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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:15 pm

art wrote:
FIFA (international football governing body) has suspended Russia - BBC TV news.


About time.
They got hammered pretty hard for the initial decision.
I'm sure the sponsors intervened as logos of FIFA supporting business started to circulate social media aggressively.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:16 pm

luckyone wrote:
casinterest wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

How do you know, have you asked all of them? As far as I can tell it is only unacceptable to a certain number of them and unfortunately one of those is the dictator running the country. Based on the fact that there has been a not insignificant amount of protests against the invasion within Russia from Russian people then I would regard the statement that you made as not true. It’s clear however that people on this site recognise this too.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



This "Issue" is very strange when you look at it. NATO's Mission Statement most would say is the exact opposite of what Putin is engaging in.
I would think most Russian citizens when put to it without recrimination would be all for NATO principals.

https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

Security in our daily lives is key to our well-being. NATO’s purpose is to guarantee the freedom and security of its members through political and military means.

POLITICAL - NATO promotes democratic values and enables members to consult and cooperate on defence and security-related issues to solve problems, build trust and, in the long run, prevent conflict.

MILITARY - NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military power to undertake crisis-management operations. These are carried out under the collective defence clause of NATO's founding treaty - Article 5 of the Washington Treaty or under a United Nations mandate, alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organisations.

It is a tenuous argument indeed. Granted, many Russians are likely well aware of the German invasion which then dictated the post-WW2 geopolitical Soviet maneuvers. There are likely some Russians that are worried that in 50-100 years Germany or another European power won’t be as militarily disinclined as they currently are. The argument falls apartment when one considers that countries such as Poland and the Baltic states have made their own preference pretty clear and that ostensibly NATO is a defensive pact rather than an offensive one.


Putin may be having his waterloo with his push here. The thread posted below has a good rundown of what may be going on. It gets a bit "drunk" at the end. Long read, but worth it, with some Russian/Prussian/Europe history lessons/Mythology thrown in.

https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/ ... 3076915204
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:18 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
art wrote:
FIFA (international football governing body) has suspended Russia - BBC TV news.


About time.
They got hammered pretty hard for the initial decision.
I'm sure the sponsors intervened as logos of FIFA supporting business started to circulate social media aggressively.


I think FIFA knows that as a world body they need to represent the fair sport, and many competitors are not going to feel comfortable having to have a match with an aggressor country such as Russia.
 
Klaus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:21 pm

casinterest wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
art wrote:
FIFA (international football governing body) has suspended Russia - BBC TV news.


About time.
They got hammered pretty hard for the initial decision.
I'm sure the sponsors intervened as logos of FIFA supporting business started to circulate social media aggressively.


I think FIFA knows that as a world body they need to represent the fair sport, and many competitors are not going to feel comfortable having to have a match with an aggressor country such as Russia.

After even the thoroughly corrupt IOC has excluded Russia now, FIFA had no place left to hide any more! ;)
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:31 pm

Klaus wrote:
casinterest wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

About time.
They got hammered pretty hard for the initial decision.
I'm sure the sponsors intervened as logos of FIFA supporting business started to circulate social media aggressively.


I think FIFA knows that as a world body they need to represent the fair sport, and many competitors are not going to feel comfortable having to have a match with an aggressor country such as Russia.

After even the thoroughly corrupt IOC has excluded Russia now, FIFA had no place left to hide any more! ;)


I would imagine these suspensions for FIFA would be lifted sooner than the IOC as drugs aren't the reason for the ban.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:15 pm

There are reports that Belarus may join the invasion. I sorta expected it but they'll end up in even worse shape that Russia as far as being an international pariah. They don't have anything to offer.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/28/politics ... index.html
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:35 pm

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-inva ... a-12554194

Ukraine invasion: More UK sanctions on Moscow revealed - as Britons advised against all travel to Russia

A big escalation it puts them on the same do not travel list as Afghanistan !
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:38 pm

johns624 wrote:
There are reports that Belarus may join the invasion. I sorta expected it but they'll end up in even worse shape that Russia as far as being an international pariah. They don't have anything to offer.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/28/politics ... index.html

Well that is probably why they had to "assist". With Russia as there primary patron and customer, I can see Pukin calling Lukashenko and the conversation going something like this:
"Do you want us to stop paying for you? Stop protecting you? Stop buying from you? No? Then get off your ass and tell your forces to assist us in helping bring Ukraine to it senses."

