Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:55 pm

ZKCIF wrote:
I quote from jaro76, post 2271 in this thread:

Heck, Baltics did not consider any Russian living there a native even they were born there during USSR times.

My background:
I am Lithuanian, and, apart from travelling, I have been living in Lithuania all of my life.
I live in Kaunas, the city which has always been the symbol of nationalism in Lithuania.
I was born in 1975 and lived 15 years in the Soviet Union. Genetically, I am Jewish, but my first language is Lithuanian. I am perfectly fluent in Russian.
I represented an Anti-Soviet family, and I was prosecuted for my political views from the age of 7 (seven) when I refused to wear the Lenin's badge and I wore instead the badge featuring Trakai Castle, one of the symbols of our statehood. In my pre-teen years, I already knew in person many leaders of political resistance, such as Nijolė Sadūnaitė.
As early as in the primary school, I had talks with 'men in grey' about my political views.
Therefore, I believe that if anyone in Lithuania can have the worst grudge against the USSR, i am in a tiny group of several hundred or only several dozen people.

Therefore, I believe that I am qualified to know what it feels to be a Lithuanian in Lithuania and a Russian in Lithuania.
In Lithuania, there is no discrimination of the people of the Russian origin. Russian people are as respected as anyone else here.
We can even come back to the years of the 16th century religious fights in Europe and remember the only country where all religions and nationalities were actually and really tolerated and respected. Correct, that was Lithuania (and that continued after the full union with Poland, after 1569).
I have a Russian colleague. EVERYBODY considers her native.
In my previous job (before 2021; for 23 years in total), I had two Russian colleagues. Both were not singled out any time. They are native.
My PhD supervisor was Russian. She would be shocked if she found out that she is worse in our society.
My MA supervisor was Russian. And he was native.
These people do not want war.
And these people have always been an equal and valuable part of our society.
And these people are donating heavily (except for one putinist; yet even she has never been ostracized)
they speak fluent Lithuanian, even though it is probably the third most difficult language in Europe
I have taught more than 50 Russian students in my life. no segregation among children. same parties, same beer and cigarettes, same sex. no one cares if you are Lithuanian or Russian
Come to Lithuania anytime and see what's the situation of Russians here.
In Vilnius Airport, many important messages are in 3 languages, including Russian. Same goes at Vilnius railway station.

rant over
this was not a personal attack, but rather information that some people on this forum base their claims on explicit lies in order to disrupt the constructive conversation


Thank you for correction and actually engaging in discussion. Really appreciate it.

I failed here to be specific here. Baltic countries are treating ex soviet citizens differently. My issue is with Estonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_ ... s_passport:
After independence in 1991, the Estonian government automatically granted Estonian citizenship to the persons who resided in the country before its annexation by the Soviet Union in 1940, as well as to their descendants. Those who could not prove that or arrived after 1940 and their children born in Estonia or elsewhere could acquire Estonian citizenship on condition that they be proficient in the Estonian language and know the country's history. But about 125,000 people (most but not all of whom were Russian speakers) who failed the tests or refused to take them have become stateless, or “non-citizens”, who hold a grey passport.



And Latvia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizens_(Latvia):
The non-citizens are "citizens of the former USSR (...) who reside in the Republic of Latvia as well as who are in temporary absence and their children who simultaneously comply with the following conditions: 1) on 1 July 1992 they were registered in the territory of Latvia regardless of the status of the living space indicated in the registration of residence, or up to 1 July 1992 their last registered place of residence was in the Republic of Latvia, or it has been determined by a court judgment that they have resided in the territory of Latvia for 10 consecutive years until the referred to date; 2) they are not citizens of Latvia; and 3) they are not and have not been citizens of another state." as well as "children of [the aforementioned] if both of their parents were non-citizens at the time of the birth of the children or one of the parents is a non-citizen, but the other is a stateless person or is unknown, or in accordance with the mutual agreement of the parents, if one of the parents is a non-citizen, but the other – a citizen of another country".[2]


So my apology to get Lithuania into this. I will be more careful next time. That is my last post about this exact topic as I do not want to derail the topic.
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:55 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
jaro76 wrote:

They lost the buffer zone. Look at the map. There are no natural obstacles between NATO borders all the way to Ural.


So what!? If your previous acquaintances decide they’d like to be friends with someone else and not you then it’s on YOU to change your behaviour NOT on others to appease you lest you have a violent outburst. Maybe they don’t like you because of your tendency towards violent outbursts. One might imagine that directing a violent outburst toward a previous acquaintance won’t help in that regard and unsurprisingly their new friends might actually help them not be a victim to those violent outbursts.

