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c933103
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:06 pm

https://www.msn.com/ja-jp/news/world/%E ... 2q?ocid=st
Chinese ambassador in Japan say Ukraine invasion is a lesson for those who are weak, that they should never pick a quarrel with those who are strong, even if there are other strong people promised backing such silly act.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:07 pm

Chinese State Banks Restrict Financing for Russian Commodities

At least two of China’s largest state-owned banks are restricting financing for purchases of Russian commodities, underscoring the limits of Beijing’s pledge to maintain economic ties with one of its most important strategic partners in the face of sanctions by the U.S. and its allies.

Industrial & Commercial Bank of China Ltd.’s offshore units stopped issuing U.S. dollar-denominated letters of credit for purchases of physical Russian commodities ready for export, two people familiar with the matter said. Yuan-denominated letters of credit are still available for some clients, subject to approvals from senior executives ....



https://news.bloomberglaw.com/banking-l ... ommodities
 
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Tugger
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm

c933103 wrote:
Chinese ambassador in Japan say Ukraine invasion is a lesson for those who are weak, that they should never pick a quarrel with those who are strong, even if there are other strong people promised backing such silly act.

China is actually more OK with the full invasion than they are/were with the carving off of the "independent states" from Ukraine. So they will hope Putin's folly will come off successfully. There is just no way for them to support anything less.

Tugg
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:15 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Monday morning quarterbacking is a dime a dozen spectator sport.

...as is the Ostrich mentality, but as stated, those ships have long since sailed. Now we have to look forward.


Nobody said geopolitics isn't complex - or that realpolitik doesn't sometimes barf unintended vomit back into one's own country. Germany found that out shutting down nuclear power, didn't they?

As long as they own it and move forward they will be fine, it's when they deflect by saying someone else caused the problem that the dominoes have to fall.
I always recall that old statement..."Oh what a tangle web we weave....."
 
Virtual737
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:20 pm

extender wrote:
To answer your questions, no, we should not send troops to Ukraine. That ship has long since sailed. I don't pretend to be a biomedical expert, nor a foreign policy expert, but I know baloney when I see it.


So what is this weakness and baloney that you're talking about?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:23 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
william wrote:
victrola wrote:
It looks like the Ukranian armed forces are putting up a vigorous fight. I think Russia is encountering more than they counted on. They may be able to occupy the country. But will they ever be able to pacify it?


Per France24 and Skynews on Youtube, Kiev is surrounded and its been less than 48 hours since invasion. That is Desert Storm speed.



Yes because Kiev is so close to traitor Belarus!!!

But huge respect to the Ukrainian military on putting some heavy losses on the Russians!!!! We know Ukraine will suffer very heavy losses, but that is given when your enemy spends 10x more on their military.

Russian losses as claimed by Ukraine, in 48 hours since the war started.

Tanks -80
Military vehicles-516
Aircraft -10
Helicopters-7
Personnel- 2800


In polish. Scroll down to time 15:15
https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/wojna- ... wo/ztv0qk4


of course these losses are unconfirmed by the other side and it's not unlikely they are overestimated, but several sources are reporting quite heavy fighting has been going on with several positions initially being taken by Russian troops being recaptured (at least temporarily) again by Ukrainian troops. Such brutal fighting must have costed a masive amount of lives to both sides!

One exemple of this is the airport of Antonov, which was briefly taken by a few hundred Russian paratroopers which got dropped their by helicopters in the early stages of this invasion: that mission clearly failed as the airport was retaken by Ukrainian forces and all 200 of them were 'destroyed' according to the Ukrainian ministery of Defence in their statement on re recapture of the airport, only to see it being lost again this morning, allegedly at the cost of again 600 soldiers, this time Ukainian, this time as per Russian statement.

At this pace, the desire to continu fighting for every streetblock, every house every floor in Kyiv is quickly going to cool down in Moscow, as the appetite to turn Kyiv into a second Stalingrad is just not there amongst the Russian population... Remember that in a couple of days, the news of body bag delivered throughout Russia will start to tickle in and the propaganda of a targeted, limited military operation to take out certain criminal individuals (the official version of Russia as of now) wont be holding up any longer.

Is it a surprise the Russians are looking at direct talks with Kyiv, and have asked Minsk to prepare for a safe environment for this?
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:25 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Is it a surprise the Russians are looking at direct talks with Kyiv, and have asked Minsk to prepare for a safe environment for this?


