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N14AZ
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:30 am

wingman wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Does anyone still think Russia’s leader is sane? Today’s speech is textbook despot:

https://twitter.com/just_whatever/statu ... 57762?s=21


Holy crap. That dude is off his nut. That speech sounds like it was lifted straight from Geobbels' 1937 speech drafts to Adolf.

I read that he announced increasing pensions and social benefits. That’s the right direction: it’s exactly what Ceaucescu did in his last speech, minutes before the revolution started.
 
AeroVega
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:33 am

IceCream wrote:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/few-facts-much-speculation-as-explosions-heard-in-belarus/
Does anyone have any ideas/speculation as to what this could be?


The Ukrainians thought that the Russians were going to bomb a Belarusian village a few days ago as a false flag operation.

https://www.politico.eu/article/belarus ... es-weaves/

Ukrainians are not going to do anything to escalate the situation.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:37 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Are NATO assets able to help find Russian missile and artillery batteries in real time?

E-8s and rivet joints of NATO forces regularly (constant presence) flying along the Ukraine and Belarusian borders. They are no doubt feeding this information to Ukrainian forces and are likely part of the huge success they are having against the Russians.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:57 am

T4thH wrote:
Regarding the Drama Theatre, that has been bombed by the Russian Airfoce (so according other news, it seems, it was not a balistic missile). The Ukranian have rreally tried to help Russia to commit the warcrime. Below is a satellite image from today, the white painted words in front and back of the building are the word "children" in Russian language.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FN_wp_GXEAMKYdt?format=jpg&name=large
Perhaps some of you have heard of the story of a little girl, who was wounded at the left hand and they were only able to bring her to hospital days later, they had to amputate the left arm?
She is down there in the hospital in the shelter below the Drama Theater.


Seems there are some good news. The shelter/bunker below the Drama Theater with the hospital seems to have survived. After they have cleaned the entrances of the bunker, survivors were able to leave the bunker. (But if the hospital in the bunker is not destroyed/stays on duty, Russia will of course bomb the bunker again).

Source is in German:
https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Vor-Theater-in-Mariupol-war-Kinder-zu-lesen-article23202470.html

Let us hope, there was no one in the building itself, because there will not be any survivor. I have seen many pictures, that also the upper building was full with civilians during the non air-warning times... To let the children play and that they had not to stay the whole time in the small rooms of the bunker below.
Last edited by T4thH on Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:00 am

lightsaber wrote:
cpd wrote:
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/russia-rains-fire-on-kyiv-as-zelensky-pleads-for-us-to-do-more-20220317-p5a5bn.html

It’s said that Russian negotiators want Ukraine to have a smaller non aligned military. Why? So they can crush Ukraine easier?

Russia is the aggressor- the one invading. Ukraine needs a stronger military to be able to deter Russia.

Right now Russia doesn’t face any physical damages for its actions. It’s people don’t have their houses bombed, etc.

Ukraine cannot agree to any military size nor equipment restrictions.


They can as long it is a percentage of what Russia has.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:27 am

NSFW

Just another day for Russian armour. Frankly, I’m surprised anyone managed to get out of this alive. The ‘debris’ hitting the road at the end is what’s left of an occupant of another tank that was also destroyed further up the road!

https://youtu.be/fngPVC4V4Gk
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:17 am

What is that tank doing all alone in the middle of the city? Is it lost? Where is the infantry support? Feel sorry for the driver. Hope he survived. Looks like he got hit and was trying to craw away.

bt
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:25 am

bikerthai wrote:
What is that tank doing all alone in the middle of the city? Is it lost? Where is the infantry support? Feel sorry for the driver. Hope he survived. Looks like he got hit and was trying to craw away.

bt


Although we can not get the full picture from footage of a single incident, there have been a lot of them, this has been a feature of the Russians since day one, small numbers of AFVs in urban areas unsupported. It’s a basic error, familiar to any WW2 combatant.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:36 am

So if the Russian manage to get in to the cities, it becomes an infrantry battle and apparently they do not have sufficient infrantry, and what infrantry they have may be reluctant to or not properly trained for urban combat.

An do they can try and flatten the cities, but perhaps soon, we will hear that they will be running out of ammo as well.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:45 am

Mortyman wrote:
Japan:

Russian warships heading west

The Japanese Ministry of Defense reports on Twitter that they have observed four new Russian warships heading west. These passed through the Tsugaru Strait, in northern Japan.

Two of the ships passed through the strait on Tuesday, while two more were observed on Wednesday.

The ships appear to be carrying munitions, including a number of military vehicles.

"The Ministry of Defense will continue to monitor the situation and the movements of the Russian armed forces with high vigilance," the ministry said in a statement.

When asked if the ships could be on their way to Ukraine, the ministry answers according to the BBC:

- It is possible.

Several intelligence reports have recently drawn a picture that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not going as planned - although Russia has repeatedly claimed the opposite. Among other things, the Russian forces will lack equipment and ammunition.



https://twitter.com/jointstaffpa/status ... hetsdognet

https://direkte.vg.no/nyhetsdognet/news ... hetsdognet


There seems not to be enough equipment on those ships to make a difference.

