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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:21 pm

11Bravo wrote:
It looks like artillery to me; probably 122mm or maybe even 120mm mortars.


That would explain the reported high casualty but low vehicle lost count.

Could also be a reconnaissance in force operation and not pressing an attack Or it could be the attack was in disarray as soon as the commander was killed.

Just speculating

bt
 
B717fan
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 3:32 pm

Russia just struck a village in Belarus.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/sta ... 6536657926
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:05 pm

william wrote:
ABCNews is reporting mercenaries are heading for Ukraine from Syria. Not good, not exactly nice men and women being unleashed on the civilian population.
They will be totally out of their element. I'm sure the Ukrainians won't deal nicely with them, either.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:07 pm

Desert people being dispatched to eastern Europe in late winter/early spring. That'll go well...
 
luckyone
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:12 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Desert people being dispatched to eastern Europe in late winter/early spring. That'll go well...

Not to mention the potential morale boost. Successful outcome or not, the largest country on earth and supposedly one of the biggest military powers had to resort to hired help.
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:27 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Aesma wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Sky News reporting that Russia has requested a meeting at the UN tomorrow where they will accuse
the USA of having biological labs in Ukraine . So it seems Russia is looking to use chemical weapons next !


Isn't that some Q conspiracy/antivax conspiracy that is now being used by Russia ? That the COVID was made in labs in Ukraine or some nonsense like that ?


No wonder China is jumping on it.
Useful narrative.


Question is WHY China is jumping on it. They also see a -so far- less than impressive Russian Army. What is their long term goal by getting cozier with Putin? So they think Putin will fail and they can pick up Russia?
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:28 pm

johns624 wrote:
william wrote:
ABCNews is reporting mercenaries are heading for Ukraine from Syria. Not good, not exactly nice men and women being unleashed on the civilian population.
They will be totally out of their element. I'm sure the Ukrainians won't deal nicely with them, either.

These regular Syrian mercenaries are..... shit. Sorry, what Russia only can and will grab in Syria is just the absolute shit what someone can get.
These are low motivated, bad trained staff. There are few good, highly motivated and regular bad and light equipped units/fractions but these will not leave, they will stay there and pretty sure, these will also not fight for the Russian site.
The few government units which are good, are the secret service (called "airforce" ground units, this has historical reasons), still these are secret service units) and some guard heavy units. These are needed by the Assad regime, especially when the Russian site will miserably fail and collapse in Ukraine, they will be needed, or someone will start to overrun the Assad site. And the rest of the governmental units are conscripts, and these only want to survive and none of them wants to support the government, they only tries to survive.

Sorry, but if these mercenaries will ever reach the Ukraine, there will be a new definition of cannon fodder.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:44 pm

T4thH wrote:
These are needed by the Assad regime, especially when the Russian site will miserably fail and collapse in Ukraine,


marcelh wrote:
Question is WHY China is jumping on it.


Very interesting ramification with many capitols around the world recalculating their economic relationship with Russia. Win or lose, Russia will spend the next decades or so rebuilding its economy and will be hobbled in it foreign adventures.

China may be looking to slide in as a benefactor for these states.

bt
 
M564038
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 4:46 pm

Yes. Experts on the radio here is saying express path means 2030 at the earliest
 
Cardude2
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:00 pm

marcelh wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Isn't that some Q conspiracy/antivax conspiracy that is now being used by Russia ? That the COVID was made in labs in Ukraine or some nonsense like that ?


No wonder China is jumping on it.
Useful narrative.


Question is WHY China is jumping on it. They also see a -so far- less than impressive Russian Army. What is their long term goal by getting cozier with Putin? So they think Putin will fail and they can pick up Russia?


no, so they can pick up Taiwan. Always has been their ultimate goal, just like Putin with Ukraine and the Baltics. But the harsh sanctions have put china temporarily off war with Taiwan for a bit, well see how long it lasts.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:01 pm

B717fan wrote:
Russia just struck a village in Belarus.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/sta ... 6536657926



Has this been confirmed at all? It would seem more likely that a Russian Jet crashed maybe?