Tugg
 
AeroVega
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:40 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
So if Putin wants to send missiles to Mexico and build a military base there do you not think that Joe Biden would invade Mexico?


No, he could just tell the Mexicans that they are free to station Russian missiles. And that the US is free to close it's market for Mexican goods. And that would be the end of that.
Last edited by AeroVega on Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:40 pm

OA260 wrote:
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-more-uk-sanctions-on-moscow-revealed-as-britons-advised-against-all-travel-to-russia-12554194

Ukraine invasion: More UK sanctions on Moscow revealed - as Britons advised against all travel to Russia

A big escalation it puts them on the same do not travel list as Afghanistan !

The no access for Russian vessels is a good start. We need a virtual blockade where any ship that touches a Russian port is blacklisted.

Lightsaber
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:53 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
When will the Democrats finally understand that Putin will not allow Ukraine to ever join NATO? Do they think that Putin would be invading Ukraine if Trump was still president?


When will you and your fellow Putin trolls finally understand that Putin has zero say in the matter just as well as he has zero say on Sweden and Finland's possible NATO membership.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:58 pm

Can we just take stock of the insane geopolitical shifts seen this weekend?

1. Nearly global economic punishment for Russia came together in just a few days.
2. A new Germany has emerged willing to go beyond 2% of GDP on defense spending for the first time in decades
3. Finland and Sweden have more distant ties with Moscow now than anytime since the 1960s
4. Russians - especially the wealthy - are being severed from most of the tentacles of globalization
5. Switzerland is edging out of longtime neutrality due to internal political pressure
6. China's play here remains opaque - at first they had Russia's back, now their Foreign Ministry is making self-contradictory statements on the invasion almost daily. As always $$ rules the roost there, and some observers think Xi has played Putin.

Incredible how quickly things can be reshaped.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:02 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Can we just take stock of the insane geopolitical shifts seen this weekend?

1. Nearly global economic punishment for Russia came together in just a few days.
2. A new Germany has emerged willing to go beyond 2% of GDP on defense spending for the first time in decades
3. Finland and Sweden have more distant ties with Moscow now than anytime since the 1960s
4. Russians - especially the wealthy - are being severed from most of the tentacles of globalization
5. Switzerland is edging out of longtime neutrality due to internal political pressure
6. China's play here remains opaque - at first they had Russia's back, now their Foreign Ministry is making self-contradictory statements on the invasion almost daily. As always $$ rules the roost there, and some observers think Xi has played Putin.

Incredible how quickly things can be reshaped.

....sadly all it took was actual violence and death......unfortunate that we cannot seem to learn the lessons that history teaches.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:07 pm

par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Can we just take stock of the insane geopolitical shifts seen this weekend?

1. Nearly global economic punishment for Russia came together in just a few days.
2. A new Germany has emerged willing to go beyond 2% of GDP on defense spending for the first time in decades
3. Finland and Sweden have more distant ties with Moscow now than anytime since the 1960s
4. Russians - especially the wealthy - are being severed from most of the tentacles of globalization
5. Switzerland is edging out of longtime neutrality due to internal political pressure
6. China's play here remains opaque - at first they had Russia's back, now their Foreign Ministry is making self-contradictory statements on the invasion almost daily. As always $$ rules the roost there, and some observers think Xi has played Putin.

Incredible how quickly things can be reshaped.

....sadly all it took was actual violence and death......unfortunate that we cannot seem to learn the lessons that history teaches.


Probably something to do with our gender usually calling the shots...
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:13 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Can we just take stock of the insane geopolitical shifts seen this weekend?