Russia is currently the equivalent of the angry ex-boyfriend walking around with a gun threatening new partners in the hope that that will bring her back. You seem to be suggesting that just a little bit of non consensual sex is acceptable to appease and him and then maybe he’ll be nicer to everyone else…

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


To a degree I agree. However, how is this any different from 1992 Cuba. The only difference is that USA (the violent bully ex in this case) and the new boyfriend (Russia) were able to find a solution that worked for both. Still, sovereignty of Cuba was violated. There were US ships throwing debt charges targeting Russian submarines and we were damn close ww3. Are you arguing, that USA has absolutely no right to do what it did in 1962? If yes, then I clap my hands for applying same meter to both cases. If not, it is quite a bit hypocritical.
Some people might argue a different times and different side involved. But the same people will argue, that Baltic wanted to join NATO because how they were treated by USSR.

We have a bully even now throwing sanction on allies (USA vs the world).

Maybe, just for a moment, we all should drop from the moral high ground horse that we love to drive and actually think in the context of a reality and what the world really is, instead of what we wish it to be. If we would do it ages ago, IMHO we would not be where we are. And if we would do it now, we would probable start thinking and talking a bit more long term than what sanction to apply tomorrow (my slight exaggeration of what is going on).
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 9080
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:57 pm

How do you think the influx of heavy weaponry to civilians will play into an EU bid?

To be clear, I'm not against arming the populace here, and I'm for Ukraine's quick entry into the EU, but it's an interesting question. Ukraine being in the EU will surely open the borders of Ukraine into the EU, and weapons can easily flow in ...
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:03 pm

jaro76 wrote:
To a degree I agree. However, how is this any different from 1992 Cuba. The only difference is that USA (the violent bully ex in this case) and the new boyfriend (Russia) were able to find a solution that worked for both.


You must mean 1962?

I would think now many in Cuba would love to become the new US girl friend but many may not want to lose that cultural identity and chaos that will come with rapid economic development.

bt
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:04 pm

johns624 wrote:
jaro76 wrote:

They lost the buffer zone. Look at the map. There are no natural obstacles between NATO borders all the way to Ural.
Why does Russia need a "buffer zone"? Their old buffer zone was smaller, poorer countries who they subjugated and oppressed, who finally got their independence. NATO has not desire to go to the Urals.


Buffer zone was needed for their protection and slow down potential enemy. There is no natural obstacle in the northern European plain.
I would say that Finland models what they would be totally OK with. There was a good book from former BBC war corresponded about how geography is shaping politics and military strategy. One of the chapters is about Russia and the "buffer".

As for no desire of NATO to go to Ural. Well, maybe not now. But can happen ... Just that is not now, can change. At least that is realistic view on history. No one wanted to start ww1. But few shots in Sarajevo started a long chain of events ...
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24168
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:07 pm

mm... USA is not leading in the sanctuons by any stretch of the imagination. Never before has the world been so united. This could be the war to end wars against countries in the global supply chain.

Countries outside or small trade players are on their own.

Sanctions haven't really started. We must join Europe in banning insurance in Russia as no one would trust most insurance companies to pay up in a multi billion dollar incident (air or ship crash). I can only think of 5 insurance companies that would be taken seriously to insure them.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
How do you think the influx of heavy weaponry to civilians will play into an EU bid?

To be clear, I'm not against arming the populace here, and I'm for Ukraine's quick entry into the EU, but it's an interesting question. Ukraine being in the EU will surely open the borders of Ukraine into the EU, and weapons can easily flow in ...

Switzerland and Finland have very well armed populations. Ukraine needs a far better armed population. It will be interesting to see how attitudes change.

Lightsaber
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:09 pm

bikerthai wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
1991-2010


Ah, I thought you were talking about the time from the establishment of NATO.

Seems to me, from 1991-2010, portion of Russian society was too busy getting rich by selling petroleum to the West to worry about NATO.

bt


Well, i'm comparing the times. WW2 end 1945. NATO was established in 1949. 1954 Russia asked to join (seriously! https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publicatio ... march-1954)
1955 Germany is in NATO. So from being pariah to +- full rehabilitation for Germany in ~10 years. Russia after 1991 never even considered to join the club.

As for part of the society getting rich .. well, west helped to plunder Russian economy during Yeltsin times. We closed our collective eyes and let dirty money flow to the western banks. But that is for other discussions.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4521
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:13 pm

jaro76 wrote:
Buffer zone was needed for their protection and slow down potential enemy. There is no natural obstacle in the northern European plain.


So putin should have been able to maintain an “operation human shield” against their will so he wouldn’t have a tantrum? Well as it is right now he invaded that “human shield” and so if Ukraine capitulate, as you suggested, then what next, move the buffer zone away? Remove folks from NATO.

Why should russia get special treatment and be able to deny some countries freedoms afforded to others just so they can behave badly.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:14 pm

bikerthai wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
To a degree I agree. However, how is this any different from 1992 Cuba. The only difference is that USA (the violent bully ex in this case) and the new boyfriend (Russia) were able to find a solution that worked for both.


You must mean 1962?

I would think now many in Cuba would love to become the new US girl friend but many may not want to lose that cultural identity and chaos that will come with rapid economic development.

bt


yes. Correct. 1962.