Will they be allowed to go through the Suez? Would it take a month for the ships to get to Ukraine?

Are their home port in the Black Sea? If not will Turkey allow them to transit?

Wouldn't it be faster to ship the equipment by rail?

Lots of questions.

bt
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:51 am

Mortyman wrote:
Japan:

Russian warships heading west

The Japanese Ministry of Defense reports on Twitter that they have observed four new Russian warships heading west. These passed through the Tsugaru Strait, in northern Japan.

Two of the ships passed through the strait on Tuesday, while two more were observed on Wednesday.

The ships appear to be carrying munitions, including a number of military vehicles.

"The Ministry of Defense will continue to monitor the situation and the movements of the Russian armed forces with high vigilance," the ministry said in a statement.

When asked if the ships could be on their way to Ukraine, the ministry answers according to the BBC:

- It is possible.

Several intelligence reports have recently drawn a picture that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not going as planned - although Russia has repeatedly claimed the opposite. Among other things, the Russian forces will lack equipment and ammunition.



https://twitter.com/jointstaffpa/status ... hetsdognet

https://direkte.vg.no/nyhetsdognet/news ... hetsdognet

So no cross country Russian rail network?
Interesting if they have to ship supplies by sea.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:05 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
cpd wrote:
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/russia-rains-fire-on-kyiv-as-zelensky-pleads-for-us-to-do-more-20220317-p5a5bn.html

It’s said that Russian negotiators want Ukraine to have a smaller non aligned military. Why? So they can crush Ukraine easier?

Russia is the aggressor- the one invading. Ukraine needs a stronger military to be able to deter Russia.

Right now Russia doesn’t face any physical damages for its actions. It’s people don’t have their houses bombed, etc.

Ukraine cannot agree to any military size nor equipment restrictions.


They can as long it is a percentage of what Russia has.

Best regards
Thomas

I disagree. Ukraine agreeing to any military limits is a country to be conquered at a future date.
Russia doesn't keep their promises anyway. Remember returning nukes for promises of boarder security? Yep...

This is a quagmire that won't end soon.
Lightsaber
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:13 pm

scbriml wrote:
NSFW

Just another day for Russian armour. Frankly, I’m surprised anyone managed to get out of this alive. The ‘debris’ hitting the road at the end is what’s left of an occupant of another tank that was also destroyed further up the road!

https://youtu.be/fngPVC4V4Gk


Footage like this is utterly tragic - I only hope it is being seen and understood back home by ordinary Russians. These are sons, partners and fathers, being sent by a madman to be slaughtered by a substantially better organised and more motivated opponent. Those dead will likely never be recovered, there will be no true closure for the families. If ordinary Russians realised this, I can't help but feel there would immutable anger at what their government is doing.
 
tomcat
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:35 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
scbriml wrote:
NSFW

Just another day for Russian armour. Frankly, I’m surprised anyone managed to get out of this alive. The ‘debris’ hitting the road at the end is what’s left of an occupant of another tank that was also destroyed further up the road!

https://youtu.be/fngPVC4V4Gk


Footage like this is utterly tragic - I only hope it is being seen and understood back home by ordinary Russians. These are sons, partners and fathers, being sent by a madman to be slaughtered by a substantially better organised and more motivated opponent. Those dead will likely never be recovered, there will be no true closure for the families. If ordinary Russians realised this, I can't help but feel there would immutable anger at what their government is doing.


I've just localized where this action took place. The tank was driving west then made a right turn into Budivel'nykiv Ave and terminated its course in front of the number 123:
https://goo.gl/maps/9ZXijJbZrTqGmu2b8
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:47 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
scbriml wrote:
NSFW

Just another day for Russian armour. Frankly, I’m surprised anyone managed to get out of this alive. The ‘debris’ hitting the road at the end is what’s left of an occupant of another tank that was also destroyed further up the road!

https://youtu.be/fngPVC4V4Gk


Footage like this is utterly tragic - I only hope it is being seen and understood back home by ordinary Russians. These are sons, partners and fathers, being sent by a madman to be slaughtered by a substantially better organised and more motivated opponent. Those dead will likely never be recovered, there will be no true closure for the families. If ordinary Russians realised this, I can't help but feel there would immutable anger at what their government is doing.


Watching the BBC TV news last night, Steve Rosenberg (who speaks fluent Russian) was interviewing a man in the street (I would estimate he was around 60). He basically just parroted the party line about brave Russian soldiers liberating Ukraine from tyranny, and called Putin a hero. I spent quite a bit of time working in Moscow a few years ago and my overall impression was that younger people were much more clued up about the real World than the older generations who would never doubt anything their government told them. My concern is that outside of the main cities, how many average Russians really have any idea about what's being done in their name?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:47 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
scbriml wrote:
NSFW

Just another day for Russian armour. Frankly, I’m surprised anyone managed to get out of this alive. The ‘debris’ hitting the road at the end is what’s left of an occupant of another tank that was also destroyed further up the road!

https://youtu.be/fngPVC4V4Gk


Footage like this is utterly tragic - I only hope it is being seen and understood back home by ordinary Russians. These are sons, partners and fathers, being sent by a madman to be slaughtered by a substantially better organised and more motivated opponent. Those dead will likely never be recovered, there will be no true closure for the families. If ordinary Russians realised this, I can't help but feel there would immutable anger at what their government is doing.