1. Nearly global economic punishment for Russia came together in just a few days.
2. A new Germany has emerged willing to go beyond 2% of GDP on defense spending for the first time in decades
3. Finland and Sweden have more distant ties with Moscow now than anytime since the 1960s
4. Russians - especially the wealthy - are being severed from most of the tentacles of globalization
5. Switzerland is edging out of longtime neutrality due to internal political pressure
6. China's play here remains opaque - at first they had Russia's back, now their Foreign Ministry is making self-contradictory statements on the invasion almost daily. As always $$ rules the roost there, and some observers think Xi has played Putin.

Incredible how quickly things can be reshaped.

....sadly all it took was actual violence and death......unfortunate that we cannot seem to learn the lessons that history teaches.


Probably something to do with our gender usually calling the shots...

If it were only that simple, you know the old saying, Behind every great man.......
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:17 pm

par13del wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
par13del wrote:
....sadly all it took was actual violence and death......unfortunate that we cannot seem to learn the lessons that history teaches.


Probably something to do with our gender usually calling the shots...

If it were only that simple, you know the old saying, Behind every great man.......


Perhaps but not in this case. The world's current favorite person is divorced going on several years.
 
Derico
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:21 pm

While from the beginning I wanted tough measures against Russa, I also believe we need to leave an off-ramp open. I'm not an expert on how to craft diplomacy and negotations, the off-ramp clearly CANNOT be at the expense of Ukraine in any way shape or form. But I think there should be, now that most of the world has condemned and placed tough measures, there should be a call for a conference at a neutral site (of which therer are increasingly few) between Ukraine, Russia, key western countries, and India and China. Maybe Egypt or something.

We need to get people talking, this is not a signal of weakness, it is an alternative that should always be pursued.
 
JJJ
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:33 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
When will the Democrats finally understand that Putin will not allow Ukraine to ever join NATO? Do they think that Putin would be invading Ukraine if Trump was still president?


When will you and your fellow Putin trolls finally understand that Putin has zero say in the matter just as well as he has zero say on Sweden and Finland's possible NATO membership.


He has made sure every country bordering them will apply at the earliest opportunity.

Best NATO salesman ever.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:37 pm

Derico wrote:
While from the beginning I wanted tough measures against Russa, I also believe we need to leave an off-ramp open. I'm not an expert on how to craft diplomacy and negotations, the off-ramp clearly CANNOT be at the expense of Ukraine in any way shape or form. But I think there should be, now that most of the world has condemned and placed tough measures, there should be a call for a conference at a neutral site (of which therer are increasingly few) between Ukraine, Russia, key western countries, and India and China. Maybe Egypt or something.

We need to get people talking, this is not a signal of weakness, it is an alternative that should always be pursued.


Absolutely - getting talking and potential offramp are critical. It’s also unfair to punish Russian citizens too long for what their government is pursuing.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:37 pm

Derico wrote:
While from the beginning I wanted tough measures against Russa, I also believe we need to leave an off-ramp open. I'm not an expert on how to craft diplomacy and negotations, the off-ramp clearly CANNOT be at the expense of Ukraine in any way shape or form. But I think there should be, now that most of the world has condemned and placed tough measures, there should be a call for a conference at a neutral site (of which therer are increasingly few) between Ukraine, Russia, key western countries, and India and China. Maybe Egypt or something.

We need to get people talking, this is not a signal of weakness, it is an alternative that should always be pursued.

Cue the Chinese or someone in the ME who is not as emotional as most in the west are right now, imagine Saudia Arabia initiating talks, a country that does have massive oil reserves to assist in the upcoming massive inflation and price increases?
Alas their human rights record will get in the way of such diplomacy.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:58 pm

FIFA has now made a u-turn and excluded Russia from the world cup.

https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-10013581
https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/mediase ... m-all-com/
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:01 pm

par13del wrote:
Derico wrote:
While from the beginning I wanted tough measures against Russa, I also believe we need to leave an off-ramp open. I'm not an expert on how to craft diplomacy and negotations, the off-ramp clearly CANNOT be at the expense of Ukraine in any way shape or form. But I think there should be, now that most of the world has condemned and placed tough measures, there should be a call for a conference at a neutral site (of which therer are increasingly few) between Ukraine, Russia, key western countries, and India and China. Maybe Egypt or something.

We need to get people talking, this is not a signal of weakness, it is an alternative that should always be pursued.

