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Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:25 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
When will the American people finally understand that Putin will not allow Ukraine to ever join NATO?


If he loses this, it's all but certain that they will join.


Indeed. Threatening them with nuclear weapons when they are not in NATO isn't the best way to persuade them not to try and join. Whether the other NATO members would be happy to let them join with Article 5 as it is might be the better question.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:36 am

M564038 wrote:
What’s Putin, a soon to be dead dictator in a different country got to do with Ukraine becoming a member of Nato, the girl scouts, the local fetisj club or anything else? It’s up to the voters of Ukraine.

blacksoviet wrote:
When will the American people finally understand that Putin will not allow Ukraine to ever join NATO?

That is not how international relations works. Ukraine is right on Russia's doorstep. Joe Biden refused to promise Putin in writing that Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO. That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.
 
astuteman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:40 am

blacksoviet wrote:
When will the Democrats finally understand that Putin will not allow Ukraine to ever join NATO? Do they think that Putin would be invading Ukraine if Trump was still president?


Damn right he would - probably with US troops in support.
Or if not troops, definitely materiel support.
You don't think that Putin was on the phone to his bestie Donald whilst all this was being plotted?
Wake up.
Last edited by astuteman on Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:45 am

blacksoviet wrote:
M564038 wrote:
What’s Putin, a soon to be dead dictator in a different country got to do with Ukraine becoming a member of Nato, the girl scouts, the local fetisj club or anything else? It’s up to the voters of Ukraine.

blacksoviet wrote:
When will the American people finally understand that Putin will not allow Ukraine to ever join NATO?

That is not how international relations works. Ukraine is right on Russia's doorstep. Joe Biden refused to promise Putin in writing that Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO. That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


Who cares what the Russian people think NATO did not invade Russia . Russia invaded a peaceful independent state where the vast majority are forward thinking Europeans. Russia only have genocide and pain to offer but the pain is about to be felt big time in Russia then maybe the Russians will realise that what their dear leader has done is also unacceptable and changed Russia forever and not in a good way . When the body bags keep massing in Russian graveyards maybe they will wake up ? Russia is a pariah now even in countries that historically have sympathies in the past. Probably because they realise the damage it will do their own country and citizens . You lay down with dogs you get fleas !
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:50 am

tommy1808 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
SQ22 wrote:

Is this confirmed Ukrainian footage? By the looks of it, none have the Z markings that Russia uses. That might make this archive footage.


They have the V marking.

This is how they arrive https://twitter.com/AmadFarouki/status/ ... 5486774274
This is where it happened: https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2 ... 262659,681

And there are burned out BMD-2, so probably airborne troops.

best regards
Thomas


Whole video, last two third (not shown on CNN) is graphik (chared to near nothing bodies), 19 APCs, 1 MBT in the front and one fuel truck were lost there. And this is the middle part, there can be more. For two or three APCs it is even hard to say, as they have exploded and thorn into small pieces.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:04 am

blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


Well, invading other countries is unacceptable to most of the planet. The way the Rubel is going down burning money for heat may soon be a cheap energy source.

best regards
Thomas
 
Alfons
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:09 am

blacksoviet wrote:
M564038 wrote:
What’s Putin, a soon to be dead dictator in a different country got to do with Ukraine becoming a member of Nato, the girl scouts, the local fetisj club or anything else? It’s up to the voters of Ukraine.

blacksoviet wrote:
When will the American people finally understand that Putin will not allow Ukraine to ever join NATO?

That is not how international relations works. Ukraine is right on Russia's doorstep. Joe Biden refused to promise Putin in writing that Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO. That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


Can you tell what are all the countries Putin doesn't want to join the NATO, or maybe even want them to get out of it? Even if it's just your opinion.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:10 am

tommy1808 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


Well, invading other countries is unacceptable to most of the planet. The way the Rubel is going down burning money for heat may soon be a cheap energy source.

best regards
Thomas

So if Putin wants to send missiles to Mexico and build a military base there do you not think that Joe Biden would invade Mexico?
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:16 am

blacksoviet wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


Well, invading other countries is unacceptable to most of the planet. The way the Rubel is going down burning money for heat may soon be a cheap energy source.

best regards
Thomas

So if Putin wants to send missiles to Mexico and build a military base there do you not think that Joe Biden would invade Mexico?


