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sierrakilo44
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:15 am

There seems to have been a large escalation in attacks by Russian forces tonight, currently local time is 2am.

For the last 3-4 hours this Twitter account has posted short videos from Ukrainians, showing massive air and artillery attacks in many places, around Kyiv, Kharvov and Dnipro in the middle of the country. Oil storage depots are being targeted. The bombardment of Kharkov looks especially fierce:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Militarylandnet

It also looks as if Russian forces and using “sabotage units”, Special Forces dressed in civilian clothing and using civilian vehicles to infiltrate right into the centre of cities and attack vital targets. That Twitter account posted a video showing Ukrainian forces capturing a convoy of 5 civilian vehicles in the middle of Kiev tonight being used in such an operation.

I still think Putin’s tactic is to try and seize Kiev ASAP, and do as much damage to the rest of the Ukraine in the next few days, then call a ceasefire and negotiate with some bargaining chips. He’ll want to do this before the SWIFT ban takes effect, and before those supplies of weapons arrive in the Ukraine.
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:16 am

johns624 wrote:
Some posters upthread are also blaming their unpreparedness on Brexit and Trump, even though the first Russian invasion was in 2014 and Trump and Brexit didn't happen until 2016.


I am. And I’ll reiterate it. Not just unpreparedness (and let’s not pretend that it didn’t suck up political and economic bandwidth), but also a breakdown of trust.

Let’s go back to 2014, when France cancelled its multi billion dollar ship sale to Russia. That’s what Allies do.

Two years later, they got Brexit and Trump - with their myopic “my country first” mindset (or “sovereignty” in the Brexit context). No more being nice to European Allies (“Nazis” “vassal states”, outright insulting Merkel). And then AUKUS - however sound in principle - was handled incredibly badly, especially by the Brexit crowd. Gloating at the expense of France / sticking it to the EU etc. What could possibly go wrong.

And that’s without even considering the political and economic disruption of Brexit and the Trump era.

Which begs the question: is it really any surprise that some of these EU countries are thinking twice before adopting the company line?

So yes, I think it’s absurd to critique some EU responses without acknowledging the context - the Brexit and Trump challenges that immediately preceded it.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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c933103
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:20 am

TheSonntag wrote:
As a German, I fully agree that even Trump was right in one point: We must spend more on our own defense. Nevertheless, sometimes the view seems to be too narrowly focused on military actions especially from people from the UK and the US.

The current crisis clearly makes it visible they have a point, but in the long run, the west can only remain powerful if it remains an attractive package also with regards to economy, technology, safety, peace and military power, with the intention not having to use it. I believe that developments like Brexit, AUKUS, UK submarine deal and German "trade with everyone" attitude are not really helping here. And Trump really did a lot of damage, and the US obviously still haven't fully recovered from that.

I also believe that the Europeans must be able to support in Asia when needed - although especially the german priority needs to be(come again) land combat.

Generally, a complex situation, but I really believe that we from the west need to focus more on what unites us instead of what divides us:

1. Believe in the Rule of Law
2. Freedom of Speech, and Freedom to live how to live
3. Believe in a world with rules (and yes, our behaviour for example in Kosovo 1999, while necessary IMHO, set a dangerous pretext - not about talking Iraq war at all).
4. A model promoting free trade.

I do not want to sound naive, but Brexit was a real disaster, and we need to overcome the damage done by that.

US and Europe are now at a low point. But this low point is still very, very attractive to people outside. That's why you see rebellion in Kazakhstan and Belarus, and a while earlier the colour revolution in Middle East. And such attractiveness is also the ultimate cause behind anxiety of dictators like Putin, which have to use military measures to suppress desire of people.
 
M564038
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:23 am

You also make a mistake;-)
EU is not Europe. Europe is a whole lot more countries than what makes up the EU.

Highest spending per capita in Europe is Norway, btw. according to the usual web sources.

I am surprised France and Sweden are so far down the list, but I suspect keeping their own home grown fighters and defense systems aren’t included in those numbers.

THS214 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Russians have been pushing boundaries/borders for over seven years and Europeans are just now talking about getting their military in order?

A little late to procure missiles, fighters, tanks and train a few hundred thousand people. Not to mention the thousands of military trucks and such for logistics.

Since rich Europe won't defend itself, I honestly believe Americans are questioning why we are defending them Afghanistan really changed the discussion in my opinion.

I don't believe Europe could deploy the equivalent of even one Marine expidiriary force. (The USA has 3, but one would need six months to train prior to deployment, in my opinion.) Then our main land force is the Army, the Navy is 2nd to none, as is true of our Air Force.

How many fighters has the EU deployed to Romania, Poland, and the Baltic? In all seriousness, only the UK and Poland has a ready (ish) military. Europe only half what they should on defense; sucks to not have it when needed.

"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." If you want peace, prepare for war
https://www.thoughtco.com/if-you-want-p ... war-121446

Advice from 384 AD, European history...

Lightsaber


You make a common US mistake. EU is not a country but several different countries. For example Finland has the same military spending as USA (GPD). That is because our conscription and school system. Even though the service is 6-12 months it means 1-2 years delay of starting for school. Count that with an average US military salary for all the conscripts (they get peanuts) and it is an enormous amount of money.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:31 am

Member of the Russian Parliament (Duma) speaks it against the war (albeit a Communist do not much political power):

https://mobile.twitter.com/Telegraph/st ... 2017081348

If the opposition is speaking openly against the war you can only imagine what those in the ruling party are saying privately, and it can’t be good.

Putin basically has no Allies on this, people he might have thought would have backed him up like Modi, Xi, Orban, Bolsonaro, Bennett are all remaining quiet or positioning themselves in the middle calling for peace.