Cue the Chinese or someone in the ME who is not as emotional as most in the west are right now, imagine Saudia Arabia initiating talks, a country that does have massive oil reserves to assist in the upcoming massive inflation and price increases?
Alas their human rights record will get in the way of such diplomacy.
Maybe someone in South America? Maybe Chile?
 
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DanielsBrawley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:01 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Can we just take stock of the insane geopolitical shifts seen this weekend?

1. Nearly global economic punishment for Russia came together in just a few days.
2. A new Germany has emerged willing to go beyond 2% of GDP on defense spending for the first time in decades
3. Finland and Sweden have more distant ties with Moscow now than anytime since the 1960s
4. Russians - especially the wealthy - are being severed from most of the tentacles of globalization
5. Switzerland is edging out of longtime neutrality due to internal political pressure
6. China's play here remains opaque - at first they had Russia's back, now their Foreign Ministry is making self-contradictory statements on the invasion almost daily. As always $$ rules the roost there, and some observers think Xi has played Putin.

Incredible how quickly things can be reshaped.


Even the most optimistic perspectives couldn’t have envisioned this. All these entities lining up within days of Russia invading is unprecedented. Governments, businesses and global sports organizations are all squarely against Russia’s actions. Public opinion in Russia must be wavering. The government claims of genocide and nazi’ism in the Ukraine become less believable to the average Russian when nobody is standing with them and they become isolated. Something that seems insignificant in the big picture, FIFA and the World Cup, are big deals for Russians. When the news of their expulsion becomes more widespread public opinion is going to move. I just hope the Ukraine can hang on long enough for it all to come together.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:10 pm

Derico wrote:
While from the beginning I wanted tough measures against Russa, I also believe we need to leave an off-ramp open. I'm not an expert on how to craft diplomacy and negotations, the off-ramp clearly CANNOT be at the expense of Ukraine in any way shape or form. But I think there should be, now that most of the world has condemned and placed tough measures, there should be a call for a conference at a neutral site (of which therer are increasingly few) between Ukraine, Russia, key western countries, and India and China. Maybe Egypt or something.

We need to get people talking, this is not a signal of weakness, it is an alternative that should always be pursued.


It might not work on Putin, it could on those around him, who he his no doubt blaming for his own plan going so awry.
The look on his Defense Ministers face when Putin made his nuclear threats.
They’ve all done well out of him, the mansions, yachts, bling, power, travel to the best luxury holiday spots, now look at their situation. Cannot spend, nor travel and the boss might be going off the deep end and blow up the world.

Either that or China puts immense pressure on Putin.
(I bet their desires on Taiwan are being recalibrated too).
They could be the ones to try and engineer a face saving ‘out’ for Putin.
Though Putin will be aware that the last great Soviet reckless adventure, prior to Afghanistan but unlike that, with a East versus West and nuclear component, Cuba in 1962, the man behind that, after a decent face saving period, was forced out. At least he was allowed to retire rather than be shot.
Not that there is a restraining Politburo in Putin’s Russia, he made sure of that.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:18 pm

GDB wrote:
Either that or China puts immense pressure on Putin.
(I bet their desires on Taiwan are being recalibrated too).
They could be the ones to try and engineer a face saving ‘out’ for Putin.
And that would make Russia even more under the power of China...interesting. Russia may turn into a cheap natural resource colony for the PRC.
 
luckyone
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:21 pm

GDB wrote:
Derico wrote:
While from the beginning I wanted tough measures against Russa, I also believe we need to leave an off-ramp open. I'm not an expert on how to craft diplomacy and negotations, the off-ramp clearly CANNOT be at the expense of Ukraine in any way shape or form. But I think there should be, now that most of the world has condemned and placed tough measures, there should be a call for a conference at a neutral site (of which therer are increasingly few) between Ukraine, Russia, key western countries, and India and China. Maybe Egypt or something.

We need to get people talking, this is not a signal of weakness, it is an alternative that should always be pursued.