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/10/politics ... index.html

The "vast majority" of the Russian-made fighter jets that NATO forces have seen entering Ukrainian airspace since Russia's invasion began have originated in Belarus, the NATO mission's technical director told CNN on board Thursday's flight. On one particularly "active" day last week, NATO forces saw about 20 Russian jets heading to Kyiv from Belarus, he said. The military aircraft taking off from Belarus and entering Ukrainian airspace have been in support of Russian military operations in Ukraine, the NATO airmen told CNN.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:06 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
But the harsh sanctions have put china temporarily off war with Taiwan for a bit, well see how long it lasts.


Of all the differences, the biggest difference between Ukranian and Taiwan is that the likelihood for the US to commit ground forces is much greater with Taiwan.

bt
 
luckyone
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:07 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

No wonder China is jumping on it.
Useful narrative.


Question is WHY China is jumping on it. They also see a -so far- less than impressive Russian Army. What is their long term goal by getting cozier with Putin? So they think Putin will fail and they can pick up Russia?


no, so they can pick up Taiwan. Always has been their ultimate goal, just like Putin with Ukraine and the Baltics. But the harsh sanctions have put china temporarily off war with Taiwan for a bit, well see how long it lasts.

Perhaps Taiwan. Definitely they're going to aim for a long supply of discounted Russian oil. They also have a vested interest in whatever advantages a potentially weakened Russia would mean for Chinese influence in the -stans.
 
leader1
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:10 pm

marcelh wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Isn't that some Q conspiracy/antivax conspiracy that is now being used by Russia ? That the COVID was made in labs in Ukraine or some nonsense like that ?


No wonder China is jumping on it.
Useful narrative.


Question is WHY China is jumping on it. They also see a -so far- less than impressive Russian Army. What is their long term goal by getting cozier with Putin? So they think Putin will fail and they can pick up Russia?


China and Russia have had a media deal since 2018.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d774e7851 ... are_p.html

So, not sure why anyone is surprised. They've been pushing Russian propaganda points throughout this war.

https://www.rferl.org/a/china-echoes-ru ... 45136.html

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/10/china/ch ... index.html

And this is nothing compared to what you see on Chinese social media (WeChat, Weibo, etc.). If you can read Chinese, check out the most popular topics and most of the comments regarding the war. Chinese social media is heavily censored and you see virtually no pro-Ukraine posts or comments. Gives you an idea where their loyalties lie.

bikerthai wrote:
Very interesting ramification with many capitols around the world recalculating their economic relationship with Russia. Win or lose, Russia will spend the next decades or so rebuilding its economy and will be hobbled in it foreign adventures.

China may be looking to slide in as a benefactor for these states.


China could have invested in these countries regardless of conflict or not. Indeed, that's what they've done in Central Asia (much to Russia's chagrin) and that wouldn't have been possible if today's chaos was around a few years ago. They'd prefer things to be much calmer.

Regarding Russia, the link is more ideological and not so much economics. Xi is much more of an ideologue compared to his previous three predecessors. Both Xi and Putin think the West is in decline and they're uniting on that front, nothing more. Xi probably thought the West's reaction would have been as united as it has been and that Ukraine would welcome Russian forces with open arms. Those misreads, coupled with Ukraine valiant fighting has taken China aback and they're trying to adjust to an ever shifting ground, something they're not used to and aren't equipped to handle. They can't deviate from their original Russian support, but it makes them look bad abroad, especially in Europe, if they double down on their original position.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:13 pm

I can only hope that the Ukrainian war has change the Chinese calculation enough to push back the Taiwan invasion by a few years if not more. Give time for the whole dynamic to change for the better.

bt
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:21 pm

Aesma wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Sky News reporting that Russia has requested a meeting at the UN tomorrow where they will accuse
the USA of having biological labs in Ukraine . So it seems Russia is looking to use chemical weapons next !


Isn't that some Q conspiracy/antivax conspiracy that is now being used by Russia ? That the COVID was made in labs in Ukraine or some nonsense like that ?


It’s gone more mainstream than that. Tucker Carlson etc are actively peddling it now.

Seems their intrinsic need to “pwn the Libs” seems to have pushed them into doing Russia’s bidding. It’s a bit bizarre, but it’s giving Putin the rift he’s looking for.

We know where the narrative goes from here - high oil prices and inflation were caused by Biden’s bad decision to sanction Russia for invading Ukraine.

“In an effort to argue that Ukraine is making biological weapons, Tucker Carlson cited an interview with a Pentagon official who – in that very interview – said the exact opposite of what the Fox News host told his audience the official had said.”

