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L410Turbolet
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Re: Russia invasion could begin any day, US warns

Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:21 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
And so the excuses begin. It's in the name - ethnic cleansing.

Telling your guests that the time is up and they better go home, since their further presence might be (ab)used by Putin as an excuse to break into your house, again... is not ethnic cleansing. If things go even more south, Russian tanks will roll into Narva, Estonia using exactly this pretext, "protecting" Russians beyond the borders of Russia proper.
 
THS214
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:41 am

Mortyman wrote:
THS214 wrote:
How stupid can one be? Macron won the prize. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pu ... 022-02-24/



What is stupid about keeping communication lines open trying to find a solution ?


There is nothing to communicate. Putin has made his choice and will continue that path. All the talk goes to Putin. Russians only understand hard against hard and therefore talks are for losers.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:44 am

Apparently the Ukrainians took back Gostomel airport after it was seized by 600 Russian paratroopers which are special forces. Does that mean that all 600 paratroopers have been eliminated in the process?
 
THS214
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:44 am

Mortyman wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
THS214 wrote:
How stupid can one be? Macron won the prize. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pu ... 022-02-24/


It's France...they'll raise a white flag quick the moment this thing turn further south.



Where is the white flag ? Macron just like other European leaders have and are keeping communication lines open. Anything else is stupid.

This was before Russia invaded by the way.


Finnish president Niinistö has clearly said that there is nothing to talk with Putin. Macron had a talk just hours ago with Putin and that was after the full scale attack.
 
THS214
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:46 am

johns624 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
THS214 wrote:
How stupid can one be? Macron won the prize. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pu ... 022-02-24/



What is stupid about keeping communication lines open trying to find a solution ?
Did they have a two way conversation or did Macron sit and listen? That would determine if it was useful or not.


No matter. Putin has made his decision and no-one can change it.
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:55 am

Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Now that Ukraine is done, here are the next big decisions. Sweden and Finland (especially Finland) have to decide if they want to join NATO. If they do, they need to do it while Putin is still preoccupied with Ukraine. The other NATO countries need to immediately accept them. I think the US will agree since we just sold them 64 F35s. Obviously, we think they'd make a good ally. It has to be done quickly so no pressure can be applied by Russia. If they were afraid of Ukraine being in NATO and on their border, they sure won't want Finland to be a member. It's much closer to St Petersburg, Kola Peninsula, etc.


Perhaps they have more incentive to join now that it’s clear Russian forces have already targeted civilians in Ukraine.

Its not about them wanting to join, its about the existing NATO members not doing something that Russia will not like, such as expanding the membership.
After all, that is the Russian line which detractors follow, NATO at their doorstep has Russia in fear, so.....
In my opinion, NATO membership is frozen until the Russian bear has settled down, perhaps France will encourage them to join the EU army.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:08 am

Seems cards are slowly revealing themselves.
https://www.afr.com/world/asia/china-op ... 223-p59yyy
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:10 am

Looks like Russian morale is low. Some soldiers claim they were tricked into the invasion https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... osses.html
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:11 am

And the hacker group Anonymous have declared war on the Russian government and media. rt.com is down
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:14 am

par13del wrote:
In my opinion, NATO membership is frozen until the Russian bear has settled down, perhaps France will encourage them to join the EU army.


Absolutely. The Nordic countries, watching the Normandy Format fiasco and collusion, will be all lining up, begging to join the EU Army, where weak, by default defeatist and above all totally spineless France has the main say.
Wouldn't kicking France out of NATO make things simpler and easier?
Last edited by L410Turbolet on Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
johns624
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:25 am

par13del wrote:
Its not about them wanting to join, its about the existing NATO members not doing something that Russia will not like, such as expanding the membership.
After all, that is the Russian line which detractors follow, NATO at their doorstep has Russia in fear, so.....
In my opinion, NATO membership is frozen until the Russian bear has settled down, perhaps France will encourage them to join the EU army.
If NATO leaders won't do anything because Russia (the reason NATO was formed, yeah, I know it was the USSR back then) doesn't want them to, then NATO is finished. If it is, how many European countries try to sign defense pacts with France/Germany and how many with UK/US and how many roll over and play dead?
 
