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cpd
Posts: 7491
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:36 am

astuteman wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
"Can I tow you back... to Russia?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14gVDF2b1vA


Thanks for posting this.
It affected me quite a lot, and in a number of ways.
It's only one soundbyte, but if its even remotely representative, goes some way to explain why the Russian invasion looks half-hearted.
As someone above said, I wonder if this is Putin's Vietnam?

Rgds


Even if it does become his Vietnam moment- he is going to turn Ukraine into flattened ruins. :mad:

I hope Ukraine has some very effective defensive measures. Putin has gone mad.

Or do we have our F16s with Ukraine Air Force logos on them bombing the Russian invaders? It’s the sort of thing Russia would do.
 
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DanielsBrawley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:22 am

TOS-1A thermobaric MLRS caught on camera reportedly moving towards the capital. This thing is bad news!

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1497 ... 83042?s=21
 
ltbewr
Posts: 16335
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:33 am

Ukrainian company that maintains roads and highways along with locals are removing road directional signs and some were painted over with sayings like 'Russia go F*** yourself !" in Russian. https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-road ... 07531.html
.
 
aristoenigma
Posts: 362
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:58 am

DanielsBrawley wrote:
TOS-1A thermobaric MLRS caught on camera reportedly moving towards the capital. This thing is bad news!

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1497 ... 83042?s=21


What does it take to destroy a TOS-1A thermobaric MLRS?
 
GDB
Posts: 16226
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:04 am

aristoenigma wrote:
DanielsBrawley wrote:
TOS-1A thermobaric MLRS caught on camera reportedly moving towards the capital. This thing is bad news!

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1497 ... 83042?s=21


What does it take to destroy a TOS-1A thermobaric MLRS?


In convoy? An ambush.
Doubt the Ukrainians have a means to stop it in flight, not many militaries do, I doubt that unless something was procured some time ago and was up and integrated, which itself would have been vulnerable to SEAD.
Last edited by GDB on Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:11 am

I wonder what would be used by the Ukrainians to ambush it in a convoy. Are they equipped?
 
astuteman
Posts: 7663
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:32 am

Virtual737 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
It is very difficult to have any discussion about even the short term future of NATO when there is still the obvious elephant in the room - Trump.

While he remains a potential future POTUS (and how in the world is that still possible?), any responsible NATO member must remain doubtful that the organisation will still exist in just a few years time. How that man can have any followers left in the US after his recent comments about Putin is totally beyond me. We talk about Putin being deranged. He's not the only one.

How exactly is Trump going to get the USA to leave NATO, recall the adversarial political system that the USA has that Europeans are so critical of? How about when any POTUS wants to close bases and the congress disagrees, suddenly Trump is all that, other than talk and attempting to level USA trade deficits, how much military force and bases did he remove from Europe?
So not only is Trump the reason why Ukraine was invaded but a potential of Trump will be the reason why Europe does not defend itself, really?
Wow, is all I can say, wow.


My apologies. I had forgotten how much Trump had unified America and how highly he regarded Europe.


I must admit to finding it rather curious to be told by a US citizen, in a post now deleted, just how screwed up the UK is. The irony is not lost on me .. :)
The UK government might be screwed up, but the rest of us? We largely ignore politics and get on with life as we always have.
That aside...

This diversion into USA vs Europe in NATO leaves me feeling uncomfortable and to be honest, very sad.
A a time when the long-standing democracies in Europe and the USA should be standing together against Putin, we get this in-fighting, at least on this thread, which for me, ignores the last 60-70 years of history.
I'm 60 next month. I lived though 30 years of the cold war and MAD.
I didn't live through WW2, the vast majority of whose action was conducted in a devastated Europe, and none of it on the Continental USA, but I recognise the scars, both personal and political, that developed as a result. And I am shocked to be honest, at how moving on one generation can so effectively erase or distort the collective memory.

I get that our US colleagues think in terms of rapid deployment and force projection. Naturally so, as a future war won't be fought on their territory.
Europe? All throughout the cold war, the policy was to ensure that the European border along the iron curtain was properly defended.
In Germany's case in particular, treaties and agreements were made that deliberately limited their military might, as a direct result of the horrific scars of WW2.
I find it somewhat discomforting to see them being criticised for a stance that they were long encouraged to take.
The world will always look different from different perspectives, and we should respect that.

The reality of NATO, for me (and it may be because of what I've done for a living) is that the status quo was ultimately protected by MAD.
As unpleasant and uncomfortable as that may be. But IMO WMD have prevented WW3 for over 70 years.
And for me, that's the context of the relationship between the US and Europe in NATO.

Only the UK and France in Europe possess WMD, and together I don't believe they provide sufficient threat of MAD to properly deter a determined Russia.
That's why strong links to the USA and its umbrella, through NATO are an essential part of the relationship between the strong democracies in Europe and the USA.

For me, that's the context of why Trump and his divisive comments about his so-called allies, and his very open support to Putin, are seen on this side of the Atlantic as such an existential threat. In my view, Putin can only really ultimately be stopped from his aspirations when threatened directly with MAD - something Europe can't do on its own.

I'll ask par13del and Lightsaber to ponder whether Putin having a complete confidence that the US wouldn't intervene in any way, least of all by threatening MAD, promoted by Trump's rhetoric, was a factor in the invasion of Ukraine. If you say "no", then sorry but I think you're wrong.

I'd just point out a couple of things.
1. The history of NATO
2. Whatever mud you want to sling, democratic Europe is your emotional ally. Not totalitarian Russia. Not totalitarian China.

I'd suggest that a world where Europe is truly independent of the USA militarily and develops its own complete arsenal of WMD, is not a look anyone in the States should be promoting.

I can only ask that as a set of posters on this thread, we stand back and take a slightly more strategic look at the partnership between Europe and the USA within NATO and stand together to condemn Putin for his actions, and stop him in his tracks.

Rgds
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:39 am

aristoenigma wrote:
I wonder what would be used by the Ukrainians to ambush it in a convoy. Are they equipped?


Aside from what they have, the recent supplies from the West, just seen minutes ago very recent footage on a UK TV channel of a Ukrainian soldier with the UK supplied NLAW, sorry have looked for online for it, not the pre conflict news/training links, so with some reference to Mission Impossible, this post may be destructed, major sin if (some it seems) don’t post a link, well mods I’ve looked for one.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8976
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:50 am

Ukraine rejects Belarus for proposed peace talks from Putin - offers alternatives:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/2 ... ternatives

No kidding, if I were Zelenskyy, I wouldn't be travelling to Minsk either.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 18395
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:53 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
hkg82 wrote:
Day 4 and Kyiv still holds on.......you've got to wonder how much longer the Russians can sustain this. NATO intelligence predicts by day 10 Russians will not have the economic strength to continue sustaining the war effort. I don't think they are any closer to occupying the city and most of Ukraine is still in government hands.