Just be thankful that as a Putin apologist you are able to freely express yourself in the West unlike Russia where plenty of decent Russians who are victims of Putin are being dragged off the streets and being charged with false accusations of treason ! Peaceful protest is not treason . What a nice thing to support .
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:26 am

blacksoviet wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


Well, invading other countries is unacceptable to most of the planet. The way the Rubel is going down burning money for heat may soon be a cheap energy source.

best regards
Thomas

So if Putin wants to send missiles to Mexico and build a military base there do you not think that Joe Biden would invade Mexico?


Yeah, he wouldn´t. Just like Cuba wasn´t invated.

Eastern Europe is a nuclear weapons free zone, so that scenario doesn´t even play when it comes to Ukraine.

best regards
Thomas
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:28 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I can see barring Russian teams, but barring Russian players (regardless of their teams) is disgusting IMO. I'm all for being tough on Russia but targeting random Russians just for their nationality is counter productive and wrong.

Literally 0 upside and plenty of downside


What is disgusting is what’s happening in Ukraine in Russia’s name.

Why should Russian elites continue to live their lives as if nothing has happened? That’s wrong. Absolutely nothing wrong with targeting high profile Russians specifically. Throw them all out and send them back to Russia. Unless they’re completely devoid of grey matter, they’ll understand exactly why it’s happening and maybe they’ll do something about it.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:29 am

Russia has no business dictating what sort of alliances nor unions independent countries (even those on their very doorstep) may or may not join voluntarily: such is a sovereign decision of the people of those independent countries alone, not that of the dictatorial leader of a neighbouring country or any other people on the planet not involved in those alliances.

The Western world is about to teach the facist in the Kremlin a very costly lesson this week: the Russian Empire of his dreams is going to be turned into one massive economic graveyard by next weekend, it seems. WIth more than 2/3rds of the forex assets of the Russian Central Bank now frozen in a coordinated and completely unexpected move by Western central banks, Russia has no other option but to introduce emergency measures like a first round of capital controls and a ban on the sales of Russian securities, likely followed by them turning on the money prints like some 3rd world banana republic. Wealth is going to evaporate like crazy in Russia the next few days and weeks.

https://www.markettradingessentials.com ... -controls/

Lines were already forming everywhere in Russia this morning to withdraw as much cash money as possible, as Russians fear they will no longer have access to their savings.
https://www.straitstimes.com/business/b ... er-ukraine

First bank to fall over is said to be European subsidiaries of Sberbank Russia, majority owned by the Russian government, due to the reputational cost of the war in Ukraine, the European Central Bank said on Monday.

Mr Sergey Aleksashenko, a former deputy chairman of the Russian central bank who now lives in the United States, said that Russia's national wealth fund would effectively disappear by these coordinated measures: "(President Vladimir) Putin and (former finance minister Alexei) Kudrin built it up for years, thinking about a major war," he said. "War has come, yet there is no money to fund it."

"The most important thing is that the West is freezing the Central Bank's reserves," former Russian prime minister Mikhail Kasyanov wrote on Twitter. "There is nothing to support the rouble with. They will have to turn on the printing press. Hyperinflation and catastrophe for the economy is not far away."

Is this why the usial trolling hasn't been going on here, so far?
Too preoccupied with standing in line to take out their own savings, rather than trolling for Putin? :stirthepot:
 
jaro76
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:58 am

OA260 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Well, invading other countries is unacceptable to most of the planet. The way the Rubel is going down burning money for heat may soon be a cheap energy source.

best regards
Thomas

So if Putin wants to send missiles to Mexico and build a military base there do you not think that Joe Biden would invade Mexico?


Just be thankful that as a Putin apologist you are able to freely express yourself in the West unlike Russia where plenty of decent Russians who are victims of Putin are being dragged off the streets and being charged with false accusations of treason ! Peaceful protest is not treason . What a nice thing to support .


Before anyone jumps on me that I'm apologist, war is wrong. No matter where. It always means innocent people dying. Seldom it is totally black and white. There are no totally clean sides when war starts. Means diplomacy failed. in 90% of the times it means both sides refused to really talk. Look into history. I'm all for democracy and freedom too. I'm probably more libertarian than most in the current west.