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william
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:32 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Looks like Russian morale is low. Some soldiers claim they were tricked into the invasion https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... osses.html


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... tions.html

"Troops are already closing in on the seat of Ukrainian power after taking control of the strategic Chernobyl nuclear power plant today, and will seize it within 96 hours, bringing a 'new Iron Curtain' down on Europe, Zelensky warned.

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Vladimir Putin plans to encircle Ukrainian forces in Kyiv and force them to either surrender or be destroyed, and the leadership of Ukraine could then fall in a week.

A former senior US intelligence officer told Newsweek: 'After the air and artillery end and the ground war really starts, I think Kyiv falls in just a few days.

'The military may last slightly longer but this isn't going to last long.' "

So which story is to be believed?
 
Virtual737
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:52 am

william wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Looks like Russian morale is low. Some soldiers claim they were tricked into the invasion https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... osses.html


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... tions.html

"Troops are already closing in on the seat of Ukrainian power after taking control of the strategic Chernobyl nuclear power plant today, and will seize it within 96 hours, bringing a 'new Iron Curtain' down on Europe, Zelensky warned.

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Vladimir Putin plans to encircle Ukrainian forces in Kyiv and force them to either surrender or be destroyed, and the leadership of Ukraine could then fall in a week.

A former senior US intelligence officer told Newsweek: 'After the air and artillery end and the ground war really starts, I think Kyiv falls in just a few days.

'The military may last slightly longer but this isn't going to last long.' "

So which story is to be believed?


96 hours, a few days, in a week. Do you expect them to be able to predict down to the second?

Those 3 timescales aren't too far from each other already.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:55 am

Yeah so the Russians may win a conventional war in a short amount of time but what will they do with Ukraine afterwards? They can’t suppress the will of 44 million people in the long term
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:05 am

johns624 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Its not about them wanting to join, its about the existing NATO members not doing something that Russia will not like, such as expanding the membership.
After all, that is the Russian line which detractors follow, NATO at their doorstep has Russia in fear, so.....
In my opinion, NATO membership is frozen until the Russian bear has settled down, perhaps France will encourage them to join the EU army.
If NATO leaders won't do anything because Russia (the reason NATO was formed, yeah, I know it was the USSR back then) doesn't want them to, then NATO is finished. If it is, how many European countries try to sign defense pacts with France/Germany and how many with UK/US and how many roll over and play dead?

As long as Russia does not attack a NATO member NATO will be a key player in Europe, no different to what is taking place now.
 
LabQuest
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:07 am

All the sanctimonious griping from Europe for years towards the USA and look at where we are now. Actual war in Europe....again.
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:08 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Yeah so the Russians may win a conventional war in a short amount of time but what will they do with Ukraine afterwards? They can’t suppress the will of 44 million people in the long term

How were they suppressed when they made up the USSR?
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:10 am

par13del wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Yeah so the Russians may win a conventional war in a short amount of time but what will they do with Ukraine afterwards? They can’t suppress the will of 44 million people in the long term

How were they suppressed when they made up the USSR?


Much easier back then without easy access to information from the outside world.

Also russias economy will take a big hit. It’ll be very expensive for them to maintain control of Ukraine
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:11 am

The West should call Putins bluff and support Ukraine militarily. As Zelensky said, tomorrow war will be at our doorstep.
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:25 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
The West should call Putins bluff and support Ukraine militarily. As Zelensky said, tomorrow war will be at our doorstep.

Define "The West"
Europeans usually remind the rest of the world that they had their continent devasted during WWII so they are not eager to see another one, that they were instrumental in the two world wars is besides the point.
Once Ukraine is in the fold ample options will be available for "The West" to use their economic might to rebuild Ukraine after Putin promises no more.
 
alfa164
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:29 am

LabQuest wrote:
All the sanctimonious griping from Europe for years towards the USA and look at where we are now. Actual war in Europe....again.


Actually, there has been an actual war in Europe since 2014; the world - and particularly the Europeans - have just chosen to ignore it. Now that war is expanding exponentially, and Europe - and the rest of the world - realize just how serious it was.


AirPacific747 wrote:
The West should call Putins bluff and support Ukraine militarily. As Zelensky said, tomorrow war will be at our doorstep.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: Absolutely! Ukraine's neighbors should realize that, if Ukraine falls, their borders are in real jeopardy. Putin's megalomania knows no boundaries.
 
victrola
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:30 am

par13del wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Yeah so the Russians may win a conventional war in a short amount of time but what will they do with Ukraine afterwards? They can’t suppress the will of 44 million people in the long term

How were they suppressed when they made up the USSR?


