mfranjic wrote:

..
..As for Russia's attack on Ukraine … its a terrible and tragic what we are witnessing, but very difficult and ungrateful to explain in a few words because the causes and consequences need to be considered, and neither of them is from ‘yesterday’. When in the past it was agreed that the Soviet Union would support the unification of West and East Germany, and when the Warsaw Pact was dissolved, it was agreed that NATO would not expand towards Russia's borders. There are dilemmas as to whether this was agreed or not, but it was agreed and exists in the files and the documents. Now there is a short circuit. The question is why it was necessary to force NATO expansion if Russia was not the enemy. Or was it? It is now. They did not even ask for anyone's approval and blessing as NATO normally asks of the United Nations before embarking on its wars of conquest and bloody campaigns, killing innocent civilians.
..
..One only has to look at the map to see how much the West has kept its word that it will not spread. NATO has expanded on five occasions: Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary joined in 1999, Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia and Romania in 2004, Croatia and Albania in 2009, Montenegro in 2017 and Northern Macedonia in 2020. The result is getting closer to Russia's borders and that is the reason for the crisis ...
..
..Let's remember for a moment the tension that prevailed over the Cuban Missile Crisis (Caribbean Crisis) in 1962 between America and the USSR which escalated into an international crisis when American deployments of medium-range ballistic missile (PGM-19 Jupiter) in Italy and Turkey in 1961. was matched by Soviet deployments of similar medium-range ballistic missiles R-12 Dvina / SS-4 Sandal and intermediate-range ballistic missiles R-14 Chusovaya / SS-5 Skean ballistic missile in Cuba, when nuclear war threatened because of that. Yes, America did not invade Cuba, but it did many other countries that were not allowed to choose for themselves but America decided to choose for them instead. Should I list them?
..
..Who knows if the rockets would also come to the Russian border little by little. This should have been resolved earlier, because each of the countries that are in NATO has its own prehistory. In my opinion, the best model for Ukraine was the neutrality that Finland had, and not to force NATO membership. Yes, Ukraine is not in NATO, let alone have missiles aimed at Russia on its territory, but if NATO comes, it is always possible to bring missiles, and one should be aware of that. NATO would certainly not come to Ukraine to plant potatoes and parsley …
..
..What needs to be done now? To sit down and talk. I would like immensely the problems to be solved through the negotiations, but such problems cannot be solved by negotiations alone. The Russian army will have to withdraw because it is not Russia, but this must be resolved by agreement. Putin says the condition is the departure of the current Ukrainian government, but no state can determine for another who will be in someone's state leadership. Clearly this cannot be fulfilled. Putin made a big mistake because he turned almost the whole world against himself, but it is easiest to condemn and remains to be seen what led to this situation. We all condemn any aggression. This will be condemned by any normal man. But we have to get into the question what led to that!
..
..NATO had its role while the opponent was the Soviet Union and The Warsaw Treaty Organization, commonly known as the Warsaw Pact, and while there were ideological disputes. However, there is no more USSR for a 30 years, nor is there any danger from it, and a different NATO policy should have been pursued, unless the alliance appears to embody the Western will to limit the growth of two superpowers: Russia and China. After all, U.S. interests are behind everything because NATO does not have its own strength.
..
..When Bill Clinton was visiting Moscow on his last tour as U.S. president (3-5. June 2000; summit meeting with president Putin) he was asked what he thinks of the idea of Russia joining NATO, how they view this possibility to maintain security between the West and the East, why they don’t want Russia as friends and why they see enemies in Russia. The only answer he gave was that it is not up to NATO political regime, but that they simply do not need a country as big as Russia. The fact is that the tradition of American politics is they always need someone to fight with and Russia is always a very welcomed enemy.
..
..U.S. is deeply engaged in the current crisis, not as a defender of the West and democracy, but as a country that is almost desperate to preserve or restore the position of world hegemon, a superpower unparalleled and which decides what the world we live in will be like. It is superfluous to talk about other American interests about Europe. They do not want to accept that Europe has two masters, them and Russia. To their great regret, now they can only watch what Russia and China are doing. Or what they will do ...
..
..Since 1775. and the beginning of the American Revolutionary War, the United States has participated in 102 wars. You can count the American presidents, those who did not start at least one war during their mandate, on the fingers of one hand. The total number of foreign sites for installations and facilities that are either in active use and service or may be activated and operated by American military personnel and allies is at just over 1000 (one thousand)…
..
..My opinion is that the deep American state, its poor maidservant Europe and the heavily manipulated and exploited Ukrainian president Zelenskyy, who promised to end Ukraine's protracted conflict with Russia as part of his presidential campaign and attempted to engage in dialogue with Russian President Vladimir Putin, pushed Ukraine into the mouths of an awakened, enraged and mad bear. However, Ukraine is now alone and betrayed. The others, whatever they say or do, are still on the sidelines and just watching.
..
..I am not inclined to any of these political leaders that we are currently watching and listening to, no matter where they belong, or that I could trust any of them. More than anything, I pray for the peace in the world and to put an end to the suffering of all those involved in this war as soon as possible..
..
..As a little boy, I was so proud when my grandmother was showing me a picture of our family member Stephen Franjic, who was a U.S. Army tanker in the Korean War (died on 18. Jan 2015, at age 85, in Tampa, FL). Then I understood and knew little… A lot is clearer to me today, but it doesn’t help me too much not to be confused, depressing and unhappy when I see what this world looks like. Someone will surely benefit greatly from all this and are now happily rubbing their hands to the side. As with all the wars they stood behind and deliberately organized throughout the history. But, the God's judgment is the last. No one will escape.
..
..
….Mario, 54. Two armies, one war and 229 voluntary blood donations

