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GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:33 pm

From Moscow, as sanctions bite, pointed contribution from the last person interviewed;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9fQjmuPAw

jaro76, if a nation wants to join the EU and/or NATO it should be free to do so. It only bothers Putin since the prospect of nations, once under the thumb of the Warsaw Pact he loved so much, when given the choice to be part of the international community or part of Putin's corrupt, decaying state, where he has become one of the world's richest men, while suppressing free speech, rigging elections, using WMD's TWICE in my own country to kill dissidents who posed no threat other than to his ego, what choice do you think these nations would make?

The Baltic ones subsumed by Stalin, Poland who suffered not only the Nazis but a Soviet invasion since Stalin did with a deal with Hitler, nations that in the Warsaw Pact who if they slightly strayed from the grip of Moscow, got the tanks sent into to them. France left the NATO command structure in 1966, the US did not even impose any economic punishment on them let alone anything else. Because France was a democracy, so they had to respect that and they also knew that democracies, unlike dictatorships, have the capacity to change.

The claim of 'threats' from these new NATO members is absurd, the only nation that has introduced offensive weapons into that part of the world is Russia, with it's Iskander missiles, sited in a deliberately provocative way against these nations.
NATO members only started rotating limited numbers of troops and air policing AFTER Putin annexed Crimea.
Russian bombers increasingly approach, with their transponders off, some of the most congested airspace in the world.
The first major cyber attack? 2007 by Russia on Estonia, that small ex province being the one of the most 'connected' at the time, so another reason for resentment and outright jealousy.

Russia has huge human, scientific and technological potential. What has Putin and his cronies done? Just relied on fossil fuels while outside a couple of major cities, Russia becomes poorer, life expectancy, especially male, slips further.
Putin himself had admitted he hated the fall of the USSR and Warsaw Pact, he like another dictator, has a deluded idea of why it happened. The other deluded dictator blamed his nation's losing WW1 on 'Communists' and 'Jews', not the increasing grip of the Royal Navy's blockade, the last gasp offensive that failed in 1918, then the decisive allied offensive on the fraying German army and fractious, war weary nation.

Sounds very familiar, with Putin's paranoia, his absurd reading of history that is risible.
Long isolated from any reality. As recent footage of him has shown.

Russia did not like small now independent nations to make their own choices? Maybe they would not had Russia anything to offer. Those nations knew full well they did not, quite the opposite.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:47 pm

Very interesting thread about intelligence and surveillance.
Almost sounds surreal when you read it and listen to the audio.
https://twitter.com/sbreakintl/status/1 ... bteBYUv6FQ

Nord Stream 2 Operator files for bankruptcy.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ussia-gas/

Baltic Pipe got new permits after the project was halted by the DEPA last year (link in Polish).
They will resume asap.
https://www.money.pl/gielda/dunczycy-wz ... 0560a.html
 
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Exrampieyyz
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:15 pm