I know. But in 1962 they were still quite happy of getting rid of Batista (corrupt dictator supported by USA)

Now I think that passed and they should find a better way to go from communist rule to democracy than the shock and super corrupt times in the European ex communist block. Hope they succeed in that and keep their identity in the process.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:19 pm

jaro76 wrote:
As for no desire of NATO to go to Ural. Well, maybe not now. But can happen ... Just that is not now, can change. At least that is realistic view on history.


:rotfl:

Just as realistic as Russia wanting Alaska back.

jaro76 wrote:
As for part of the society getting rich .. well, west helped to plunder Russian economy during Yeltsin times. We closed our collective eyes and let dirty money flow to the western banks. But that is for other discussions.

Just like the West plundering South Korea, Japan, Saudi Arabia etc.

At last you have just admit that it is your fault "We closed our collective eyes" . Do not punish Ukraine for that failure.

bt
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:22 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
Buffer zone was needed for their protection and slow down potential enemy. There is no natural obstacle in the northern European plain.


So putin should have been able to maintain an “operation human shield” against their will so he wouldn’t have a tantrum? Well as it is right now he invaded that “human shield” and so if Ukraine capitulate, as you suggested, then what next, move the buffer zone away? Remove folks from NATO.

Why should russia get special treatment and be able to deny some countries freedoms afforded to others just so they can behave badly.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Nope, we .. meaning NATO, Europe .. should have made an effort in the the 1991 till ~2005 to actually make security architecture in Europe that would mean Russia does not need it.
NATO was created against Russia. Expansion was never really gonna be perceived as friendly by Russia. I would love to see a world that we actually get all on board.
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:25 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

NATO membership must be requested by Ukraine. It would have been difficult because there was already an active war in Eastern Ukraine.

But good question.

Sweden and Finland would be easier to admit because economic and military ties are already established.



Excuses. People uses history to buffer their own fear and belief. Sometimes it is justified and sometimes it is paranoia.

You can find examples around the word when chances for democracy is derailed by greed and power lust (among other human failings) by various groups. Afghanistan is the latest example among many stretching to Africa, the Americas and Asia.

Democratization like NATO memberhsip require certain factors to come together. Some are lucky to attain it but require the cooperation of the populace.

bt


Paranoia is not rational. But people in general are not. If you want to be on a good terms, triggering paranoia is not good.
Also, if one side can argument with paranoia, than it is also OK for others (Baltics/Poland vs Russia paranoia).

As for democracy being needed for membership in NATO .. well, Turkey is prime example that we do not mind that much.
So having Russia on path to democracy (90' ) in a full ascension process would IMHO help a lot and prevent current situation.


So are you essentially saying that if we’re nice to Russia, they’ll be nice back? Are there are historical precedents set that show they can behave like big boys are girls?


I'm saying that if we would get Russia into NATO in the 90', together with Baltics and Poland, they would be no paranoia in Russia and we would probably never have to deal with alienated Russia by now.

As for precedent. . well, ww2 Germany lost. They got Marshal plan and by 10 years after the ww2 they were in NATO. They were integrated right after the ware.
 
889091
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:25 pm

bikerthai wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
We never tried when we had a chance. So we do not know. They did ask to join, but were refused in informal settings. I already sent you links about that.


That's because the West was still hoping to retain its imperial influences and Russia was busy expanding its own aspiration by supporting revolutions around the word. Korea, Cuba, Vietnam and so on.

To say that NATO could have offered Russia membership would be like offering a man a Toyota while he's driving a Ferrari.

bt


I'll take a Toyota any day over a Ferrari...... ;-)
https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/The_Ind ... ible_Hilux
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:26 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
johns624 wrote:
jaro76 wrote:

They lost the buffer zone. Look at the map. There are no natural obstacles between NATO borders all the way to Ural.
Why does Russia need a "buffer zone"? Their old buffer zone was smaller, poorer countries who they subjugated and oppressed, who finally got their independence. NATO has not desire to go to the Urals.

As far as I can tell the “buffer zone” really means a way to keep a sphere of influence whilst not having to modify abhorrent behaviour.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Abhorrent behavior in 1991-2002? Like what?
IMHO Finland was totally acceptable scenario for Russia.
 
889091
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:27 pm

par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Putin called the sanctions almost an act of war, so it must hurt somehow….


I don't get what he intended by saying that. Saying it before the war, OK, it might make some countries hesitant. But saying it now that sanctions are already in place, and he hasn't started a nuclear holocaust in response, is useless.


Note also that he has not turned off his oil / gas exports and countries are still buying.


How are countries actually still paying for this? Gold bars? Serious question though.
Last edited by 889091 on Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:28 pm

jaro76 wrote:
Now I think that passed and they should find a better way to go from communist rule to democracy than the shock and super corrupt times in the European ex communist block. Hope they succeed in that and keep their identity in the process.


I would agree that going from authoritarian to a democracy is very difficult. Sometimes it takes someone outside of political sphere to set it in motion. Chile have succeeded as has some Latin American countries while others are still "in work".