Got to love Minsk being the proposed location. Hardly neutral is it?
 
stratable
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:27 pm

johns624 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
stratable wrote:

Do you want to start a nuclear war with Russia?

The only one "starting" anything is Russia/Putin.

If the nations that are friendly (supposedly) to Ukraine were to send in support for their fight, that would NOT be an escalation nor "starting a nuclear war". The question is would Russia/Putin escalate? He probably would conventionally but I doubt he would do so with nukes, that would end all chance of his political survival as even China would have to abandon him and such actions publicly.

And honestly I think Putin is praying/expecting the nations west of Ukraine do nothing because if they do he will have a real problem on his hands and will likely lose in the short term (he'll keep up and create as many new "insurgencies" as he can but the active war and the expense involved in both men and treasure will become too much).

Tugg
I think Putin "knew" that the rest of Europe wouldn't do anything. They can't even agree on enacting the really hard economic sanctions.


With my limited understanding of the situation:
War in Ukraine was inevitable. Putin would have attacked either way. Question was for NATO, do you want to get dragged into it or no.
Putin cannot tolerate an independent democratic Ukraine. Merkel knew this in 2008.
 
marcelh
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:27 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
marcelh wrote:

NATO/EU boots in Ukraine won’t help and just escalate it more.


:white: :white: :white: That's all you know.

Enlighten me, because you know it all..
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:33 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Is it a surprise the Russians are looking at direct talks with Kyiv, and have asked Minsk to prepare for a safe environment for this?


Got to love Minsk being the proposed location. Hardly neutral is it?


Why should it be neutral?

Besides, the Ukrainian government isn't exacltly in a position to send negotiators out to places far afield, are they?

Nor are they in a particularly strong negotiating position: the only thing they clearly have up their sleeves is that it seems to be getting costly for Russia to capture Ukraine and Putin might start feering that he's indeed going to be confronted with massive loss of lives for a protracted period of time (say weeks), something which isn't matching his narrative that this is just a small operation to liberate Ukraine, nor will it go down well in Russia itself, especially combined with all the sanctions that will start to bite the population soon.

If indeed Ukrainians don't surrender quickly, the Russians will have to go in and go for street fights like the Germans had to do in Stalingrad, taking out fighters street per streer, house per house, floor per floor, room per room even. How does that look as a prospect to a man who insanely said he's going to liberate the Ukrainians of neonazi's? He's increasingly starting to look like the nazi himself, and at a huge cost of Russian lives and wealth too, that is!
 
Virtual737
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:37 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Why should it be neutral?


Because Putin cannot be trusted. He's offering an "olive branch" while at the same time asking Ukrainian troops to turn on their own government.

He is a snake in snakes clothing with the biggest short man syndrome ever known to man.
 
johns624
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:40 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Is it a surprise the Russians are looking at direct talks with Kyiv, and have asked Minsk to prepare for a safe environment for this?


Got to love Minsk being the proposed location. Hardly neutral is it?
That's almost as ironic as the "security conference" being in Munich.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:41 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Why should it be neutral?


Because Putin cannot be trusted. He's offering an "olive branch" while at the same time asking Ukrainian troops to turn on their own government.

He is a snake in snakes clothing with the biggest short man syndrome ever known to man.



By the comments he made today it doesn’t really seem he wants to negotiate anyways. He is in it till the end otherwise he will be seen as capitulating and he will get his head cut off.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:42 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Why should it be neutral?


Because Putin cannot be trusted. He's offering an "olive branch" while at the same time asking Ukrainian troops to turn on their own government.

He is a snake in snakes clothing with the biggest short man syndrome ever known to man.



By the comments he made today it doesn’t really seem he wants to negotiate anyways. He is in it till the end otherwise he will be seen as capitulating and he will get his head cut off.


Indeed. He's accusing a Jewish man of being a Nazi, and now also a druggie. Totally tonto I would say.
 
johns624
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:44 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Is it a surprise the Russians are looking at direct talks with Kyiv, and have asked Minsk to prepare for a safe environment for this?


Got to love Minsk being the proposed location. Hardly neutral is it?


Why should it be neutral?

Because that's the proper way to do it. You're talking not about a country that's "friendly" with Russia but one that let its territory be used for the invasion. If the Ukrainians show up, what's to say that the Russians and Belarusians say they can't leave and hold them hostage until they surrender everything?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:47 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Why should it be neutral?


Because Putin cannot be trusted. He's offering an "olive branch" while at the same time asking Ukrainian troops to turn on their own government.

He is a snake in snakes clothing with the biggest short man syndrome ever known to man.