The only ones supporting Putin are his puppet in Minsk, Bashar Assad in Syria and his assets in the US like Trump, Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:34 am

No mistake. I'm not seeing the quantity of troops needed to make a difference. I do not care where Europe gets its troops from.
What I care is as a whole, even with Norway, Poland and the UK, there are not enough Euros being spent to make a difference.

So while it might not be worth invading Norway, I see a vulnerable continent.

The numbers should include home grown. e.g., the Swedish Air Force only has 207 aircraft per Wikipedia, only 71 are Grepin fighters that, when I look at the list, the only combat aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force


So when I see hundreds of fighters moved forward and so many troops it would be insane to invade, I'll agree with you. I do not see it now.

That said, I had a "beer bet" that the Ukraine wouldn't last this long. I'm very very happy to be wrong and will pay out that bet happily. (Who really loses when the wager is a pitcher of beer?)

Lightsaber

M564038 wrote:
You also make a mistake;-)
EU is not Europe. Europe is a whole lot more countries than what makes up the EU.

Highest spending per capita in Europe is Norway, btw. according to the usual web sources.

I am surprised France and Sweden are so far down the list, but I suspect keeping their own home grown fighters and defense systems aren’t included in those numbers.

THS214 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
A little late to procure missiles, fighters, tanks and train a few hundred thousand people. Not to mention the thousands of military trucks and such for logistics.

Since rich Europe won't defend itself, I honestly believe Americans are questioning why we are defending them Afghanistan really changed the discussion in my opinion.

I don't believe Europe could deploy the equivalent of even one Marine expidiriary force. (The USA has 3, but one would need six months to train prior to deployment, in my opinion.) Then our main land force is the Army, the Navy is 2nd to none, as is true of our Air Force.

How many fighters has the EU deployed to Romania, Poland, and the Baltic? In all seriousness, only the UK and Poland has a ready (ish) military. Europe only half what they should on defense; sucks to not have it when needed.

"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." If you want peace, prepare for war
https://www.thoughtco.com/if-you-want-p ... war-121446

Advice from 384 AD, European history...

Lightsaber


You make a common US mistake. EU is not a country but several different countries. For example Finland has the same military spending as USA (GPD). That is because our conscription and school system. Even though the service is 6-12 months it means 1-2 years delay of starting for school. Count that with an average US military salary for all the conscripts (they get peanuts) and it is an enormous amount of money.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:42 am

Insightful extended news segment, with contributions from those on the ground and experts;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQeJHL6dXu4
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:47 am

johns624 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
A little late to procure missiles, fighters, tanks and train a few hundred thousand people. Not to mention the thousands of military trucks and such for logistics.

Since rich Europe won't defend itself, I honestly believe Americans are questioning why we are defending them Afghanistan really changed the discussion in my opinion.

I don't believe Europe could deploy the equivalent of even one Marine expidiriary force. (The USA has 3, but one would need six months to train prior to deployment, in my opinion.) Then our main land force is the Army, the Navy is 2nd to none, as is true of our Air Force.

How many fighters has the EU deployed to Romania, Poland, and the Baltic? In all seriousness, only the UK and Poland has a ready (ish) military. Europe only half what they should on defense; sucks to not have it when needed.

"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum." If you want peace, prepare for war
https://www.thoughtco.com/if-you-want-p ... war-121446

Advice from 384 AD, European history...

Lightsaber


You make a common US mistake. EU is not a country but several different countries. For example Finland has the same military spending as USA (GPD). That is because our conscription and school system. Even though the service is 6-12 months it means 1-2 years delay of starting for school. Count that with an average US military salary for all the conscripts (they get peanuts) and it is an enormous amount of money.
Not really. Many Europeans talk about an Eu military, including the poster directly above you. If some European countries don't like NATO because the US, due to strength and size, is the defacto leader, what will an Eu military look and act like? How much central control would there be. As a Finn, would you rather join NATO or an EU military?


Answer to your question is NATO. EU is military joke but not all the EU members. EU military would take months to deploy. After all the politic fights it would be deployed but would not have authority to fight. It won't happen. Just a task force.

As Finnish president is against NATO I don't hold my breath, not that I know if the door is open for us. A lot of Finns are now opening their eyes as many did before and maybe that also put pressure to the president and other politicians. Our former president Halonen has said that her biggest achievement as a president was that Finland didn't join NATO. Well she is and was a Putins lapdog. So are many of our older politicians and former prime minister Aho is a board member of a Russian bank. At least after this war he will not get elected as the next president.

I don't recall of any real talk about EU military. A small task force yes but not a military. Imagine an EU military. It would be a mess that wouldn't do anything as there will be a long lasting fight where will the generals come. EU will never be a new USA as there are so huge differences between countries.
 
alfa164
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:56 am

OA260 wrote:
Poland to refuse to play Russia in World Cup qualifier after Ukraine invasion
https://theathletic.com/news/poland-to- ... PbxeortO5/
Will be interesting to see how this goes down and who else will act.


One of Russia's wealthiest oligarchs, Roman Abramovich, has handed over control of the Chelsea football team, to the Chelsea Foundation. It is worth noting that today:

"Across the Premier League on Saturday, players and fans at matches showed solidarity toward those in — and from — Ukraine following Russia’s invasion with flags and messages calling for peace."

Abramovich has been extremely close to Putin; however, his daughter earlier shared a post insisting that Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not supported by the majority of Russians. She wrote in her Instagram account (with 41,000 followers):

"The biggest and most successful lie of the Kremlin's propaganda is that most Russians stand with Putin".


https://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/C ... 949698.php
https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer/fut ... putin-post
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:02 am

It is very difficult to have any discussion about even the short term future of NATO when there is still the obvious elephant in the room - Trump.