Putin has got to be worried sick.


Developing story:

Putin has apparently ordered Kyiv to be taken by Monday at the latest. He has overridden the advice of the Airborne VDV who have said this will only happen with large numbers of casualties.

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/statu ... 7Q_sgpAAAA

US Senator Marco Rubio has indicated Russian Generals have been given some pretty significant orders, and they should not carry them out:

https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1 ... f_lckpAAAA

This correlates with the extensive bombardment of Kyiv seen overnight. Softening up defences for a mass armoured assault on the city. Apparently 500 tanks involved. The next 24 hours will be incredibly crucial.


Next 24 hours are critical for the Russian economy too. Former officials of the central bank are on Twitter predicting catastrophic market conditions.
 
GDB
Posts: 16226
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:59 am

Aaron747 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
hkg82 wrote:
Day 4 and Kyiv still holds on.......you've got to wonder how much longer the Russians can sustain this. NATO intelligence predicts by day 10 Russians will not have the economic strength to continue sustaining the war effort. I don't think they are any closer to occupying the city and most of Ukraine is still in government hands.

Putin has got to be worried sick.


Developing story:

Putin has apparently ordered Kyiv to be taken by Monday at the latest. He has overridden the advice of the Airborne VDV who have said this will only happen with large numbers of casualties.

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/statu ... 7Q_sgpAAAA

US Senator Marco Rubio has indicated Russian Generals have been given some pretty significant orders, and they should not carry them out:

https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1 ... f_lckpAAAA

This correlates with the extensive bombardment of Kyiv seen overnight. Softening up defences for a mass armoured assault on the city. Apparently 500 tanks involved. The next 24 hours will be incredibly crucial.


Next 24 hours are critical for the Russian economy too. Former officials of the central bank are on Twitter predicting catastrophic market conditions.


Putin needs to be careful with ignoring military advice, if particularly from the more supposedly crack units (who have not by all accounts had a good few days), which their commanders might well put down to the plan they were told to carry out, likely with assurances that the Ukrainians would fold quickly.
 
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OA260
Posts: 26540
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:09 am

Aaron747 wrote:

Next 24 hours are critical for the Russian economy too. Former officials of the central bank are on Twitter predicting catastrophic market conditions.


Always good to start a Sunday with a good news story. Cripple the Russian economy for years to come until they pay for the damage they are inflicting on Ukraine.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4724
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:28 am

Breaking: Germany to invest additional 100billion (!) EUR for defense in 2022.
 
AirbusCheerlead
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:20 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:36 am

astuteman wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
par13del wrote:
How exactly is Trump going to get the USA to leave NATO, recall the adversarial political system that the USA has that Europeans are so critical of? How about when any POTUS wants to close bases and the congress disagrees, suddenly Trump is all that, other than talk and attempting to level USA trade deficits, how much military force and bases did he remove from Europe?
So not only is Trump the reason why Ukraine was invaded but a potential of Trump will be the reason why Europe does not defend itself, really?
Wow, is all I can say, wow.


My apologies. I had forgotten how much Trump had unified America and how highly he regarded Europe.


I must admit to finding it rather curious to be told by a US citizen, in a post now deleted, just how screwed up the UK is. The irony is not lost on me .. :)
The UK government might be screwed up, but the rest of us? We largely ignore politics and get on with life as we always have.
That aside...

This diversion into USA vs Europe in NATO leaves me feeling uncomfortable and to be honest, very sad.
A a time when the long-standing democracies in Europe and the USA should be standing together against Putin, we get this in-fighting, at least on this thread, which for me, ignores the last 60-70 years of history.
I'm 60 next month. I lived though 30 years of the cold war and MAD.
I didn't live through WW2, the vast majority of whose action was conducted in a devastated Europe, and none of it on the Continental USA, but I recognise the scars, both personal and political, that developed as a result. And I am shocked to be honest, at how moving on one generation can so effectively erase or distort the collective memory.

I get that our US colleagues think in terms of rapid deployment and force projection. Naturally so, as a future war won't be fought on their territory.
Europe? All throughout the cold war, the policy was to ensure that the European border along the iron curtain was properly defended.
In Germany's case in particular, treaties and agreements were made that deliberately limited their military might, as a direct result of the horrific scars of WW2.
I find it somewhat discomforting to see them being criticised for a stance that they were long encouraged to take.
The world will always look different from different perspectives, and we should respect that.

The reality of NATO, for me (and it may be because of what I've done for a living) is that the status quo was ultimately protected by MAD.
As unpleasant and uncomfortable as that may be. But IMO WMD have prevented WW3 for over 70 years.
And for me, that's the context of the relationship between the US and Europe in NATO.

Only the UK and France in Europe possess WMD, and together I don't believe they provide sufficient threat of MAD to properly deter a determined Russia.
That's why strong links to the USA and its umbrella, through NATO are an essential part of the relationship between the strong democracies in Europe and the USA.

For me, that's the context of why Trump and his divisive comments about his so-called allies, and his very open support to Putin, are seen on this side of the Atlantic as such an existential threat. In my view, Putin can only really ultimately be stopped from his aspirations when threatened directly with MAD - something Europe can't do on its own.

I'll ask par13del and Lightsaber to ponder whether Putin having a complete confidence that the US wouldn't intervene in any way, least of all by threatening MAD, promoted by Trump's rhetoric, was a factor in the invasion of Ukraine. If you say "no", then sorry but I think you're wrong.

I'd just point out a couple of things.
1. The history of NATO
2. Whatever mud you want to sling, democratic Europe is your emotional ally. Not totalitarian Russia. Not totalitarian China.

I'd suggest that a world where Europe is truly independent of the USA militarily and develops its own complete arsenal of WMD, is not a look anyone in the States should be promoting.

I can only ask that as a set of posters on this thread, we stand back and take a slightly more strategic look at the partnership between Europe and the USA within NATO and stand together to condemn Putin for his actions, and stop him in his tracks.

Rgds


As always great post Astuteman. Me too, the bickering here between US and European posters makes me sad. I'm proud of the west and its value. Of course we make mistakes, our actions aren't always in ligne with our values, but overall I believe the west does much more god than bad.

To our American friends, I know having your own country criticised is annoying, but let me assure you that most Europeans that criticise America here, love you guys. We think the US is a great country and when we are being critical we point out stuff that we belive could make the US an even greater country. We might be wrong in our opinions, but isn't that the amazing thing about democracy and free speach: we can discuss together while respecting each other and some time agree to disagree.

And since Covid isn't completely over yet, let me just give an example were North America and Europe did amazing: development and production of vaccine.