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/tucker-carl ... -opposite/
 
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N328KF
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:32 pm

Any thoughts as to why troublemakers from other parts of Russia (ie. Chechnya) are not taking advantage of this situation?
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:56 pm

leader1 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

No wonder China is jumping on it.
Useful narrative.


Question is WHY China is jumping on it. They also see a -so far- less than impressive Russian Army. What is their long term goal by getting cozier with Putin? So they think Putin will fail and they can pick up Russia?


China and Russia have had a media deal since 2018.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d774e7851 ... are_p.html

So, not sure why anyone is surprised. They've been pushing Russian propaganda points throughout this war.

https://www.rferl.org/a/china-echoes-ru ... 45136.html

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/10/china/ch ... index.html

And this is nothing compared to what you see on Chinese social media (WeChat, Weibo, etc.). If you can read Chinese, check out the most popular topics and most of the comments regarding the war. Chinese social media is heavily censored and you see virtually no pro-Ukraine posts or comments. Gives you an idea where their loyalties lie.

bikerthai wrote:
Very interesting ramification with many capitols around the world recalculating their economic relationship with Russia. Win or lose, Russia will spend the next decades or so rebuilding its economy and will be hobbled in it foreign adventures.

China may be looking to slide in as a benefactor for these states.


China could have invested in these countries regardless of conflict or not. Indeed, that's what they've done in Central Asia (much to Russia's chagrin) and that wouldn't have been possible if today's chaos was around a few years ago. They'd prefer things to be much calmer.

Regarding Russia, the link is more ideological and not so much economics. Xi is much more of an ideologue compared to his previous three predecessors. Both Xi and Putin think the West is in decline and they're uniting on that front, nothing more. Xi probably thought the West's reaction would have been as united as it has been and that Ukraine would welcome Russian forces with open arms. Those misreads, coupled with Ukraine valiant fighting has taken China aback and they're trying to adjust to an ever shifting ground, something they're not used to and aren't equipped to handle. They can't deviate from their original Russian support, but it makes them look bad abroad, especially in Europe, if they double down on their original position.


So sanction China also.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:20 pm

Regarding the Syrian mercenaries:

How easy is it to conceal Russian troop deaths from Russians?
How easy is to to conceal Syrian troop deaths from Russians?
How much do Russians care about Syrian troop deaths?

I imagine this is being done because, depsite how secretive the Russian government is being regarding casualties, the sheer amount of dead Russians is too hard to downplay. When it comes to Syrians, no Russian family will be wondering where a random Syrian and his hundred friends went, nor care.

Plus, if worst came to worst and war crimes are committed, they can just blame the Syrian troops. It would be a weak excuse, but don't for a second think Russian won't obsolve themselves of blame anyway (see MH17).
 
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Aesma
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:28 pm

marcelh wrote:
So sanction China also.


With COVID we already knew that we were too dependant on China, and vowed to change that, but not much has been done since then. Now it's even more evident, I hope something will be done, because cutting ourselves from China is basically impossible right now.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:43 pm

"EU leaders have announced their intention to collectively rearm and become autonomous in food, energy and military hardware in a Versailles declaration"

Or in Macron's words:
"We can see how our food, our energy, our defence are all issues of sovereignty. We want to be open to the world but we want to choose our partners and not depend on anybody."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ia-ukraine

Seems covid and Putin's war in Ukraine has made EU-nations rethink their future. Now let's see how long it lasts and what they manage to actually do.

Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas
Last edited by AirbusCheerlead on Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
luckyone
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
marcelh wrote:
So sanction China also.


With COVID we already knew that we were too dependant on China, and vowed to change that, but not much has been done since then. Now it's even more evident, I hope something will be done, because cutting ourselves from China is basically impossible right now.

Indeed. We are going to need to adjust our expectations. We're either going to need to expect to pay more for things, buy fewer consumables that we may not necessarily need, or both. Somehow that will likely also be the fault of the guy in charge due to the fact that they weren't able to magically reduce the higher cost labor necessary to produce things in a higher cost economy.
 
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OA260
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 6:46 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
"EU leaders have announced their intention to collectively rearm and become autonomous in food, energy and military hardware in a Versailles declaration"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ia-ukraine

Seems covid and Putin's war in Ukraine has made EU-nations rethink their future. Now let's see how long it lasts and what the manage to actually do.

Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas


Shame its taken this to make them see sense. Lets hope they really mean it and are prepared to actually do it. Time will tell.
 
luckyone
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:27 pm

OA260 wrote:
AirbusCheerlead wrote:
"EU leaders have announced their intention to collectively rearm and become autonomous in food, energy and military hardware in a Versailles declaration"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ia-ukraine

Seems covid and Putin's war in Ukraine has made EU-nations rethink their future. Now let's see how long it lasts and what the manage to actually do.

Best regards and stay safe,
Jonas


Shame its taken this to make them see sense. Lets hope they really mean it and are prepared to actually do it. Time will tell.

The crux is that at least in the States, the very same people who squawk about China are also the very same people who squawk about profits and being pro business etc etc. The business don't care about supporting American jobs if they can get it done cheaper elsewhere, and the very same consumer who squawks about China, business, and American jobs is also the very first person to bellyache about paying a higher price for something. Look no further than President Trump, whose family had a great many of their clothing products made in China, and whose daughter holds several Chinese trademarks.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:34 pm

The article in my previous post also touches on EU admission for Ukraine: no fast-track membership (Some eastern European countries will continue to push the idea).
Same link:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ia-ukraine

I think it's important that the EU is truthful to the Ukrainian people, they deserve nothing less. Telling them yes now and not deliver later would be insulting.
It is also a promise the EU actually can't give to the Ukrainian people. If I understand the rules for a new member correctly, all 27 members have to agree and some countries might even require a referendum (or some leaders could chose to hold one). And we have to remember that today's leaders might not be around anymore when the final decision will have to be made.

There are a few major hurdles the EU will have to take before the EU will be able to expand (will not expand further since it would be of topic).

But there are certainly some major steps that the EU could take relatively rapidly in order to show that EU membership is a serious offer to the Ukrainian people (if they the Ukrainians want them):
  • Fredom of movement (and possibly Schengen Area): with the actual rules on Ukrainian Refugees the EU has practicaly offered Fredom of movement to Ukrainian citizens for 3 years.
  • Customs Union: Turkey has a Bilateral customs unions with the EU. Giving
  • Single Market like Switzerland or Norway.

Of courses those proposal would also have to be given to Albania and the former Yougoslave states yet not member of the EU.

Best regards and hoping to see Ukraine in the EU soon (if they wish).
Jonas
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:37 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention only applies to actions between signatories of it.

So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:53 pm

par13del wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention only applies to actions between signatories of it.

So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?


Which POW actions by Ukraine are upsetting you?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:53 pm

par13del wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention only applies to actions between signatories of it.

So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?


I won't fault the Ukrainian one bit. What is the penalty of violating prisoners rights vs bombing a hospital?

The other question would be ethical vs procedural. If your opponent are not bound by the code, are you obligated to as well?

bt
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:01 pm

bikerthai wrote:
par13del wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention only applies to actions between signatories of it.

So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?


I won't fault the Ukrainian one bit. What is the penalty of violating prisoners rights vs bombing a hospital?

The other question would be ethical vs procedural. If your opponent are not bound by the code, are you obligated to as well?

bt

Hopefully they don't. Besides from the obvious moral standpoint, any sort of mistreatment of Russian POWs will only have extremely negative propaganda ramifications.

I've already seen a montage on Twitter of Ukrainians "mistreating" Russian POWs, and then it shows a bunch of Ukrainian POWs being treated well and fed decent food. Can't find the video

scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention only applies to actions between signatories of it.

So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?


Which POW actions by Ukraine are upsetting you?

I don't think he's objecting to anything, just asking if the rules apply to them
 
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william
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:05 pm

bikerthai wrote:
par13del wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention only applies to actions between signatories of it.

So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?


I won't fault the Ukrainian one bit. What is the penalty of violating prisoners rights vs bombing a hospital?

The other question would be ethical vs procedural. If your opponent are not bound by the code, are you obligated to as well?

bt


Wait till till they meet the hired mercenaries...........I am sure they are up on their Geneva Code.
 
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william
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:07 pm

marcelh wrote:
leader1 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Question is WHY China is jumping on it. They also see a -so far- less than impressive Russian Army. What is their long term goal by getting cozier with Putin? So they think Putin will fail and they can pick up Russia?