I might be wrong, but does this video show a man crawling away with only one arm left?
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:48 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
scbriml wrote:
NSFW

Just another day for Russian armour. Frankly, I’m surprised anyone managed to get out of this alive. The ‘debris’ hitting the road at the end is what’s left of an occupant of another tank that was also destroyed further up the road!

https://youtu.be/fngPVC4V4Gk


Footage like this is utterly tragic - I only hope it is being seen and understood back home by ordinary Russians. These are sons, partners and fathers, being sent by a madman to be slaughtered by a substantially better organised and more motivated opponent. Those dead will likely never be recovered, there will be no true closure for the families. If ordinary Russians realised this, I can't help but feel there would immutable anger at what their government is doing.


Was thinking exacly the same.

The 'debris' is somebody's son, somebody's husband, sombody's father, who just happened to be sent on military exercises near the Ukrainian border, only to get marching orders on an unfortunate morning because some madman in the Kremlin want to become "Vladimir the Great" and thus came to invent a thread which had to be stopped.

Next thing you now and you drive your tank into some completely unknown town, cut off from crucial infantery support which was somehow missed by the planners in Moscow, just as food and fuel rations were omitted too. Your batalion leader probably isn't the smartest too, since he decides to drive all tanks closely together on the main roads in order to advance faster and feel a safer, thus effectively turning you and your tank into an easy target to be hit from all sides as well as from the air, because guess what, after 3 weeks Vladimir the Great's airforce still hasn't gained air superiority, but the plan calls for troops to advance over land regardless.

And then, your tank is hit like so many others before you, which you've problably seen burning next to the roads you've travelled going into this town.

If you're lucky you can just about manage to get out of your smoking tank before it explodes and hide behind the guardrails, not knowing how you will ever get home to your family alive who doesn't even know where you are right now, let alone understand the mess your army is in... or, if you're as unlucky as that crewmember of the tank which drove in front of you, you are litterally catapulted out of your exploding tank, feel how one leg is torn off in flight and then pretty much squash into the asphalt some 50 meters from your tank, abuptly ending your life there in the middle of some irrelevant Ukrainian road where until a couple of weeks ago nobody ever thought you'd ever go to.

No wonder Russian propaganda doesn't want these things to be seen and strickly controls all TV broadcasts and the internet.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:17 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
scbriml wrote:
NSFW

Just another day for Russian armour. Frankly, I’m surprised anyone managed to get out of this alive. The ‘debris’ hitting the road at the end is what’s left of an occupant of another tank that was also destroyed further up the road!

https://youtu.be/fngPVC4V4Gk


Footage like this is utterly tragic - I only hope it is being seen and understood back home by ordinary Russians. These are sons, partners and fathers, being sent by a madman to be slaughtered by a substantially better organised and more motivated opponent. Those dead will likely never be recovered, there will be no true closure for the families. If ordinary Russians realised this, I can't help but feel there would immutable anger at what their government is doing.


Was thinking exacly the same.

The 'debris' is somebody's son, somebody's husband, sombody's father, who just happened to be sent on military exercises near the Ukrainian border, only to get marching orders on an unfortunate morning because some madman in the Kremlin want to become "Vladimir the Great" and thus came to invent a thread which had to be stopped.

Next thing you now and you drive your tank into some completely unknown town, cut off from crucial infantery support which was somehow missed by the planners in Moscow, just as food and fuel rations were omitted too. Your batalion leader probably isn't the smartest too, since he decides to drive all tanks closely together on the main roads in order to advance faster and feel a safer, thus effectively turning you and your tank into an easy target to be hit from all sides as well as from the air, because guess what, after 3 weeks Vladimir the Great's airforce still hasn't gained air superiority, but the plan calls for troops to advance over land regardless.

And then, your tank is hit like so many others before you, which you've problably seen burning next to the roads you've travelled going into this town.

If you're lucky you can just about manage to get out of your smoking tank before it explodes and hide behind the guardrails, not knowing how you will ever get home to your family alive who doesn't even know where you are right now, let alone understand the mess your army is in... or, if you're as unlucky as that crewmember of the tank which drove in front of you, you are litterally catapulted out of your exploding tank, feel how one leg is torn off in flight and then pretty much squash into the asphalt some 50 meters from your tank, abuptly ending your life there in the middle of some irrelevant Ukrainian road where until a couple of weeks ago nobody ever thought you'd ever go to.

No wonder Russian propaganda doesn't want these things to be seen and strickly controls all TV broadcasts and the internet.