Ukraine was on its way with their actor/comedian president. Now this invasion has upended all that and may have given birth to a new hardline/anti-Russian society. The total opposite of what you are trying to avoid. Or maybe it is exactly what Putin wants, being a great tactician and all.

bt
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:31 pm

889091 wrote:
take a Toyota any day over a Ferrari......


Touche'

:highfive:

With gas prices going up, I'm glad I have an electric car.

bt
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:35 pm

889091 wrote:
How are countries actually still paying for this? Gold bars? Serious question though.


Could they still pay in to a frozen account? Russia just can't take the money out, but it would still belong to them.

bt
Last edited by bikerthai on Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 24168
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:39 pm

Visa, Mastercard, and Amex suspend transactions in Russia.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/visa-m ... -invasion/

Anyone who has read "The World is Flat" knows this is just starting. With companies voluntarily cutting business ties, in effect corporate sanctions, this is interesting.

I imagine the threat to nationalize the commercial aircraft has so spooked Businesses that they are in full retreat.

https://eturbonews.com/3025721/russia-t ... us-planes/

Lightsaber
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 15602
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:42 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
How do you think the influx of heavy weaponry to civilians will play into an EU bid?

To be clear, I'm not against arming the populace here, and I'm for Ukraine's quick entry into the EU, but it's an interesting question. Ukraine being in the EU will surely open the borders of Ukraine into the EU, and weapons can easily flow in ...


The borders are open right now. I wouldn't be surprised to learn some smuggling is already going on. Let's hope it doesn't include stingers...

Ukraine will not become an EU member anytime soon, so the point is quite moot.

We already have Croatia and Romania in the EU to provide us with AK47...
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:48 pm

Just an essay on how American could relate to Ukranians. It also is glaring on how even in the US, democracy is a work in progress.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/03/06/poli ... index.html

bt
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:52 pm

Aesma wrote:
Ukraine will not become an EU member anytime soon, so the point is quite moot.


Is there any provision like the US second amendment in Europe? If not, then it should be possible to retrieve much (but not all) of the distributed arms when all of this is over.

The rest will probably make their way to other regions with active conflict.

bt
 
johns624
Posts: 5523
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:00 pm

jaro76 wrote:

I'm saying that if we would get Russia into NATO in the 90', together with Baltics and Poland, they would be no paranoia in Russia and we would probably never have to deal with alienated Russia by now.
What makes you think that Russia would've wanted to be in NATO with the US controlling it?
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4521
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:03 pm

jaro76 wrote:

Abhorrent behavior in 1991-2002? Like what?

The cluster bombing of Chechen civilians?

Why would you limit it to the 1991-2002 period anyway? You think putin isn’t driven by anything from the Cold War? Hilarious!

jaro76 wrote:
IMHO Finland was totally acceptable scenario for Russia.


WTF! You know who gets to decide Finnish military policy right? Ill give you a clue, it’s not the USA, it’s not the EU, it’s not NATO and it certainly isn’t Russia, it’s a country known as ‘Finland’. Finland can decide if they want it to be acceptable to Russia or they can decide to do formation flights spelling out the names of the spice girls. It’s. Up. To. Finland.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
889091
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:21 pm

Meanwhile....

https://www.news.com.au/sport/more-spor ... db5c86684d


"Ukraine’s Illia Kovtun claimed victory in the parallel bars at the Artistic Gymnastics World Cup in Doha, Qatar. Kazakhstan’s Milad Karimi secured the silver medal, with Russia’s Ivan Kuliak taking bronze.

But when Kuliak stepped onto the podium it became apparent he was sporting the ‘Z’ symbol on his kit.

Vladimir Putin’s supporters have been seen wearing clothes and badges with the letter ‘Z’ on – referencing their support for the invasion of Ukraine.
"
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 26332
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:27 pm

American Express Suspends Operations in Russia and Belarus

https://about.americanexpress.com/all-n ... fault.aspx

--

PwC is also separating itself from its Russian business.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... kraine-war
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 15602
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:43 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Ukraine will not become an EU member anytime soon, so the point is quite moot.


Is there any provision like the US second amendment in Europe? If not, then it should be possible to retrieve much (but not all) of the distributed arms when all of this is over.

The rest will probably make their way to other regions with active conflict.

bt


The control of arms isn't an EU competence so each country does what it wants.
 
tomcat
Posts: 1035
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:52 pm

bikerthai wrote:
889091 wrote:
take a Toyota any day over a Ferrari......


Touche'

:highfive:

With gas prices going up, I'm glad I have an electric car.

bt


You obviously don't live in one of these European countries where electricity price is going through the roof :-). Our good old diesel cars will be missed even with diesel above €2/l or $9/gal. But all this is a secondary issue compared to the impact of the current energy prices (nat gas and electricity) on our industry.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2795
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:20 pm

wingman wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Back to Ukraine. A talking head on CNN brought up potential use of chemical weapons in Ukraine. Would that finally be the straw to force NATO to intercedes?

bt


At this point, I'm almost willing to bet Putin could use a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine and NATO will not intervene.