Also to the point of European military spending: It is my feeling that many of our American friends think that we are moochers. That Americans are paying for our security. And while there is no denying the security umbrella the US gives us Europeans, I believe reality is a little more complex.
A big part of the money Europe isn't spending on its military isn't spend on ourselves but development aid: US: almost 33 billion; European countries: over 100 billion https://www.statista.com/statistics/263 ... assistance.
I for one belive the world is a better place when European countries spend more on development aid and less on military. Because make no mistake if Europe must spent more on military it will pay less for development. Heck, I even think that this very point once again shows how great the alliance between the west is: US spends more on defence making us safer, Europe spends more of development making us safer too!

Strength to the Ukrainian people,
Strength to the Russian people opposed to war,
And RIP to all the young souls dying for a stupid war most of humanity is opposed to.

Best regards,
Jonas
 
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SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 2830
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:41 am

TheSonntag wrote:
Breaking: Germany to invest additional 100billion (!) EUR for defense in 2022.


Please remember to provide a link to your source when stating facts, I do understand that this has just been announced a few minutes ago, source in German: Scholz: Sondervermögen mit 100 Milliarden Euro für Bundeswehr

This translates for me that this will be additional spending and not be "regular" defence budget.
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 4510
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:49 am

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

My apologies. I had forgotten how much Trump had unified America and how highly he regarded Europe.


I must admit to finding it rather curious to be told by a US citizen, in a post now deleted, just how screwed up the UK is. The irony is not lost on me .. :)
The UK government might be screwed up, but the rest of us? We largely ignore politics and get on with life as we always have.
That aside...

This diversion into USA vs Europe in NATO leaves me feeling uncomfortable and to be honest, very sad.
A a time when the long-standing democracies in Europe and the USA should be standing together against Putin, we get this in-fighting, at least on this thread, which for me, ignores the last 60-70 years of history.
I'm 60 next month. I lived though 30 years of the cold war and MAD.
I didn't live through WW2, the vast majority of whose action was conducted in a devastated Europe, and none of it on the Continental USA, but I recognise the scars, both personal and political, that developed as a result. And I am shocked to be honest, at how moving on one generation can so effectively erase or distort the collective memory.

I get that our US colleagues think in terms of rapid deployment and force projection. Naturally so, as a future war won't be fought on their territory.
Europe? All throughout the cold war, the policy was to ensure that the European border along the iron curtain was properly defended.
In Germany's case in particular, treaties and agreements were made that deliberately limited their military might, as a direct result of the horrific scars of WW2.
I find it somewhat discomforting to see them being criticised for a stance that they were long encouraged to take.
The world will always look different from different perspectives, and we should respect that.

The reality of NATO, for me (and it may be because of what I've done for a living) is that the status quo was ultimately protected by MAD.
As unpleasant and uncomfortable as that may be. But IMO WMD have prevented WW3 for over 70 years.
And for me, that's the context of the relationship between the US and Europe in NATO.

Only the UK and France in Europe possess WMD, and together I don't believe they provide sufficient threat of MAD to properly deter a determined Russia.
That's why strong links to the USA and its umbrella, through NATO are an essential part of the relationship between the strong democracies in Europe and the USA.

For me, that's the context of why Trump and his divisive comments about his so-called allies, and his very open support to Putin, are seen on this side of the Atlantic as such an existential threat. In my view, Putin can only really ultimately be stopped from his aspirations when threatened directly with MAD - something Europe can't do on its own.

I'll ask par13del and Lightsaber to ponder whether Putin having a complete confidence that the US wouldn't intervene in any way, least of all by threatening MAD, promoted by Trump's rhetoric, was a factor in the invasion of Ukraine. If you say "no", then sorry but I think you're wrong.

I'd just point out a couple of things.
1. The history of NATO
2. Whatever mud you want to sling, democratic Europe is your emotional ally. Not totalitarian Russia. Not totalitarian China.

I'd suggest that a world where Europe is truly independent of the USA militarily and develops its own complete arsenal of WMD, is not a look anyone in the States should be promoting.

I can only ask that as a set of posters on this thread, we stand back and take a slightly more strategic look at the partnership between Europe and the USA within NATO and stand together to condemn Putin for his actions, and stop him in his tracks.

Rgds


As always great post Astuteman. Me too, the bickering here between US and European posters makes me sad. I'm proud of the west and its value. Of course we make mistakes, our actions aren't always in ligne with our values, but overall I believe the west does much more god than bad.

To our American friends, I know having your own country criticised is annoying, but let me assure you that most Europeans that criticise America here, love you guys. We think the US is a great country and when we are being critical we point out stuff that we belive could make the US an even greater country. We might be wrong in our opinions, but isn't that the amazing thing about democracy and free speach: we can discuss together while respecting each other and some time agree to disagree.

And since Covid isn't completely over yet, let me just give an example were North America and Europe did amazing: development and production of vaccine.

Also to the point of European military spending: It is my feeling that many of our American friends think that we are moochers. That Americans are paying for our security. And while there is no denying the security umbrella the US gives us Europeans, I believe reality is a little more complex.
A big part of the money Europe isn't spending on its military isn't spend on ourselves but development aid: US: almost 33 billion; European countries: over 100 billion https://www.statista.com/statistics/263 ... assistance.
I for one belive the world is a better place when European countries spend more on development aid and less on military. Because make no mistake if Europe must spent more on military it will pay less for development. Heck, I even think that this very point once again shows how great the alliance between the west is: US spends more on defence making us safer, Europe spends more of development making us safer too!

Strength to the Ukrainian people,
Strength to the Russian people opposed to war,
And RIP to all the young souls dying for a stupid war most of humanity is opposed to.

Best regards,
Jonas

Thank you astuteman and Jonas for your contributions. I fully agree with what you wrote.

The most shocking thing for me is that people forget history and the horror of war, genocide .. you name it. As soon as future generations forget these lessons learnt, war might become an acceptable option again.

During the Cold War I was never afraid of the Russians. Remember, they even applauded to Sting‘s song „I hope the Russians love their children too“ . Nowadays? I am not so sure…
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4724
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:58 am

My Source was listening to the speech in the Bundestag. A special new budget.

He also hinted F35.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7663
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:59 am

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

My apologies. I had forgotten how much Trump had unified America and how highly he regarded Europe.


I must admit to finding it rather curious to be told by a US citizen, in a post now deleted, just how screwed up the UK is. The irony is not lost on me .. :)
The UK government might be screwed up, but the rest of us? We largely ignore politics and get on with life as we always have.
That aside...