mfranjic wrote:
..
..As for Russia's attack on Ukraine … its a terrible and tragic what we are witnessing, but very difficult and ungrateful to explain in a few words because the causes and consequences need to be considered, and neither of them is from ‘yesterday’. When in the past it was agreed that the Soviet Union would support the unification of West and East Germany, and when the Warsaw Pact was dissolved, it was agreed that NATO would not expand towards Russia's borders. There are dilemmas as to whether this was agreed or not, but it was agreed and exists in the files and the documents. Now there is a short circuit. The question is why it was necessary to force NATO expansion if Russia was not the enemy. Or was it? It is now. They did not even ask for anyone's approval and blessing as NATO normally asks of the United Nations before embarking on its wars of conquest and bloody campaigns, killing innocent civilians.
..
..One only has to look at the map to see how much the West has kept its word that it will not spread. NATO has expanded on five occasions: Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary joined in 1999, Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia and Romania in 2004, Croatia and Albania in 2009, Montenegro in 2017 and Northern Macedonia in 2020. The result is getting closer to Russia's borders and that is the reason for the crisis ...
..
..Let's remember for a moment the tension that prevailed over the Cuban Missile Crisis (Caribbean Crisis) in 1962 between America and the USSR which escalated into an international crisis when American deployments of medium-range ballistic missile (PGM-19 Jupiter) in Italy and Turkey in 1961. was matched by Soviet deployments of similar medium-range ballistic missiles R-12 Dvina / SS-4 Sandal and intermediate-range ballistic missiles R-14 Chusovaya / SS-5 Skean ballistic missile in Cuba, when nuclear war threatened because of that. Yes, America did not invade Cuba, but it did many other countries that were not allowed to choose for themselves but America decided to choose for them instead. Should I list them?
..
..Who knows if the rockets would also come to the Russian border little by little. This should have been resolved earlier, because each of the countries that are in NATO has its own prehistory. In my opinion, the best model for Ukraine was the neutrality that Finland had, and not to force NATO membership. Yes, Ukraine is not in NATO, let alone have missiles aimed at Russia on its territory, but if NATO comes, it is always possible to bring missiles, and one should be aware of that. NATO would certainly not come to Ukraine to plant potatoes and parsley …
..
..What needs to be done now? To sit down and talk. I would like immensely the problems to be solved through the negotiations, but such problems cannot be solved by negotiations alone. The Russian army will have to withdraw because it is not Russia, but this must be resolved by agreement. Putin says the condition is the departure of the current Ukrainian government, but no state can determine for another who will be in someone's state leadership. Clearly this cannot be fulfilled. Putin made a big mistake because he turned almost the whole world against himself, but it is easiest to condemn and remains to be seen what led to this situation. We all condemn any aggression. This will be condemned by any normal man. But we have to get into the question what led to that!
..
..NATO had its role while the opponent was the Soviet Union and The Warsaw Treaty Organization, commonly known as the Warsaw Pact, and while there were ideological disputes. However, there is no more USSR for a 30 years, nor is there any danger from it, and a different NATO policy should have been pursued, unless the alliance appears to embody the Western will to limit the growth of two superpowers: Russia and China. After all, U.S. interests are behind everything because NATO does not have its own strength.
..
..When Bill Clinton was visiting Moscow on his last tour as U.S. president (3-5. June 2000; summit meeting with president Putin) he was asked what he thinks of the idea of Russia joining NATO, how they view this possibility to maintain security between the West and the East, why they don’t want Russia as friends and why they see enemies in Russia. The only answer he gave was that it is not up to NATO political regime, but that they simply do not need a country as big as Russia. The fact is that the tradition of American politics is they always need someone to fight with and Russia is always a very welcomed enemy.
..
..U.S. is deeply engaged in the current crisis, not as a defender of the West and democracy, but as a country that is almost desperate to preserve or restore the position of world hegemon, a superpower unparalleled and which decides what the world we live in will be like. It is superfluous to talk about other American interests about Europe. They do not want to accept that Europe has two masters, them and Russia. To their great regret, now they can only watch what Russia and China are doing. Or what they will do ...
..
..Since 1775. and the beginning of the American Revolutionary War, the United States has participated in 102 wars. You can count the American presidents, those who did not start at least one war during their mandate, on the fingers of one hand. The total number of foreign sites for installations and facilities that are either in active use and service or may be activated and operated by American military personnel and allies is at just over 1000 (one thousand)…
..
..My opinion is that the deep American state, its poor maidservant Europe and the heavily manipulated and exploited Ukrainian president Zelenskyy, who promised to end Ukraine's protracted conflict with Russia as part of his presidential campaign and attempted to engage in dialogue with Russian President Vladimir Putin, pushed Ukraine into the mouths of an awakened, enraged and mad bear. However, Ukraine is now alone and betrayed. The others, whatever they say or do, are still on the sidelines and just watching.
..
..I am not inclined to any of these political leaders that we are currently watching and listening to, no matter where they belong, or that I could trust any of them. More than anything, I pray for the peace in the world and to put an end to the suffering of all those involved in this war as soon as possible..
..
..As a little boy, I was so proud when my grandmother was showing me a picture of our family member Stephen Franjic, who was a U.S. Army tanker in the Korean War (died on 18. Jan 2015, at age 85, in Tampa, FL). Then I understood and knew little… A lot is clearer to me today, but it doesn’t help me too much not to be confused, depressing and unhappy when I see what this world looks like. Someone will surely benefit greatly from all this and are now happily rubbing their hands to the side. As with all the wars they stood behind and deliberately organized throughout the history. But, the God's judgment is the last. No one will escape.
..
..
….Mario, 54. Two armies, one war and 229 voluntary blood donations

No one forced any of those countries to join NATO.
No country has the right to tell another what to do.
The difference between a free country and a dictatorship.
Nato never attacked anyone . Russia went into those countries. Probably why they joined Nato. Russia didn't have to invade Ukrainia. Just putin's paranoia.
If there is a God, I think He'll know how to judge putin.
Good luck Ukrainians.
Last edited by Exrampieyyz on Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:22 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Tonight, Tuesday, March 1st, US President Biden will be giving the annual 'State of the Union' [SOTU] speech to a live assembly of Congress (both the House and Senate), and to a world wide audience. For sure the most important part of it will be as to the USA's policies as to the invasion of Russia into Ukraine. I have started a new thread on the SOTU 2022 for discussion of it as goes beyond issues of Ukraine.