I agree on all that, but still it is a remarkable turn of events after just 2 days, IMHO.

You'd think that when you decide to invade a sovereign country like Putin just did, you're not going to consider negotiations with it just 2 days later.

Either you try negotiations beforehand, or you finish the job military: but this is weird to say the least.

Remember Putin has always refused direct talks between Russia and Ukraine, so what would make him change mind right in the middle then?

He doesn't have to pretend any longer like he did with Macron and the previous Minsk agreements, does he, so what's the reason to not just ignore such an offer from President Zelensky, sent out in a video message?

I think it's maybe the realisation that indeed the next phase of this conflict might drag Russian troops in Kyiv and other cities into Stalingrad scenes as the Ukrainians are clearly not just running and or surrendering as soon as Russian troops show up, but rather determined to fight on till dead.
 
johns624
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:49 pm

I guess some militaries will have to reassess their compositions. The days of equipping for insurgency and stabilization missions is at an end. The day of the MRAP and Stryker is over and the MBT and attack helicopter back.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:49 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Why should it be neutral?


Because Putin cannot be trusted. He's offering an "olive branch" while at the same time asking Ukrainian troops to turn on their own government.

He is a snake in snakes clothing with the biggest short man syndrome ever known to man.


I agree on all that, but still it is a remarkable turn of events after just 2 days, IMHO.

You'd think that when you decide to invade a sovereign country like Putin just did, you're not going to consider negotiations with it just 2 days later.

Either you try negotiations beforehand, or you finish the job military: but this is weird to say the least.

Remember Putin has always refused direct talks between Russia and Ukraine, so what would make him change mind right in the middle then?

He doesn't have to pretend any longer like he did with Macron and the previous Minsk agreements, does he, so what's the reason to not just ignore such an offer from President Zelensky, sent out in a video message?

I think it's maybe the realisation that indeed the next phase of this conflict might drag Russian troops in Kyiv and other cities into Stalingrad scenes as the Ukrainians are clearly not just running and or surrendering as soon as Russian troops show up, but rather determined to fight on till dead.



Putin miscalculated his misinformation campaign, and is now in deep trouble as local Russians are suddenly asking why the Ruble is plummeting, and the rest of the world is pissed off.


Putin is now going to try to save face. and still get what he wants. I still think he his a madman, but he is very worried about his legacy now.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:52 pm

https://www.flightradar24.com/AFR112/2aef7b9c
https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM824/2aef2258

Also nice to see the French and the Dutch, among others, still enjoying Russian overflight rights. Europe can't even show a united front on sanctions. Germany, Italy & Hungary (possibly others) dragging their feet on barring Russia from SWIFT.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:54 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
[...]
One exemple of this is the airport of Antonov, which was briefly taken by a few hundred Russian paratroopers which got dropped their by helicopters in the early stages of this invasion: that mission clearly failed as the airport was retaken by Ukrainian forces and all 200 of them were 'destroyed' according to the Ukrainian ministery of Defence in their statement on re recapture of the airport, only to see it being lost again this morning, allegedly at the cost of again 600 soldiers, this time Ukainian, this time as per Russian statement.
[...]

My only comment on the airport taking and loss is that I am surprised the Ukrainian's would stay to try and hold it. It would be smarter to re-take it then disperse into the surrounding area, armed and ready to take out any opposing aircraft that may try to land while not giving the Russian's a target to concentrate on and kill your forces. Just make the airport into a honey-pot to keep taking out opposing forces. The local forces have the upper hand in that they can be part of the scenery and engage where they wish. (This is what happened a lot in Vietnam with the VC and how they approached working to neutralize a superior force. Strike then disperse, rinse and repeat.)

Tugg
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:00 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

Because Putin cannot be trusted. He's offering an "olive branch" while at the same time asking Ukrainian troops to turn on their own government.

He is a snake in snakes clothing with the biggest short man syndrome ever known to man.



By the comments he made today it doesn’t really seem he wants to negotiate anyways. He is in it till the end otherwise he will be seen as capitulating and he will get his head cut off.


Indeed. He's accusing a Jewish man of being a Nazi, and now also a druggie. Totally tonto I would say.