It might not work on Putin, it could on those around him, who he his no doubt blaming for his own plan going so awry.
The look on his Defense Ministers face when Putin made his nuclear threats.
They’ve all done well out of him, the mansions, yachts, bling, power, travel to the best luxury holiday spots, now look at their situation. Cannot spend, nor travel and the boss might be going off the deep end and blow up the world.

Either that or China puts immense pressure on Putin.
(I bet their desires on Taiwan are being recalibrated too).
They could be the ones to try and engineer a face saving ‘out’ for Putin.
Though Putin will be aware that the last great Soviet reckless adventure, prior to Afghanistan but unlike that, with a East versus West and nuclear component, Cuba in 1962, the man behind that, after a decent face saving period, was forced out. At least he was allowed to retire rather than be shot.
Not that there is a restraining Politburo in Putin’s Russia, he made sure of that.

I don't see him going anywhere officially. I know we've discussed a military coup and other methods of removing Putin from power in another thread. The more I've thought about it, if something happens it'll be backdoor neutering with him propped up a la the late Brezhnev years, Andropov or Chernenko while a bunch of other guys make decisions to minimize a potentially obvious power vacuum and return to early 90's Russia--which let's be clear isn't good for anybody.
 
bennett123
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:30 pm

GDB wrote:
Derico wrote:
While from the beginning I wanted tough measures against Russa, I also believe we need to leave an off-ramp open. I'm not an expert on how to craft diplomacy and negotations, the off-ramp clearly CANNOT be at the expense of Ukraine in any way shape or form. But I think there should be, now that most of the world has condemned and placed tough measures, there should be a call for a conference at a neutral site (of which therer are increasingly few) between Ukraine, Russia, key western countries, and India and China. Maybe Egypt or something.

We need to get people talking, this is not a signal of weakness, it is an alternative that should always be pursued.


It might not work on Putin, it could on those around him, who he his no doubt blaming for his own plan going so awry.
The look on his Defense Ministers face when Putin made his nuclear threats.
They’ve all done well out of him, the mansions, yachts, bling, power, travel to the best luxury holiday spots, now look at their situation. Cannot spend, nor travel and the boss might be going off the deep end and blow up the world.

Either that or China puts immense pressure on Putin.
(I bet their desires on Taiwan are being recalibrated too).
They could be the ones to try and engineer a face saving ‘out’ for Putin.
Though Putin will be aware that the last great Soviet reckless adventure, prior to Afghanistan but unlike that, with a East versus West and nuclear component, Cuba in 1962, the man behind that, after a decent face saving period, was forced out. At least he was allowed to retire rather than be shot.
Not that there is a restraining Politburo in Putin’s Russia, he made sure of that.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGM-19_Jupiter

If you read section 3, the Cuba missile crisis was more of a score draw.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:58 pm

Macron had a long talk with Putin today. Apparently he would agree to settle for Crimea as Russia and Ukraine being "neutral". So almost a status quo ante bellum. Even he must be realizing it's the best he can hope for.

https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-say ... 022-02-28/
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:07 pm

Aesma wrote:
Macron had a long talk with Putin today. Apparently he would agree to settle for Crimea as Russia and Ukraine being "neutral". So almost a status quo ante bellum. Even he must be realizing it's the best he can hope for.

https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-say ... 022-02-28/

A. That's too good a result.
B. That is not an acceptable reward for attacking and devastating another nation.
C. He will need to accept consequences/far less than he might have achieved if he had only "freed" Donbass and Luhansk.

And D. I realize he will not quietly or easily do that and might just go for broke and bomb and blast everything if he can't get what he wants.

Tugg
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:08 pm

bennett123 wrote:
GDB wrote:
Derico wrote:
While from the beginning I wanted tough measures against Russa, I also believe we need to leave an off-ramp open. I'm not an expert on how to craft diplomacy and negotations, the off-ramp clearly CANNOT be at the expense of Ukraine in any way shape or form. But I think there should be, now that most of the world has condemned and placed tough measures, there should be a call for a conference at a neutral site (of which therer are increasingly few) between Ukraine, Russia, key western countries, and India and China. Maybe Egypt or something.

We need to get people talking, this is not a signal of weakness, it is an alternative that should always be pursued.