A coalition of aligned countries might intervene in SOMETHING, but I personally doubt NATO will.


So right here, right now, in this 10 day old conflict you would advise NATO to declare war on Russia and start WWIII? That's what you and others on this forum are advocating for, going beyond the crystal clear boundaries of NATO's founding principles and obligations to engage with Russia in Ukraine, and likely within days in the Baltics, Poland, Germany and beyond. You think this is the correct move at this juncture? I want you to write down in this thread so we can all see it - "I, Pellegrine, believe that WWIII is the only intelligent move we can make right now." I'm not insulting you, I'm challenging you to type that out so you can, hopefully, appreciate the undeniable madness of it.


Note that I do not believe it would be aligned with the ultimate goal of minimizing human suffering, in the long term, globally, that NATO as a bloc gets involved in this. I'm not one of the hawkish on this forum, and not generally in life. I'm concerned with humanity. Right now there is not much "like minded" people can do. We are going to be made to watch this.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4589
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:31 pm

bikerthai wrote:
To say that NATO could have offered Russia membership would be like offering a man a Toyota while he's driving a Ferrari.

That’s an interesting analogy.

A toyota might be boring as hell, but it will always work, maintenance is relatively cheap, running costs are cheap and it will fit a whole family.

Meanwhile, a Ferrari is very exciting for sure. But unless you are loaded with cash, the maintenance and running costs will run you down. Not to mention having to take out the engine every other year for heavy maintenance.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:38 pm

tomcat wrote:
You obviously don't live in one of these European countries where electricity price is going through the roof .


True my electricity comes from massive hydro dams.

petertenthije wrote:
A toyota might be boring as hell, but it will always work, maintenance is relatively cheap, running costs are cheap and it will fit a whole family.

Meanwhile, a Ferrari is very exciting for sure. But unless you are loaded with cash, the maintenance and running costs will run you down. Not to mention having to take out the engine every other year for heavy maintenance.


You got the heart of my analogy. I was going to compare Toyota to a Jaguar, but i've always admire Ferraris more than Jaguars.

And yes democracy is also exciting but require constant maintenance as well.


bt
 
Kilopond
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:43 pm

tomcat wrote:
[...]You obviously don't live in one of these European countries where electricity price is going through the roof :-).[...]


That's very important to mention because more often than not one KWh costs over one buck* (for consumers, all-in) based on the epexspot.com exchange spot prices. Those do not include any duties, taxes, surcharges etc. which in real life will double or triple the base price.

*One buck is roughly one Pound Sterling, one Swiss Franc, one US Dollar or one Euro. Electricity prices are much more volatile than currency exchange rates.
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Well you are absolutely wrong. It is abundantly clear that given an inch putin tries to take a foot, he has crept his way in to this awful position and likely the previous lack of action has emboldened him rather than trying to be friendly and capitulating further than has already been done is not sensible. When a child has a tantrum over wanting something the easy thing to do is to give them that thing, the right thing to do is something different, not because it is better for the immediate but because it is better for the long term.

You know how utterly useless what you are suggesting is right? It’s like when someone asks “what’s the best way to get to X?” And then responding with “starting from somewhere else”

You have continually advocated rolling over and letting the Russians have Ukraine and likely lead to removed freedoms for the Ukrainian people under the guise of ‘less deaths now’. You have also suggested that the freedom of nations to join NATO should have been removed to appease a dictator who claimed it posed a threat when self evidently the threat is FROM that dictator, even to his own people, although that’s hardly surprising.

Putin saying “I don’t want them joining NATO in case they are a threat to me” is really “I don’t want them joining NATO so I remain a threat to them”

You say you aren’t a putin apologist but everything else you have stated sings a different tune.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm not his apologist. If something, I'm Russia 1991-2001 apologist. But that is for other discussion.

What I'm trying to say here, that beside:
- give Ukraine more weapons
- punish Putin
I do not see any long term plan. That is exactly the problem that get us into current situation. Well, at least in my opinion.
What is our long term plan? More sanctions? Sanctions forever?
Well, considering how great they worked on Cuba, we are in for a loooooong wait. Which is IMHO not good. And they will not solve how we are going to integrate Russia? Before ww2 end, there was already a plan how to rebuild and integrate Germany. I really hope this war will not be as long as ww2. So I would expect already someone planning how to avoid same mistake as we did with ww1 Germany and Russia after 1991.

The long term plan is integrate Ukraine into the EU economy.

To avoid this is for Russia to withdrawal from Ukraine, including the Crimea.

You are comparing the wrong wars, this is Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Put a large number of rifles into civilian hands so only a just government can rule, I suggest 20 million plus 20 billion rounds of ammo. At least 20,000 javalins and 5,000 stingers. Of course smuggle into the Crimea weapons

This will be a long partisan fight as the people of Ukraine do not want to be under a Tsar again.