That was a different era. The Ukrainians have tasted freedom and democracy. The anger and determination of the Ukranian people has been severely underestimated. All they have to do is to kill as many Russian invaders as they can. Russia can take over the whole country. However, if you have a million or so armed Ukrainians killing just one Russian. Then the body bags going back to Russia will be enormous. I think the Ukranian army is being clever. Don't directly engage the invaders. Hide out and strike like a cat. Then disappear to fight again. You can't control a country without troops on the ground and exposed. Just pick them off one at a time,
 
CRJ200flyer
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:50 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
The West should call Putins bluff and support Ukraine militarily. As Zelensky said, tomorrow war will be at our doorstep.


https://www.romania-insider.com/romania-president-ukraine-russia-war?amp

It seems Romania will only provide humanitarian aid as it feels protected by larger European countries and NATO. I think it’s a sad mentality. Russia may be able to beat Ukraine, but if Romania and Poland stepped in, that would be another 100 fighter jets in the sky defending Ukraine. I would think you’d want to stop your neighbor from being crushed and having Russia on your door step.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:14 am

par13del wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Yeah so the Russians may win a conventional war in a short amount of time but what will they do with Ukraine afterwards? They can’t suppress the will of 44 million people in the long term

How were they suppressed when they made up the USSR?


Judging by the graveyards in Ukraine it took the USSR years to get things back under control after the Nazis had been pushed back.
Remeber, when the Wehrmacht invaded the USSR, they where cheered as liberators in Ukraine. Didn't last long, but they didn't give a damn how many Russians the Germans killed.

Best regards
Thomas
 
victrola
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:21 am

par13del wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
The West should call Putins bluff and support Ukraine militarily. As Zelensky said, tomorrow war will be at our doorstep.

Define "The West"
Europeans usually remind the rest of the world that they had their continent devasted during WWII so they are not eager to see another one, that they were instrumental in the two world wars is besides the point.
Once Ukraine is in the fold ample options will be available for "The West" to use their economic might to rebuild Ukraine after Putin promises no more.


This is precisely the same situation in Europe in 1939, People were so traumatized by World War 1 that they refused to stand up to Germany until it was too late, People think the cost of standing up to Russia is expensive now. However, Russia will become bolder and the cost of standing up to them will become much higher in the future. Years from now, people will ask "why didn't the West stand up to Russia in 2022 when the cost of standing up to them was relatively low.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:31 am

victrola wrote:
par13del wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
The West should call Putins bluff and support Ukraine militarily. As Zelensky said, tomorrow war will be at our doorstep.

Define "The West"
Europeans usually remind the rest of the world that they had their continent devasted during WWII so they are not eager to see another one, that they were instrumental in the two world wars is besides the point.
Once Ukraine is in the fold ample options will be available for "The West" to use their economic might to rebuild Ukraine after Putin promises no more.


This is precisely the same situation in Europe in 1939, People were so traumatized by World War 1 that they refused to stand up to Germany until it was too late, People think the cost of standing up to Russia is expensive now. However, Russia will become bolder and the cost of standing up to them will become much higher in the future. Years from now, people will ask "why didn't the West stand up to Russia in 2022 when the cost of standing up to them was relatively low.


Exactly. I can’t stand this feeling of the West being so impotent when our ideals and credibility are at stake.

Ukrainians are so damn brave. Time we do whatever we can to help
 
ltbewr
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:39 am

The only winners in this perverse war will be the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC) and their rich owners. Everyone else will be losers - dead Ukrainians and Russians, economic disruptions worldwide from war fears, oil prices going up quickly, all at a time when the Covid-19 pandemic is still raging around the world.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:47 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Ukrainians are so damn brave. Time we do whatever we can to help

I would say that the Ukrainian soldier is every bit as tough as any Russian and probably better. They have nothing to lose and will fight to the end. I do think we "other supportive nations" can and should help.

Tugg
 
Virtual737
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:52 am

Tugger wrote:
They have nothing to lose


Unfortunately I believe Putin is either severely mentally ill or terminally ill. Either way, he doesn't give a damn about anything and there is little to stop him going nuclear. Only those around him would be able to do anything about it, if they have the cojones.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:56 am

par13del wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Yeah so the Russians may win a conventional war in a short amount of time but what will they do with Ukraine afterwards? They can’t suppress the will of 44 million people in the long term

How were they suppressed when they made up the USSR?