While he remains a potential future POTUS (and how in the world is that still possible?), any responsible NATO member must remain doubtful that the organisation will still exist in just a few years time. How that man can have any followers left in the US after his recent comments about Putin is totally beyond me. We talk about Putin being deranged. He's not the only one.
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:08 am

lightsaber wrote:
No mistake. I'm not seeing the quantity of troops needed to make a difference. I do not care where Europe gets its troops from.
What I care is as a whole, even with Norway, Poland and the UK, there are not enough Euros being spent to make a difference.

So while it might not be worth invading Norway, I see a vulnerable continent.

The numbers should include home grown. e.g., the Swedish Air Force only has 207 aircraft per Wikipedia, only 71 are Grepin fighters that, when I look at the list, the only combat aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force


So when I see hundreds of fighters moved forward and so many troops it would be insane to invade, I'll agree with you. I do not see it now.

That said, I had a "beer bet" that the Ukraine wouldn't last this long. I'm very very happy to be wrong and will pay out that bet happily. (Who really loses when the wager is a pitcher of beer?)

Lightsaber

M564038 wrote:
You also make a mistake;-)
EU is not Europe. Europe is a whole lot more countries than what makes up the EU.

Highest spending per capita in Europe is Norway, btw. according to the usual web sources.

I am surprised France and Sweden are so far down the list, but I suspect keeping their own home grown fighters and defense systems aren’t included in those numbers.

THS214 wrote:

You make a common US mistake. EU is not a country but several different countries. For example Finland has the same military spending as USA (GPD). That is because our conscription and school system. Even though the service is 6-12 months it means 1-2 years delay of starting for school. Count that with an average US military salary for all the conscripts (they get peanuts) and it is an enormous amount of money.


I still see it as a mistake as you still write about Europe and there is not one but several different countries and many don't have anything common except many are members of EU.. You also think that Russian army is a lot better than it is. It is better than 20 years ago but it is not a mighty army, not even close. A lot talk but not new great weapons. Look at Armata tanks, SU-57 fighters...

I'm not surprised that after the start it has slowed a lot. First of all most Russians are not behind this war. Same with soldiers (and especially conscripts). What is the reason to die for in Ukraine?

Russian supplies are heavily relaying on railroads. When the distance between the front and supplies become long it is clear that there are not enough road capacity for supplies. Might want to read this. https://warontherocks.com/2021/11/feedi ... logistics/

A war is a lot more that just fights and many forget that.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:11 am

Virtual737 wrote:
It is very difficult to have any discussion about even the short term future of NATO when there is still the obvious elephant in the room - Trump.

While he remains a potential future POTUS (and how in the world is that still possible?), any responsible NATO member must remain doubtful that the organisation will still exist in just a few years time. How that man can have any followers left in the US after his recent comments about Putin is totally beyond me. We talk about Putin being deranged. He's not the only one.
I agree with your Trump comments but if that's the case (I hope not) then as the US starts taking a lesser role in the day-to-day activities of NATO, there's nothing to prevent other countries from stepping up and taking the lead. However, the lead can't just be the country that pushes for it. It has to be one that can lead by example and from the front. One of the current US political problems (on both sides) is that there are too many leaders who are 75+ and no reasonable younger people to take charge. Being one of the most powerful people in the world takes a younger person. It has too much stress.
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:11 am

johns624 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
No mistake. I'm not seeing the quantity of troops needed to make a difference. I do not care where Europe gets its troops from.
What I care is as a whole, even with Norway, Poland and the UK, there are not enough Euros being spent to make a difference.

So while it might not be worth invading Norway, I see a vulnerable continent.

The numbers should include home grown. e.g., the Swedish Air Force only has 207 aircraft per Wikipedia, only 71 are Grepin fighters that, when I look at the list, the only combat aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force


So when I see hundreds of fighters moved forward and so many troops it would be insane to invade, I'll agree with you. I do not see it now.



Lightsaber

Sweden is actually doing pretty good. Norway, Belgium, Denmark and Netherlands each have 40+ F16s to be replaced by 25-40 F35s.


Finland just bought 64 F-35s. Considering the size of Finland and USA it means the same as USA would have bought 4 000 fighter planes. Yes, size does matter. ;)
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:14 am

THS214 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
No mistake. I'm not seeing the quantity of troops needed to make a difference. I do not care where Europe gets its troops from.
What I care is as a whole, even with Norway, Poland and the UK, there are not enough Euros being spent to make a difference.

So while it might not be worth invading Norway, I see a vulnerable continent.

The numbers should include home grown. e.g., the Swedish Air Force only has 207 aircraft per Wikipedia, only 71 are Grepin fighters that, when I look at the list, the only combat aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force


So when I see hundreds of fighters moved forward and so many troops it would be insane to invade, I'll agree with you. I do not see it now.



Lightsaber

Sweden is actually doing pretty good. Norway, Belgium, Denmark and Netherlands each have 40+ F16s to be replaced by 25-40 F35s.


Finland just bought 64 F-35s. Considering the size of Finland and USA it means the same as USA would have bought 4 000 fighter planes. Yes, size does matter. ;)
I saw that and was quite happy and surprised. It shows that you take your defense seriously. Too many other countries think that all they have to do is "chip in" a token amount of troops and the big countries will do most of the work. I'd welcome you in NATO.
 
THS214
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Re: Updated: Russia invasion Ukraine begun

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:16 am

alfa164 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Poland to refuse to play Russia in World Cup qualifier after Ukraine invasion
https://theathletic.com/news/poland-to- ... PbxeortO5/
Will be interesting to see how this goes down and who else will act.