Yes, Putin is getting completely entangled in his own accusations and lies, mainly because over the past weeks the west has successfully thrown his narraitve off script by constanlty devulging the plans and the pretects sought for an invation and occupation of Ukraine.

first it was all about Ukraine wanting to become a NATO memberstate and thus a platform to launch a strike on Russia
then it was all about stopping a non-existing genocide on Russian speeking minorities in Donbass, an area already under Russian control for 8 years
then it was about simply defending 2 Russia friendly republics which got formally recognized just 6 hours before (!)
then it was about denazification of Ukraine in order to liberate the Ukrainian bloodbrothers like real comrades (the exact word Putin used in his speech btw)

Can Putn still explain to himself why he's currently at war even?
Because I think even ordinary Russians constantly fed this nonsense aren't getting it any longer.

Denazification?
Ending Russofobia in Ukraine?
President Zelensky is of Jewish ancestry and ironically his mother tongue is Russian, not Ukrainian.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:04 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:


By the comments he made today it doesn’t really seem he wants to negotiate anyways. He is in it till the end otherwise he will be seen as capitulating and he will get his head cut off.


Indeed. He's accusing a Jewish man of being a Nazi, and now also a druggie. Totally tonto I would say.


Yes, Putin is getting completely entangled in his own accusations and lies, mainly because over the past weeks the west has successfully thrown his narraitve off script by constanlty devulging the plans and the pretects sought for an invation and occupation of Ukraine.

first it was all about Ukraine wanting to become a NATO memberstate and thus a platform to launch a strike on Russia
then it was all about stopping a non-existing genocide on Russian speeking minorities in Donbass, an area already under Russian control for 8 years
then it was about simply defending 2 Russia friendly republics which got formally recognized just 6 hours before (!)
then it was about denazification of Ukraine in order to liberate the Ukrainian bloodbrothers like real comrades (the exact word Putin used in his speech btw)

Can Putn still explain to himself why he's currently at war even?
Because I think even ordinary Russians constantly fed this nonsense aren't getting it any longer.

Denazification?
Ending Russofobia in Ukraine?
President Zelensky is of Jewish ancestry and ironically his mother tongue is Russian, not Ukrainian.


One would hope the majority of the Russian people will see through his BS. He doesn't give a rats ass what anyone else thinks of him. His legacy is only about how those from the motherland will remember him.

Has there ever been a political leader that has retained power for a decade or more (and potentially brought in legislation to enable them to retain power for longer than was previously allowed) that hasn't effectively become a dictator?
 
marcelh
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:05 pm

johns624 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Is it a surprise the Russians are looking at direct talks with Kyiv, and have asked Minsk to prepare for a safe environment for this?


Got to love Minsk being the proposed location. Hardly neutral is it?
That's almost as ironic as the "security conference" being in Munich.


Don’t forget the “open door” for Ukraine offered by the US just a month ago…..
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/26/ukraine-and-russia-to-hold-paris-talks-in-latest-effort-to-ease-tensions
Blinken repeated the US and Nato position that they would not recognise any limitation on the right of Ukraine to pursue membership of the alliance.
“These are decisions for Nato nations as an alliance, not the United States unilaterally, but from our perspective, I can’t be more clear: Nato’s door is open, and remains open,” he said.
 
johns624
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:08 pm

casinterest wrote:

I still think he his a madman, but he is very worried about his legacy now.
The only "legacy" he's worried about is dying peacefully in his own bed.
 
johns624
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:10 pm

marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

Got to love Minsk being the proposed location. Hardly neutral is it?
That's almost as ironic as the "security conference" being in Munich.


Don’t forget the “open door” for Ukraine offered by the US just a month ago…..
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/26/ukraine-and-russia-to-hold-paris-talks-in-latest-effort-to-ease-tensions
Blinken repeated the US and Nato position that they would not recognise any limitation on the right of Ukraine to pursue membership of the alliance.
“These are decisions for Nato nations as an alliance, not the United States unilaterally, but from our perspective, I can’t be more clear: Nato’s door is open, and remains open,” he said.
Would France and Germany have okayed the membership?
PS Your reply has nothing do with with Virtual737 and my comments.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:14 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

Indeed. He's accusing a Jewish man of being a Nazi, and now also a druggie. Totally tonto I would say.


Yes, Putin is getting completely entangled in his own accusations and lies, mainly because over the past weeks the west has successfully thrown his narraitve off script by constanlty devulging the plans and the pretects sought for an invation and occupation of Ukraine.

first it was all about Ukraine wanting to become a NATO memberstate and thus a platform to launch a strike on Russia
then it was all about stopping a non-existing genocide on Russian speeking minorities in Donbass, an area already under Russian control for 8 years
then it was about simply defending 2 Russia friendly republics which got formally recognized just 6 hours before (!)
then it was about denazification of Ukraine in order to liberate the Ukrainian bloodbrothers like real comrades (the exact word Putin used in his speech btw)

Can Putn still explain to himself why he's currently at war even?
Because I think even ordinary Russians constantly fed this nonsense aren't getting it any longer.

