to live net zero lifestyles and imposing net zero on the individual will never be possible in a free democracy.


funny, there are a lot of enviromental rules everyone has to abide to without agreeing to it individually.

best regards
Thomas
 
noviorbis77
Posts: 1198
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:07 am

pune wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
It is all a waste of time.

As individuals we have never agreed to live net zero lifestyles and imposing net zero on the individual will never be possible in a free democracy.


So you are ok with the sea level rise and then eventual fights over living spaces and not having enough food or drink. And this is not something that I'm saying, it's NOAA

https://nca2014.globalchange.gov/report ... level-rise

Small islands will disappear off the map of the earth and you will have climate refugees whether you like it or not and you would have ironical situations of not having enough freshwater to drink while ironically being flooded around the year. This is a reality today on most of India's coasts and I'm guessing elsewhere as well. And the fight for food and having a roof over the head will be more intense. That is the reason that the idea of net-zero came in. Now you may experience it yourself in this lifetime or your children would have to. And the ones who are advocating i.e. fossil fuels, are the ones who are poisoning the well because they have their vested interests. This is from their own scientists.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... -Document3

You need the article, take a stab and see what the shell scientists told the shell company in the 1970s, and yet to the public, they put a counter-narrative/spin to the story. This is how 'companies' work. And it isn't a big report, less than 100 pages, and many have graphs and all, so it shouldn't be hard to you to see the falsehoods that Shell and other oil companies gave over decades.

The UK Govt. itself is responsible for a large amount of climate change from the 14th century onwards but it has never taken any responsibility. It didn't even take it in Cop26 and just pointed fingers at others. Now it is up to you whether you accept that it is anthropogenic climate change and if it is are you ok with the consequences of not taking no action. And the consequences are not just limited to you but to everyone around you. The evidence speaks for itself, The fossil fuel industry wants to delay things as much as possible as they don't care what happens as long as they get rich.


It is not a question of what I want.

It is a question of what people agree to.

But in response to the above, what the UK did historically is not down to me or anyone else alive. We are not responsible for what we’ve done in the past.

Just because the UK took the world into the modern age, it does not mean we are responsible now.
 
pune
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Posts: 1452
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:28 am

noviorbis77 wrote:
pune wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
It is all a waste of time.

As individuals we have never agreed to live net zero lifestyles and imposing net zero on the individual will never be possible in a free democracy.


So you are ok with the sea level rise and then eventual fights over living spaces and not having enough food or drink. And this is not something that I'm saying, it's NOAA

https://nca2014.globalchange.gov/report ... level-rise

Small islands will disappear off the map of the earth and you will have climate refugees whether you like it or not and you would have ironical situations of not having enough freshwater to drink while ironically being flooded around the year. This is a reality today on most of India's coasts and I'm guessing elsewhere as well. And the fight for food and having a roof over the head will be more intense. That is the reason that the idea of net-zero came in. Now you may experience it yourself in this lifetime or your children would have to. And the ones who are advocating i.e. fossil fuels, are the ones who are poisoning the well because they have their vested interests. This is from their own scientists.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... -Document3

You need the article, take a stab and see what the shell scientists told the shell company in the 1970s, and yet to the public, they put a counter-narrative/spin to the story. This is how 'companies' work. And it isn't a big report, less than 100 pages, and many have graphs and all, so it shouldn't be hard to you to see the falsehoods that Shell and other oil companies gave over decades.

The UK Govt. itself is responsible for a large amount of climate change from the 14th century onwards but it has never taken any responsibility. It didn't even take it in Cop26 and just pointed fingers at others. Now it is up to you whether you accept that it is anthropogenic climate change and if it is are you ok with the consequences of not taking no action. And the consequences are not just limited to you but to everyone around you. The evidence speaks for itself, The fossil fuel industry wants to delay things as much as possible as they don't care what happens as long as they get rich.


It is not a question of what I want.

It is a question of what people agree to.

But in response to the above, what the UK did historically is not down to me or anyone else alive. We are not responsible for what we’ve done in the past.

Just because the UK took the world into the modern age, it does not mean we are responsible now.


Pollution doesn't dissipate. otherwise, why do you think a young girl was told this -

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-56801794

If the UK Govt. doesn't want to take any action or take responsibility then that's nothing new. They did the same with India and Africa. They are the original shirkers.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:33 pm

There was a poster here who was quite adamant about climate change and what we need to do about. Then, the poster asked about a lawn mower. I asked if he looked at electric mowers. “Too expensive, by about $200”, IIRC.

