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johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:58 am

par13del wrote:
cpd wrote:
Russia threatens nuclear war against the west:

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/ru ... 3ee934f034

The west was too soft against him.

Now that an existential threat has been issued against NATO, what does Russia expect NATO to do now that they are both faced with a similar threat?
So Russia doesn't want peacekeepers. That tells us all we need to know about their aims. It appears that Ukraine can fight their own war, unlike Russia... :stirthepot:
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:42 am

johns624 wrote:
I haven't heard anyone bring up the old "Russia isn't a threat because we're too economically linked together" argument lately. Or the "Europe is too civilized to get into a war" one, either.



Not much too that. It is not different to Americans believing they cannot have a civil war, because Americans will not shoot Americans... even though they do every day.

In this instance, no option is off the table. While we all expected the rhetoric to be turned way up over this, it is unwise to think that there is not massive spill-over potential. If this does not end in Ukraine, the western world will have a very real and potentially unmanageable problem on its hands.

Elkadad313 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
France just raised their nuclear alert level and has 3 nuclear submarines on patrol (during peacetime it's 1-2)

https://www.franceinter.fr/monde/la-fra ... res-en-mer

This is classic French symbolism. It needs to do something meaningful. There will be no use of nuclear weapons unless all-out war breaks out, and the real need is for more conventional weaponry.


No, it is responsible handling of valuable assets. Most nations deploy their nukes in harder to reach places —principally this means SSBNs/SLBMs— when the potential for regional conflict presents itself. The story is more why they would have waited so long to do so. I would assume there is some logistical or maintenance reason for this.


SL1200MK2 wrote:

Assuming that in geopolitical leaders must, at various points, have to work with dictators, are you a saying they should work with those that don’t suit their agenda?


Personally I would not. But we do need to get better at sorting which is which. Just as an example, the next ten years will likely reveal identical issues to this war, but over in the Arabian Peninsula as the Saudis fade from relevance. We have spent decades arming them to the teeth in spite of all manner of human rights violations and their complete lack of respect for other nation's boundaries. It is fairly obvious how belligerent they are about to become as they watch their fortunes dry up, and yet we fall all over ourselves to support them.

Perhaps we are just not very good at this?
 
Derico
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:36 am

cpd wrote:
Russia threatens nuclear war against the west:

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/ru ... 3ee934f034

The west was too soft against him.


What Western politicians need immediately is to be muzzled. Really. This third-rate "play by play", leak after leak account of how "Putin is losing his nerve", "Russian troops are inept", "Another Oligarch turns on Putin", "Finger-pointing inside the Kremlin", "They can't take any cities", is utterly pointless and quite frankly, just creates even more friciton with the Russians with absolutely no geopolitical gain. If anything, perhaps things inside the Russian tent would be more favorable to ending the war by now, but for all we know, this incessant "drip-drip" publich shaming of Russian operations serves no purpose. Keep all that info internally, and whatever you want to divulge, keep it plain and gray.
 
Newark727
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:24 am

Derico wrote:
What Western politicians need immediately is to be muzzled. Really. This third-rate "play by play", leak after leak account of how "Putin is losing his nerve", "Russian troops are inept", "Another Oligarch turns on Putin", "Finger-pointing inside the Kremlin", "They can't take any cities", is utterly pointless and quite frankly, just creates even more friciton with the Russians with absolutely no geopolitical gain. If anything, perhaps things inside the Russian tent would be more favorable to ending the war by now, but for all we know, this incessant "drip-drip" publich shaming of Russian operations serves no purpose. Keep all that info internally, and whatever you want to divulge, keep it plain and gray.


On the contrary, it's crucial to not allow the Kremlin to control the international narrative about its war, and putting every Russian screw-up on the airwaves helps accomplish that. That's a big difference between now and 2014. Ukraine understands this - they got the world to think they could hold the Russians off, so the EU and US began to send them the weapons to actually hold the Russians off.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:53 am

bikerthai wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
We all know Putin does not care about troops. So human shields are worthless.
bt

Putin does not control information as well as Stalin did. The population of Russia will care. We'll see another speach asking the mothers of Russia to come pick up their sons.


Ah yes, not the population, but fellow brothers in arms. It should more easy to let those artillery officer know that their are Russian POW in harms way as soldiers would me more sympathetic to their comrades.

But then who knows it might make them more mad or less likely to surrender. A nice warm house arrest flat in neutral Swiss would be great incentive for surrender, second only to avoiding death or injury.

by

I was not advocating using them as human shields, just to be clear. That would piss off their brothers. They should be treated well, taken to camps with decent food and decent recreational activities. I was meaning to imply to treat the prisoners well, but I forgot to add that bit. It is my opinion knowing the sons/brothers were prisoners (well treated, but far away and thus isolated until there is a peace).

I agree a house arrest in Switzerland would do wonders to create an incentive to surrendering. You don't want to slow the surrender pace as that should pick up in the next few weeks. I am basing my opinion on reading Carl Von Clauswitz's Am Krieg where troops tend to get exhausted at six weeks in the field. Exhausted to surrender is better than frantic attacks...
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:13 am

johns624 wrote:
So Russia doesn't want peacekeepers. That tells us all we need to know about their aims. It appears that Ukraine can fight their own war, unlike Russia... :stirthepot:


Well, we know what Putin's idea of 'peacekeeping' is from when he sent a bunch of 'peacekeepers' to Kazakhstan a little while ago to violently suppress popular protests against another totalitarian regime like his own...
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:44 am

cpd wrote:
Russia threatens nuclear war against the west:

https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/ru ... 3ee934f034

The west was too soft against him.


What do you mean with “the west was too soft against him”?
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:05 am

Newark727 wrote:
Derico wrote:
What Western politicians need immediately is to be muzzled. Really. This third-rate "play by play", leak after leak account of how "Putin is losing his nerve", "Russian troops are inept", "Another Oligarch turns on Putin", "Finger-pointing inside the Kremlin", "They can't take any cities", is utterly pointless and quite frankly, just creates even more friciton with the Russians with absolutely no geopolitical gain. If anything, perhaps things inside the Russian tent would be more favorable to ending the war by now, but for all we know, this incessant "drip-drip" publich shaming of Russian operations serves no purpose. Keep all that info internally, and whatever you want to divulge, keep it plain and gray.


On the contrary, it's crucial to not allow the Kremlin to control the international narrative about its war, and putting every Russian screw-up on the airwaves helps accomplish that. That's a big difference between now and 2014. Ukraine understands this - they got the world to think they could hold the Russians off, so the EU and US began to send them the weapons to actually hold the Russians off.

Politicians in the West should have been muzzled about (potential) arms deliveries to the Ukraine. Let the Russians find out the hard way.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:14 am

marcelh wrote:
Politicians in the West should have been muzzled about (potential) arms deliveries to the Ukraine. Let the Russians find out the hard way.
Who is it that you want to keep this information from? I will assure you that Russia knows all about "arms deliveries" to Ukraine. They can just call up Flight radar 24 and see that the Polish Rzeszow-Jasionka airport has been in contention with O'hare and Hartsfield-Jackson for the busiest airport on the planet, what with all the C-17s, C-130s, 747-Fs A-400s and whatnot that have been landing there.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:30 am

Vintage wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Politicians in the West should have been muzzled about (potential) arms deliveries to the Ukraine. Let the Russians find out the hard way.
Who is it that you want to keep this information from? I will assure you that Russia knows all about "arms deliveries" to Ukraine. They can just call up Flight radar 24 and see that the Polish Rzeszow-Jasionka airport has been in contention with O'hare and Hartsfield-Jackson for the busiest airport on the planet, what with all the C-17s, C-130s, 747-Fs A-400s and whatnot that have been landing there.


Beyond that, one would assume that if network news has the big scoop on arms deals, russian intelligence might be aware as well
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:44 am

Vintage wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Politicians in the West should have been muzzled about (potential) arms deliveries to the Ukraine. Let the Russians find out the hard way.
Who is it that you want to keep this information from? I will assure you that Russia knows all about "arms deliveries" to Ukraine. They can just call up Flight radar 24 and see that the Polish Rzeszow-Jasionka airport has been in contention with O'hare and Hartsfield-Jackson for the busiest airport on the planet, what with all the C-17s, C-130s, 747-Fs A-400s and whatnot that have been landing there.


I should have made it a bit clearer. IMHO it isn't clever to discuss the potential deliveries of MIGs (poland), heavy AA missiles (S300) and so in public. Do this under the radar (pun intended) instead of via CNN....
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:29 am

marcelh wrote:
IMHO it isn't clever to discuss the potential deliveries of MIGs (poland), heavy AA missiles (S300) and so in public. Do this under the radar (pun intended) instead of via CNN....


Nah, we can talk about providing anything we want to Ukraine for them to use against Russia. More than happy for Russia to know and worry about it, even if it nver happens.

marcelh wrote:
Except the Russians (and their allies) are framing it as a US vs Russia to fit their agenda....


It's mainly being framed as NATO vs Russia. That was one of the pretexts for invading to build a buffer between poor little Russia and the big, bad bully that is NATO.
 
pune
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:08 pm

Newark727 wrote:
Derico wrote:
What Western politicians need immediately is to be muzzled. Really. This third-rate "play by play", leak after leak account of how "Putin is losing his nerve", "Russian troops are inept", "Another Oligarch turns on Putin", "Finger-pointing inside the Kremlin", "They can't take any cities", is utterly pointless and quite frankly, just creates even more friciton with the Russians with absolutely no geopolitical gain. If anything, perhaps things inside the Russian tent would be more favorable to ending the war by now, but for all we know, this incessant "drip-drip" publich shaming of Russian operations serves no purpose. Keep all that info internally, and whatever you want to divulge, keep it plain and gray.


On the contrary, it's crucial to not allow the Kremlin to control the international narrative about its war, and putting every Russian screw-up on the airwaves helps accomplish that. That's a big difference between now and 2014. Ukraine understands this - they got the world to think they could hold the Russians off, so the EU and the US began to send them the weapons to actually hold the Russians off.


Part of it might be due to Zemlesky, the Ukrainian president. Unlike the past, performers of today including comedians understand the power of social media and narrative-building, especially more so as they also use it while doing their stand-up routines or whatever. So they know that they have to play not one but two, one in real life, the other in cyberspace and in both they have to win.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:27 pm

Putin isn't exactly telegenic.
 
pune
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:02 pm

Somebody asked from the Indian perspective. It is complex why India chose to side with the Russians. So let me give some of the reasons they chose as an Indian.

1. Historically, Russia has helped India a number of times.
2. In the 2014 elections that were held in India, there is a suspicion that Russians helped Modi come to power by providing money, intelligence, and whatnot, just like he is supposed to have done in the U.S. as well as in the UK (the Brexit vote).
3.India needs lots of arms and ammunition to defend herself and keep abreast of Pakistan. even though now China is supplying Pakistan with what they need. There is a lot that the Russians can give/sell us
4. India or in this case GOI or the Govt. of the day has an affinity to dictators if they are European in nature..
5. Russia and China just made a 'no limits' pact a few weeks/month back. India would like to be still in the play, if Russia goes fully under Chinese spell, then there would be lot of trouble for India.

These are some of the reasons. Ironically or because of it, India is using Russian disinfo to show that the Russians are winning and they are on the correct side. Heavy censorship is there

The above are some of the reasons.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:52 pm

russian troops run over their own commander with a tank over their heavy losses!! “ Russian soldiers ran their commander over in protest of the heavy losses that Russia has suffered during its invasion of Ukraine, a Western official said.” He was taken to belarus with leg injuries.

He dead!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-sold ... 18169.html
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:04 pm

Interesting read for those like me, not remembering to well about weapon deliveries to Ukraine between 2014 and 2018:
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/u ... -a-primer/

Interesting points:
  • Lithuania on the for front (the same seams to apply in support of Belarusian opposition).
  • bipartisanship support for Ukraine Freedom Support Actthe in 2014 in US Congress.
  • Barack Obama decided not to authorize the US government sale or financing of lethal weapons to Ukraine but private sales allowed.
  • Always emphasis on armes provided not to be used in Dombas region.

My opinion: you can see restraint in all western action to not provoke Russia.

Best regards and strength to the Ukrainian people,
Jonas
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:06 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
russian troops run over their own commander with a tank over their heavy losses!! “ Russian soldiers ran their commander over in protest of the heavy losses that Russia has suffered during its invasion of Ukraine, a Western official said.” He was taken to belarus with leg injuries.

He dead!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-sold ... 18169.html


According to a tweet from Chechens he's alive.
Can't find it now but there is a video of him in the ambulance.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:17 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
russian troops run over their own commander with a tank over their heavy losses!! “ Russian soldiers ran their commander over in protest of the heavy losses that Russia has suffered during its invasion of Ukraine, a Western official said.” He was taken to belarus with leg injuries.

He dead!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-sold ... 18169.html


According to a tweet from Chechens he's alive.
Can't find it now but there is a video of him in the ambulance.



The article states he died in a belarus hospital. So was alive until that point. There is unconfirmed reports that Ukrainians also got a 6th russian general kill.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:28 pm

pune wrote:
Somebody asked from the Indian perspective. It is complex why India chose to side with the Russians. So let me give some of the reasons they chose as an Indian.

1. Historically, Russia has helped India a number of times.
2. In the 2014 elections that were held in India, there is a suspicion that Russians helped Modi come to power by providing money, intelligence, and whatnot, just like he is supposed to have done in the U.S. as well as in the UK (the Brexit vote).
3.India needs lots of arms and ammunition to defend herself and keep abreast of Pakistan. even though now China is supplying Pakistan with what they need. There is a lot that the Russians can give/sell us
4. India or in this case GOI or the Govt. of the day has an affinity to dictators if they are European in nature..
5. Russia and China just made a 'no limits' pact a few weeks/month back. India would like to be still in the play, if Russia goes fully under Chinese spell, then there would be lot of trouble for India.

These are some of the reasons. Ironically or because of it, India is using Russian disinfo to show that the Russians are winning and they are on the correct side. Heavy censorship is there

The above are some of the reasons.


Thanks, always good to hear from someone local to give us a little insight.

I wanted to point out that one can say openly to a friend and ally when he's wrong and was going to give France as exemple on the 3rd Iraq war...but then remembered how some US and UK folks still hate them for it

Best regards,
Jonas
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:27 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
SRQLOT wrote:
russian troops run over their own commander with a tank over their heavy losses!! “ Russian soldiers ran their commander over in protest of the heavy losses that Russia has suffered during its invasion of Ukraine, a Western official said.” He was taken to belarus with leg injuries.

He dead!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-sold ... 18169.html


According to a tweet from Chechens he's alive.
Can't find it now but there is a video of him in the ambulance.


He was shown on the BBC TV news being loaded into an ambulance. Not many people survive being run over by a tank.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:29 pm

pune wrote:
Somebody asked from the Indian perspective. It is complex why India chose to side with the Russians. So let me give some of the reasons they chose as an Indian.

1. Historically, Russia has helped India a number of times.
2. In the 2014 elections that were held in India, there is a suspicion that Russians helped Modi come to power by providing money, intelligence, and whatnot, just like he is supposed to have done in the U.S. as well as in the UK (the Brexit vote).
3.India needs lots of arms and ammunition to defend herself and keep abreast of Pakistan. even though now China is supplying Pakistan with what they need. There is a lot that the Russians can give/sell us
4. India or in this case GOI or the Govt. of the day has an affinity to dictators if they are European in nature..
5. Russia and China just made a 'no limits' pact a few weeks/month back. India would like to be still in the play, if Russia goes fully under Chinese spell, then there would be lot of trouble for India.

These are some of the reasons. Ironically or because of it, India is using Russian disinfo to show that the Russians are winning and they are on the correct side. Heavy censorship is there

The above are some of the reasons.


That's a lot of reasons to try and explain why India chose the wrong side. Helpfully, they'll be regretting it for a long time.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:42 pm

Not only is India on the wrong side, but they are also on the weak side, as Russia's shortcomings have been exposed.
 
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journeyperson
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:45 pm

pune wrote:
Somebody asked from the Indian perspective. It is complex why India chose to side with the Russians. So let me give some of the reasons they chose as an Indian.

1. Historically, Russia has helped India a number of times.
2. In the 2014 elections that were held in India, there is a suspicion that Russians helped Modi come to power by providing money, intelligence, and whatnot, just like he is supposed to have done in the U.S. as well as in the UK (the Brexit vote).
3.India needs lots of arms and ammunition to defend herself and keep abreast of Pakistan. even though now China is supplying Pakistan with what they need. There is a lot that the Russians can give/sell us
4. India or in this case GOI or the Govt. of the day has an affinity to dictators if they are European in nature..
5. Russia and China just made a 'no limits' pact a few weeks/month back. India would like to be still in the play, if Russia goes fully under Chinese spell, then there would be lot of trouble for India.

These are some of the reasons. Ironically or because of it, India is using Russian disinfo to show that the Russians are winning and they are on the correct side. Heavy censorship is there

The above are some of the reasons.


1. They have been helpful in the past, so support their invasion of a sovereign state.
2. They interfere in your elections so naturally you support their invasion of a sovereign state.
3. You might want to invade Pakistan and will need them to be helpful again,
4. You just can't resist a dictator and love to see them invade a sovereign state, particularly a European one.
5. Oh heck, what to do for the best? I know, support the invading dictator.

Yes, very complex and completely understandable.
 
FlapOperator
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:49 pm

johns624 wrote:
Not only is India on the wrong side, but they are also on the weak side, as Russia's shortcomings have been exposed.


While I agree its a miscalculation on the part of the Indians, I can see the internal logic and the bet that any secondary sanctions on Indian concerns will be window dressing.
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:55 pm

Gas deal between EU and US:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60871601.amp

I’m afraid this won’t be cheap for Europe…
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:09 pm

FlapOperator wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Not only is India on the wrong side, but they are also on the weak side, as Russia's shortcomings have been exposed.


While I agree its a miscalculation on the part of the Indians, I can see the internal logic and the bet that any secondary sanctions on Indian concerns will be window dressing.
What I don't understand is that it seemed like India was starting to be more Western-leaning the last few years while mostly keeping their nonaligned status. Now they go and blow all that goodwill for nothing.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:12 pm

112 Gripes About the French

It is a handbook written by the United States military and given to enlisted personnel arriving in France after the Liberation.

At the end of the Wikipedia page their is a link to pdf (scan of the handbook), it is worth a read (69 small pages)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_Gri ... the_French

But to come back to Ukraine: In an answer about the black market they come to this conclusion (after having shown in many other answers how crippled France was after 3 wars against Germany in only 75 years):
If there is a moral for the world in all this, it is: don't ever let the Germans, or any other Fascist power beat you.


Best regards and strength to us all,
Jonas
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:41 pm

According to Reuters, Germany objected to ban Russian coal.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu ... 022-03-25/
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:44 pm

The 112th and last answer from the handbook (see my previous post) seems also rather fitting for the Ukraine Russia situation:

112: "France is a decadent nation"
How does one measure decadence?
The Germans said: "Democracies are decadent".



Best regards,
Jonas
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:57 pm

BBC reporting that Russia's 'first phase of the operations is over'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60882156

As the commentary states, this seems to be a clear admission that Russia's invasion is not going to plan. If they are going to concentrate on the South and the Donbass, I wonder if we will see the remaining territory held around Kiev and Kharkiv essentially abandoned by lack of ongoing support.

The article also mentions the Russian's assembling 10 new battalions - this could certainly turn the heat up in the 'Republics'
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:00 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
According to Reuters, Germany objected to ban Russian coal.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu ... 022-03-25/
So first she panicked and decided to shut down the nuclear power stations, then to achieve carbon neutrality she chose russian coal and gas as an interim. Brilliant Angie, brilliant.
Perhaps Germany could ask Trumps mates to re-open their coal mines....
 
pune
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:01 pm

journeyperson wrote:
pune wrote:
Somebody asked from the Indian perspective. It is complex why India chose to side with the Russians. So let me give some of the reasons they chose as an Indian.

1. Historically, Russia has helped India a number of times.
2. In the 2014 elections that were held in India, there is a suspicion that Russians helped Modi come to power by providing money, intelligence, and whatnot, just like he is supposed to have done in the U.S. as well as in the UK (the Brexit vote).
3.India needs lots of arms and ammunition to defend herself and keep abreast of Pakistan. even though now China is supplying Pakistan with what they need. There is a lot that the Russians can give/sell us
4. India or in this case GOI or the Govt. of the day has an affinity to dictators if they are European in nature..
5. Russia and China just made a 'no limits' pact a few weeks/month back. India would like to be still in the play, if Russia goes fully under Chinese spell, then there would be lot of trouble for India.

These are some of the reasons. Ironically or because of it, India is using Russian disinfo to show that the Russians are winning and they are on the correct side. Heavy censorship is there

The above are some of the reasons.


1. They have been helpful in the past, so support their invasion of a sovereign state.
2. They interfere in your elections so naturally, you support their invasion of a sovereign state.
3. You might want to invade Pakistan and will need them to be helpful again,
4. You just can't resist a dictator and love to see them invade a sovereign state, particularly a European one.
5. Oh heck, what to do for the best? I know, support the invading dictator.

Yes, very complex and completely understandable.


I didn't say I like it but yes, these are the explanations given by the Govt. of date. They love, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Putin, et al. You ask them how is Ukraine which is 28 times smaller than Russia they cannot answer but still they have wet dreams that Russia will win this war and annex Ukraine.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:01 pm

marcelh wrote:
Politicians in the West should have been muzzled about (potential) arms deliveries to the Ukraine. Let the Russians find out the hard way.

This we can agree upon.

Oh look, more combat missions today...

How to get Ukraine more tanks?
 
pune
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:06 pm

scbriml wrote:
pune wrote:
Somebody asked from the Indian perspective. It is complex why India chose to side with the Russians. So let me give some of the reasons they chose as an Indian.

1. Historically, Russia has helped India a number of times.
2. In the 2014 elections that were held in India, there is a suspicion that Russians helped Modi come to power by providing money, intelligence, and whatnot, just like he is supposed to have done in the U.S. as well as in the UK (the Brexit vote).
3. India needs lots of arms and ammunition to defend herself and keep abreast of Pakistan. even though now China is supplying Pakistan with what they need. There is a lot that the Russians can give/sell us
4. India or in this case GOI or the Govt. of the day has an affinity to dictators if they are European in nature.
5. Russia and China just made a 'no limits' pact a few weeks/month back. India would like to be still in the play, if Russia goes fully under the Chinese spell, then there would be a lot of trouble for India.

These are some of the reasons. Ironically or because of it, India is using Russian disinfo to show that the Russians are winning and they are on the correct side. Heavy censorship is there

The above are some of the reasons.


That's a lot of reasons to try and explain why India chose the wrong side. Helpfully, they'll be regretting it for a long time.


Nope, they won't. Trump came to India and wanted the NRI vote and Modi supported him, there was a fallout after Biden came to power but do you think the Indian leadership learned a thing or two. They still want Trump to return and if not Tucker Carlson will be good. That is their aim and everybody knows it here. If the U.S. were to put sanctions on India then it would be a different story, but that hasn't been done and India can buy Russian oil as well as whatever arms and ammunition it wants. So, if there are no consequences for its actions, why would it regret.?

Even in World War 2, many of the north-Indian businessmen sided with the fascists and made billions of rupees. Nothing ever came out, nor would it ever. And it isn't as if the West didn't know about it, but kept quiet as they were doing their own thing, looting India. But all of this is actually OT to what is happening in Ukraine, what is actually needed is to see how Ukraine can be helped, these things will keep on happening till the current Govt. is.
Last edited by pune on Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:06 pm

marcelh wrote:
Gas deal between EU and US:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60871601.amp

I’m afraid this won’t be cheap for Europe…


Suck it up and enjoy screwing Putin.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Politicians in the West should have been muzzled about (potential) arms deliveries to the Ukraine. Let the Russians find out the hard way.

This we can agree upon.

Oh look, more combat missions today...

How to get Ukraine more tanks?
Speaking of tanks. I read somewhere (sorry can't find article anymore) that the Ukrainian army is actually increasing the number of tanks due to the captured ones.

Edit: Found it
https://mobile.twitter.com/dansabbagh/s ... oland-live
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:21 pm

pune wrote:
Even in World War 2, many of the north-Indian businessmen sided with the fascists and made billions of rupees.


Just like the Vietminh sided with the Russian to gain independence from the French. The history of SE Asia would be much different if the US see the Vietminh as nationalist as opposed to Communists.

As for India, there have been no precedence of the US sanctioning a country for a negative vote in the UN. As long as India stay away from doing business with the Russian until this blows over, it will be fine.

There are several military contract competition for the Indian Arm Force that US and European companies are keen to win. So there will be general resistance to sanctioning for a vote that doesn't really do anything and was going to pass anyway with or without India.

bt
 
pune
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:21 pm

johns624 wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Not only is India on the wrong side, but they are also on the weak side, as Russia's shortcomings have been exposed.


While I agree it's a miscalculation on the part of the Indians, I can see the internal logic and the bet that any secondary sanctions on Indian concerns will be window dressing.
What I don't understand is that it seemed like India was starting to be more Western-leaning the last few years while mostly keeping its nonaligned status. Now they go and blow all that goodwill for nothing.


That was a different Govt. and a different philosophy. Now we have an extreme RW govt. who doesn't have a fig's ass about human rights or anything, especially if you are a woman, A Dalit, A tribal or a Muslim, or a Christian. A Christian would be treated somewhat better than a Muslim. And there is enough written about it. Just a couple of weeks back a fictional story called Kashmir Files sort of tries to tell how the Kashmiri Pandits were made to leave town by Kashmiri Muslims. The reality by RTI from MHA (Ministry of Home Affairs) tells that 235 Pandits were killed by terrorists within the last 20 years while 95,000 Kashmiri Muslims. And it isn't as if by seeing the movie, they are giving anything to the Kashmiri Pandit. In fact, whatever little they were getting as they had to come out and be in refugee camps in Jammu and Delhi, this Govt. has taken a lot of that pensions and whatnot. The whole politics is about how to win elections using KashmirFiles and anger about the minority, forget that loans to GDP are now 87% or that inflation even before the pandemic was in double digits or that imports have been 10 times from 2014 while exports are flat or there are no jobs available and a huge number of people jobless, actually record number of joblessness. So the anger is being directed towards minorities and other 'distractions' such as above. Somehow to prove that whatever BJP thinks is right and most people believe in what they say without looking at the logic of things.
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Gas deal between EU and US:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60871601.amp

I’m afraid this won’t be cheap for Europe…


Suck it up and enjoy screwing Putin.


And getting screwed in a few years by a Trumpist….
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:29 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
There is unconfirmed reports that Ukrainians also got a 6th russian general kill.


The one that got run over would make 7?


bt
 
pune
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:30 pm

bikerthai wrote:
pune wrote:
Even in World War 2, many of the north-Indian businessmen sided with the fascists and made billions of rupees.


Just like the Vietminh sided with the Russian to gain independence from the French. The history of SE Asia would be much different if the US see the Vietminh as nationalist as opposed to Communists.

As for India, there has been no precedence of the US sanctioning a country for a negative vote in the UN. As long as India stay away from doing business with the Russian until this blows over, it will be fine.

There are several military contract competitions for the Indian Arm Force that US and European companies are keen to win. So there will be general resistance to sanctioning for a vote that doesn't really do anything and was going to pass anyway with or without India.

bt


I agree but I doubt that Indians will stay from doing business. They just can't. And yes, do know about the Army contracts, they are banking on that. Although most of it would be on lease as lately, we have been even taking arms and ammunition from Russia on lease. And taxes have been sky high and even going up as I speak. Just a couple of weeks back they raised minimal GST charges from 5 to 8% and at the high-end, it is 32%, Much of the electronics has a customs duty of 200% and then GST is on top of that. And hence there has been stagflation in India from even before the pandemic. Most Govt. appointed economists have been talking about 'green shoots' from the last 8 years but somehow they don't result in fully matured trees. :(
Last edited by pune on Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tomcat
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:32 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
According to Reuters, Germany objected to ban Russian coal.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu ... 022-03-25/
So first she panicked and decided to shut down the nuclear power stations, then to achieve carbon neutrality she chose russian coal and gas as an interim. Brilliant Angie, brilliant.
Perhaps Germany could ask Trumps mates to re-open their coal mines....


I don't have access to this Reuters article but the title seems a bit misleading given that Germany has announced today that they would end importing Russian coal by fall. Should we understand that Germany has objected to an immediate ban of Russian coal?

For the record:
Germany announced on Friday that it was "rapidly reducing" its reliance on Russian energy.

It has plans to become independent of Russian coal by the fall and nearly independent of Russian oil by the end of the year.


https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/25/germany-wants-to-stop-using-russian-coal-by-the-end-of-the-year
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:37 pm

tomcat wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
According to Reuters, Germany objected to ban Russian coal.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu ... 022-03-25/
So first she panicked and decided to shut down the nuclear power stations, then to achieve carbon neutrality she chose russian coal and gas as an interim. Brilliant Angie, brilliant.
Perhaps Germany could ask Trumps mates to re-open their coal mines....


I don't have access to this Reuters article but the title seems a bit misleading given that Germany has announced today that they would end importing Russian coal by fall. Should we understand that Germany has objected to an immediate ban of Russian coal?

For the record:
Germany announced on Friday that it was "rapidly reducing" its reliance on Russian energy.

It has plans to become independent of Russian coal by the fall and nearly independent of Russian oil by the end of the year.


https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/25/germany-wants-to-stop-using-russian-coal-by-the-end-of-the-year
Still remains the question of gas. That'll be harder than coal or oil.

We're seeing that energy security = national security almost.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:04 pm

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... ps-report/

Yakov Rezantsev was the seventh Russian general killed since the start of the invasion. Only 13 others remain.


Over a third of the generals are no more. That is quite the statistic.

bt
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:10 pm

bikerthai wrote:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/7th-russian-general-killed-in-ukraine-senior-commander-murdered-by-own-troops-report/

Yakov Rezantsev was the seventh Russian general killed since the start of the invasion. Only 13 others remain.


Over a third of the generals are no more. That is quite the statistic.

bt
Excuse my ignorance but how do you get a 'new' general?
Would they promote someone from the ranks or get another general from elsewhere like the parts not currently in the Ukraine?
 
tomcat
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:11 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
tomcat wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
So first she panicked and decided to shut down the nuclear power stations, then to achieve carbon neutrality she chose russian coal and gas as an interim. Brilliant Angie, brilliant.
Perhaps Germany could ask Trumps mates to re-open their coal mines....


I don't have access to this Reuters article but the title seems a bit misleading given that Germany has announced today that they would end importing Russian coal by fall. Should we understand that Germany has objected to an immediate ban of Russian coal?

For the record:
Germany announced on Friday that it was "rapidly reducing" its reliance on Russian energy.

It has plans to become independent of Russian coal by the fall and nearly independent of Russian oil by the end of the year.


https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/25/germany-wants-to-stop-using-russian-coal-by-the-end-of-the-year
Still remains the question of gas. That'll be harder than coal or oil.

We're seeing that energy security = national security almost.


The Germans have obviously long forgotten the value of diversification when it comes to energy supply and they didn't even bother to consider a back-up plan by not building a single LNG terminal. What kind of irresponsible policy was that?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:17 pm

It seems that Russia is having a change of strategy in the war. Faced with ever-growing losses and now being pushed back by Ukrainian forces around Kyiv, it looks as though Russia will try and consolidate their gains in the Donbas region. This must be hugely embarrassing for Putin.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2 ... bas-region
Russia has claimed that the first phase of its “military operation” in Ukraine was mostly complete, and that it would focus on completely “liberating” eastern Ukraine’s Donbas region.

The announcement on Friday appeared to indicate that Russia may be switching to more limited goals after running into fierce Ukrainian resistance in the first month of the war in Ukraine.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:25 pm

marcelh wrote:
scbriml wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Gas deal between EU and US:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60871601.amp

I’m afraid this won’t be cheap for Europe…


Suck it up and enjoy screwing Putin.


And getting screwed in a few years by a Trumpist….


Would you prefer to be screwed by Putin?

Image
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:30 pm

scbriml wrote:
now being pushed back by Ukrainian forces around Kyiv

And also apparently being pushed back in the south too!
Russia is no longer in full control of Kherson, the first major city it captured in the war, as Ukrainian forces fight to retake it, a senior Pentagon official says.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/03/25 ... russia-war

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