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petertenthije
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:48 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Guys,

Earlier we were commenting about that attack of 30 Russian on an outpost manned by 8 Ukrainian.

Even with mortar support, the Russian managed to get on top of the trench. Scarry close up combat.

Then more scary, Ukrainian armor, looks like one tank and once AFV, came to the rescue.

https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1640 ... A8d_w&s=19

bt
that third artillery (mortar?) hit, at 2:18, was really close. Might well have hit the trench.

There seems to be a circular earth wall to the front-left of the trench. You can already clearly see it from the first second. Was there a compound there?
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:58 am

An overview, though recent covers to 15th March;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKvl45YLbak

So as alluded to, possibly overtaken by events.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:20 am

After a slight delay, this week's Perun video is here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRboVa5zyUk

On the winter war, losses, the quality of the forces and their generation.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:04 pm

It seems that quite a few Russian civilians have had accidents since the invasion but I can't think of any military leaders. I would think that the poor shape of the military would cause some accidents. Is Putin afraid of the military?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:44 pm

art wrote:
I don't know... I don't understand the interest in seeing the enemy being killed. I see countless videos of Ukrainians being killed posted by non-Russians who loathe the culture of the west and countless videos of Russians being killed posted by non-Ukrainians. What is the purpose of making the deaths of soldiers available for all to see? This interest in seeing people's lives being ended or marred by injury eludes me. Where there is analysis of the tactics used by the troops or tanks. I can see some point to posting such videos but I don't see any point in watching someone die because a drone dropped a grenade next to him or a tank and the people in it being wiped out by artillery fire or an anti-tank missile. We all know that grenades can kill people. We all know that artillery fire and anti-tank missiles can destroy tanks.

I'm baffled by videos of these scenes being repeated again and again and again. Do people in general find these entertaining? From the light-hearted comments accompanying many of the links to these videos, it seems that many people enjoy seeing people being killed. I find that sad.


Perhaps it's time to reflect on the famous quote attributed to Robert E. Lee, "It is well that war is so terrible — lest we should grow too fond of it".

There seems to be this innate thing in humans to want to get things their own way they'll resort to physical violence. Watch toddlers playing, you'll see it soon enough. Others have to step in and teach them otherwise, either through persuasion or through display of superior strength.

After time, most humans learn after many episodes that you can't just get what you want by physical means, you have to learn to work with others to get things you want in exchange for things they want.

Yet it seems within many if not most people there still is this primal fascination with physical violence. As Lee allegedly said, it's good that the real thing is so terrible, lest we let that primal fascination take over.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:20 pm

Remember those Leopard 2s that Germany wasn't going to hand over back in January?

Well...

Leopard 2 tanks from Germany have been handed over to Ukraine. It is said that 18 Leopard 2 tanks were transferred to Ukraine - according to SPIEGEL. https://spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ ... 57a0a7b6f9

Ref: https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/sta ... 4753348609

Meanwhile, Putin scours museums and junkyards for T-55s...
 
hh65man
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:05 pm

Revelation wrote:
Remember those Leopard 2s that Germany wasn't going to hand over back in January?

Well...

Leopard 2 tanks from Germany have been handed over to Ukraine. It is said that 18 Leopard 2 tanks were transferred to Ukraine - according to SPIEGEL. https://spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/ ... 57a0a7b6f9

Ref: https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/sta ... 4753348609

Meanwhile, Putin scours museums and junkyards for T-55s...


Even a T-34 entrenched would make for a good defensive tool… naturally up to a certain point that is. I wouldn’t be surprised by what the Russians would dig up.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:15 pm

hh65man wrote:
Even a T-34 entrenched would make for a good defensive tool… naturally up to a certain point that is.

The odd thing is that T-34 requires more crew than would a T-14. Ok, if you bury it then you don't need a driver, but if you bury it, all is needed is one radio call for an Excalibur guided munition to turn it into scrap metal.

hh65man wrote:
I wouldn’t be surprised by what the Russians would dig up.

The one thing we know they can't dig up is a modern weapons system, whereas the Western donations to Ukraine continue to arrive.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:09 pm

Der Spiegel reports Germany will increase the Military Budget for Ukrainian aid substantially to 8,8 Billion EUR next year. The Money Intends to make the aid More substantial by providing repairs and replacements.

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschl ... f20aee1114
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:30 pm

New Western equipment was transferred to the Ukrainian Air Assault Forces - including UK Challenger 2 tanks, US Stryker armored personnel carriers, DE Marder infantry fighting vehicles, US Cougar MRAP vehicles and CA Roshel Senator armored cars.