It might not work on Putin, it could on those around him, who he his no doubt blaming for his own plan going so awry.
The look on his Defense Ministers face when Putin made his nuclear threats.
They’ve all done well out of him, the mansions, yachts, bling, power, travel to the best luxury holiday spots, now look at their situation. Cannot spend, nor travel and the boss might be going off the deep end and blow up the world.

Either that or China puts immense pressure on Putin.
(I bet their desires on Taiwan are being recalibrated too).
They could be the ones to try and engineer a face saving ‘out’ for Putin.
Though Putin will be aware that the last great Soviet reckless adventure, prior to Afghanistan but unlike that, with a East versus West and nuclear component, Cuba in 1962, the man behind that, after a decent face saving period, was forced out. At least he was allowed to retire rather than be shot.
Not that there is a restraining Politburo in Putin’s Russia, he made sure of that.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGM-19_Jupiter

If you read section 3, the Cuba missile crisis was more of a score draw.


For context, when the crisis started, the Jupiter missiles in Turkey were already due to be dismantled, apart from the political tension they created, they were deemed to be erratic to the point of being useless. Those accounts of accidents were bad enough.
Some accounts say the JFK was surprised to hear they were still there and not already in the process of being dismantled.
Likewise the dual key (with the RAF) Thor missiles in the UK and also Jupiters IN Italy, were always a short term counter to the Soviet IRBM's, until more of the new Polaris subs were deployed to the European area. And the Kennedy Administration had Polaris building and deployment on overtime.

The operation on Cuba was contingent on having the IRBM's operational and then revealing them, to 1) make a US invasion of Cuba impossible, 2) even up the 17 to 1 advantage the US had in deliverable weapons to the Eastern Bloc, for all the boasts of the General Secretary, (US spy sats had already shown a huge disparity in both bombers and even more so, ICBMs, compared to the US), until Soviet ICBM production finally ramped up after many delays and a notorious accident, 3) Use the weapons to extract concessions, most likely on the status of Berlin, which had almost caused a direct conflict the previous year and had been since the late 40's, the real running sore in East/West relations.

Once they were uncovered before being operational, the game was up, the ships on their way to Cuba started to be ordered back even before JFK's announcement and declaration of a blockade.
That is a myth, the whole 'eye to eye, they (the Soviets) blinked'.

Castro was not even told about the Soviet missiles being withdrawn until he heard it on the news.

But things are very different now, not really a Politburo to restrain Putin, he is the most reckless leader since Stalin, since when he tried to starve out Berlin, not only was the response the famous airlift but also B-29's were forward deployed to the UK, in public.
However, despite the tests and use twice, in 1947/8 the US atomic weapon stockpile was tiny and would take time to assemble into actual weapons, whether Soviet spying told Stalin that or not, he was still taking a hell of a risk with Berlin if he escalated, two years before even the first Soviet bomb test.

The Cuban plan was a rather desperate operation but made but an otherwise rational man.
Not sure that Putin is the second, not now anyway.

You could argue that almost unreported for many years, Putin has created his own highly threatening missile system and deployment with the Iskander.
Noting like that in NATO's inventory. Since the Cold War was supposed to be over, the INF treaty was signed even before that.
Which wasn't a huge issue until the K and M versions of this weapon were developed;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K720_Iskander
Last edited by GDB on Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:15 pm

Unless I missed a mention here they are getting bolder.
Iskander used.
https://defence-blog.com/russian-army-u ... r-airport/

They are also firing into residential areas. Apparently cluster munition.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60560465
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:24 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Unless I missed a mention here they are getting bolder.
Iskander used.
https://defence-blog.com/russian-army-u ... r-airport/

They are also firing into residential areas. Apparently cluster munition.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60560465


And there I was mentioning it above, it is an escalation.
 
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DanielsBrawley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:38 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Unless I missed a mention here they are getting bolder.
Iskander used.
https://defence-blog.com/russian-army-u ... r-airport/

They are also firing into residential areas. Apparently cluster munition.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60560465


I believe both these events are fresh but there is a huge fog of war limit on what’s believable and authoritative. Both sides are pushing disinformation heavily.

