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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:33 pm

marcelh wrote:
It also fits the bill of non-Western weapons used into “Russian” territory.


I believe it was non US weapons. I don't know if Poland or the UK stipulated any restrictions.
Anyway, the US has already said Crimea is not of limit.

Vintage wrote:
go with Tommy's suggestion of the Ukrainian made Grom.


More probable than the Saab missile as there was no anouncement that Ukraine would by any. However, going forward if there are concern thay LM can not make enough rockets to refill stock, there are alternatives out there.

nt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:51 pm

marcelh wrote:
Not inconvenient at all, but I observe some double standards over here.


Of course its a double standard. Why are we asking the West to fight a 21st century war when we are giving the Russian a pass for fighting a 20th century war.

T4thH wrote:
(How Russians see their army, Russian propaganda in the net).


Speaking of 20th century war, many US WWII recruitment posters are really racist and would not be appropriate today. But comparing them to current Russian propraganda is like comparing the city bombing of WWII to the current city bombing by the Russian.

I for one do not fault the Russian for flattening Mariupo during the fighting. If its the only way they know how to fight, then so be it.

But to be fair, if a comparison is to be made to modern "Western" tactics, know that Ramadi, was not flattened.

bt
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:02 pm

marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Oh dear, that's an inconvenient truth.
That's the best kind! :D


Not inconvenient at all, but I observe some double standards over here. We are condemning the Russian attacks on cities like Mariupol and others for obvious reasons, just as has been done with targeting cities by the Luftwaffe” as mentioned in the quote made by “Bomber” Harris and posted upthread. But we approve the same when it’s done by the good guys.

The only inconvenient truth is that more Dutchmen were killed by friendly bombings than by the Luftwaffe at Rotterdam. This as a result of “collateral damage” and/or Dutch cities mistakenly seen as German cities when the primary target in Germany couldn’t be bombed.


Yes, Bomber Command totally had laser guided and/or GPS weapons, inertial navigation, cruise missiles (oh wait, the Germans DID have them, in the crude V1 form only good for hitting large cities, ask my Mother about those things).
In 1940 Rotterdam was explicitly terror bombed, as Warsaw had been, as tested at Guernica in Spain.

Yet there are the RAF’s low level, as precise as the technology then allowed daylight attacks, on the Phillips works, a major industrial asset to Germany, as well as prisons holding resistance fighters awaiting execution in other occupied countries.
Later innovations such as Tallboy and Grand Slam for by the standards of the day, precision attacks on hardened targets. Guess what? They did not exist either in 1942/43.
Knock yourself out why don’t you, blame the Allies, or just the British or just Bomber Command, for Ann Frank, (given up by who? Sent to her death by who else?)

Real world, every year there are commemorations for Allied aircrew in the Netherlands. Not just for the starvation prevention missions of Operation Manna (and the similar USAAF similar’Chowhound’ sorties), in fact Bomber Command was for many years more commemorated in the Netherlands than the UK.

Again (god how to simplify something already an obvious reference to that quote that so bent you out of shape), Goering had promised Germany that ‘no enemy plane shall fly over the Reich’, the shock of the Russians holidaying on their temporary one hopes, ‘Strength Through Joy’ Peninsula is an obvious analogy to Harris’s statement of fact in 1942.
You thought you were immune to the invasions and atrocities of your government, egged them on even, you ain’t though.

This is why well beyond the actual military assets destroyed, the attack, however it was carried out, might well be the start of a turning point in the popularity of the war in Russia.
Along of course with the large death toll, economic damage, the former might yet force Putin’s hand in doing something even he likely fears to do.
Mobilization.
Hordes of angry ‘Moscow Mum’s’.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:31 pm

Speaking of mobilization and very back on topic, Perun's latest deep dive concerns Ukrainian mobilization, training, how it evolved, where it is going, what is likely still required;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVx3Nlifo4Q

Plus a brief look at what was targeted in that suspected HIMARS strike yesterday;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pOKWFcJht4
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:02 pm

bikerthai wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Not inconvenient at all, but I observe some double standards over here.


Of course its a double standard. Why are we asking the West to fight a 21st century war when we are giving the Russian a pass for fighting a 20th century war.

T4thH wrote:
(How Russians see their army, Russian propaganda in the net).


Speaking of 20th century war, many US WWII recruitment posters are really racist and would not be appropriate today. But comparing them to current Russian propraganda is like comparing the city bombing of WWII to the current city bombing by the Russian.

I for one do not fault the Russian for flattening Mariupo during the fighting. If its the only way they know how to fight, then so be it.

But to be fair, if a comparison is to be made to modern "Western" tactics, know that Ramadi, was not flattened.

bt

Do I have to put always 20 smilies in it or: [/Ironic on]...[Ironic of]....?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:16 pm

T4thH wrote:
I think I have recognized one dud impact on the street bridge, so the air defence was not able to defend the bridge but was also not useless?


Speaking of WWIi tactic, someone suggests that the mid air explosion you see in that video was the Russian was using their SAMs as flak

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/155 ... XzsSg&s=19
:spin:

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:27 pm

T4thH wrote:
Do I have to put always 20 smilies in it or: [/Ironic on]...[Ironic of]....?


I think you've written enough for us to guesstimate the context :bigthumbsup:

bt
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:04 pm

johns624 wrote:
marcelh wrote:
johns624 wrote:
That's the best kind! :D


Not inconvenient at all, but I observe some double standards over here. We are condemning the Russian attacks on cities like Mariupol and others for obvious reasons, just as has been done with targeting cities by the Luftwaffe” as mentioned in the quote made by “Bomber” Harris and posted upthread. But we approve the same when it’s done by the good guys.

The only inconvenient truth is that more Dutchmen were killed by friendly bombings than by the Luftwaffe at Rotterdam. This as a result of “collateral damage” and/or Dutch cities mistakenly seen as German cities when the primary target in Germany couldn’t be bombed.
Here's the nuance that you don't seem to get. Germany and now Russia are the aggressors who started the war. Great Britain didn't just bomb cities on a whim. They were attacked.


Not that I fault them, but it was the UK and France that declared war on Germany.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declara ... rld_War_II

Best regards,
Jonas
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:17 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
johns624 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Not inconvenient at all, but I observe some double standards over here. We are condemning the Russian attacks on cities like Mariupol and others for obvious reasons, just as has been done with targeting cities by the Luftwaffe” as mentioned in the quote made by “Bomber” Harris and posted upthread. But we approve the same when it’s done by the good guys.

The only inconvenient truth is that more Dutchmen were killed by friendly bombings than by the Luftwaffe at Rotterdam. This as a result of “collateral damage” and/or Dutch cities mistakenly seen as German cities when the primary target in Germany couldn’t be bombed.
Here's the nuance that you don't seem to get. Germany and now Russia are the aggressors who started the war. Great Britain didn't just bomb cities on a whim. They were attacked.


Not that I fault them, but it was the UK and France that declared war on Germany.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declara ... rld_War_II

Best regards,
Jonas


Your factual statement neglects to acknowledge that they declared war as a direct result of Germany's invasion of Poland two days earlier, so Germany was indeed the aggressor. Just like Russia in Ukraine.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:38 pm

bikerthai wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Not inconvenient at all, but I observe some double standards over here.


Of course its a double standard. Why are we asking the West to fight a 21st century war when we are giving the Russian a pass for fighting a 20th century war.

T4thH wrote:
(How Russians see their army, Russian propaganda in the net).


Speaking of 20th century war, many US WWII recruitment posters are really racist and would not be appropriate today. But comparing them to current Russian propraganda is like comparing the city bombing of WWII to the current city bombing by the Russian.

I for one do not fault the Russian for flattening Mariupo during the fighting. If its the only way they know how to fight, then so be it.

But to be fair, if a comparison is to be made to modern "Western" tactics, know that Ramadi, was not flattened.

bt


While Ramadi wasn't turned to rubble, it seems Raqqa in Syria was.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raqqa_(2017)

Or if I take this excerpt from the wiki page on First Battle of Fallujah and apply it to Melitopol is the situation much different?
The protest escalated as gunmen reportedly fired upon U.S. forces from the protesting crowd and U.S. Army soldiers from the 1st Battalion of the 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division returned fire, killing 17 people and wounding more than 70 of the protesters. There were no U.S. Army or coalition casualties in the incident. U.S. forces said that the shooting took place over 30–60 seconds, however other sources claim the shooting continued for half an hour.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_B ... f_Fallujah

With my two examples I just want to illustrate why we should be careful when talking about war crimes and believing in western moral superiority.
I believe the sad thing about war crimes/Geneva Conventions is that if we believe in the cause (= in our view point the war is justified) and if we are at risk of losing or losing many of our soldiers, most would be okay with war crimes/ignoring the Geneva Conventions...

Also I believe that many men and women that agreed to the Geneva Conventions had witnessed the horrors of the two world wars hence they refrained from relativizing war crimes and make them okay if one believes to have the moral high ground.

Best regards and strength to the Ukrainian people,
Jonas
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:49 pm

scbriml wrote:
AirbusCheerlead wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Here's the nuance that you don't seem to get. Germany and now Russia are the aggressors who started the war. Great Britain didn't just bomb cities on a whim. They were attacked.


Not that I fault them, but it was the UK and France that declared war on Germany.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declara ... rld_War_II

Best regards,
Jonas


Your factual statement neglects to acknowledge that they declared war as a direct result of Germany's invasion of Poland two days earlier, so Germany was indeed the aggressor. Just like Russia in Ukraine.
To add to scbriml's comment, the UK and France had a treaty with Poland to come to her aid.
http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaste ... trayal.htm
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:51 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Not inconvenient at all, but I observe some double standards over here.


Of course its a double standard. Why are we asking the West to fight a 21st century war when we are giving the Russian a pass for fighting a 20th century war.

T4thH wrote:
(How Russians see their army, Russian propaganda in the net).


Speaking of 20th century war, many US WWII recruitment posters are really racist and would not be appropriate today. But comparing them to current Russian propraganda is like comparing the city bombing of WWII to the current city bombing by the Russian.

I for one do not fault the Russian for flattening Mariupo during the fighting. If its the only way they know how to fight, then so be it.

But to be fair, if a comparison is to be made to modern "Western" tactics, know that Ramadi, was not flattened.

bt


While Ramadi wasn't turned to rubble, it seems Raqqa in Syria was.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raqqa_(2017)

Or if I take this excerpt from the wiki page on First Battle of Fallujah and apply it to Melitopol is the situation much different?
The protest escalated as gunmen reportedly fired upon U.S. forces from the protesting crowd and U.S. Army soldiers from the 1st Battalion of the 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division returned fire, killing 17 people and wounding more than 70 of the protesters. There were no U.S. Army or coalition casualties in the incident. U.S. forces said that the shooting took place over 30–60 seconds, however other sources claim the shooting continued for half an hour.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_B ... f_Fallujah

With my two examples I just want to illustrate why we should be careful when talking about war crimes and believing in western moral superiority.
I believe the sad thing about war crimes/Geneva Conventions is that if we believe in the cause (= in our view point the war is justified) and if we are at risk of losing or losing many of our soldiers, most would be okay with war crimes/ignoring the Geneva Conventions...

Also I believe that many men and women that agreed to the Geneva Conventions had witnessed the horrors of the two world wars hence they refrained from relativizing war crimes and make them okay if one believes to have the moral high ground.

Best regards and strength to the Ukrainian people,
Jonas
There's a huge difference between isolated atrocities, which every country occasionally has, and the widespread, state sanctioned ones that Russia is guilty of.
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:51 pm

scbriml wrote:
AirbusCheerlead wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Here's the nuance that you don't seem to get. Germany and now Russia are the aggressors who started the war. Great Britain didn't just bomb cities on a whim. They were attacked.


Not that I fault them, but it was the UK and France that declared war on Germany.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declara ... rld_War_II

Best regards,
Jonas


Your factual statement neglects to acknowledge that they declared war as a direct result of Germany's invasion of Poland two days earlier, so Germany was indeed the aggressor. Just like Russia in Ukraine.


In our modern liberal western view, looking back, you are certainly right. But at a time when UK and France had forcefully subjugated half of the world, I fail to see how Germany inviding Poland is any different.

Also my first sentence "Not that I fault them" actually implicitly aknowledges the attack on Poland.

Best regards,
Jonas
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:12 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
[

In our modern liberal western view, looking back, you are certainly right. But at a time when UK and France had forcefully subjugated half of the world, I fail to see how Germany inviding Poland is any different.

Best regards,
Jonas
It's different because, as we have been reminded for centuries, Europe is more "civilized".
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:14 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
While Ramadi wasn't turned to rubble, it seems Raqqa in Syria was.


The UN report said in inhabitable, not turned in to rubble. But your point is taken. You can still do lots of destruction even if your attack in pin-point

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
I just want to illustrate why we should be careful when talking about war crimes


Yep war crime is fraught with legalities and was not invented until after WWIi. So some attitude can change and some seem not.

bt
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:32 pm

bikerthai wrote:
AirbusCheerlead wrote:
While Ramadi wasn't turned to rubble, it seems Raqqa in Syria was.


The UN report said in inhabitable, not turned in to rubble. But your point is taken. You can still do lots of destruction even if your attack in pin-point

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
I just want to illustrate why we should be careful when talking about war crimes


Yep war crime is fraught with legalities and was not invented until after WWIi. So some attitude can change and some seem not.

bt

Raqqa was a little bit special. Every single building in Raqqa was mined by the IS. In every single building was minimum one IED often 5, 6 10...., even whole blocks were IEDs conected together. The only possibility to get in any house in Raqqa city during the house to house fighting without to die or to get harmed, was to throw 2 or three selfmade bombs/satchels into a building/grounf floor and second floor in hope to blow up all IEDs. Yes more or less all buildings in Raqqa have been destroyed....The IS was crazy, completely crazy.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:39 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
In our modern liberal western view, looking back, you are certainly right. But at a time when UK and France had forcefully subjugated half of the world, I fail to see how Germany inviding Poland is any different.

Because we are expected to do better?

And since we can't go back and change the past, the only thing to do is not keep allowing the same thing to be done. Otherwise what you suggest is to just keep the same things, invading, and murderer entire populations. Or to stand by silently and do nothing as it is done again and again since no one's hands are clean.

I have done many things I am not proud of, that were wrong and hurt others. It does not restrict me from speaking out against those that do such things now and working to stop such things. We are supposed to work to do better, not remain the same.

Tugg
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:40 pm

I'm happy to take our discussion to another thread since our arguments will go further and further away from Ukraine, and they deserve better in this thread.

Best regards, and strength to Ukraine,
Jonas
 
Oykie
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:03 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
I'm happy to take our discussion to another thread since our arguments will go further and further away from Ukraine, and they deserve better in this thread.

Best regards, and strength to Ukraine,
Jonas


Maybe I can help round this up by saying that I talked to an 82 year old Ukrainian refugee. Before this war she lived in the Irpin/Bucha area. When the war broke out she could hear the fighting at Hostomel airport. She also witnessed the brutality of the war crimes. Compared to WW2 she said that the brutality of this war and the Second World War could not be compared. She said that the fighting then usually took place outside of city centers, but in this war they are intentionally killing civilians on the ground.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:12 pm

johns624 wrote:
AirbusCheerlead wrote:
bikerthai wrote:

Of course its a double standard. Why are we asking the West to fight a 21st century war when we are giving the Russian a pass for fighting a 20th century war.



Speaking of 20th century war, many US WWII recruitment posters are really racist and would not be appropriate today. But comparing them to current Russian propraganda is like comparing the city bombing of WWII to the current city bombing by the Russian.

I for one do not fault the Russian for flattening Mariupo during the fighting. If its the only way they know how to fight, then so be it.

But to be fair, if a comparison is to be made to modern "Western" tactics, know that Ramadi, was not flattened.

bt


While Ramadi wasn't turned to rubble, it seems Raqqa in Syria was.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raqqa_(2017)

Or if I take this excerpt from the wiki page on First Battle of Fallujah and apply it to Melitopol is the situation much different?
The protest escalated as gunmen reportedly fired upon U.S. forces from the protesting crowd and U.S. Army soldiers from the 1st Battalion of the 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division returned fire, killing 17 people and wounding more than 70 of the protesters. There were no U.S. Army or coalition casualties in the incident. U.S. forces said that the shooting took place over 30–60 seconds, however other sources claim the shooting continued for half an hour.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_B ... f_Fallujah

With my two examples I just want to illustrate why we should be careful when talking about war crimes and believing in western moral superiority.
I believe the sad thing about war crimes/Geneva Conventions is that if we believe in the cause (= in our view point the war is justified) and if we are at risk of losing or losing many of our soldiers, most would be okay with war crimes/ignoring the Geneva Conventions...

Also I believe that many men and women that agreed to the Geneva Conventions had witnessed the horrors of the two world wars hence they refrained from relativizing war crimes and make them okay if one believes to have the moral high ground.

Best regards and strength to the Ukrainian people,
Jonas
There's a huge difference between isolated atrocities, which every country occasionally has, and the widespread, state sanctioned ones that Russia is guilty of.


Rather like doping scandals at the Olympics, most nations have had athletes that have done it, only one however instituted a state run mass operation to do so.
Just another symptom of ‘Russian Envy Syndrome’.

Same applies to empires, nearly every nation, if you go back far enough has had some form of external possessions at some time, including ones who became independent by fighting one itself.
Even the Scandinavians, not just in the mists of time either, Greenland is Danish, Iceland used to be, certainly not the Dutch who tried after WW2 to bring their Far East possessions back by military action.

Whereas after 1945 the UK was doing the opposite, had it not been for the Cold War it would have completed sooner, with far less fighting. Independence leading to democratic government, not Communists, this also created tensions in Africa, majority rule by the vote, hence Harold Macmillan telling the South African parliament that the game was up for white minority rule.
Did they all stay democratic? Far from it sadly but what does ‘independent’ mean?
Then there was seeing France trying to hold on to French Indo China and Algeria, no thanks!

But French and others policy also changed, since they were subject to the wishes of a democracy, tolerance for hanging on to imperialism was limited, though Algeria was a major political rupture for them.
Russia isn’t like this, where is democratic control of Putin? Or even free speech? The capacity to change?
It is a paradox that the authoritarian system that protects him, allows him to do things like invade Ukraine, also by its nature also via corruption and old habits of both the Czars and Soviets, seriously affect the performance of his armed forces.

Not attempting or wanting to be an apologist for things truly unacceptable today, however it was not just subjugation, which certainly occurred and a lot, that allowed a small island off NW Europe, with a not especially large population, to create and maintain such a vast empire. The Industrial Revolution played a major part too, thus repeating the long history of the most advanced power at the time expanding influence and more. Arguably decolonization began with independence within the Commonwealth of Australia, Canada, NZ, South Africa way before what we call decolonization now.

Russia is trying to build an empire in the 21st century using the military methods of the 20th and the political motivations of the 18th or 19th.
It’s gone beyond intimidating former client states and provinces now independent, sometimes with military force such as Georgia, to a straight land grab in 2014, to a full on attempt to topple an independent government and seize more land and assets with all arms warfare.
It’s what is happening now that counts, that is a clear and present threat that if unchecked, would lead one day to a Russian/NATO confrontation, which given the loud nuclear threats, the insanely stupid activities around nuclear sites showing extreme recklessness, with incalculable consequences for all of human civilization.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:27 pm

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
I'm happy to take our discussion to another thread since our arguments will go further and further away from Ukraine, and they deserve better in this thread.


Actually some of what we are discussing is pertinent to this thread.

As we all see on the videos, some of the infrastructures destruction were initiated by the Ukrainian themselves by necessity (nature of war and the Raqa example).

This in turn will influence how the Ukrainian plan to retake Kerson. It is a complex question with no easy answer.

by
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:30 pm

One of the bosses of Wagner group (Yevgeny Viktorovich Prigozhin) has visited their HQ in Poposna. And they made a nice video and published it.
Of course, important parts in the backround not blurred....
Geolocated and has had fun today with a HIMARS/M270 rocket....
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/wod64z/prigozhin_of_putins_inner_circle_was_visiting_the/
Just let us hope, no cooking for putin any more, instead watching the growing roots of the radish from below.
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:31 am

T4thH wrote:
One of the bosses of Wagner group (Yevgeny Viktorovich Prigozhin) has visited their HQ in Poposna. And they made a nice video and published it.
Of course, important parts in the backround not blurred....
Geolocated and has had fun today with a HIMARS/M270 rocket....
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/wod64z/prigozhin_of_putins_inner_circle_was_visiting_the/
Just let us hope, no cooking for putin any more, instead watching the growing roots of the radish from below.

OK with additional information. Seems the Russian army officials and not the Wagner group itselve have published the photos of the visit to HQ by Russian army officials and according rumours, Yevgeny Viktorovich Prigozhin was at HQ during the attack or nearby.
And how to geolocate it....hmm it is so difficult.https://imgur.com/a/czUXPBS
Could this be the address next to the entrance?

Wagner base aftermath of the attack. The guy has a US patch. It is always nice to get the intel directly from the enemy...next time please in HD and also please some additional details.
https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1558905302401138688?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1558905302401138688%7Ctwgr%5E73b77548eee6e715a8865b62ee4fa13526322671%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fwor87i%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse
 
kelval
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:06 am

AirbusCheerlead wrote:
johns624 wrote:
marcelh wrote:

Not inconvenient at all, but I observe some double standards over here. We are condemning the Russian attacks on cities like Mariupol and others for obvious reasons, just as has been done with targeting cities by the Luftwaffe” as mentioned in the quote made by “Bomber” Harris and posted upthread. But we approve the same when it’s done by the good guys.

The only inconvenient truth is that more Dutchmen were killed by friendly bombings than by the Luftwaffe at Rotterdam. This as a result of “collateral damage” and/or Dutch cities mistakenly seen as German cities when the primary target in Germany couldn’t be bombed.
Here's the nuance that you don't seem to get. Germany and now Russia are the aggressors who started the war. Great Britain didn't just bomb cities on a whim. They were attacked.


Not that I fault them, but it was the UK and France that declared war on Germany.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declara ... rld_War_II

Best regards,
Jonas


It would be the same situation as, say the USA, declaring war on Russia because of their NATO ties after Russia had invaded the baltic states.

At the time, Germany was clearly the aggressor, and knew full well what could happen in result of it's actions.

GB and France did declare war, but were so mentally and moraly unprepared that they didn't take advantage of the fact that almost all the German forces were in Poland to attack such a weak front.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:54 am

kelval wrote:
AirbusCheerlead wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Here's the nuance that you don't seem to get. Germany and now Russia are the aggressors who started the war. Great Britain didn't just bomb cities on a whim. They were attacked.


Not that I fault them, but it was the UK and France that declared war on Germany.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declara ... rld_War_II

Best regards,
Jonas


It would be the same situation as, say the USA, declaring war on Russia because of their NATO ties after Russia had invaded the baltic states.

At the time, Germany was clearly the aggressor, and knew full well what could happen in result of it's actions.

GB and France did declare war, but were so mentally and moraly unprepared that they didn't take advantage of the fact that almost all the German forces were in Poland to attack such a weak front.


Britain had been rearming since 1936, it was a bit like turning around a supertanker but it gathered pace, best example, the Luftwaffe failed in the Battle Of Britain as they were facing the world’s first integrated aid defence system. Which they did not know existed, their intel sucked.

Plans for conscription (which began in early 1939), as well as evacuation of children from large urban centers likely to be bombed, issuing to the population of gas masks if as in WW1 the Germans went there again, stockpiling of essential foodstuffs, rationing ready to go, the dispersal with new construction of industrial facilities for war production, the list is long before war was declared.
It would however take a long time to switch from the traditional small, professional Army to a mass conscription force, largely mechanized, some years in fact.

This was not the same for France, great political instability in the 30’s, military spending which was dominated by projects such as the Maginot Line, it did have one of the largest armies in the world, when Hitler came to power Churchill, one of the few voices in 1933 seriously alarmed by him, said ‘thank god for the French Army’.
Size wasn’t everything though, while Poland was being attacked the French did mount a limited, half hearted Saar Offensive, Germany had left its border with France lightly defended, but though France had plenty of tanks, it was really a defensive force, in both equipment and mindset of its geriatric commanders. Tanks good, tanks with every one radio equipped, much better. Guess who had them and who didn’t?

There were plenty in France then on the political extremes, the far right and far left, both had objections in the 30’s for really preparing for war.
Both UK and France had been traumatized by the huge losses of WW1, only one though had the war on their territory.
In 1940 outside of the US, France was the most motorized nation, forget the largely PR event VW ‘people’s car’, in terms of motor transport compared with population, France was ahead.
This however meant in 1940 the Germans had plenty of facilities to capture and use for refueling, something they seem to have forgotten the following year in even the Western USSR, never mind the Steppes.

I suspect that Russia was heavily counting on political divisions, which they have been prime movers in creating, inside Ukraine, which would have totally undermined serious resistance to the ‘Special Military Operation’, it had worked in Crimea, to a degree in the Eastern Ukraine too in 2014.
Knock over Zelenskiy, install a client puppet, the sort Ukrainians have made clear they don’t want more than once since 2004, however the Ukrainian leader did not flee, did not, like Stalin on hearing news of the German invasion, have what appeared to be a nervous breakdown and pissed off to his dacha for a period. (Try recounting that in Russia!)
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:07 am

There is a video of a catastrophic failure of a Ukrainian 2S7 Pion...I will not link, as it is graphic, RIP crew. Seems the 2S7 Pion are the first, who are now worn out and failing on both sites (two weeks ago there was the first image of a Russian 2S7 Pion with a catastrophic failed barrel). Ukraine will likely not able to replace the barrels for some or all.

A Russian "Grenadier" border surveillance tower in Belgorod is tired and takes a nap in slow motion. Sleep well.... :white:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/woty4z/footage_of_an_ukrainian_drone_taking_out_an_tv/
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:02 am

GDB wrote:
Speaking of mobilization and very back on topic, Perun's latest deep dive concerns Ukrainian mobilization, training, how it evolved, where it is going, what is likely still required;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVx3Nlifo4Q

Plus a brief look at what was targeted in that suspected HIMARS strike yesterday;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pOKWFcJht4


Could not have been HIMARS. Russia has destroyed 20 of the 16 delivered.
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:08 am

Fishing in Karkhiv Oblast...
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/wovtwm/fishing_in_kharkiv_oblast/
"OK, thats it. Fishing is over"

And I would never blame anyone, who would get back with wet pants from this.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:43 am

VolvoBus wrote:
GDB wrote:
Speaking of mobilization and very back on topic, Perun's latest deep dive concerns Ukrainian mobilization, training, how it evolved, where it is going, what is likely still required;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVx3Nlifo4Q

Plus a brief look at what was targeted in that suspected HIMARS strike yesterday;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pOKWFcJht4


Could not have been HIMARS. Russia has destroyed 20 of the 16 delivered.


Yes, Perun showed some claimed by Russia destroyed ‘HIMARS’, one image looked more like something made out of Lego.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:46 am

T4thH wrote:
Fishing in Karkhiv Oblast...
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/wovtwm/fishing_in_kharkiv_oblast/
"OK, thats it. Fishing is over"

And I would never blame anyone, who would get back with wet pants from this.


BTL, some comments and links saying it’s from 2015?
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:10 pm

GDB wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Fishing in Karkhiv Oblast...
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/wovtwm/fishing_in_kharkiv_oblast/
"OK, thats it. Fishing is over"

And I would never blame anyone, who would get back with wet pants from this.


BTL, some comments and links saying it’s from 2015?

Yes, it seems so. Video has also been deleted and seems unrelated to the war.
 
tomcat
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:46 pm

Interesting:
A senior Kremlin official has approached Western diplomats and intelligence chiefs in a bid to help end the war in Ukraine, it was alleged last night.

The source is said to have claimed that much of Moscow's elite are highly concerned about the trajectory of Russian president Vladimir Putin's invasion into the neighbouring country and are alarmed by the bite of wide-ranging sanctions levied by the West in response.


Has the time for diplomacy finally arrived?

https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11111535/amp/Senior-Kremlin-official-secretly-approaches-West-bring-Ukraine-invasion-end.html
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:15 pm

My suspicion is that the 'senior Kremlin official' is trying to save his own skin. He thinks that Russia will ,at best, only be able to keep what they had at the start, and, at worst, it will be Ukraine (officially) dictating terms. One of these might be handing over senior government and military figures to stand trial for war crimes, and his name is on the list.

Fanciful ? Maybe. But look at the situation from inside Russia. What would they do to top Ukrainians ?
 
Reinhardt
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:22 pm

It's the Daily Mail. I would take anything they write with a pinch of salt the size of a football.

"it was alleged" is usually Mail talk for "our editor" just like "people are angry" instead of "our paymasters".

Saying that, I don't doubt (and sincerely hope so) that many of the Moscow Elite and even some of those closest to Putin are seriously bothered now. But whether they have the balls to stand up and say so, or come together to be able to do anything is entirely different.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:37 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
It's the Daily Mail. I would take anything they write with a pinch of salt the size of a football.

"it was alleged" is usually Mail talk for "our editor" just like "people are angry" instead of "our paymasters".

Saying that, I don't doubt (and sincerely hope so) that many of the Moscow Elite and even some of those closest to Putin are seriously bothered now. But whether they have the balls to stand up and say so, or come together to be able to do anything is entirely different.


Agreed, months ago he sacked FSB (his old team) officials for bringing him bad news.
Though the Ukrainians have dealt with high ranking military officers in their own way.

The Daily Mail is essentially The National Enquirer that takes itself seriously.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:36 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
It's the Daily Mail. I would take anything they write with a pinch of salt the size of a football.

"it was alleged" is usually Mail talk for "our editor" just like "people are angry" instead of "our paymasters".

Saying that, I don't doubt (and sincerely hope so) that many of the Moscow Elite and even some of those closest to Putin are seriously bothered now. But whether they have the balls to stand up and say so, or come together to be able to do anything is entirely different.


I'm certainly not defending the despicable rag that is the Daily Mail, but they credit The Mirror with the story.

Either way, I'm taking it with a very large dose of salt.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:28 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
Saying that, I don't doubt (and sincerely hope so) that many of the Moscow Elite and even some of those closest to Putin are seriously bothered now. But whether they have the balls to stand up and say so, or come together to be able to do anything is entirely different.


I believe the Russian elite and cabal of oligarchs to be powerless against Putin. They essentially owe everything to him and in the process of giving them a big slice of the pie he has made sure that he has enough leverage on them that they will never turn on him.

Much like in the mafia, turning on the boss usually means a severe shortening of your life expectancy, and you don't even get the courtesy of a horse's head in your bed first. There is a trail of dead Russian oligarchs which started right around the same time as the 'special military operation' which would test the faith of the staunchest believers of coincidences.
 
T4thH
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:19 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:
Saying that, I don't doubt (and sincerely hope so) that many of the Moscow Elite and even some of those closest to Putin are seriously bothered now. But whether they have the balls to stand up and say so, or come together to be able to do anything is entirely different.


I believe the Russian elite and cabal of oligarchs to be powerless against Putin. They essentially owe everything to him and in the process of giving them a big slice of the pie he has made sure that he has enough leverage on them that they will never turn on him.

Much like in the mafia, turning on the boss usually means a severe shortening of your life expectancy, and you don't even get the courtesy of a horse's head in your bed first. There is a trail of dead Russian oligarchs which started right around the same time as the 'special military operation' which would test the faith of the staunchest believers of coincidences.


The oligarchs of some companies (including in some cases with their families) have had some unexpected events recently. They have had accidents....or got ill....
To be an oligarch connected to Gazprom....have better connections to something else...

Juri Woronow, was swimming begin of Jul face down in his pool.
Anatoli Tschubai, got heavily ill, is in hospital (rumored, has had a meeting with a toxin)
Leonid Shulman: was found in his bathroom in January. Officially suicide...was a bloody mess.
Alexander Tyulakov, on 25 February....played hangman in the own garage,
Vladislav Avayev and his whole family in April...he has had a gun in his hand and shall have killed first his wive and daughther and than himself.
Sergei Protosenya and whole family in Apr 2022. He shall have first killed his whole family and commited suicide. Played hangman in his garden
Alexander Subbotin: infarct, frirst stated as toxin on his skin. Later on the pathology report was changed to alcohol + cocain.
Alexey Ogarev, found dead in Jun in his datcha, reason unknown.
Jewgeni Palant...whole family. In this case, his wife has killed him (stabbed to death), after this her daughter (20 years) and than suicide.
https://www.news.de/politik/856417815/wladimir-putin-eiskalt-todesserie-bei-russischen-oligarchen-was-steckt-hinter-todesfaellen-von-juri-woronow-leonid-shulman-co/1/
Good question, what is already going on and who (or who all?) is responsible.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:39 pm

T4thH wrote:
oligarchs of some companies (including in some cases with their families) have had some unexpected events recently. They have had accidents....or got ill....


Dang. I can see now how even today Trump has yet to say a bad thing about Putin. He probably does not belive the Secret Service can protect him from Putin's wrath.

I take back earlier comment about Putin having dirt on Trump. While it may be true, I see now Trump may worry more about him being put into the dirt.

bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:39 pm

Remember way back when the US started to use drone strikes? There was a question of ethicacy on the ability to kill a person by remote control.

Well, after this war, I don't think drone strikes will have the same negative taboo from the rest of the world. For better or for worse, the many videos of drones dropping bonds on regular soldiers have a desensitizing effect.

bt
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:38 pm

Could Russia even mobilize if it wanted to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeTsyPfOk8k
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:55 am

One thing about not having enough troops for the invasion.

The front lines will be porous and the rear will not have sufficient security and more vulnerable to sabotage.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/08/16 ... a-news-war

Just speculating here. With the Russian fleet evacuated from Crimea, would the coastline be vulnerable to small boat infiltration?

bt
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:00 pm

Another explosion in Crimea, probable military storage facility;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_AZVrQlnDQ

Russia admits it's sabotage, either internally, or by Ukrainian special forces or a more likely combination;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62560041
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:03 pm

GDB wrote:
Another explosion in Crimea, probable military storage facility;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_AZVrQlnDQ

Russia admits it's sabotage, either internally, or by Ukrainian special forces or a more likely combination;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62560041

Seems to be quite extensive as rail travel in northern Crimea has been suspended with 10km of railway destroyed. There seem to be explosions at another airfield at Hvardiiske in central Crimea as well:
https://kyivindependent.com/national/ex ... ied-crimea

Time for the Crimean tourist board to shred all its 2022 brochures . . . :D
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:11 pm

A Bellingcat journalist reports that the airbase houses 24 Su-24 & 25s:
https://twitter.com/Flash43191300/statu ... 2303000577
 
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scbriml
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:17 pm

GDB wrote:
Another explosion in Crimea, probable military storage facility;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_AZVrQlnDQ

Russia admits it's sabotage, either internally, or by Ukrainian special forces or a more likely combination;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62560041


Image
Source: https://newfastuff.com/wp-content/uploa ... urlGkp.png
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:25 pm

As Oscar Wilde would have said, to lose one airbase is a misfortune, to lose two is sheer carelessness :lol:
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:28 pm

While no confirmation on what cause the explosions, just want to emphasize the utility of the Switchblade 300.

Being man portable, they can be carried into the occupied territory. They would allow the SF to strike at these targets without having to get too close to the bases.

Time to reallocate those anti-drone systems from the front line to the rear areas.

bt
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:43 pm

bikerthai wrote:
While no confirmation on what cause the explosions, just want to emphasize the utility of the Switchblade 300.

Being man portable, they can be carried into the occupied territory. They would allow the SF to strike at these targets without having to get too close to the bases.

Time to reallocate those anti-drone systems from the front line to the rear areas.

bt


I heard some time ago that the initial deliveries had been used but there will have been subsequent ones and/or some put by by this sort of deep penetration mission against major targets.
Two airfields? 21st version of LRDG/SAS missions in the Western Desert.

A bit more on that and general update;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9fJj6fCy4c
 
cskok8
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:37 pm

The Russian army really should teach their conscripts how to dispose of their cigarette butts properly

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