Ref: https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/16 ... 6599563264

And:

“As promised, our tanks arrived on time in the hands of our Ukrainian friends. I am sure that they will be able to make a decisive contribution at the front.”

Boris Pistorius / Defense Minister of Germany

Ref: https://twitter.com/deaidua/status/1640404075656232971

Meanwhile, Putin scours museums and junkyards for T-55s...
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:49 pm

johns624 wrote:
It seems that quite a few Russian civilians have had accidents since the invasion but I can't think of any military leaders. I would think that the poor shape of the military would cause some accidents. Is Putin afraid of the military?


Yes most definitely he is. IMO both regarding coup attempts and attempts on his life.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:56 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It seems that quite a few Russian civilians have had accidents since the invasion but I can't think of any military leaders. I would think that the poor shape of the military would cause some accidents. Is Putin afraid of the military?


Yes most definitely he is. IMO both regarding coup attempts and attempts on his life.

So, I wonder what the aftermath of a military coup would be like. Just a different set of leeches skimming money off the top of every transaction, or, who knows, some chance of some sort of more equitable relationship between the government and the governed? I mean, is it even possible to unravel all the different schemes the grifters have put in place to siphon off the wealth of the nation?
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:09 pm

Revelation wrote:
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It seems that quite a few Russian civilians have had accidents since the invasion but I can't think of any military leaders. I would think that the poor shape of the military would cause some accidents. Is Putin afraid of the military?


Yes most definitely he is. IMO both regarding coup attempts and attempts on his life.

So, I wonder what the aftermath of a military coup would be like. Just a different set of leeches skimming money off the top of every transaction, or, who knows, some chance of some sort of more equitable relationship between the government and the governed? I mean, is it even possible to unravel all the different schemes the grifters have put in place to siphon off the wealth of the nation?


Who knows for sure, but personally I just assume more of the same or worse.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:34 pm

hh65man wrote:
Even a T-34 entrenched would make for a good defensive tool


Any tank entrenched would be useless.

Those at the point of attack would be quickly be incapacitated by shaped charges dropped by drones. Those away from the point of attack are just static bucket of rust.

We see how the Ukrainian uses their tank. Even as a gun platform, they move, fire, move . . Repeat. Only way to survive against ATGM and artilery.

bt
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:29 pm

You can always tell when the Russians are afraid of something or have no response for it. It's always a "provocation" or an "escalation". Whether it's HIMARs, latest generation Western tanks or the DU rounds that they fire.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:31 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:

Yes most definitely he is. IMO both regarding coup attempts and attempts on his life.

So, I wonder what the aftermath of a military coup would be like. Just a different set of leeches skimming money off the top of every transaction, or, who knows, some chance of some sort of more equitable relationship between the government and the governed? I mean, is it even possible to unravel all the different schemes the grifters have put in place to siphon off the wealth of the nation?


Who knows for sure, but personally I just assume more of the same or worse.
If you want to be pragmatic about it, more of the same might be a good thing. Russia will continually degrade and China will have an unreliable and increasingly impotent ally. Of course, that's bad for the Russian civilians, but right now I'm more concerned with the Ukrainian ones.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:08 pm

More Leopard ranks now in country.

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/03/28/ ... o-ukraine/

bt
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:46 pm

On the issue of being perhaps too reveling of Russian casualties, aside from their conduct, the wider issue was recently illuminated by that MoD report showing the huge discrepancies in recruitment from the regions.
At the current loss rate, these regions will be running out of young men, however keen they may have been earlier, if you want a lesson from history to where that can lead, consider the WW1 'Pals Battalions' raised, not by conscription which it predated in WW1 Britain, then what the effect was on the tight knit communities was when most of their young men went to the Western Front.

So, to do another round of mobilization, Russian is going to have to go where they have avoided, the big cities, in particular the two major ones, where last year many of the over quarter of a million young men left to go abroad to avoid the call up. They are already trying recruitment campaigns there.