There were multiple warnings from people like Kennan, Kissinger, ... that we shall not expand NATO. That we shall create new architecture years ago. No one listened.

IMHO at this point we crossed Rubicon already. Unfortunately we will never know, what would happen if NATO would be morphed into an organization that would provide security to all European countries. Not only "selected democracies". Russia asked to join multiple times since 1994. Was always refused. It repeated more times since that time, including Putin when he came to power asked. Don't really think in that period Russia was any danger to others. IMHO we failed to integrate them, when they had the full desire to leave ZSSR and cold war behind. Also, we would never know what would happen if negotiations would really start here.

When USA decided that there would be no missiles on Cuba in 1962, we got really close to ww3. USA did not care about sovereignty of Cuba, about their free will to chose etc.... Now we know, thanks to released archives from USA, that on the surface it was clash of ideals. In the background, it was about both countries feeling threatened by deployed arms. One in Turkey, other in Cuba. Kennedy and Khrushchev were able to find a deal because they were actually negotiating instead of hiding behind ideals. US missiles from Turkey were pulled home soon after Russian from Cuba. Ignoring sovereignty of other countries? Yes. Good deal? IMHO great one. Diplomacy won. No war. No innocent people dying. We failed at diplomacy here.

With all of this stated, in my mind, on a blame scale 1 to 10, Putin is a clear 10. But Biden & co, us, are at 3. We are not clean. We failed too. I hope, that this war is over fast without more people dying and that we will not repeat failures again. Including those, that seeded ww2 in resolution of ww1. In WW2 we know better than after ww1 (marshal plan instead of humiliation).
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:20 am

sabenapilot wrote:
Is this why the usial trolling hasn't been going on here, so far?
Too preoccupied with standing in line to take out their own savings, rather than trolling for Putin? :stirthepot:


The absence of the troll bots has been noticeable.
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:09 am

scbriml wrote:
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Fifa not ready to ban /expel Russia from the FIFA World Cup play off qualifying.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-world- ... flaganthem


COWARDS.


Correction -

CORRUPT COWARDS.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:11 am

blacksoviet wrote:
NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.

As many other posters have replied: every sovereign country has the right to make its own decision. Maybe joining NATO is simply more attractive than being a vassal state of Russia? Sorry, you have to live with it. It’s like you are a fan of an ancient unsuccessful soccer club and you wonder why all other fans join a new club.*)

————————-
*) this was meant as a simple comparison, of course it’s much more complex
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:19 am

'Russian saboteurs' shoot dead girl and her parents in family car
The number of civilian deaths is growing by the day.

The first to be named is a 4th grade girl from Kyiv called Polina, who was in her final year of primary school.

She and her parents were shot dead by a Russian sabotage and reconnaissance group who opened fire on the family car, the city's deputy mayor Volodymyr Bondarenko said in a Facebook post

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-russ ... eblog-body

This is the kind of stuff you are dealing with . Russia can be added to the list of countries like North Korea. A boycott of Russian goods and any company that has interests in Russia is something everyone can do .
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:20 am

One thing that I cannot help but notice while watching the evacuation of Ukraine into Poland and surrounding areas is, where are all the feminists?

Born in the very early 70s, I was brought up with the notion of women and children first, hold the door open, pull out the chair, chivalry and all that old fashioned... stuff.

Ukrainian men aged 18-60 are not allowed to leave. Those than can are at the back of the queue behind the women and children. There are notable exceptional women choosing to stay behind, pick up a rifle and fight. All power to them and I can't begin to understand the courage that must take. I have zero problems with any of that. It's exactly how it should be.

It just kind of puts the new age of women and men being totally equal in anything and everything into a new light though, because when it boils down to it, we're not.

Expecting to be in the firing line for that, but I tend to say what I see.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:21 am

scbriml wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Is this why the usial trolling hasn't been going on here, so far?
Too preoccupied with standing in line to take out their own savings, rather than trolling for Putin? :stirthepot:


The absence of the troll bots has been noticeable.


Speaking of which, I'm surprised there haven't yet been widescale cyber attacks emanating from Russia in response to Western nations siding with and helping Ukraine.
 
