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STT757
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:23 pm

bikerthai wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Doesn't sound like these missile systems are going to be delivered to Ukraine any time soon. I would love to see evidence to the contrary, though, so please share if you have.


Maybe we should step back and think this through a bit.

The US has promised to provide arms. It has provided most of the arm originally promised.

The first batch are arms that the Ukrainian already knows how to use.

The US promised more arms. And due to increased attacks on western Ukraine, it is no wonder we do not hear much about these shipments.

The second batch include arms that Ukraine have not used before but required only little amount training: the switch blade drones.

My bet is those drones are already in country. We will probably not know until videos of them in action are published because it is of operational advantage to not let the enemy known where they are being used.

That brings up the next set of hardware. . . Those that require lots more training to use: Patriot batteries, US tanks and Armored Vehicles, Shore defense missiles.

Of these, I would suspect the tanks will be the next easiest to learn.

So questions: anyone knows how much time it takes to train for the M-1 tanks, MRLS , Patriot Air defense, the Harpoons ground base missiles?

I would think the US would supply western made artillery, including MRLS before Harpoons.

My other bet is we would not know if the US will be sending these systems until they would have had Ukrainian crew secretly already trained and ready to go.

bt


With the revelation that the Russians tried to poison Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian peace negotiators it's clear what the prospects are for a negotiated cease fire. It's time to ramp up the military aide, however the type of stuff that the Ukrainians can use quickly are running out. The next tier of military support requires Ukrainians either pulled out and sent to NATO training sites or to have NATO volunteer to do it in Western Ukraine. I think one option is for Ukrainian aircraft/Helicopters to leave Ukraine to NATO bases where they can be modified and Ukrainian crews trained on Western Weapons systems. Systems like AGM-84 Harpoon and AGM-119 Penguin Anti ship missiles, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, AIM-120, AIM-9 etc.. An expedited program can probably reduce what would ordinarily need months down to weeks.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:40 pm

bikerthai wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
EDIT
This one is interesting
Abramovich and Ukrainian negotiators suffer poisonings symptoms.


And thus the start of chemical attack that we've been warned about.

And of course they will blame it on Biden's escalatory rhetoric.

bt
That happened over three weeks ago but WE aren't supposed to escalate.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:22 pm

M564038 wrote:
Agreed. He just said what needed to be said.
Putin needs to go. It is what every civilized person that consider themselves part of humanity see as self evident. To think or play up to some inpression that this is, or should be a controversial thing to say, is paying the fascist russians way too much respect. It is running their erand. Putin is a murder and a criminal of the worst degree, he also cheated in the last election, and do as such not command respect neither as a human nor as a proper state leader.

Vintage wrote:
Headline:
Biden's off-the-cuff remark on Putin sends shock waves!
(among the click bait headline writers of the media)

As for me, I consider his remark parallel to Reagan's "Tear down this wall". I applaud his putting pressure on Putin. It's too bad that so many want to undermine the message.


I find it ironic that finally Biden says something coherent and absolutely on point and he is getting vilified for it.
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:28 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Isn't there a conscription event coming up soon in Russia?

bt


I cannot give a reference but I remember reading that April 1 is a significant date for conscription in Russia. Call up for military service from April 1?
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Alfons wrote:
marcelh wrote:
The important part of the post is how Putin knowingly targeted civilians.

This is like the invasion of Finland, absolutely no thought on the optics.

To those who disagree:
I believe the threat was required to stop chemical weapons. How many must die for this megalomaniacs ambitions?

Evil must be stopped early.

Lightsaber


Evil was already there in 2014
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:36 pm

The Russian Armed Forces conscript men semi-annually, with the fall draft lasting from October 1 until December 31 and the spring draft running from April 1 until July 15.[3] In 2022,


Found a link.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgr ... bilization

bt
 
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william
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:46 pm

STT757 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Doesn't sound like these missile systems are going to be delivered to Ukraine any time soon. I would love to see evidence to the contrary, though, so please share if you have.


Maybe we should step back and think this through a bit.

The US has promised to provide arms. It has provided most of the arm originally promised.

The first batch are arms that the Ukrainian already knows how to use.

The US promised more arms. And due to increased attacks on western Ukraine, it is no wonder we do not hear much about these shipments.

The second batch include arms that Ukraine have not used before but required only little amount training: the switch blade drones.

My bet is those drones are already in country. We will probably not know until videos of them in action are published because it is of operational advantage to not let the enemy known where they are being used.

That brings up the next set of hardware. . . Those that require lots more training to use: Patriot batteries, US tanks and Armored Vehicles, Shore defense missiles.

Of these, I would suspect the tanks will be the next easiest to learn.

So questions: anyone knows how much time it takes to train for the M-1 tanks, MRLS , Patriot Air defense, the Harpoons ground base missiles?

I would think the US would supply western made artillery, including MRLS before Harpoons.

My other bet is we would not know if the US will be sending these systems until they would have had Ukrainian crew secretly already trained and ready to go.

bt


With the revelation that the Russians tried to poison Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian peace negotiators it's clear what the prospects are for a negotiated cease fire. It's time to ramp up the military aide, however the type of stuff that the Ukrainians can use quickly are running out. The next tier of military support requires Ukrainians either pulled out and sent to NATO training sites or to have NATO volunteer to do it in Western Ukraine. I think one option is for Ukrainian aircraft/Helicopters to leave Ukraine to NATO bases where they can be modified and Ukrainian crews trained on Western Weapons systems. Systems like AGM-84 Harpoon and AGM-119 Penguin Anti ship missiles, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, AIM-120, AIM-9 etc.. An expedited program can probably reduce what would ordinarily need months down to weeks.


You think western advisors are not there now?
 
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william
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:01 pm

This is when its gets dangerous for Ukraine. In this hyper Google world we live in, looking at the news feeds it seems like the media is moving on to different headline stories. When the world's attention span moves on and onto something else, how many of the world leaders will be picking up Zelensky's phone calls, or worse yet, his speeches fail to get the media's attention. We are a month into this already.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:22 pm

william wrote:
When the world's attention span moves on and onto something else, how many of the world leaders will be picking up Zelensky's phone calls, or worse yet, his speeches fail to get the media's attention.


Maybe this is when it is good to have an old time politician who is not glued to Twitter or You Tube in the White House. Having spent so many years in the Senate, Biden would be familiar with doing things slow and deliberate. Maybe too slow for some . . . But if it gets the job done . . .

Heck, that second batch of aid from the US seems like break neck speed to me. :duck:

by
Last edited by bikerthai on Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:23 pm

marcelh wrote:
Evil was already there in 2014

As were those living in permanent fear, who pretended not to see it.
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:50 pm

STT757 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
AeroVega wrote:
Doesn't sound like these missile systems are going to be delivered to Ukraine any time soon. I would love to see evidence to the contrary, though, so please share if you have.


Maybe we should step back and think this through a bit.

The US has promised to provide arms. It has provided most of the arm originally promised.

The first batch are arms that the Ukrainian already knows how to use.

The US promised more arms. And due to increased attacks on western Ukraine, it is no wonder we do not hear much about these shipments.

The second batch include arms that Ukraine have not used before but required only little amount training: the switch blade drones.

My bet is those drones are already in country. We will probably not know until videos of them in action are published because it is of operational advantage to not let the enemy known where they are being used.

That brings up the next set of hardware. . . Those that require lots more training to use: Patriot batteries, US tanks and Armored Vehicles, Shore defense missiles.

Of these, I would suspect the tanks will be the next easiest to learn.

So questions: anyone knows how much time it takes to train for the M-1 tanks, MRLS , Patriot Air defense, the Harpoons ground base missiles?

I would think the US would supply western made artillery, including MRLS before Harpoons.

My other bet is we would not know if the US will be sending these systems until they would have had Ukrainian crew secretly already trained and ready to go.

bt


With the revelation that the Russians tried to poison Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian peace negotiators it's clear what the prospects are for a negotiated cease fire. It's time to ramp up the military aide, however the type of stuff that the Ukrainians can use quickly are running out. The next tier of military support requires Ukrainians either pulled out and sent to NATO training sites or to have NATO volunteer to do it in Western Ukraine. I think one option is for Ukrainian aircraft/Helicopters to leave Ukraine to NATO bases where they can be modified and Ukrainian crews trained on Western Weapons systems. Systems like AGM-84 Harpoon and AGM-119 Penguin Anti ship missiles, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, AIM-120, AIM-9 etc.. An expedited program can probably reduce what would ordinarily need months down to weeks.

Regarding the poisening; I am a little bit doubtful, as it is not confirmed from any site.
We have only seen red eyes and a rash and this for only three person and all three were able to work further. Sorry this is nothing really special and can be easily explained by other reasons than poisening. A really bad working air conditioner can also do this and it will affect only some who are more sensitive...like me!
Dry skin, dry eyes which really fast get red and will stay red for days, Dry skin can end up with rash between my fingers, behind my ears e.g. And of all others one or two have in best case dry eyes....

I have no problems else, like extreme dry and cold weather outside were others get really bad problems with their skin, I have regular only problems with air conditioners. It can also be one of the thousands of regular virus infections, which have some effects to few sensitive but do not really harm. Or bad cheap new furnitures with some bad volatile solvents, or wrongly stored e.g.
Seems there is nothing really common by these, who got sick.

This story is just a little bit thin, seems also no one has stopped working and overall the symptoms were only light....
This does not exclude poisening, but is also no proove for anything and even not a really hint for poisening.
The story is thin....
Last edited by T4thH on Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:52 pm

T4thH wrote:
STT757 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

Maybe we should step back and think this through a bit.

The US has promised to provide arms. It has provided most of the arm originally promised.

The first batch are arms that the Ukrainian already knows how to use.

The US promised more arms. And due to increased attacks on western Ukraine, it is no wonder we do not hear much about these shipments.

The second batch include arms that Ukraine have not used before but required only little amount training: the switch blade drones.

My bet is those drones are already in country. We will probably not know until videos of them in action are published because it is of operational advantage to not let the enemy known where they are being used.

That brings up the next set of hardware. . . Those that require lots more training to use: Patriot batteries, US tanks and Armored Vehicles, Shore defense missiles.

Of these, I would suspect the tanks will be the next easiest to learn.

So questions: anyone knows how much time it takes to train for the M-1 tanks, MRLS , Patriot Air defense, the Harpoons ground base missiles?

I would think the US would supply western made artillery, including MRLS before Harpoons.

My other bet is we would not know if the US will be sending these systems until they would have had Ukrainian crew secretly already trained and ready to go.

bt


With the revelation that the Russians tried to poison Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian peace negotiators it's clear what the prospects are for a negotiated cease fire. It's time to ramp up the military aide, however the type of stuff that the Ukrainians can use quickly are running out. The next tier of military support requires Ukrainians either pulled out and sent to NATO training sites or to have NATO volunteer to do it in Western Ukraine. I think one option is for Ukrainian aircraft/Helicopters to leave Ukraine to NATO bases where they can be modified and Ukrainian crews trained on Western Weapons systems. Systems like AGM-84 Harpoon and AGM-119 Penguin Anti ship missiles, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, AIM-120, AIM-9 etc.. An expedited program can probably reduce what would ordinarily need months down to weeks.

Regarding the poisening; I am a little bit doubtful, as it is not confirmed from any site.
We have only seen red eyes and a rash and this for only three person and all three were able to work further. Sorry this is nothing really specialand can be easily explained by other reason than poisening. A really bad working air conditioner can also do this and it will affect only some who are more sensitive...like me!
Dry skin, dry eyes which really fast get red and stays for days, Dry skin can end up with rash between my fingers, behind my ears e.g.
I have no problems else, like extreme dry and cold weather outside were others get really bad problems with their skin, I have regular only problems with air conditioners. It can also be one of the thousansds of regular virus infections, which have some effects to few sensitive but do not really harm. Or bad cheap new furnitures with some bad volatile solvents, or wrongly stored e.g.
Seems there is nothing really common by these, who got sick.

This story is just a little bit thin, seems also no one has stopped working and overall the symptoms were only light....
This does not exclude poisening, but is also no proove for anything and even not a really hint for poisening.
The story is thin....


How often symptoms like described come with loss of vision that lasts several hours?
And why only 3 people in there experienced it? How I know this? russia would LOVE if that would happen to them.
They would have all the "proof" of Ukraine chemical weapons aspirations they ever needed.
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:01 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
T4thH wrote:
STT757 wrote:

With the revelation that the Russians tried to poison Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian peace negotiators it's clear what the prospects are for a negotiated cease fire. It's time to ramp up the military aide, however the type of stuff that the Ukrainians can use quickly are running out. The next tier of military support requires Ukrainians either pulled out and sent to NATO training sites or to have NATO volunteer to do it in Western Ukraine. I think one option is for Ukrainian aircraft/Helicopters to leave Ukraine to NATO bases where they can be modified and Ukrainian crews trained on Western Weapons systems. Systems like AGM-84 Harpoon and AGM-119 Penguin Anti ship missiles, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, AIM-120, AIM-9 etc.. An expedited program can probably reduce what would ordinarily need months down to weeks.

Regarding the poisening; I am a little bit doubtful, as it is not confirmed from any site.
We have only seen red eyes and a rash and this for only three person and all three were able to work further. Sorry this is nothing really specialand can be easily explained by other reason than poisening. A really bad working air conditioner can also do this and it will affect only some who are more sensitive...like me!
Dry skin, dry eyes which really fast get red and stays for days, Dry skin can end up with rash between my fingers, behind my ears e.g.
I have no problems else, like extreme dry and cold weather outside were others get really bad problems with their skin, I have regular only problems with air conditioners. It can also be one of the thousansds of regular virus infections, which have some effects to few sensitive but do not really harm. Or bad cheap new furnitures with some bad volatile solvents, or wrongly stored e.g.
Seems there is nothing really common by these, who got sick.

This story is just a little bit thin, seems also no one has stopped working and overall the symptoms were only light....
This does not exclude poisening, but is also no proove for anything and even not a really hint for poisening.
The story is thin....


How often symptoms like described come with loss of vision that lasts several hours?
And why only 3 people in there experienced it? How I know this? russia would LOVE if that would happen to them.
They would have all the "proof" of Ukraine chemical weapons aspirations they ever needed.

I have not read in news of loss of vision. I am talking about news, and what I have read, is skin disorder and red painful watery eyes. So I am not talking about...Twitter or Telegram, also not FOX. I have not checked, but this shall be also the symptoms stated by Bellingcat. And even Bellingcat seems to state the whole story as doubtful.

I do not know, when the "loss of vision" has been added and where...Twitter? Telegram? Reddit?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:07 pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.co ... 1648480493

From the WSJ.

Symptoms including peeling of skin on the face and hands.

My wife had a couple shell fish allergic reactions where rashes appeared all over the body. But never flaking of skin and hands.

Note that the face and hands are probably the only item exposed to the environment or contaminated washing water/hand towel.

bt
 
cpd
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:21 pm

Also confirmed from SMH:

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/rom ... 5a8r0.html

Awfully dubious. Another poisoning attempt by the Kremlin?

And will one of these oligarchs retaliate against Putin? These guys have mega wealth so you’d imagine they’d be able to pull together resources to attempt it…
Last edited by cpd on Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:28 pm

T4thH wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Regarding the poisening; I am a little bit doubtful, as it is not confirmed from any site.
We have only seen red eyes and a rash and this for only three person and all three were able to work further. Sorry this is nothing really specialand can be easily explained by other reason than poisening. A really bad working air conditioner can also do this and it will affect only some who are more sensitive...like me!
Dry skin, dry eyes which really fast get red and stays for days, Dry skin can end up with rash between my fingers, behind my ears e.g.
I have no problems else, like extreme dry and cold weather outside were others get really bad problems with their skin, I have regular only problems with air conditioners. It can also be one of the thousansds of regular virus infections, which have some effects to few sensitive but do not really harm. Or bad cheap new furnitures with some bad volatile solvents, or wrongly stored e.g.
Seems there is nothing really common by these, who got sick.

This story is just a little bit thin, seems also no one has stopped working and overall the symptoms were only light....
This does not exclude poisening, but is also no proove for anything and even not a really hint for poisening.
The story is thin....


How often symptoms like described come with loss of vision that lasts several hours?
And why only 3 people in there experienced it? How I know this? russia would LOVE if that would happen to them.
They would have all the "proof" of Ukraine chemical weapons aspirations they ever needed.

I have not read in news of loss of vision. I am talking about news, and what I have read, is skin disorder and red painful watery eyes. So I am not talking about...Twitter or Telegram, also not FOX. I have not checked, but this shall be also the symptoms stated by Bellingcat. And even Bellingcat seems to state the whole story as doubtful.

I do not know, when the "loss of vision" has been added and where...Twitter? Telegram? Reddit?


Definitely not CNN which I'm sure would make you happy but should do.
https://www.ft.com/content/b7315885-0ee ... 2e5225be06
 
Toenga
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:33 pm

It is a dilemma.
Any territory given to Russia will amount to a win for Putin and a loss to the Ukranian people.
Just not as big a win for Putin as he would have liked but still he could see it as some justification for throwing aside the limitations of "civilised" world behaviour.
The reality is this war is a horrendous loss to both Ukraine and Russia. Just only Putin and a few select cronies stood to gain anything from it.
So really anything other then Ukraine reestablishing it's control of all the land within it's borders, including Crimea, represents a degree of victory to Putin.
Given this, any other resolution requires Putin to step away, or be put away.
The view, undiplomatically articulated by Biden.
What Biden said, was sensible, but it probably was more sensible to have left it unsaid, but covertly continued with efforts to facilitate it.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:41 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Evil was already there in 2014

As were those living in permanent fear, who pretended not to see it.
+1 The hypocrisy is glaring.
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:44 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
T4thH wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

How often symptoms like described come with loss of vision that lasts several hours?
And why only 3 people in there experienced it? How I know this? russia would LOVE if that would happen to them.
They would have all the "proof" of Ukraine chemical weapons aspirations they ever needed.

I have not read in news of loss of vision. I am talking about news, and what I have read, is skin disorder and red painful watery eyes. So I am not talking about...Twitter or Telegram, also not FOX. I have not checked, but this shall be also the symptoms stated by Bellingcat. And even Bellingcat seems to state the whole story as doubtful.

I do not know, when the "loss of vision" has been added and where...Twitter? Telegram? Reddit?


Definitely not CNN which I'm sure would make you happy but should do.
https://www.ft.com/content/b7315885-0ee ... 2e5225be06

It is behind a paywall. Are they stating "loss of vision" symptom?
I haxe this in German, and state that may have doubts. Anf nowhere something regarding loss of vision.
https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Abramowitsch-und-ukrainische-Delegation-vergiftet-article23230456.html
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:57 pm

T4thH wrote:
Are they stating "loss of vision" symptom?


Why so fixated on "loss of vision"? There were other symptoms that don't necessarily match those of allergic reactions.

And there are multiple ways to "poison" a person without having something ingested, including methods not meant for death as is the current running theory for this case.

And yes, press clipping is not proof. And authorities have admit that there is little chance of finding proof. So we here can only speculate.

bt
 
tomcat
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:57 pm

Incidentally we learn that Abramovitch, who is close to Putin, is going back and forth to Kiev. Does that mean that the Russian army is refraining bombing Kiev while Abramovitch is in town?

About the suspicion of poisoning, skin rashes can simply be covid symptoms:
https://theconversation.com/8-ways-the-coronavirus-can-affect-your-skin-from-covid-toes-to-rashes-and-hair-loss-144483
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:00 pm

Toenga wrote:
It is a dilemma.
Any territory given to Russia will amount to a win for Putin and a loss to the Ukranian people.
Just not as big a win for Putin as he would have liked but still he could see it as some justification for throwing aside the limitations of "civilised" world behaviour.
The reality is this war is a horrendous loss to both Ukraine and Russia. Just only Putin and a few select cronies stood to gain anything from it.
So really anything other then Ukraine reestablishing it's control of all the land within it's borders, including Crimea, represents a degree of victory to Putin.
Given this, any other resolution requires Putin to step away, or be put away.
The view, undiplomatically articulated by Biden.
What Biden said, was sensible, but it probably was more sensible to have left it unsaid, but covertly continued with efforts to facilitate it.


It would have been better if said by others.

Any change of borders from those that existed prior to 24 February or even February 2014 will result in western sanctions staying in place.
Last edited by flyingclrs727 on Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:00 pm

marcelh wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Alfons wrote:


Evil was already there in 2014

Is that before or after Nord2 and increased imports from Russia?
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:03 pm

william wrote:
STT757 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

Maybe we should step back and think this through a bit.

The US has promised to provide arms. It has provided most of the arm originally promised.

The first batch are arms that the Ukrainian already knows how to use.

The US promised more arms. And due to increased attacks on western Ukraine, it is no wonder we do not hear much about these shipments.

The second batch include arms that Ukraine have not used before but required only little amount training: the switch blade drones.

My bet is those drones are already in country. We will probably not know until videos of them in action are published because it is of operational advantage to not let the enemy known where they are being used.

That brings up the next set of hardware. . . Those that require lots more training to use: Patriot batteries, US tanks and Armored Vehicles, Shore defense missiles.

Of these, I would suspect the tanks will be the next easiest to learn.

So questions: anyone knows how much time it takes to train for the M-1 tanks, MRLS , Patriot Air defense, the Harpoons ground base missiles?

I would think the US would supply western made artillery, including MRLS before Harpoons.

My other bet is we would not know if the US will be sending these systems until they would have had Ukrainian crew secretly already trained and ready to go.

bt


With the revelation that the Russians tried to poison Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian peace negotiators it's clear what the prospects are for a negotiated cease fire. It's time to ramp up the military aide, however the type of stuff that the Ukrainians can use quickly are running out. The next tier of military support requires Ukrainians either pulled out and sent to NATO training sites or to have NATO volunteer to do it in Western Ukraine. I think one option is for Ukrainian aircraft/Helicopters to leave Ukraine to NATO bases where they can be modified and Ukrainian crews trained on Western Weapons systems. Systems like AGM-84 Harpoon and AGM-119 Penguin Anti ship missiles, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, AIM-120, AIM-9 etc.. An expedited program can probably reduce what would ordinarily need months down to weeks.


You think western advisors are not there now?

I would say if any they would be a real select few, imagine if a Russian special forces team captured one and had on display in Red Square, right now Putin is claiming NATO issues as his reason for war, imagine what it would do for him to have a captive BEFORE the west declares full involvement.
 
cpd
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:06 pm

Toenga wrote:
It is a dilemma.
Any territory given to Russia will amount to a win for Putin and a loss to the Ukranian people.
Just not as big a win for Putin as he would have liked but still he could see it as some justification for throwing aside the limitations of "civilised" world behaviour.
The reality is this war is a horrendous loss to both Ukraine and Russia. Just only Putin and a few select cronies stood to gain anything from it.
So really anything other then Ukraine reestablishing it's control of all the land within it's borders, including Crimea, represents a degree of victory to Putin.
Given this, any other resolution requires Putin to step away, or be put away.
The view, undiplomatically articulated by Biden.
What Biden said, was sensible, but it probably was more sensible to have left it unsaid, but covertly continued with efforts to facilitate it.



Biden’s comments also force his rivals at home to choose to side with the civilised world or side with Putin.

“You are with us or against us”
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:15 pm

Thankfully the tone of this thread has changed.....
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60901024
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:25 pm

bikerthai wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Are they stating "loss of vision" symptom?


Why so fixated on "loss of vision"? There were other symptoms that don't necessarily match those of allergic reactions.

And there are multiple ways to "poison" a person without having something ingested, including methods not meant for death as is the current running theory for this case.

And yes, press clipping is not proof. And authorities have admit that there is little chance of finding proof. So we here can only speculate.

bt


WHICH OTHER NOW? Which additional do you have, they shall have had according which sources, with exception of skin rash at face and hands, so these parts of the skin WHICH ARE NOT PROTECTED TO THE ENVIROMENTAL, like by hairs or clothes? And of course the red watery eyes? And this all for one shit night on 03-Mar?
Please note, your skin really hates extreme cold and dry air, as you have as example in mid of wimter. And your skin hates fast temperature changes and any form of extreme dry air, as excample in the middle of a shit cold winter, when the cold dry air is warmed up to room temperature. The humidity of air is depending of the temperature. So if as excample -20°C air with a humidity of 80% is heated up to +20°C, the humidity of the 20°C air is going in direction to zero. Or correct calculated: 3.5% at +20°C. And for your eyes it is the same.

On 03-Mar-2022 was still winter in Kiev some nights have been extremely cold in Ukraine it was even down to -20°C.

Sorry, the story is even getting thinner and thinner, especially as I am preety sure, that the skin of the Oligarch Abramovich, only living there, where the weather is not any more so bad in winter times as London or somewhere in the Mediterraine, is not any more trained for such enviromental conditions.
 
oldJoe
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:02 pm

par13del wrote:
Thankfully the tone of this thread has changed.....
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60901024


Only a (very) tiny bit in my opinion because this from the article :
"We're certainly not willing to give up any territory or talk about our territorial integrity,"

Anybody who believes that Putin leaves the Donbass and or Criminea is a dreamer.
Can also be tactic from the Ukrainians here, because now rainy time will come and everybody who was in this region in April knows what this means.
Melting snow and rain make the ground impassable for many vehicles. They therefore have to stay on the road, which makes them a nice target. Where it rains there are also clouds and fighter jets or helicopters have to fly lower and are therefore easier to attack . Welcome to the Ukrainian mud !
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:37 pm

oldJoe wrote:
par13del wrote:
Thankfully the tone of this thread has changed.....
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60901024


Only a (very) tiny bit in my opinion because this from the article :
"We're certainly not willing to give up any territory or talk about our territorial integrity,"

Anybody who believes that Putin leaves the Donbass and or Criminea is a dreamer.
Can also be tactic from the Ukrainians here, because now rainy time will come and everybody who was in this region in April knows what this means.
Melting snow and rain make the ground impassable for many vehicles. They therefore have to stay on the road, which makes them a nice target. Where it rains there are also clouds and fighter jets or helicopters have to fly lower and are therefore easier to attack . Welcome to the Ukrainian mud !

I thought he also talked about Ukraine being neutral and not joining NATO?
Tantamount to heresy on here.....
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:17 am

cpd wrote:
Toenga wrote:
It is a dilemma.
Any territory given to Russia will amount to a win for Putin and a loss to the Ukranian people.
Just not as big a win for Putin as he would have liked but still he could see it as some justification for throwing aside the limitations of "civilised" world behaviour.
The reality is this war is a horrendous loss to both Ukraine and Russia. Just only Putin and a few select cronies stood to gain anything from it.
So really anything other then Ukraine reestablishing it's control of all the land within it's borders, including Crimea, represents a degree of victory to Putin.
Given this, any other resolution requires Putin to step away, or be put away.
The view, undiplomatically articulated by Biden.
What Biden said, was sensible, but it probably was more sensible to have left it unsaid, but covertly continued with efforts to facilitate it.



Biden’s comments also force his rivals at home to choose to side with the civilised world or side with Putin.

“You are with us or against us”


Indeed. There are certain times when a nation should put its own internal politics / division aside and support their leader 100%. This is one of those times.
 
cpd
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:24 am

par13del wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
par13del wrote:
Thankfully the tone of this thread has changed.....
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60901024


Only a (very) tiny bit in my opinion because this from the article :
"We're certainly not willing to give up any territory or talk about our territorial integrity,"

Anybody who believes that Putin leaves the Donbass and or Criminea is a dreamer.
Can also be tactic from the Ukrainians here, because now rainy time will come and everybody who was in this region in April knows what this means.
Melting snow and rain make the ground impassable for many vehicles. They therefore have to stay on the road, which makes them a nice target. Where it rains there are also clouds and fighter jets or helicopters have to fly lower and are therefore easier to attack . Welcome to the Ukrainian mud !

I thought he also talked about Ukraine being neutral and not joining NATO?
Tantamount to heresy on here.....


With lots of qualifications, such as the change needing to go to a referendum IIRC.

It might also be a rallying call for other nations.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:17 am

Virtual737 wrote:
There are certain times when a nation should put its own internal politics / division aside and support their leader 100%. This is one of those times.


I disagree. Even in the darkest of times, you still need detractors just to keep leaders honest. Even those who lead with the best intention can make bad decisions from time to time.

by
 
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alberchico
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:02 am

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1508 ... 95810.html

A very interesting thread on what Russia's future may hold if it becomes further isolated from the world stage. I agree with the sentiment that Putin has bet the farm on this war and if it becomes a spectacular failure like Afghanistan, then it's the end of his presidency. Putin knows that as well, and has no choice but to push on. A victory in Ukraine, no matter how bloody and brutal, is his only way out. That makes negotiating any meaningful ceasefire deal difficult. This is going to turn into a brutal war of attrition where Ukraine ultimately prevails but loses huge chunks of territory and is left in ruins, its economy shattered and its citizens traumatized. :mad:
 
Cardude2
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:07 am

Oh the poisoning has been as confirmed as it will get
Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian peace negotiators suffered symptoms of suspected poisoning after a meeting in Kyiv earlier this month, people familiar with the matter said.

Mr. Abramovich, Ukrainian lawmaker Rustem Umerov and another negotiator developed symptoms following the March 3 meeting in Kyiv that included red eyes, constant and painful tearing, and peeling skin on their faces and hands, the people said. Mr. Abramovich has shuttled between Moscow, Belarus and other negotiating venues since Russia invaded Ukraine.

Mr. Abramovich was blinded for a few hours and later had trouble eating, according to a person familiar with the matter.

Some of the people familiar with the matter blamed the suspected attack on hard-liners in Moscow who they said wanted to sabotage talks to end the war. A person close to Mr. Abramovich said it wasn’t clear who had targeted the group… Western experts who looked into the incident said it was hard to determine whether the symptoms were caused by a chemical or biological agent or by some sort of electromagnetic-radiation attack, the people familiar with the matter said.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.co ... 1648480493
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:35 am

bikerthai wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
There are certain times when a nation should put its own internal politics / division aside and support their leader 100%. This is one of those times.


I disagree. Even in the darkest of times, you still need detractors just to keep leaders honest. Even those who lead with the best intention can make bad decisions from time to time.

by


I believe it's that constant, unrelenting division that gives people like Putin the impetus to do what he does.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:12 am

par13del wrote:
I thought he also talked about Ukraine being neutral and not joining NATO?
Tantamount to heresy on here.....


He also attached a number of conditions that Putin will never agree to and, as far as I understand it, would be subject to a referendum per the constitution.

The key point being, that would be a decision for the Ukrainian people, not Putin.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:46 am

One from Braybuddy in the "News" thread:

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/818811.html

I wonder how much of it is true as surely you wouldn't want to reveal all your secrets/sources no matter how vague the implication might be?
Or is it just to send the russians on a wild goose chase and nobody to trust anybody anymore in the upper echelons of power?
But that might make Putin even more paranoid than he already is.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:29 am

ReverseFlow wrote:
I wonder how much of it is true as surely you wouldn't want to reveal all your secrets/sources no matter how vague the implication might be?
Or is it just to send the russians on a wild goose chase and nobody to trust anybody anymore in the upper echelons of power?


What is the objective truth is somewhat irrelevant, it is what the enemy believes or perceives as truth that really matters. Feeding Putin's paranoia and distrust, when even the closest henchmen no longer get Putin's ear and he feels the FSB/GRU failed him and gave him wrong intel (not realizing, he can only blame himself for being told only what he expects to hear) might be a very effective strategy. He might be tempted purge the top echelons of the military, inteligence agencies, power ministries, which in turn might prompt self-preservation instincts of those to be purged, who in turn will get rid of Putin before he gets rid of them.
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:08 am

par13del wrote:
marcelh wrote:
lightsaber wrote:


Evil was already there in 2014

Is that before or after Nord2 and increased imports from Russia?


I wasn't talking about imports from Russia and Nordstream 2. It was about President Biden and his brain fart that made it to his mouth and IMO that doesn't help Ukraine or this war. But agree to disagree.

Blame me, Europeans, the EU and especially France and Germany for being nice with Russia after MH17, but I can see some similarities how the USA was being nice with Saudi Arabia after 9/11.
 
JJJ
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:50 am

Virtual737 wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
There are certain times when a nation should put its own internal politics / division aside and support their leader 100%. This is one of those times.


I disagree. Even in the darkest of times, you still need detractors just to keep leaders honest. Even those who lead with the best intention can make bad decisions from time to time.

by


I believe it's that constant, unrelenting division that gives people like Putin the impetus to do what he does.


And, though not created by him, he's had a very good hand at riding that wave and amplifying it to weaken the West political discourse.

The way Russia's actions in social media have amplified the extremes of the political discourse will be the topic of hundreds of books in the future.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:12 pm

Not that I feel inclined to believe anything Russia says, but...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60890199
Russia's deputy defence minister Alexander Fomin says Russia will "radically reduce" military activity outside Kyiv and Chernihiv - that's according to the news agency Tass.


I'm sure the fact that Russian forces have actually been pushed back around Kyiv is just a coincidence. :liar:
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:14 pm

US to increase production due to volume of Stinger and Javelin missles being sent to Ukraine. I had no idea the Stinger production line had been shut down.
Per the link:
By March 7, less than two weeks into Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the US and other NATO members had sent about 17,000 anti-tank missiles and 2,000 anti-aircraft missiles to Ukraine. Since then, that number has certainly increased but an update has not been made public.


At a production rate of 6,000 Javelin missiles per year, that has this war consuming the production amazingly quickly. The Ukrainians get credit for the defense, but as we're approaching (if not over) 20,000 missiles, having ammo doesn't hurt in the least.

Lightsaber
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pe ... NewsSearch
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
Not that I feel inclined to believe anything Russia says, but...


I believe him. I mean, if you run out of supplies and can't bring up more, then by default, you have to reduce offensive activities. :twisted:

bt
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:04 pm

lightsaber wrote:
US to increase production due to volume of Stinger and Javelin missles being sent to Ukraine. I had no idea the Stinger production line had been shut down.
Per the link:
By March 7, less than two weeks into Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the US and other NATO members had sent about 17,000 anti-tank missiles and 2,000 anti-aircraft missiles to Ukraine. Since then, that number has certainly increased but an update has not been made public.


At a production rate of 6,000 Javelin missiles per year, that has this war consuming the production amazingly quickly. The Ukrainians get credit for the defense, but as we're approaching (if not over) 20,000 missiles, having ammo doesn't hurt in the least.

Lightsaber
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pe ... NewsSearch
From the article it says they want 500 Stingers a day.
Surely with that amount you'd be able to cover all Ukraine in a bit!
 
sabenapilot
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:15 pm

Everything going according to plan, eh? ;)

Which one are they at now in the Kremlin, because so far I've seen:

Plan A:
Overwhelm Ukraine by a quick invasion from 3 sides, make the government in Kyiv flee, install a puppet leadership in its place to take care of urgent matters.
Have this plan start on Thursday, so as to have it over with by the end of the weekend and create minimal economic impact to your own economy.
See a friendly regime in Ukraine organize fake elections and then have them sign up to surrender Crimea and the Donbas.
Done.
FAIL

Plan B:
Continue the assault to force the goverment in Kyiv to surrender, threaten others not to intervene in their help and flash your nuclear weapons as ultimate deterrent.
Keep your stockmarkets closed for the time being so as to hide the economic impact this extended 'special operation' is now causing you.
Increase your assaults and crack down on anybody reporting about you going rough or the number of casualties.
Done.
FAIL.

Plan C:
Refocus on the coastline of Ukraine, trying to establish a land bridge between Crimea and Donbas, as well as capture Odessa and thus connect to Transnistria.
Turn Mariupol and other cities on this landbridge into little Stalingrads all in an effort to landlock Ukraine and unite all Russians in 'novorussia' with Russia proper.
Lock everybody up who dares to call this a war and decry those who call you a war criminal.
Done
FAIL

Plan D:
Pretend all of the above was just a clever way to weaken your adversary and that your aim was just to liberate the Donbas (which you've held anyway)
Pretend you've only lost 1,300 or something soldiers in all of the above, refusing to collect at least 3 times as many bodybags held by the IRC.
Declare victory and wage terror at home against those who don't agree (while punishing those who you think are responsible for the failure of Plan A, B and C)
To be done still.
Likely a FAIL too.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:31 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
US to increase production due to volume of Stinger and Javelin missles being sent to Ukraine. I had no idea the Stinger production line had been shut down.
Per the link:
By March 7, less than two weeks into Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the US and other NATO members had sent about 17,000 anti-tank missiles and 2,000 anti-aircraft missiles to Ukraine. Since then, that number has certainly increased but an update has not been made public.


At a production rate of 6,000 Javelin missiles per year, that has this war consuming the production amazingly quickly. The Ukrainians get credit for the defense, but as we're approaching (if not over) 20,000 missiles, having ammo doesn't hurt in the least.

Lightsaber
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pe ... NewsSearch
From the article it says they want 500 Stingers a day.
Surely with that amount you'd be able to cover all Ukraine in a bit!

They want to end this war! I've read elsewhere 500 stingers per week. Meh, more is better.

I'm still amazed Ukraine is soldiering on! This is a true David vs. Goliath.

Russia will decrease military activity around Kyiv to improve trust in negotiations:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ru ... NewsSearch

Retreat for strength?

Lightsaber
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
Not that I feel inclined to believe anything Russia says, but...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60890199
Russia's deputy defence minister Alexander Fomin says Russia will "radically reduce" military activity outside Kyiv and Chernihiv - that's according to the news agency Tass.


I'm sure the fact that Russian forces have actually been pushed back around Kyiv is just a coincidence. :liar:



Or that that lost another colonel/general in Ukraine. #8 now.

There was a meme on Snapchat that I shared few days ago. It’s a safety sign at work, with 0 days since last accident, but for Russian generals. LOL

“ The Ukrainian Armed Forces announced on Tuesday that Colonel Denis Kurilo, the commander of the 200th separate motorized rifle brigade, was killed outside Kharkiv.

Kurilo’s reported death, on the 34th day of the Kremlin’s “special operation,” comes after at least seven Russian generals were killed in Ukraine, according to both Ukrainian and Western officials.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-forc ... 39836.html
 
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william
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:49 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Toenga wrote:
It is a dilemma.
Any territory given to Russia will amount to a win for Putin and a loss to the Ukranian people.
Just not as big a win for Putin as he would have liked but still he could see it as some justification for throwing aside the limitations of "civilised" world behaviour.
The reality is this war is a horrendous loss to both Ukraine and Russia. Just only Putin and a few select cronies stood to gain anything from it.
So really anything other then Ukraine reestablishing it's control of all the land within it's borders, including Crimea, represents a degree of victory to Putin.
Given this, any other resolution requires Putin to step away, or be put away.
The view, undiplomatically articulated by Biden.
What Biden said, was sensible, but it probably was more sensible to have left it unsaid, but covertly continued with efforts to facilitate it.


It would have been better if said by others.

Any change of borders from those that existed prior to 24 February or even February 2014 will result in western sanctions staying in place.


Prediction, if there is a peace settlement, removal of some sanctions will happen.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:04 pm

lightsaber wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
US to increase production due to volume of Stinger and Javelin missles being sent to Ukraine. I had no idea the Stinger production line had been shut down.
Per the link:
By March 7, less than two weeks into Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the US and other NATO members had sent about 17,000 anti-tank missiles and 2,000 anti-aircraft missiles to Ukraine. Since then, that number has certainly increased but an update has not been made public.


At a production rate of 6,000 Javelin missiles per year, that has this war consuming the production amazingly quickly. The Ukrainians get credit for the defense, but as we're approaching (if not over) 20,000 missiles, having ammo doesn't hurt in the least.

Lightsaber
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pe ... NewsSearch
From the article it says they want 500 Stingers a day.
Surely with that amount you'd be able to cover all Ukraine in a bit!

They want to end this war! I've read elsewhere 500 stingers per week. Meh, more is better.

I'm still amazed Ukraine is soldiering on! This is a true David vs. Goliath.

Russia will decrease military activity around Kyiv to improve trust in negotiations:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ru ... NewsSearch

Retreat for strength?

Lightsaber



According to either US or Ukrainian estimates, more Russians have been killed in the first month of this "special operation" than in the entire Afghan war in 10 years. Sounds like strong motivation to get out.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:16 pm

william wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Toenga wrote:
It is a dilemma.
Any territory given to Russia will amount to a win for Putin and a loss to the Ukranian people.
Just not as big a win for Putin as he would have liked but still he could see it as some justification for throwing aside the limitations of "civilised" world behaviour.
The reality is this war is a horrendous loss to both Ukraine and Russia. Just only Putin and a few select cronies stood to gain anything from it.
So really anything other then Ukraine reestablishing it's control of all the land within it's borders, including Crimea, represents a degree of victory to Putin.
Given this, any other resolution requires Putin to step away, or be put away.
The view, undiplomatically articulated by Biden.
What Biden said, was sensible, but it probably was more sensible to have left it unsaid, but covertly continued with efforts to facilitate it.


It would have been better if said by others.

Any change of borders from those that existed prior to 24 February or even February 2014 will result in western sanctions staying in place.


Prediction, if there is a peace settlement, removal of some sanctions will happen.


A Russian ceasefire should certainly NOT be the cue for any easing of sanctions.

Once a complete Russian withdrawal has been implemented and reparations agreed, then maybe we can start thinking about the sanctions situation.

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