Denazification?
Ending Russofobia in Ukraine?
President Zelensky is of Jewish ancestry and ironically his mother tongue is Russian, not Ukrainian.


One would hope the majority of the Russian people will see through his BS. He doesn't give a rats ass what anyone else thinks of him. His legacy is only about how those from the motherland will remember him.

Has there ever been a political leader that has retained power for a decade or more (and potentially brought in legislation to enable them to retain power for longer than was previously allowed) that hasn't effectively become a dictator?


He's still dangerously misguided and megalomaniacal either way. He gave an interview several years back where he claimed the USSR fell because Gorbachev was too 'weak'. He is constantly referencing Peter the Great. Classic Napoleon syndrome.
 
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SumChristianus
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:15 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:


By the comments he made today it doesn’t really seem he wants to negotiate anyways. He is in it till the end otherwise he will be seen as capitulating and he will get his head cut off.


Indeed. He's accusing a Jewish man of being a Nazi, and now also a druggie. Totally tonto I would say.


Yes, Putin is getting completely entangled in his own accusations and lies, mainly because over the past weeks the west has successfully thrown his narraitve off script by constanlty devulging the plans and the pretects sought for an invation and occupation of Ukraine.

first it was all about Ukraine wanting to become a NATO memberstate and thus a platform to launch a strike on Russia
then it was all about stopping a non-existing genocide on Russian speeking minorities in Donbass, an area already under Russian control for 8 years
then it was about simply defending 2 Russia friendly republics which got formally recognized just 6 hours before (!)
then it was about denazification of Ukraine in order to liberate the Ukrainian bloodbrothers like real comrades (the exact word Putin used in his speech btw)

Can Putn still explain to himself why he's currently at war even?
Because I think even ordinary Russians constantly fed this nonsense aren't getting it any longer.

Denazification?
Ending Russofobia in Ukraine?
President Zelensky is of Jewish ancestry and ironically his mother tongue is Russian, not Ukrainian.


Peter Zeihan's book The Absent Superpower predicted all this back in 2016 from the perspective of geography, economics, demographics and geopolitics:
In short, Russia wants Ukraine for its geography ... and had to "find" a "justification"
From Zeihan's site/books
Image
https://zeihan.com/purchase-the-absent-superpower/
Image
Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania are, unfortunately, probably next. Poland?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:18 pm

A vey angry looking Vladimir Putin now calls upon Ukrainian soldiers to stop resisting and overthrow their own government!

https://twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/status ... vades-kyiv

As Andrew Roth posts: Putin clearly has lost the plot!

I think that despite the military advances on the terrain, the huge amount of casualties Russia has suffered so far were not calculated and are making Putin very worried about where all this goes next if this kind of heavy combat fighting drags on for much longer...

Stalingrad is looming for the Kremlin now, and its completely destroying the entire Russian narative on the 'operation' so far!
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:20 pm

marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

Got to love Minsk being the proposed location. Hardly neutral is it?
That's almost as ironic as the "security conference" being in Munich.


Don’t forget the “open door” for Ukraine offered by the US just a month ago…..
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/26/ukraine-and-russia-to-hold-paris-talks-in-latest-effort-to-ease-tensions
Blinken repeated the US and Nato position that they would not recognise any limitation on the right of Ukraine to pursue membership of the alliance.
“These are decisions for Nato nations as an alliance, not the United States unilaterally, but from our perspective, I can’t be more clear: Nato’s door is open, and remains open,” he said.

So what's off with that statement, it is still up to the NATO members to admit new members, it is not up to the USA, POTUS actually states that in the quote.
Do you really believe that the Europen members would vote to admit Ukraine, or that Putin believes that if admitted NATO would launch an all out assault on Russia within days?
We really trying to rationalize and or justify the mindset of Putin launching an invasion of Ukraine?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:22 pm

johns624 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

I still think he his a madman, but he is very worried about his legacy now.
The only "legacy" he's worried about is dying peacefully in his own bed.


No, He is a politician, so he has a legacy in mind. One that is looking far more complex than he imagined.
 
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par13del
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:26 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
A vey angry looking Vladimir Putin now calls upon Ukrainian soldiers to stop resisting and overthrow their own government!

https://twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/status ... vades-kyiv

As Andrew Roth posts: Putin clearly has lost the plot!