China and Russia have had a media deal since 2018.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d774e7851 ... are_p.html

So, not sure why anyone is surprised. They've been pushing Russian propaganda points throughout this war.

https://www.rferl.org/a/china-echoes-ru ... 45136.html

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/10/china/ch ... index.html

And this is nothing compared to what you see on Chinese social media (WeChat, Weibo, etc.). If you can read Chinese, check out the most popular topics and most of the comments regarding the war. Chinese social media is heavily censored and you see virtually no pro-Ukraine posts or comments. Gives you an idea where their loyalties lie.

bikerthai wrote:
Very interesting ramification with many capitols around the world recalculating their economic relationship with Russia. Win or lose, Russia will spend the next decades or so rebuilding its economy and will be hobbled in it foreign adventures.

China may be looking to slide in as a benefactor for these states.


China could have invested in these countries regardless of conflict or not. Indeed, that's what they've done in Central Asia (much to Russia's chagrin) and that wouldn't have been possible if today's chaos was around a few years ago. They'd prefer things to be much calmer.

Regarding Russia, the link is more ideological and not so much economics. Xi is much more of an ideologue compared to his previous three predecessors. Both Xi and Putin think the West is in decline and they're uniting on that front, nothing more. Xi probably thought the West's reaction would have been as united as it has been and that Ukraine would welcome Russian forces with open arms. Those misreads, coupled with Ukraine valiant fighting has taken China aback and they're trying to adjust to an ever shifting ground, something they're not used to and aren't equipped to handle. They can't deviate from their original Russian support, but it makes them look bad abroad, especially in Europe, if they double down on their original position.


So sanction China also.


As you type on your made in China, computer, smartphone, and Tesla.
 
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william
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:09 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Regarding the Syrian mercenaries:

How easy is it to conceal Russian troop deaths from Russians?
How easy is to to conceal Syrian troop deaths from Russians?
How much do Russians care about Syrian troop deaths?

I imagine this is being done because, depsite how secretive the Russian government is being regarding casualties, the sheer amount of dead Russians is too hard to downplay. When it comes to Syrians, no Russian family will be wondering where a random Syrian and his hundred friends went, nor care.

Plus, if worst came to worst and war crimes are committed, they can just blame the Syrian troops. It would be a weak excuse, but don't for a second think Russian won't obsolve themselves of blame anyway (see MH17).


I am afraid that is it. And I bet it doesn't stop with Syrians. I am sure there are other nationalities in that group too.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:11 pm

 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:22 pm

scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention only applies to actions between signatories of it.

So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?


Which POW actions by Ukraine are upsetting you?

Irrelevant, the issue is whether it violates the convention.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:23 pm

william wrote:
computer, smartphone, and Tesla.


My Tesla was assembled in California and my phone was assembled in Vietnam :wink2: My computer was assembled by my brother, probably with Chinese components. :rotfl:

It's Friday and I'm ready for the weekend.

bt
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:25 pm

bikerthai wrote:
par13del wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention only applies to actions between signatories of it.

So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?


I won't fault the Ukrainian one bit. What is the penalty of violating prisoners rights vs bombing a hospital?

The other question would be ethical vs procedural. If your opponent are not bound by the code, are you obligated to as well?

bt

Slippery slope, if the Ukrainians know the hospital where wounded Russian soldiers are being treated, are they justified to bomb / shell because of what took place at the maternity hospital?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:27 pm

par13del wrote:
scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?


Which POW actions by Ukraine are upsetting you?

Irrelevant, the issue is whether it violates the convention.


If their opponent isn’t bound by it and is happy to kill babies when adopting their usual habit of bombing hospitals, you’re in a very small minority if you care about Russian POWs.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:33 pm

Well I guess either the Ukrainians are not taking more prisoners or they were scolded enough to stop showing videos of POWs.

Hopefully the Russian will take the clue and stop shelling hospital and evacuation sites.

We can only hope. . .

bt
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:41 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Well I guess either the Ukrainians are not taking more prisoners or they were scolded enough to stop showing videos of POWs.
bt

Which is the way it should be, we should not be judging the Ukrainians or asking them to conduct themselves based on Russian standards.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:57 pm

Russia couldn’t complain about treatment anyway, I’m not sure there are any rules for POSMA (Prisoners of special military action).