Earlier the Russians claimed to have destroyed a command center but there were no vehicles anywhere near it. The Ukrainian command and control have been underground and in stealth mode for weeks now.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:49 pm

Polish press.
Sat images showing a 27km (16.7 miles) convoy heading toward Kyiv.
https://www.onet.pl/informacje/onetwiad ... 7,79cfc278

**out of curiosity. Anybody here know what would actually change if Ukraine is accepted to EU during a conflict?
Besides the obvious of course.
I'm rather interested how enemy forces on EU territory would be seen as at that point in terms of legal engagement.
Seems everybody is pushing for this so I have a feeling somebody did the math and realized it will open a lot of possibilities without involving NATO forces.
Can't find much about it,
 
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DanielsBrawley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:00 pm

I’m assuming most of us have FR24 but have you noticed the number of RQ-4’s operating over the Black Sea? I’m shocked it’s even being picked up but it makes me think we have more in operation and we’re feeding a huge amount of intel to the Ukrainians?
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:05 pm

DanielsBrawley wrote:
I’m assuming most of us have FR24 but have you noticed the number of RQ-4’s operating over the Black Sea? I’m shocked it’s even being picked up but it makes me think we have more in operation and we’re feeding a huge amount of intel to the Ukrainians?

I wish the US was more supportive of Ukraine leading up to this, but I do believe that we are providing extraordinary amounts of intel to Ukraine. Perhaps even game changing amounts.

Where to ambush, where SAMs are, maybe even providing command and control, etc.

Not to minimize the bravery of the Ukrainians, of course. I'm amazed they've held on like they have. Maybe they'll pull through...
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:18 pm

Trump understands that Putin will never allow Ukraine to join NATO. That is why Trump and Putin got along so well.

https://youtu.be/PeLMmGvej-A

Tulsi Gabbard is one of the few Democrats who admits that Putin is simply drawing a line in the sand. He has already seen Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia all fall under NATO control. Putin knows that NATO is controlled by the United States. Ukraine is right on Russia's doorstep.

Joe Biden refused to declare in writing that Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO. That is why Putin is demilitarizing Ukraine. Any further NATO expansion in Eastern Europe is a threat to Russia's national security. Whether the American people like it or not, Ukraine is a vital strategic interest of Russia.
Last edited by blacksoviet on Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4538
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:20 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
DanielsBrawley wrote:
I’m assuming most of us have FR24 but have you noticed the number of RQ-4’s operating over the Black Sea? I’m shocked it’s even being picked up but it makes me think we have more in operation and we’re feeding a huge amount of intel to the Ukrainians?

I wish the US was more supportive of Ukraine leading up to this, but I do believe that we are providing extraordinary amounts of intel to Ukraine. Perhaps even game changing amounts.

Could NATO fly unmanned vehicles and start shooting? If a drone is shot down, there’d be no pilot to point to NATO involvement. Obviously change the markings.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:22 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Trump understands that Putin will never allow Ukraine to join NATO. That is why Trump and Putin got along so well. https://youtu.be/PeLMmGvej-A


Last week if somebody would say that EU will literally stick a middle finger to putin nuclear threats everybody would ask what you're smoking.
The whole policy was always around that. Do not make him mad and blah blah blah.
Yet here we are. Putin is over no matter the outcome of this war. Russians will be fine as long as they don't wait too long.
 
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DanielsBrawley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:24 pm

An interesting early analysis from Michael Kofman.

“Michael Kofman serves as Research Program Director in the Russia Studies Program at CNA and as a Fellow at the Kennan Institute, Woodrow Wilson International Center in Washington, DC. His research focuses on the Russia and the former Soviet Union, specializing in Russian armed forces, military thought, capabilities, and strategy.”

This is a compilation of twitter posts he made within the last hour or so.

https://rattibha.com/thread/1498381975022940167?lang=en
Last edited by DanielsBrawley on Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:24 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
That is why Putin invaded. NATO expansion is unacceptable to the Russian people.