NIKV69 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

ltbewr wrote:

Tonight, Tuesday, March 1st, US President Biden will be giving the annual 'State of the Union' [SOTU] speech to a live assembly of Congress (both the House and Senate), and to a world wide audience. For sure the most important part of it will be as to the USA's policies as to the invasion of Russia into Ukraine. I have started a new thread on the SOTU 2022 for discussion of it as goes beyond issues of Ukraine.

The world will be watching what the members of the GOP will do: support the President without any hesitation or not….

Haven't they been doing that so far?

PixelPilot wrote:

Starlink terminals delivery to Ukraine. Pretty cool how the VP of Ukraine just says "Thanks" and Elon replies "You're very welcome". I bet Pudding is losing hair just reading interactions like this.
https://twitter.com/FedorovMykhailo/sta ... 9ZI3LEAurQ

SteelChair wrote:

There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II

casinterest wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II

What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.

"I urge all Russian diplomats to resign in protest," he wrote on Twitter on Tuesday.

"Dear Russian diplomats, you are professionals and not free propagandists. "When I worked at the Foreign Ministry, I was proud of my colleagues," Kozyrev added. "Now it is simply impossible to support the bloody fratricidal war in Ukraine," the former minister wrote, rtv21.tv reports.

Kozyrev was foreign minister from 1991 to 1996 when Boris Yeltsin was president

marcelh wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

The world will be watching what the members of the GOP will do: support the President without any hesitation or not….

Haven't they been doing that so far?

They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….

SteelChair wrote:

casinterest wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II

What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.

Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me

masonh2479 wrote:

...I am quite surprised Finland and Sweden haven’t quick thrown in an application to NATO. Sure Finland has kicked Russian/Soviet ass before but I would think NATO would be a top priority for the attack on one attack on all clause.

SteelChair wrote:

casinterest wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II

What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.

Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me

SteelChair wrote:

There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II

jordanh wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II

Are you starting a "Let's-Give-Neville-Chamberlain-Another-Whack-at-It" Club?

SteelChair wrote:

casinterest wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II

What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.

Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me

Andrei Kortunov, the director general of Russia's Foreign Ministry, said he had long believed that a military operation was unlikely, according to Sky News, which described him as a Kremlin adviser.

- I think it is very embarrassing for us, not only because it turned out that we were wrong, but also because it puts all Russians in a difficult position.

- Many of us are depressed, I think people in the Kremlin should be depressed, he says.

His views have been ignored by the Kremlin, which has chosen to invade Russia, he said.

President Vladimir Putin is now surrounded by only an inner core of advisers, made up mostly of military, security and intelligence leaders, who have been driving forces for war.

marcelh wrote:

They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….

In the last 24 hours, Russia has been accused of using cluster munitions against, among other things, a kindergarten and a hospital in Ukraine.

The Norwegian intelligence service (E-service) now confirms that the weapons are used in Ukraine.

NIKV69 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….

This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda?

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

Dahlgardo wrote:

The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Google translate gives this translation

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

Dahlgardo wrote:

The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Google translate gives this translation

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

Dahlgardo wrote:

The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Google translate gives this translation

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.
le
An excellent post. Very chilling. I'm sure in the future, when people look at Russian history, the "tragedy" of 1991 will pale in comparison to the tragedy of 2022.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

casinterest wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

casinterest wrote:

What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.

Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me

You want them to surrender to a madman that is intent on bringing the bad ol days(USSR) back?
I think you don't value anything associated with Freedom.

The Ukrainians are fighting for what their parents,grandparents, and Great Grandparents endured.

SteelChair wrote:

casinterest wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me

You want them to surrender to a madman that is intent on bringing the bad ol days(USSR) back?
I think you don't value anything associated with Freedom.

The Ukrainians are fighting for what their parents,grandparents, and Great Grandparents endured.

Another example of cognitive dissonance. I will volunteer that I am a second amendment supporter. I believe that people have a right to protect themselves and their personal property. And I believe in personal property.

Many people who talk about freedom talk about drug legalization and free tuition. Those aren't my definitions.

It is so sad to see Ukranians dying in what is probably a losing fight. I wish them the best and hope they win but it seems impossible to me.

Dahlgardo wrote:

The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
The article is no longer available, but was saved by web.archive.com

It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins ideological reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

PixelPilot wrote:

Dahlgardo wrote:

The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Google translate gives this translation

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

Good luck?
You just did the opposite and EU has never been this strong and united.

