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GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:44 am

Jetsgo wrote:
Ukraine Forces Reportedly Kill Russia General Andrei Sukhovetsky

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-sukhovetsky-conflict-1684441


More on this, while not totally confirmed there does not seem to be denials either, multiple sources with information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxgy_FfGUnY
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:50 am

T4thH wrote:
Truck with ambulance markings have been misused by Russian troops for transport of 122 mm shells.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1499361168590258178



There's another one for the war crimes crew. Horrible.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:51 am

Largest nuclear plant in Europe under attack.
Live stream here. This is insane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYUT36YGOh8
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:07 am

PixelPilot wrote:
Largest nuclear plant in Europe under attack.
Live stream here. This is insane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYUT36YGOh8


Apparently fire crews were denied entry. WTF are they doing?
 
boyindra
Posts: 8
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:10 am

tommy1808 wrote:
T4thH wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Germany was militarily reduced, not demilitarized, and the allies watched Germany rearm. That was the mistake.

So.. since we now have established that your wishful "make sure this will not repeat" isn´t an option, what now?

best regards
Thomas


Sorry, but I deny a "demilitarization" of a country. Every country has the right to have an army, and even only for self defense. When this sillly man on the top is replaced; and perhaps Russia back on a better way for Kleptocracy to something reliable, I do not see a reason, for it.
And perhaps, we will all find a possibility, for the need of a only basic army, as German, I prefer peace...

I am old enough, I am still aware of the Cold war and the permanent "background" live in fear of everyone, even I was only a child. As German, I am still well aware of the stories of WWII of my grandparents, aunt....the stories of the displacement form the east, the story of my grandmother and aunt, who got places on the Wilhelm Gustloff, and pushed back from the ramp to the ship and transferred to one of the last trains on the way out. ,Everyone was happy to get on the Wilhelm Gustloff, no one wanted to leave on train. Their train got through. Two trains behind, back part was shot in flames, reached the save area half burning and the third...the Russian tanks were already parked on the railway tracks and the train was shot in pieces....

And we all know the story of the Wilhelm Gustloff, correct?


The tasking from jaro76 is making sure that it doesn´t repeat, and there are only 3 options:

1: Russia not having a military to speak of. I agree that is nonsensical, but that would make sure they won´t, because they can´t.
2. Regime change and transition into a stable democracy. So 20 years or so to take hold and yield returns.Not a solution for right after Ukraine
3. Russias Invasion into Ukraine fails so miserably that they now trying again only means more kicks into the balls.

Since 1 & 2 are either not practical or not anything that works in the short term, no. 3 is the only viable option to prevent "happening again".

best regards
Thomas


to go no 3, i think Ukrain need a hand from NATO. Cannot only send weapon then expect ukrain to kick russian out. question is..are you ready to deploy NATO force directly there and WW3?

Thanks
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:18 am

Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Largest nuclear plant in Europe under attack.
Live stream here. This is insane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYUT36YGOh8


Apparently fire crews were denied entry. WTF are they doing?


They don't care anymore if there was ever any doubt.


On another note:
Airline software giant ends distribution service with Russia’s Aeroflot, crippling carrier’s ability to sell seats
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/airline ... 9CM0K2gCfk
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:20 am

Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Largest nuclear plant in Europe under attack.
Live stream here. This is insane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYUT36YGOh8


Apparently fire crews were denied entry. WTF are they doing?


According twitter, the firefighter shall have been even shelled during the firefighting. When there is a reliable source/confirmation, then there is again another level of stupidity on Russian site reached.
https://twitter.com/Caucasuswar/status/1499551830573035523?cxt=HHwWhsC9-bycvc8pAAAA
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:23 am

PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Largest nuclear plant in Europe under attack.
Live stream here. This is insane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYUT36YGOh8


Apparently fire crews were denied entry. WTF are they doing?


They don't care anymore if there was ever any doubt.