I think that despite the military advances on the terrain, the huge amount of casualties Russia has suffered so far were not calculated and are making Putin very worried about where all this goes next if this kind of heavy combat fighting drags on for much longer...

Stalingrad is looming for the Kremlin now, and its completely destroying the entire Russian narative on the 'operation' so far!

Russian troops have been in Ukraine for a couple years, fighting as well as instigating, they know of the actual civil war that was going on between the Pro and Non-Pro-Russian sides, can his military leaders really say they are surprised at the resistance, or were they simply saying what the politicians wanted to hear?
 
PhilBy
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:44 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:31 pm

Tugger wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Chinese ambassador in Japan say Ukraine invasion is a lesson for those who are weak, that they should never pick a quarrel with those who are strong, even if there are other strong people promised backing such silly act.

China is actually more OK with the full invasion than they are/were with the carving off of the "independent states" from Ukraine. So they will hope Putin's folly will come off successfully. There is just no way for them to support anything less.

Tugg


China are probably watching this and gauging the likely level of interference (i.e. somewhere between not a lot and none) when they 'demilitarise' their own 'breakaway republic'

They can then use the excuse well you let Russia reclaim it's escaped territories so why can't we!
Last edited by PhilBy on Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 12231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:32 pm

Reading an article in Foreign Affairs (from another thread), I found this to be the most relevant element as regards the situation and the EU going forward and something the EU will absolutely have to confront (even if they don't address it):
, order in Europe will have to be conceived of in primarily military terms—which, since Russia has a stronger hand in the military than in the economic realm, will be in the Kremlin’s interest—sidelining nonmilitary institutions such as the European Union.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... ussia-wins

And that is the crux of the problem with how the US and the EU are approaching Russia. Russia... Putin knows he has lost the economic war and cannot win that as a "direct conflict". Russia simply does not have the economic capacity of the west. So Pukin has chosen to approach this using his strength against the weakness of "the west". He is willing to use military force and the west is not.

The needs to be willing to use military force (again). Yes there is risk, and it is a risk that Europe and the world have not lived under for many decades now so it seems terrifying. But we all lived under the threat of nuclear war for decades and we survived. And Russia is unlikely to use nukes outside of a direct assault on Russia itself (and yes I am willing to take risk. Any free nation MUST be willing to take that risk or else just give up and live under the control of someone else).

Putin's options truly are limited if one confronts him on his terms. It is not easy nor for the faint of heart. And a divided Europe is definitely a weakness he is counting on. But it is wrong to allow these actions to go on unopposed and sanctions are not opposition to Putin.

This stuff is real and very dangerous but allowing continued military success to rogue/despotic nations cannot be acceptable. Or at least is shouldn't be.

Tugg
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:46 pm

Russia has just been kicked out of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm expecting a full Putin u-turn and a withdrawal of troops from Ukraine within the hour.

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-kicked-out-of-eurovision-after-ukraine-invasion-12551440

EDIT: Source provided.
Last edited by Virtual737 on Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 12231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:49 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Russia has just been kicked out of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm expecting a full Putin u-turn and a withdrawal of troops from Ukraine within the hour.

OMG! :crazy: Such resolve and definitive action!

Yeah, this is the kind of crap that is useless (and should have been done by all parties on day one).

Tugg
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 16089
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:20 pm

Looks like Russia is clamping down on media , and social networks. What part of their story are they not liking out there?

https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/25/2295 ... censorship

Waiting till Feb 24,2022 for issues in October 2020?

The Russian government has partially blocked access to Facebook in the country after it claims the social network “restricted” the accounts of four Russian media outlets.

In a statement on Friday, Russia’s tech and communications regulator, Roskomnadzor, said Facebook was violating “the rights and freedoms of Russian citizens,” and that it had recorded 23 cases of “censorship” by the social network since October 2020.

“On February 24, Roskomnadzor sent requests to the administration of Meta Platforms, Inc. [to] remove the restrictions imposed by the social network Facebook on Russian media and explain the rea
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 4110
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:22 pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... g-him.html

"Ukraine's president has admitted he is 'target number one' for Russian assassins in Kyiv - and his wife and children are 'number two' - but insists he remains in the capital despite being at the top of Putin's kill list with the city under siege, declaring: 'I'm staying with my people'.