Correction: it's unacceptable to paranoid and neurotic dictators who care not one jot for their populations. That sort is not to be taken seriously, in an ideal world they just scream and shout while we look on, but unfortunately this madman has nukes.
 
flipdewaf
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Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:34 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Putin knows that NATO is controlled by the United States. Ukraine is right on Russia's doorstep.


And it’s a sovereign country and can join NATO if it so wishes. Why does what Putin wants matters? You sound like one of those crazy religious people who think they can impose their moral choices on others.

If you can’t explain why putin should have a say in a foreign countries affair we can only assume you are trolling? Has the swift ban not affected you?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Last edited by flipdewaf on Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:35 pm

Many would have heard of or seen some of these;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60558621

But of course, the dark side, the real war;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKFnNsS6ixU
Last edited by GDB on Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:36 pm

Apparently not long ago Ukrainian forces eliminated in one swipe 96 tanks, 20 Grad launchers and 8 fuel support trucks near lebedyn town.
Drones and artillery were used.

https://twitter.com/nevedimka123/status ... UKGVnyG%2F
 
alfa164
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:37 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Trump understands that Putin will never allow Ukraine to join NATO. That is why Trump and Putin got along so well.


I guess it couldn't have been because Trump needed Russia's money... could it?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:38 pm

Indeed, there are several reasons for the much slower than expected Russian advance in Ukraine.

Next to the obvious miscalculation of the resistance by the Ukrainian army and population -Putin clearly really believed his own nonsense about a gang of drugaddicts ruling over 'lower Russians' as he calls Ukrainians, who were in his mind all quietly waiting to be liberated and united with the motherland of a 1,000 years ago-, it's also a fact the Ukrainian army clearly isn't blinded yet, despite the Russians knocking out most of their radar installations. This is because they likely get information from NATO radar stations flying near the conflict zone and probably also satellite image looking. Wouldnt be surprised if the raw data also comes with a professional analysis by NATO professionals to help them see what is likely going on.

Another interesting fact which I picked up from an interview with a retired general on Belgian public television is that the Russian army is apparently not moving at night?
For one reason or another, they start bombing at night to prepare the terrain so to say, but then they wait till the sun rises to start moving again.
In combination with the above, it allow the Ukrainian army time to know what is coming and to position themselves for the assault.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:41 pm

US Expelling Russian diplomats to UN.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/uni ... d-83163939
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:51 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Trump understands that Putin will never allow Ukraine to join NATO. That is why Trump and Putin got along so well. https://youtu.be/PeLMmGvej-A


Last week if somebody would say that EU will literally stick a middle finger to putin nuclear threats everybody would ask what you're smoking.
The whole policy was always around that. Do not make him mad and blah blah blah.
Yet here we are. Putin is over no matter the outcome of this war. Russians will be fine as long as they don't wait too long.


Indeed, Russia has already lost this war, regardless the outcome.

Putin can flatten Ukraine, capture and kill its leaders, replace them with puppets who will do all he wants, but the people of Ukraine have demonstrated to the Russians that the entire ideology of the Kremlin about them being one people with the Russians is just nonsense. He's 5 days into the invasion and he has already lost the war for the hearts and will have to keep large portions of his amy engaged in a constant occupation mission, fighting a popular insurgency like the Soviets had to do in Afganistan for over a decade...
As they -and NATO- found out: you can capture a county by military force, but if you can't capture the people's heart if they don't want to and the clearly don't: it's what ultimately leads to defeat time after time again. There's no way around if: Putin has lost this war already.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:27 pm

I have now seen two drive by Molotov cocktail attacks on moving one Russian tracked APC and one truck.
Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiGYO9Odggc&t=2s


Even in the Russian speaking part of Ukraine in the south, Russian soldiers are not welcomed.
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1498386319403323395
 
Duality
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - News and Discussion Thread

Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:50 pm

Lets be clear...

This isn't about NATO and "NATO encroachment'... that's just a lie. Or lets say it isn't the deeper truth.

Putin CANNOT let a former soviet state become free, democratic and prosperous. he MUST, at all costs, keep them subjugated as a failed state- an autocratic kleptocracy.

Becuase if he lets them succeed he will be dragged around Red Square with a bayonet up his ass.

Like his buddy Saddam.

Same goes for Lukashenko.

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