One of Russia's wealthiest oligarchs, Roman Abramovich, has handed over control of the Chelsea football team, to the Chelsea Foundation. It is worth noting that today:

"Across the Premier League on Saturday, players and fans at matches showed solidarity toward those in — and from — Ukraine following Russia’s invasion with flags and messages calling for peace."

Abramovich has been extremely close to Putin; however, his daughter earlier shared a post insisting that Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not supported by the majority of Russians. She wrote in her Instagram account (with 41,000 followers):

"The biggest and most successful lie of the Kremlin's propaganda is that most Russians stand with Putin".


https://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/C ... 949698.php
https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer/fut ... putin-post


Also the daughter of Putins spokespersons opposed the war. https://www.businessinsider.com/daughte ... ?r=US&IR=T
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:18 am

johns624 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
No mistake. I'm not seeing the quantity of troops needed to make a difference. I do not care where Europe gets its troops from.
What I care is as a whole, even with Norway, Poland and the UK, there are not enough Euros being spent to make a difference.

So while it might not be worth invading Norway, I see a vulnerable continent.

The numbers should include home grown. e.g., the Swedish Air Force only has 207 aircraft per Wikipedia, only 71 are Grepin fighters that, when I look at the list, the only combat aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force


So when I see hundreds of fighters moved forward and so many troops it would be insane to invade, I'll agree with you. I do not see it now.



Lightsaber

Sweden is actually doing pretty good. Norway, Belgium, Denmark and Netherlands each have 40+ F16s to be replaced by 25-40 F35s.
Belgium and Netherlands also sold all their Leopard 2 MBTs. They said they "weren't needed anymore".
 
M564038
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:20 am

Those numbers are pretty good!
Together with Sweden, they are a group of tiny countries you usually don’t count at all, but think of as a millitary rounding error. Yet, those tiny countrie’s combined fighter capability is probably more than half that of Russia. And they have the latest and greatest, and Russia has very little of that.


johns624 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
No mistake. I'm not seeing the quantity of troops needed to make a difference. I do not care where Europe gets its troops from.
What I care is as a whole, even with Norway, Poland and the UK, there are not enough Euros being spent to make a difference.

So while it might not be worth invading Norway, I see a vulnerable continent.

The numbers should include home grown. e.g., the Swedish Air Force only has 207 aircraft per Wikipedia, only 71 are Grepin fighters that, when I look at the list, the only combat aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force


So when I see hundreds of fighters moved forward and so many troops it would be insane to invade, I'll agree with you. I do not see it now.



Lightsaber

Sweden is actually doing pretty good. Norway, Belgium, Denmark and Netherlands each have 40+ F16s to be replaced by 25-40 F35s.
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:22 am

johns624 wrote:
THS214 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Sweden is actually doing pretty good. Norway, Belgium, Denmark and Netherlands each have 40+ F16s to be replaced by 25-40 F35s.


Finland just bought 64 F-35s. Considering the size of Finland and USA it means the same as USA would have bought 4 000 fighter planes. Yes, size does matter. ;)
I saw that and was quite happy and surprised. It shows that you take your defense seriously. Too many other countries think that all they have to do is "chip in" a token amount of troops and the big countries will do most of the work. I'd welcome you in NATO.


Thanks, your support means a lot! Who knows, if this madness is not stopped at Ukraine, Finland is the last on Putins list that is not a member of NATO. Of course Finlands situation is different and we all shoud have our thoughts in Ukraine right now.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:53 am

Serious question: Why isn't Russia being cutoff from the internet? That seems like an effective sanction. It would disrupt business enough to matter.

Lightsaber
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:04 am

johns624 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
No mistake. I'm not seeing the quantity of troops needed to make a difference. I do not care where Europe gets its troops from.
What I care is as a whole, even with Norway, Poland and the UK, there are not enough Euros being spent to make a difference.

So while it might not be worth invading Norway, I see a vulnerable continent.

The numbers should include home grown. e.g., the Swedish Air Force only has 207 aircraft per Wikipedia, only 71 are Grepin fighters that, when I look at the list, the only combat aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force


So when I see hundreds of fighters moved forward and so many troops it would be insane to invade, I'll agree with you. I do not see it now.



Lightsaber

Sweden is actually doing pretty good. Norway, Belgium, Denmark and Netherlands each have 40+ F16s to be replaced by 25-40 F35s.
Belgium and Netherlands also sold all their Leopard 2 MBTs. They said they "weren't needed anymore".


And Finland bought 100 of those from the Netherlands for 200m euros.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:11 am

johns624 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
No mistake. I'm not seeing the quantity of troops needed to make a difference. I do not care where Europe gets its troops from.
What I care is as a whole, even with Norway, Poland and the UK, there are not enough Euros being spent to make a difference.

So while it might not be worth invading Norway, I see a vulnerable continent.

The numbers should include home grown. e.g., the Swedish Air Force only has 207 aircraft per Wikipedia, only 71 are Grepin fighters that, when I look at the list, the only combat aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Air_Force


So when I see hundreds of fighters moved forward and so many troops it would be insane to invade, I'll agree with you. I do not see it now.



Lightsaber

Sweden is actually doing pretty good. Norway, Belgium, Denmark and Netherlands each have 40+ F16s to be replaced by 25-40 F35s.

Do they have everything to actually support combat logistics? e.g., one tanker per dozen aircraft. Spare parts for combat damage? 40 F-16s, going from memory is 27 operational (the rest in maintenance). That is only two squadrons plus a few spares How many thousands of flight hours in type do pilots have?

I'm still not seeing enough to dissuade anyone. My opinion, after Afghanistan, is it is past time for Europe to stand on its on. e.g., be able to build temporary airfields as the front advances/retreats

A military is a combined force. That is why I use a Marine Expediciary Force (MEF) as an example. I has infantry, artillery, tanks, troop transports, trucks, anti-aircraft, anti-tank, hospitals, mobile warehouses, kitchens, mobile administration, helicopters (attack, transport, and ambulances), and an incredible communication support including integrated recon.