You can always stop and surrender. Jail is always better than being a murderer.
As soon as you fired even one bullet you're part of it.
 
hh65man
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:20 pm

scbriml:
Also watch at the :22 second mark it looks like the commander being blown sky high out of the turret hatch… or what’s left of him. It’s a bit gross to watch and realise what’s happening.
Last edited by hh65man on Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:22 pm

GDB wrote:
Finland has some BUK SAMs, in storage since the 90’s, the Ukrainians use them too, to counter night bombing. Could they be made available?


The answer is no. Finland stays out of this war militarily. Only send some old rifles and small amount of bullets. Russia can harass Finland many ways. So Finland needs to be careful what to do.
 
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IceCream
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:33 pm

Thank you for everyone's responses, I learnt a lot. I would assume if it was something major we would hear something about it by now.
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:42 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
Ukraine should not capitulate so soon, even if that's what the West, Israel, and Russia want. The Russians are bogged down, and with anti-tank and anti-aircraft support, the Ukrainians should be able slaughter more of the Russian Army. Decimate them.

Ukraine needs Iron Dome, BUKs, and the like. Ukraine is being transferred SA-8s, SA-10s, SA-12s, and SA-14s with range all better than Stingers. It's a real shame we can't get them Iron Dome around Kyiv and Lviv.


While I like to see Russian army destroyed more we must remember that everyday this war continues more Russian conscripts die as well as Ukrainians. Also more of Ukraine is destroyed and it will mean longer time to rebuild and people to get back home. So I hope this war end as soon as possible.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:54 pm

scbriml wrote:
interviewing a man in the street (I would estimate he was around 60). He basically just parroted the party line about brave Russian soldiers liberating Ukraine from tyranny, and called Putin a hero.


There could be another explanation.

I never lived under a totalitarian state but hear stories of my mom communicating via letters to the old country. There were a lot of cryptic messages behind the surface comment.

Being 60+ he would be familiar with the old ways where you keep your true opinion to yourself.

The younger generation may not have that defense mechanism drilled into their heads.

bt
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:55 pm

THS214 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Ukraine should not capitulate so soon, even if that's what the West, Israel, and Russia want. The Russians are bogged down, and with anti-tank and anti-aircraft support, the Ukrainians should be able slaughter more of the Russian Army. Decimate them.

Ukraine needs Iron Dome, BUKs, and the like. Ukraine is being transferred SA-8s, SA-10s, SA-12s, and SA-14s with range all better than Stingers. It's a real shame we can't get them Iron Dome around Kyiv and Lviv.


While I like to see Russian army destroyed more we must remember that everyday this war continues more Russian conscripts die as well as Ukrainians. Also more of Ukraine is destroyed and it will mean longer time to rebuild and people to get back home. So I hope this war end as soon as possible.


Give them enough weapons to make the dying one sided.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:00 pm

tomcat wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
scbriml wrote:
NSFW

Just another day for Russian armour. Frankly, I’m surprised anyone managed to get out of this alive. The ‘debris’ hitting the road at the end is what’s left of an occupant of another tank that was also destroyed further up the road!

https://youtu.be/fngPVC4V4Gk


Footage like this is utterly tragic - I only hope it is being seen and understood back home by ordinary Russians. These are sons, partners and fathers, being sent by a madman to be slaughtered by a substantially better organised and more motivated opponent. Those dead will likely never be recovered, there will be no true closure for the families. If ordinary Russians realised this, I can't help but feel there would immutable anger at what their government is doing.


I've just localized where this action took place. The tank was driving west then made a right turn into Budivel'nykiv Ave and terminated its course in front of the number 123:
https://goo.gl/maps/9ZXijJbZrTqGmu2b8



Right next to the Vape shop which is temporary closed. The universe can be cruel but also has some humor.

bt
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:24 pm

THS214 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Ukraine should not capitulate so soon, even if that's what the West, Israel, and Russia want. The Russians are bogged down, and with anti-tank and anti-aircraft support, the Ukrainians should be able slaughter more of the Russian Army. Decimate them.

Ukraine needs Iron Dome, BUKs, and the like. Ukraine is being transferred SA-8s, SA-10s, SA-12s, and SA-14s with range all better than Stingers. It's a real shame we can't get them Iron Dome around Kyiv and Lviv.


While I like to see Russian army destroyed more we must remember that everyday this war continues more Russian conscripts die as well as Ukrainians. Also more of Ukraine is destroyed and it will mean longer time to rebuild and people to get back home. So I hope this war end as soon as possible.

Ukraine has a choice, risk death or be under a totalitarian state. They must fight. There are only a few ways this ends:
1. Ukrainians accept being a subjugated people under a totalitarian state. This is a horrid outcome I hope doesn't happen.
2. Russia withdrawals. This is unlikely until the pain for Russia increase (more sanctions, more casualties).
3. The continues for years as a quagmire. See Afghanistan (Russia and USA).

Zalenskyy frames this as a patriotic war. I happen to agree.
https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/ ... eshow.html

There is only one acceptable solution, that is for Russia to withdrawal and pay reparations.