Volodymyr Zelensky, 44, is being hunted by Putin's attack dog army of special forces with a list of Ukrainian officials to capture or kill having been given the same task in Crimea, Syria and Chechnya in recent years.
His wife Olena, 44, and two children, aged 17 and nine, are also in hiding - but remain in the country - amid fears the Kremlin wants to wipe out or imprison Ukraine's entire political class, with Mr Zelensky warning: 'My family is the number two goal'. They were last seen together on Valentine's Day. "

This isn't a Halo video game, this is real war, no doubt these teams are have been in Kiev for days. With Russia's intel and satellites, sadly I am sure Russia has a good idea where he and his family is.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 15982
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:44 pm

Time to train some ukrainians (already speaking and looking russian) to do the same back to Putin...
 
marcelh
Posts: 2182
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:02 pm

Tugger wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
Russia has just been kicked out of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm expecting a full Putin u-turn and a withdrawal of troops from Ukraine within the hour.

OMG! :crazy: Such resolve and definitive action!

Yeah, this is the kind of crap that is useless (and should have been done by all parties on day one).

Tugg

Yeah, starting WW3 in Europe is much better….
 
johns624
Posts: 5941
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:04 pm

par13del wrote:
marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That's almost as ironic as the "security conference" being in Munich.


Don’t forget the “open door” for Ukraine offered by the US just a month ago…..
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/26/ukraine-and-russia-to-hold-paris-talks-in-latest-effort-to-ease-tensions
Blinken repeated the US and Nato position that they would not recognise any limitation on the right of Ukraine to pursue membership of the alliance.
“These are decisions for Nato nations as an alliance, not the United States unilaterally, but from our perspective, I can’t be more clear: Nato’s door is open, and remains open,” he said.

So what's off with that statement, it is still up to the NATO members to admit new members, it is not up to the USA, POTUS actually states that in the quote.
Do you really believe that the Europen members would vote to admit Ukraine, or that Putin believes that if admitted NATO would launch an all out assault on Russia within days?
We really trying to rationalize and or justify the mindset of Putin launching an invasion of Ukraine?
Give the man a break; he's just following French history. Anything good that happens is because of French "gloire" and anything bad is because of US/UK perfidy. Just going back to World War Two...fall of France-Britain's fault for not sending enough troops and planes, even though French forces already outnumbered the Germans. The whole "Vichy thing" they sorta ignore. Fighting against the Allies in North Africa is also forgotten. Paris was liberated single handedly by the Free French-Gloire. Macron wanted an EU army--but nobody else wanted to join--US fault. Ukraine isn't in NATO-US fault.
 
AirbusCheerlead
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:20 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:19 pm

johns624 wrote:
par13del wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Don’t forget the “open door” for Ukraine offered by the US just a month ago…..
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/26/ukraine-and-russia-to-hold-paris-talks-in-latest-effort-to-ease-tensions
Blinken repeated the US and Nato position that they would not recognise any limitation on the right of Ukraine to pursue membership of the alliance.
“These are decisions for Nato nations as an alliance, not the United States unilaterally, but from our perspective, I can’t be more clear: Nato’s door is open, and remains open,” he said.

So what's off with that statement, it is still up to the NATO members to admit new members, it is not up to the USA, POTUS actually states that in the quote.
Do you really believe that the Europen members would vote to admit Ukraine, or that Putin believes that if admitted NATO would launch an all out assault on Russia within days?
We really trying to rationalize and or justify the mindset of Putin launching an invasion of Ukraine?
Give the man a break; he's just following French history. Anything good that happens is because of French "gloire" and anything bad is because of US/UK perfidy. Just going back to World War Two...fall of France-Britain's fault for not sending enough troops and planes, even though French forces already outnumbered the Germans. The whole "Vichy thing" they sorta ignore. Fighting against the Allies in North Africa is also forgotten. Paris was liberated single handedly by the Free French-Gloire. Macron wanted an EU army--but nobody else wanted to join--US fault. Ukraine isn't in NATO-US fault.


Did you actually bother to read Macron's interview with the Economist?

Best regards and strength to the Ukrainian people,
Jonas
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 12231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:21 pm

marcelh wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
Russia has just been kicked out of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm expecting a full Putin u-turn and a withdrawal of troops from Ukraine within the hour.

OMG! :crazy: Such resolve and definitive action!

Yeah, this is the kind of crap that is useless (and should have been done by all parties on day one).

Tugg

Yeah, starting WW3 in Europe is much better….

You think expelling Russia fro things like this will lead to WWIII? Then all is already lost.

Tugg
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 12231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:26 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
Did you actually bother to read Macron's interview with the Economist?