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lugie
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:30 am

blacksoviet wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


Well, invading other countries is unacceptable to most of the planet. The way the Rubel is going down burning money for heat may soon be a cheap energy source.

best regards
Thomas

So if Putin wants to send missiles to Mexico and build a military base there do you not think that Joe Biden would invade Mexico?


I'm pretty sure Putin has tried that but somehow Mexico (one of the biggest economies of Latin America that has been constantly trying to stabilize its democracy and leave behind the era of PRI authoritarian rule while trying to control its narco wars) doesn't want to associate with a rabidly nationalist maniac who brings literally nothing to the table - an economy the size of Spain and zero regard for human rights and the rule of law...

Wonder what the reason could be why so many Eastern and Central European countries gladly join NATO but no country in the vicinity of the US (or anywhere really) is keen on associating with Putin's Russia :scratchchin:
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:46 am

Apparently the EU providing weapons for Ukraine is "hostile and destabalising". (but an invasion isn't)

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-kremlin-says-eu-is-acting-in-a-hostile-fashion-towards-us-over-arms-supplies-to-kyiv-12553962
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:47 am

Francoflier wrote:
scbriml wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Is this why the usial trolling hasn't been going on here, so far?
Too preoccupied with standing in line to take out their own savings, rather than trolling for Putin? :stirthepot:


The absence of the troll bots has been noticeable.


Speaking of which, I'm surprised there haven't yet been widescale cyber attacks emanating from Russia in response to Western nations siding with and helping Ukraine.


I am sure there are continuesly cyberattacks, but not everything is reported in the media.
 
JJJ
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:16 am

zkojq wrote:
JJJ wrote:
https://www.ultimahora.es/sucesos/ultimas/2022/02/27/1704825/detenido-marinero-ucraniano-por-hundir-yate-lujo-jefe-ruso-port-adriano.html

On a lighter note (link in Spanish, haven't seen an English source yet)

The Ukrainian skipper of Rosoboronoexport's General Manager yacht has sunk it as a protest by opening the valves. It was moored in one of Mallorca's ports. A 47m ship by the name of Lady Anastasia, and valued at some 7m euro.

The unnamed sailor was arrested yesterday then sent home pending charges.


Oh my! When I was a kid, my father took me to Henderson to watch that one get launched from the shipyard (Sensation Yachts). It was named 'Aria' back then - I think I've still got the Boat International magazine that it was featured in somewhere. Sad to hear that it has sunk, but seems to be a worthy enough cause and I don't have sympathy for the owner. Are there any photos of it post sinking?


The news report was changed and now speaks of partial sinking. Only crew quarters and the engine compartment were flooded before the rest of the crew (several of them Ukrainians as well) and dockside workers prevented it from fully sinking.

The Ukrainian man in question has apparently gone (or is trying to go) back to Ukraine to enlist after being released.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:22 am

Mortyman wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
scbriml wrote:

The absence of the troll bots has been noticeable.


Speaking of which, I'm surprised there haven't yet been widescale cyber attacks emanating from Russia in response to Western nations siding with and helping Ukraine.


I am sure there are continuesly cyberattacks, but not everything is reported in the media.


I work for a rather small, less than 100 employee, company with a focus on critical infrastructure. We have literally delivered tens of thousends of secure communication nodes and intrustion detection systems in the last couple of years for power grid use alone.

best regards
Thomas
 
JJJ
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 11:28 am

Think hasn't been discussed here yet but the EU is sending Ukraine fighter jets and missiles.

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/14980294 ... RYKfn1WJdQ

I assume this means Polish/Bulgarian/Slovakian Mig-29 which are already in Ukrainian inventory and perhaps also Bulgarian Su-25s for ground attacks.

It's still an achievement that UkrAF is still flying sorties against all odds.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:17 pm

JJJ wrote:
Think hasn't been discussed here yet but the EU is sending Ukraine fighter jets and missiles.

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/14980294 ... RYKfn1WJdQ

I assume this means Polish/Bulgarian/Slovakian Mig-29 which are already in Ukrainian inventory and perhaps also Bulgarian Su-25s for ground attacks.

It's still an achievement that UkrAF is still flying sorties against all odds.


The below are my opinions.