The other long term plan is to make such an unjust war too costly to consider ever again. Have you read Thomas Friedman's "The World is Flat?" One must read that book to understand the sanctions have so far been light.

Soon people will realize tougher sanctions are needed to disuade such behavior. This is to prevent future unjust wars. I'm curious what other sanctions must be implimented. I personally feel strong enough about this I am diverting money away from business supporting Russia and thus the invasion.

Sanctions haven't mattered yet. Time to get real with them and punish companies and countries bypassing them.

I've never before seen the world so united on an issue.

Lightsaber


I have read "The world is flat". Unfortunately, that will apply to our advantage as well as disadvantage.

I personally feel strong enough about this, that I divert my money to help Ukrainians.

As for punishing countries who do not follow our sanctions. Aren't you arguing about violating their sovereignty right now? Or you are actually arguing for that? :)
I'm pretty sure, that the world outside "western bubble" who up to now chose to not be involved (India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Izrael.... to list only few), will be really really happy once we try to arm-wrestle them on sanctions and drag them into our war. When we were conveniently ignoring other conflicts, human rights violations and so on. "West" is united. But not the world.
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:02 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
Buffer zone was needed for their protection and slow down potential enemy. There is no natural obstacle in the northern European plain.


So putin should have been able to maintain an “operation human shield” against their will so he wouldn’t have a tantrum? Well as it is right now he invaded that “human shield” and so if Ukraine capitulate, as you suggested, then what next, move the buffer zone away? Remove folks from NATO.

Why should russia get special treatment and be able to deny some countries freedoms afforded to others just so they can behave badly.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Well, read the res of what I wrote. Most of that was argued by many western politicians including people like Kennan, Kissinger etc.
If we would act better in the 90' we would not discuss the buffer zone. My opinion.

To paraphrase your question, why should USA get a special treatment and be able to deny some countries freedoms afforded to others just so they can behave badly?
The thing is, no one should. But don't preach to others about things you are doing too.

My last response to you as it seems you are focusing on out of context things and not on whole what I wrote.
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:07 pm

bikerthai wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
As for no desire of NATO to go to Ural. Well, maybe not now. But can happen ... Just that is not now, can change. At least that is realistic view on history.


:rotfl:

Just as realistic as Russia wanting Alaska back.

jaro76 wrote:
As for part of the society getting rich .. well, west helped to plunder Russian economy during Yeltsin times. We closed our collective eyes and let dirty money flow to the western banks. But that is for other discussions.

Just like the West plundering South Korea, Japan, Saudi Arabia etc.

At last you have just admit that it is your fault "We closed our collective eyes" . Do not punish Ukraine for that failure.

bt


I would like to read more about how west helped to build a huge group of oligarchs in South Korea, Japan, Saudi Arabia and closed the eyes when that money was flowing to western banks. Got some read about it?

As for my fault .. only as a member of EU/NATO now. In the 90' we were only on the way there. Slovakia... And also money plundered from here end up in western Europe. And till this day, I count it as failure on the West side. Especially UK and Switzerland. So now, I can't take seriously anything UK government spouting about fighting corruption, money laundering etc. Hope one day that will change.
But that is for other discussion.
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:09 pm

889091 wrote:
par13del wrote:
Aesma wrote:

I don't get what he intended by saying that. Saying it before the war, OK, it might make some countries hesitant. But saying it now that sanctions are already in place, and he hasn't started a nuclear holocaust in response, is useless.


Note also that he has not turned off his oil / gas exports and countries are still buying.


How are countries actually still paying for this? Gold bars? Serious question though.


AFAIK swift was only partly blocked and as of now, energy sector was excluded from sanctions. Slovakia received nuclear fuel deliver last week from Russia. So it is not only oil and gas that is not sanctioned.
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:15 pm

bikerthai wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
Now I think that passed and they should find a better way to go from communist rule to democracy than the shock and super corrupt times in the European ex communist block. Hope they succeed in that and keep their identity in the process.


I would agree that going from authoritarian to a democracy is very difficult. Sometimes it takes someone outside of political sphere to set it in motion. Chile have succeeded as has some Latin American countries while others are still "in work".

Ukraine was on its way with their actor/comedian president. Now this invasion has upended all that and may have given birth to a new hardline/anti-Russian society. The total opposite of what you are trying to avoid. Or maybe it is exactly what Putin wants, being a great tactician and all.

bt


I "enjoyed" that process on my own. Chile is one success once USA stopped messing with them. Hope there will be more of them.

There were always parts of Ukrainian society that were strongly anti Russian. After 2014 those get even stronger. To the degree where parliament and government was scared to even slightly offend them.
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:17 pm

johns624 wrote:
jaro76 wrote:

I'm saying that if we would get Russia into NATO in the 90', together with Baltics and Poland, they would be no paranoia in Russia and we would probably never have to deal with alienated Russia by now.
What makes you think that Russia would've wanted to be in NATO with the US controlling it?


