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LCDFlight
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sat Mar 26, 2022 9:33 pm

The time will come to rout the Russians out of Donbass and Crimea, which are Ukrainian territory. Anyone who resists is a valid military target.
 
pune
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:25 pm

bikerthai wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
With rising inflation and sky rocketing fuel prices the average US citizen will not support a large war to protect an island that most of them couldn't find on a map.


Do not underestimate the ability for the average American to withstand hardship if they believe the cause is just.

It would be interesting to know how many Americans know how to find Taiwan vs Ukraine prior to this conflict. My bet is more American knows about Taiwan than they did Ukraine as we got lots more press of US ship transiting the Taiwan Straight and it is so easy now a days to look up these countries in Google Maps.

Also, to China opening up in 1972, all the "Made in China" products were from Taiwan. We still gets lots of products with Made in Taiwan labels. Not so much made in Ukraine.

bt


There is an excellent fictional book called China Gate - by William Arnold which is based in Taiwan and tells a lot about how it came to be the power it is
 
FGITD
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:42 am

If only there was some way for those Russians to not be in that situation! Maybe something to the effect of not invading a sovereign nation without reason. Their homes aren’t being bombed; families not being killed. They could be home and life wouldn’t change at all for them. They may be young conscripts but…war is war…don’t go to war if you aren’t willing to accept the consequences.

You know who didn’t get to choose it? The millions of Ukrainian citizens who’s livelihoods have been permanently altered or destroyed because those Russians are there destroying their country.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:23 am

That video may present a quandary for Putin's propagandists. On one hand, it will generate hatred for Ukrainians, which is a good thing, from their point of view.

On the other, it shows that there is a real war going on in Ukraine and the Russians are viciously hated by the Ukrainians, which goes against their "special operations" euphemism. It also can't be very reassuring to the conscripts they are sending.

They may suppress this video.
 
cpd
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:35 am

FGITD wrote:
If only there was some way for those Russians to not be in that situation! Maybe something to the effect of not invading a sovereign nation without reason. Their homes aren’t being bombed; families not being killed. They could be home and life wouldn’t change at all for them. They may be young conscripts but…war is war…don’t go to war if you aren’t willing to accept the consequences.

You know who didn’t get to choose it? The millions of Ukrainian citizens who’s livelihoods have been permanently altered or destroyed because those Russians are there destroying their country.


This is a war, and it is Ukraine whose nation was invaded by Russia, not the other way around.

All those back in Russia can sleep at night with a roof over their heads and a comfortable bed and not worry about being hit by chemical bombs or hypersonic missiles. Big difference. Not surprised that the Ukrainians are angry. I would be too.

Nobody wins in this conflict.
 
kelval
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:14 pm

Wich video are the last few posts speaking of?

Also, I'm quite concerned about the last Biden's declarations, where he says that Putin cannot remain in power (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/26/worl ... raine.html).
In a position where every single word has a meaning (head of state, most important country in NATO), I can't understand what he's trying to do, or what he's expecting. He knows first hand that NATO cannot launch a frontal attack on Russia, and that most Russians will never ever hear about that speech. So what's the point really?
As I said, I have the feeling that he's trying to obtain something or push something (some countries?) but I can't understand what or how exactly.
 
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journeyperson
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:45 pm

kelval wrote:
Wich video are the last few posts speaking of?

Also, I'm quite concerned about the last Biden's declarations, where he says that Putin cannot remain in power (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/26/worl ... raine.html).
In a position where every single word has a meaning (head of state, most important country in NATO), I can't understand what he's trying to do, or what he's expecting. He knows first hand that NATO cannot launch a frontal attack on Russia, and that most Russians will never ever hear about that speech. So what's the point really?
As I said, I have the feeling that he's trying to obtain something or push something (some countries?) but I can't understand what or how exactly.


Henry became incensed ............................ and is said to have uttered the fateful words “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest!”
Four of Henry’s knights, probably not the brightest of men, took this as a summons to action, and left for Canterbury immediately.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:52 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
I'm rather suspicious of massive under-ratio of wounded on Russian side, vs. killed. Last I looked, it's like 1:1; it's not really possible. The math doesn't work out. Reports are coming that Russians are finishing off their own wounded.


The Russians would be most knowledgeable on the number of wounded. But they are not publishing reliable data.

Wounded prisoners are typically captured by attacking, not retreating armies.

Consider the weather condition of the recent fighting. Wounded soldiers left on the field will died more quickly with in the cold before captured.

I doubt the Russians are shooting their wounded. Intercepted communication noted that some units are retreaving their dead and carrying them along for days. So if there are any shooting of wounded, we would hear about it by now.

But you have a point. Ukraine is currently using hit and run tactics. Once the campaign to retake territory progress, we should see more reliable data on wounded prisoners.

bt
Last edited by bikerthai on Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:56 pm

journeyperson wrote:
kelval wrote:
Wich video are the last few posts speaking of?

Also, I'm quite concerned about the last Biden's declarations, where he says that Putin cannot remain in power (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/26/worl ... raine.html).
In a position where every single word has a meaning (head of state, most important country in NATO), I can't understand what he's trying to do, or what he's expecting. He knows first hand that NATO cannot launch a frontal attack on Russia, and that most Russians will never ever hear about that speech. So what's the point really?
As I said, I have the feeling that he's trying to obtain something or push something (some countries?) but I can't understand what or how exactly.


Henry became incensed ............................ and is said to have uttered the fateful words “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest!”
Four of Henry’s knights, probably not the brightest of men, took this as a summons to action, and left for Canterbury immediately.


Yes, it's a direct call for leadership change. Preferably via "apoplectic stroke. With a snuffbox on the temple" mechanism, like with Tsar Paul I of Russia.
Russian leadership is faced with loss of all aggregated wealth they stashed outside of Russia, and now being directly told the hunt for them and their money and livelihood will be taken into Russia.
"Akela missed his prey", after all, and eliminating the crazed Lone Wolf is not the worst outcome for the package of jackals the Russian leadership is
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:05 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
I'm rather suspicious of massive under-ratio of wounded on Russian side, vs. killed. Last I looked, it's like 1:1; it's not really possible. The math doesn't work out. Reports are coming that Russians are finishing off their own wounded.


The Russians would be most knowledgeable on the number of wounded. But they are not publishing reliable data.

Wounded prisoners are typically captured by attacking, not retreating armies.

Consider the weather condition of the recent fighting. Wounded soldiers left on the field will died more quickly with in the cold before captured.

I doubt the Russians are shooting their wounded. Intercepted communication noted that some units are retreaving their dead and carrying them along for days. So if there are any shooting of wounded, we would hear about it by now.

But you have a point. Ukraine is currently using hit and run tactics. Once the campaign to retake territory progress, we should see more reliable data on wounded prisoners.

bt


Don't be so sure about ruskies knowing stuff. They wouldn't deploy generals to the frontlines in numbers, sufficient to be slaughtered in notable quantities, if communications were well organized.

Yes, frostbite was a thing for Russians even before getting wounded, especially in the South of Ukraine, where they basically expected to parade through Odessa in dress uniforms. Instead they got eight to ten (depending on how you count) battles of Chornobayivka.
 
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alberchico
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:06 pm

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... in-butcher

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/fr ... 022-03-27/

So Macron thinks Biden went a bit too far with his rhetoric and is diplomatically saying that he should tone it down, as such rhetoric makes Putin even more unlikely to back down. I completely disagree. It was obvious since this war began that failure in Ukraine was not an option for Putin. He is going to continue to pursue this war regardless of whatever rhetoric or insults are thrown his way. It looks like the grand plan is to seize much of the coastline and take as much territory in the East as possible and create a separate autonomous region, arranged through some phony referendum.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ro ... 022-03-27/
 
petertenthije
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:13 pm

kelval wrote:
As I said, I have the feeling that he's trying to obtain something or push something (some countries?) but I can't understand what or how exactly.

Or, he just let his guard down for a second and told his private opinion instead of the carefully weighted and considered official opinion.

Totally unprofessional, very unwise, and totally in line with past remarks made by Joe “I’d take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him” Biden.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:16 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
I'm rather suspicious of massive under-ratio of wounded on Russian side, vs. killed. Last I looked, it's like 1:1; it's not really possible. The math doesn't work out. Reports are coming that Russians are finishing off their own wounded.


The Russians would be most knowledgeable on the number of wounded. But they are not publishing reliable data.
bt

...are we now satisfied that Russia is an open society and the population demands of their government versus are still told what they should know and what is in their best interest?
Too many times we review situations based on we versus they...one is easy the other requires more research.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:25 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Totally unprofessional, very unwise, and totally in line with past remarks made by Joe “I’d take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him” Biden.


keesje wrote:
Agree, almost everybody thinks that you have to leave the opponent (Putin) escape routes. Not doing so isn't Bidens smartest move, US speaks people already tried to downplay it.


Where is it that "everyone" is foremost concerned about Putin saving his face? The war has been underway for a month and people are still cocerned about semantics and Putin's precious feelings? :crazy:
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:26 pm

According to Twitter that 2 minutes something video is showing the artillery soldiers that were shelling Kharkiv all night targeting civilians.
If it’s true then I see nothing wrong. Being nice to the devil isn’t getting you nowhere.

As for Biden remarks is laughable that people are calling it too far. How about we start calling things as they are and not act like we respect a dictator while he is killing civilians.
Weak and pathetic which seems to be the theme especially for Macron who keeps calling Putin every other day and try to reason with him.
Last edited by PixelPilot on Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:26 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Or, he just let his guard down for a second and told his private opinion instead of the carefully weighted and considered official opinion.


This really perplex me. Biden is old, but to me he's not senile. All those years in the Senate would school him in the deliberate use of words.

These "mis spoken" words have been happening too often to be coincidences. A disciplined staff should be able to clamp these statement down. So to me they are either purposefully leaving these "statements" in the speech or letting POTUS make them and using them for some political posturing purpose.

Probably learned that because of the prior administration, incendiary statements do not have the same impact as it would before.

Easier to "speak your mind" with or without projecting your true policy.

bt
 
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keesje
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:34 pm

Before you know, censorship by young motivated guys who feel they are doing the right thing takes over.
Typical for all sides. Their soldiers shouldn't think, but act, follow orders. Unity is essential, doubt be suppressed.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:43 pm

OK, I finally saw a video of supposedly Ukrainians abusing prisoners and shooting them in the legs?

The one thing that struck me was the age of the prisoners. They have long beards and shaved heads. Doesn't look like any the typical Russian conscripts nor a professional soldiers that we saw on the "Russian soldier confession" video.

bt
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:44 pm

alberchico wrote:
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220327-macron-warns-against-escalation-after-biden-brands-putin-butcher

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/fr ... 022-03-27/

So Macron thinks Biden went a bit too far with his rhetoric and is diplomatically saying that he should tone it down, as such rhetoric makes Putin even more unlikely to back down. I completely disagree. It was obvious since this war began that failure in Ukraine was not an option for Putin. He is going to continue to pursue this war regardless of whatever rhetoric or insults are thrown his way. It looks like the grand plan is to seize much of the coastline and take as much territory in the East as possible and create a separate autonomous region, arranged through some phony referendum.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ro ... 022-03-27/


Seriously, who cares what Macron thinks? His softly-softly, be nice to Vlad(tm) approach has achieved a resounding nothing thus far. Russia is still shelling and bombing indiscriminately and targeting civilian infrastructure (as has been their MO for some time now).
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:49 pm

keesje wrote:
Before you know, censorship by young motivated guys who feel they are doing the right thing takes over.
Typical for all sides. Their soldiers shouldn't think, but act, follow orders.

Quote:
"Saruman:
- Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life. And now... perfected. My fighting Uruk-Hai. Whom do you serve?

Lurtz:
- Saruman."

Just for reminder -- rallies against Russian involvement, under Ukrainian banner, in Donetsk were massive in early 2014. But then "russian world" arrived, with murder, torture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izolyatsia_prison
Almost eight years could turn almost anyone who couldn't flee into swine.
Exhibit A: Germany, 1933-1941.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:54 pm

petertenthije wrote:
kelval wrote:
As I said, I have the feeling that he's trying to obtain something or push something (some countries?) but I can't understand what or how exactly.

Or, he just let his guard down for a second and told his private opinion instead of the carefully weighted and considered official opinion.

Totally unprofessional, very unwise, and totally in line with past remarks made by Joe “I’d take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him” Biden.


Yes, he should have continued the professionalism of his predecessor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIs2L2nUL-0&ab_channel=MashableDeals

At least he's saying what much of the world is actually thinking.
 
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keesje
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:02 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
keesje wrote:
Before you know, censorship by young motivated guys who feel they are doing the right thing takes over.
Typical for all sides. Their soldiers shouldn't think, but act, follow orders.

Quote:
"Saruman:
- Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life. And now... perfected. My fighting Uruk-Hai. Whom do you serve?

Lurtz:
- Saruman."

Just for reminder -- rallies against Russian involvement, under Ukrainian banner, in Donetsk were massive in early 2014. But then "russian world" arrived, with murder, torture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izolyatsia_prison
Almost eight years could turn almost anyone who couldn't flee into swine.
Exhibit A: Germany, 1933-1941.


I watched the Hobit triology recently, and realized how this great movie will be looked back at 20-40 years from now, in the light of political developments, perception management and steering the masses. The basic message is to educate younger generations you really have to fight for ideals, don't ask questions and accept bloodshed because you are the right ones, saving the earth from evil, inhuman ones. Painfully not that different from the messages from the (deeply evil) Exhibit A references you mention.

I guess 40 years of reading history from many angles, watching conflicts, wars, media, politicians, talking to many people from many places is not what our warfighters did or need. POTUS Biden sure had his share/ experiences, 60 years full of drama. That's encouraging, hopefully there are enough 60+ yrs olds that looked around a bit further in Moscow too.
Last edited by keesje on Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
kelval
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:10 pm

bikerthai wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Or, he just let his guard down for a second and told his private opinion instead of the carefully weighted and considered official opinion.


This really perplex me. Biden is old, but to me he's not senile. All those years in the Senate would school him in the deliberate use of words.

These "mis spoken" words have been happening too often to be coincidences. A disciplined staff should be able to clamp these statement down. So to me they are either purposefully leaving these "statements" in the speech or letting POTUS make them and using them for some political posturing purpose.

Probably learned that because of the prior administration, incendiary statements do not have the same impact as it would before.

Easier to "speak your mind" with or without projecting your true policy.

bt

You said it better than I did.
But yes, that's the spirit.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:21 pm

keesje wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
keesje wrote:
Before you know, censorship by young motivated guys who feel they are doing the right thing takes over.
Typical for all sides. Their soldiers shouldn't think, but act, follow orders.

Quote:
"Saruman:
- Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life. And now... perfected. My fighting Uruk-Hai. Whom do you serve?

Lurtz:
- Saruman."

Just for reminder -- rallies against Russian involvement, under Ukrainian banner, in Donetsk were massive in early 2014. But then "russian world" arrived, with murder, torture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izolyatsia_prison
Almost eight years could turn almost anyone who couldn't flee into swine.
Exhibit A: Germany, 1933-1941.


I watched the Hobit triology recently, and realized how this great movie will be looked back at 20-40 years from now, in the light of political developments, perception management and steering the masses. The basic message is to educate younger generations you really have to fight for ideals, don't ask questions and accept bloodshed because you are the right ones, saving the earth from evil, inhuman ones. Painfully not that different from the messages from the (deeply evil) Exhibit A references you mention.

I guess 40 years of reading history from many angles, watching conflicts, wars, media, politicians, talking to many people from many places is not what our warfighters did or need. POTUS Biden sure had his share/ experiences, 60 years full of drama. That's encouraging, hopefully there are enough 60+ yrs olds that looked around a bit further in Moscow too.



Well, taking a distant view might indeed show you more of the shape of the forest. We do observe the trees -- gotta do it, we are too close.
I'm reminded of an immortal classic by Leo Tolstoy:
"No one spoke of hatred of the Russians. The feeling experienced by all the Chechens, from the youngest to the oldest, was stronger than hate. It was not hatred, for they did not regard those Russian dogs as human beings, but it was such repulsion, disgust, and perplexity at the senseless cruelty of these creatures, that the desire to exterminate them -- like the desire to exterminate rats, poisonous spiders, or wolves -- was as natural an instinct as that of self-preservation. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadji_Murat_(novel)
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:39 pm

bikerthai wrote:
OK, I finally saw a video of supposedly Ukrainians abusing prisoners and shooting them in the legs?

The one thing that struck me was the age of the prisoners. They have long beards and shaved heads. Doesn't look like any the typical Russian conscripts nor a professional soldiers that we saw on the "Russian soldier confession" video.

bt
Could they be part of the Chechen private army or Wagner Group? If so, I don't believe they are awarded any rights as POWs.
 
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keesje
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:43 pm

De-humanizing your opponents is an important preparation for war. You can't ask our sons to go kill other sons when they play piano well, love Tolstoy & Hemingway and blockbuster movies too, play soccer and who's familiy was massacred by "the west" in the last worldwar.. don't overcomplicate.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... es.svg.png

IMO Merkel fully inderstood Putin & could talk sense into him, because of their shared past. Now there is distance.
Last edited by keesje on Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 3:59 pm

keesje wrote:
De-humanizing your opponents is an important preparation for war.
....


Correct. Problem is -- this time the unhumans did their best to de-humanize themselves WITHIN the course of this war.
So, no, good thinking on your part, but flawed.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:28 pm

keesje wrote:
IMO Merkel fully inderstood Putin & could talk sense into him, because of their shared past. Now there is distance.


"Shared past"? Unless Merkel was a career STASI officer (which she wasn't) I don't see what "shared past" are you talking about.
Merkel and Hollande/Macron have been talking sense to Putin since 2014... bombed out Mariupol, Kherson and millions dosplaced are the result.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:02 pm

Russian solider allegedly surrenders tank for $10K, Ukrainian citizenship


Not quite as nice as a flat in Switzerland. But if this is true, hope there will be more takers.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com ... r-10k/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailym ... nship.html

bt
 
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keesje
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:18 pm

Unfortunately patriotic bullcrap, press embedding, flagwaving, mythbuilding, oversimplification and half truths are part of every war I've seen.. By all sides, often press people not even realizing themselves. I hope everybody activated his/her filters.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:21 pm

Perhaps Biden and Macron are playing 'good cop, bad cop' for whatever reason you'd want to reason with a deranged dictator.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:21 pm

How about encouraging Ukrainians in occupied areas to allow Russian soldiers to borrow phones to text home and say they are alive.

It may even kick start grass root human relationships that is key to lasting peace.

bt
 
889091
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:32 pm

bikerthai wrote:
How about encouraging Ukrainians in occupied areas to allow Russian soldiers to borrow phones to text home and say they are alive.

It may even kick start grass root human relationships that is key to lasting peace.

bt


:thumbsup: agreed.

Two wrongs don't make a right (can't find the post upthread about the Ukrainians breaking a Russian soldier's legs anymore. Possibly deleted).

The Ukrainians should take the moral high ground. Easy for me to say sitting behind a notebook though.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:46 pm

I don't get the fuss, beyond even in this dangerous time, the internal political posturing within the US, about what is a statement of fact.
Not a direct policy, the US has no way to do it anyway, nor should they. First he's too 'weak' (huh?), now too aggressive, make your minds up because the same people are the ones tending to make both those comments.

It's been no small task to get a coalition to get those sanctions, much more extensive if imperfect (they always are), the changes of policy as regards arms to Ukraine beyond the UK and US and more. Plus as some images showed, Biden having to tell off our idiot Prime Minister, now there is someone at the NATO meeting way out of his depth and looking it. Luckily the adult in the Cabinet is the Defence Secretary.
I think this piece sums it up well;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ts-welcome

Putin may try to bide for time, (hence the talk of 'limiting' operations all of a sudden), knowing that the costs of sanctions in the West may wear down resolve, not just in Europe, more dangerously in the US where bitching about some fuel prices is more acute and that the Putin Fan Club faction, in the ascendant in the GOP, may get power again or enough to stymie further efforts.

As the link above notes, certain nations need reminding where their best interests are, including the state that always gets a pass whatever they do, in the US.
Last edited by GDB on Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:57 pm

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-fo ... -3xs2w829q

Stories like these really takes a break from the regular proproganda. Sorry pay wall.

Also stories like the ones from Vice from the civilian point of view is a break from. Those two minute sound bites.

bt
 
art
Posts: 4860
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:15 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
The time will come to rout the Russians out of Donbass and Crimea, which are Ukrainian territory. Anyone who resists is a valid military target.


Am I not right in thinking that the majority in Crimea approves Russian occupation? If true, how do you want the majority to be treated?
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1459
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:17 pm

art wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
The time will come to rout the Russians out of Donbass and Crimea, which are Ukrainian territory. Anyone who resists is a valid military target.


Am I not right in thinking that the majority in Crimea approves Russian occupation? If true, how do you want the majority to be treated?


If they wanted to live in Russia, move to Russia. Simples.
 
GDB
Posts: 15386
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:22 pm

There has been much concern about the security of the Chernobyl site.
I hope this reminder from that incident, which also covers the spikes in radiation when the Russians turned up uninvited, does not see this deleted as 'off topic'. There is more than one way to threaten with 'nuclear' than just weapons after all.
It isn't though I don't recall this being in the excellent HBO series of the accident, certainly I was not aware of it, for narrative and continuity something usually has to missed out;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz2nhRaBjQo
 
Alfons
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:48 pm

keesje wrote:
IMO Merkel fully inderstood Putin & could talk sense into him, because of their shared past. Now there is distance.


Oh, so you want to say by that, that Putin is a lion and we have to be nice with this beast of its own nature, otherwise we have to accept him to attack other sovereign countries in their own rights to exist?

By your standards, do you know how many countries on this planet would have started a war with its neighbour, just because it was not able to get what it wants on political grounds? We would have a hundred wars per year, every year.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, which justifies a country to deny another sovereign country's right to exist, and kill its citizens. If you think otherwise, then I'm sorry for you.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1459
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:52 pm

Alfons wrote:
Oh, so you want to say by that, that Putin is a lion


I do hope (s)he didn't mean lion. A lion does what it has to do to survive and conjures up words and phrases such as "pride" and "king of the jungle".

Putin, on the other hand, is just an asshole.
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:58 pm

And then there is this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... -sanctions

It seems oligarchs are using cryptocurrencies to transfer money and buy stuff in Dubai.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21094
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:11 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
art wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
The time will come to rout the Russians out of Donbass and Crimea, which are Ukrainian territory. Anyone who resists is a valid military target.


Am I not right in thinking that the majority in Crimea approves Russian occupation? If true, how do you want the majority to be treated?


If they wanted to live in Russia, move to Russia. Simples.


Sometimes, the simplest solution....
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 15043
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:15 pm

Alfons wrote:
keesje wrote:
IMO Merkel fully inderstood Putin & could talk sense into him, because of their shared past. Now there is distance.


Oh, so you want to say by that, that Putin is a lion and we have to be nice with this beast of its own nature, otherwise we have to accept him to attack other sovereign countries in their own rights to exist?

By your standards, do you know how many countries on this planet would have started a war with its neighbour, just because it was not able to get what it wants on political grounds? We would have a hundred wars per year, every year.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, which justifies a country to deny another sovereign country's right to exist, and kill its citizens. If you think otherwise, then I'm sorry for you.


What a strange acquisition. I didn't say or mean anything you try put in my mouth. It seems stuff you make up on the spot. Should I defend myself against stuff I didn't say? Is that the way you think & communicate? War does strange things to human minds & here's prove...
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:17 pm

bikerthai wrote:
How about encouraging Ukrainians in occupied areas to allow Russian soldiers to borrow phones to text home and say they are alive.

It may even kick start grass root human relationships that is key to lasting peace.

bt

Russians loot telephones (among other things) from locals without any need for a goodwill gestures from our citizens.
The guy, who built our furniture, was trying to get out, but stumbled upon ruskie troops. They intended to loot all the phones from folks in the car, but grabbed only one before action started somewhere not far.
Fella was let go, and lived to tell the tale. All the better -- he's had a mini-stroke a year ago, and is forbidden stress by his doctors.
Cannot imagine him getting incapacitated by a second stroke. At the wheel. In the war zone.

Recordings also show that relatives in Russia are asking their kin in the warzone to look for iPhones. ruskie troops are asking friends back home to look up online the value of looted computer components. Or explaining to wives that they grabbed enough expensive clothing for both wife and daughter, including fur coats.

Lasting peace is possible with humans. ruskie has generations before that status is achievable to them.
Besides slaughter of civilians and destruction of civilian property, ruskies destroyed too much infrastructure. Auctioning off every litre of oil in the ground and every tree in the forest in Russia, and all Russian real estate worldwide, together with the owners, probably would be barely enough to pay for the damages.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
art wrote:

Am I not right in thinking that the majority in Crimea approves Russian occupation? If true, how do you want the majority to be treated?


If they wanted to live in Russia, move to Russia. Simples.


Sometimes, the simplest solution....

...in this case, the only correct one.

Если мучит ностальгия.... Чемодан. Вокзал. Россия!!
If nostalgia is unbearable, to the rashes... Suitcase. Railway. Russia!!
 
User avatar
Dahlgardo
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:46 am

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:20 pm

keesje wrote:
IMO Merkel fully inderstood Putin & could talk sense into him, because of their shared past. Now there is distance.


It's the other way around. Putin understood/read Merkel perfectly, and lured Germany to become dependent on Russian gas and remain naively pacifistic.
Remember how hard Germany fought for that Nord Stream 2 pipeline despite all the resistance from the US and others?

Merkel was played like a fool by Putin all along, and now we see Putins long planned endgame unfold.

Fortunately Putin is heading a corrupt military which in the end will let him down, but the war in Ukraine is a big part of Merkels legacy.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1764
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:32 pm

art wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
The time will come to rout the Russians out of Donbass and Crimea, which are Ukrainian territory. Anyone who resists is a valid military target.


Am I not right in thinking that the majority in Crimea approves Russian occupation? If true, how do you want the majority to be treated?


They should be treated just fine, unless they take up arms against the Ukrainian government. Then it becomes a police action to quell criminal violence using force. They would be best off laying down their arms and obeying their Ukrainian government.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1764
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:34 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
keesje wrote:
IMO Merkel fully inderstood Putin & could talk sense into him, because of their shared past. Now there is distance.


It's the other way around. Putin understood/read Merkel perfectly, and lured Germany to become dependent on Russian gas and remain naively pacifistic.
Remember how hard Germany fought for that Nord Stream 2 pipeline despite all the resistance from the US and others?

Merkel was played like a fool by Putin all along, and now we see Putins long planned endgame unfold.

Fortunately Putin is heading a corrupt military which in the end will let him down, but the war in Ukraine is a big part of Merkels legacy.


Merkel will go down in history as one of the dullest and worst major political leaders of the century.
 
slider
Posts: 7791
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:38 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
keesje wrote:
IMO Merkel fully inderstood Putin & could talk sense into him, because of their shared past. Now there is distance.


It's the other way around. Putin understood/read Merkel perfectly, and lured Germany to become dependent on Russian gas and remain naively pacifistic.
Remember how hard Germany fought for that Nord Stream 2 pipeline despite all the resistance from the US and others?

Merkel was played like a fool by Putin all along, and now we see Putins long planned endgame unfold.

Fortunately Putin is heading a corrupt military which in the end will let him down, but the war in Ukraine is a big part of Merkels legacy.


Merkel will go down in history as one of the dullest and worst major political leaders of the century.


Indeed she will.

And a strong nation such as Germany is reduced to being a Russian puppet because of horrible energy decisions. Merkel can't be bellicose because Putin owns Germany and she knows it.
 
johns624
Posts: 5540
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
art wrote:

Am I not right in thinking that the majority in Crimea approves Russian occupation? If true, how do you want the majority to be treated?


If they wanted to live in Russia, move to Russia. Simples.


Sometimes, the simplest solution....
Yes. They have to decide whether they are Ukrainians of Russian ancestry or Russians. If the latter, BYE!

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