The war in Ukraine is over. Sure, there will be some small fighting here and there, but strategically speaking, Ukrainian soldiers have no legs to stand on. Any promises of arms supply from the EU come too late, news media publishing pledges money and arms are just Europe pretending. Europe had a chance to integrate Ukraine in the EU, but Ukraine is a poor and very large country, the burden would be too heavy even for the EU.
In the past days, Western media published a lot of propaganda, for instance that Russia was running low on ammo and would need months to restock, which is ridiculous after just 4 days. It's wartime propaganda and while Putin is demonised, you have to ask yourself what the West has done for the Ukraine except exacerbate poverty.

Ukraine is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy.
That's why Biden's son suddenly became a consultant for an obscure Ukrainian gas company just months after overthrowing the pro-Russian regime in Kiev


So what's next:
Putin is probably going to demand a big chunk of Eastern Ukraine be annexed to Russia, no NATO and no EU membership.
Ukraine gets to keep Kiev.
Russia will also demand the EU and others lift sanctions on Russian airlines or see the favor returned by cutting off access to Russian airspace in reciprocal sanctions.
Cutting Russia off SWIFT could see Russia cut off gas supplies in reciprocal sanctions.

Russia has energy, so money is kind of secondary. They'll always find partners willing to trade food for energy.

In my opinion, Putin and Xi's agenda goes way beyond Ukraine. They are trying to finish off the US dollar and with it, the US economy.
The US really have themselves to blame for their huge debt pile. An empire built on IOU's. This has to end, because it empoverishes other countries while it's also destructive for the US's own sake.

This could be how they plan to achieve it:
Russia invades Ukraine, EU and US impose sanctions. Russia responds by cutting off gas supplies, commodity prices through the roof.
China invades Taiwan, EU and US impose sanctions, China reduces supply of goods, goods prices in Europe and US through the roof.
Inflation over inflation, China dumps US Treasuries, the US dollar collapses against commodities and loses reserve currency status.

Once the US Dollar / Treasuries collapse, the US economy will be destroyed.
Here is a documentary explaining how:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJd6RKsY5H4

Putin, Xi discuss shifting currency trade away from dollar - Kremlin
https://www.reuters.com/article/china-r ... SR4N2U801V

India, Russia and China Lead in Ditching the US Dollar as the Global Currency
https://eurasiantimes.com/india-russia- ... -currency/
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:22 pm

Francoflier wrote:
scbriml wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Is this why the usial trolling hasn't been going on here, so far?
Too preoccupied with standing in line to take out their own savings, rather than trolling for Putin? :stirthepot:


The absence of the troll bots has been noticeable.


Speaking of which, I'm surprised there haven't yet been widescale cyber attacks emanating from Russia in response to Western nations siding with and helping Ukraine.


They are to busy with Ukraine and are also under attack themselves.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:35 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
China dumps US Treasuries/


the US buys them on the cheap, and laughs all the way to the bank.

Sure, there will be some small fighting here and there, but strategically speaking, Ukrainian soldiers have no legs to stand on.


at the moment Russian forces are having their asses handed to them. A few weeks and they rather go back to Afganistan.

China reduces supply of goods, goods prices in Europe and US through the roof.


The west imposes Huawei level sanctions and, just like Huawei, the chinese economy essentially seizes to exist.

best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:36 pm

Do not discuss moderation in an open forum. e-mail [email protected] if you have a question or concern.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:39 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
M564038 wrote:
What’s Putin, a soon to be dead dictator in a different country got to do with Ukraine becoming a member of Nato, the girl scouts, the local fetisj club or anything else? It’s up to the voters of Ukraine.

blacksoviet wrote:
When will the American people finally understand that Putin will not allow Ukraine to ever join NATO?

That is not how international relations works. Ukraine is right on Russia's doorstep. Joe Biden refused to promise Putin in writing that Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO. That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


Ukraine is right on Russia's doorstep, like Georgia. Russia invaded these countries, so clearly they need a buffer zone to protect them from the rogue state that is Russia. I propose carving out some Russian territory at the borders with Ukraine and Georgia, and make these bits demilitarized buffer zones.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:46 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


How do you know, have you asked all of them? As far as I can tell it is only unacceptable to a certain number of them and unfortunately one of those is the dictator running the country. Based on the fact that there has been a not insignificant amount of protests against the invasion within Russia from Russian people then I would regard the statement that you made as not true. It’s clear however that people on this site recognise this too.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
hkg82
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:49 pm

Militarily speaking, what are Russia’s other options to escalate their assault? Since so far existing tactics are not working and the Ukrainians are successfully resisting on the ground and in the air.