Best regards and strength to the Ukrainian people,
Jonas

Do you have a link?

Also interestingly, Macron did state in November
In a telephone conversation lasting for one hour and 45 minutes Macron expressed "our deep concern and our willingness to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine", the French president's office said.

https://www.barrons.com/news/macron-tel ... 1637000407
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/internat ... -integrity

Tugg
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:28 pm

marcelh wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
Russia has just been kicked out of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm expecting a full Putin u-turn and a withdrawal of troops from Ukraine within the hour.

OMG! :crazy: Such resolve and definitive action!

Yeah, this is the kind of crap that is useless (and should have been done by all parties on day one).

Tugg

Yeah, starting WW3 in Europe is much better….

It is when the alternative is to let authoritarians steamroll free countries and commit whatever atrocities they choose. How far back are you willing to fall before you draw a line? Because likely by then it’ll be too late.
 
GDB
Posts: 16204
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:32 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Russia has just been kicked out of the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm expecting a full Putin u-turn and a withdrawal of troops from Ukraine within the hour.

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-kicked-out-of-eurovision-after-ukraine-invasion-12551440

EDIT: Source provided.


Younger Russians tend to ignore Putin's state media, generally get news from outside sources, the very people Russia conscripts from.
 
SRQLOT
Posts: 884
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:34 pm

Dozens of polish military trucks with ammo and MANPADs(Piorun) arrived in Ukraine.
Does anyone know how many of those ware going to be sent?

in polish,
https://businessinsider.com.pl/wiadomos ... ie/18xfjsk
 
AirbusCheerlead
Posts: 197
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:20 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:35 pm

Tugger wrote:
Do you have a link?
Tugg


Sorry I think you need a subscription...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... ds-english

But I made a copy and send you a pm...
 
SEAorPWM
Posts: 486
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:41 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:38 pm

Here comes the counter-sanctions, as expected:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kr ... 022-02-25/

Aside from cutting off oil/gas exports, what else from the west can be sanctioned that isn't already covered by the existing EU/US/UK ones? Aren't western investments and business transactions in Russia already prohibited by these? And vice-versa?
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3646
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:47 pm

johns624 wrote:
par13del wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Don’t forget the “open door” for Ukraine offered by the US just a month ago…..
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/26/ukraine-and-russia-to-hold-paris-talks-in-latest-effort-to-ease-tensions
Blinken repeated the US and Nato position that they would not recognise any limitation on the right of Ukraine to pursue membership of the alliance.
“These are decisions for Nato nations as an alliance, not the United States unilaterally, but from our perspective, I can’t be more clear: Nato’s door is open, and remains open,” he said.

So what's off with that statement, it is still up to the NATO members to admit new members, it is not up to the USA, POTUS actually states that in the quote.
Do you really believe that the Europen members would vote to admit Ukraine, or that Putin believes that if admitted NATO would launch an all out assault on Russia within days?
We really trying to rationalize and or justify the mindset of Putin launching an invasion of Ukraine?
Give the man a break; he's just following French history. Anything good that happens is because of French "gloire" and anything bad is because of US/UK perfidy. Just going back to World War Two...fall of France-Britain's fault for not sending enough troops and planes, even though French forces already outnumbered the Germans. The whole "Vichy thing" they sorta ignore. Fighting against the Allies in North Africa is also forgotten. Paris was liberated single handedly by the Free French-Gloire. Macron wanted an EU army--but nobody else wanted to join--US fault. Ukraine isn't in NATO-US fault.

Seriously. And then he’s going to post some opinion articles about how it’s the US’s fault for Europe’s apparent inability to defend even its own territorial integrity. There may be an element of truth to the US preferring to maintain its clout…but (and I say this as an American with deep respect and love for France) it’s a bit rich to suddenly infantalize yourself when we know the French and Germans regularly get their jollies doing the opposite of what Washington wants. As if they never had a choice to better themselves militarily. I just hope this will all be a wake up call in all the European capitals…Germany in particular as France actually does have a decently capable military.
 
User avatar
alberchico
Topic Author
Posts: 3710
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:49 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/PaulSonne/st ... 8917067776

If Russian troops are unable to enter Kiev due to heavy resistance, does anyone fear this will turn into a modern version of Grozny where the city gets pummeled by air until the population surrenders ?

I also feel that Ukraine committed a massive blunder announcing that they are are going to be distributing arms to its citizens for self defense. Doing that now makes the civilian population a legitimate target in the eyes of Russia.
Last edited by alberchico on Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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