It takes spending about 3.5% of GDP to make a strong enough defense, in my opinion, to not take those resources. For example, Norway hasn't met that threshold since 1969. The current levels only work because the terrain make attacking Norway costly. It is a defensive force, not an expediciary force.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS ... cations=NO

So my opinion remains, Europe isn't prepared. The US needs to focus on Asia. So the rest of Europe has to step up, in my opinion.

This is why Russia was emboldened. I do not believe Europe combined can field an expediciary force at all. After Afghanistan, I do not see the political will for the USA to take responsibility for what rich countries should be doing.

Lightsaber
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:12 am

M564038 wrote:
Those numbers are pretty good!
Together with Sweden, they are a group of tiny countries you usually don’t count at all, but think of as a millitary rounding error. Yet, those tiny countrie’s combined fighter capability is probably more than half that of Russia. And they have the latest and greatest, and Russia has very little of that.
You forgot your "sarcasm" emoticon. First of all, they aren't all small countries. Netherlands has 17M people, Belgium has 11.5M. Between the two of them, they have ZERO MBTs and 70 F35s, once they are all delivered. They have a combined GNP of $1428B. Finland, with a total of 5.5M people, has 200 Leopard 2 MBTs and will have 64 F35s and a GNP of only $269B. See anything wrong with this picture. You're right about one thing--some countries aren't "counted on", so they make it so they can't be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_ ... #Operators
https://statisticstimes.com/economy/pro ... leth%20Map
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E ... %20rows%20
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:15 am

THS214 wrote:
And Finland bought 100 of those from the Netherlands for 200m euros.
I am well aware of that. What is frustrating, is that as an American, I know more about EU militaries than most of the Europeans here who think everything is just swell (not you).
Last edited by johns624 on Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:17 am

lightsaber wrote:
Serious question: Why isn't Russia being cutoff from the internet? That seems like an effective sanction. It would disrupt business enough to matter.

Lightsaber


That would be stupid. After all the Internet is one of the ways to spread news on the war in russia around the kremlin Propaganda.

However, what I can tell you from my experimente in Germany is that apparently we are more resilient against russian Desinformation campaigns. In 2014 german Websites were flooded with bots claiming russian Propaganda. This has become much less recently.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:21 am

TheSonntag wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Serious question: Why isn't Russia being cutoff from the internet? That seems like an effective sanction. It would disrupt business enough to matter.

Lightsaber


That would be stupid. After all the Internet is one of the ways to spread news on the war in russia around the kremlin Propaganda.

However, what I can tell you from my experimente in Germany is that apparently we are more resilient against russian Desinformation campaigns. In 2014 german Websites were flooded with bots claiming russian Propaganda. This has become much less recently.

Why stupid? Russia cuts access to information they do not approve. It is trivial to keyword reject e-mail/links. So do economic damage. I'm wargaming scenario here. I cannot find a downside greater than the upside.

Lightsaber
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:25 am

lightsaber wrote:
Do they have everything to actually support combat logistics? e.g., one tanker per dozen aircraft. Spare parts for combat damage? 40 F-16s, going from memory is 27 operational (the rest in maintenance). That is only two squadrons plus a few spares How many thousands of flight hours in type do pilots have?

I'm still not seeing enough to dissuade anyone. My opinion, after Afghanistan, is it is past time for Europe to stand on its on. e.g., be able to build temporary airfields as the front advances/retreats

A military is a combined force. That is why I use a Marine Expediciary Force (MEF) as an example. I has infantry, artillery, tanks, troop transports, trucks, anti-aircraft, anti-tank, hospitals, mobile warehouses, kitchens, mobile administration, helicopters (attack, transport, and ambulances), and an incredible communication support including integrated recon.

Lightsaber
No, most can't. I read a book, I believe it was Soldier, by General Sir Michael Jackson (I think, but I buy, read, and donate so many books) where he said that so many countries did minimal participation in the Balkans and Afghanistan. He called it "me too" participation. They would each send an understrength infantry battalion with little or no logistical support. They had to be supplied by the "big boys" and didn't have enough strength to do anything but patrol right outside their bases. They couldn't expand their footprint but they could say that they were "there". Most individual countries would have trouble putting together a 5000 man armored brigade.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:56 am

What is the role of Belarus? They seem to be allowing Russia free movement. Did they lose their sovereignty already to Russia?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:59 am

Internet is made to be resilient, you can't cut Russia off it, at worse they would get access from China.

Just look at Ukraine, we still get live feeds from there easily.

That's also why I'm saying this isn't grandpa's war anymore, it will be difficult to win it grandpa's way.

Apparently Putin doesn't use internet (seen on French TV from a Russian expert).
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:01 am

Estonian MEP with claims that Putin is furious with the lack of success in the war, and Russians can’t sustain the offensive for much longer:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RihoTerras/s ... OJqcgpAAAA

Reports Russian conscripts are en masse refusing orders to fight in the Ukraine:

https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/sta ... 1521311746

Ukrainians are going to need it. By all accounts the more professional parts of the Russian army, Airborne troops, Spetsnaz special forces and armoured units are making a massive push for Kiev and Kharkov tonight. Both cities under massive attack at the moment. Putin’s making a push to capture either city imminently.

CNN spotted a Russian tank column with rocket artillery moving towards Kharkov last night.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:02 am

Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine asked Musk to activate starlink as Russians are disrupting the net.
10h later Elon replied that starlink is operational in Ukraine and he is sending terminals asap.