Eg:
- Escalate the aerial bombardment even further with Tu-95s, Tu-160s, etc.? But they still don’t have air superiority yet.

- Ramp up the ballistic missile strikes?

I am curious to see if this is all Russia has or if they simply haven’t decided to takes the gloves off yet due to the fact they want to occupy Kyiv and other key cities, as opposed to obliterating them off the map.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:53 pm

hkg82 wrote:
Militarily speaking, what are Russia’s other options to escalate their assault? Since so far existing tactics are not working and the Ukrainians are successfully resisting on the ground and in the air.

Eg:
- Escalate the aerial bombardment even further with Tu-95s, Tu-160s, etc.? But they still don’t have air superiority yet.

- Ramp up the ballistic missile strikes?

I am curious to see if this is all Russia has or if they simply haven’t decided to takes the gloves off yet due to the fact they want to occupy Kyiv and other key cities, as opposed to obliterating them off the map.


Ever since Stanlingrad it is well known that destroyed cities tend to play in favor of the defenders. Rubble makes good cover.

Carpet bombing would also be a fairly safe way to get no fly zones over at least western Ukraine.

best regards
Thomas
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:27 pm

Looks like nobody mentioned it yet: Charkiv is heavily shelled again. Which is weird as Charkiv is the "most Russian" city in the Ukraine. Interesting way to help the Russian speaking population.
https://twitter.com/Den_2042/status/1498235463773138948
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:31 pm

scbriml wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Is this why the usial trolling hasn't been going on here, so far?
Too preoccupied with standing in line to take out their own savings, rather than trolling for Putin? :stirthepot:


The absence of the troll bots has been noticeable.
With the ruble sinking, maybe their pay went down so much that they're out looking for a real job?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:34 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


How do you know, have you asked all of them? As far as I can tell it is only unacceptable to a certain number of them and unfortunately one of those is the dictator running the country. Based on the fact that there has been a not insignificant amount of protests against the invasion within Russia from Russian people then I would regard the statement that you made as not true. It’s clear however that people on this site recognise this too.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



This "Issue" is very strange when you look at it. NATO's Mission Statement most would say is the exact opposite of what Putin is engaging in.
I would think most Russian citizens when put to it without recrimination would be all for NATO principals.

https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

Security in our daily lives is key to our well-being. NATO’s purpose is to guarantee the freedom and security of its members through political and military means.

POLITICAL - NATO promotes democratic values and enables members to consult and cooperate on defence and security-related issues to solve problems, build trust and, in the long run, prevent conflict.

MILITARY - NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military power to undertake crisis-management operations. These are carried out under the collective defence clause of NATO's founding treaty - Article 5 of the Washington Treaty or under a United Nations mandate, alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organisations.
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:42 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


How do you know, have you asked all of them? As far as I can tell it is only unacceptable to a certain number of them and unfortunately one of those is the dictator running the country. Based on the fact that there has been a not insignificant amount of protests against the invasion within Russia from Russian people then I would regard the statement that you made as not true. It’s clear however that people on this site recognise this too.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

So it isn’t about liberating the Ukrainian people from their drug addicted Nazi government?
IIRC that’s what Putin has stated…..
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:43 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Think hasn't been discussed here yet but the EU is sending Ukraine fighter jets and missiles.

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/14980294 ... RYKfn1WJdQ

I assume this means Polish/Bulgarian/Slovakian Mig-29 which are already in Ukrainian inventory and perhaps also Bulgarian Su-25s for ground attacks.

It's still an achievement that UkrAF is still flying sorties against all odds.


The below are my opinions.

The war in Ukraine is over. Sure, there will be some small fighting here and there, but strategically speaking, Ukrainian soldiers have no legs to stand on. Any promises of arms supply from the EU come too late, news media publishing pledges money and arms are just Europe pretending. Europe had a chance to integrate Ukraine in the EU, but Ukraine is a poor and very large country, the burden would be too heavy even for the EU.
In the past days, Western media published a lot of propaganda, for instance that Russia was running low on ammo and would need months to restock, which is ridiculous after just 4 days. It's wartime propaganda and while Putin is demonised, you have to ask yourself what the West has done for the Ukraine except exacerbate poverty.