Well, that sums it up, won’t spend $200 to replace the worst polluter in everyone’s garage—worse than a Ford F-150. I’m sorry, but collective action depends on individuals.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:39 pm

pune wrote:
So you are ok with the sea level rise and then eventual fights over living spaces and not having enough food or drink. And this is not something that I'm saying, it's NOAA


It is human/political nature that drastic necessary action will not be taken to mitigate sea level rise and large scale migrations until those effects are impacting people on a wide scale. And misanthropes will tell you none of it matters anyway because the worst pain will be toward the end of lifespans of anyone over 30-40 now. They are content to shoulder kids/grandkids with massive future disruptions.
 
pune
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:06 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
pune wrote:
So you are ok with the sea level rise and then eventual fights over living spaces and not having enough food or drink. And this is not something that I'm saying, it's NOAA


It is human/political nature that drastic necessary action will not be taken to mitigate sea-level rise and large-scale migrations until those effects are impacting people on a wide scale. And misanthropes will tell you none of it matters anyway because the worst pain will be toward the end of the lifespans of anyone over 30-40 now. They are content to shoulder kids/grandkids with massive future disruptions.


The above I understand. Just like the gentleman above said, we are not responsible for what our forefathers did. When you can't take responsibility for the past, how would you take responsibility for your children's future? And he is not the only one, there are many otherwise Boris Johnson wouldn't take the position he did. He deliberately kept it vague and he knew that most of the English wouldn't care. Hell, most didn't care when toxic water was being thrown in their own backyards, then thinking about world climate is a tall order :(
 
pune
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There was a poster here who was quite adamant about climate change and what we need to do about. Then, the poster asked about a lawn mower. I asked if he looked at electric mowers. “Too expensive, by about $200”, IIRC.

Well, that sums it up, won’t spend $200 to replace the worst polluter in everyone’s garage—worse than a Ford F-150. I’m sorry, but collective action depends on individuals.


That is again a cop-out made by the same interests. If it is supposed to be everybody for himself then why have a Govt. at all? Why have emissions control and all that? Then you don't need any standards or any controls, you are master of your destiny, you make your own rules, balls to everybody else. If that is the way it is to be, I am ok with that, let's see how many days a society like that works. I know what has happened in the past. But still, I would implore you to try this new 'revolution' and let's see how long it lasts.

You can't say I will follow all rules except one or are you part of the 'exceptional' that rules that apply to everyone don't apply to you ???
 
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Aesma
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:20 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There was a poster here who was quite adamant about climate change and what we need to do about. Then, the poster asked about a lawn mower. I asked if he looked at electric mowers. “Too expensive, by about $200”, IIRC.

Well, that sums it up, won’t spend $200 to replace the worst polluter in everyone’s garage—worse than a Ford F-150. I’m sorry, but collective action depends on individuals.


That's not the same issue, though. It's about air quality. A gas mower burning a few gallons a year, while emitting nasty stuff, is much less impacting on the climate than the F-150 burning hundreds of gallons.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:47 pm

No I agree with GalaxyFlyer - If you can't sacrifice $200, you sure aren't going buy an EV. Or stop taking trips all over the world, having a boat, RV, motor cycle /ATV for fun. Living in a too big a house, driving too big a car for your needs.

Let's see how long California's ban on the sale of new gasoline powered lawn tools lasts. They'll be a booming business in Nevada Home Depot stores.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:03 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
No I agree with GalaxyFlyer - If you can't sacrifice $200, you sure aren't going buy an EV. Or stop taking trips all over the world, having a boat, RV, motor cycle /ATV for fun. Living in a too big a house, driving too big a car for your needs.

Let's see how long California's ban on the sale of new gasoline powered lawn tools lasts. They'll be a booming business in Nevada Home Depot stores.


The reality is asking people to do this is stupid, while Bill Gates lives in Medina sucking down more hydrocarbons and lighting Cohibas with charcoal from old growth forest to the tune of thousands of average Joes.

This "climate crisis" is the standard of too many...we won't impact the elite or they turn off our grant money and stop funding our non-profit. What can stop the poor from doing?

I know! Our target will be the middle class, who lack the political coverage to have anyone lobby for their equities!

We COULD have had grand bargain offered where we look at really green tech like nuclear and offered it as national security boon to the right, while extolling its carbon reductions that everyone both benefits from and contributes to (because everyone plugs their stuff into the wall.)

Instead, we've got Solyndras and NordStreams, and the Greenies wonder why JoeBob Gas Lawn Mower Guy just isn't getting the message on his carbon footprint from the Speaker of House broadcasting from her transcontinental corporate jet ride to California courtesy of a campaign contributor.
 
cpd
Posts: 7244
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Re: Meet the ‘inactivists’, tangling up the climate crisis in culture wars

Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:08 pm

Around here, people have given up caring about what heads of state and politicians are agreeing to do. We are all taking our own steps and moving ahead very fast particularly in solar power.

Walking in my area we can see many houses with huge solar power systems added to their roofs, even quite old places.

When we had the lockdowns because of Covid, the traffic volume was so much less and noise was way reduced and we also didn’t have the smell from traffic.

I haven’t flown anywhere since 2019 and even then it wasn’t many. And majority of the time I used a bicycle to go to and from work that year because it was faster and more enjoyable. Now I only work remotely. I’m doing my bit, even though I don’t have heaps of money.

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