The events of 1986-91 (Chernobyl and aftermath) are a good example.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:03 am

ltbewr wrote:
The only winners in this perverse war will be the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC) and their rich owners. Everyone else will be losers - dead Ukrainians and Russians, economic disruptions worldwide from war fears, oil prices going up quickly, all at a time when the Covid-19 pandemic is still raging around the world.


...you left out oil producers and speculators.
 
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stasisLAX
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:16 am

“We stand up to bullies," President Biden said Thursday at the White House. "Americans stand up for freedom. This is who we are.” Nice to have a reality based leader in the White House who isn't a puppet of Putin’s...
 
tommy1808
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:29 am

stasisLAX wrote:
“We stand up to bullies," President Biden said Thursday at the White House. "Americans stand up for freedom. This is who we are.” Nice to have a reality based leader in the White House who isn't a puppet of Putin’s...


is buying Oil, that the US doesn´t even need, from Russia banned yet?

best regards
Thomas
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:48 am

JFK said it best sixty years ago:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:45 am

aristoenigma wrote:
JFK said it best sixty years ago:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."


Except in October 1962 he got a rude wake up call about the real consequences of "pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship" if they "opposed any foe". It's OK to boast about using force to stop your enemies, but if your enemies have enough Nuclear weapons to kill every human being on the planet 3 times over that causes you to be a little less bellicose.

Close calls are going to happen if you come in close proximity. In 1962 a US destroyer was depth charging a Russian submarine off Cuba. Two of the three officers on the submarine wanted to use nuclear weapons to defend themselves, which surely would have led to a US retaliatory nuclear strike, and WW3, the end of humanity. Luckily the Soviet officer Arkhipov refused to confirm the order, and probably is the reason why most of us here now in 2022 are able to argue about things over the internet in relative comfort.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:50 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Looks like Russian morale is low. Some soldiers claim they were tricked into the invasion https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... osses.html



Thank you for that article!

This needs to be forced into Russia for all the civilians to see what is happening to their boys and end this war!!!! You know their media is not going to show any of this.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:22 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Looks like Russian morale is low. Some soldiers claim they were tricked into the invasion https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... osses.html


Could be. But POWs usually aren't so bellicose after being captured. I'd say they are trying to appeal for sympathy from their captors, saying they didn't know they were going to war, rather than admitting they were part of a deliberate invasion force. Often combat troops will try to pass themselves off as from a non combat unit, like transport or medical or something so that their captors won't be as harsh to them. Probably won't work.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:27 am

lugie wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It sounds like Germany and a few other EU countries are trying to dilute the banking sanctions. https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/uk ... 9a20526a18
Of course, Gerhard Schroder is agitating for his Russian friends, too.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMYt-xHXsAM ... name=large



As a German, I can only say I'm appalled by the discrepancy between big words in their speeches today and now the lack of willingness to enact crippling sanctions of the highest order on Russia. We're past the point of talking, actions need to follow. Kick them out of SWIFT, block any Russian planes from overflying, expropriate oligarch properties (Munich/Starnberg anyone?), expropriate Gazprom, and stop any payments for gas.

This government needs to take a good introspective look, in particular parts of the SPD and FDP, and purge their ranks of appeasers.

I am also disappointed. What else has to happen before they kick them out of SWIFT?!?!
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:34 am

The Ukrainian defense claims in a post on Facebook that Russian saboteurs have obtained Ukrainian equipment, and uses it to try to get deeper into the country. They further write that it concerns both cars and uniforms.

The defense has issued registration numbers for the cars they claim have been taken.

Deputy Defense Minister Anna Malyar says that Russian soldiers have dressed in Ukrainian uniforms and are on their way to Kyiv, reports the BBC.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:18 am

Ukraine claims the enemy lost 800 fighters.
7 aircraft
6 helicopters
30 tanks
130 other ground machines.

Sorry In Polish, but most up to date info I found.
https://wydarzenia.interia.pl/raporty/r ... Id,5854847
 
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sebolino
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:19 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
par13del wrote:
In my opinion, NATO membership is frozen until the Russian bear has settled down, perhaps France will encourage them to join the EU army.


Absolutely. The Nordic countries, watching the Normandy Format fiasco and collusion, will be all lining up, begging to join the EU Army, where weak, by default defeatist and above all totally spineless France has the main say.
Wouldn't kicking France out of NATO make things simpler and easier?


How in your (strange at best) mind did it slide from Russia declaring war to Ukraine into blaming France ?
 
marcelh
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 am

johns624 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
johns624 wrote:
No, it was today.


Yes but the photo in the article is not.

Again, nothing stupid about what Macron is doing here. Keeping communication lines open is not the same as giving in to Russia or agreeing with russia.
So France is the pointman for the EU? Macron has wanted to be a big man on the world stage for awhile. Let's see what he accomplishes. Everyone digs on the US for leaving A-stan, a country that has successfully fought the US, USSR and British Empire. yet, hardly anything is said about France admitting failure in Mali.

Both France and the USA were kicked out Vietnam,…..
 
tommy1808
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:00 am

marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

Yes but the photo in the article is not.

Again, nothing stupid about what Macron is doing here. Keeping communication lines open is not the same as giving in to Russia or agreeing with russia.
So France is the pointman for the EU? Macron has wanted to be a big man on the world stage for awhile. Let's see what he accomplishes. Everyone digs on the US for leaving A-stan, a country that has successfully fought the US, USSR and British Empire. yet, hardly anything is said about France admitting failure in Mali.

Both France and the USA were kicked out Vietnam,…..


Nope, both packed up and left.

best regards
Thomas
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:01 am

Russian forces attacking Kyiv from Gomel airport in Belarus
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:02 am

tommy1808 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
So France is the pointman for the EU? Macron has wanted to be a big man on the world stage for awhile. Let's see what he accomplishes. Everyone digs on the US for leaving A-stan, a country that has successfully fought the US, USSR and British Empire. yet, hardly anything is said about France admitting failure in Mali.

Both France and the USA were kicked out Vietnam,…..


Nope, both packed up and left.

best regards
Thomas


That is a nice way of re framing history :-)
 
tommy1808
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:13 am

Mortyman wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Both France and the USA were kicked out Vietnam,…..


Nope, both packed up and left.

best regards
Thomas


That is a nice way of re framing history :-)


while the French may have had trouble staying in had they tried, the US would have had no problem whatsoever to roll up North Vietnam had they chosen to do so. The US military was always kept on a very short leash from DC.

best regards
Thomas
 
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Aesma
Posts: 15982
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:22 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
par13del wrote:
In my opinion, NATO membership is frozen until the Russian bear has settled down, perhaps France will encourage them to join the EU army.


Absolutely. The Nordic countries, watching the Normandy Format fiasco and collusion, will be all lining up, begging to join the EU Army, where weak, by default defeatist and above all totally spineless France has the main say.
Wouldn't kicking France out of NATO make things simpler and easier?


France has led military operations in dozens of countries all around Africa, was in Afghanistan of course, has bases, submarines, ships in plenty of places around the world.

What about your country ?
 
marcelh
Posts: 2177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:24 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Nope, both packed up and left.

best regards
Thomas


That is a nice way of re framing history :-)


while the French may have had trouble staying in had they tried, the US would have had no problem whatsoever to roll up North Vietnam had they chosen to do so. The US military was always kept on a very short leash from DC.

best regards
Thomas


So? Politicians decide, not the military. In the end, both were actually kicked out.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:31 am

Looks like Zelensky is losing faith in NATO providing actual assistance. Moderated language, saying ready to discuss "neutrality" with Moscow. Maybe trying to salvage something to ensure the nation remains intact at the end of this, rather than sacrifice Ukrainians in bloody battles?:

https://www.firstpost.com/world/ukraine ... 07741.html

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia ... MsI6A2uzcb
 
anstar
Posts: 3492
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:43 am

victrola wrote:

This is precisely the same situation in Europe in 1939, People were so traumatized by World War 1 that they refused to stand up to Germany until it was too late, People think the cost of standing up to Russia is expensive now. However, Russia will become bolder and the cost of standing up to them will become much higher in the future. Years from now, people will ask "why didn't the West stand up to Russia in 2022 when the cost of standing up to them was relatively low.


Such a shame we make the same mistakes time and time again.

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