Ukraine is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy.
That's why Biden's son suddenly became a consultant for an obscure Ukrainian gas company just months after overthrowing the pro-Russian regime in Kiev


So what's next:
Putin is probably going to demand a big chunk of Eastern Ukraine be annexed to Russia, no NATO and no EU membership.
Ukraine gets to keep Kiev.
Russia will also demand the EU and others lift sanctions on Russian airlines or see the favor returned by cutting off access to Russian airspace in reciprocal sanctions.
Cutting Russia off SWIFT could see Russia cut off gas supplies in reciprocal sanctions.

Russia has energy, so money is kind of secondary. They'll always find partners willing to trade food for energy.

In my opinion, Putin and Xi's agenda goes way beyond Ukraine. They are trying to finish off the US dollar and with it, the US economy.
The US really have themselves to blame for their huge debt pile. An empire built on IOU's. This has to end, because it empoverishes other countries while it's also destructive for the US's own sake.

This could be how they plan to achieve it:
Russia invades Ukraine, EU and US impose sanctions. Russia responds by cutting off gas supplies, commodity prices through the roof.
China invades Taiwan, EU and US impose sanctions, China reduces supply of goods, goods prices in Europe and US through the roof.
Inflation over inflation, China dumps US Treasuries, the US dollar collapses against commodities and loses reserve currency status.

Once the US Dollar / Treasuries collapse, the US economy will be destroyed.
Here is a documentary explaining how:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJd6RKsY5H4

Putin, Xi discuss shifting currency trade away from dollar - Kremlin
https://www.reuters.com/article/china-r ... SR4N2U801V

India, Russia and China Lead in Ditching the US Dollar as the Global Currency
https://eurasiantimes.com/india-russia- ... -currency/
We spoke too soon...
 
luckyone
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:57 pm

casinterest wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


How do you know, have you asked all of them? As far as I can tell it is only unacceptable to a certain number of them and unfortunately one of those is the dictator running the country. Based on the fact that there has been a not insignificant amount of protests against the invasion within Russia from Russian people then I would regard the statement that you made as not true. It’s clear however that people on this site recognise this too.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



This "Issue" is very strange when you look at it. NATO's Mission Statement most would say is the exact opposite of what Putin is engaging in.
I would think most Russian citizens when put to it without recrimination would be all for NATO principals.

https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

Security in our daily lives is key to our well-being. NATO’s purpose is to guarantee the freedom and security of its members through political and military means.

POLITICAL - NATO promotes democratic values and enables members to consult and cooperate on defence and security-related issues to solve problems, build trust and, in the long run, prevent conflict.

MILITARY - NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military power to undertake crisis-management operations. These are carried out under the collective defence clause of NATO's founding treaty - Article 5 of the Washington Treaty or under a United Nations mandate, alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organisations.

It is a tenuous argument indeed. Granted, many Russians are likely well aware of the German invasion which then dictated the post-WW2 geopolitical Soviet maneuvers. There are likely some Russians that are worried that in 50-100 years Germany or another European power won’t be as militarily disinclined as they currently are. The argument falls apartment when one considers that countries such as Poland and the Baltic states have made their own preference pretty clear and that ostensibly NATO is a defensive pact rather than an offensive one.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:59 pm

marcelh wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


How do you know, have you asked all of them? As far as I can tell it is only unacceptable to a certain number of them and unfortunately one of those is the dictator running the country. Based on the fact that there has been a not insignificant amount of protests against the invasion within Russia from Russian people then I would regard the statement that you made as not true. It’s clear however that people on this site recognise this too.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

So it isn’t about liberating the Ukrainian people from their drug addicted Nazi government?
IIRC that’s what Putin has stated…..