SteelChair wrote:

casinterest wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me

You want them to surrender to a madman that is intent on bringing the bad ol days(USSR) back?
I think you don't value anything associated with Freedom.

The Ukrainians are fighting for what their parents,grandparents, and Great Grandparents endured.

Another example of cognitive dissonance. I will volunteer that I am a second amendment supporter. I believe that people have a right to protect themselves and their personal property. And I believe in personal property.

Many people who talk about freedom talk about drug legalization and free tuition. Those aren't my definitions.

It is so sad to see Ukranians dying in what is probably a losing fight. I wish them the best and hope they win but it seems impossible to me.

NIKV69 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….

This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda?

SteelChair wrote:

Another example of cognitive dissonance. I will volunteer that I am a second amendment supporter. I believe that people have a right to protect themselves and their personal property. And I believe in personal property.

Many people who talk about freedom talk about drug legalization and free tuition. Those aren't my definitions.

It is so sad to see Ukranians dying in what is probably a losing fight. I wish them the best and hope they win but it seems impossible to me.

PixelPilot wrote:

Very interesting thread about intelligence and surveillance.
Almost sounds surreal when you read it and listen to the audio.
https://twitter.com/sbreakintl/status/1 ... bteBYUv6FQ

Nord Stream 2 Operator files for bankruptcy.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ussia-gas/

Klaus wrote:

1. The corruption and ineptitude within the russian army is so endemic that they are simply unable to stage a competent invasion any more (not that I'd shed a tear about that!). That they're apparently sending un-briefed conscripts with rations expired since 2015(!) according to one tweet would be baffling for an army in really good shape.

2. The invasion was sabotaged from the top, with the frustrated top brass unable to dissuade an obsessed Vladimir Putin from embarking on this harebrained adventure and deliberately setting it up to fail by not putting any competent planning into it, hoping for the inevitable disaster to take Putin down with it (preferably before he'd get around to murdering them).

Nord Stream 2 Operator files for bankruptcy.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ussia-gas/

Couldn't have happened to a nicer project specifically designed to undermine a whole number of other countries!

art wrote:

masonh2479 wrote:

...I am quite surprised Finland and Sweden haven’t quick thrown in an application to NATO. Sure Finland has kicked Russian/Soviet ass before but I would think NATO would be a top priority for the attack on one attack on all clause.

One thing that has become extremely clear is that NATO will not intervene if you are attacked by Russia and not in NATO. So what is Finland's strategy if Russia attacks?

“I want to be crystal clear on that point: We will not fight Russian forces in Ukraine,” Johnson said.

marcelh wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….

This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda?

No agenda, only the inconvenient truth about the GOP. Ask Trump about his agenda with his BFF Putin…..

marcelh wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

marcelh wrote:

They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….

This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda?

No agenda, only the inconvenient truth about the GOP. Ask Trump about his agenda with his BFF Putin…..

tomcat wrote:

When I heard the following statement from Johnson today:

“I want to be crystal clear on that point: We will not fight Russian forces in Ukraine,” Johnson said.

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-01-22/h_68b68872491e6d65e5b3e333795472de

It sounded exactly the opposite to me. Other NATO-countries leaders have issued similar statements over the last few days. It's like they are using Putin's rhetoric.

Besides any form of military intervention, another option that could be explored would be for the allies of Ukraine to (threaten to) recognize selected Russian republics as independent states. Several of these republics still have a majority of non-Russian ethnicity. This would give some more food for thought to Putin.

SteelChair wrote:

marcelh wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda?

No agenda, only the inconvenient truth about the GOP. Ask Trump about his agenda with his BFF Putin…..

That seems pretty easy. Avoid getting drawn into unwinnable foreign wars. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq x2, Afghanistan. It's funny how liberals talk about the military industrial complex fomenting these endless wars in the name of weapon sales/profits.....until Trump is against the wars. Then they become raging hawks. Deranged Trump syndrome. Never mind the fact that he was a Democrat for years. All was well until he challenged the status quo.

ElPistolero wrote:

An Indian national and an Algerian national have been confirmed killed by Russian action in Kharkiv.

“With profound sorrow we confirm that an Indian student lost his life in shelling in Kharkiv this morning. The Ministry is in touch with his family. We convey our deepest condolences to the family," said ministry of external affairs spokesperson Arindam Bagchi.“

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/bengalu ... 923504.cms

“An Algerian student in Ukraine was killed on Saturday after Russia bombarded the city of Kharkiv - the country's second-largest city - the Algerian foreign ministry announced on Sunday.”

https://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/alge ... ng-shelter

DeltaMD90 wrote:

SteelChair wrote:

It is so sad to see Ukranians dying in what is probably a losing fight. I wish them the best and hope they win but it seems impossible to me.

If we had crystal balls and knew Ukraine's resistance would have absolutely NO positive consequences, only death, then sure.

But honestly, what right do you have to tell Ukrainians to just roll over and take it? If they want to surrender that's their choice, if they want to fight and die that's their choice.

Personally, I wouldn't go down without a fight.