Fred


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sabenapilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:05 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
The article in my previous post also touches on EU admission for Ukraine: no fast-track membership (Some eastern European countries will continue to push the idea).
Same link:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ia-ukraine

I think it's important that the EU is truthful to the Ukrainian people, they deserve nothing less. Telling them yes now and not deliver later would be insulting.
It is also a promise the EU actually can't give to the Ukrainian people. If I understand the rules for a new member correctly, all 27 members have to agree and some countries might even require a referendum (or some leaders could chose to hold one). And we have to remember that today's leaders might not be around anymore when the final decision will have to be made.

There are a few major hurdles the EU will have to take before the EU will be able to expand (will not expand further since it would be of topic).

But there are certainly some major steps that the EU could take relatively rapidly in order to show that EU membership is a serious offer to the Ukrainian people (if they the Ukrainians want them):
  • Fredom of movement (and possibly Schengen Area): with the actual rules on Ukrainian Refugees the EU has practicaly offered Fredom of movement to Ukrainian citizens for 3 years.
  • Customs Union: Turkey has a Bilateral customs unions with the EU. Giving
  • Single Market like Switzerland or Norway.

Of courses those proposal would also have to be given to Albania and the former Yougoslave states yet not member of the EU.

Best regards and hoping to see Ukraine in the EU soon (if they wish).
Jonas


As the UK discovered during Brexit negotiations, the EU is very much a rules-based organisation; you can't just pick what you like from the menu without strictly complying in full to the entire rulebook governing the freedom, even if it is just one or two of the set of four freedoms that together make up what the EU is all about.

Ukraine is welcome to join in any of the things you mention, but it will first have to comply in full with all the rules required to do so and that means not just adopting tons of EU legislation, but also putting in place the robust organisation, political structures and legal oversight to make everything and everybody in Ukraine as well as entering Ukraine comply with EU rules. In the current situation, this is just not possible of course.
If Ukraine would have been a Schengen member right now, it would have to be suspended because it is obviously not in any position to enfore immigration rules at its borders. It's why Cyprus isn't in Schengen either: no control over (part of) its point of entries and thus external EU borders.

The fact the Ukrainian government very actively pushed for a non-existing fast track procedure actually gives away the leadership isn't fuly grasping the extend of EU integration and what it takes to make it function. Being an EU memberstate is having far more consequenses than being a NATO memberstate on the daily operation of a country (at least in peace time): Ukraine simply can not deliver the minimum standards required to participate in what effectively is shared sovereignty right now and would simply make the EU grind to a halt.
Last edited by sabenapilot on Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:19 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:06 pm

Mercenaries aren't really protected by the Geneva Accords.
 
tomcat
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:09 pm

GDB wrote:


They'll first face a rain of rockets and heavy bombardments from artillery not to mention the possible thermobaric weapons. How many of these people will still be alive before the tanks will be moving in the rubbles of the city? Is there any street fighting in the cities that the Russian army has already taken?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:22 pm

par13del wrote:
ChrisKen wrote:
Hate to break it to you but the Geneva convention only applies to actions between signatories of it.

So all the actions by Ukraine with their POW's are sanctioned by the Geneva Convention?


No. If it gets to a tribunal they'll get told off and get a strong warning.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:44 pm

tomcat wrote:
GDB wrote:


They'll first face a rain of rockets and heavy bombardments from artillery not to mention the possible thermobaric weapons. How many of these people will still be alive before the tanks will be moving in the rubbles of the city? Is there any street fighting in the cities that the Russian army has already taken?


While they are not likely to reveal much to media, my guess would be to disperse to the outling areas of the city, at the end of the day, boots on the ground are the only way to capture a city, the Russians seem to be copying the German tactics for Stalingrad ironically.
They levelled that city too.
But yes, they will take heavy losses.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:29 pm

tomcat wrote:
How many of these people will still be alive before the tanks will be moving in the rubbles of the city? Is there any street fighting in the cities that the Russian army has already taken?


The problem with city rubble is it impedes the movement of tanks. Center Kyiv has underground metro that will survive the bombing. Not sure about the suburb.

The city that fell was not aggressively defended as the troop there were forced to pull out to prevent being cut off.

The Russian should know well about fighting in a contested bombed out city - Berlin 1945. If they can not surround Kyiv and starve the city, they will not have enough troops to take the city.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:43 pm

Uh Oh, gonna be hard to prosecute the war when you're busy trying to keep your head.


bt
 
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Aesma
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:50 pm

The more Russians he can blame for the cockup, the more likely he is to give up the invasion, so it's good news.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:53 am

T4thH wrote:
johns624 wrote:
william wrote:
ABCNews is reporting mercenaries are heading for Ukraine from Syria. Not good, not exactly nice men and women being unleashed on the civilian population.
They will be totally out of their element. I'm sure the Ukrainians won't deal nicely with them, either.

These regular Syrian mercenaries are..... shit. Sorry, what Russia only can and will grab in Syria is just the absolute shit what someone can get.
These are low motivated, bad trained staff. There are few good, highly motivated and regular bad and light equipped units/fractions but these will not leave, they will stay there and pretty sure, these will also not fight for the Russian site.
The few government units which are good, are the secret service (called "airforce" ground units, this has historical reasons), still these are secret service units) and some guard heavy units. These are needed by the Assad regime, especially when the Russian site will miserably fail and collapse in Ukraine, they will be needed, or someone will start to overrun the Assad site. And the rest of the governmental units are conscripts, and these only want to survive and none of them wants to support the government, they only tries to survive.

Sorry, but if these mercenaries will ever reach the Ukraine, there will be a new definition of cannon fodder.

If they don't decide to take the opportunity to defect first and request asylum in a Western country.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:31 am

Not going well for the Russians ...



Russian soldiers from the Kirkenes brigade are said to have been killed in Ukraine

Russian forces, which are usually stationed just a few tens of kilometers from the border with Norway, have suffered heavy losses during the attack on Ukraine, according to the Ukrainian defense.

On Monday this week, the Ukrainian defense announced that Russian Lieutenant Colonel Dmitry Safronov had been killed. This is said to have happened in connection with fierce fighting around Chuhujiv east of Kharkiv.

Safronov led soldiers from Russia's 61st Marine Regiment. They are based in the garrison town of Sputnik east of Petsjengadalen, which is located just off the border with Norway in Sør-Varanger.

The regiment bears the name "Kirkenes", commemorating the Soviet liberation of East Finnmark in 1944.

The Ukrainian news agency Ukrinform reports that the 200th Motorized Infantry Brigade has also suffered heavy losses in connection with the fighting around Sumy and Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine.

This unit is located even closer to the border with Norway, not far from the monastery in Petsjengadalen.

Norwegian expert confirms

One of the units of the Pechenga Brigade is said to be more or less wiped out in the fighting against the Ukrainian forces.

The losses of the brigade from the border area with Norway have not been confirmed by Russia.

But Lieutenant Colonel Geir Hågen Karlsen at the Norwegian Defense College tells NRK that they have registered what he describes as "significant losses" in the departments that are usually located near the border with Norway.

The losses concern both dead and captured soldiers, but first and foremost in equipment. Karlsen emphasizes that this has not been 100 percent verified

Finnish Chief of Defense confirms

According to YLE, the Finnish Chief of Defense Timo Kivinen confirmed earlier this week that a significant part of the forces that are normally in the border areas with Norway and Finland, are now in Ukraine.

The large Russian losses have not been confirmed by the Russian side, although there are now reports circulating on social media that many soldiers and officers are returning in what is called Gods 200, coffins.

The Finnish journalist Jarmo Huhtanen is closely following the information that is now coming from the war zones in Ukraine. He writes that the Petsjenga brigade has lost some of the most modern equipment they have, intended for war in Arctic areas.

Often used in war

It is not new that units in the Russian defense from the border area with Norway are used in conflicts where Russia is involved.

Soldiers from the navy participated in the Second Chechen War, where they suffered heavy losses against the Chechen rebels.

There is a large memorial to those who fell in Chechnya just off the road between Kirkenes and Murmansk.

Eastern Ukraine and Syria

The Marines are also said to have taken part in the fighting in eastern Ukraine in 2014. Parts of the Marines from Petsjenga are said to be in Crimea, which Russia annexed in 2014, according to the Dumskaya website.

In 2016, they took part in the recapture of the Syrian city of Palmyra, which has been possible to document through photos that the soldiers themselves have posted on social media.

https://www.nrk.no/urix/russiske-soldat ... 1.15885907

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