Well, Yeltsin did want to join. 2 times afaik asking for it. Putin did too in 2001. So probably they were aware, that they would not be the king of the hill in NATO.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 26332
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:19 pm

Airport staffer waves with Ukrainian flag to Aeroflot at Tel Aviv airport

Image


https://twitter.com/itayblumental/statu ... 61797?s=21
 
jaro76
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:25 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
jaro76 wrote:

Abhorrent behavior in 1991-2002? Like what?

The cluster bombing of Chechen civilians?

Why would you limit it to the 1991-2002 period anyway? You think putin isn’t driven by anything from the Cold War? Hilarious!


Chechnya .. started in 1999. So well after Baltics and Poland joined NATO. Well after Yeltsin asked to join NATO 2 times.
AS for cluster bombs: https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukrai ... 8f65283921
Syrian government troops have often used cluster munitions — supplied by Russia -- against opposition strongholds during that country’s civil war, frequently hitting civilian targets and infrastructure.

Israel has used cluster bombs in civilian areas in south Lebanon, including during the 1982 invasion that saw Israeli troops reach the capital Beirut.

During the monthlong 2006 war with Hezbollah, Human Rights Watch and the United Nations accused Israel of firing as many as 4 million cluster munitions into Lebanon. That has left unexploded ordnance that threatens Lebanese civilians to this day.

The Saudi-led coalition in Yemen has been criticized for its use of cluster bombs in the war with the Iran-backed Houthi rebels that has ravaged the southern Arabian country.

In 2017, Yemen was the second deadliest country for cluster munitions after Syria, according to the U.N. Children have been killed or maimed long after the munitions originally fell, making it difficult to know the true toll.

The last large-scale American use of cluster bombs was during the 2003 Iraq invasion, according to the Pentagon. The U.S. initially considered cluster bombs an integral part of its arsenal during the invasion of Afghanistan that began in 2001, according to HRW. In the first three years, it is estimated the U.S.-led coalition dropped more than 1,500 cluster bombs in Afghanistan.


Why limit it till 2002? Because Putin came to power in 2001 and he asked to join NATO and was rejected. in 2002 USA withdraw from ABM treaty. That was a major step in altering stable situation around nuclear weapons between USA and Russia.


jaro76 wrote:
IMHO Finland was totally acceptable scenario for Russia.


WTF! You know who gets to decide Finnish military policy right? Ill give you a clue, it’s not the USA, it’s not the EU, it’s not NATO and it certainly isn’t Russia, it’s a country known as ‘Finland’. Finland can decide if they want it to be acceptable to Russia or they can decide to do formation flights spelling out the names of the spice girls. It’s. Up. To. Finland.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/quote]

Is it up to Cuba to host Russian nuclear weapons? Up to Venezuela?
Is it up to India to stay of this mess and do business with whoever they want?
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:27 pm

jaro76 wrote:
I would like to read more about how west helped to build a huge group of oligarchs in South Korea, Japan, Saudi Arabia and closed the eyes when that money was flowing to western banks. Got some read about it?


I have to admit, I get my sense of Korean oligarchs through Korean Drama and news head lines about Korean industry members abusing their status.

Not so much in tuned with Japanese oligarchs.

Saudi oligarchs are members of the establishments who got rich through oil and send their kids to study abroad where they can flaunt their wealth and break local rules only to be whisk back home to avoid punishment.

To me oligarchs are people to obtained vast riches through what ever method they use. We have our own oligarchs (Bezos, Gates, Musks are the latest). Its just how they use their wealth that distinguish the admirable from the rest.

And not all oligarchs are bad people.
Even Ukrainian oligarchs. :-)

bt
Last edited by bikerthai on Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4521
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:30 pm

jaro76 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
jaro76 wrote:
Buffer zone was needed for their protection and slow down potential enemy. There is no natural obstacle in the northern European plain.


So putin should have been able to maintain an “operation human shield” against their will so he wouldn’t have a tantrum? Well as it is right now he invaded that “human shield” and so if Ukraine capitulate, as you suggested, then what next, move the buffer zone away? Remove folks from NATO.

Why should russia get special treatment and be able to deny some countries freedoms afforded to others just so they can behave badly.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Well, read the res of what I wrote. Most of that was argued by many western politicians including people like Kennan, Kissinger etc.

The argument from authority….
jaro76 wrote:

If we would act better in the 90' we would not discuss the buffer zone. My opinion.

Yes, if you limit countries freedoms to make decisions you may well indeed be able to to form a world more pleasant for yourself. I could indeed make a sugar plantation that was more productive by limiting certain workers freedoms but somehow that isn’t acceptable. Maybe we ought to think about the rights and morals of those that are that buffer or human shield.
jaro76 wrote:

To paraphrase your question, why should USA get a special treatment and be able to deny some countries freedoms afforded to others just so they can behave badly?