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1497 ... 37413?s=21
https://twitter.com/apompliano/status/1 ... 57641?s=21
Last edited by PixelPilot on Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:03 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
What is the role of Belarus? They seem to be allowing Russia free movement. Did they lose their sovereignty already to Russia?


Yes. And today they will "vote" on allowing Russian nukes on their soil, breaking the NPT.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/02/26/be ... ssia-nato/

Apparently the dictator has assured Macron that nukes will not be allowed if Belarus isn't under threat. Feel free to believe him.

https://tass.com/world/1412229
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:16 am

ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
You mean French or UK right as Europeans say the US can't be trusted so their gravity bombs are a no go.


An EU nation has command and control over its own nuclear arsenal.

Never knew they bought those gravity bombs from the USA, I thought the USA agreed to "consult" on deployment, learn something new each day.

ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
So Spain prior to the shooting denying US access to air space for a show of force was them being a US lackey?


Does Spain controls US activities and bases across the EU?

As you said above, Spain controls their air space and additional tankers were required since overflight was denied.

ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
Posters here are telling us how mighty the EU nations are militarily and economically compared to Russia, and how this was built up since the US abandoned Europe in perpetuity under Trump, so it should be simple.


Simple or not, who would it be good for? The US? EU? Russia? China?

One would think the EU, unless the EU decides to pull a France and send the Ukraine refugees across the Atlantic.


ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
We get that Europe does not want war, they do not support the USA being the world policeman, but this is Europe where they know what it is to be bombed, this is the 4th time war has kicked off in Europe, obviously what they did in the previous 4 did not work, now is the time for them to look forward and see what they can do to prevent number 5.


Anytime they talk about an EU defence force, the US opposes it. Why?

Since when has Europe been the lackey of the USA, how did the USA allow the formation of the EU as a rival, or the building up of their own defense industry as another rival?
ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
Point being: everyone recognizes that a united “west” is stronger than a divided one.

United west where, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Iran, Crimea, Georgia, Ukraine?? Fact is the EU was created to be an economic power house alternative to the USA, military projects created in Europe for independence from the USA - Airbus for example to maintain EU civil aviation industry - all this competition does spill over, let's not pretend that politicians know when to turn this competition / independence off. Hence the reason for an EU army as a bulwark to NATO, the US was able to use NATO, they will not be able to do that with the EU army.
Greater independence does create greater responsibility, the EU has used their economic might to dominate / influence trade and financial activities / services in Africa, the Caribbean and is expanding to Asia, so it is not as if the EU and European nations are novices in attempting to influence other nations.
In this case it did not prevent another shooting war at their doorstep, we are all looking forward to a new strategy to prevent another, hope springs eternal.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:29 am

Virtual737 wrote:
It is very difficult to have any discussion about even the short term future of NATO when there is still the obvious elephant in the room - Trump.

While he remains a potential future POTUS (and how in the world is that still possible?), any responsible NATO member must remain doubtful that the organisation will still exist in just a few years time. How that man can have any followers left in the US after his recent comments about Putin is totally beyond me. We talk about Putin being deranged. He's not the only one.

How exactly is Trump going to get the USA to leave NATO, recall the adversarial political system that the USA has that Europeans are so critical of? How about when any POTUS wants to close bases and the congress disagrees, suddenly Trump is all that, other than talk and attempting to level USA trade deficits, how much military force and bases did he remove from Europe?
So not only is Trump the reason why Ukraine was invaded but a potential of Trump will be the reason why Europe does not defend itself, really?
Wow, is all I can say, wow.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:29 am

So apparently this happened: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 939074001/

Ukrainian border guards on Snake Island said "go f*** yourself" to Russian warship.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:39 am

TheSonntag wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Serious question: Why isn't Russia being cutoff from the internet? That seems like an effective sanction. It would disrupt business enough to matter.

Lightsaber


That would be stupid. After all the Internet is one of the ways to spread news on the war in russia around the kremlin Propaganda.

However, what I can tell you from my experimente in Germany is that apparently we are more resilient against russian Desinformation campaigns. In 2014 german Websites were flooded with bots claiming russian Propaganda. This has become much less recently.

So you believe that dissent in Russia is somehow comparable to the "West" and does influence Putin?
If that was / is the case, one has to wonder why an equivalent to Radio Free Europe was not being broadcast into Russia and on the internet when Putin started doing bad things. I suspect the fact that he would retaliate and slow down oil and gas shipments was a dis-incentive.
A question, does anyone now believe that the gas shortage and higher prices over the winter was to raise funds for this invasion or at least a warning to show the power to influence that is available to be used?
 
Derico
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:49 am

The Ukrainians are not making it a pleasant last couple of days for the staff at the Russian Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, a country with the most liberal freedom of protest rights in the world., including banging right upon the protective fence of the embassy building, and spray-painting messages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rdq9CXDlnQ
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:19 am

par13del wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
You mean French or UK right as Europeans say the US can't be trusted so their gravity bombs are a no go.


An EU nation has command and control over its own nuclear arsenal.

Never knew they bought those gravity bombs from the USA, I thought the USA agreed to "consult" on deployment, learn something new each day.

ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
So Spain prior to the shooting denying US access to air space for a show of force was them being a US lackey?


Does Spain controls US activities and bases across the EU?

As you said above, Spain controls their air space and additional tankers were required since overflight was denied.

ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
Posters here are telling us how mighty the EU nations are militarily and economically compared to Russia, and how this was built up since the US abandoned Europe in perpetuity under Trump, so it should be simple.


Simple or not, who would it be good for? The US? EU? Russia? China?

One would think the EU, unless the EU decides to pull a France and send the Ukraine refugees across the Atlantic.


ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
We get that Europe does not want war, they do not support the USA being the world policeman, but this is Europe where they know what it is to be bombed, this is the 4th time war has kicked off in Europe, obviously what they did in the previous 4 did not work, now is the time for them to look forward and see what they can do to prevent number 5.


Anytime they talk about an EU defence force, the US opposes it. Why?

Since when has Europe been the lackey of the USA, how did the USA allow the formation of the EU as a rival, or the building up of their own defense industry as another rival?
ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
Point being: everyone recognizes that a united “west” is stronger than a divided one.

United west where, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Iran, Crimea, Georgia, Ukraine?? Fact is the EU was created to be an economic power house alternative to the USA, military projects created in Europe for independence from the USA - Airbus for example to maintain EU civil aviation industry - all this competition does spill over, let's not pretend that politicians know when to turn this competition / independence off. Hence the reason for an EU army as a bulwark to NATO, the US was able to use NATO, they will not be able to do that with the EU army.
Greater independence does create greater responsibility, the EU has used their economic might to dominate / influence trade and financial activities / services in Africa, the Caribbean and is expanding to Asia, so it is not as if the EU and European nations are novices in attempting to influence other nations.
In this case it did not prevent another shooting war at their doorstep, we are all looking forward to a new strategy to prevent another, hope springs eternal.


Yeah, sorry, that’s just a lot of random straw men (refugees across the Atlantic? What?; Spanish airspace etc). You built them on your own; you’re welcome to fight them on your own.

Doesn’t change the fact that that the “west” has been under high levels of stress due to Brexit and Trump. Putin’s seen that as weakness and tried to exploit it. He knew there would be different responses from across the west. That’s what the entire SWIFT delay was about - a couple of EU countries questioning whether the economic damage was worthwhile given that the UK is still locked in a Brexit tussle with them, and the US likely will be too in 2 years under the next R president.

And Putin almost got away with it too. If it hadn’t been for the sheer audacity of Zelensky and the Ukrainian military, a new regime would be in place by now, and we’d be back to the Northern Ireland Protocol; US Republicans lining up to dump on Canada over truckers; and the US tearing itself apart over the latest “culture war” between D and R. All facets of a strong “west”. Not.

We were all so wrapped up in ourselves thanks to all that myopic nonsense, we all wrote Ukraine off. We didn’t count on them not writing themselves off. A simple message - “Russian warship, go $&@“ yourself” has done more to focus minds than anything else to date.

Hopefully our leaders understand that rebuilding the west - especially trust and confidence after Brexit and Trump - is better for European and global security than the self-interested silliness that consumed some of them in 2016 - and inevitably most of them until the past few days.

And FWIW, by “united”, I mean willing to make sacrifices for the greater common good of the west (e.g. agree to and fully apply stringent sanctions etc). That willingness to accept likely disproportionate economic damage - to advance western interests - is the antithesis of the self-interested nationalism of Brexit and America First.
 
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seb146
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:39 am

Russian state media is propaganda. It is pro-Putin. We know that. I just wonder, as a radio geek: how can the Kremlin cut off radio signals from, say, Helsinki or Tallinn? Russians living their lives in St. Petersburg can still listen to shortwave or medium wave broadcasts from Estonia and Finland. I just wonder if Russians are listening to both sides of the debate and siding with the truth, even faced with being hauled off to Siberia for speaking out against Putin?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:42 am

Aesma wrote:
Internet is made to be resilient, you can't cut Russia off it, at worse they would get access from China.

Just look at Ukraine, we still get live feeds from there easily.

That's also why I'm saying this isn't grandpa's war anymore, it will be difficult to win it grandpa's way.

Apparently Putin doesn't use internet (seen on French TV from a Russian expert).

Russian IP addresses could be blocked by Western nations. That would be enough.

I'm looking for sanctions with a "bite." Something to discourage action. So far, the half way sanctions just encourage the invasion, in my opinion.

I'm not thinking grandpa's war. I'm thinking how to run an economic war to discourage the physical war as what has been done so far is obviously not enough.



Lightsaber
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:47 am

par13del wrote:
How exactly is Trump going to get the USA to leave NATO, recall the adversarial political system that the USA has that Europeans are so critical of? How about when any POTUS wants to close bases and the congress disagrees, suddenly Trump is all that, other than talk and attempting to level USA trade deficits, how much military force and bases did he remove from Europe?
So not only is Trump the reason why Ukraine was invaded but a potential of Trump will be the reason why Europe does not defend itself, really?
Wow, is all I can say, wow.


I have to admit I can’t figure out how you reached the conclusion you did from what Virtual737 posted. Might want to reread it before putting words in their mouth.

Think it’s fairly clear that countries don’t have an infinite tolerance for abuse from an “ally” who praises and admires their adversaries and tries to weaken them economically. They can just stop investing, or even walk away on their own. Either way, an alliance without trust can continue to exist on paper, but it amounts to nothing at all.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:49 am

ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Doesn’t change the fact that that the “west” has been under high levels of stress due to Brexit and Trump.

In all the Brexit threads the EU supporters have always ensured that we knew the UK was just a pimple on the backside of Europe, now suddenly the UK is / was so important that Brexit distracted the all powerful EU from being ready to deter or respond to a Putin invasion?
Ok, I guess that is just as good as some saying Ukraine is not really European.....
I will agree to disagree that the Ukraine invasion is a result of Trump and Brexit.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:58 am

ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:
How exactly is Trump going to get the USA to leave NATO, recall the adversarial political system that the USA has that Europeans are so critical of? How about when any POTUS wants to close bases and the congress disagrees, suddenly Trump is all that, other than talk and attempting to level USA trade deficits, how much military force and bases did he remove from Europe?
So not only is Trump the reason why Ukraine was invaded but a potential of Trump will be the reason why Europe does not defend itself, really?
Wow, is all I can say, wow.