Trouble is, there are issues beyond that, in the here and now, these are not Wagner convicts;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... retreating

Perhaps a sign that the Russian offensive is in trouble is the return of the nuclear posturing, which usually follow Russian reverses, or major Western aid donations;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalWOIIIlM8

But the underwater 'super weapon' mentioned above, should be treated with a great deal of suspicion.
Not least because of this sorry tale, (this channel, with the commentary being done in an 'individual' and certainly 'eccentric' way, should not detract from the sound analysis, which does sit with the humour which can be adult.
His one on the Moskva being another good one, which ended on a sombre note, a long one but covers a lot including historical context and the wider picture;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-opSlCGLGQ4
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:37 am

GDB wrote:
Not least because of this sorry tale, (this channel, with the commentary being done in an 'individual' and certainly 'eccentric' way, should not detract from the sound analysis, which does sit with the humour which can be adult.
His one on the Moskva being another good one, which ended on a sombre note, a long one but covers a lot including historical context and the wider picture;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-opSlCGLGQ4
That was quite entertaining!
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:50 am

GDB wrote:

Perhaps a sign that the Russian offensive is in trouble is the return of the nuclear posturing, which usually follow Russian reverses, or major Western aid donations;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalWOIIIlM8

I just looked up the interviewee (Gen. Rupert Jones) and realized that I've read of his father quite extensively. He was H Jones, who won a posthumous VC while leading a battalion of the Paras during the Falklands War.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:49 pm

johns624 wrote:
GDB wrote:
Not least because of this sorry tale, (this channel, with the commentary being done in an 'individual' and certainly 'eccentric' way, should not detract from the sound analysis, which does sit with the humour which can be adult.
His one on the Moskva being another good one, which ended on a sombre note, a long one but covers a lot including historical context and the wider picture;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-opSlCGLGQ4
That was quite entertaining!

I agree. I watched a few others and they too were both entertaining and at times thought provoking.

His critique of the T-34 makes me think a lot of how RU can't seem to get results from its allegedly massive tank stockpile in the current era. Just because you see a small number of highly maintained tanks on parade in Red Square, doesn't mean you have a tank army ready to go in battle. His comments on how many T-34s were lost to abandonment due to simple mechanical issues or lack of fuel reminds me of the current era.

Quantity doesn't solve all problems. More tanks requires more trained tankers and more fuel to run those tanks, more leaders to lead those tanks, etc. That's fine if the quality is such that more tanks means more effectiveness on the battlefield. If you waste all that training bandwidth, human resources, fuel, etc on ineffective tanks, you'd be better off directing those resources elsewhere.

I get it, there are issues with gigantism as well, and some of the later, more massive and less mobile tanks had different problems, but still, two wrongs don't make a right.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:56 pm

 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
His critique of the T-34 makes me think a lot of how RU can't seem to get results from its allegedly massive tank stockpile in the current era.

IMO the era of the tank has past. They are still useful in some situations but modern ATGMs and drones coupled with extremely accurate artillery has greatly diminished their value.
That's too bad for Russia, because their army is the most tank heavy army in existence. Or used to be anyway.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:41 pm

This is interesting. According to the ISW there are rumours of resignations of a couple of Russian commanders, due to failures in Ukraine:
https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/statu ... 36448?s=20
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:32 pm

Take this with some skepticism considering it's coming from the Russian.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-735695

GLSBD is said to have been used.

The Russian claimed to have shot some down.

We'll have to wait for a second source on this info.

If true, then I guess we are seeing the target softening stage for the Spring Offensive.

bt
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:12 pm

Interesting article about the "forever war" has an interesting analysis of the state of the RU military:

“Russia simply does not have the offensive capabilities for a major offensive,” said US military expert Rob Lee.

According to Lee, less than 10% of the Russian army in Ukraine is capable of offensive operations, with the majority of its troops now conscripts with limited training.

“Their forces can slowly achieve a few grinding attritional victories but do not have the capacity to punch through Ukrainian defensive lines in a way that would change the course of the war.”

Ref: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ion-stalls
 
tomcat
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:37 pm

The fallout of the drone incident over the Black Sea:
The US decision to fly its surveillance drones further south over the Black Sea after a Russian jet collided with a US drone earlier this month “definitely limits our ability to gather intelligence” related to the Ukraine war, a senior US military official tells CNN.


In the wake of the collision with the US MQ-9 Reaper drone on March 14, US officials have repeatedly said that the US would continue to fly in international airspace. However, the new routes place those flights more than 40 nautical miles from the Ukrainian coast, rather than the 12 nautical miles normally recognized as the limit of a nation’s airspace.


I also noticed a few days after the incident that the RQ-4B was not venturing over the Black Sea anymore and was patrolling over the eastern part of Romania. I haven't checked recently to see if it was still the case.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/28/politics/us-drone-routes-black-sea-intelligence
 
tomcat
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
Interesting article about the "forever war" has an interesting analysis of the state of the RU military:

“Russia simply does not have the offensive capabilities for a major offensive,” said US military expert Rob Lee.

According to Lee, less than 10% of the Russian army in Ukraine is capable of offensive operations, with the majority of its troops now conscripts with limited training.

“Their forces can slowly achieve a few grinding attritional victories but do not have the capacity to punch through Ukrainian defensive lines in a way that would change the course of the war.”

Ref: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ion-stalls


I wonder if their defensive capabilities are any better. We will know soon hopefully.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:30 pm

tomcat wrote:
The fallout of the drone incident over the Black Sea:
The US decision to fly its surveillance drones further south over the Black Sea after a Russian jet collided with a US drone earlier this month “definitely limits our ability to gather intelligence” related to the Ukraine war, a senior US military official tells CNN.


In the wake of the collision with the US MQ-9 Reaper drone on March 14, US officials have repeatedly said that the US would continue to fly in international airspace. However, the new routes place those flights more than 40 nautical miles from the Ukrainian coast, rather than the 12 nautical miles normally recognized as the limit of a nation’s airspace.


I also noticed a few days after the incident that the RQ-4B was not venturing over the Black Sea anymore and was patrolling over the eastern part of Romania. I haven't checked recently to see if it was still the case.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/28/politics/us-drone-routes-black-sea-intelligence


This is one of those prudential moves that just doesn't feel right, but it is the less confrontational course of action.

They destroyed US property worth $15+ million in international airspace. They present it as a matter of "forcing it to abandon its mission without resorting to weapons" and claim to be justified due to US non-compliance with a restricted flight zone declared by Russia related to their "special military operation." It's the sort of plausible deniability that only seems plausible in politics.

But the result is we're implicitly conceding to Russia exerting control over international airspace (to say nothing of the fact that we continue to hold the position that the nearest land is Ukrainian).

On the other hand, it is hard to escalate this situation moderately. We can keep sending unmanned aircraft to 12nm and do nothing but write a sternly worded letter each time we lose one. Or we can send a manned aircraft to do a freedom of navigation exercise and end up with the potential for another Hainan Island incident. Or we can put AIM-9X's on the MQ-9's and end up with the potential for a worse than Hainan Island incident.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:34 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
This is one of those prudential moves that just doesn't feel right, but it is the less confrontational course of action.

They destroyed US property worth $15+ million in international airspace. They present it as a matter of "forcing it to abandon its mission without resorting to weapons" and claim to be justified due to US non-compliance with a restricted flight zone declared by Russia related to their "special military operation." It's the sort of plausible deniability that only seems plausible in politics.

But the result is we're implicitly conceding to Russia exerting control over international airspace (to say nothing of the fact that we continue to hold the position that the nearest land is Ukrainian).

On the other hand, it is hard to escalate this situation moderately. We can keep sending unmanned aircraft to 12nm and do nothing but write a sternly worded letter each time we lose one. Or we can send a manned aircraft to do a freedom of navigation exercise and end up with the potential for another Hainan Island incident. Or we can put AIM-9X's on the MQ-9's and end up with the potential for a worse than Hainan Island incident.

Whatever intelligence gathering or intelligence dissemination is going on along the Russian / Ukrainian border areas is invisible to us.
I don't know that we're conceding anything.
 
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par13del
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:20 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
On the other hand, it is hard to escalate this situation moderately. We can keep sending unmanned aircraft to 12nm and do nothing but write a sternly worded letter each time we lose one. Or we can send a manned aircraft to do a freedom of navigation exercise and end up with the potential for another Hainan Island incident. Or we can put AIM-9X's on the MQ-9's and end up with the potential for a worse than Hainan Island incident.

....or they could send a P8 with fighter escort of F-15's for the Freedom of Navigation, or start sending a couple F-22's every now and then when they can be seen.
I get not wanting to escalate by having all armed patrols, but I think a Freedom of Navigation even if once every month or so is prudent. Beyond the price of the drone, Russia played bully ball, a response is required, they may have something in mind, only time will tell, how about the volume of data to Ukraine being doubled and letting Russia know.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:02 am

tomcat wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting article about the "forever war" has an interesting analysis of the state of the RU military:

“Russia simply does not have the offensive capabilities for a major offensive,” said US military expert Rob Lee.

According to Lee, less than 10% of the Russian army in Ukraine is capable of offensive operations, with the majority of its troops now conscripts with limited training.

“Their forces can slowly achieve a few grinding attritional victories but do not have the capacity to punch through Ukrainian defensive lines in a way that would change the course of the war.”

Ref: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ion-stalls


I wonder if their defensive capabilities are any better. We will know soon hopefully.


They've continued to lose experienced personnel, but they've mobilized more than they have lost - they have a larger number, but of lesser trained soldiers involved than they did at the time of the Kherson counteroffensive. Ukraine had difficulty making advances in Kherson, although they did ultimately prevail because they were able to very effectively interdict Russia's supply lines across the Dnipro River.

Rob Lee has also periodically pointed out that poorly trained soldiers tend to have more value on defense than offense (example: Link to the middle of a relevant thread of several posts). We've already seen this with Ukraine's defense of Bakhmut, reportedly primarily with reservists. Russia's failures do not mean they will be as ineffective in defense as they are in offense.

Russia's winter campaign could hardly have gone worse. There is little doubt it is culminating, and that Ukraine will soon have the opportunity to take the initiative, including with some (not as much as they should have at this time) new equipment and newly trained troops available.

But I still think is difficult to predict how the upcoming counteroffensive campaign will go, because it is a new phase in the conflict with challenges distinct from each of the previous phases. I don't think opportunities analogous to the Kharkiv counteroffensive currently exist along the Russian lines because with more troops and shorter lines, they are stretched as thinly. And the geographical challenge of the Dnipro River that hindered Russia's defense during the Kherson counteroffensive is also absent.

I do still have strong hope Ukraine has enough well-trained and equipped forces in reserve to both create and exploit a significant breakthrough somewhere along the front. I even dare to hope they are able to conduct smaller advances in multiple other locations simultaneously.

But we can't count those eggs before they're hatched.

As for the time frame, Ukraine is currently right in the middle of the normal spring period of "roadlessness" (bezdorizhzhia), and this normally continues into April and in some areas into May. Although it looks like precipitation remains significant into June, as the thaw completes, days lengthen, and plant growth gets into gear, the water cycle accelerates. Someone put together a very interesting thread on this here:

https://twitter.com/davidhelms570/statu ... 6419598336

I'm not going to rule out Ukraine defying expectations and figuring out ways to defeat General Mud, but my general expectation is we're going to see a relatively static period for the next month or so. As indicated in the linked thread, timing is likely to in part be affected by location - soil strength could be favorable in the south within a few weeks, but it might not be comparable in the northeast until June.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:05 am

Vintage wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
This is one of those prudential moves that just doesn't feel right, but it is the less confrontational course of action.

They destroyed US property worth $15+ million in international airspace. They present it as a matter of "forcing it to abandon its mission without resorting to weapons" and claim to be justified due to US non-compliance with a restricted flight zone declared by Russia related to their "special military operation." It's the sort of plausible deniability that only seems plausible in politics.

But the result is we're implicitly conceding to Russia exerting control over international airspace (to say nothing of the fact that we continue to hold the position that the nearest land is Ukrainian).

On the other hand, it is hard to escalate this situation moderately. We can keep sending unmanned aircraft to 12nm and do nothing but write a sternly worded letter each time we lose one. Or we can send a manned aircraft to do a freedom of navigation exercise and end up with the potential for another Hainan Island incident. Or we can put AIM-9X's on the MQ-9's and end up with the potential for a worse than Hainan Island incident.

Whatever intelligence gathering or intelligence dissemination is going on along the Russian / Ukrainian border areas is invisible to us.
I don't know that we're conceding anything.


Imagery resolution and electronic signal strength is worse at 40nm than at 12nm. I don't know how much was conceded in practical terms, but it was something.
 
Vintage
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:12 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Imagery resolution and electronic signal strength is worse at 40nm than at 12nm. I don't know how much was conceded in practical terms, but it was something.

Other assets may have been added; there are a lot of possible options.
I doubt that the US just pulled back and left it at that.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:26 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
I do still have strong hope Ukraine has enough well-trained and equipped forces in reserve to both create and exploit a significant breakthrough somewhere along the front. I even dare to hope they are able to conduct smaller advances in multiple other locations simultaneously.

Indeed. I hope that the slowly arriving new, western MBTs will be able to provide Ukraine with sufficient firepower and mobility to break through the defences and cut off supply lines, without being ambushed themselves.
Without air power, both sides' ability to hit anything (reliably) beyond artillery range is limited, and thus we end up in WW1 trenches.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:00 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Imagery resolution and electronic signal strength is worse at 40nm than at 12nm.


That delta difference does impact optical resolution. However ground search radar has better range and is really limited by the curvature of the earth, so elevation let's you peek farther in.

Pulling back is indeed a prudent move as now they know the red line. They will probably not approach the red line again until the full bore seige of Crimea.

WRT GLSDB.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-launch ... rs-1790887

Russia said they shot 1 down. So my question is what happened with the rest of the Salvo? :scratchchin:

As for the cost benefit equation. I wonder if the cost of the AA missile is more than cost of the GLSBD themselves.


bt
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:54 pm

So I was wondering why the Russian using their armor piece meal. Other than the lack of tanks and AFV, this synopsis explains pretty well.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/3 ... attlefield

Answer? Back to that thing called training.

bt
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:14 pm

bikerthai wrote:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/3/28/2160743/-Quick-Explainer-It-s-hard-to-coordinate-12-tanks-or-why-Western-Tanks-may-dominate-the-battlefield


That article seems to me to be at least 20 years out of date. With the arrival of the later generation ATGMs, massing tanks is a thing of the past. There will be no more big tank on tank battles. In the Gulf war for example, more Iraqi tanks were taken out by TOW missiles launched from Bradley's than by Abrams tanks.

Ukraine may be able to make a massed tank assault in the near future with the heavies, but that will only be because Russia doesn't have an effective stockpile of ATGMs.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:29 pm

The pendulum is swinging back the other direction for ATGM teams.

For set piece attack, the Ukrainian drone teams have been targeting Russian ATGM emplacement.

Combined arms is becoming more complex with armor to attack fortifications, ATGM to harass the armor, suicide drones to hunt ATGM teams.

It's crazy out there. I still wouldn't want to be an infantryman with an ATGM and a tank bearing down on me.


bt
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:24 pm

bikerthai wrote:
The pendulum is swinging back the other direction for ATGM teams.

For set piece attack, the Ukrainian drone teams have been targeting Russian ATGM emplacement.

Combined arms is becoming more complex with armor to attack fortifications, ATGM to harass the armor, suicide drones to hunt ATGM teams.

It's crazy out there. I still wouldn't want to be an infantryman with an ATGM and a tank bearing down on me.

I've seen more than one video where an ATGM is fired at infantrymen, and I regret doing so. A missile designed to burst through hardened steel then explode into fragments and/or molten plasma makes a real mess out of skin and bones.

It's interesting to me that effective anti-drone measures aren't out there already. I attended a drone race once. It was pretty boring for spectators. You soon lose sight of the drones, and the competitors just sit there like zombies with 3D vision helmets on, with nothing to be seen by spectators. I always thought it'd be interesting to at least make a 2D top-down view of the race so the spectators could have something to see, either by using radar, or by detecting the signals coming from the drones without decoding it, or by decoding the telemetry coming off the drones. Now it seems there's a military need.

Drones aren't useful without being able to control them remotely. Use that against them. Either detect their emissions so you can track them and shoot them down, or jam their receivers so they become useless. Apparently RU does deploy radio jammers, I've seen videos showing their destruction. They have an obvious downside: their jamming emissions are really easy to detect. Therefore you have to be pretty selective on when you transmit, and be prepared to move often.

Reminds me of the WWII "battle of the beams" ( ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams ). Same thing was happening at sea. Allies were using radar to find subs, U-boats were being equipped to detect the radar so they could dive to escape detection. It was hard for the u-boat side to keep up with all the different emissions the radars were making. By the end of the war knowing that a radar was tracking you was useless since that had become the default state. This meant the subs had to stay submerged for very long periods of time, often longer than their batteries would permit.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:54 pm

johns624 wrote:
GDB wrote:

Perhaps a sign that the Russian offensive is in trouble is the return of the nuclear posturing, which usually follow Russian reverses, or major Western aid donations;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SalWOIIIlM8

I just looked up the interviewee (Gen. Rupert Jones) and realized that I've read of his father quite extensively. He was H Jones, who won a posthumous VC while leading a battalion of the Paras during the Falklands War.


I didn't realize at first, though I have seen him interviewed before, in his uniform of the....well you can guess what Regiment!

There have been reports of a Ukrainian deep strike on Melitopol, some thought it might be an airbase;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMCmE5e74Y4

However it seems to have been a more general logistic hit;
https://www.euractiv.com/section/global ... ind-front/

From a few days ago, a Stormer/Martlet attack on a drone;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5xj0-lwmgQ

As the video shows, two of the 6 supplied have at the very least been damaged, just think, I have seen images and footage of this still modern and potent system, demilitarized and in private enthusiast hands, plus one at the Tank Museum.

This was a bad building for Russian troops to enter;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmON5x5ASPA

Ukrainian artillery and drone support;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6KnycP2AIU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPMEcs4gX84

With all the news and debate as the Western MBT's arrive, on their utility going forward, in October it will be 50 years since the last major the tank is dead idea became much discussed, due to in the Yom Kippur War, when Egyptian troops unpacked some AT-3 'Sagger' missiles, these wire guided ATGM's took the Israeli's, not for the first time in this war, by surprise.
Lessons learned, tactics adjusted, even with better and better ATGM's.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:01 pm

bikerthai wrote:
WRT GLSDB.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-launch ... rs-1790887

Russia said they shot 1 down. So my question is what happened with the rest of the Salvo? :scratchchin:

As for the cost benefit equation. I wonder if the cost of the AA missile is more than cost of the GLSBD themselves.


I don't recall seeing any other indication GLSDB are ready to deliver yet. It was reported a month ago a basic launcher, separate from the HIMARS and MLRS systems, was being developed:
https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... nge-rocket

So my initial presumption is the Russian claim is in error and there was no rest of the salvo.

It appears their claim is specifically that they intercepted 18x GMLRS and 1 GLSDB (Russian government affiliated source):
https://tass.com/politics/1595499?utm_s ... google.com

Intercepting some GMLRS would be plausible, although I find it unlikely they would be able to intercept that many in a day. That they report on a claimed GLSDB intercept as separate presents reasonable grounds to speculate if they might have intercepted a JDAM-ER, which the US has confirmed have been delivered to Ukraine, and which as another glide bomb should appear similar to their air defenses.

Of course, it's also possible they made up some or all of the intercepts. After all, they also have claimed to have destroyed 250% of all the HIMARS launchers delivered to Ukraine:
https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1639352368042250240

And yes, the SAM used against whatever they may have intercepted likely cost more than the incoming weapon. Whether they reach their target and do direct damage, or are intercepted and contribute to economic attrition, low cost precision-guided munitions will be a significant asset for Ukraine.
 
johns624
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:05 pm

GDB wrote:
With all the news and debate as the Western MBT's arrive, on their utility going forward, in October it will be 50 years since the last major the tank is dead idea became much discussed, due to in the Yom Kippur War, when Egyptian troops unpacked some AT-3 'Sagger' missiles, these wire guided ATGM's took the Israeli's, not for the first time in this war, by surprise.
Lessons learned, tactics adjusted, even with better and better ATGM's.
Yeah. Just in the last year, people have claimed that the tank, attack helicopter and aircraft carrier were dead. The said the same thing about infantry when the machine gun was developed. All three weapon systems will still be around when we're in the grave. Tactics and countermeasures just change.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:56 pm

bikerthai wrote:
The pendulum is swinging back the other direction for ATGM teams.

For set piece attack, the Ukrainian drone teams have been targeting Russian ATGM emplacement.

Combined arms is becoming more complex with armor to attack fortifications, ATGM to harass the armor, suicide drones to hunt ATGM teams.

It's crazy out there. I still wouldn't want to be an infantryman with an ATGM and a tank bearing down on me.

Now we have video of an ATGM taking out helicopters too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSz69dW6MBw
 
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Revelation
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:58 pm

RU commanders turning female soldiers into "field wives":

Warning: mature content...

https://nypost.com/2023/03/28/female-ru ... -officers/
 
hh65man
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:46 pm

[quote="Revelation"]RU commanders turning female soldiers into "field wives":

Warning: mature content...

https://nypost.com/2023/03/28/female-ru ... -officers/[/quote

That’s pretty shocking to read, it would seem the Russians haven’t evolved much sense the WW2. Fingers are crossed the Ukrainians can mount an offensive strong enough to cause a break out, make it the ocean. Would maybe be the final curtain for Putin.
 
cpd
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
RU commanders turning female soldiers into "field wives":

Warning: mature content...

https://nypost.com/2023/03/28/female-ru ... -officers/


If true then it’s despicable.

Hopefully putin is deposed soon.
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:32 pm

hh65man wrote:
That’s pretty shocking to read, it would seem the Russians haven’t evolved much sense the WW2. Fingers are crossed the Ukrainians can mount an offensive strong enough to cause a break out, make it the ocean. Would maybe be the final curtain for Putin.

Putin seems to no longer have a projection of how the war can be won. He seems to be preparing the nation to fight a "forever war":

It followed a pattern of recent speeches, said the political analyst Maxim Trudolyubov, in which the Russian leader has increasingly shifted towards discussing what observers have called a “forever war” with the west.

Putin has practically stopped talking about any concrete aims of the war. He proposes no vision of what a future victory might look like either. The war has no clearcut beginning nor a foreseeable end,” Trudolyubov said.

During Putin’s closely watched “state of the nation” speech last month, the Russian leader repeated some of the many grievances he holds against the west, stressing that Moscow was fighting for national survival and would ultimately win.

The thinly veiled message to the people, Trudolyubov said, was that the war in Ukraine would not be ending anytime soon and that Russians must learn to live with it.


Others have noted that the Russian leader, who, according to western intelligence, is personally making operational and tactical decisions in Ukraine, has stopped discussing the situation on the front in Ukraine in his public comments.

According to a study of the president’s speeches by the Russian news outlet Verstka, Putin last mentioned the fighting in Ukraine on 15 January, saying that the dynamics of his army were “positive”.

These omissions reflect the Kremlin’s uneasy acceptance that it is unable to change the course of the war on the battlefield, argued Vladimir Gelman, a Russian politics professor at the University of Helsinki.

It is easier not to talk about the war efforts when your army is making no progress,” Gelman added. “But scaling back is not an option for Putin; that would mean admitting defeat.”

Ref: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... ion-stalls

It doesn't seem to be a great plan to tell your people that you started a war that you don't know how to finish. He may be better off with a forever war so he can continue his reign, but the people of his country will not be.
 
GDB
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:26 pm

A major Russian cyberwar network exposed;
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... re-tactics

An in depth look at a historian who saw a lot of this coming;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... mp-ukraine

Likely drone strike in Crimea;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFlpSWOeW88

Ukrainian artillery on the front line;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HByDQPLlIlY

Within Russia, budget problems and elite disquiet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHysuEJ9n8&t=634s
 
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine - *Discussion* Thread

Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:13 am

GDB wrote:
Within Russia, budget problems and elite disquiet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHysuEJ9n8&t=634s

The u2b description reads:

More than a year into Russia's invasion of Ukraine, signs continue to mount that Moscow is struggling under the weight of ballooning military spending. Moscow has consistently put on a brave face when it came to the country's economic health. But it's now classified or unlisted a third of the economic data coming out of the country. According to Russian Finance Ministery data unlisted or classified spending has doubled since last year, indicating around a third of the budget is likely connected to the war effort. 31 Billion dollars in total, dwarfing all other publicly listed government expenses. And Moscow's black budget is ballooning at a time of falling commodity prices, which make up the lion's share of Russia's earnings. Western sanctions also continue to bite according to Russia's president.

Yet the opening part of the video had some eye-opening news, also described in this CNN report:

Putin admits sanctions could hurt Russia’s economy

President Vladimir Putin has conceded that Western sanctions designed to starve the Kremlin of funds for its invasion of Ukraine could deal a blow to Russia’s economy.

“The illegitimate restrictions imposed on the Russian economy may indeed have a negative impact on it in the medium term,” Putin said in televised remarks Wednesday reported by state news agency TASS.

It is a rare admission by the Russian leader, who has repeatedly insisted that Russia’s economy remains resilient and that sanctions have hurt Western countries by driving up inflation and energy prices.

It's not a rare admission, it's a complete flip-flop!

Note that the caption to the photo says "Hundreds of foreign companies have exited, leaving behind emptying shopping malls, while inflation, which stands at around 12 percent, has undermined the purchasing power of Russian wages". This is like 2x the current US inflation rate which is falling. This jives with various u2b videos I've watched recently. Russians say the stores still have lots of stuff on the shelves, but the prices have gone up tremendously already, and continue to go up.

Putin said Russia’s economy had been growing since July, thanks in part to stronger ties with “countries of the East and South,” likely referring to China and some African countries. He also stressed the importance of domestic demand to the economy, saying it was becoming the leading driver of growth.

Right, he needs the domestic sector to kick in, because he's giving away oil and gas to India and China at below-market rates. Good luck with that.

The Russian government’s revenue plunged 35% in January compared with a year ago, while expenditures jumped 59%, leading to a budget deficit of about 1,761 billion rubles ($23.3 billion).

True, and there's no way to close that deficit.

An outspoken Russian oligarch, Oleg Deripaska, said earlier this month that Russia could find itself with no money as soon as next year.

Maybe the cello player can kick in some funds?

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