Lightsaber
 
Dogman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:24 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Feel sorry for the driver. Hope he survived.

bt


How kind of you.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:31 pm

Dogman wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Feel sorry for the driver. Hope he survived.

bt


How kind of you.


My birth father was killed by a mine in 1968. My feeling is not of kindness but of sympathy.

bt
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:38 pm

Stupendously effective communications piece here by one Arnold Schwarzenegger. Hope it reaches the intended audience

https://twitter.com/schwarzenegger/stat ... 69762?s=21
 
Elkadad313
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:39 pm

Elkadad313 wrote:

You got the propaganda part right, but MSM and right wing are a conflict in terms.[/quote]

Aaron747 wrote:
Incorrect - Fox, Sky, RT etc have more than enough viewership to be considered MSM.

Aside from the few exceptions you list (RT WAS Russian right wing and is no longer viewed in the U.S.) the MSM is considered to be ‘left-leaning’ to ‘woke-ish,’ even by most left-leaning’ and the woke-ish.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Does+th ... nt=gws-wiz
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:43 pm

Elkadad313 wrote:
Aside from the few exceptions you list (RT WAS Russian right wing and is no longer viewed in the U.S.) the MSM is considered to be ‘left-leaning’ to ‘woke-ish,’ even by most left-leaning’ and the woke-ish.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Does+th ... nt=gws-wiz


Sure, granted. I was correcting the notion the term refers in entirety to one side. Absolutism and hyperbole really grind my gears.

And FWIW Fox averages 1 million more daily viewers than MSNBC. Sky also has subscriber capture of more than 9 million in the UK, and 1/3 of the Australian population accesses their content monthly.
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
THS214 wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Ukraine should not capitulate so soon, even if that's what the West, Israel, and Russia want. The Russians are bogged down, and with anti-tank and anti-aircraft support, the Ukrainians should be able slaughter more of the Russian Army. Decimate them.

Ukraine needs Iron Dome, BUKs, and the like. Ukraine is being transferred SA-8s, SA-10s, SA-12s, and SA-14s with range all better than Stingers. It's a real shame we can't get them Iron Dome around Kyiv and Lviv.


While I like to see Russian army destroyed more we must remember that everyday this war continues more Russian conscripts die as well as Ukrainians. Also more of Ukraine is destroyed and it will mean longer time to rebuild and people to get back home. So I hope this war end as soon as possible.

Ukraine has a choice, risk death or be under a totalitarian state. They must fight. There are only a few ways this ends:
1. Ukrainians accept being a subjugated people under a totalitarian state. This is a horrid outcome I hope doesn't happen.
2. Russia withdrawals. This is unlikely until the pain for Russia increase (more sanctions, more casualties).
3. The continues for years as a quagmire. See Afghanistan (Russia and USA).

Zalenskyy frames this as a patriotic war. I happen to agree.
https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/ ... eshow.html

There is only one acceptable solution, that is for Russia to withdrawal and pay reparations.

Lightsaber


I'm not saying that Ukrainian shouldn't fight quite the opposite.

4. Both give up some to gain more.
-There is a saying: "A lean compromise is better than a fat lawsuit" Replace lawsuit wit war.
- Putin is all in as I wrote before as the war hasn't went as he thought. His latest speech proves that clearly. A coup is needed in Russia. But until that all must be done to stop that killing. Might be to much to ask at the moment but that should be the goal.
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:10 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Dogman wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Feel sorry for the driver. Hope he survived.

bt


How kind of you.


My birth father was killed by a mine in 1968. My feeling is not of kindness but of sympathy.

bt


And my gran dad died in the Winter war and seeing how my mom suffered her whole life I also have sympathy for soldiers both side. I don't want that pain to anyone.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:15 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Stupendously effective communications piece here by one Arnold Schwarzenegger. Hope it reaches the intended audience

https://twitter.com/schwarzenegger/stat ... 69762?s=21

Amazing message. Good people doing wrong...
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:16 pm

THS214 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Dogman wrote:

How kind of you.


My birth father was killed by a mine in 1968. My feeling is not of kindness but of sympathy.

bt


And my gran dad died in the Winter war and seeing how my mom suffered her whole life I also have sympathy for soldiers both side. I don't want that pain to anyone.


A big chunk of my family was wiped in WW2 with records showing few of them were subject to "medical" tortures at Auschwitz.
I don't have much compassion for people that attack free countries.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:24 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Stupendously effective communications piece here by one Arnold Schwarzenegger. Hope it reaches the intended audience

https://twitter.com/schwarzenegger/stat ... 69762?s=21



You can see why he was voted Governor of California some times back.

bt
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:27 pm

THS214 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
THS214 wrote:

While I like to see Russian army destroyed more we must remember that everyday this war continues more Russian conscripts die as well as Ukrainians. Also more of Ukraine is destroyed and it will mean longer time to rebuild and people to get back home. So I hope this war end as soon as possible.

Ukraine has a choice, risk death or be under a totalitarian state. They must fight. There are only a few ways this ends:
1. Ukrainians accept being a subjugated people under a totalitarian state. This is a horrid outcome I hope doesn't happen.
2. Russia withdrawals. This is unlikely until the pain for Russia increase (more sanctions, more casualties).
3. The continues for years as a quagmire. See Afghanistan (Russia and USA).

Zalenskyy frames this as a patriotic war. I happen to agree.
https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/ ... eshow.html

There is only one acceptable solution, that is for Russia to withdrawal and pay reparations.

Lightsaber


I'm not saying that Ukrainian shouldn't fight quite the opposite.

4. Both give up some to gain more.
-There is a saying: "A lean compromise is better than a fat lawsuit" Replace lawsuit wit war.
- Putin is all in as I wrote before as the war hasn't went as he thought. His latest speech proves that clearly. A coup is needed in Russia. But until that all must be done to stop that killing. Might be to much to ask at the moment but that should be the goal.

The problem with giving in to a bully is it encourages them. What fraction of people should be sacrificed to a totalitarian regime? What compromise should be considered acceptible? Would you accept a sibling, parent, or child being trapped on the other side of the new iron curtain? Lower standard of living and life expectancy included. The sons will be sent off to fight more wars.

Or you stop the bully now. It is a choice when casualties are taken. Russia will change what they choose to.

Lightsaber
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:34 pm

lightsaber wrote:
THS214 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Ukraine has a choice, risk death or be under a totalitarian state. They must fight. There are only a few ways this ends:
1. Ukrainians accept being a subjugated people under a totalitarian state. This is a horrid outcome I hope doesn't happen.
2. Russia withdrawals. This is unlikely until the pain for Russia increase (more sanctions, more casualties).
3. The continues for years as a quagmire. See Afghanistan (Russia and USA).

Zalenskyy frames this as a patriotic war. I happen to agree.
https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/ ... eshow.html

There is only one acceptable solution, that is for Russia to withdrawal and pay reparations.

Lightsaber


I'm not saying that Ukrainian shouldn't fight quite the opposite.

4. Both give up some to gain more.
-There is a saying: "A lean compromise is better than a fat lawsuit" Replace lawsuit wit war.
- Putin is all in as I wrote before as the war hasn't went as he thought. His latest speech proves that clearly. A coup is needed in Russia. But until that all must be done to stop that killing. Might be to much to ask at the moment but that should be the goal.

The problem with giving in to a bully is it encourages them. What fraction of people should be sacrificed to a totalitarian regime? What compromise should be considered acceptable? Would you accept a sibling, parent, or child being trapped on the other side of the new iron curtain? Lower standard of living and life expectancy included. The sons will be sent off to fight more wars.

Or you stop the bully now. It is a choice when casualties are taken. Russia will change what they choose to.

Lightsaber


That's the whole problem of the West.
They believe they can reason with a dictator using university acquired logic.
Such disconnect is why even now Germany is encouraging to "talk" which all it does is buys Putin time to bring all the supplies and reinforcements to the front.
It's fine to get punched in the face when trying to stop a bully. Foreign concept to an oversensitive and soft society.
 
THS214
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
THS214 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Ukraine has a choice, risk death or be under a totalitarian state. They must fight. There are only a few ways this ends:
1. Ukrainians accept being a subjugated people under a totalitarian state. This is a horrid outcome I hope doesn't happen.
2. Russia withdrawals. This is unlikely until the pain for Russia increase (more sanctions, more casualties).
3. The continues for years as a quagmire. See Afghanistan (Russia and USA).

Zalenskyy frames this as a patriotic war. I happen to agree.
https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/ ... eshow.html

There is only one acceptable solution, that is for Russia to withdrawal and pay reparations.

Lightsaber


I'm not saying that Ukrainian shouldn't fight quite the opposite.

4. Both give up some to gain more.
-There is a saying: "A lean compromise is better than a fat lawsuit" Replace lawsuit wit war.
- Putin is all in as I wrote before as the war hasn't went as he thought. His latest speech proves that clearly. A coup is needed in Russia. But until that all must be done to stop that killing. Might be to much to ask at the moment but that should be the goal.

The problem with giving in to a bully is it encourages them. What fraction of people should be sacrificed to a totalitarian regime? What compromise should be considered acceptible? Would you accept a sibling, parent, or child being trapped on the other side of the new iron curtain? Lower standard of living and life expectancy included. The sons will be sent off to fight more wars.

Or you stop the bully now. It is a choice when casualties are taken. Russia will change what they choose to.

Lightsaber


I didn't write anything like that. Life is not worth the same in Russia than in the west. You can stop a bully without killing thousands more. Sanctions are working just fine. You know that there are ongoing peace negations between Ukraine and Russia. Russia has a 15 point list but only 3 are really negotiated. Sorry only a Finnish broadcast so I won't link it here.

A peace treaty now to cease fire where Russia gets Luhansk and Donetsk. Keep the western sanctions on and when Putin is out negotiations to return those areas as well as Crimea to Ukraine to end sanctions. Basically in Ukraine that will return the situation before this war but no fighting. I'm not saying that this will happen but just to show one possibility to stop killing and destruction.

And I know that Putin don't want anything like this but maybe he will be persuaded to do so. Endless killings as destruction will end to a Pyrrhic victory.
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
NSFW

Just another day for Russian armour. Frankly, I’m surprised anyone managed to get out of this alive. The ‘debris’ hitting the road at the end is what’s left of an occupant of another tank that was also destroyed further up the road!


Please note, I believe in, there are things, which have not to be linked in this forum. also this is one of the really most harmless videos, I have seen in the last 3 weeks. I am fine, to watch even the most graphics videos, but not fine to link them here even with warning, especially as we have no "warning graphics" message/Icon implemented.
So for me, no POWs, no faces of dead soldiers and nothing gore e.g. I can decide this for mee, I will not decide for others by fault.

And please note, you have missed a second gore one in the last part. There was a second soldier on the back of the first tank under the canvas, when he was directly hit. When the smoke has disappeared, look on the street, this black thing, with one arm. They have directly aimed on the soldiers with the RPGs.
In this war, it is so easy to miss one of the gore things or the charred corpse.
So we have the two gore one and one soldier escaping, also wounded.

I have deleted the link in your quote.
 
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william
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:02 pm

The spinning is from all sides is getting ridiculous but to be expected.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden- ... xi-jinping

Speaking at his daily press conference Thursday, Zhao said China has sent humanitarian assistance to Ukraine, blaming the United States, instead of Russian President Vladimir Putin, for bloodshed happening in Ukraine.

Confronted directly over Ukrainian civilian casualties, Zhao deflected, asking: "I wonder if you were equally concerned about the people in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Palestine?"
He said the true "culprits of the crisis" in Ukraine were the U.S. and NATO.

"It is those countries that delude themselves into thinking that they can lord it over the world after winning the Cold War, those that keep driving NATO’s eastward expansion five times in disregard of other countries’ security concerns, and those that wage wars across the globe while accusing other countries of being belligerent, that should really feel ‘uncomfortable’," he told reporters Thursday.

"The key to solving the Ukraine crisis is in the hands of the US and NATO," Zhao said. "We hope the US and NATO, the culprits of the crisis, can reflect upon their roles in the Ukraine crisis."
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:07 pm

william wrote:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-call-china-president-xi-jinping

Speaking at his daily press conference Thursday, Zhao said China has sent humanitarian assistance to Ukraine, blaming the United States, instead of Russian President Vladimir Putin, for bloodshed happening in Ukraine.

Confronted directly over Ukrainian civilian casualties, Zhao deflected, asking: "I wonder if you were equally concerned about the people in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Palestine?"
He said the true "culprits of the crisis" in Ukraine were the U.S. and NATO.

"It is those countries that delude themselves into thinking that they can lord it over the world after winning the Cold War, those that keep driving NATO’s eastward expansion five times in disregard of other countries’ security concerns, and those that wage wars across the globe while accusing other countries of being belligerent, that should really feel ‘uncomfortable’," he told reporters Thursday.

"The key to solving the Ukraine crisis is in the hands of the US and NATO," Zhao said. "We hope the US and NATO, the culprits of the crisis, can reflect upon their roles in the Ukraine crisis."


And that right there is why PRC is better at playing the long-game than anyone in the business these days. The price of misadventure in the Middle East the last 20 years is not only in blood, mixed results, and treasure, but also an opening for PRC to play 'peacemaker' and equivocate when it suits their purposes.

The two-faced nature of their comments from various officials this week really makes one think they intended to play both sides of this conflict from the start.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:26 pm

THS214 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
THS214 wrote:

I'm not saying that Ukrainian shouldn't fight quite the opposite.

4. Both give up some to gain more.
-There is a saying: "A lean compromise is better than a fat lawsuit" Replace lawsuit wit war.
- Putin is all in as I wrote before as the war hasn't went as he thought. His latest speech proves that clearly. A coup is needed in Russia. But until that all must be done to stop that killing. Might be to much to ask at the moment but that should be the goal.

The problem with giving in to a bully is it encourages them. What fraction of people should be sacrificed to a totalitarian regime? What compromise should be considered acceptible? Would you accept a sibling, parent, or child being trapped on the other side of the new iron curtain? Lower standard of living and life expectancy included. The sons will be sent off to fight more wars.

Or you stop the bully now. It is a choice when casualties are taken. Russia will change what they choose to.

Lightsaber


I didn't write anything like that. Life is not worth the same in Russia than in the west. You can stop a bully without killing thousands more. Sanctions are working just fine. You know that there are ongoing peace negations between Ukraine and Russia. Russia has a 15 point list but only 3 are really negotiated. Sorry only a Finnish broadcast so I won't link it here.

A peace treaty now to cease fire where Russia gets Luhansk and Donetsk. Keep the western sanctions on and when Putin is out negotiations to return those areas as well as Crimea to Ukraine to end sanctions. Basically in Ukraine that will return the situation before this war but no fighting. I'm not saying that this will happen but just to show one possibility to stop killing and destruction.

And I know that Putin don't want anything like this but maybe he will be persuaded to do so. Endless killings as destruction will end to a Pyrrhic victory.

Why does Russia get territory? That is encouraging the bully to fight a future war

Sanctions will only last while Ukraine fights and cannot win the war. What Ukraine must do is not lose.
.I'm aware of negotiations, but without knowing both parties lists, I cannot comment. There might be a peace that won't last. That often happens.

It all depends on if Russia can supply their forward troops. If Ukraine can capture enough Russian troops they will have negotiating leverage. But when does this end? After Syria and Georgia, I doubt Ukraine is the last. So in a way, Ukraine upping the resistance is saving others.

I wouldn't want to live under a totalitarian government. Since that is the cost of compromise, I would fight until the end. Due to the behavior of the Russian attacks, there might be a guerrilla war anyway.

We're getting to the point where partisan forces are unlikely to be controlled.

No one wants war. But the resistance is justified. Russians who want to live can surrender.

We know what Russia will gain. Ukraine gave up nukes for guaranteed peace that was violated. Since Ukraine would be disarmed by the proposed peace which means conquered in the future, in other words the peace on the table is surrendering anyway to a totalitarian state.

You cannot stop a bully without fighting until the bully cries uncle. It is too early, unfortunately, for peace. When Russians care enough about their boys it stops. Until the compromise ceases being a surrender, there is no compromise.

Lightsaber
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:28 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
The two-faced nature of their comments from various officials this week really makes one think they intended to play both sides of this conflict from the start.
I agree but I think it's harder for the Chinese to do now. I think they thought the invasion would be a fait accompli before they had to address it. Sorta "The Russians shouldn't have done it but what's done, is done". Now, they have to backpedal and make up obvious lies to cover their covert complicity. The Russians are making them look bad two ways. First, by them being allies, and second because Russia doesn't look very strong.
 
wingman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
william wrote:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-call-china-president-xi-jinping

Speaking at his daily press conference Thursday, Zhao said China has sent humanitarian assistance to Ukraine, blaming the United States, instead of Russian President Vladimir Putin, for bloodshed happening in Ukraine.

Confronted directly over Ukrainian civilian casualties, Zhao deflected, asking: "I wonder if you were equally concerned about the people in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Palestine?"
He said the true "culprits of the crisis" in Ukraine were the U.S. and NATO.

"It is those countries that delude themselves into thinking that they can lord it over the world after winning the Cold War, those that keep driving NATO’s eastward expansion five times in disregard of other countries’ security concerns, and those that wage wars across the globe while accusing other countries of being belligerent, that should really feel ‘uncomfortable’," he told reporters Thursday.

"The key to solving the Ukraine crisis is in the hands of the US and NATO," Zhao said. "We hope the US and NATO, the culprits of the crisis, can reflect upon their roles in the Ukraine crisis."


And that right there is why PRC is better at playing the long-game than anyone in the business these days. The price of misadventure in the Middle East the last 20 years is not only in blood, mixed results, and treasure, but also an opening for PRC to play 'peacemaker' and equivocate when it suits their purposes.

The two-faced nature of their comments from various officials this week really makes one think they intended to play both sides of this conflict from the start.


I wouldn't be so hasty pinning a crown of brilliance on the PRC. A lot of us did the same with Putin. China may win the propaganda war inside of the Great Internet Wall but it won't win it so easily outside of it.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:34 pm

Ukraine to stand firm on 1991 borders:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk ... 022-03-17/


Good for them. This is the only right course in this humanitarian crisis. It shames me that my country (USA) is not enabling the transfer of the Polish Migs. We should be shipping a lot more equipment for the people of Ukraine to defend themselves.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:38 pm

People need to understand Putin's intentions before they clamor for peace too quickly. A peaceful solution right now is going to result in the breakup of Ukraine, and that is exactly what Putin wants. Putin not only wants to subjugate the country, to disarm it, but to break it up into pseudo-republics that are relatively powerless and non-threatening. Some of these pseudo-republics, a possible future Luhansk and Donetsk, would be probable Russian allies. As would Crimea, and a possible Mariupol/Melitopol republic linking Crimea with the east along the Sea of Azov. Who knows what Putin would want to do with the rest of the country. For Ukraine to survive as a state, even though they may end up losing those eastern territories and Crimea anyway, they need to continue to fight.

And for everyone who is talking about who they lost to war... My grandfather fought in WWII and liberated concentration camps, some of the things he saw haunted him until his death. War isn't pretty. That doesn't mean you just give up for the sake of it though.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:43 pm

Putkin talking about removing "scum and traitors "

This should scare Russians...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... pId=google
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:53 pm

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ne/627064/

Good time to link this article.

Talks about "Dictator Trap".
bt
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Why does Russia get territory? That is encouraging the bully to fight a future war


That's exactly how we ended up in this situation, because everyone basically turned a blind eye when Russia "liberated" Crimea.

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