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Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:55 am

bikerthai wrote:
With a range of 40-90 km, its almost like a mini cruise missile.
They would have to use them strategically.
Wonder if 10 is all they have available now.bt

All the data I see from a Google search shows their range as 25mi / 40km and the whole missile only weighs 50lbs, so the warhead can't be much more than about 5lbs, although it is a shaped charge.

A Tomahawk weighs almost 3,000 lbs with 1,000 lbs of that being warhead; it has a range of 1,500 mi. So more like a micro mini cruise missile. :lol:

They will take out a tank, (just like a javelin or NLAW). Ukraine has received thousands of NLAWS and Javelins, so 10 of these things isn't much to crow about.
I'm sure the DoD has more than 10 available but somebody doesn't want to give them up.
 
FGITD
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:08 am

Chemist wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Aesma wrote:

The main difference between Europeans and Americans is that we have experienced war, its atrocities and its consequences, on our soil, within living memory.


Americans are a military paradox. The armed forces are amongst the most experienced in the world overall due to the constant fights they’ve been involved in. But the American people, as you mention, have never experienced war. War for most Americans is on the 10pm news, and is fought by putting up a flag. Not that it’s something to complain or criticize over…it’s unfortunate that it can’t be that way for everyone.

It changes your perspective when you go to small towns in France, or England, or even Germany and you see monuments with hundreds of names on them.


I appreciate your point, but I did go to Pearl Harbor and see a monument with hundreds of names on it. I also went to Washington DC and saw a memorial with thousands of names on it.


There’s a world of difference between a one day attack on your country, and sustained war in all parts of it for months or years. That’s what I’m referring to.

There’s no sense in trying to compare sacrifice. But it certainly does hit differently when you see some of those monuments and in one small town of a few thousand, you see the same family name over and over again.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:09 am

alberchico wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1510964257223020547

Wow, Even for Fox News this is a stupid take.

This twitter thread gives us a brief history of what Russia has done over the years.

https://mobile.twitter.com/EasyRid04682 ... 2813666304


To paraphrase Carlson:

“What if these Tucker Carlson is a Russian agent who wants Russia to crush US interests? What if his declaration of loyalty to the US is diversion? What if he’s actually a pro-Russia fanatic who pretends to be a right leaning nationalist so that no one questions his loyalty to the US? I’m not saying any of this is true, I’m just asking the questions.”

It’s so absurd, I don’t know why his viewers are having a hard time seeing through it. Are they really that gullible?

I think Biden Derangement Syndrome’s “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” is clouding the US right’s judgment on Putin. Ingraham I can understand a little more - I think one or two of her adopted kids were born in Russia so theres a more complex relationship there. Carlson though - no idea what he’s up to.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
cpd
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:09 am

alberchico wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1510964257223020547

Wow, Even for Fox News this is a stupid take.

This twitter thread gives us a brief history of what Russia has done over the years.

https://mobile.twitter.com/EasyRid04682 ... 2813666304


Carlson must be working for Putin!

There are multiple sources from widely different organisations and he still puts out this double speak?
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:25 am

cpd wrote:
Carlson must be working for Putin!


The comparison with Tokyo Rose is accurate.
Russia is threatening our cities with nuclear weapons.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:37 am

alberchico wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1510964257223020547

Wow, Even for Fox News this is a stupid take.

This twitter thread gives us a brief history of what Russia has done over the years.

https://mobile.twitter.com/EasyRid04682 ... 2813666304
What is it with these people?

How about he goes to Kyiv, Bucha or even Auschwitz, Buchenwald and see for themselves and talk to the victims and eyewitnesses there.

Best would be if the negotiations between the Ukraine and Russia are held in the likes of Kyiv or Mariupol so Vlad can see the destruction he has caused.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:29 am

Vintage wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
With a range of 40-90 km, its almost like a mini cruise missile.
They would have to use them strategically.
Wonder if 10 is all they have available now.bt

All the data I see from a Google search shows their range as 25mi / 40km and the whole missile only weighs 50lbs, so the warhead can't be much more than about 5lbs, although it is a shaped charge.

A Tomahawk weighs almost 3,000 lbs with 1,000 lbs of that being warhead; it has a range of 1,500 mi. So more like a micro mini cruise missile. :lol:

They will take out a tank, (just like a javelin or NLAW). Ukraine has received thousands of NLAWS and Javelins, so 10 of these things isn't much to crow about.
I'm sure the DoD has more than 10 available but somebody doesn't want to give them up.


I can think of a very good use for several Tomahawks. That is do destroy the $4 billion bridges the Russians built over the Kerch straight to Crimea. That would destroy the logistical link from Russia to Crimea to southern Ukraine. It would also have lots of symbolism. Furthermore those bridges are in fact a war crime themselves. They were built to limit the size of ships that can enter the Sea of Azov. The ships are limited to a size below that of the original Panamax size.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:31 am

art wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
art wrote:

We (the West) sanctioned just about everything we could almost from day one. Personally I think we should have held some sanctions in reserve so we could increase pressure more in response to developments in the Ukraine war. Of course, the effect of sanctions increases as time goes by so things should get worse for Russia anyway even without new sanctions being applied.


You definitely haven't.
Russia still can sell stuff internationally...


You want the EU or UK to issue decrees that apply to all countries in the world? I don't think that they are so stupid as to think that the world has to obey them. Such hubris is exercised elsewhere.


There are options like banning hulls from (western) ports forever if they made port in Russia after xx. April 2022, or putting import restrictions on companies that continue their business with Russia.

You can not force other countries to complay with your sanctions, but you can tell them that business with Russia precludes any business with you.

best regards
Thomas
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:42 am

Chemist wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Aesma wrote:

The main difference between Europeans and Americans is that we have experienced war, its atrocities and its consequences, on our soil, within living memory.


Americans are a military paradox. The armed forces are amongst the most experienced in the world overall due to the constant fights they’ve been involved in. But the American people, as you mention, have never experienced war. War for most Americans is on the 10pm news, and is fought by putting up a flag. Not that it’s something to complain or criticize over…it’s unfortunate that it can’t be that way for everyone.

It changes your perspective when you go to small towns in France, or England, or even Germany and you see monuments with hundreds of names on them.


I appreciate your point, but I did go to Pearl Harbor and see a monument with hundreds of names on it. I also went to Washington DC and saw a memorial with thousands of names on it.


After the War of 1812 no country wanted to invade the US. The US did continue to fight against native American tribes til the 1880's. There was also the Civil War which in some ways presaged the first world war. It was a rather horrible war that lasted 4 years.
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Are we under existential threat which we have to defeat? No.


And that is where you are wrong, unless you happen to live in a place that a) has it's own nuclear weapons and b) in an area of that country that is important to it's government.

From Putins point of view there is bo meaningful difference between Ukraine and Poland/Denmark/Germany or any other place but France, the UK and the US. The Budapest Memorandum was signed by the UK and the US.

Best regards
Thomas


Please show me statements from Russia/Putin where is said that there is no difference between the countries you mentioned and Ukraine. I may overlooked it, but can’t find it.

True about Budapest Memorandum, but that was already meaningless in 2014….
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:50 am

marcelh wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Are we under existential threat which we have to defeat? No.


And that is where you are wrong, unless you happen to live in a place that a) has it's own nuclear weapons and b) in an area of that country that is important to it's government.

From Putins point of view there is bo meaningful difference between Ukraine and Poland/Denmark/Germany or any other place but France, the UK and the US. The Budapest Memorandum was signed by the UK and the US.

Best regards
Thomas


Please show me statements from Russia/Putin where is said that there is no difference between the countries you mentioned and Ukraine..


He didn´t say either way, there is no reason to believe he does make a difference. Why would he? Engaging Russia on Estonian soil would just as much lead to WWIII as engaging in Ukraine, there is no difference whatsoever with regards to nuclear weapons. Same folks that don´t want to risk that to stop the wholesale slaughter of civilians in Ukraine won´t want to risk it because of some vagely diferent wording in a 70 year old treaty document concerning a country they don´t live in either.

best regards
Thomas
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:58 am

Vintage wrote:
All the data I see from a Google search shows their range as 25mi / 40km and the whole missile only weighs 50lbs, so the warhead can't be much more than about 5lbs, although it is a shaped charge.


It can cruise at 70 mph for 40 minutes. So the 40 km range includes some loiter time. If you are targeting a fuel depot, you don't really need to loiter much, so the direct attack could be up to 90 km.

You can compare this with the Harpoon II with range of 139km, larger warhead, but not quite man portable.

bt
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:03 am

T4thH wrote:
Just for your information; as it seems to be ignored. The EU is of course also a defence pact for their member states.
To be in the EU will protect the member states.
You step on one of them, you step on all.


For those interested: Article 42-7 - Mutual Defense Clause.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2009_2014/documents/sede/dv/sede200612mutualdefsolidarityclauses_/sede200612mutualdefsolidarityclauses_en.pdf
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:12 am

Of course, the the two pillar EU member Germany and France were quite wishy washy before the war. And only France have nukes.

So if Ukraine was an EU member, the one country to probably send the most troop would have been Poland?

bt
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:13 am

bikerthai wrote:
Vintage wrote:
All the data I see from a Google search shows their range as 25mi / 40km and the whole missile only weighs 50lbs, so the warhead can't be much more than about 5lbs, although it is a shaped charge.


It can cruise at 70 mph for 40 minutes. So the 40 km range includes some loiter time. If you are targeting a fuel depot, you don't really need to loiter much, so the direct attack could be up to 90 km.

You can compare this with the Harpoon II with range of 139km, larger warhead, but not quite man portable.

bt


Range of the Datalink may be the limiting factor when it comes to useful range.

best regards
Thomas
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:26 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Range of the Datalink may be the limiting factor when it comes to useful range.


From wiki

An optional pocket digital data link (DDL) module allows engagements beyond 90 km (56 mi).


I wonder if that is still direct radio link or satellite.

It say the 600 can attack tanks. But with only 10, probably best use to attack generals.

bt
 
cpd
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:33 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Vintage wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
With a range of 40-90 km, its almost like a mini cruise missile.
They would have to use them strategically.
Wonder if 10 is all they have available now.bt

All the data I see from a Google search shows their range as 25mi / 40km and the whole missile only weighs 50lbs, so the warhead can't be much more than about 5lbs, although it is a shaped charge.

A Tomahawk weighs almost 3,000 lbs with 1,000 lbs of that being warhead; it has a range of 1,500 mi. So more like a micro mini cruise missile. :lol:

They will take out a tank, (just like a javelin or NLAW). Ukraine has received thousands of NLAWS and Javelins, so 10 of these things isn't much to crow about.
I'm sure the DoD has more than 10 available but somebody doesn't want to give them up.


I can think of a very good use for several Tomahawks. That is do destroy the $4 billion bridges the Russians built over the Kerch straight to Crimea. That would destroy the logistical link from Russia to Crimea to southern Ukraine. It would also have lots of symbolism. Furthermore those bridges are in fact a war crime themselves. They were built to limit the size of ships that can enter the Sea of Azov. The ships are limited to a size below that of the original Panamax size.


Yes, smuggling some land launched cruise missiles or drones to Ukraine and letting them get rid of that bridge would be extremely good.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:35 am

alberchico wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1510964257223020547

Wow, Even for Fox News this is a stupid take.


His audience consists of climate change deniers, holocaust deniers, Covid deniers . . .

Even the satellite photos showing that the bodies were lying there for weeks would not convince them. They will just find another excuse or distract with some other proclamation . . . like "Hey, look overhere at Hillary or Hunter".

bt
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:41 am

johns624 wrote:
art wrote:
johns624 wrote:
The second time that they were invaded, it was by their "friends". You know the ones, the ones that Russia helped invade Poland just a little before. Poor Russia!


Not saying the Soviet Union was angelic. I can imagine, though, that Jo Stalin thought that grabbing eastern Poland would give Russia a buffer against a future German invasion.
You need to read a little history. The USSR was still mad about Poland breaking away during the turmoil following the Revolution. Poland was once part of the Russian Empire. The German invasion just happened first. Stalin was doing longer term preparation to go to invade Germany. Hitler was just faster off the mark.


Worth noting that in 1921 the USSR had a war with Poland, which they lost, Stalin had a major beef with them after that.
I think art should yes read a bit of history, starting with the Katyn massace, the 1939 Stalin/Von Ribbentrop Pact, the 1944 Warsaw Uprising (where the Soviets deliberately allowed the Nazis to brutally put the uprising down), also reflect on how when despite warnings from his own intel, British decyptions of German communications, even suppying Germany with materials right up to 22 June 1941.

Once that happened, the UK started to supply, via the dangerous Arctic Convoys, weapons such as tanks and aircraft, despite the UK’s still parlous military situation at that time.
After they entered the war, large quantities of US suppilies, not just tanks and planes but large quantities of rations and most vitally, trucks and Jeeps, without which the Soviet Army would be impossible to supply. The Soviets made heroic efforts to move famously entire tank factories and supporting industries behind the Urals, all those T-34’s started rolling out again with a vengence but as they have just learned again in Ukraine logistics are unglamorous but vital. Which in large measure due to Mack Trucks and Jeeps in WW2 they had.

Since we are talking about Ukraine, also the deliberate famine inflicted by Moscow in the 30’s too, a full half century before the rank incompetence and corruption of their nuclear industry hit the then Ukraine SSR, which they have compounded recently.

NATO never sent the tanks in when members acted up or even in the case of France, left.
So trying to paint NATO as an ‘enforcer’ is absurd, want to know why the small Baltic states wanted to join so keenly? They were annexed by Stalin in 1940.
Poland had so many reasons to join, ditto the others.
And Putin with his crazed desire to recreate a shitty past hates the existence of both NATO and the EU.
 
marcelh
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:46 am

Chemist wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Aesma wrote:

The main difference between Europeans and Americans is that we have experienced war, its atrocities and its consequences, on our soil, within living memory.


Americans are a military paradox. The armed forces are amongst the most experienced in the world overall due to the constant fights they’ve been involved in. But the American people, as you mention, have never experienced war. War for most Americans is on the 10pm news, and is fought by putting up a flag. Not that it’s something to complain or criticize over…it’s unfortunate that it can’t be that way for everyone.

It changes your perspective when you go to small towns in France, or England, or even Germany and you see monuments with hundreds of names on them.


I appreciate your point, but I did go to Pearl Harbor and see a monument with hundreds of names on it. I also went to Washington DC and saw a memorial with thousands of names on it.


IMHO a wall with thousands of names is somehow different than my father in law telling a story about how his elder brother was shot in the head by a stray bullet when they were hiding in a basement in the autumn of 1944. Also other stories about soldiers killed in action - not something a 7 year old boy should witness. Pictures and videos we see today are very similar to what he witnessed (and told very vividly about it).
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:07 am

alberchico wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1510964257223020547

Wow, Even for Fox News this is a stupid take.


Carson is utterly contemptible, he's doing Lavrov's job for him.

But in order to understand the disservice people like Carson are doing to the public, look no further than the comments section of this thread on TGP. I had to stop reading it, it's beyond comprehension how people with access to real news can think like this. :banghead:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/0 ... ds-raised/
 
petertenthije
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:59 am

Chemist wrote:
I appreciate your point, but I did go to Pearl Harbor and see a monument with hundreds of names on it. I also went to Washington DC and saw a memorial with thousands of names on it.

Without wishing to diminish the sacrifices the US made at Pearl and elsewhere, there is a difference between going to visit a monument, or growing up in centuries-old cities where entire blocks, sometimes entire city centers, were leveled. The former is a interesting day out, the latter is a constant reminder of the consequences of war.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:56 am

scbriml wrote:
alberchico wrote:
https://mobile.twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/1510964257223020547

Wow, Even for Fox News this is a stupid take.


Carson is utterly contemptible, he's doing Lavrov's job for him.

But in order to understand the disservice people like Carson are doing to the public, look no further than the comments section of this thread on TGP. I had to stop reading it, it's beyond comprehension how people with access to real news can think like this. :banghead:
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/0 ... ds-raised/
Do I want to know why they think he is 'chilling in his mansion in Florida'?

As if the world rotates around the US and everything that happens in the world is for some dastardly plan to do something in the US....
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:42 am

FGITD wrote:
Chemist wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Americans are a military paradox. The armed forces are amongst the most experienced in the world overall due to the constant fights they’ve been involved in. But the American people, as you mention, have never experienced war. War for most Americans is on the 10pm news, and is fought by putting up a flag. Not that it’s something to complain or criticize over…it’s unfortunate that it can’t be that way for everyone.

It changes your perspective when you go to small towns in France, or England, or even Germany and you see monuments with hundreds of names on them.


I appreciate your point, but I did go to Pearl Harbor and see a monument with hundreds of names on it. I also went to Washington DC and saw a memorial with thousands of names on it.


There’s a world of difference between a one day attack on your country, and sustained war in all parts of it for months or years. That’s what I’m referring to.

There’s no sense in trying to compare sacrifice. But it certainly does hit differently when you see some of those monuments and in one small town of a few thousand, you see the same family name over and over again.

Honestly I missed your thought, when you said you went through small towns in Europe and saw monuments with thousands of names I thought you were also talking about the thousands of allied soldiers who died in the two major world wars, the sacrifice of one's live is not diminished because they were not from the country they died liberating.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:45 pm

Well it seems that Israel has finally realised that keeping quiet is the wrong thing to do and the Israeli foreign minister is calling war crimes

https://mobile.twitter.com/BarakRavid/s ... ties-bucha

And MSF (doctors without borders) also witnessed atrocities when a paediatric hospital was bombed.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MSF_Ukraine/ ... ties-bucha
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:08 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
Well it seems that Israel has finally realised that keeping quiet is the wrong thing to do and the Israeli foreign minister is calling war crimes

https://mobile.twitter.com/BarakRavid/s ... ties-bucha

And MSF (doctors without borders) also witnessed atrocities when a paediatric hospital was bombed.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MSF_Ukraine/ ... ties-bucha

Thing is that even if Russia looks guilty as hell of committing war crimes, who will be in a position to render a meaningful judgement? Unless I am mistaken, neither the US nor Russia recognise the authority of the International Court of Justice. Both are able to commit war crimes without being forced to acknowledge accountability if convicted of such.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:17 pm

art wrote:
Thing is that even if Russia looks guilty as hell of committing war crimes, who will be in a position to render a meaningful judgement?


True. But it does give political cover if for the US to send even more advance weaponry to Ukraine.

It also give the non-Putin camp (if they exists) a path toward normalizing relationship with the west.

bt
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:40 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
Well it seems that Israel has finally realised that keeping quiet is the wrong thing to do and the Israeli foreign minister is calling war crimes

The fact that Lapid finally named "Russia" in the Israeli denunciation of war crimes against civilians, doesn't absolve Israel for supporting the Russian cause in Ukraine over the last month. They finally made a peep about Russian atrocities against civilians. Big deal.

People (Americans) need to remember that Israel got its start as a colony of Russian immigrants. For it's first 40 years of being (1880 -1920) it was made up of almost exclusively Russian expats. Later immigrants to Israel had to adopt to what was already there. So in the early years, after its official creation (1948 - 1953), it sided with Russia vs the western powers (the word "kibbutz" translates to "commune"). Culturally and politically speaking, Israel is much closer to Russia than the west.

It has always been only a matter of time before Israel betrays its bond with the US. If Israel's repeated selling of prohibited US technology to China hasn't been enough to raise some interest, the last four weeks should be a hint to anybody that's paying attention.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:46 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
Well it seems that Israel has finally realised that keeping quiet is the wrong thing to do and the Israeli foreign minister is calling war crimes

https://mobile.twitter.com/BarakRavid/s ... ties-bucha

And MSF (doctors without borders) also witnessed atrocities when a paediatric hospital was bombed.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MSF_Ukraine/ ... ties-bucha


OT;
It never came to (until now) that the acronym for doctors without border, MSF, is intentionally (?) used for the registration for the aircraft used by The Royal Flying Doctors service in Australia.

On topic; a Russian ka-52 getting shot down by what is claimed to be an anti-tank missile.
https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/statu ... 4986906625
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:56 pm

Vintage wrote:
People (Americans) need to remember that Israel got its start as a colony of Russian immigrants. For it's first 40 years of being (1880 -1920)...

1880-1920???
 
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journeyperson
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:58 pm

art wrote:
Vintage wrote:
People (Americans) need to remember that Israel got its start as a colony of Russian immigrants. For it's first 40 years of being (1880 -1920)...

1880-1920???


BC.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:00 pm

art wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
Well it seems that Israel has finally realised that keeping quiet is the wrong thing to do and the Israeli foreign minister is calling war crimes

https://mobile.twitter.com/BarakRavid/s ... ties-bucha

And MSF (doctors without borders) also witnessed atrocities when a paediatric hospital was bombed.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MSF_Ukraine/ ... ties-bucha

Thing is that even if Russia looks guilty as hell of committing war crimes, who will be in a position to render a meaningful judgement? Unless I am mistaken, neither the US nor Russia recognise the authority of the International Court of Justice. Both are able to commit war crimes without being forced to acknowledge accountability if convicted of such.


What I did read (sorry no link) was that France has opened inquiries over suspected war crimes in Ukraine committed against French citizens.

No idea if this would be under the ICC jurusdiction or French one.
But let's face it - unless Putin is extradited for whatever reason nothing will happen just like with the two GRU agents from Salisbury.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:00 pm

art wrote:
Vintage wrote:
People (Americans) need to remember that Israel got its start as a colony of Russian immigrants. For it's first 40 years of being (1880 -1920)...

1880-1920???
You should go to the library and check out some books if that comes as a surprise to you. Israel didn't just plummet to earth like a meteorite in 1948 you know.
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:10 pm

Vintage wrote:
art wrote:
Vintage wrote:
People (Americans) need to remember that Israel got its start as a colony of Russian immigrants. For it's first 40 years of being (1880 -1920)...

1880-1920???
You should go to the library and check out some books if that comes as a surprise to you. Israel didn't just plummet to earth like a meteorite in 1948 you know.

Tsrael did not exist before 1948, did it? Zionism may have developed in the 19th century but there was no Jewish religious state until 1948, was there?
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:10 pm

Vintage wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
Well it seems that Israel has finally realised that keeping quiet is the wrong thing to do and the Israeli foreign minister is calling war crimes

The fact that Lapid finally named "Russia" in the Israeli denunciation of war crimes against civilians, doesn't absolve Israel for supporting the Russian cause in Ukraine over the last month. They finally made a peep about Russian atrocities against civilians. Big deal.

People (Americans) need to remember that Israel got its start as a colony of Russian immigrants. For it's first 40 years of being (1880 -1920) it was made up of almost exclusively Russian expats. Later immigrants to Israel had to adopt to what was already there. So in the early years, after its official creation (1948 - 1953), it sided with Russia vs the western powers (the word "kibbutz" translates to "commune"). Culturally and politically speaking, Israel is much closer to Russia than the west.

It has always been only a matter of time before Israel betrays its bond with the US. If Israel's repeated selling of prohibited US technology to China hasn't been enough to raise some interest, the last four weeks should be a hint to anybody that's paying attention.
It's also had a big influx of Russians since the dissolution of the USSR.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:16 pm

art wrote:
Tsrael did not exist before 1948, did it?
That depends on one's point of view. But this subject is off topic here, if you want to discuss this in any depth you'll have to start a new thread. Or take my advice above.
 
Chemist
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:40 pm

marcelh wrote:
Chemist wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Americans are a military paradox. The armed forces are amongst the most experienced in the world overall due to the constant fights they’ve been involved in. But the American people, as you mention, have never experienced war. War for most Americans is on the 10pm news, and is fought by putting up a flag. Not that it’s something to complain or criticize over…it’s unfortunate that it can’t be that way for everyone.

It changes your perspective when you go to small towns in France, or England, or even Germany and you see monuments with hundreds of names on them.


I appreciate your point, but I did go to Pearl Harbor and see a monument with hundreds of names on it. I also went to Washington DC and saw a memorial with thousands of names on it.


IMHO a wall with thousands of names is somehow different than my father in law telling a story about how his elder brother was shot in the head by a stray bullet when they were hiding in a basement in the autumn of 1944. Also other stories about soldiers killed in action - not something a 7 year old boy should witness. Pictures and videos we see today are very similar to what he witnessed (and told very vividly about it).


I was responding to the comment "It changes your perspective when you go to small towns in France, or England, or even Germany and you see monuments with hundreds of names on them."
America has experienced war, and has monuments with hundreds of names on them.
In my opinion the original comment was valid but not well stated. America HAS experienced war, and HAS monuments with hundreds of names on them (unlike what the poster said). The main difference is that with the exception of Peral Harbor, America has not over the past 100 years had war on its own soil, with any foreign troops arriving and killing people. That is what the poster should have said, and I would grant that truth, but not the way it was stated in his post.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:57 pm

Boris Johnson talking directly to the Russian people in this video:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1511388515787055115
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:10 pm

Chemist wrote:
"It changes your perspective when you go to small towns in France, or England, or even Germany and you see monuments with hundreds of names on them."


Chemist wrote:
The main difference is that with the exception of Peral Harbor, America has not over the past 100 years had war on its own soil, with any foreign troops arriving and killing people.


Just some historical trivia.

The Japanese did occupy American soil, albeit not part of the United States at the time.

The Aleutian, Guam and Wake islands.

As for perspective. It really depends on the character of the people doesn't it? Russia has suffered tremendously during WWII yet that did not stop it from inflicting the same pain elsewhere.

The Balkan suffered during WWIi and how much perspective did they have when killing each other using the Balkan war.

While American cities did not suffer war, some Americans, as immigrants did survive the brutality of noted wars.

Alas I'm sad to say even with such experience, it does not necessarily give them an enlightening perspective to the current situation in Ukraine.

bt
 
cpd
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:33 am

Ukraine surrendered:

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/no- ... 5ab5g.html

Actually no it didn’t, it was a fake video. I wonder if this could be used against Putin as well.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 2:19 am

The subject of the US Civil War is somehow lost on our European friends. The loses were brutal and the scars exist to this day. Pretty much every town or City east of the Mississippi River has a Civil War monument. Debates over Confederate monuments cause civil unrest and protests. Did you not see the Confederate flags flying at the US Capital on Jan 6th?

IMO a lot of Russian look at this conflict as their Civil War to reunite the Union - the USSR
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:34 am

ReverseFlow wrote:
art wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
Well it seems that Israel has finally realised that keeping quiet is the wrong thing to do and the Israeli foreign minister is calling war crimes

https://mobile.twitter.com/BarakRavid/s ... ties-bucha

And MSF (doctors without borders) also witnessed atrocities when a paediatric hospital was bombed.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MSF_Ukraine/ ... ties-bucha

Thing is that even if Russia looks guilty as hell of committing war crimes, who will be in a position to render a meaningful judgement? Unless I am mistaken, neither the US nor Russia recognise the authority of the International Court of Justice. Both are able to commit war crimes without being forced to acknowledge accountability if convicted of such.


What I did read (sorry no link) was that France has opened inquiries over suspected war crimes in Ukraine committed against French citizens.

No idea if this would be under the ICC jurusdiction or French one.
But let's face it - unless Putin is extradited for whatever reason nothing will happen just like with the two GRU agents from Salisbury.


Since Ukraine is signatory to the ICC, and the crimes happened in Ukraine, the ICC has jurisdiction in any case. Extradition would of course be the problem.

best regards
Thomas
 
Virtual737
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 5:53 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
The subject of the US Civil War is somehow lost on our European friends. The loses were brutal and the scars exist to this day. Pretty much every town or City east of the Mississippi River has a Civil War monument. Debates over Confederate monuments cause civil unrest and protests. Did you not see the Confederate flags flying at the US Capital on Jan 6th?

IMO a lot of Russian look at this conflict as their Civil War to reunite the Union - the USSR


I think that's a tenuous comparison at best. There are still people alive today that lived through WWI let alone WWII. Literally millions of people's parents and grandparents lived and fought through those two wars (including Americans). At some point in time (several generations after those people have passed away), to still say that you directly feel the effects and the pain is probably more of a choice than a reality.

You can't say the same of the American Civil War. Is there anyone alive today that ever knew anyone alive during that war? If >150 years is not long enough to move on then we're doomed to continue repeating the worst of history. That is why I tend to shake my head at anyone who wants to wave the confederate war flag.

The majority of Russians alive today didn't know the Soviet Union. They don't know that their low income lives (compared to the West) are actually a step up from what they would have been under communism. Their longing for their non-existent world dominating position of the past is drummed into them by the likes of Putin who cares not one jot about the people he controls, but longs for the position of increased power which he thinks he is being deprived of. That is what truly scares me, for in his own mind he will never have enough power.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 6:07 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
The subject of the US Civil War is somehow lost on our European friends. The loses were brutal and the scars exist to this day. Pretty much every town or City east of the Mississippi River has a Civil War monument. Debates over Confederate monuments cause civil unrest and protests. Did you not see the Confederate flags flying at the US Capital on Jan 6th?

IMO a lot of Russian look at this conflict as their Civil War to reunite the Union - the USSR


Long gone from living memory though hasn’t it?
Almost the first modern industrial war though that really came to pass with WW1, hence how that became such a bloody slugging match due to the new technology not keeping up with tactics.
The German myth of being not beaten but being ‘stabbed in the back” only lasted from 1918 to 1945, even this century you see the same in certain parts of the US, the Swastika was banned in Germany after WW2, not the US version though. Statues of traitor commanders were being put up as late as the 1960’s, funnily enough around the time the US at last was becoming a representive democracy not based on race (and one party is working hard, for years now, to reverse that), major bases still named after them.

I agree that civil wars are the worst, the US one however predated recognisable modern artillery, recognisable automatic weapons, air power.
Luckily the US has never had the last inflicted on it, (a military base in a then colony half way across the Pacific however historically significant is not the same as large scale bombing of cities for extended periods).
The reason Ukraine has such resonance in Europe, which has made in German defence and foreign policy doing what everyone thought politically impossible two months ago, smears saying “they are not really doing anything” are not only disproved by actual footage from Ukraine, though such a huge u-turn will involve inevitably a lot of gear grinding, what with the long established restrictions on military supplies involving multiple government agencies.

Not all European nations experienced war on their land then, even the ‘lucky’ ones that only had large scale bombing are still marked by it, my Mother remembers seeing V-1 Cruise Missiles overhead dreading the engine cut out, then just hearing the aftermath of a V-2 ballistic missile, or as it’s makers called it the A-4.
The under development A-9 would have, had it been used, been as military useless and as resource hungry as it’s smaller cousin, however had it happened you can bet Von Braun would never have got US citizenship, he instead would have had his SS rank used against him and he’d have ended up in Nuremberg too.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:35 am

Vintage wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
With a range of 40-90 km, its almost like a mini cruise missile.
They would have to use them strategically.
Wonder if 10 is all they have available now.bt

All the data I see from a Google search shows their range as 25mi / 40km and the whole missile only weighs 50lbs, so the warhead can't be much more than about 5lbs, although it is a shaped charge.

A Tomahawk weighs almost 3,000 lbs with 1,000 lbs of that being warhead; it has a range of 1,500 mi. So more like a micro mini cruise missile. :lol:

They will take out a tank, (just like a javelin or NLAW). Ukraine has received thousands of NLAWS and Javelins, so 10 of these things isn't much to crow about.
I'm sure the DoD has more than 10 available but somebody doesn't want to give them up.

They likely won't be used against tanks; they will be aimed at Russian trains pulling supply trains containing ammunition, fuel, and other supplies to the front lines. One hit to a locomotive, and the entire train derails, rendering everything onboard useless, and that rail line will need serious repair work that will take out of operations for weeks.

And the Switchblade UAV system is actually 10 UAV's per system, so 100 UAV's total.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:31 am

ThePointblank wrote:
They likely won't be used against tanks; they will be aimed at Russian trains.........
Where did the targeting information come from?

ThePointblank wrote:
And the Switchblade UAV system is actually 10 UAV's per system, so 100 UAV's total.

They are sending 100 switchblade 300s and 10 model 600s. There is a vehicle launcher for the 600 that has six tubes, but I see nothing online about groupings of 10.
Link?
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:54 am

Vintage wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
They likely won't be used against tanks; they will be aimed at Russian trains.........
Where did the targeting information come from?

ThePointblank wrote:
And the Switchblade UAV system is actually 10 UAV's per system, so 100 UAV's total.

They are sending 100 switchblade 300s and 10 model 600s. There is a vehicle launcher for the 600 that has six tubes, but I see nothing online about groupings of 10.
Link?


Targeting? Their own assets (aided by training from the US, UK, Canada, Estonia from 2015-2022), all those NATO and Swedish intel systems, likely Ukraine gets rapid information from both US military satellites and all those others you have seen in reports such as from Maxar.
The latter not being available just a few years ago.
The Ukrainians likely have much better intel in both scope and rapid accessibility to it than Russia does from its own systems.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 9:31 am

Don't want to hijack the thread as is true that Europe does have more recent experience with WW2 (although WW1 survivors are a stretch).

GDB - your comments are well thought out. Unlike Hitler who attacked before his Generals thought they were ready, Putin will (IMO ultimately) come to the conclusion that the Russian armed forces really aren't prepared for a conflict with a well armed and motivated foe. Let alone NATO.

I do wonder if he considered the subject of coordinating the onset of war with the Chinese and an invasion of Taiwan. Axis Version 2
 
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c933103
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:28 am

Comment from China's Global Times on what they call the "Bucha incident"
https://weibo.com/3214158792/Ln5V9iE9H? ... rofilefeed

#GlobalTimesEditorial [Cannot let the "Bucha Incident" become an excuse of flaming fire]

The United Nations Security Council held a meeting on April 5, America Eastern Time, to discuss the situation in Ukraine, and the "Bucha Incident" became the focus. Ukraine accused the Russian army of killing a large number of civilians during the occupation of Bucha, a town on the western outskirts of Kyiv; Russia firmly denied it and submitted evidence to the Security Council that the Ukrainian side was engaged in a propaganda war making up false information. Earlier, the Ukrainian side claimed that hundreds of civilian bodies had been found in Bucha, and the Western media that followed the Ukrainian army into Bucha took pictures of many civilian-dressing corpse being exposed on the street, caused international opinion to develop rapidly, and casted a deep layer of shadow on the ceasefire talk.

It must be stressed that any act of violence against civilians, regardless of the excuse, is absolutely unacceptable and must be strongly condemned and held accountable. This is also the consensus of the international community. Turmoil and war are often accompanied by such distressing tragedies, which is one of the reasons why we firmly oppose chaos and war, and insist on persuading peace and talks. Although the truth has yet to be revealed, what is currently certain is that the war is ultimately the "culprit" that caused all the tragedies. If Russia and Ukraine cannot achieve a ceasefire, the humanitarian tragedy will not end one day.

However, it is regrettable that after the "Bucha Incident" was revealed, the U.S., the initiator of the Ukraine crisis, not only did not make any sign of persuading peace and talks, but instead prepared to increase sanctions against Russia, provide Ukraine with more weapons, and continue to pressure Russia through diplomatic and public opinions. Such series of moves have intensified the tension between Russia and Ukraine, and created obstacles for the peace talks between the two sides. In particular, Washington said it would supply Ukraine with a range of heavy weapons systems, and U.S. National Security Adviser Sullivan described the degree and depth of weapons and armament deliveries to Ukraine "unprecedented." It has to be said that this kind of continual flaming behavior is very irresponsible.

Many Western media have called the "Bucha incident" a turning point in the Russia-Ukraine conflict. This is an ambiguous judgment. Is it a turning point in the direction of further deterioration of the situation? This is precisely what peace-loving people need to be wary of. At present, the trend of the "Bucha Incident" seems to be deviating from the normal track, and taste of public opinion warfare and psychological warfare is getting stronger and stronger. However, any attempt to use the Ukraine crisis to unilaterally occupy the "moral high ground" and constantly promote conflicts to extract geopolitical strategic interests, may eventually trigger an even larger humanitarian tragedy.

People do have reason to suspect that behind the indignation of some people in the United States and the West over the "Bucha incident", there are profound "double standards" and impure political purposes. Because over the past few years, the militaries of some countries have committed many crimes in killing civilians, and so far have gone unpunished. According to incomplete statistics, as many as 100,000 Afghan civilians have died under the bullets of the US military, and a considerable number of them are children. Australian special forces killed 39 Afghan civilians, including minors, by cutting their throats and other means in a "non-combat state" just for "practice". In order to obstruct the International Court of Justice's investigation into the war crimes of the US military in Afghanistan, the US government even revoked the visas of the staff of the International Court of Justice to the United States and threatened to impose sanctions.

"When war comes, the truth is the first victim." This Western proverb is widely known and has been quoted many times by parliamentarians and politicians in countries like the United States and the United Kingdom. They should fully understand that avoiding tragedy is as important as pursuing "truth". . No matter how the "Bucha incident" happened, at least one thing can't be denied, that is, the war is the culprit of the humanitarian disaster. At present, the humanitarian disaster in Ukraine has added new pressure to the Russia-Ukraine peace talks, but the crisis just shows the necessity and importance of the ceasefire and peace talks, because if the ceasefire is not reached as soon as possible, more disasters may happen in the future.

In this sense, the "Bucha Incident" once again reminds the international community that, while conducting serious investigations and pursuing accountability, it is also necessary to avoid flaming and "handing out knives", and to insist on persuading peace and promoting talks. Talk to reach ceasefire, and talk to reach peace. Know that only peace can protect life and bring tranquil.


I think it is amazing how they can go without denying the tragedy yet still condemn a third country over the mass murder.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Apr 06, 2022 10:46 am

c933103 wrote:
Comment from China's Global Times on what they call the "Bucha incident"
https://weibo.com/3214158792/Ln5V9iE9H? ... rofilefeed

#GlobalTimesEditorial [Cannot let the "Bucha Incident" become an excuse of flaming fire]

The United Nations Security Council held a meeting on April 5, America Eastern Time, to discuss the situation in Ukraine, and the "Bucha Incident" became the focus. Ukraine accused the Russian army of killing a large number of civilians during the occupation of Bucha, a town on the western outskirts of Kyiv; Russia firmly denied it and submitted evidence to the Security Council that the Ukrainian side was engaged in a propaganda war making up false information. Earlier, the Ukrainian side claimed that hundreds of civilian bodies had been found in Bucha, and the Western media that followed the Ukrainian army into Bucha took pictures of many civilian-dressing corpse being exposed on the street, caused international opinion to develop rapidly, and casted a deep layer of shadow on the ceasefire talk.

It must be stressed that any act of violence against civilians, regardless of the excuse, is absolutely unacceptable and must be strongly condemned and held accountable. This is also the consensus of the international community. Turmoil and war are often accompanied by such distressing tragedies, which is one of the reasons why we firmly oppose chaos and war, and insist on persuading peace and talks. Although the truth has yet to be revealed, what is currently certain is that the war is ultimately the "culprit" that caused all the tragedies. If Russia and Ukraine cannot achieve a ceasefire, the humanitarian tragedy will not end one day.

However, it is regrettable that after the "Bucha Incident" was revealed, the U.S., the initiator of the Ukraine crisis, not only did not make any sign of persuading peace and talks, but instead prepared to increase sanctions against Russia, provide Ukraine with more weapons, and continue to pressure Russia through diplomatic and public opinions. Such series of moves have intensified the tension between Russia and Ukraine, and created obstacles for the peace talks between the two sides. In particular, Washington said it would supply Ukraine with a range of heavy weapons systems, and U.S. National Security Adviser Sullivan described the degree and depth of weapons and armament deliveries to Ukraine "unprecedented." It has to be said that this kind of continual flaming behavior is very irresponsible.

Many Western media have called the "Bucha incident" a turning point in the Russia-Ukraine conflict. This is an ambiguous judgment. Is it a turning point in the direction of further deterioration of the situation? This is precisely what peace-loving people need to be wary of. At present, the trend of the "Bucha Incident" seems to be deviating from the normal track, and taste of public opinion warfare and psychological warfare is getting stronger and stronger. However, any attempt to use the Ukraine crisis to unilaterally occupy the "moral high ground" and constantly promote conflicts to extract geopolitical strategic interests, may eventually trigger an even larger humanitarian tragedy.

People do have reason to suspect that behind the indignation of some people in the United States and the West over the "Bucha incident", there are profound "double standards" and impure political purposes. Because over the past few years, the militaries of some countries have committed many crimes in killing civilians, and so far have gone unpunished. According to incomplete statistics, as many as 100,000 Afghan civilians have died under the bullets of the US military, and a considerable number of them are children. Australian special forces killed 39 Afghan civilians, including minors, by cutting their throats and other means in a "non-combat state" just for "practice". In order to obstruct the International Court of Justice's investigation into the war crimes of the US military in Afghanistan, the US government even revoked the visas of the staff of the International Court of Justice to the United States and threatened to impose sanctions.

"When war comes, the truth is the first victim." This Western proverb is widely known and has been quoted many times by parliamentarians and politicians in countries like the United States and the United Kingdom. They should fully understand that avoiding tragedy is as important as pursuing "truth". . No matter how the "Bucha incident" happened, at least one thing can't be denied, that is, the war is the culprit of the humanitarian disaster. At present, the humanitarian disaster in Ukraine has added new pressure to the Russia-Ukraine peace talks, but the crisis just shows the necessity and importance of the ceasefire and peace talks, because if the ceasefire is not reached as soon as possible, more disasters may happen in the future.

In this sense, the "Bucha Incident" once again reminds the international community that, while conducting serious investigations and pursuing accountability, it is also necessary to avoid flaming and "handing out knives", and to insist on persuading peace and promoting talks. Talk to reach ceasefire, and talk to reach peace. Know that only peace can protect life and bring tranquil.


I think it is amazing how they can go without denying the tragedy yet still condemn a third country over the mass murder.

Disgusting!
„ the U.S., the initiator of the Ukraine crisis“

Extremely disappointed about the Chinese. But what should I have expected… They have chosen their side and we shall keep this in mind.

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