This diversion into USA vs Europe in NATO leaves me feeling uncomfortable and to be honest, very sad.
A a time when the long-standing democracies in Europe and the USA should be standing together against Putin, we get this in-fighting, at least on this thread, which for me, ignores the last 60-70 years of history.
I'm 60 next month. I lived though 30 years of the cold war and MAD.
I didn't live through WW2, the vast majority of whose action was conducted in a devastated Europe, and none of it on the Continental USA, but I recognise the scars, both personal and political, that developed as a result. And I am shocked to be honest, at how moving on one generation can so effectively erase or distort the collective memory.

I get that our US colleagues think in terms of rapid deployment and force projection. Naturally so, as a future war won't be fought on their territory.
Europe? All throughout the cold war, the policy was to ensure that the European border along the iron curtain was properly defended.
In Germany's case in particular, treaties and agreements were made that deliberately limited their military might, as a direct result of the horrific scars of WW2.
I find it somewhat discomforting to see them being criticised for a stance that they were long encouraged to take.
The world will always look different from different perspectives, and we should respect that.

The reality of NATO, for me (and it may be because of what I've done for a living) is that the status quo was ultimately protected by MAD.
As unpleasant and uncomfortable as that may be. But IMO WMD have prevented WW3 for over 70 years.
And for me, that's the context of the relationship between the US and Europe in NATO.

Only the UK and France in Europe possess WMD, and together I don't believe they provide sufficient threat of MAD to properly deter a determined Russia.
That's why strong links to the USA and its umbrella, through NATO are an essential part of the relationship between the strong democracies in Europe and the USA.

For me, that's the context of why Trump and his divisive comments about his so-called allies, and his very open support to Putin, are seen on this side of the Atlantic as such an existential threat. In my view, Putin can only really ultimately be stopped from his aspirations when threatened directly with MAD - something Europe can't do on its own.

I'll ask par13del and Lightsaber to ponder whether Putin having a complete confidence that the US wouldn't intervene in any way, least of all by threatening MAD, promoted by Trump's rhetoric, was a factor in the invasion of Ukraine. If you say "no", then sorry but I think you're wrong.

I'd just point out a couple of things.
1. The history of NATO
2. Whatever mud you want to sling, democratic Europe is your emotional ally. Not totalitarian Russia. Not totalitarian China.

I'd suggest that a world where Europe is truly independent of the USA militarily and develops its own complete arsenal of WMD, is not a look anyone in the States should be promoting.

I can only ask that as a set of posters on this thread, we stand back and take a slightly more strategic look at the partnership between Europe and the USA within NATO and stand together to condemn Putin for his actions, and stop him in his tracks.

Rgds


As always great post Astuteman. Me too, the bickering here between US and European posters makes me sad. I'm proud of the west and its value. Of course we make mistakes, our actions aren't always in ligne with our values, but overall I believe the west does much more god than bad.

To our American friends, I know having your own country criticised is annoying, but let me assure you that most Europeans that criticise America here, love you guys. We think the US is a great country and when we are being critical we point out stuff that we belive could make the US an even greater country. We might be wrong in our opinions, but isn't that the amazing thing about democracy and free speach: we can discuss together while respecting each other and some time agree to disagree.

And since Covid isn't completely over yet, let me just give an example were North America and Europe did amazing: development and production of vaccine.

Also to the point of European military spending: It is my feeling that many of our American friends think that we are moochers. That Americans are paying for our security. And while there is no denying the security umbrella the US gives us Europeans, I believe reality is a little more complex.
A big part of the money Europe isn't spending on its military isn't spend on ourselves but development aid: US: almost 33 billion; European countries: over 100 billion https://www.statista.com/statistics/263 ... assistance.
I for one belive the world is a better place when European countries spend more on development aid and less on military. Because make no mistake if Europe must spent more on military it will pay less for development. Heck, I even think that this very point once again shows how great the alliance between the west is: US spends more on defence making us safer, Europe spends more of development making us safer too!

Strength to the Ukrainian people,
Strength to the Russian people opposed to war,
And RIP to all the young souls dying for a stupid war most of humanity is opposed to.

Best regards,
Jonas


Also a great post, AirbusCheerlead.

And thanks for the reminder that criticism invariably brings the nationalist out in most of us.
I've always been a "US-o'phile" if there is such a thing. Sort of an occupational hazard in my line of work.
But I also have great respect for our European colleagues, never mind all the Brexit hoo-hah.

At the end of the day, we are "free" countries who share (largely) a core set of values around both individual freedom, and collective freedom/responsibility.
We should hold on to that.

Rgds
 
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SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 2830
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:02 am

TheSonntag wrote:
My Source was listening to the speech in the Bundestag. A special new budget.

He also hinted F35.


No surprise with the F 35, I was actually expecting an increase, because the F35 came back into consideration as a Tornado replacement some weeks ago: Germany Tornado Replacement News and Discussion Thread
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:05 am

We have the privilige as free citizens to argue and discuss. The right to discuss and disagree is what makes us strong.
 
889091
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:13 am

TheSonntag wrote:
My Source was listening to the speech in the Bundestag. A special new budget.

He also hinted F35.


Whilst this is great news (and long overdue IMHO), this is unfortunately going to blow out inflation even further in Germany. Challenging times indeed. How will Germany raise this money? A one-off tax?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:17 am

astuteman wrote:
I'll ask par13del and Lightsaber to ponder whether Putin having a complete confidence that the US wouldn't intervene in any way, least of all by threatening MAD, promoted by Trump's rhetoric, was a factor in the invasion of Ukraine. If you say "no", then sorry but I think you're wrong.

I'd just point out a couple of things.
1. The history of NATO
2. Whatever mud you want to sling, democratic Europe is your emotional ally. Not totalitarian Russia. Not totalitarian China.

I'd suggest that a world where Europe is truly independent of the USA militarily and develops its own complete arsenal of WMD, is not a look anyone in the States should be promoting.

Trump has shown in the past few days how much he admires Putin. His claims that he could've avoided the invasion are ridiculous. He was president for 4 years and did nothing beneficial for Ukraine. On the contrary, he abused his power for personal benefit.

If the US continues to support leaders like him, Europe would do well to up their own ability at MAD. Some eastern European countries, Poland for example, might be interested in acquiring their own nukes. They've seen that Russian security guarantees are worthless without an ability to counterattack. With civilian nuclear technology becoming more popular again, the technology is there.

Although the British and French abilities shouldn't be discounted. Both combined have several hundred warheads available. The sheer numbers may not look impressive enough to deter a madman like Putin but there wouldn't be much left of Russian cities in case they get used. I would hope that someone is Russia is still sane enough to avoid that outcome.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:18 am

889091 wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
My Source was listening to the speech in the Bundestag. A special new budget.

He also hinted F35.


Whilst this is great news (and long overdue IMHO), this is unfortunately going to blow out inflation even further in Germany. Challenging times indeed. How will Germany raise this money? A one-off tax?

Most likely debt. Future generations can deal with the fallout.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:20 am

This is about to be discussed.
 
astuteman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:24 am

TheSonntag wrote:
Breaking: Germany to invest additional 100billion (!) EUR for defense in 2022.


E100Billion?
Is that a correct translation?
What is Germany's annual defence spending?

I get E50.3Bn for 2022, which sounds about right

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... 0in%202018.

An additional E100Bn is pretty large. I presume this is over a period of time, not this year...

Rgds
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:27 am

astuteman wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
Breaking: Germany to invest additional 100billion (!) EUR for defense in 2022.


E100Billion?
Is that a correct translation?
What is Germany's annual defence spending?

I get E50.3Bn for 2022, which sounds about right

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... 0in%202018.

An additional E100Bn is pretty large. I presume this is over a period of time, not this year...

Rgds


My back of a fag packet maths shows that is only around 2.5% of GDP. If they've been underspending on defense for years then an additional 2.5% injection doesn't sound unreasonable.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:29 am

TheSonntag wrote:
Breaking: Germany to invest additional 100billion (!) EUR for defense in 2022.


Maybe this invasion wouldn't be happening at all if they had met their obligations in the first place. Mho]
 
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SQ22
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:36 am

astuteman wrote:
E100Billion?
Is that a correct translation?
What is Germany's annual defence spending?

I get E50.3Bn for 2022, which sounds about right

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... 0in%202018.

An additional E100Bn is pretty large. I presume this is over a period of time, not this year...

Rgds


Here is another source in English.

My understanding money will be available in 2022, if they start new acquisition projects and pay it from the special funds it will be spent over a longer period anyway and the regular budget will not be overstrechet and can be spent for keeping the inventory up to date, maintenance etc.

Germany to Create Special €100 Billion Armed Forces Fund
 
M564038
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:49 am

To put that in to perspective of the current situation, that alone is almost 2 annual russian millitary budgets.
(Didn’t go further than wikipedia for this, but the same numbers are repeated on other more specialized sites)

SQ22 wrote:
astuteman wrote:
E100Billion?
Is that a correct translation?
What is Germany's annual defence spending?

I get E50.3Bn for 2022, which sounds about right

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... 0in%202018.

An additional E100Bn is pretty large. I presume this is over a period of time, not this year...

Rgds


Here is another source in English.

My understanding money will be available in 2022, if they start new acquisition projects and pay it from the special funds it will be spent over a longer period anyway and the regular budget will not be overstrechet and can be spent for keeping the inventory up to date, maintenance etc.

Germany to Create Special €100 Billion Armed Forces Fund
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:54 am

889091 wrote:
TheSonntag wrote:
My Source was listening to the speech in the Bundestag. A special new budget.

He also hinted F35.


Whilst this is great news (and long overdue IMHO), this is unfortunately going to blow out inflation even further in Germany. Challenging times indeed. How will Germany raise this money? A one-off tax?

The selling off of assets of those now deemed unsavoury would seem like a good way to fund at least some of that….

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
dc855
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:56 am

par13del wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
It is very difficult to have any discussion about even the short term future of NATO when there is still the obvious elephant in the room - Trump.

While he remains a potential future POTUS (and how in the world is that still possible?), any responsible NATO member must remain doubtful that the organisation will still exist in just a few years time. How that man can have any followers left in the US after his recent comments about Putin is totally beyond me. We talk about Putin being deranged. He's not the only one.

How exactly is Trump going to get the USA to leave NATO, recall the adversarial political system that the USA has that Europeans are so critical of? How about when any POTUS wants to close bases and the congress disagrees, suddenly Trump is all that, other than talk and attempting to level USA trade deficits, how much military force and bases did he remove from Europe?
So not only is Trump the reason why Ukraine was invaded but a potential of Trump will be the reason why Europe does not defend itself, really?
Wow, is all I can say, wow.


Trump could absolutely have fatally undermined NATO as this article states and people were indeed very worried about that happening during his possible second term. A second term would also have meant an emboldened Trump as all the old hands such as Kelly and McMaster would have been replaced by more pliable individuals. Would he be able to do it now if elected in 2024? This invasion of course changes the political landscape and the political cost would be much higher. However Trumps fealty to Putin is such, as shown in that infamous meeting in Helsinki, that I would not rule anything out.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/03/us/p ... hdraw.html

Actually I think the west is lucky to have Biden in power as his administration has been doing brilliant work both in using intel to undermine Putin's invasion beforehand and even more impressively in coordinating a common response with the Europeans. I am sure that it must be akin to herding cats to do that!
 
JJJ
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:14 pm

lightsaber wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Russians have been pushing boundaries/borders for over seven years and Europeans are just now talking about getting their military in order?

A little late to procure missiles, fighters, tanks and train a few hundred thousand people. Not to mention the thousands of military trucks and such for logistics.

Since rich Europe won't defend itself, I honestly believe Americans are questioning why we are defending them Afghanistan really changed the discussion in my opinion.

I don't believe Europe could deploy the equivalent of even one Marine expidiriary force. (The USA has 3, but one would need six months to train prior to deployment, in my opinion.) Then our main land force is the Army, the Navy is 2nd to none, as is true of our Air Force.

How many fighters has the EU deployed to Romania, Poland, and the Baltic? In all seriousness, only the UK and Poland has a ready (ish) military. Europe only half what they should on defense; sucks to not have it when needed.


It takes just France + Netherlands to match Russian defence budget, which combined have a population only slightly higher than half Russia's. Or Germany + Spain or any number of other combinations.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

There is a case to be made for spending it better, but NATO 2% theshold is just an arbitrary line.

Piling hardware is just one leg of the military effectiveness chair, and as we're seeing right now the Russian approach in numbers doesn't seem to be working terribly well if keeping bloated number of armour, ships and planes means you're sending confused conscripts into the front line.

The only reason Russia got away with Crimea and the Donbass is because they have nukes. And that's the ever lingering question of dealing with Russia.

Any other country trying the same would have their military bases blown up by now by a multinational coalition.
 
luckyone
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:21 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
astuteman wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

My apologies. I had forgotten how much Trump had unified America and how highly he regarded Europe.


I must admit to finding it rather curious to be told by a US citizen, in a post now deleted, just how screwed up the UK is. The irony is not lost on me .. :)
The UK government might be screwed up, but the rest of us? We largely ignore politics and get on with life as we always have.
That aside...

This diversion into USA vs Europe in NATO leaves me feeling uncomfortable and to be honest, very sad.
A a time when the long-standing democracies in Europe and the USA should be standing together against Putin, we get this in-fighting, at least on this thread, which for me, ignores the last 60-70 years of history.
I'm 60 next month. I lived though 30 years of the cold war and MAD.
I didn't live through WW2, the vast majority of whose action was conducted in a devastated Europe, and none of it on the Continental USA, but I recognise the scars, both personal and political, that developed as a result. And I am shocked to be honest, at how moving on one generation can so effectively erase or distort the collective memory.

I get that our US colleagues think in terms of rapid deployment and force projection. Naturally so, as a future war won't be fought on their territory.
Europe? All throughout the cold war, the policy was to ensure that the European border along the iron curtain was properly defended.
In Germany's case in particular, treaties and agreements were made that deliberately limited their military might, as a direct result of the horrific scars of WW2.
I find it somewhat discomforting to see them being criticised for a stance that they were long encouraged to take.
The world will always look different from different perspectives, and we should respect that.

The reality of NATO, for me (and it may be because of what I've done for a living) is that the status quo was ultimately protected by MAD.
As unpleasant and uncomfortable as that may be. But IMO WMD have prevented WW3 for over 70 years.
And for me, that's the context of the relationship between the US and Europe in NATO.

Only the UK and France in Europe possess WMD, and together I don't believe they provide sufficient threat of MAD to properly deter a determined Russia.
That's why strong links to the USA and its umbrella, through NATO are an essential part of the relationship between the strong democracies in Europe and the USA.

For me, that's the context of why Trump and his divisive comments about his so-called allies, and his very open support to Putin, are seen on this side of the Atlantic as such an existential threat. In my view, Putin can only really ultimately be stopped from his aspirations when threatened directly with MAD - something Europe can't do on its own.

I'll ask par13del and Lightsaber to ponder whether Putin having a complete confidence that the US wouldn't intervene in any way, least of all by threatening MAD, promoted by Trump's rhetoric, was a factor in the invasion of Ukraine. If you say "no", then sorry but I think you're wrong.

I'd just point out a couple of things.
1. The history of NATO
2. Whatever mud you want to sling, democratic Europe is your emotional ally. Not totalitarian Russia. Not totalitarian China.

I'd suggest that a world where Europe is truly independent of the USA militarily and develops its own complete arsenal of WMD, is not a look anyone in the States should be promoting.

I can only ask that as a set of posters on this thread, we stand back and take a slightly more strategic look at the partnership between Europe and the USA within NATO and stand together to condemn Putin for his actions, and stop him in his tracks.

Rgds


As always great post Astuteman. Me too, the bickering here between US and European posters makes me sad. I'm proud of the west and its value. Of course we make mistakes, our actions aren't always in ligne with our values, but overall I believe the west does much more god than bad.

To our American friends, I know having your own country criticised is annoying, but let me assure you that most Europeans that criticise America here, love you guys. We think the US is a great country and when we are being critical we point out stuff that we belive could make the US an even greater country. We might be wrong in our opinions, but isn't that the amazing thing about democracy and free speach: we can discuss together while respecting each other and some time agree to disagree.

And since Covid isn't completely over yet, let me just give an example were North America and Europe did amazing: development and production of vaccine.

Also to the point of European military spending: It is my feeling that many of our American friends think that we are moochers. That Americans are paying for our security. And while there is no denying the security umbrella the US gives us Europeans, I believe reality is a little more complex.
A big part of the money Europe isn't spending on its military isn't spend on ourselves but development aid: US: almost 33 billion; European countries: over 100 billion https://www.statista.com/statistics/263 ... assistance.
I for one belive the world is a better place when European countries spend more on development aid and less on military. Because make no mistake if Europe must spent more on military it will pay less for development. Heck, I even think that this very point once again shows how great the alliance between the west is: US spends more on defence making us safer, Europe spends more of development making us safer too!

Strength to the Ukrainian people,
Strength to the Russian people opposed to war,
And RIP to all the young souls dying for a stupid war most of humanity is opposed to.

Best regards,
Jonas

As an American, I read these posts and intellectually I know they’re offering valid points. I appreciate our history and have spent a fair amount of time in Europe and have positive experiences and opinions of our allies. But don’t ignore our own recent experiences on the global stage. As an American who came of age during the second Bush administration, we are damned no matter what we do. We’re criticized for an overreaching foreign policy (fairly!). We’re also expected to be the rescuer and blamed for not doing enough to prevent somebody else’s problems. Which one do people want? Because we can’t just magically keep to ourselves while defending our allies. Having said all of that, the bickering is indeed disheartening.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:34 pm

I was watching the German Bundestag debate/speaches and just had a stupid idea: what would happen if we European did a freedom convoy!
10'000s of Europeans jumping in their cars and driving to the Ukrainian front line and offering us as human shields for Ukrainian Freedom. Is there a link where I can sign up?

Best regards
Jonas
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:39 pm

https://augengeradeaus.net/2022/02/doku ... undeswehr/

In German. Yes, Billion in English is Milliarde in German, so what germany said was

1. Spend MORE than 2 percent of GDB each year from now on.
2. On top of that, a Fund in 2022 with 100.000.000.000 EUR.

Commitment to the Nuclear Partnership. Likely with F35. Eurofighter for EW. So likely the F18 is out.

Commitment to FCAS with France.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:42 pm

russian losses so far

Troops 4300
Tanks 146
Aircraft 27
Helicopters 36
Rocket Launcher 46
Armored Vehicles 706

12:11
Około 4 tys. 300 żołnierzy straciły siły rosyjskie od początku inwazji na Ukrainę — poinformowała w niedzielę wiceminister obrony Ukrainy Hanna Malar na Facebooku, dodając, że liczba ta jest weryfikowana. Według niej Rosja straciła także 146 czołgów, 27 samolotów, 36 śmigłowców, 46 wyrzutni i 706 wozów bojowych.”

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/sily-z ... wo/ztv0qk4
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 12:52 pm

luckyone wrote:
As an American, I read these posts and intellectually I know they’re offering valid points. I appreciate our history and have spent a fair amount of time in Europe and have positive experiences and opinions of our allies. But don’t ignore our own recent experiences on the global stage. As an American who came of age during the second Bush administration, we are damned no matter what we do. We’re criticized for an overreaching foreign policy (fairly!). We’re also expected to be the rescuer and blamed for not doing enough to prevent somebody else’s problems. Which one do people want? Because we can’t just magically keep to ourselves while defending our allies. Having said all of that, the bickering is indeed disheartening.


I guess we want the one where everyone has their say and the US has a less dictatorial lead. However there does need to be a lead because we can't have command purely by committee. Just when I feel sorry for the US and the flack they receive (I actually quite liked George Dubbya despite the mistakes and loved Obama), the orange man came along and showed us how bad the fringes can be, taking them to the mainstream.

The US highlights the negative sides of democracy more than I thought possible. Growing up in the UK during the 70s and 80s, I was dismayed at the level of discord between blue and red, but on occasion, when the shit hit the fan, they did (mostly) come together. The Falklands War was one example.

I don't see this from the US. The hatred (and racism and narcissism and every other negative imaginable) is right there at the surface and was elevated to levels I didn't think possible during the last administration. Biden hardly stands a chance. He is hated by many just because of what they think he represents and the lies told by his predecessor.

It is difficult to take the US seriously as a force for stability when there is such discord at home. Just look at Jan 6th 2021 and how some (many) still see it as a just expression of legal protest.

Europe is far from perfect and I don't know the answers right now, but I might when I see them.
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:17 pm

Ukraine lodges case against Russia to ICJ

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2022/0227 ... ne-russia/

It wont do much good now but I guess it is worth lodging it anyway .
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:37 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Internet is made to be resilient, you can't cut Russia off it, at worse they would get access from China.

Just look at Ukraine, we still get live feeds from there easily.

That's also why I'm saying this isn't grandpa's war anymore, it will be difficult to win it grandpa's way.

Apparently Putin doesn't use internet (seen on French TV from a Russian expert).

Russian IP addresses could be blocked by Western nations. That would be enough.

I'm looking for sanctions with a "bite." Something to discourage action. So far, the half way sanctions just encourage the invasion, in my opinion.

I'm not thinking grandpa's war. I'm thinking how to run an economic war to discourage the physical war as what has been done so far is obviously not enough.



Lightsaber



Sanctions, by their very nature, have decreasing marginal returns over time; countries just adapt. Adding new ones - as we have here - can’t swing the pendulum a lot because the effects of the previous ones have probably been exhausted. The only economic sanctions that are likely to change short-term behaviour would need to be existential in nature - at which point they’re an act of war and risk military retaliation.

Short of finding ways to physically sustain the resistance, there is no way to stop or reverse the invasion.

Then we need a virtual blockade. e.g., any aircraft or ship that goes to a Russian airport/port or overflight is denied entry in any of the countries opposing the blockade.
Deny aircraft/ship insurance to these vessels.

It is quite possible to inflict far more economic pain than is currently being done.

There has been comparatively little done on sanctions. I'm sure I'm missing dozens of ways to discourage more than has been done.

Lightsaber
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:38 pm

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-vladi ... t-12553278

Russia: Vladimir Putin orders military command to put nuclear deterrence forces on high alert

Probably scare tactics from a desperate dictator but worrying nonetheless .
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:42 pm

Besides sending some missiles, Germany will finally ramp up defense spending to 2% of GDP (minimum for Nato). Errr... a wee bit late and in my opinion, due to prior deficits in spending, it needs to be 5% to 6% of GDP to discourage the bear.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ge ... NewsSearch

Lightsaber
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:43 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
As an American, I read these posts and intellectually I know they’re offering valid points. I appreciate our history and have spent a fair amount of time in Europe and have positive experiences and opinions of our allies. But don’t ignore our own recent experiences on the global stage. As an American who came of age during the second Bush administration, we are damned no matter what we do. We’re criticized for an overreaching foreign policy (fairly!). We’re also expected to be the rescuer and blamed for not doing enough to prevent somebody else’s problems. Which one do people want? Because we can’t just magically keep to ourselves while defending our allies. Having said all of that, the bickering is indeed disheartening.


I guess we want the one where everyone has their say and the US has a less dictatorial lead. However there does need to be a lead because we can't have command purely by committee.

So how do you get a single leader if they are not dictating policy?
Why can't you have leadership by committee, do you believe that all committee's are made up of those who only have their own self preservation at heart?
The history of the world has seen such, you yourself mentioned the Falklands, so......
 
Scorpio
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:46 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
russian losses so far

Troops 4300
Tanks 146
Aircraft 27
Helicopters 36
Rocket Launcher 46
Armored Vehicles 706

12:11
Około 4 tys. 300 żołnierzy straciły siły rosyjskie od początku inwazji na Ukrainę — poinformowała w niedzielę wiceminister obrony Ukrainy Hanna Malar na Facebooku, dodając, że liczba ta jest weryfikowana. Według niej Rosja straciła także 146 czołgów, 27 samolotów, 36 śmigłowców, 46 wyrzutni i 706 wozów bojowych.”

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/sily-z ... wo/ztv0qk4

Let's be careful with reporting numbers like that. These are the numbers the Ukrainians claim. Those are just about as believable as the Russian claims they haven't lost a single soldier so far...
 
Alfons
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:48 pm

OA260 wrote:
https://news.sky.com/story/russia-vladimir-putin-orders-military-command-to-put-nuclear-deterrence-forces-on-high-alert-12553278

Russia: Vladimir Putin orders military command to put nuclear deterrence forces on high alert

Probably scare tactics from a desperate dictator but worrying nonetheless .


More than probably, he's not a Hitler ready to die for a cause. He wants a ROI from this invasion, that can be consumed. But from today, he put fear onto all countries on this planet, not just Ukraine and the EU. Let's see how the East is going to react now.
 
dc855
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:52 pm

Alfons wrote:
OA260 wrote:
https://news.sky.com/story/russia-vladimir-putin-orders-military-command-to-put-nuclear-deterrence-forces-on-high-alert-12553278

Russia: Vladimir Putin orders military command to put nuclear deterrence forces on high alert

Probably scare tactics from a desperate dictator but worrying nonetheless .


More than probably, he's not a Hitler ready to die for a cause. He wants a ROI from this invasion, that can be consumed. But from today, he put fear onto all countries on this planet, not just Ukraine and the EU. Let's see how the East is going to react now.


Putin's problem is that he screwed up by seriously underestimating both the Ukrainians and the west's response. And his second problem is that he really has no off-ramp. A cornered bear is of course extremely dangerous.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:53 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
https://augengeradeaus.net/2022/02/dokumentation-regierungserklaerung-des-kanzlers-aussagen-zur-bundeswehr/

In German. Yes, Billion in English is Milliarde in German, so what germany said was

1. Spend MORE than 2 percent of GDB each year from now on.
2. On top of that, a Fund in 2022 with 100.000.000.000 EUR.

Commitment to the Nuclear Partnership. Likely with F35. Eurofighter for EW. So likely the F18 is out.

Commitment to FCAS with France.


I really don’t need the money!!

It could be somewhat similar to the Urgent Operational Requirements the UK MoD used, starting in the 1990/91 Gulf build up prior to Desert Storm.
Again, in this century UOR’s were much used, the examples given are the tip of the iceberg, it ranged from finally fixing the SA80 rifle to A2 standard, a host of protective vehicles and even the first procurement of Reaper drones.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /70/70.pdf

This channel not only does extensive military aviation in history terms, it also has had long form interviews with experts and deence thinkers;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nymuPZtklfw

Steelchair, even if the spending was bigger, that does not change the fact that Ukraine not being in NATO limits actions, even by a superpower, what with Putin issuing nuclear threats, now recently announcing putting them on high alert. They are aimed at the US too y’know?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... rt-ukraine
Last edited by GDB on Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 1:55 pm

par13del wrote:
So how do you get a single leader if they are not dictating policy?
Why can't you have leadership by committee, do you believe that all committee's are made up of those who only have their own self preservation at heart?
The history of the world has seen such, you yourself mentioned the Falklands, so......


My words were "a less dictatorial lead". I'm assuming that most adults on this forum are aware of the significant differences between a dictator and a leader that makes decisions based on the input of a number of members. Every successful business I've worked for has leaders like that. None of them I would label as dictators.

But you already knew that.
 
AirbusCheerlead
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:20 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:04 pm

luckyone wrote:
AirbusCheerlead wrote:
astuteman wrote:

I must admit to finding it rather curious to be told by a US citizen, in a post now deleted, just how screwed up the UK is. The irony is not lost on me .. :)
The UK government might be screwed up, but the rest of us? We largely ignore politics and get on with life as we always have.
That aside...

This diversion into USA vs Europe in NATO leaves me feeling uncomfortable and to be honest, very sad.
A a time when the long-standing democracies in Europe and the USA should be standing together against Putin, we get this in-fighting, at least on this thread, which for me, ignores the last 60-70 years of history.
I'm 60 next month. I lived though 30 years of the cold war and MAD.
I didn't live through WW2, the vast majority of whose action was conducted in a devastated Europe, and none of it on the Continental USA, but I recognise the scars, both personal and political, that developed as a result. And I am shocked to be honest, at how moving on one generation can so effectively erase or distort the collective memory.

I get that our US colleagues think in terms of rapid deployment and force projection. Naturally so, as a future war won't be fought on their territory.
Europe? All throughout the cold war, the policy was to ensure that the European border along the iron curtain was properly defended.
In Germany's case in particular, treaties and agreements were made that deliberately limited their military might, as a direct result of the horrific scars of WW2.
I find it somewhat discomforting to see them being criticised for a stance that they were long encouraged to take.
The world will always look different from different perspectives, and we should respect that.

The reality of NATO, for me (and it may be because of what I've done for a living) is that the status quo was ultimately protected by MAD.
As unpleasant and uncomfortable as that may be. But IMO WMD have prevented WW3 for over 70 years.
And for me, that's the context of the relationship between the US and Europe in NATO.

Only the UK and France in Europe possess WMD, and together I don't believe they provide sufficient threat of MAD to properly deter a determined Russia.
That's why strong links to the USA and its umbrella, through NATO are an essential part of the relationship between the strong democracies in Europe and the USA.

For me, that's the context of why Trump and his divisive comments about his so-called allies, and his very open support to Putin, are seen on this side of the Atlantic as such an existential threat. In my view, Putin can only really ultimately be stopped from his aspirations when threatened directly with MAD - something Europe can't do on its own.

I'll ask par13del and Lightsaber to ponder whether Putin having a complete confidence that the US wouldn't intervene in any way, least of all by threatening MAD, promoted by Trump's rhetoric, was a factor in the invasion of Ukraine. If you say "no", then sorry but I think you're wrong.

I'd just point out a couple of things.
1. The history of NATO
2. Whatever mud you want to sling, democratic Europe is your emotional ally. Not totalitarian Russia. Not totalitarian China.

I'd suggest that a world where Europe is truly independent of the USA militarily and develops its own complete arsenal of WMD, is not a look anyone in the States should be promoting.

I can only ask that as a set of posters on this thread, we stand back and take a slightly more strategic look at the partnership between Europe and the USA within NATO and stand together to condemn Putin for his actions, and stop him in his tracks.

Rgds


As always great post Astuteman. Me too, the bickering here between US and European posters makes me sad. I'm proud of the west and its value. Of course we make mistakes, our actions aren't always in ligne with our values, but overall I believe the west does much more god than bad.

To our American friends, I know having your own country criticised is annoying, but let me assure you that most Europeans that criticise America here, love you guys. We think the US is a great country and when we are being critical we point out stuff that we belive could make the US an even greater country. We might be wrong in our opinions, but isn't that the amazing thing about democracy and free speach: we can discuss together while respecting each other and some time agree to disagree.

And since Covid isn't completely over yet, let me just give an example were North America and Europe did amazing: development and production of vaccine.

Also to the point of European military spending: It is my feeling that many of our American friends think that we are moochers. That Americans are paying for our security. And while there is no denying the security umbrella the US gives us Europeans, I believe reality is a little more complex.
A big part of the money Europe isn't spending on its military isn't spend on ourselves but development aid: US: almost 33 billion; European countries: over 100 billion https://www.statista.com/statistics/263 ... assistance.
I for one belive the world is a better place when European countries spend more on development aid and less on military. Because make no mistake if Europe must spent more on military it will pay less for development. Heck, I even think that this very point once again shows how great the alliance between the west is: US spends more on defence making us safer, Europe spends more of development making us safer too!

Strength to the Ukrainian people,
Strength to the Russian people opposed to war,
And RIP to all the young souls dying for a stupid war most of humanity is opposed to.

Best regards,
Jonas

As an American, I read these posts and intellectually I know they’re offering valid points. I appreciate our history and have spent a fair amount of time in Europe and have positive experiences and opinions of our allies. But don’t ignore our own recent experiences on the global stage. As an American who came of age during the second Bush administration, we are damned no matter what we do. We’re criticized for an overreaching foreign policy (fairly!). We’re also expected to be the rescuer and blamed for not doing enough to prevent somebody else’s problems. Which one do people want? Because we can’t just magically keep to ourselves while defending our allies. Having said all of that, the bickering is indeed disheartening.


I understand how you feel. As a Swiss citizens a few days ago when the world wide media published the Credit Swiss papers, my first reaction was a feeling of being attacked as a person. Even if I actually share the opinions given in the articles...
And that is the problem when I write a negative opinion about the US: I'll just say that one point X were I belive the US is in the wrong and won't list all the points were I think the US is doing great...

Also we should always be careful about not generalising: when I write something it is just my own opinion and it doesn't represent the attitude of the Swiss.

Best regards, and looking forward to many constructive conversations here, and hoping for a rapid end of the suffering in Ukraine,
Jonas
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2429
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:06 pm

Not sure what to make of this but delegations (Ukr/Rus) to meet on the border according to Ukraine Ministry of Defence.

https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1497933773828239366
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Sun Feb 27, 2022 2:08 pm

... but at the same time he is putting his nuclear forces on high alert, claiming that the west and NATO are being aggressive.

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-vladimir-putin-orders-military-command-to-put-nuclear-deterrence-forces-on-high-alert-12553278

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