It seems that someone forgot to tell the majority of Ukrainians that they wanted to be “liberated”. :sarcastic:
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:01 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Looks like nobody mentioned it yet: Charkiv is heavily shelled again. Which is weird as Charkiv is the "most Russian" city in the Ukraine. Interesting way to help the Russian speaking population.
https://twitter.com/Den_2042/status/1498235463773138948


It is said, that with exception of few old grandmothers with CCCP flags, no one is cheering to them, even not the Russian speaking part. After 8 years or so with permanent thread by Russia in Donbass, it is not any more surprising. 8 years of permanent fear and terror changes minds. 8 years earlier, it would have been a total different story, but now?
This is something, history has told the world more than once, as example 1870/1871 France/Prussian (German) war. No, the German speaking in Strassbourg were not happy, to get Germans.It is not nice, to be bombed. Or third Gulf war (and the first one is still the Iraq/Iran war). Oh surprise, the Shiites had not forgotten, that USA had abandoned them and left to the mercy of Saddam at the end of the second Gulf war.
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:19 pm

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

How do you know, have you asked all of them? As far as I can tell it is only unacceptable to a certain number of them and unfortunately one of those is the dictator running the country. Based on the fact that there has been a not insignificant amount of protests against the invasion within Russia from Russian people then I would regard the statement that you made as not true. It’s clear however that people on this site recognise this too.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

So it isn’t about liberating the Ukrainian people from their drug addicted Nazi government?
IIRC that’s what Putin has stated…..


It seems that someone forgot to tell the majority of Ukrainians that they wanted to be “liberated”. :sarcastic:

Yup, and also the members over here who are blaming NATO….
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:40 pm

Switzerland closes airspace and will follow all EU sanctions.
Somebody posted this on twitter. In Polish but I <3 google translate
https://www.onet.pl/informacje/onetwiad ... v,79cfc278
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:41 pm

johns624 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
sabenapilot wrote:
Is this why the usial trolling hasn't been going on here, so far?
Too preoccupied with standing in line to take out their own savings, rather than trolling for Putin? :stirthepot:


The absence of the troll bots has been noticeable.
With the ruble sinking, maybe their pay went down so much that they're out looking for a real job?

The SWIFT uncoupling may indeed have contributed to at least their paid foreign operations being hobbled unexpectedly.

How unfortunate! :mischievous:
 
astuteman
Posts: 7581
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:46 pm

Am working from home today. Have been following this live feed from Kyiv from The Sun (yes, I know ...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QJjLyHp6x4

eerily quiet so far ....

Rgds
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:53 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
So if Putin wants to send missiles to Mexico and build a military base there do you not think that Joe Biden would invade Mexico?

Nope. Not at all. Do you honestly think that would happen?

blacksoviet wrote:
That is not how international relations works.

But invasion IS how acceptable "international relations works"?

Russia simply proved EXACTLY WHY so many nations that were under its sphere of influence control have joined or want to. Because Russia will try to dictate your freedom and control you.

Joining NATO is a choice the joining nation makes and then has to prove to the existing members that they are appropriate. NATO does not forcefully "absorb" other nations. That is what Russia does.

Tugg
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:54 pm

Klaus wrote:
johns624 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

The absence of the troll bots has been noticeable.
With the ruble sinking, maybe their pay went down so much that they're out looking for a real job?

The SWIFT uncoupling may indeed have contributed to at least their paid foreign operations being hobbled unexpectedly.

How unfortunate! :mischievous:


And the Russia-based trolls can't really work because they're still on day 3 of queueing for the ATM.
 
art
Posts: 4745
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:02 pm

FIFA (international football governing body) has suspended Russia - BBC TV news.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:08 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
johns624 wrote:
With the ruble sinking, maybe their pay went down so much that they're out looking for a real job?

The SWIFT uncoupling may indeed have contributed to at least their paid foreign operations being hobbled unexpectedly.

How unfortunate! :mischievous:


And the Russia-based trolls can't really work because they're still on day 3 of queueing for the ATM.

That's still more productive than their usual activities even so! ;)
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:12 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Russia will also demand the EU and others lift sanctions on Russian airlines or see the favor returned by cutting off access to Russian airspace in reciprocal sanctions.
Cutting Russia off SWIFT could see Russia cut off gas supplies in reciprocal sanctions.



Sanctions must remain at least until they have inflicted the most possible pain on Russia . Ending them soon would be a nonsense . Also Russia must pay for the rebuilding of Ukraine .

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