I have to admit I can’t figure out how you reached the conclusion you did from what Virtual737 posted. Might want to reread it before putting words in their mouth.

POTUS cannot remove the USA from NATO, only an act of congress can do that, you really believe any POTUS can do that short of Europe declaring war on the USA? So saying NATO may not exist in a few years because of a potential Trump return to power in the USA is not likely in my opinion.
Now if he wanted to say that the EU and Europeans will move to kill NATO that is more likely, since they will shift spending from NATO to a EU Army.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:04 am

par13del wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
par13del wrote:

In all the Brexit threads the EU supporters have always ensured that we knew the UK was just a pimple on the backside of Europe, now suddenly the UK is / was so important that Brexit distracted the all powerful EU from being ready to deter or respond to a Putin invasion?
Ok, I guess that is just as good as some saying Ukraine is not really European.....
I will agree to disagree that the Ukraine invasion is a result of Trump and Brexit.


I don’t think anyone on any Brexit thread downplayed the economic implications of Brexit. Or the amount of work that had to go in to make it a smooth, non-disruptive process. You’re free to pretend that it wasn’t a massive distraction filled with hostility and theatrics.

The UK was practically paralyzed by it for years and couldn’t tell friend from foe - Russian donations to political parties and persistent muddled thinking, such as Nigel Farage literally blaming NATO for provoking the invasion of Ukraine.

I don’t particularly care about whether you agree or disagree - just please stop claiming people are saying things they quite evidently aren’t saying.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:14 am

lightsaber wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Internet is made to be resilient, you can't cut Russia off it, at worse they would get access from China.

Just look at Ukraine, we still get live feeds from there easily.

That's also why I'm saying this isn't grandpa's war anymore, it will be difficult to win it grandpa's way.

Apparently Putin doesn't use internet (seen on French TV from a Russian expert).

Russian IP addresses could be blocked by Western nations. That would be enough.

I'm looking for sanctions with a "bite." Something to discourage action. So far, the half way sanctions just encourage the invasion, in my opinion.

I'm not thinking grandpa's war. I'm thinking how to run an economic war to discourage the physical war as what has been done so far is obviously not enough.



Lightsaber


Sanctions, by their very nature, have decreasing marginal returns over time; countries just adapt. Adding new ones - as we have here - can’t swing the pendulum a lot because the effects of the previous ones have probably been exhausted. The only economic sanctions that are likely to change short-term behaviour would need to be existential in nature - at which point they’re an act of war and risk military retaliation.

Short of finding ways to physically sustain the resistance, there is no way to stop or reverse the invasion.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
hkg82
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:15 am

Day 4 and Kyiv still holds on.......you've got to wonder how much longer the Russians can sustain this. NATO intelligence predicts by day 10 Russians will not have the economic strength to continue sustaining the war effort. I don't think they are any closer to occupying the city and most of Ukraine is still in government hands.

Putin has got to be worried sick.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:21 am

hkg82 wrote:
Day 4 and Kyiv still holds on.......you've got to wonder how much longer the Russians can sustain this. NATO intelligence predicts by day 10 Russians will not have the economic strength to continue sustaining the war effort. I don't think they are any closer to occupying the city and most of Ukraine is still in government hands.

Putin has got to be worried sick.


I'm actually quite surprised by the resolve of the Ukrainian military force (as well as the drafted residents). Some of the bloggers on YouTube are suggesting this could be Putin's "Vietnam".
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:25 am

"Can I tow you back... to Russia?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14gVDF2b1vA
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:30 am

par13del wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
It is very difficult to have any discussion about even the short term future of NATO when there is still the obvious elephant in the room - Trump.

While he remains a potential future POTUS (and how in the world is that still possible?), any responsible NATO member must remain doubtful that the organisation will still exist in just a few years time. How that man can have any followers left in the US after his recent comments about Putin is totally beyond me. We talk about Putin being deranged. He's not the only one.

How exactly is Trump going to get the USA to leave NATO, recall the adversarial political system that the USA has that Europeans are so critical of? How about when any POTUS wants to close bases and the congress disagrees, suddenly Trump is all that, other than talk and attempting to level USA trade deficits, how much military force and bases did he remove from Europe?
So not only is Trump the reason why Ukraine was invaded but a potential of Trump will be the reason why Europe does not defend itself, really?
Wow, is all I can say, wow.


My apologies. I had forgotten how much Trump had unified America and how highly he regarded Europe.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 1021
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:35 am

hkg82 wrote:
Day 4 and Kyiv still holds on.......you've got to wonder how much longer the Russians can sustain this. NATO intelligence predicts by day 10 Russians will not have the economic strength to continue sustaining the war effort. I don't think they are any closer to occupying the city and most of Ukraine is still in government hands.

Putin has got to be worried sick.


Developing story:

Putin has apparently ordered Kyiv to be taken by Monday at the latest. He has overridden the advice of the Airborne VDV who have said this will only happen with large numbers of casualties.

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/statu ... 7Q_sgpAAAA

US Senator Marco Rubio has indicated Russian Generals have been given some pretty significant orders, and they should not carry them out:

https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1 ... f_lckpAAAA

This correlates with the extensive bombardment of Kyiv seen overnight. Softening up defences for a mass armoured assault on the city. Apparently 500 tanks involved. The next 24 hours will be incredibly crucial.
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7664
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:25 am

af773atmsp wrote:
"Can I tow you back... to Russia?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14gVDF2b1vA


Thanks for posting this.
It affected me quite a lot, and in a number of ways.
It's only one soundbyte, but if its even remotely representative, goes some way to explain why the Russian invasion looks half-hearted.
As someone above said, I wonder if this is Putin's Vietnam?

Rgds

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos