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Klaus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:44 pm

Vintage wrote:
Has somebody 'compared' Germany's military with Russia's? I haven't seen that.

Revelation & you just above:

Vintage wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It makes one wonder whose military is more hollow, Russia or Germany.
That's easy: Germany.


You sure like to wallow into Byzantine German political theory.

No, I just happen to actually know what is actually going on here in Germany and what the actual causes for the current state really are rather than just spewing ignorant, prejudiced bluster wall to wall.

You've clearly missed or just chosen to ignore that I've repeatedly thrown my support behind a further significant ramp-up of military support for Ukraine for the obvious reasons already discussed and representatives of my vote in this government are indeed pushing for that but foaming at the mouth is not helping in any way. Actually knowing what is actually happening and what its context is does actually matter in a discussion about reality which this thread is supposed to be if I'm no mistaken.

If you want a screaming hate-rally there are other places for that.
Last edited by Klaus on Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Klaus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:50 pm

johns624 wrote:
It isn't so much Germany not having ready reserves to give to Ukraine; it's also their dragging their feet on allowing other countries to give Leopard 2s.

Whether that is the case remains to be seen in hindsight at a later point but the pressure clearly needs to stay on; As I've said repeatedly the obvious venue to finalize such a joint decision is next Friday's meeting with rapid release thereafter.

Coalition building is usually happening behind closed doors primarily, so it may or may not be that it's indeed Olaf Scholz who's just randomly dragging his feet there. It is certainly a useful public narrative to keep the public pressure on and building on it but whether it has actually been the case remains to be seen.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:14 am

Klaus wrote:
Post-war Germany has never pretended or aspired to be the second most powerful military force on the planet for obvious reasons, so a comparison with Russia is patently absurd ideologically driven nonsense, and military might has never been a point of national pride since WWII.


Correct I did not intend to compare Germany to Russia.

I was saying for the longest time Germany had to act as if it was a frontline country. It would have been German soil that would have been bloodied.

Now the front line state is Poland and Ukraine. The sooner it accepts this the sooner it would put those tanks where they are needed.

bt
 
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alberchico
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:15 am

https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1 ... de%3Dfalse

How realistic is this assessment, that Putin will try to recreate the same 3 front strategy of Feb but on a much larger scale ? I just don't see any offense from Belarus aimed to capture Kiev succeeding, because this time Ukraine will be better prepared. Also, because NATO will be closely observing any large movements of soldiers or weapons, the chances of the Russians having the element of surprise are almost zero.

Also, there seems to be persistent rumors coming from Ukraine about Putin launching another massive wave of mobilization to draft 500k additional men into the army for a spring offensive sometime this month. How likely is that ?
 
Klaus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:50 am

bikerthai wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Post-war Germany has never pretended or aspired to be the second most powerful military force on the planet for obvious reasons, so a comparison with Russia is patently absurd ideologically driven nonsense, and military might has never been a point of national pride since WWII.


Correct I did not intend to compare Germany to Russia.

See the second part of my statement which referred to this gem:

bikerthai wrote:
It's part of the 5 step grieving process. They are coming to terms that they are longer Europe land army powerhouse that will protect the West from Russia. It will be Ukraine and Poland.

Such a drop in pride will take time to process. Once they accept this, they will finally donate the tanks.

And that is completely fictitious nonsense which has nothing at all to do with the actual mindset in Germany in post-WWII past or present.

Public "pride" in the military was just mostly not a factor at all in recent decades, which was exactly why the mismanagement in recent years was never reined in under Merkel.

Ignorance is one of the most dangerous factors in a war, and that is as true among allies as toward an adversary.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:26 am

johns624 wrote:
When it comes right down to it, I think part of the German reluctance to send their own tanks is that they now realize that they've let things get so bad that they won't have enough if they need them. Seeing as how Russia would be the only reason that they'd need them, sending them to Ukraine would keep them from needing them for Russia. They have time to get the new production while Ukraine is holding off the Russian hordes...

How does that mindset / thinking affect other countries who have workable tanks who have already lined up to send them to Ukraine, it appears as if all that they need from Germany is permission. Germany can keep their stock in case they need them.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:48 am

Germany has a substantial number of people with pro-Russian sentiment, Scholz is apparently one of them. Last month he told Putin all would be forgiven and they could go back to being trading partners again if Russia ended the war in Ukraine.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ru ... 022-12-12/

This strikes me as delusional thinking, but that's what he was trying to propose. Putin took note of it, I'm sure.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:50 am

Klaus wrote:
Public "pride" in the military was just mostly not a factor at all in recent decades, which was exactly why the mismanagement in recent years was never reined in under Merkel.


I agree with the "public pride" aspect. Some how I figured there was still a sliver of pride from the Government and sufficient pride from within the Arm Force itself.

bt
 
Klaus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:07 am

Vintage wrote:
Germany has a substantial number of people with pro-Russian sentiment, Scholz is apparently one of them. Last month he told Putin all would be forgiven and they could go back to being trading partners again if Russia ended the war in Ukraine.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ru ... 022-12-12/

This strikes me as delusional thinking, but that's what he was trying to propose. Putin took note of it, I'm sure.

That is a complete misrepresentation of the actual statements by Scholz as evident when actually reading the statement at your own link:

BERLIN, Dec 12 (Reuters) - German Chancellor Olaf Scholz said on Monday that economic cooperation between Germany and Russia could be possible again if the Kremlin ended its war in Ukraine.

Scholz has said in previous speeches that the West would not lift sanctions imposed on Russia in response to its invasion of Ukraine until Moscow withdrew its troops from Ukraine and reached a peace agreement with Kyiv.

"At the moment the relations we have are being reduced, reduced, reduced," he told the German Committee on Eastern European Economic Relations, referring to western sanctions on Russia that have quashed bilateral trade and investment.

"But a Russia that ends the war," Scholz said, should be given a chance for renewed economic cooperation. "But that is not now."

None of what you said is actually evident in what Scholz really said (a month ago on December 12th, by the way), only that Russia's complete withdrawal from Ukraine and a peace treaty between Russia and Ukraine would be preconditions for a possible resumption of economic relations, which is actually a wide-ranging consensus and which most likely also includes the ukrainian leadership.

Notably an actual peace treaty is not a small thing at all and would require all hostilities to have been resolved after Russia's withdrawal and Ukraine's safety being guaranteed, not just a mere ceasefire!

Such a peace treaty requires Ukraine to be convinced that Russia is a sufficiently trustworthy partner to go ahead with such a treaty and I can only imagine that when the murderous, lying bunch of bandits in the Kremlin today have been replaced and major changes in Russia undertaken. This is a very heavy lift and a very long and steep road to there as things stand.

This is a very remote goal and will most likely require regime change in Russia to even have a chance, and likely a number of years in the best of cases even if Russia completely overturned its attitudes we see today.

There is exactly nothing Putin could derive any solace from in this as he himself cannot be in place any more to achieve any of those preconditions, in turn meaning that as long as Putin is in power, Russia cannot expect to escape the western sanctions, just without making this explicit for the hard of hearing.

But Russia as a country can, and it merits mention by a western head of government that the destruction of Russia is not in any way a goal (which is the ludicrous fake propaganda claim reiterated ad nauseam on russian state TV!) but only Russia becoming a responsible, trustworthy member of the international community. (Unfortunately I could not justify the "again" which would normally go there.)

It is in fact important to counter that narrative with a constructive narrative instead, and that is what Scholz has proposed there.

The Russia of today cannot get there, but a renewed, peaceful Russia can. That is indeed relevant.

You seem so deeply steeped in your rabid germanophobia by now that you can't even read perfectly clear news articles without completely misunderstanding them.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:42 am

I'm reminded of an old saying--"Actions speak louder than words".
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:43 am

par13del wrote:
johns624 wrote:
When it comes right down to it, I think part of the German reluctance to send their own tanks is that they now realize that they've let things get so bad that they won't have enough if they need them. Seeing as how Russia would be the only reason that they'd need them, sending them to Ukraine would keep them from needing them for Russia. They have time to get the new production while Ukraine is holding off the Russian hordes...

How does that mindset / thinking affect other countries who have workable tanks who have already lined up to send them to Ukraine, it appears as if all that they need from Germany is permission. Germany can keep their stock in case they need them.
I have no idea. It befuddles me. You might want to ask Klaus.
 
Klaus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:14 am

par13del wrote:
johns624 wrote:
When it comes right down to it, I think part of the German reluctance to send their own tanks is that they now realize that they've let things get so bad that they won't have enough if they need them. Seeing as how Russia would be the only reason that they'd need them, sending them to Ukraine would keep them from needing them for Russia. They have time to get the new production while Ukraine is holding off the Russian hordes...

How does that mindset / thinking affect other countries who have workable tanks who have already lined up to send them to Ukraine, it appears as if all that they need from Germany is permission. Germany can keep their stock in case they need them.

Finland, as an example, has explicitly stated that they can provide only a part of their Leo 2 stocks which is obviously sensible given that they have a long, precarious border with Russia, even more so now given the heightened tensions with Russia about their ongoing NATO accession.

And other countries aren't completely stripping themselves of their entire tank forces without immediate replacement either.

So that "mindset" is actually universal.

Only when actual numbers are on the table it makes sense to talk about and potentially criticize them in the actual context of the respective militaries, and they aren't yet for the most part.

I wouldn't even criticize the token number of british tanks as theirs would probably not be the optimal choice even in somewhat larger numbers which probably still wouldn't be worth the logistical complexity, but that is exactly why context matters. Even if it's most likely just an uncoordinated attempt of PR diversion from domestic Tory issues Ukraine will still make the most of those anyway.

It is convenient and clearly satisfies many people's existing prejudices to engage in Germany-bashing but with all the justified urgency wars still aren't won by intensity of ideological fervour but by clearly viewing reality and acting accordingly.

Otherwise Europe and Russia would now be under nazi rule, because if there was one thing Hitler never ran out of it was ideological fervour. Putin should have taken note of that before starting this criminal war.

Still to the matter of the MBT decision: It is quite implausible that the US administration would be held back only by a hesitant Olaf Scholz, but a lot more plausible that indeed allied coordination is currently going on in preparation of the Friday meeting of the Ukraine contact group.
Last edited by Klaus on Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Klaus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:15 am

johns624 wrote:
I'm reminded of an old saying--"Actions speak louder than words".

How's that going for Vladimir Putin, then?
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:13 am

From UK Prime Minister's Office

UK defence and security officials believe a window has opened up where Russia is on the backfoot due to resupply issues and plummeting morale. The Prime Minister is therefore encouraging allies to deploy their planned support for 2023 as soon as possible to have maximum impact.

Sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is the start of a gear change in the UK’s support. A squadron of 14 tanks will go into the country in the coming weeks after the Prime Minister told President Zelenskyy that the UK would provide additional support to aid Ukraine’s land war. Around 30 AS90s, which are large, self-propelled guns, operated by five gunners, are expected to follow. The Defence Secretary will set out further details of this support in the House of Commons on Monday.

The UK will begin training the Ukrainian Armed Forces to use the tanks and guns in the coming days, as part of wider UK efforts which have seen thousands of Ukrainian troops trained in the UK over the last six months.

The Prime Minister has tasked the Defence Secretary with bringing together European allies to ensure the surge of global military support is as strategic and coordinated as possible. The Defence Secretary will travel to Estonia and Germany this week to work with NATO allies and other international partners to this end.

Meanwhile, the Foreign Secretary will travel to the United States later this week to discuss how the UK and US can leverage our position as leading supporters of Ukraine to galvanise further international action.

He will also travel to Canada – another of Ukraine’s staunchest supporters – to discuss closer coordination on international sanctions and our coordinated effort to boost our support to Ukraine.


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-a ... putins-war

I like the sense of urgency being demonstrated by the UK.

Ukraine is determined to do everything possible to win this war. Would that the west would show the same determination.
 
Klaus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:36 am

art wrote:
Ukraine is determined to do everything possible to win this war. Would that the west would show the same determination.

So how many ukrainian refugees has the UK accepted so far, given that that is one of the most urgent aspects of this crisis...?

Practically none, not for a lack of requests, even when relatives already live there? Ah.

Maybe then better keep a clear view and a wider perspective on what is political PR and what is sincere (and it can even be a mix of both).

Putin's main strategy is to sow chaos and division in Europe. We should keep a clear view on reality and not do him the favour of falling for old cliches and prejudices which he will exploit to the max.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:00 am

Klaus wrote:
I just happen to actually know what is actually going on here in Germany and what the actual causes for the current state really are rather than just spewing ignorant, prejudiced bluster wall to wall.
Who are you accusing of spewing ignorant, prejudiced bluster wall to wall?
Please answer, don't dodge this one.

Klaus wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'm reminded of an old saying--"Actions speak louder than words".

How's that going for Vladimir Putin, then?
In case you didn't know, Johns has been quite anti Putin all along. It sounds like you're implying otherwise.

Yea, I paraphrased Scholz, and I also provided the link for the exact wording. Scholz is from the same party as Merkel, he appears to have the same agenda, like you he wants those bad Americans to go away so that he can bring all the Europeans together in a lovefest (with Russia included), so everybody can be just like they always have been over the last thousand years.

That's the message he projects by his actions. He appears to be saying one thing and doing another.
He is preventing Poland from giving Ukraine Tanks by his action of failing to act (give permission) and then hiding behind 'bureaucracy' that he himself is creating.
 
Klaus
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:00 am

Vintage wrote:
Klaus wrote:
I just happen to actually know what is actually going on here in Germany and what the actual causes for the current state really are rather than just spewing ignorant, prejudiced bluster wall to wall.
Who are you accusing of spewing ignorant, prejudiced bluster wall to wall?
Please answer, don't dodge this one.

Take a guess.

Klaus wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'm reminded of an old saying--"Actions speak louder than words".

How's that going for Vladimir Putin, then?
In case you didn't know, Johns has been quite anti Putin all along. It sounds like you're implying otherwise.

And another complete misinterpretation.

Actions are important, but especially when working together across and even beyond continents coordination and preparation is crucial to achieve constructive success (contrary to Putin's destructive failures).

Yea, I paraphrased Scholz, and I also provided the link for the exact wording.

No, you twisted his very clear words into practically the opposite! See above.

Scholz is from the same party as Merkel,

And wrong again! Scholz is SPD (social democratic party), Merkel is CDU (christian democratic union = conservatives), at least in previous times corresponding to Democrats and Republicans in the US. (Today's Republicans are unfortunately much closer to the german AfD.)

he appears to have the same agenda,

Absolutely not – SPD and CDU/CSU (CSU is the conservative sister party exclusively in Bavaria) have largely opposite policy positions in most matters (with CDU/CSU indeed currently in opposition!), just that they both support the democratic institutions of the state and enter into a coaliton only when vote results leave absolutely no other option (with the AfD and Linke categorically shunned by both).

And even the partial(!) consensus about foreign policy was radically changed – in both major parties pretty much in parallel, actually – when Putin invaded Ukraine.

like you he wants those bad Americans to go away so that he can bring all the Europeans together in a lovefest (with Russia included), so everybody can be just like they always have been over the last thousand years.

That is so stunningly absurd and not even in the same universe both regarding myself and – as far as anyone can say – regarding Olaf Scholz that I would laugh out loud if the subject wasn't so serious.

See my post on the actual content of Scholz's statement above.

That's the message he projects by his actions. He appears to be saying one thing and doing another.

Nope. His actual rhetoric and his actions are actually quite in sync – which is exactly where I and both of his current coalition partners (Greens and econo-liberal FDP) are frequently unhappy with him because we all would like a lot more leadership.

Government decisions are not actually taken by him alone, however, even though the Bundeskanzler formally has the right to the final word on policies; In a coalition government he is in regular coordination with the leads of the other parties and if he was completely off the rails there would be much stronger language by those.

The statement you linked to just isn't a problem – it is actually correct and needs to be reiterated more often by other international leaders to counter the toxic lies spread in Russia for the reasons I have explained above.

He is preventing Poland from giving Ukraine Tanks by his action of failing to act (give permission) and then hiding behind 'bureaucracy' that he himself is creating.

Again another distortion as that is simply not true. He has consistently stated that it is a matter of coordination with the allies, not "bureaucracy", when to take the decision to supply western main battle tanks to Ukraine – which the USA have not done either nor even just announced (and Republicans in true Trump fealty to Putin even threatening to pull the rug out from under Ukraine completely).

Which on the whole still makes the position stated by Scholz a lot more credible than it were if the US had already announced the delivery of M1. Or would you seriously suggest that Olaf Scholz controlled that decision in Washington, too? Laughable!

US minister of defense Austin is on his way to Berlin and then Rammstein to take part in the meeting on Friday, which is the most likely venue to take that coordinated decision as I have already said.
Last edited by Klaus on Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:01 am

Vintage wrote:
Klaus wrote:
I just happen to actually know what is actually going on here in Germany and what the actual causes for the current state really are rather than just spewing ignorant, prejudiced bluster wall to wall.
Who are you accusing of spewing ignorant, prejudiced bluster wall to wall?
Please answer, don't dodge this one.

Klaus wrote:
johns624 wrote:
I'm reminded of an old saying--"Actions speak louder than words".

How's that going for Vladimir Putin, then?
In case you didn't know, Johns has been quite anti Putin all along. It sounds like you're implying otherwise.

Yea, I paraphrased Scholz, and I also provided the link for the exact wording. Scholz is from the same party as Merkel, he appears to have the same agenda, like you he wants those bad Americans to go away so that he can bring all the Europeans together in a lovefest (with Russia included), so everybody can be just like they always have been over the last thousand years.

That's the message he projects by his actions. He appears to be saying one thing and doing another.
He is preventing Poland from giving Ukraine Tanks by his action of failing to act (give permission) and then hiding behind 'bureaucracy' that he himself is creating.


I'm afraid you've shown a bit of ignorance of the German political landscape here.
Scholz is not part of the same party as Merkel.
He was in a coalition with Merkel before this parliament.
Scholz is from the center-left SPD, whereas Merkel is from the center-right CDU (now the major opposition party in Germany)

However, that is not to say that from my impression Scholz likes to behave likd Merkel did as to wait and see if the problem will go away on its own or see where the wind is blowing
It must be a pretty stormy wind if even the historically pacifist Gredn party in his coalition are advocating for Leo2s.

But I agree with Klaus on the consensus.
Country a can say they are sending 10 tanks but country b needs to agree and perhaps counties c, d etc could chip in to make it a proper fighting force.
So without all countries at once agreeing together that they'll do it, it's all a bit too little.

But I agree the decision is taking its time.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:26 am

art wrote:
From UK Prime Minister's Office

UK defence and security officials believe a window has opened up where Russia is on the backfoot due to resupply issues and plummeting morale. The Prime Minister is therefore encouraging allies to deploy their planned support for 2023 as soon as possible to have maximum impact.

Sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is the start of a gear change in the UK’s support. A squadron of 14 tanks will go into the country in the coming weeks after the Prime Minister told President Zelenskyy that the UK would provide additional support to aid Ukraine’s land war. Around 30 AS90s, which are large, self-propelled guns, operated by five gunners, are expected to follow. The Defence Secretary will set out further details of this support in the House of Commons on Monday.

The UK will begin training the Ukrainian Armed Forces to use the tanks and guns in the coming days, as part of wider UK efforts which have seen thousands of Ukrainian troops trained in the UK over the last six months.

The Prime Minister has tasked the Defence Secretary with bringing together European allies to ensure the surge of global military support is as strategic and coordinated as possible. The Defence Secretary will travel to Estonia and Germany this week to work with NATO allies and other international partners to this end.

Meanwhile, the Foreign Secretary will travel to the United States later this week to discuss how the UK and US can leverage our position as leading supporters of Ukraine to galvanise further international action.

He will also travel to Canada – another of Ukraine’s staunchest supporters – to discuss closer coordination on international sanctions and our coordinated effort to boost our support to Ukraine.


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-a ... putins-war

I like the sense of urgency being demonstrated by the UK.

Ukraine is determined to do everything possible to win this war. Would that the west would show the same determination.


At last the AS-90’s, the number sounds about the number that could be spared, more are in storage but like much else, the Royal Artillery has been reduced too much in the past dozen years so you want spares and attrition.
The turret of the AS-90 is used in the Polish Krab SPG, numbers of which have been sent with many more scheduled.

The spares and attrition factor needs to be considered elsewhere, I don’t actually expect Germany to send many of its Leopards just to mainly facilitate, fact is the industrial and training support will be their lead role here, training along with presumably Poland too. Geographically the most logical places.
So, what is really needed is from various donors, a roughly common standard of Leopard 2’s, there are a plethora of various models/upgraded versions.

The Challenger 2 hasn’t the raw numbers, the previously mentioned differences in guns etc, still a full squadron of 14 is a start and enough could potentially be supplied but realistically only enough for at most another two squadrons, plus Challenger chassis support vehicles for them, it is the heaviest of the MBT’s.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:07 am

ReverseFlow wrote:
I'm afraid you've shown a bit of ignorance of the German political landscape here.
Scholz is not part of the same party as Merkel.
OK not the same party, I read a description of the current German political situation somewhere and read too much into the bit about them being from the same coalition.

ReverseFlow wrote:
But I agree with Klaus on the consensus.
Country a can say they are sending 10 tanks but country b needs to agree and perhaps counties c, d etc could chip in to make it a proper fighting force.
So without all countries at once agreeing together that they'll do it, it's all a bit too little.

But I agree the decision is taking its time.
I don't get this 'consensus' idea. Poland is willing to send the tanks but Scholz won't give permission, how does that equate "without all countries at once agreeing together that they'll do it". The only country that needs to agree is Germany. Just like with the Swiss ammunition, Switzerland is the only country that needs to agree.

This argument to bundle individual countries decisions is unsupported by anything past or present afik, the US is quite independent in its actions I'm sure. I can't imagine Biden sitting in his office waiting for a phone call from Scholz giving him permission to do something. Britain is acting independently.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:16 am

Klaus wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Klaus wrote:
I just happen to actually know what is actually going on here in Germany and what the actual causes for the current state really are rather than just spewing ignorant, prejudiced bluster wall to wall.
Who are you accusing of spewing ignorant, prejudiced bluster wall to wall?
Please answer, don't dodge this one.

Take a guess.
So this is your underhanded way of making an accusation without standing behind it?
Can you provide a link to this ignorant, prejudiced wall to wall bluster that you say I've been spewing?
Or can you offer an apology?

btw
My mistake about Scholz's party affiliation came after this post of yours.
 
mjgbtv
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:35 pm

alberchico wrote:
https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1614711789891235841?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1614711789891235841%7Ctwgr%5E6e32d3ede1678429bc646fbe21e269b632dc9b87%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2F10ctqan%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse

How realistic is this assessment, that Putin will try to recreate the same 3 front strategy of Feb but on a much larger scale ? I just don't see any offense from Belarus aimed to capture Kiev succeeding, because this time Ukraine will be better prepared. Also, because NATO will be closely observing any large movements of soldiers or weapons, the chances of the Russians having the element of surprise are almost zero.

Also, there seems to be persistent rumors coming from Ukraine about Putin launching another massive wave of mobilization to draft 500k additional men into the army for a spring offensive sometime this month. How likely is that ?


That seems unrealistic based on everything that I have read.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:58 pm

Vintage wrote:

But I agree the decision is taking its time.
I don't get this 'consensus' idea. Poland is willing to send the tanks but Scholz won't give permission, how does that equate "without all countries at once agreeing together that they'll do it". The only country that needs to agree is Germany.
[/quote]
I believe that's the whole point. Germany wants a consensus that they and their decisions still matter. If there is that much anti-Ukraine feeling in Germany, then maybe they shouldn't be a European leader. After all, that would equate to being pro-Russian. Or is it just that Germany is afraid of Russia and wants it to be a "group" effort so that they don't get singled out?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:45 pm

Klaus wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Has somebody 'compared' Germany's military with Russia's? I haven't seen that.

Revelation & you just above:

Vintage wrote:
Revelation wrote:
It makes one wonder whose military is more hollow, Russia or Germany.

That's easy: Germany.


Yes, for the record, I drew the comparison that others seemed to have missed after my post, and you seemed to not object too strongly to by writing of the "progressive degradation of military capability in the 16 years of the Merkel government" in Germany.

Personally, I think things are to the point where Germany can't refuse to allow others to export Leopard tanks, but as you wrote, we shall see how events unfold this Friday. I hope German leadership understands that if they look outside their bubble they will find ridicule if they continue to use bureaucratic means to block Ukraine from getting Leopard tanks from other nations.

Personally I value your contributions and those of Vintage as well. I also acknowledge that Germany has provided lots of military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine.

I value that you took apart the Reuters piece that referred to Scholz's previous speeches as insisting on a peace agreement, but his actual words they quoted just said Russia needs to end the war, which IMO can be interpreted as a unilateral cessation without a peace agreement. I see you wrote that foreign policy was changed after Putin invaded Ukraine, but some worry about the depth of conviction behind such a change, and such statements need to be free of ambiguity.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:00 pm

johns624 wrote:
Or is it just that Germany is afraid of Russia and wants it to be a "group" effort so that they don't get singled out?

There's no doubt there's strength in numbers, and in the end support for the equipment will have to come from Germany regardless of the source of the equipment. Let's hope some sort of workable approach is authorized on Friday.
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:18 pm

Just for the record, India is buying 33 times more Russian oil than a year ago.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 035273.cms

I wonder how much China is now buying. Both countries must be benefitting enormously from discounted oil purchases from Russia. I suppose that they are not too concerned about war continuing in Ukraine or actually see that as being to their advantage.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:45 pm

art wrote:
Just for the record, India is buying 33 times more Russian oil than a year ago.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 035273.cms

I wonder how much China is now buying. Both countries must be benefitting enormously from discounted oil purchases from Russia. I suppose that they are not too concerned about war continuing in Ukraine or actually see that as being to their advantage.

My understanding is they are buying it at well-below market rates, which is good for them, yet not so good for Ruzzia. It's a long journey from Ruzzian ports to either India or China, these increased transport costs have to be paid, which lowers the price being offered for Ruzzian oil. Net result is a big reduction of cash into the Ruzzian government's budget.

As for ethics, I think both see themselves as 'un-aligned' so they don't struggle much with the ethical side of things. One can always find a buyer if you lower the price low enough. The question is, can you make money at such a low price point?
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:55 pm

Meanwhile, in the Ruzzian Army:

A Russian army sergeant has detonated an anti-personnel fragmentation grenade in a military base in Russia's Belgorod region, killing at least three other soldiers.

The grenade ignited ammunition stored in neighbouring buildings in the village, Russian media reported, setting off more explosions.

The Baza Telegram channel, which is linked to Russia's security services, said that it took firemen four hours to extinguish the blaze.

Other Russian media reported that the blasts injured 16 mobilised men from the Sverdlovsk region in the Urals. Nine soldiers are still missing.

Ref: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... apartment/

And we know if they are reporting 16 KIA / 9 MIA, you can at least double that number.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:32 pm

The best way to get revenge for actions like this;
http://www.forces.net/ukraine/death-tol ... g-rises-35

Is to, as suggested, do this place over;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obh5RDwUULc

And any others like it, as well as MBT's, really it's time for at least a limited number of ATACAMs to be sent, this one you cannot hang on the Germans.
In fairness, the UK is only now able to send AS-90's, Germany sent SPG's months ago, I suspect the limiting factor for the UK was assessing the domestic needs, pulling some from storage and generally getting enough ready to be offered.
As mentioned here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsSA9fWYD6s
Last edited by GDB on Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:35 pm

I think this is another example of why NATO is important. Think of where Ukraine would be today if it depended on a EU "consensus" without the support of the US, Canada and UK.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:39 pm

Regarding the Dnipro attack:

The Kremlin told reporters Monday its forces were not responsible for the attack and pointed to an unsubstantiated theory circulating on social media that Ukrainian air defense systems had caused the damage.

"The Russian armed forces do not strike residential buildings or social infrastructure. They strike military targets," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.

Ukraine leader Volodymyr Zelensky said late Sunday that search operations would go on as long as necessary and condemned Russians' "cowardly silence" over the attack.

The EU's most senior diplomat Josep Borrell late Sunday described the strike as "inhumane aggression" and vowed "there will be no impunity for these crimes."

Ref: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/01/ ... ack-a79957

Absolutely no one is buying their nonsensical statements about Ruzzia only striking military targets. Why do they waste the oxygen to say such things? Maybe their own people are so brainwashed that they need to hear such things to keep their brains locked in to the stream of nonsense? Maybe their people want to be able to say they didn't know this was happening after they lose the war? Yet the same military dropped barrel bombs on Syria.

Darth Putin's satirical posts suggest a more plausible approach:

Call on @Amnesty to condemn Ukraine for building residential apartments underneath our peace missiles.

Ref: https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/statu ... 0602327040
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:49 pm

johns624 wrote:
I think this is another example of why NATO is important. Think of where Ukraine would be today if it depended on a EU "consensus" without the support of the US, Canada and UK.

Or, it can be seen as a dangerous way to appear to be able to offer a valid response to aggressors, whilst not really being willing/able to do so.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:04 pm

CNN expanded Peskov's statement:

Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov claimed the Russian Armed Forces only strike “against military targets, whether they are obvious or disguised,” and not at residential buildings.

Sure, that apartment building was disguised as a military target. Whatever you say, pal.

Ref: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/14/europe/k ... e-intl-hnk

This is the same guy who hides $10m or more of real estate in his wife's name:

Ref: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... try-peskov

Not bad for a humble government employee.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:03 pm

Klaus wrote:
art wrote:
Ukraine is determined to do everything possible to win this war. Would that the west would show the same determination.

So how many ukrainian refugees has the UK accepted so far, given that that is one of the most urgent aspects of this crisis...?

Practically none, not for a lack of requests, even when relatives already live there? Ah.


That comment actually made me look into the statistics, as I've been doing a lot of driving recently across the UK, and I have noticed a lot of Ukrainian cars on the roads (including some LADAs - I've actually offered to buy the LADA from a Ukrainian family I know who were displaced here and were able to upgrade to something better).

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/qa-the-uk-and-the-ukraine-refugee-situation/

Some countries have undoubtedly done a lot of heavy lifting, but saying that the UK has admitted 'practically none' doesn't stand up to critique.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:38 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
Klaus wrote:
art wrote:
Ukraine is determined to do everything possible to win this war. Would that the west would show the same determination.

So how many ukrainian refugees has the UK accepted so far, given that that is one of the most urgent aspects of this crisis...?

Practically none, not for a lack of requests, even when relatives already live there? Ah.


That comment actually made me look into the statistics, as I've been doing a lot of driving recently across the UK, and I have noticed a lot of Ukrainian cars on the roads (including some LADAs - I've actually offered to buy the LADA from a Ukrainian family I know who were displaced here and were able to upgrade to something better).

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/qa-the-uk-and-the-ukraine-refugee-situation/

Some countries have undoubtedly done a lot of heavy lifting, but saying that the UK has admitted 'practically none' doesn't stand up to critique.


UK made it very difficult for refugees to come from Ukraine. Lots of documentation required. In contrast - according to my English/Irish partner - Ireland did not demand any documentation at all. No 'Family can come but not the baby with no docs', no need to travel hundreds of miles and stay in a hotel for days or weeks while the bureaucrats processed an application to stay in their country. Completely nonsensical demands imposed by the UK authorities made life even more difficult for Ukrainians wanting to go to the UK.

PS Just checked what my partner said. One day - yes, ONE DAY after Russia invaded Ukraine, Ireland scrapped visas for Ukrainians.

...as of February 25, 2022, Ireland has completely abolished visa requirements for all citizens of Ukraine.


https://visitukraine.today/blog/1267/te ... %20Ireland.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:05 pm

GDB wrote:
the UK is only now able to send AS-90's, Germany sent SPG's months ago, I suspect the limiting factor for the UK was assessing the domestic needs, pulling some from storage and generally getting enough ready to be offered.


Along with the Bradley's the US is also sending M109s. Although these are not as good as the stuff Europe is sending, in the end, I think most of the old Soviet mobile artilery will be replaced by M109s. The US seem to have a ton of them to give away.


bt
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:23 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:

That comment actually made me look into the statistics, as I've been doing a lot of driving recently across the UK, and I have noticed a lot of Ukrainian cars on the roads (including some LADAs - I've actually offered to buy the LADA from a Ukrainian family I know who were displaced here and were able to upgrade to something better).

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/qa-the-uk-and-the-ukraine-refugee-situation/

Some countries have undoubtedly done a lot of heavy lifting, but saying that the UK has admitted 'practically none' doesn't stand up to critique.

That was a very interesting graph. I was surprised that so many had gone to Russia. Maybe the "oppressed Russian minority" problem will sort itself out after this is over.
 
astuteman
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:27 pm

Klaus wrote:
art wrote:
Ukraine is determined to do everything possible to win this war. Would that the west would show the same determination.

So how many ukrainian refugees has the UK accepted so far, given that that is one of the most urgent aspects of this crisis...?

Practically none, not for a lack of requests, even when relatives already live there? Ah.

Maybe then better keep a clear view and a wider perspective on what is political PR and what is sincere (and it can even be a mix of both).

Putin's main strategy is to sow chaos and division in Europe. We should keep a clear view on reality and not do him the favour of falling for old cliches and prejudices which he will exploit to the max.


I get that you feel threatened in this conversation about "who's helping". I'm supportive of bouth yourself and Germany in this respect, but knee-jerking against other nations, especially inaccurately, isn't going to do much to maintain that support.....

Firstly, "practically none" equates to about 115,000 and growing, which incidentally is more than France, but they appear to get a pass in your eyes.
Secondly, the phrase was "everything possible to WIN this war. It's pretty incontrovertible that the UK has been pretty well on the front foot with military aid within its limited means, even before the was broke, and has been quite singular in the unity of its stance in that respect.

So I'd suggest you follow your own advice and keep a clear view and a wider perspective on what is political PR and what is sincere.
I'm certainly not going to throw stones at Germany - every country has its own political and logistical issues to overcome.
But I don't know why its a surprise that most refugees are found in the countries that are immediately adjacent to the war....

Notice that the USA doesn't even appear in the statistics linked by Plymspotter.
Does that mean that they're not helping to win the war?
By the way, Ireland doesn't appear on the list either..

Rgds
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:29 pm

art wrote:
PS Just checked what my partner said. One day - yes, ONE DAY after Russia invaded Ukraine, Ireland scrapped visas for Ukrainians.

...as of February 25, 2022, Ireland has completely abolished visa requirements for all citizens of Ukraine.


https://visitukraine.today/blog/1267/te ... %20Ireland.


And in the statistics linked by Plymspotter, just how many refugees has that resulted in Ireland taking eh?
So what's the point you're trying, and failing to make here?

Rgds
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:43 pm

astuteman wrote:
art wrote:
PS Just checked what my partner said. One day - yes, ONE DAY after Russia invaded Ukraine, Ireland scrapped visas for Ukrainians.

...as of February 25, 2022, Ireland has completely abolished visa requirements for all citizens of Ukraine.


https://visitukraine.today/blog/1267/te ... %20Ireland.


And in the statistics linked by Plymspotter, just how many refugees has that resulted in Ireland taking eh?
So what's the point you're trying, and failing to make here?

Rgds
I just checked...about 17,000. Sorry. I just checked the date of the article and it was April...my bad.
https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/272 ... ng%20needs.
Last edited by johns624 on Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:45 pm

astuteman wrote:
art wrote:
PS Just checked what my partner said. One day - yes, ONE DAY after Russia invaded Ukraine, Ireland scrapped visas for Ukrainians.

...as of February 25, 2022, Ireland has completely abolished visa requirements for all citizens of Ukraine.


https://visitukraine.today/blog/1267/te ... %20Ireland.


And in the statistics linked by Plymspotter, just how many refugees has that resulted in Ireland taking eh?
So what's the point you're trying, and failing to make here?

Rgds
Your link says 65,000. That sounds like a lot for such a small country.
Ireland has become a refuge for 65,000 Ukrainians and continues to accept refugees.
 
art
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:55 pm

astuteman wrote:
art wrote:
PS Just checked what my partner said. One day - yes, ONE DAY after Russia invaded Ukraine, Ireland scrapped visas for Ukrainians.

...as of February 25, 2022, Ireland has completely abolished visa requirements for all citizens of Ukraine.


https://visitukraine.today/blog/1267/te ... %20Ireland.


And in the statistics linked by Plymspotter, just how many refugees has that resulted in Ireland taking eh?
So what's the point you're trying, and failing to make here?

Rgds


Erm... It was pointed out that very few refugees had gone to the UK. There were all sorts of impediments placed in the way of Ukrainians coming to the UK as refugees. In contrast Ireland immediately opened its borders to them.

You can't see the point, the contrast between how the Irish and British governments reacted towards the victims of Russia's aggression? How many refugees were denied refuge in the UK, do you think, by the over-onerous terms they were required to meet to gain access to the UK? How many refugees were denied refuge in the Ireland for the same reason?

The answer to the first question is unknown. Thousands? Tens of thousands? The answer to the second question is zero.

As for how many refugees Ireland has taken, it is as many as care to go there. They are well looked after according to my Irish connections. Housed. Free to work. Why more have not chosen to go to Ireland, I do not know.

PS Just checked. Over 58,000 in November. Expected to reach 70,000 soon. By the way, population of Ireland is about 5 million. UK 13 times as much.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41010947.html
 
AirbusCheerlead
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:58 pm

The bickering about us, supposed, allies makes me rather sad...

Two links:
Refugee numbers from UNHCR:
https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine
Help to Ukraine tracked by IfW (source often sited in media and here in older posts):
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-agai ... t-tracker/

My reading of the data of those two links: all allies seem to do a lot!

I'm also convinced that there is a plan/roadmap by the main nato countries to arm (and form) the Ukrainian army and that plan/roadmap is mostly followed. I belive that our western media don't inform us about the build up of military equipment production taking place in the west.
I don't know if the medial and political cacophony is wanted to distract from what is actually happening or simply politics been played for national and international audiences...

Beat regards and force for the Ukrainian people,
Jonas
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:49 pm

johns624 wrote:
I'd think that supplying anything in less than battalion size (42-56 tanks) would be a waste.


Not a waste, but not enough to make a significant difference. A platoon or company can provide fire support to take out discrete targets, or conduct or support advance an offensive to the current defensive line, but generally not go further, because the lead element in an attack often takes losses that make it difficult to press forward after taking the initial objective. Part of the force also typically has to remain at the initial objective to conduct clearing of the breakthrough area and protect the flanks of the element pushing the breakthrough forward.

I believe a company of tanks (with infantry and artillery support, of course) would find it very challenging to achieve a breakthrough in any given location. A battalion or brigade is more likely going to be able to engage and overcome a current defensive line and have enough in reserves to then immediately carry out a meaningful advance while the rest perform clearing and protect the flanks.

art wrote:
Makeshift RPG warheads...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zK0jC8x3U

I wonder if there is innovation of this ilk on both sides.


Trading off range and accuracy for explosive yield on a weapon like the RPG strikes me as one of the less significant examples of innovation. I gather the soldiers in question serve in an irregular unit that may not have many resources, so they're forced to improvise. More interesting is the fact that there are Chechens fighting on Ukraine's side.

As far as other types of innovation: You have likely seen some of the variety of modifications done to civilian drones. Somewhere out there is even a video of a drone being crashed into another one to take it down. I've also seen pickups or light to medium commercial trucks modified for launching artillery rockets or to mount a variety of other weapons like Zu-23-2 anti-aircraft guns or SPG-9 recoiless guns. I remember one small manufacturer early in the war rigging up powered pan and tilt mounts to create a basic remote weapon station for putting light machine guns on pickups.

And of course, Ukraine likes to multiply the explosive effect of the modest 200 pound warhead on their GMLRS rockets by combining them with Russian ammunition depots. Very impressive innovation. ;)

alberchico wrote:
https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1614711789891235841?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1614711789891235841%7Ctwgr%5E6e32d3ede1678429bc646fbe21e269b632dc9b87%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2F10ctqan%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse

How realistic is this assessment, that Putin will try to recreate the same 3 front strategy of Feb but on a much larger scale ? I just don't see any offense from Belarus aimed to capture Kiev succeeding, because this time Ukraine will be better prepared. Also, because NATO will be closely observing any large movements of soldiers or weapons, the chances of the Russians having the element of surprise are almost zero.

Also, there seems to be persistent rumors coming from Ukraine about Putin launching another massive wave of mobilization to draft 500k additional men into the army for a spring offensive sometime this month. How likely is that ?


The key point you should take from that post is Russia is trying to rebuild its forces and learn the necessary lessons from last year's failures. They remain a major threat, and the slower and more reserved Ukraine's western supporters are in the material aid and training the provide, the bigger the risk that Russia will reverse their fortunes.

With that said, my opinion is Mr. Shusko is discussing a credible risk, but exaggerating it by stating to be the likely course of action, and by supposing that potential future mobilization waves translate almost immediately into 500,000 trained and equipped combat soldiers being ready for battle in the next couple of months. For a better take, I recommend reading ISW's daily update from yesterday. Instead of their usual brief on the battlefield situation around Ukraine, they focused more on the discussion of potential Russian courses of action in Ukraine in the medium term.

They consider a another offensive across the Belorussian border plausible, but not likely as they do not so far see signs of the long term preparations necessary to conduct a large, sustained operation in that theater. In contrast, the preparations for the initial invasion in Februrary, which were not sufficient to support sustained operations, were being monitored even in the summer of 2021, and by fall of that year, were being recognized as potentially precursors for a Russian invasion.

I will note that the ISW did not in late 2021 consider the full scale invasion that actually occurred likely, but they pointed out the preparations were being made that could either be for such an invasion initially, or as followup to a Donbass-region attack, or simply to deter NATO responses to a Donbass-region attack. Russia actually ended up pursuing the maximalist end of the courses of action the ISW considered. Even in hindsight of that maximalist reality, I consider this to have been a good analysis of the prospects at that time, even down to details like the challenges of advancing past the northern Ukraine marshes and through the Chernobyl contaminated zone. In light of ISW's continuing good coverage, I continue to give their analysis a high level of credibility.

Dec. 1, 2021 ISW Forecast - Putin's Likely Course of Action in Ukraine

Here is yesterday's update, a shorter, simpler, but still well detailed current analysis of Russia's potential courses of actions:

Jan.15, 2023 ISW Russian Campaign Assessment

It does appear Russia is preparing for an expanded mobilization. It is unclear whether and how large of an additional mobilization they will attempt, due to the risk of domestic backlash, and their limited ability to train, equip, and organize the mobilized personnel into effective units.

Also keep in mind that while Russia threw a lot of mobilized troops into the war over the last couple of months with abysmal preparation in order to stabilize the situation, they also kept quite a few in Russia for actual training. I don't know of a source for good figures, but offhand discussions seem to estimate about half. The talk of a potential spring offensive by Russia would coincide with those presumably 150,000 troops having completed training. Further waves of mobilization would be intended to sustain the war effort later into the year.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:27 am

https://allanmlees59.medium.com/russia- ... 5985a3cd00

An interesting dissenting opinion that says that Ukraine still has a long way to go before they declare victory. I do agree with the author's opinion that the nuclear sabre rattling from Russia has spooked many countries into not committing heavy weapons even though it was clear that Putin was not crazy enough to commit to a nuclear strike.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:54 am

alberchico wrote:
https://allanmlees59.medium.com/russia-is-not-losing-in-ukraine-ab5985a3cd00

An interesting dissenting opinion that says that Ukraine still has a long way to go before they declare victory. I do agree with the author's opinion that the nuclear sabre rattling from Russia has spooked many countries into not committing heavy weapons even though it was clear that Putin was not crazy enough to commit to a nuclear strike.

I don't know that it's the threat of nukes holding some European countries back, I believe it's a political choice; there are many in Europe who favor Russia and will vote against politicians that are perceived as anti Russian.

I do agree that the situation is not as rosy as some believe, and the Russian army can continue to sustain the current losses for a long long time. I'm not so sure about the Ukrainian side. If the Ukrainian army breaks, putting it together again may be impossible.

If any of these western politicians, including the Biden administration, are leery of getting in too deep because of the threat of nukes, I think they should give some thought to what would happen if the Ukrainian army begins to falter. Injecting NATO troops into that war would be the most provocative action we can engage in. Yet walking away would be impossible.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread⁸

Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:35 am

alberchico wrote:
https://allanmlees59.medium.com/russia-is-not-losing-in-ukraine-ab5985a3cd00

An interesting dissenting opinion that says that Ukraine still has a long way to go before they declare victory.


The author graduated from Oxford, so there is a chance that he is smarter than me. But looking at his career achievement, not sure I'f he knows more about the Ukraine war than some of the posters here.

In Peun I trust. :D

bt
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Jan 17, 2023 5:43 am

astuteman wrote:
Klaus wrote:
art wrote:
Ukraine is determined to do everything possible to win this war. Would that the west would show the same determination.

So how many ukrainian refugees has the UK accepted so far, given that that is one of the most urgent aspects of this crisis...?

Practically none, not for a lack of requests, even when relatives already live there? Ah.

Maybe then better keep a clear view and a wider perspective on what is political PR and what is sincere (and it can even be a mix of both).

Putin's main strategy is to sow chaos and division in Europe. We should keep a clear view on reality and not do him the favour of falling for old cliches and prejudices which he will exploit to the max.


I get that you feel threatened in this conversation about "who's helping". I'm supportive of bouth yourself and Germany in this respect, but knee-jerking against other nations, especially inaccurately, isn't going to do much to maintain that support.....

Firstly, "practically none" equates to about 115,000 and growing, which incidentally is more than France, but they appear to get a pass in your eyes.
Secondly, the phrase was "everything possible to WIN this war. It's pretty incontrovertible that the UK has been pretty well on the front foot with military aid within its limited means, even before the was broke, and has been quite singular in the unity of its stance in that respect.

So I'd suggest you follow your own advice and keep a clear view and a wider perspective on what is political PR and what is sincere.
I'm certainly not going to throw stones at Germany - every country has its own political and logistical issues to overcome.
But I don't know why its a surprise that most refugees are found in the countries that are immediately adjacent to the war....

Notice that the USA doesn't even appear in the statistics linked by Plymspotter.
Does that mean that they're not helping to win the war?
By the way, Ireland doesn't appear on the list either..

Rgds


Excellent rebuttal, thanks… I also find Klaus’s views and perspectives to be mostly on the spot. With only a couple of hiccups along the way. It’s been interesting reading from a European who’s country was on the front lines for the whole Cold War.
 
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speedygonzales
Posts: 733
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:01 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:25 am

Andrei Medvedev, a defector from Wagner, is in Norwegian custody after sneaking across the border between Russia and Norway. He says that he will apply for asylum and testify about war crimes he have witnessed.
In Norwegian:
https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/VP4L ... rbrytelser
 
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speedygonzales
Posts: 733
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:01 pm

Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Jan 17, 2023 7:40 am

speedygonzales wrote:
Andrei Medvedev, a defector from Wagner, is in Norwegian custody after sneaking across the border between Russia and Norway. He says that he will apply for asylum and testify about war crimes he have witnessed.
In Norwegian:
https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/VP4L ... rbrytelser

In English:
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/16/euro ... index.html

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