On another note:
Airline software giant ends distribution service with Russia’s Aeroflot, crippling carrier’s ability to sell seats
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/airline ... 9CM0K2gCfk


Or it’s part of some strategy to drive the civilian population out. Makes securing and holding resources easier long-term.
 
boyindra
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:24 am

ltbewr wrote:
One concern I have as to the massive sanctions and related actions is the world price for oil with terrible affects on the world's economy. No one wants to purchase or ships pick up Russian oil due to the sanctions, not wanting to show any support for Russia and war risks. Gasoline and diesel prices in the USA have gone up $ 0.60/gallon in just a month, and likely another $.50-60 cents in the next weeks. Already gas prices in my home state of NJ have gone to over $ 4.00/gallon, in California to over $6.00/gallon. For sure in but for a few oil rich petrostates, similar increases are occurring. These higher energy prices will also mean much higher prices for everything else around the world. In the USA, this will destroy what little support the Biden Administration has and likely this fall massive losses of the Democrats on all levels of government. I am also quite sure all around the world it will likely mean demands to backing off the sanctions by politicians corporate interests for their domestic political survival and to prevent massive economic crises. People may want to support the Ukrainians, but sadly when their costs of living go up so much many will say let Russia take it over and give me back lower gasoline prices.



be prepared... there is high possibility US inflation will stay above 7% if this war is continue...
here is latest trend in US inflation : https://www.statista.com/statistics/273 ... in-the-us/
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:32 am

Aaron747 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Apparently fire crews were denied entry. WTF are they doing?


They don't care anymore if there was ever any doubt.


On another note:
Airline software giant ends distribution service with Russia’s Aeroflot, crippling carrier’s ability to sell seats
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/airline ... 9CM0K2gCfk


Or it’s part of some strategy to drive the civilian population out. Makes securing and holding resources easier long-term.


According to Twitter firefighters were allowed to proceed.
https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1499 ... 5nxKt4ireA
 
Derico
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:36 am

I think that regardless of the outcome here, almost all sanctions should remain in place post-conflict so long as there persist a Russian occupation of any areas of Ukraine (including the Crimean region), and Georgia. He should understand that now there has been a "retro-active" reset of posture by the international community and that any areas he has seized during his time in power are no longer recognized "de facto" and not just "de jure".
 
Cardude2
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:45 am

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Slightly off topic maybe but still.....

Don't know the real origin of this but it was posted by Pascal Heyman in 2019. "The journalist’s guide to tank identification"

Image


they forgot the 240 :lol:
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_200_Series
 
drew777
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:48 am

I suspect when this is all over, there will be a lot of people asking why NATO didn't respond sooner. Today it's shelling at the nuclear plant tomorrow it'll be something worse. Will use of a tactical nuke in Ukraine draw in foreign forces?
 
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alberchico
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:48 am

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... plant.html

Considering that the winds could easily blow radioactive material back into the Russia you have to wonder what the hell are they doing ???
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:53 am

alberchico wrote:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10575179/Russian-troops-fire-Ukrainian-civilians-protecting-Europes-largest-nuclear-plant.html

Considering that the winds could easily blow radioactive material back into the Russia you have to wonder what the hell are they doing ???


Making use of a "dirty bomb" without actually using one.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:26 am

RT-America lays off staff and stops production. Better late than never.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/media/rt ... index.html


'Ban it': Bipartisan lawmakers call on Biden administration to end Russian oil imports
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/politics ... index.html

Elon Musk:
Updating software to reduce peak power consumption, so Starlink can be powered from car cigarette lighter.
Mobile roaming enabled, so phased array antenna can maintain signal while on moving vehicle.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/149 ... mjpllJ01iQ
 
B717fan
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:09 am

Appearently it was a training facility just off the plant's perimeter that was struck and on fire.
https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status ... gr%5Etweet
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:22 am

Discuss the topic, not other users. If a post violates forum rules, please report it. If you have questions, please e-mail [email protected]

We do not enjoy deleting a post and every post that quotes the post that violated forum rules. Much easier to use the reporting function and we take care of it early. Much appreciated.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:30 am

https://twitter.com/KaiFund/status/1499576802075111424

U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham calls for President Putin's assassination :rotfl:
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:35 am

casinterest wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Truck with ambulance markings have been misused by Russian troops for transport of 122 mm shells.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1499361168590258178



There's another one for the war crimes crew. Horrible.

I am in utter shock and horror they would do such a thing. The medical corps is kept in a different organization than the fighting troops for a reason; to prevent such blatant misconduct.

For if this keeps up, ambulances become valid targets. :cry2: No no no. Does Russia really want that kind of war? Seriously, that would make Afghanistan look kind.

I know Russia withdrew recognition of the Geneva convention, but this is... ugh:
https://www.stalkerzone.org/russia-with ... conflicts/

Lightsaber
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:35 am

Wow! The whole of Europe could be in trouble with this nuclear issue. Let's hope it is contained!
Last edited by Pi7472000 on Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:37 am

alberchico wrote:
https://twitter.com/KaiFund/status/1499576802075111424

U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham calls for President Putin's assassination :rotfl:


He's not the brightest spark now is he. Lots of us want this, but a US politician saying it publicly can't be a good thing.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 3:56 am

lightsaber wrote:
casinterest wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Truck with ambulance markings have been misused by Russian troops for transport of 122 mm shells.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1499361168590258178



There's another one for the war crimes crew. Horrible.

I am in utter shock and horror they would do such a thing. The medical corps is kept in a different organization than the fighting troops for a reason; to prevent such blatant misconduct.

For if this keeps up, ambulances become valid targets. :cry2: No no no. Does Russia really want that kind of war? Seriously, that would make Afghanistan look kind.

I know Russia withdrew recognition of the Geneva convention, but this is... ugh:
https://www.stalkerzone.org/russia-with ... conflicts/

Lightsaber


Still less bad than targeting residential areas and apartment blocks. They already chose to go ugly days ago. Humans are disgusting.
 
alfa164
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:48 am

PixelPilot wrote:
Largest nuclear plant in Europe under attack. Live stream here. This is insane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYUT36YGOh8


I think this creates the perfect reason for Europe - with US backing - to establish a "no fly" zone over Ukraine. An attack on a nuclear facility obviously creates a clear and present danger to the entire region, and ultimately the world as a whole. Whatever reasons existed to avoid creating the zone is now outweighed by its need.

Everyone here - and everyone you know - should contact their governmental representatives to demand such action, making it clear that the justification for it is to prevent serious danger to the entire region. Establishing such a perimeter would give the Ukrainians a fair footing to stop ground troops from attacking facilities, assaulting cities, and aiming at the civilian population.


tomcat wrote:
As far as I am concerned, I'm aware that being a resident of this planet (more precisely a few km from the NATO headquarters) would get me exposed in case of a nuclear conflict. But so what? The prospect of living with Putin using permanent threats to drive the destiny of an entire continent isn't any greater than taking a chance of confronting his shitty army with conventional forces and taking the risk of having Russia resorting to nuclear bombs. History will remember that they would have been first to use these bombs during the conflict, if they would actually dare to use them, and if they work better than their poorly maintained military equipment's. But let's see, the economic sanctions will have some effects. And let's hope that the Ukrainians will resist long enough for the sanctions to inflict deeper wounds to the Russian economy.


This. Putin clearly doesn't care whom he attacks; his deranged sense of Russian superiority has proven to be a fairy tale, and the sooner we call his bluff, the safer we will be. Neville Chamberlain didn't save Europe from Hitler; standing up to him did.


drew777 wrote:
I suspect when this is all over, there will be a lot of people asking why NATO didn't respond sooner. Today it's shelling at the nuclear plant tomorrow it'll be something worse. Will use of a tactical nuke in Ukraine draw in foreign forces?


As the saying goes, "give him and inch, and he will take a mile."
 
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william
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:58 am

boyindra wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
T4thH wrote:

Sorry, but I deny a "demilitarization" of a country. Every country has the right to have an army, and even only for self defense. When this sillly man on the top is replaced; and perhaps Russia back on a better way for Kleptocracy to something reliable, I do not see a reason, for it.
And perhaps, we will all find a possibility, for the need of a only basic army, as German, I prefer peace...

I am old enough, I am still aware of the Cold war and the permanent "background" live in fear of everyone, even I was only a child. As German, I am still well aware of the stories of WWII of my grandparents, aunt....the stories of the displacement form the east, the story of my grandmother and aunt, who got places on the Wilhelm Gustloff, and pushed back from the ramp to the ship and transferred to one of the last trains on the way out. ,Everyone was happy to get on the Wilhelm Gustloff, no one wanted to leave on train. Their train got through. Two trains behind, back part was shot in flames, reached the save area half burning and the third...the Russian tanks were already parked on the railway tracks and the train was shot in pieces....

And we all know the story of the Wilhelm Gustloff, correct?


The tasking from jaro76 is making sure that it doesn´t repeat, and there are only 3 options:

1: Russia not having a military to speak of. I agree that is nonsensical, but that would make sure they won´t, because they can´t.
2. Regime change and transition into a stable democracy. So 20 years or so to take hold and yield returns.Not a solution for right after Ukraine
3. Russias Invasion into Ukraine fails so miserably that they now trying again only means more kicks into the balls.

Since 1 & 2 are either not practical or not anything that works in the short term, no. 3 is the only viable option to prevent "happening again".

best regards
Thomas


to go no 3, i think Ukrain need a hand from NATO. Cannot only send weapon then expect ukrain to kick russian out. question is..are you ready to deploy NATO force directly there and WW3?

Thanks


For those who did not live through the "cold war". This movie sent a chill when it debuted because it was what we feared everyday back then.

https://youtu.be/G8tFlGrgOlY?t=118
Last edited by william on Fri Mar 04, 2022 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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william
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 5:01 am

Latest news from CNN, radioactive levels are normal around the plant. For now.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/03/europe/z ... index.html
 
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DanielsBrawley
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 5:23 am

Putin needs to be eliminated. He's unhinged and inching the world closer to catastrophe. We can't stand by much longer and watch this new age hitler run the very playbook he's accusing the Ukrainians of. Intervention will have to come from somewhere.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 5:27 am

par13del wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
One concern I have as to the massive sanctions and related actions is the world price for oil with terrible affects on the world's economy. No one wants to purchase or ships pick up Russian oil due to the sanctions, not wanting to show any support for Russia and war risks. Gasoline and diesel prices in the USA have gone up $ 0.60/gallon in just a month, and likely another $.50-60 cents in the next weeks. Already gas prices in my home state of NJ have gone to over $ 4.00/gallon, in California to over $6.00/gallon. For sure in but for a few oil rich petrostates, similar increases are occurring. These higher energy prices will also mean much higher prices for everything else around the world. In the USA, this will destroy what little support the Biden Administration has and likely this fall massive losses of the Democrats on all levels of government. I am also quite sure all around the world it will likely mean demands to backing off the sanctions by politicians corporate interests for their domestic political survival and to prevent massive economic crises. People may want to support the Ukrainians, but sadly when their costs of living go up so much many will say let Russia take it over and give me back lower gasoline prices.

1. Take the gloves / restrictions off and let the Fracking industry go, previously they needed oil at a certain price to be profitable, now they also have the US politicians against them.
2. Anyone remember OPEC, is anyone looking to pressure them to increase production? Last we heard OPEC+ decided to not increase production due to the war.


1. Not just that - but Wall Street is also getting in the way of any accelerated production ramp-up even after this mess, so even if Biden called them up and allowed production anywhere, it probably won't happen (paywall):

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-shale- ... 1646051580

Smaller private producers who don't listen to profiteering a-holes in NYC are trying fill the void, to an extent:

https://m.investing.com/news/commoditie ... ay-2775973


2. OPEC has not budged and from looking at history, probably never will. SA and the UAE are pretty happy with their pact and relationship with Russia, even after this slaughter (shocker! :grumpy:). More revenue for them as well...
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 5:31 am

alberchico wrote:
https://twitter.com/KaiFund/status/1499576802075111424

U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham calls for President Putin's assassination :rotfl:


That's one of the most reasonable things this guy has said in a while. :cheeky:
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:05 am

alfa164 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Largest nuclear plant in Europe under attack. Live stream here. This is insane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYUT36YGOh8


I think this creates the perfect reason for Europe - with US backing - to establish a "no fly" zone over Ukraine. An attack on a nuclear facility obviously creates a clear and present danger to the entire region, and ultimately the world as a whole. Whatever reasons existed to avoid creating the zone is now outweighed by its need.

Everyone here - and everyone you know - should contact their governmental representatives to demand such action, making it clear that the justification for it is to prevent serious danger to the entire region. Establishing such a perimeter would give the Ukrainians a fair footing to stop ground troops from attacking facilities, assaulting cities, and aiming at the civilian population.


tomcat wrote:
As far as I am concerned, I'm aware that being a resident of this planet (more precisely a few km from the NATO headquarters) would get me exposed in case of a nuclear conflict. But so what? The prospect of living with Putin using permanent threats to drive the destiny of an entire continent isn't any greater than taking a chance of confronting his shitty army with conventional forces and taking the risk of having Russia resorting to nuclear bombs. History will remember that they would have been first to use these bombs during the conflict, if they would actually dare to use them, and if they work better than their poorly maintained military equipment's. But let's see, the economic sanctions will have some effects. And let's hope that the Ukrainians will resist long enough for the sanctions to inflict deeper wounds to the Russian economy.


This. Putin clearly doesn't care whom he attacks; his deranged sense of Russian superiority has proven to be a fairy tale, and the sooner we call his bluff, the safer we will be. Neville Chamberlain didn't save Europe from Hitler; standing up to him did.


drew777 wrote:
I suspect when this is all over, there will be a lot of people asking why NATO didn't respond sooner. Today it's shelling at the nuclear plant tomorrow it'll be something worse. Will use of a tactical nuke in Ukraine draw in foreign forces?


As the saying goes, "give him and inch, and he will take a mile."


I understand the sentiment and rationale for establishing a no-fly zone - but I think enabling it instead of providing it directly is more wise. Direct NATO involvement and potential engagement with Russian forces gives Putin the pretext to tell his domestic audience he was right - that this is indeed all about NATO.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:08 am

Poland to increase its military budget to 3% GDP for 2023 and an increase after that. Plan is also to have 300,000 strong military as part of a 5 year plan.

"There will be an amendment (to the defence plan): 3% of GDP on defence next year, then we will increase it," Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the leader of ruling nationalist Law and Justice party (PiS), told the lower house of parliament.“

“ Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak said the bill would raise the number of soldiers in the Polish army to 300,000 as part of a five-year plan. Poland currently has around 143,500 soldiers.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/poland-ramp- ... 27678.html
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:11 am

Aaron747 wrote:
My question with this kind of wanton destruction is - what kind of occupation do they have in mind?? There is no way there will be a compliant local population when the territory is secured.


Good question. It is one thing to govern your own people using repressive measures to quell opposition (imprisoning the political opposition, citizens demonstrating opposition) where much of the population supports the government. It is a different thing to govern a foreign people where opposition is almost universal.

I see this becoming Afghanistan Mk2 for occupying Russian troops.
 
cpd
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:27 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Very clear from footage being shown today that residential areas are intentionally targeted in Kharkiv and elsewhere.

Boy, good thing Russia’s not a Geneva signatory huh? :boggled:

My question with this kind of wanton destruction is - what kind of occupation do they have in mind?? There is no way there will be a compliant local population when the territory is secured.


That's what Russia calls peacekeeping I guess. argh.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:31 am

Going back to the petroweapin topic, I wonder if these types of speculation bets effectively put more money in Putler's pocket?

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-03-04/
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:33 am

cpd wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Very clear from footage being shown today that residential areas are intentionally targeted in Kharkiv and elsewhere.

Boy, good thing Russia’s not a Geneva signatory huh? :boggled:

My question with this kind of wanton destruction is - what kind of occupation do they have in mind?? There is no way there will be a compliant local population when the territory is secured.


That's what Russia calls peacekeeping I guess. argh.


The ICC needs to hurry up. It feels like they have more evidence at their disposal than the case where the Florida man called the cops when he couldn't find his weed...
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:42 am

william wrote:
boyindra wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

The tasking from jaro76 is making sure that it doesn´t repeat, and there are only 3 options:

1: Russia not having a military to speak of. I agree that is nonsensical, but that would make sure they won´t, because they can´t.
2. Regime change and transition into a stable democracy. So 20 years or so to take hold and yield returns.Not a solution for right after Ukraine
3. Russias Invasion into Ukraine fails so miserably that they now trying again only means more kicks into the balls.

Since 1 & 2 are either not practical or not anything that works in the short term, no. 3 is the only viable option to prevent "happening again".

best regards
Thomas


to go no 3, i think Ukrain need a hand from NATO. Cannot only send weapon then expect ukrain to kick russian out. question is..are you ready to deploy NATO force directly there and WW3?

Thanks


For those who did not live through the "cold war". This movie sent a chill when it debuted because it was what we feared everyday back then.

https://youtu.be/G8tFlGrgOlY?t=118


While The Day After was shocking, apparently even to Reagan, around the same time a BBC production made around the same time for a seventh of the budget and no major stars (but a mass of credits for scientific, military and political specialists), the writers even somehow got themselves on to local government civil defence training courses for those who would man dispersed government following the passing of an Emergency Powers Act. It made The Day After look pretty mild, as well as taking the longer view of the effects of such a war years afterwards, not to have a go at TDA, since the makers went as far as they could given the nature of mainstream US media channels at the time;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads_(1984_film)

Trailer was 2018 re-release, warning some disturbing images even in this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHyNFlhjojM

Maybe send a copy to every Russian Embassy?
 
marcelh
Posts: 2177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:10 am

jaro76 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
Our target should be to stop the war. If it takes a small reward to Russia, so be it. After make sure this will not repeat. And maybe, in a long run punish Putin.
Argument that we have to focus on punishing Russia, not an inch back above stopping this war, is IMHO wrong. It makes more people dying


Russia was already “rewarded” for their hostilities back in 2014 by taking Crimea and supporting the separatists in eastern Ukraine. Part of that reward was the shooting of MH17 by those separatists, using a BUK missile, provided by the Russians. You are so concerned about people dying, that day in July almost 300 people died (just over 200 were EU civilians, just like you). But those obviously don’t matter…..

You are only talking about the unreasonably punishment of Russia and conveniently ignoring the fact Russia invaded a country and is killing civillians because of the “Nazi-regime” in Kiev. Or do you also accept that excuse? Stopping with those sanctions won’t stop Putin and he will be rewarded with the occupation of Ukraine and destroy a democratic country. I would suggest you should reconsider your standards, they obviously don’t fit with what we have in the EU…..


Where I wrote that I accept nazi excuse or any other things?
I didn’t say you said it, it was the excuse by Putin to invade Ukraine, an act of violence you clearly want to downplay.

[qupte]What I'm trying to say, that in my opinion we shall focus on stopping war. Punishing Putin is secondary concern. I never wrote that sanctions should stop without Putin go away from Ukraine.

You want to reward the one who is using fake excuses to invade Ukraine.

I would be nice to see when people start using things like "destroying democratic country" or European country etc. Destroying any country is wrong. Would you tell, that destroying Saudi Arabia or UAE or let's say Singapore is not the same as destroying Ukraine?
You are adding irrelevant subjects to this matter. It’s about Ukraine and “rewarding” Putin. That has already happened in 2014 -a fact you ignore- just you are ignoring the shooting of MH17.
 
jaro76
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:55 am

THS214 wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Russia was already “rewarded” for their hostilities back in 2014 by taking Crimea and supporting the separatists in eastern Ukraine. Part of that reward was the shooting of MH17 by those separatists, using a BUK missile, provided by the Russians. You are so concerned about people dying, that day in July almost 300 people died (just over 200 were EU civilians, just like you). But those obviously don’t matter…..

You are only talking about the unreasonably punishment of Russia and conveniently ignoring the fact Russia invaded a country and is killing civillians because of the “Nazi-regime” in Kiev. Or do you also accept that excuse? Stopping with those sanctions won’t stop Putin and he will be rewarded with the occupation of Ukraine and destroy a democratic country. I would suggest you should reconsider your standards, they obviously don’t fit with what we have in the EU…..

What I'm trying to say, that in my opinion we shall focus on stopping war.


Great, Russia has already said that eastern Ukraine as well as Crimea should be formally Russian territory. Also Ukraine leaders should be thrown out as the jew is a Nazi. Also Ukraine should be demilitarized and a lot more. What about the Russian guarantee for Ukraine safety as they gave nuclear weapons to Russia? Maybe you tell us what will be reasonable sacrifice for Ukraine? Putin today said that from now on the demands for peace will get bigger. Sorry only in Finnish and just couple lines worthy. But the rules are rules. https://www.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/a/969 ... 0d936a2a8e

You only tell that Ukraine should surrender. Why not asking Russia to surrender as they are on a foreign soil? After all they are the aggressor and if they surrender the war will end.


First, i never said I consider original Crimea annexation in 2014 as a good thing. I will not start a discussion about it's history here. That is for other time and other place.

Second, never said that Ukraine should just give up.

I'm honestly asking whether what we did and were doing before this is the best to stop the war. I do believe, that we failed. And we are failing as war is still ongoing.

As for rules are rules - I would honestly love that. I would love that everyone and everywhere would have to respect and would respect same rules. But that is not happening. You have big guys and small guys. Small one have to follow rules, big guys can safely ignore them. Example, Irak 2 without UNSC approval. What are US troops doing in Syria? What are drone killings? But leave this out of this tread. We should focus on Ukraine and how to stop this war.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:06 am

jaro76 wrote:
I do believe, that we failed. And we are failing as war is still ongoing.


What is your proposal to fix it that will not embolden Putin into believing his tactics have won the day and he is free to repeat them?

It kind of sounds like your solution to stopping the war is a full surrender by Ukraine. Easy to say when you don't live there.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4639
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:30 am

jaro76 wrote:
We should focus on Ukraine and how to stop this war.


I disagree, we should focus on suitable outcomes, one of which may be a speedy end to the war however other things need to be taken in to account including but not limited to:
1. Long term freedom of the Ukrainian people
2. Continued signalling that the behaviour putin has shown will not end in reward, I.e. economic sanctions and no long term occupation of Ukraine.
3. Minimising risk of escalation to global issues, I.e. a European shooting war or catastrophic damage to nuclear sites.
4. Demonstrate to partners and enablers of the Russian invasion will be treated as equally culpable as the Russia.
5. Allow Russian citizens to know the truth so they can understand the root cause of any pain they are feeling and self determine the route forward for their country and not impose regime change on them.

There will be more than this but to say “just stop the war as quickly as possible” is how you end up with the international diplomacy version of a spoilt kid who has a tantrum because they have taught that the tantrum works.

If putin invaded the US do you think he would be allowed to keep Alaska just to stop him from from continuing a war? Do you think Ukrainians are more or less valuable than Americans?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Last edited by flipdewaf on Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 15982
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:33 am

alberchico wrote:
https://twitter.com/KaiFund/status/1499576802075111424

U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham calls for President Putin's assassination :rotfl:


Well Putin is calling for Zelensky's assassination (and sent hundreds of men specifically for that purpose) so gloves are off.
 
art
Posts: 5168
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:37 am

I don't see the Ukrainians being able to stem the Russian advance. They have received thousands of anti-tank missiles (Javelin, NLAW and today I read 2,700 Russian weapons inherited from East Germany are being sent). How many Russian tanks/associated armed armoured vehicles/artillery pieces have been knocked out? If it were a significant number, I am sure Ukraine would be publicising it.

Ukraine has received hundreds or thousands of Stinger anti-aircraft missiles. How many Russian aircraft have been downed?

I get the feeling that Russia is advancing inexorably, albeit far more slowly than anticipated by Moscow. Thousands of Ukraine citizens are being slaughtered by Russian artillery, missiles and aircraft. Millions of refugees are to be expected. I hope that plans for resistance after the country has fallen are being implemented. The only way I see Ukraine restoring its liberty is when a combination of sanctions and occupying troop losses through armed resistance forces Putin's hand or forces his removal from power.

My sympathy and admiration to the valiant people of Ukraine.
 
jaro76
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:39 am

Virtual737 wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
I do believe, that we failed. And we are failing as war is still ongoing.


What is your proposal to fix it that will not embolden Putin into believing his tactics have won the day and he is free to repeat them?

It kind of sounds like your solution to stopping the war is a full surrender by Ukraine. Easy to say when you don't live there.


Before the war I would follow Henry Kissinger proposal from 2014 - Ukraine shall be strong neutral country profiting from good business done with both sides. Now, I'm not sure anymore. I posted a link to his article in my post before.

Maybe time to ask Henry Kissinger what he would propose. After all, he was one of those, who recognized ages ago that NATO expansion would alienate Russia and cause problems. He has very very long time experience. He is far from being Russophile, so IMHO would not side with them. I'm wondering, why we do not hear from him now.
 
boyindra
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:43 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:39 am

SEAorPWM wrote:
par13del wrote:
ltbewr wrote:


2. OPEC has not budged and from looking at history, probably never will. SA and the UAE are pretty happy with their pact and relationship with Russia, even after this slaughter (shocker! :grumpy:). More revenue for them as well...



it happens that most of opec not coming from east or west. These country is used to get bullied by east and west. These country think this war is between west and east not with them. When Israel occupy west bank/palestine, west keep silent so they will only condemn but no real action.
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4503
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:42 am

I also do not see a quick end of Putin‘s war. As sad as it is, the only language Russian people will understand are coffins of their fallen soldiers arriving in Moscow.
 
jaro76
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:44 am

flipdewaf wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
We should focus on Ukraine and how to stop this war.


I disagree, we should focus on suitable outcomes, one of which may be a speedy end to the war however other things need to be taken in to account including but not limited to:
1. Long term freedom of the Ukrainian people
2. Continued signalling that the behaviour putin has shown will not end in reward, I.e. economic sanctions and no long term occupation of Ukraine.
3. Minimising risk of escalation to global issues, I.e. a European shooting war or catastrophic damage to nuclear sites.
4. Demonstrate to partners and enablers of the Russian invasion will be treated as equally culpable as the Russia.
5. Allow Russian citizens to know the truth so they can understand the root cause of any pain they are feeling and self determine the route forward for their country and not impose regime change on them.

There will be more than this but to say “just stop the war as quickly as possible” is how you end up with the international diplomacy version of a spoilt kid who has a tantrum because they have taught that the tantrum works.

If putin invaded the US do you think he would be allowed to keep Alaska just to stop him from from continuing a war? Do you think Ukrainians are more or less valuable than Americans?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I agree with you. But IMHO first priority shall be stopping the war. The others are secondary. If we put any of those above stopping the war, we let more and more people die.

I would even add to it, that we shall think how to offer Russia equal place, not an outcast position. After ww1 Germany was outcast. WW2 was result. After cold war end, all could join NATO, but not Russia. Well before Putin, when Russia was down, traying hard to become friend, democaracy and integrate, NATO was enlarged to help with historical paranoia in Poland, Baltics etc. But no one was looking at Russian historical paranoia. They were treated to a large degree as outcast. One of the reasons why we today where we are.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:02 am

jaro76 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
I do believe, that we failed. And we are failing as war is still ongoing.


What is your proposal to fix it that will not embolden Putin into believing his tactics have won the day and he is free to repeat them?

It kind of sounds like your solution to stopping the war is a full surrender by Ukraine. Easy to say when you don't live there.


Before the war I would follow Henry Kissinger proposal from 2014 - Ukraine shall be strong neutral country profiting from good business done with both sides. Now, I'm not sure anymore. I posted a link to his article in my post before.

Maybe time to ask Henry Kissinger what he would propose. After all, he was one of those, who recognized ages ago that NATO expansion would alienate Russia and cause problems. He has very very long time experience. He is far from being Russophile, so IMHO would not side with them. I'm wondering, why we do not hear from him now.


I do get the intentions behind what you write, but you're still taking away (totally), Ukraine's own right to determine what they want to do as a sovereign nation. ie it's not up to you, me, Henry Kissinger and most definitely not Herr Putin to tell Ukraine how they must live.
 
marcelh
Posts: 2177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:04 am

jaro76 wrote:
cpd wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Very clear from footage being shown today that residential areas are intentionally targeted in Kharkiv and elsewhere.

Boy, good thing Russia’s not a Geneva signatory huh? :boggled:

My question with this kind of wanton destruction is - what kind of occupation do they have in mind?? There is no way there will be a compliant local population when the territory is secured.


That's what Russia calls peacekeeping I guess. argh.


Well, I would recommend to have a look at the pictures from Libya peacekeeping results after West was done there. They even targeted and destroyed water sources:
https://theecologist.org/2015/may/14/wa ... rastructur

I think we honestly should be less emotional and more logical.

And again you.are distracting from the subject here, which is Russia invading Ukraine.
I see what you are doing
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14915
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:14 am

art wrote:
If it were a significant number, I am sure Ukraine would be publicising it..


they do that daily.

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/stat ... 3802541057

Esspechially the Javelin seems to work really well:

https://t.co/3hmMBbdcBI (not available in the EU w/o VPN)
https://twitter.com/JackMurphyRGR/statu ... 1964235781

best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
jaro76
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:18 am

Virtual737 wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

What is your proposal to fix it that will not embolden Putin into believing his tactics have won the day and he is free to repeat them?

It kind of sounds like your solution to stopping the war is a full surrender by Ukraine. Easy to say when you don't live there.


Before the war I would follow Henry Kissinger proposal from 2014 - Ukraine shall be strong neutral country profiting from good business done with both sides. Now, I'm not sure anymore. I posted a link to his article in my post before.

Maybe time to ask Henry Kissinger what he would propose. After all, he was one of those, who recognized ages ago that NATO expansion would alienate Russia and cause problems. He has very very long time experience. He is far from being Russophile, so IMHO would not side with them. I'm wondering, why we do not hear from him now.


I do get the intentions behind what you write, but you're still taking away (totally), Ukraine's own right to determine what they want to do as a sovereign nation. ie it's not up to you, me, Henry Kissinger and most definitely not Herr Putin to tell Ukraine how they must live.


Will you fight for sovereignty of each and every country in the world the same way? Will you be outraged by invasion to each and every sovereign country same way? Will you be outraged same way, if USA puts sanctions on allies because it does not like what they do? If not, you are creating more and more problems.

NOTE: I agree with you. I like ideals. But we are not clean here and world is not perfect. 1962 Cuba was violation of Cuban sovereignty as well as Russian. Both sides found outcome that suit them both. Was it violation of country sovereignty? Yes. Was it good outcome? IMHO great. No ww3, no one dying. I picked Cuba as example, as it is well in the past and both sides opened archives about it. So we can look behind what was in the news.
Last edited by jaro76 on Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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