The world will be watching what the members of the GOP will do: support the President without any hesitation or not….


Haven't they been doing that so far?

They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:30 pm

To reiterate some points from my previous post, with a focus on the big lie of Putin about Ukraine,by someone more qualified!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ia-ukraine
 
SteelChair
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:33 pm

There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II
Last edited by SteelChair on Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
889091
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:33 pm

PixelPilot wrote:

Starlink terminals delivery to Ukraine. Pretty cool how the VP of Ukraine just says "Thanks" and Elon replies "You're very welcome". I bet Pudding is losing hair just reading interactions like this.
https://twitter.com/FedorovMykhailo/sta ... 9ZI3LEAurQ


...isn't there a Falcon Heavy scheduled for launch in the next few hours that will suffer a Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly event, falling back to earth exactly where the Russian convoy is? .....
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:35 pm

SteelChair wrote:
There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II



What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II



What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.


Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:44 pm

Former Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev has called on Russian diplomats to resign in protest of the war in Ukraine.

"I urge all Russian diplomats to resign in protest," he wrote on Twitter on Tuesday.

"Dear Russian diplomats, you are professionals and not free propagandists. "When I worked at the Foreign Ministry, I was proud of my colleagues," Kozyrev added. "Now it is simply impossible to support the bloody fratricidal war in Ukraine," the former minister wrote, rtv21.tv reports.

Kozyrev was foreign minister from 1991 to 1996 when Boris Yeltsin was president


https://en.rtv21.tv/ish-ministri-rus-u- ... oreheqjen/
 
SteelChair
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:50 pm

marcelh wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
The world will be watching what the members of the GOP will do: support the President without any hesitation or not….


Haven't they been doing that so far?

They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….


Throwing Europe under the bus? Is that why he tried to shame them into paying their fair share of NATO? Is that why he tried to expose the corruption in dealing with US support to Ukraine that just happened to ensnare Hunter?
 
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Exrampieyyz
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:53 pm

SteelChair wrote:
casinterest wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II



What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.


Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me

Time will liberate them? What about Crimea? Nothing happened. What about Georgia? The west does nothing unless threatened. The Ukranians seem to really hate to be under Russia's thumb so will not give up and surrender.
In a perfect world one would hope the west could throw out an invader after a surrender. Put this is far from a perfect world and strength is the only solution to mad dictators.
Terrible that lives are lost. But that seems to be the price that must be paid.
Must find a way to knock off these mad men before they get control
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:56 pm

masonh2479 wrote:
...I am quite surprised Finland and Sweden haven’t quick thrown in an application to NATO. Sure Finland has kicked Russian/Soviet ass before but I would think NATO would be a top priority for the attack on one attack on all clause.


One thing that has become extremely clear is that NATO will not intervene if you are attacked by Russia and not in NATO. So what is Finland's strategy if Russia attacks?
 
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argentinevol98
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:11 pm

SteelChair wrote:
casinterest wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II



What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.


Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me


The last time around they had to wait 71 years. 71 years in which they faced many times brutality as bad or worse than this current conflict. It appears that most Ukrainians would rather die fighting for their country than suffer another Holodomor.
 
jordanh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:18 pm

SteelChair wrote:
There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II


Are you starting a "Let's-Give-Neville-Chamberlain-Another-Whack-at-It" Club?
 
SteelChair
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:37 pm

jordanh wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II


Are you starting a "Let's-Give-Neville-Chamberlain-Another-Whack-at-It" Club?


Well Colonel Vindman and all the other "experts" in the swamp have done such a good job so far let's just keep letting the same people continue down the same path with the same strategy and expect a different result

Alternatively we could send tens of thousands of our soldiers and hundreds of billions of our dollars to fight in Ukraine but my guess is you're not going to volunteer to do that nor have any of your family members do that. And that's worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan not to mention Vietnam why don't we just continue down that strategy on the border of Russia? My guess is we're not going to do that strategy so what's left?Negotiate and wait
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:37 pm

If anyone needs a reminder of what the Russians intended to do with Ukraine, see this web archived piece and have Google Translate go over it:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051 ... 62336.html

This was a propaganda piece that was put up on Feb 26th, and appears to be a prescheduled article celebrating the annexation of Ukraine. This got quickly deleted from RIA because the war didn't go as planned, but the internet still remembers.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:47 pm

People bringing Trump into this seem to forget that bad people can be right and good people can be wrong.
Sometimes you need to listen what people say and disregard who is talking.

BUT...
Think about it as you want but In my opinion he helped build the global anti-russia climate like none before him. False or true doesn't actually matter.
I'm almost grateful for him otherwise Ukraine would be left there alone.
It can bring happiness to some that if he had any investments in Russia, well they are now gone lol and if he didn't then good for him I guess.
Last edited by PixelPilot on Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:50 pm

SteelChair wrote:
casinterest wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
There is no way Ukraine wins this conflict. By continuing all they are doing is condemning hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent people to untimely death they should surrender as soon as possible and play the long game. Their model should be France in World War II



What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.


Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me



You want them to surrender to a madman that is intent on bringing the bad ol days(USSR) back?
I think you don't value anything associated with Freedom.

The Ukrainians are fighting for what their parents,grandparents, and Great Grandparents endured.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:52 pm

The Kremlin adviser says he is embarrassed and depressed about the war

Andrei Kortunov, the director general of Russia's Foreign Ministry, said he had long believed that a military operation was unlikely, according to Sky News, which described him as a Kremlin adviser.

- I think it is very embarrassing for us, not only because it turned out that we were wrong, but also because it puts all Russians in a difficult position.

- Many of us are depressed, I think people in the Kremlin should be depressed, he says.

His views have been ignored by the Kremlin, which has chosen to invade Russia, he said.

President Vladimir Putin is now surrounded by only an inner core of advisers, made up mostly of military, security and intelligence leaders, who have been driving forces for war.


https://direkte.vg.no/nyhetsdognet/news ... hetsdognet
 
NIKV69
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:58 pm

marcelh wrote:
They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….


This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda? :sarcastic:
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:01 pm

In the last 24 hours, Russia has been accused of using cluster munitions against, among other things, a kindergarten and a hospital in Ukraine.

The Norwegian intelligence service (E-service) now confirms that the weapons are used in Ukraine.


https://www.aftenposten.no/verden/i/0Gl ... -i-ukraina
 
petertenthije
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:05 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….


This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda? :sarcastic:

You mean the republicans? They want the white house, the senate and congress. To that end they will accept help from anyone that can accomplish that. This hunger for power has made it possible for the russians to play part of them like a fiddle. They don’t even see it.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:08 pm

Apple halts sales in Russia at this time.
https://www.macrumors.com/2022/03/01/ap ... in-russia/
Last edited by PixelPilot on Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:08 pm

Big news from Apple

https://news.sky.com/story/apple-stops- ... e-12555128

Apple stops all product sales in Russia as RT and Sputnik removed from App Store
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:13 pm

The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
The article is no longer available, but was saved by web.archive.com

It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins ideological reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Google translate gives this translation

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.
Last edited by Dahlgardo on Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
PixelPilot
Posts: 966
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:19 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Google translate gives this translation

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.


Good luck?
You just did the opposite and EU has never been this strong and united.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4517
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:25 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Google translate gives this translation

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.

It doesn’t feel far from this to:

https://youtu.be/eyX5VWzeKPM

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
victrola
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:28 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Google translate gives this translation

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.
le
An excellent post. Very chilling. I'm sure in the future, when people look at Russian history, the "tragedy" of 1991 will pale in comparison to the tragedy of 2022.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:33 pm

casinterest wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
casinterest wrote:


What? And wait for the Allies to liberate them?

I think you underestimate the values of freedom and Democracy.


Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me



You want them to surrender to a madman that is intent on bringing the bad ol days(USSR) back?
I think you don't value anything associated with Freedom.

The Ukrainians are fighting for what their parents,grandparents, and Great Grandparents endured.


Another example of cognitive dissonance. I will volunteer that I am a second amendment supporter. I believe that people have a right to protect themselves and their personal property. And I believe in personal property.

Many people who talk about freedom talk about drug legalization and free tuition. Those aren't my definitions.

It is so sad to see Ukranians dying in what is probably a losing fight. I wish them the best and hope they win but it seems impossible to me.
 
User avatar
PixelPilot
Posts: 966
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:46 pm

SteelChair wrote:
casinterest wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me



You want them to surrender to a madman that is intent on bringing the bad ol days(USSR) back?
I think you don't value anything associated with Freedom.

The Ukrainians are fighting for what their parents,grandparents, and Great Grandparents endured.


Another example of cognitive dissonance. I will volunteer that I am a second amendment supporter. I believe that people have a right to protect themselves and their personal property. And I believe in personal property.

Many people who talk about freedom talk about drug legalization and free tuition. Those aren't my definitions.

It is so sad to see Ukranians dying in what is probably a losing fight. I wish them the best and hope they win but it seems impossible to me.


You really don't understand the alternative.
Obviously you weren't born and raised in communism (I'm guess here, sorry if wrong) but believe it or not they act like this for a reason.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:50 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
The article is no longer available, but was saved by web.archive.com

It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins ideological reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Yeah, reads like a heavy overdose of getting high on their own supply of wishful thinking!

It has not aged well through just the past few days...!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:51 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
The Russian state media RIA apparently prematurely published an editors piece on feb 26 celebrating the Russian victory in Ukraine.
It's a really interesting read, as it outlines Putins reasoning for the war (presumably in his own words handed over to the editor).

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

Google translate gives this translation

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era in three dimensions. And of course, in the fourth, domestic Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system – but this should be discussed separately a little later.
Russia restores its unity – the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe of our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a high price, yes, through the tragic events of the actual civil war, because now brothers are still shooting at each other, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies – but Ukraine as there will be no more anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness by gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together – in all its totality of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, we would not only have betrayed the memory of our ancestors, but we would have been cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin took upon himself, without a drop of exaggeration, historical responsibility, deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia – for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of an anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the pressure of the West on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, a complex of national humiliation – when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then had to accept the existence of two states of not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Rus", or to impotently gnash their teeth, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine". To return Ukraine, that is, to turn it back to Russia, with each decade would be more and more difficult – recoding, de-Russification of Russians and turning against Russian Little Russians-Ukrainians, would gain momentum. And if the full geopolitical and military control of the West over Ukraine is consolidated, its return to Russia would become completely impossible – it would have to fight for it with the Atlantic bloc.

Now this problem does not exist – Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be restructured, re-established and returned to its natural state part of the Russian world. Within what borders, in what form the union with Russia will be fixed (through CSTO and Eurasian Union or Union State Russia and Belarus)? This will be decided after the end is put to the history of Ukraine as an anti-Russia. In any case, the period of split of the Russian people is coming to an end.
And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era – it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting geopolitically as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage – the West sees Russia's return to its historical borders in Europe. And he loudly resents this, although deep down he must admit to himself that it could not have been otherwise.

Is there anyone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin, seriously believed that Moscow will refuse Kiev? That Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time, when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control over European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only through unification Germany, which happened by Russian good (albeit not very clever) will. To swing after that also on Russian lands is the height not even of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe individually, did not have the strength to keep in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. Not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.
More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it didn't work should have been clear twenty years ago. And fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even a deaf person could hear that Russia was returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of Western space to the east. In seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this is no longer the case – the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. The losses from the escalation of confrontation will be on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation carries huge costs – and the main ones are not economic at all.
Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy – the German project of European integration makes no strategic sense while maintaining Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. And it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But obtaining autonomy is necessary for Europe and for another reason – in case the States move to self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, in which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives Europeans of even a chance of independence – not to mention the fact that in the same way they are trying to impose a break with Europe. China. If now the Atlanticists rejoice that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then Berlin and Paris cannot but understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new Iron Curtain on their eastern borders – realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (or rather half a millennium) of global leadership is over anyway – but various options for its future are still possible.
Because the construction of a new world order – and this is the third dimension of current events – is accelerating, and its contours are becoming more and more clearly visible through the sprawling veil of Anglo-Saxon globalization. The multipolar world has finally become a reality – the operation in Ukraine is not able to rally anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world perfectly sees and understands that this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India, Latin America and Africa, the islamic world and Southeast Asia No one believes that the West rules the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not just challenged the West – it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, of course, together with the West (united or not) – but not on its terms and not according to its rules.


Good luck?
You just did the opposite and EU has never been this strong and united.

Or NATO. Or pretty much the rest of the world...
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 9079
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:52 pm

SteelChair wrote:
casinterest wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Time will liberate them. The corruption of Russia will eventually bring it down and cause reform. To waste thousands of lives on a senseless fight that you're going to lose anyway doesn't seem to be a good strategy to me



You want them to surrender to a madman that is intent on bringing the bad ol days(USSR) back?
I think you don't value anything associated with Freedom.

The Ukrainians are fighting for what their parents,grandparents, and Great Grandparents endured.


Another example of cognitive dissonance. I will volunteer that I am a second amendment supporter. I believe that people have a right to protect themselves and their personal property. And I believe in personal property.

Many people who talk about freedom talk about drug legalization and free tuition. Those aren't my definitions.

It is so sad to see Ukranians dying in what is probably a losing fight. I wish them the best and hope they win but it seems impossible to me.

If we had crystal balls and knew Ukraine's resistance would have absolutely NO positive consequences, only death, then sure.

But honestly, what right do you have to tell Ukrainians to just roll over and take it? If they want to surrender that's their choice, if they want to fight and die that's their choice.

Personally, I wouldn't go down without a fight.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1919
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:52 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….


This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda? :sarcastic:


No agenda, only the inconvenient truth about the GOP. Ask Trump about his agenda with his BFF Putin…..
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:55 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Another example of cognitive dissonance. I will volunteer that I am a second amendment supporter. I believe that people have a right to protect themselves and their personal property. And I believe in personal property.

Many people who talk about freedom talk about drug legalization and free tuition. Those aren't my definitions.

It is so sad to see Ukranians dying in what is probably a losing fight. I wish them the best and hope they win but it seems impossible to me.

Yes, you're giving a perfect example of cognitive dissonance between what you profess to support and the pitiful conclusions you're drawing from that.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:09 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Very interesting thread about intelligence and surveillance.
Almost sounds surreal when you read it and listen to the audio.
https://twitter.com/sbreakintl/status/1 ... bteBYUv6FQ

If these reports are factual, there are basically two alternative explanations:

1. The corruption and ineptitude within the russian army is so endemic that they are simply unable to stage a competent invasion any more (not that I'd shed a tear about that!). That they're apparently sending un-briefed conscripts with rations expired since 2015(!) according to one tweet would be baffling for an army in really good shape.

2. The invasion was sabotaged from the top, with the frustrated top brass unable to dissuade an obsessed Vladimir Putin from embarking on this harebrained adventure and deliberately setting it up to fail by not putting any competent planning into it, hoping for the inevitable disaster to take Putin down with it (preferably before he'd get around to murdering them).

Nord Stream 2 Operator files for bankruptcy.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ussia-gas/

Couldn't have happened to a nicer project specifically designed to undermine a whole number of other countries!
 
GDB
Posts: 15139
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:12 pm

You may have seen non Ukrainians wanting to fight, one from the UK posted upthread had some with no military experience, I thought while their hearts are in the right place, they might just get in the way, unless perhaps they confined themselves to helping at the border.
However, this former soldier is going, he has the skills and appears to be aware of the risks;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6_Azyen5cE
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3936
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:13 pm

I was hoping this wasn't true when it first surfaced but CNN picked it up. Accusations of racism in the fog of war.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/28/europe/s ... index.html
"
As the Russian invasion of Ukraine continues, foreign students attempting to leave the country say they are experiencing racist treatment by Ukrainian security forces and border officials.

One African medical student told CNN that she and other foreigners were ordered off the public transit bus at a checkpoint between Ukraine and Poland border.
They were told to stand aside as the bus drove off with only Ukrainian nationals on board, she says.
Rachel Onyegbule, a Nigerian first-year medical student in Lviv was left stranded at the border town of Shehyni, some 400 miles from Ukraine's capital, Kyiv.
 
cpd
Posts: 7225
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:13 pm

Klaus wrote:
1. The corruption and ineptitude within the russian army is so endemic that they are simply unable to stage a competent invasion any more (not that I'd shed a tear about that!). That they're apparently sending un-briefed conscripts with rations expired since 2015(!) according to one tweet would be baffling for an army in really good shape.

2. The invasion was sabotaged from the top, with the frustrated top brass unable to dissuade an obsessed Vladimir Putin from embarking on this harebrained adventure and deliberately setting it up to fail by not putting any competent planning into it, hoping for the inevitable disaster to take Putin down with it (preferably before he'd get around to murdering them).

Nord Stream 2 Operator files for bankruptcy.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ussia-gas/

Couldn't have happened to a nicer project specifically designed to undermine a whole number of other countries!


If the conscripts are stuck on expired rations, that's a disgrace. I know things are pretty bad - but that's terrible. If they have low morale then I wouldn't blame them if what you are saying is correct.

Putin needs to be stopped not only for the sake of Ukraine but for the good of his own people.
 
tomcat
Posts: 1015
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:22 pm

art wrote:
masonh2479 wrote:
...I am quite surprised Finland and Sweden haven’t quick thrown in an application to NATO. Sure Finland has kicked Russian/Soviet ass before but I would think NATO would be a top priority for the attack on one attack on all clause.


One thing that has become extremely clear is that NATO will not intervene if you are attacked by Russia and not in NATO. So what is Finland's strategy if Russia attacks?


I'm still not convinced that NATO will not intervene. I realize there is the nuclear threat but now that Putin has been more explicit about using its nuclear forces, we'll live under this permanent threat even if we don't move for Ukraine. As far as I am concerned, I'm not opposed to the use of force to terminate this threat. If it takes a nuclear war to get rid of the nuclear inventory, so be it.

What has crossed my mind is that if NATO was not in a position to react immediately to the invasion of Ukraine, now that the Article 4 has been triggered by several member states, NATO has initiated a significant build up of forces (including F-35 aircraft) from Estonia all the way to Bulgaria. Granted, these forces are deployed for deterrence and defense only but who knows at what point the build up will stop. In parallel, the supply of arms to Ukraine helps to slow down and erode the Russian forces in the area. So we might reach a point where the balance of forces assembled in the region would be clearly in favor of NATO giving military options which are not available at the moment. An option could be to hit Belarus first, not attacking the Russian army directly.

When I heard the following statement from Johnson today:
“I want to be crystal clear on that point: We will not fight Russian forces in Ukraine,” Johnson said.

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-01-22/h_68b68872491e6d65e5b3e333795472de

It sounded exactly the opposite to me. Other NATO-countries leaders have issued similar statements over the last few days. It's like they are using Putin's rhetoric.

Besides any form of military intervention, another option that could be explored would be for the allies of Ukraine to (threaten to) recognize selected Russian republics as independent states. Several of these republics still have a majority of non-Russian ethnicity. This would give some more food for thought to Putin.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:25 pm

marcelh wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….


This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda? :sarcastic:


No agenda, only the inconvenient truth about the GOP. Ask Trump about his agenda with his BFF Putin…..


That seems pretty easy. Avoid getting drawn into unwinnable foreign wars. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq x2, Afghanistan. It's funny how liberals talk about the military industrial complex fomenting these endless wars in the name of weapon sales/profits.....until Trump is against the wars. Then they become raging hawks. Deranged Trump syndrome. Never mind the fact that he was a Democrat for years. All was well until he challenged the status quo.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 15030
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:29 pm

marcelh wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
They also supported Trump who is a Putin admirer.
From an European point of view, I consider at least a part of the Republicans as a Russian Troyan horse, throwing Europe under a Russian bus if it suits their agenda….


This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda? :sarcastic:


No agenda, only the inconvenient truth about the GOP. Ask Trump about his agenda with his BFF Putin…..


So you say "their agenda" then say "No agenda" I get it. More hyperbole and smoke.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:42 pm

tomcat wrote:
When I heard the following statement from Johnson today:
“I want to be crystal clear on that point: We will not fight Russian forces in Ukraine,” Johnson said.

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-01-22/h_68b68872491e6d65e5b3e333795472de

It sounded exactly the opposite to me. Other NATO-countries leaders have issued similar statements over the last few days. It's like they are using Putin's rhetoric.

Well, Boris Johnson is a proven compulsive liar, so... :liar:

Besides any form of military intervention, another option that could be explored would be for the allies of Ukraine to (threaten to) recognize selected Russian republics as independent states. Several of these republics still have a majority of non-Russian ethnicity. This would give some more food for thought to Putin.

That would indeed be a declaration of war, similar to Putin's when he recognized the Donbass regions in Ukraine. So NATO countries won't do that for sure!

But as we've seen in recent days european countries and NATO have still significantly expanded on the options they're considering under the circumstances.

Putin's problem is that now he's started to rock the boat to the point of toppling the stability of the entire continent pretty much all of the continent agrees that getting rid of him specifically looks like the only viable path out of this mess, with likely more and more of his own compatriots joining in on that opinion as the sanctions will start to bite in earnest.

He and Lawrow have scorched such enormous swathes of ground and destroyed even just the most basic levels of trust with other countries (even with his adversaries!) that it is more and more inconceivable to even bother rebuilding relationships with Russia as long as he is raging in the Kremlin while Russia crumbles under the sanctions.
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:44 pm

 
889091
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:46 pm

When was the last time something like this happened?

Everyone (well, apart from the Russian envoy) cleared the room when he (Lavrov) appeared on screen....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViaBYRnWHFM
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:48 pm

SteelChair wrote:
marcelh wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

This post makes absolutely no sense what is their agenda? :sarcastic:


No agenda, only the inconvenient truth about the GOP. Ask Trump about his agenda with his BFF Putin…..


That seems pretty easy. Avoid getting drawn into unwinnable foreign wars. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq x2, Afghanistan. It's funny how liberals talk about the military industrial complex fomenting these endless wars in the name of weapon sales/profits.....until Trump is against the wars. Then they become raging hawks. Deranged Trump syndrome. Never mind the fact that he was a Democrat for years. All was well until he challenged the status quo.

The "second amendment" fanatics have been bought out wholesale by Putin – see the NRA willingly and with open eyes jumping into bed with him, and Trump for all we know having been bought with russian money covering his mounting and increasingly worsening debt it was a match made in hell.

That lot has been fanaticized by inane propaganda to the point that they'd willingly sell out their country to the enemy just as long as they can bury the more and more clearly emerging liberal majority under all the rubble, too.

It's hatred for hatred's sake with no redeeming qualities or ideals left – an ideal mark for the determined foreign tyrant.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2667
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:00 pm

An Indian national and an Algerian national have been confirmed killed by Russian action in Kharkiv.

“With profound sorrow we confirm that an Indian student lost his life in shelling in Kharkiv this morning. The Ministry is in touch with his family. We convey our deepest condolences to the family," said ministry of external affairs spokesperson Arindam Bagchi.“

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/bengalu ... 923504.cms

“An Algerian student in Ukraine was killed on Saturday after Russia bombarded the city of Kharkiv - the country's second-largest city - the Algerian foreign ministry announced on Sunday.”

https://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/alge ... ng-shelter
 
889091
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:12 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
An Indian national and an Algerian national have been confirmed killed by Russian action in Kharkiv.

“With profound sorrow we confirm that an Indian student lost his life in shelling in Kharkiv this morning. The Ministry is in touch with his family. We convey our deepest condolences to the family," said ministry of external affairs spokesperson Arindam Bagchi.“

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/bengalu ... 923504.cms

“An Algerian student in Ukraine was killed on Saturday after Russia bombarded the city of Kharkiv - the country's second-largest city - the Algerian foreign ministry announced on Sunday.”

https://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/alge ... ng-shelter


What were the embassies/consulates of India and Algeria advising their citizens in Ukraine to do before the invasion? The warning signs were there for quite some time.

What about their diplomatic staff? Were they officially repatriated, and if so, couldn't their own citizens in Ukraine have tagged along?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 3098
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:13 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

It is so sad to see Ukranians dying in what is probably a losing fight. I wish them the best and hope they win but it seems impossible to me.

If we had crystal balls and knew Ukraine's resistance would have absolutely NO positive consequences, only death, then sure.

But honestly, what right do you have to tell Ukrainians to just roll over and take it? If they want to surrender that's their choice, if they want to fight and die that's their choice.

Personally, I wouldn't go down without a fight.


He is factually correct. Things just keep getting worse for Ukraine and there is almost no possibility of repelling the Russians at this point. As well, exactly who has come to their aid WRT Crimea, and their staunchly pro-Russian breakaways in the east? This is has been going on for more than 8 years now, and the only thing Ukraine's allies are willing to send amount to Thoughts and Prayers.

There is also the fabulous misunderstanding of how Putin, and by extension Russia, work on these matters. You cannot shame these people into doing the "right thing." The folks running the show their care absolutely nothing for our social media slacktivism. Or even sanctions. Nee, the latter will eventually entrench Russians against the West. With Russia having plenty of markets left in China & India, they will be able to get by in a way that satisfies the dictatorship. Now matter what happens now, this is the next twenty years.



Having that been said...

I also agree that no one here can tell Ukrainians what to do. It may very well be better to fight and die here and now then live to endure an occupation that probably will not differ from Nazi times in function. Life under an occupation is a good enough excuse to fight anything. These people are not stupid and —ironically thanks enough to Russia's own propaganda machine— know exactly what to expect, having seen the recent horrors America brought to Iraq.

I think this is hopeless, and that Russia will let this get violent to level we have not recently seen in Europe. But I still do not see that there is "another day" for these people to live to fight either.
I cannot imagine what it would be like to make these decisions on a personal level.

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