They shouldn’t
jaro76 wrote:

The thing is, no one should. But don't preach to others about things you are doing too.

I’m not doing anything. I’m sat at home watching match of the day.

You seem to be under the impression that I am a US citizen, I am in fact British and do not need to be told about the horrors of invading and dehumanising behaviour as my countries history of flag erecting tours would point to. It is disgusting to remove someone else’s freedoms because it makes your life more comfortable.
jaro76 wrote:

My last response to you as it seems you are focusing on out of context things and not on whole what I wrote.
ya, you’ve basically said “if we’d pandered to them by limiting others freedoms they’d be nice” because that’s how dictators work ffs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:30 pm

Comparing sanctions to invasion as a punishment is problematic. Sanction can be a bully tactic, but all it is saying is we will not do business with you and will not do business with those who do business with you.
There is no forcible subjugation through military means.

bt
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4521
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:35 pm

jaro76 wrote:

Is it up to Cuba to host Russian nuclear weapons? Up to Venezuela?

Cuba and Venezuela can choose to do this if they so wish, as indeed Cuba did.
jaro76 wrote:
Is it up to India to stay of this mess and do business with whoever they want?
India, are free to choose whichever course of action they choose.

It’s like you don’t get how this freedom to choose works.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 5855
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:38 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
India, are free to choose whichever course of action they choose.


And it should say something when India more and more chose to do business with the West and less with Russia. Even before the is conflict.

bt
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1459
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:12 am

jaro76 wrote:
How far back we should go? That is a good question. In my opinion....


Replace "Russia" with "Putin" and your opinions start to make sense.

The median age of the Russian population is in the 30s. Getting on for 70% of the Russian population never knew the USSR - they were under 5 or not even a thought in their parents eyes in 1991.

I can't speak with absolute knowledge about the fears and paranoia of 144 million Russians and neither can you. You are talking about the paranoia of just a handful of men, all controlled by one.

You talk about the need for buffer zones without stopping for one moment to acknowledge what a buffer zone actually is. A meaningful collection of the world's population that cannot express their own politics through fear of angering their paranoid bully of a neighbour; a neighbour who cannot do anything but live in the past.

You would be happy to live in such a buffer zone? Russia is the largest country in the world by a huge margin. Almost twice the size of Canada, the US or China. Almost 30 times the size of France, which is itself a sizeable European nation.....

..... and yet they need a "buffer zone" ?
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:18 am

jaro76 - So the US decides that crazy (or inept) leaders in North Korea or Iran could launch a nuclear ballistic missiles against either the US or our Allies. Either on purpose or by mistake. Does the US preemptively attack those countries? Nope. The US believes the threat is real and tries to build a small ABM system that could stop maybe 3 or 4 missiles if we got really lucky. So to do that we have to opt out of a treaty.

I recall many stories at the time that US assured the Russians that this small ABM system was no deterrent to it's nuclear arsenal. And they did not believe us. Doesn't matter that the US hasn't gone on and expanded this ABM system. Russia's triad was never threatened .
Nope - facts just don't matter to Putin.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2996
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:02 am

The "buffer zone" is an idea that is fundamentally inseparable from Russian imperialism. Russia is no more entitled to one than France or Britain were to vast chunks of Africa. If Russia needs land between itself and its presumed enemies, why can't other nations demand the same? Shouldn't Poland and Ukraine get "buffer zones" too, seeing as they're also repeatedly-invaded countries on the steppes of Eastern Europe? What makes Russia so special here? Nothing but the fact that it's bigger than its neighbors. It's simply a flimsy rationalization to disguise aggression as self-defense, cloaking the most ancient law of foreign policy, "the strong do what they will, the weak suffer what they must."
Last edited by Newark727 on Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21700
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:03 am

This thread has been successfully derailed to discuss almost only why we shouldn't look at the suffering of the ukrainian people but instead only how the poor tyrant of Russia may have been troubled by not being sufficiently appeased.

But recent events especially since 2014 have thoroughly proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that appeasement was entirely counterproductive with Putin, and the world's response clearly demonstrates that this is now understood, at long last.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4521
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:03 am

Newark727 wrote:
The "buffer zone" is an idea that is fundamentally inseparable from Russian imperialism. Russia is no more entitled to one than France or Britain were to vast chunks of Africa. If Russia needs land between itself and its presumed enemies, why can't other nations demand the same? Shouldn't Poland and Ukraine get "buffer zones" too, seeing as they're also repeatedly-invaded countries on the steppes of Eastern Europe? What makes Russia so special here? Nothing but the fact that it's bigger than its neighbors. It's simply a flimsy rationalization for the most ancient law of foreign policy, "the strong do what they will, the weak suffer what they must."

Absolutely, you’d expect Russia being so big it could, if it was so important, create its own buffers.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Avatar2go, Baidu [Spider], bikerthai, Braybuddy, Google Adsense [Bot], luckyone, Noris, SL1200MK2 and 52 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos