marcelh wrote:

Revelation wrote:

marcelh wrote:

Another hilarious post, keep up the good work. I see a lot of wishful thinking In your recent posts, maybe you should stop watching “Drive to Survive”. It’s just a commercial disguised as a dramatized documentary with a lot of framing.

Feel free to live on in denial. Nothing to see here, la la la la la.

The only in denial is you, I’m sorry to say. It seems you have some naive view of F1 drivers being the perfect son-in-law and behaving accordingly when they are racing. And if they don’t (surprise: VER doesn’t), you are upset and start to whine about his behavior.

Most of them act with class but Max often does not off the track.

- Brazil 2018: Shoving Ocon after an incident at the same corner when Ocon was trying to unlap himself. If I was Estaban, I would have given him a solid right hook afterwards. Lewis actually had to calm him down.
- Boycotting DTS in 2021. Some might think that this is fine, but this is your biggest showcase of F1 to the general public and having your best talent involved is ideal. It would be nice to hear what he had to say.
- Walking off the podium after the Saudi 2021 GP when he was at fault for the incidents with Lewis. Had Abu Dhabi been reversed I don't think he would have had the grace Lewis had.
- The Sky boycott. In other sports leagues refusal to talk to the media gets you a fine. I think he was invited to Vegas but they scrapped him and brought in Albon. Lewis, George and Checo can have a good time.
- Refusing the team orders on Sunday.

Some that were 50-50.

- Not checking on Lewis after the Monza crash.
- Not telling his dad to keep his mouth shut when Redbull said Checo is in the championship.
- Not telling his family to be quiet. You don't see parents of other drivers running their mouths, only the Verstappen family.

Max can be as ruthless as he wants to be on the track but off the track he is little punk as well. Being a pro athlete means on occasion playing nice with the media and fans has a huge sway on whether you are liked or hated regardless of your talent level. Here are some off track incidents that show his level of entitlement and immaturity.

Fortunately for Max he doesn't care post F1. However if he wanted to be a broadcaster or pundit these actions would prevent that.

Revelation wrote:

La de da, nothing to see here, move on...

Wait, a statement from Red Bull on the matter?

As a team we made some mistakes in Brazil. We had not envisaged the situation that unfolded on the last lap and we had not agreed a strategy for such a scenario before the race. Regretfully, Max was only informed at the final corner of the request to give up position without all the necessary information being relayed. This put Max, who has always been an open and fair team player, in a compromising situation with little time to react which was not our intention. Following the race Max spoke openly and honestly, allowing for both drivers to resolve any outstanding issues or concerns. The Team accept Max's reasoning, the conversation was a personal matter which will remain private between the team and no further comment will be made.

The events that followed from a social media point of view are completely unacceptable. The abusive online behaviour towards Max, Checo, the Team and their respective families is shocking and saddening and unfortunately is something that we as a sport are having to address with depressing regularity. There is no place for it in racing or society as a whole and we need to do and be better. At the end of the day this is a sport, we are here to race. Death threats, hate mail, vitriol towards extended family members is deplorable. We value inclusion and want a safe space for everyone to work in and enjoy our sport. The abuse needs to stop.

Ref: https://www.redbullracing.com/int-en/te ... grand-prix

TL;DR: Stop picking on poor Max, he can act as bad as he wants and it's all our fault, we completely exonerate him, shame on you if you don't!

Horner and Red Bulls constant excuses for Max make me really want him gone. He is taking after his wife beating old-man. Russell, Norris or LeClerc in that car would be just as good with the number of seasons Max has.

Regarding Schumacher getting the boot - expected and do you really want a driver who can't compete with the best, unless they bring bags full of cash?

At the least he isn't embarrassingly slow in the class of some of the sports Mobile Chicane's over the years. I think that was one of James Hunt's favourite expressions.

morrisond wrote:

Horner and Red Bulls constant excuses for Max make me really want him gone. He is taking after his wife beating old-man. Russell, Norris or LeClerc in that car would be just as good with the number of seasons Max has.

Regarding Schumacher getting the boot - expected and do you really want a driver who can't compete with the best, unless they bring bags full of cash?

At the least he isn't embarrassingly slow in the class of some of the sports Mobile Chicane's over the years. I think that was one of James Hunt's favourite expressions.

Max really has no right to complain about the hate when his own mother accuses Sergio Perez of cheating on his wife.
https://jalopnik.com/max-verstappens-mo ... 1849791687

Jos Verstappen said Red Bull should have prioritized Max over Checo in Monaco.
https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/3401 ... -monaco-gp

The fact that Red Bull didn't toss Jos out of the garage after this is why this has gotten to where it is. The family really shouldn't have any opinion on the teams affairs, if he is there he is quiet and is like a celebrity in the garage. Lewis had to fire his dad as manager when he was about the same age. I didn't watch F1 when that happened but Max is his own man and he should be telling his family and his defacto father in law to keep their mouths shut especially when it concerns other teams and drivers.

As to Mick. He has taken a lot of time to get up to speed in the junior series. I know why Haas dropped him as they need consistent points and can't afford their drivers taken risks. I do hope he does get another shot in the future and perhaps outside of the Ferrari academy.

Revelation wrote:

morrisond wrote:

Horner and Red Bulls constant excuses for Max make me really want him gone.

The thing they don't explain is why Max gets to pick and choose the team orders he'll follow and the ones he'll ignore. They don't for the obvious reason, the rest of the team is too embarrassed to admit the most important part of their job is to kiss Max's ring.

The team has made him feel that he is the next Senna or Schumacher and that is why he feels he calls the shots. It would be rather easy for Redbull to buy Max out if he becomes a bigger cancer within the team.

StarAC17 wrote:

The team has made him feel that he is the next Senna or Schumacher and that is why he feels he calls the shots. It would be rather easy for Redbull to buy Max out if he becomes a bigger cancer within the team.

Very true words. I look forward to Russell and Hamilton hopefully dominating Red Bull next year and working as Teammates to obtain goals. I wouldn't blame Checo for some payback next year which might be enough to swing the championship to Mercedes.

I know in the past Hamilton has been very - it's all about me - but he really seems to have mellowed. I think he really does like just being part of the team. Of course he wants to win - but if it ends up being George ahead in the standings at the end of the season I can easily see Hamilton helping out. He really seems like the elder statesman nowadays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFImqBddhfs

Looks like the reason Max didn’t want to give Perez the position is due to Monaco. Looks like Perez crashed to keep Max from completing a faster Q3 lap and that resulted in a win for Perez.

If true, and the evidence looks to prove it, I can understand it.

mad99 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFImqBddhfs

Looks like the reason Max didn’t want to give Perez the position is due to Monaco. Looks like Perez crashed to keep Max from completing a faster Q3 lap and that resulted in a win for Perez.

If true, and the evidence looks to prove it, I can understand it.

This is highly speculative. If Checo admitted this then his new contract he signed that weekend would have been ripped up and he'd be fired. Why would Redbull cover up something that would have adversely affected their golden boy. Although Checo had an incentive to screw Max as he could have won in Spain the week before. The costs were too high for him IMO.

Also if we are allowed to believe this then I can believe that whatever Yuki did and Zandvoort by stopping, then pitting, then stopping again to draw a VSC or SC was ordered by Helmut Marko to ensure a Max win.

Danny Ric back at Redbull??
The last race is on Sunday but silly season is going to last. PlanetF1 isn't the best source but not a troll one either.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/ralf-schu ... do-chance/

This is almost as good as the Twitter antics.

Revelation wrote:

Well, if he isn't going to be king or queen, it looks like he's at least going to be a courtier, standing by in case one of the royal houses collapses.

So much going on...

I was hoping they would put Yuki in that seat. The amount of cursing on the RB radio would be epic.

StarAC17 wrote:

Danny Ric back at Redbull??

According to Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf” the return of Danny has been confirmed by Helmut Marko. He’ll be the third driver.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/31815723 ... j-red-bull

petertenthije wrote:

StarAC17 wrote:

Danny Ric back at Redbull??

According to Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf” the return of Danny has been confirmed by Helmut Marko. He’ll be the third driver.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/31815723 ... j-red-bull

It had been rumored for a couple of days but now seems official. I’d guess it’s good news for Mick Schumacher as he’s speculated to get the Mercedes reserve seat if Ricciardo doesn’t take it. Of course who knows where the chips will fall if Logan Sargent doesn’t secure his super license.

Revelation wrote:

petertenthije wrote:

StarAC17 wrote:

Danny Ric back at Redbull??

According to Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf” the return of Danny has been confirmed by Helmut Marko. He’ll be the third driver.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/31815723 ... j-red-bull

Great timing! I'm sure Checo feels so much love coming from his team right now!

If PER thinks he’s getting love from RBR he’s very nave…. He’s second driver of RBR, gets paid very well for it and should behave like that.

marcelh wrote:

Revelation wrote:

petertenthije wrote:

According to Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf” the return of Danny has been confirmed by Helmut Marko. He’ll be the third driver.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/31815723 ... j-red-bull

Great timing! I'm sure Checo feels so much love coming from his team right now!

If PER thinks he’s getting love from RBR he’s very nave…. He’s second driver of RBR, gets paid very well for it and should behave like that.

He should actually take out Max at an opportune moment sometime next year, in a Hamilton-Rosberg like move. That would be fun as a spectator, fun in the press aftermath and would teach Max a valuable lesson that the time will come where the car isn’t so superior he doesn’t need a team mate.

Apart from that, why wouldn’t a second driver be not entitled to love? Not a Merc fan at all here, but they managed the HAM-BOT relationship with as much love as possible in a professional sports environment. To the benefit of everybody.

Nicoeddf wrote:

marcelh wrote:

Revelation wrote:

Great timing! I'm sure Checo feels so much love coming from his team right now!

If PER thinks he’s getting love from RBR he’s very nave…. He’s second driver of RBR, gets paid very well for it and should behave like that.

He should actually take out Max at an opportune moment sometime next year, in a Hamilton-Rosberg like move. That would be fun as a spectator, fun in the press aftermath and would teach Max a valuable lesson that the time will come where the car isn’t so superior he doesn’t need a team mate.

We all have our dreams, haven’t we?

Apart from that, why wouldn’t a second driver be not entitled to love? Not a Merc fan at all here, but they managed the HAM-BOT relationship with as much love as possible in a professional sports environment. To the benefit of everybody.

BOT wasn’t that stupid to “peeep” HAM, like PER seems to have done with VER. People over here are disliking VER that much, they not only ignore some very persistent stories about that, but the hatred devaluated it into some “VER-bashing fest”. I’m a F1
enthusiast for decades (even before VER sr. went to Benneton), I genuinely don’t understand the bashing.
It seems the F1 is attracting another kind of “fans” nowadays. Well, this thread can be locked after tomorrow’s race and I’m looking forward to see the 2023 season.

marcelh wrote:

Nicoeddf wrote:

marcelh wrote:

If PER thinks he’s getting love from RBR he’s very nave…. He’s second driver of RBR, gets paid very well for it and should behave like that.

He should actually take out Max at an opportune moment sometime next year, in a Hamilton-Rosberg like move. That would be fun as a spectator, fun in the press aftermath and would teach Max a valuable lesson that the time will come where the car isn’t so superior he doesn’t need a team mate.

We all have our dreams, haven’t we?

Apart from that, why wouldn’t a second driver be not entitled to love? Not a Merc fan at all here, but they managed the HAM-BOT relationship with as much love as possible in a professional sports environment. To the benefit of everybody.

BOT wasn’t that stupid to “peeep” HAM, like PER seems to have done with VER. People over here are disliking VER that much, they not only ignore some very persistent stories about that, but the hatred devaluated it into some “VER-bashing fest”. I’m a F1
enthusiast for decades (even before VER sr. went to Benneton), I genuinely don’t understand the bashing.
It seems the F1 is attracting another kind of “fans” nowadays. Well, this thread can be locked after tomorrow’s race and I’m looking forward to see the 2023 season.

Dreams? About F1? No. My life ain’t that shallow. I dream about my children.

Everytime somebody isn’t full in love with Max you are butthurt to the highest extent. Your „standard of fans“ you proclaim hasn’t changed. People then and nowadays following F1 can differentiate between the skill of driving and the likeability of a personality.
Max driving is among the absolute best I have seen since I follow F1 decades ago. Max personality and sense of entitlement is…difficult.
But of course you are free to worship characters most of us would deem below average on the typical likeability scale.
Nothing to do with bashing. That’s just your butthurt pain.

StarAC17 wrote:

Most of them act with class but Max often does not off the track.

- Brazil 2018: Shoving Ocon after an incident at the same corner when Ocon was trying to unlap himself. If I was Estaban, I would have given him a solid right hook afterwards. Lewis actually had to calm him down.

Max has every right to be aggrieved. He was leading the race and Ocon took him out. It is reminiscent of Michael Schumacher storming to the McLaren pitlane at the 1998 Belgian Grand Prix to have it out with David Coulthard after he ran into the back of Coulthard while trying to lap the Scotsman. Or this incident involving Nelson Piquet at the 1982 German Grand Prix. Nobody said anything about either Schumacher or Piquet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCPAKVm7-po

StarAC17 wrote:

- Walking off the podium after the Saudi 2021 GP when he was at fault for the incidents with Lewis. Had Abu Dhabi been reversed I don't think he would have had the grace Lewis had.

The podium celebrations are over, so I don't see why he should remain. Not the first time a driver wasn't satisfied with the result and sulked at the podium celebrations.

StarAC17 wrote:

- The Sky boycott. In other sports leagues refusal to talk to the media gets you a fine. I think he was invited to Vegas but they scrapped him and brought in Albon. Lewis, George and Checo can have a good time.

Ayrton Senna got pissed off with Jackie Stewart for daring to ask why he crashed more often than his compatriots during an interview. Senna banned Stewart from interviews for a while, before he mellowed out. No difference here.

If I were in Max's shoes, I'd do the same. For Sky to rehash Abu Dhabi and claimed that Lewis was robbed of the championship is clearly unprofessional since it demonstrates clear bias.

StarAC17 wrote:

Some that were 50-50.

- Not checking on Lewis after the Monza crash.

This is nonsense. Look at the picture below, is he not checking up on Lewis as he walked back to the pits?



Lewis had his foot on the throttle trying to extricate his car out of the gravel trap. Of course it would have been daft for Max to approach the Mercedes, especially since his own car could have toppled over should Lewis made it out. But that doesn't mean he didn't check on Lewis.

How come George Russell wasn't criticized for his actions at Imola in 2021 when he went after Bottas and smacked the Finn's head after a horrendous crash that he caused?

StarAC17 wrote:

- Not telling his dad to keep his mouth shut when Redbull said Checo is in the championship.
- Not telling his family to be quiet. You don't see parents of other drivers running their mouths, only the Verstappen family.

He's not responsible for the actions of his family, nor is he's not responsible for the actions of his girlfriend's father or family.

morrisond wrote:

Horner and Red Bulls constant excuses for Max make me really want him gone. He is taking after his wife beating old-man. Russell, Norris or LeClerc in that car would be just as good with the number of seasons Max has.

Leclerc already has a car as great as Red Bull's, and yet despite getting the most poles this season his poles to win conversion rate is poor at only 33%. Sainz was able to pull out a win at Silverstone inspite of the team bungling up strategies, so why isn't Leclerc doing the same?

Can't really argue then that Leclerc would be just as good in the Red Bull with the number of seasons Max has now would he?

Nicoeddf wrote:

Everytime somebody isn’t full in love with Max you are butthurt to the highest extent. Your „standard of fans“ you proclaim hasn’t changed. People then and nowadays following F1 can differentiate between the skill of driving and the likeability of a personality.
Max driving is among the absolute best I have seen since I follow F1 decades ago. Max personality and sense of entitlement is…difficult.

Oh but the standards of fans have changed. The influx of Drive to Survive fans has made the sport somewhat toxic.

As for Max's personality and sense of entitlement, I see it as being no different than Schumacher, Hamilton & Senna. All three drivers have a sense of entitlement. And all three are venerated for it.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Leclerc already has a car as great as Red Bull's, and yet despite getting the most poles this season his poles to win conversion rate is poor at only 33%. Sainz was able to pull out a win at Silverstone inspite of the team bungling up strategies, so why isn't Leclerc doing the same?

That's simply not true.
The Ferraris do not and never really had the racing pace that RBs have. They manage to make them quick in qualifying trim but they could never keep up over the longer distance. Part of the problem is that they use their tires much quicker.
The few Ferrari wins we've seen this season have mostly been because something happened to the RBs, not really on a level field showdown.
LEC has proven that he is one of the fastest drivers out there. A lot can be said about his need to be more assertive and take charge of his own strategy amid his team's failures, but then VER never had that issue since RB is clearly dominant both in performance and strategy.

There is no doubt that he is acting like an annoying and petulant brat. All F1 drivers are arrogant, aggressive and full of themselves to a degree - it comes with the territory - but I've seen World Champions with a lot more grace and dignity than him.

[quote="TheFlyingDisk"][/quote]

Your statement regarding standard of fans awfully sounds like „everything used to be better“.

And yes, every F1 driver has a certain sense of entitlement. They wouldn’t be where they are if they hadn’t. Max is on a different level though, in my absolutely personal opinion. I am no fan of HAM at all, but if you can’t see the worlds of difference comparing attitudes of HAM and VER…

Funny Max stated after the race he wouldn’t have considered it fair racing if he held LEC up. LMAO.

Nicoeddf wrote:

Max is on a different level though, in my absolutely personal opinion. I am no fan of HAM at all, but if you can’t see the worlds of difference comparing attitudes of HAM and VER…

The 2022 HAM isn’t the 2016 HAM, who is much more comparable (age, experience) with the 2022 VER.
Already posted upthread, but you might have missed it. Final race of 2016, HAM leading but slowing down to put pressure on his teammate ROS by VET and VER. Would ROS have finished 3rd, HAM would be world champion instead of ROS.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfUm6kKsJw

If you can’t see the similarities between HAM and VER………

marcelh wrote:

Nicoeddf wrote:

Max is on a different level though, in my absolutely personal opinion. I am no fan of HAM at all, but if you can’t see the worlds of difference comparing attitudes of HAM and VER…

The 2022 HAM isn’t the 2016 HAM, who is much more comparable (age, experience) with the 2022 VER.
Already posted upthread, but you might have missed it. Final race of 2016, HAM leading but slowing down to put pressure on his teammate ROS by VET and VER. Would ROS have finished 3rd, HAM would be world champion instead of ROS.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfUm6kKsJw

If you can’t see the similarities between HAM and VER………

So you want me to anticipate and value what personality traits Max might develop in the future? No thanks.

But you are free to hope of course.

Revelation wrote:

Haas scolds MSC for doing some donuts, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KepkzKH3xLM

What were they going to do if he didn’t stop? Fire him?

StarAC17 wrote:

Mick is out has Haas and Hulkenberg is in. Not sure I agree with this because there is more potential with Mick but Haas needs the points and Haas is cash strapped. Mick crashed the car quite a bit and had the highest crash tab on the grid.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/schumach ... f1-return/

Seems like a step backwards for me. Hulkenberg is slightly above average at best and that was before he had been [mostly] out of the sport for three years. Lovely bloke though and I'm sad that his F1 career didn't amount to more. I'm not defending Mick's performances, but he wasn't terrible and if you're going to replace him then surely you should probably do so with someone better.

The relationship between Mick and the team seems to have completely broken down. He did a few donuts on his in lap and the end of the race which his engineer desperately tried to stop him. The response from Mick was a very sarcastic "I love you too".

Revelation wrote:

That may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's hard to run an organization when (allegedly) two of its most important employees aren't communicating freely, especially if it is due to resentment. Yet I have a hard time believing this report. It seems if the two were not communicating we'd see more signs of it.

I agree that there's probably a lot more to this than meets the eye. What I can say with some certainly is that Leclerc's manager, Nicholas Todt is extremely political (like Alonso/Briatore) and would have no hesitation doing all within his power to undermine Binotto aswell as everyone else in management who acts loyally to Binotto.

Revelation wrote:

A different report I ran across that I found interesting: Alpine sacked their head of legal affairs, for some pretty obvious reasons!

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/158498/f ... -case.html

Supposedly the poor lady was stupidly over worked and under resourced, with the company refusing to outsource any of the legal work to lighten her load.

StarAC17 wrote:

- Brazil 2018: Shoving Ocon after an incident at the same corner when Ocon was trying to unlap himself. If I was Estaban, I would have given him a solid right hook afterwards. Lewis actually had to calm him down.

You're right. Ocon just has too much class for that though. Even this year when he's had untold amounts of abuse thrown at him (much of it directed at him from his teammate) he never reacts to it, always stays classy and refuses to sink to their level.

StarAC17 wrote:

- The Sky boycott. In other sports leagues refusal to talk to the media gets you a fine.

The Sky boycott was legitimate and it's a shame it didn't last longer. The network has been doing it's absolute best to amp up fan animosity towards Max/RB and sensationalism. Their actions in Zandvoort in insinuating a conspiracy by the Red Bull pitwall to use Tsunoda to manipulate the race in Max's favor with a safety car were disgusting and resulted in a huge amount of abuse directed towards Red Bull's head strategist. Their Christmas Jingle with a graphic of Max's Silverstone crash was also very tasteless.

None of this is acceptable behavior for the network that is the World Feed. People can (rightly) point to the many issues of Ziggo, but they only broadcast in a small nation and most of the issues are resolved now that ViaSat is now the Dutch broadcaster. Good on Max for boycotting Sky if they're not going to give him a fair shout. It's not like he wasn't doing media duties at all. Plenty of interviews with other media and Sky used F1TV interviews for their coverage.

StarAC17 wrote:

Max really has no right to complain about the hate when his own mother accuses Sergio Perez of cheating on his wife.
https://jalopnik.com/max-verstappens-mo ... 1849791687

She's not wrong though....it was fairly well covered in the Mexican media at the time and Perez basically admitted it. Only ten days or so after Sergio's third kid was born too.

StarAC17 wrote:

Jos Verstappen said Red Bull should have prioritized Max over Checo in Monaco.
https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/3401 ... -monaco-gp

The fact that Red Bull didn't toss Jos out of the garage after this is why this has gotten to where it is. The family really shouldn't have any opinion on the teams affairs, if he is there he is quiet and is like a celebrity in the garage.

F1 as a whole should have blacklisted Jos years ago. Red Bull needs to do the same. He has various domestic violence convictions and shouldn't be in any way associated with the sport, let alone be interviewed, shown in the FOM Feed or be allowed to have any influence whatsoever. When Max was a kid, Jos left him at a random gas station in Italy because he didn't do well in a competition some weekend.

More to the point though it's terrible practice to let drivers family or manager to have influence within the team.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Max has every right to be aggrieved.

Max had more to lose, Max was the one who slammed shut the door causing the crash. You don't see Lewis making mistakes like that.

zkojq wrote:

StarAC17 wrote:

Mick is out has Haas and Hulkenberg is in. Not sure I agree with this because there is more potential with Mick but Haas needs the points and Haas is cash strapped. Mick crashed the car quite a bit and had the highest crash tab on the grid.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/schumach ... f1-return/

Seems like a step backwards for me. Hulkenberg is slightly above average at best and that was before he had been [mostly] out of the sport for three years. Lovely bloke though and I'm sad that his F1 career didn't amount to more. I'm not defending Mick's performances, but he wasn't terrible and if you're going to replace him then surely you should probably do so with someone better.

The relationship between Mick and the team seems to have completely broken down. He did a few donuts on his in lap and the end of the race which his engineer desperately tried to stop him. The response from Mick was a very sarcastic "I love you too".

Haas need a consistent driver and point scorer. They now have the car to scrap for mid-grid positions and the bottom of the points, but they need drivers who can go and get those opportunities. Hulkenberg is not an exciting prospect but he is a known value. He has a solid track record as a point scorer, plenty of experience racing in the mid-field and knows how to manage a race and bring the car home. I can see why he would be a good pick for Haas.

They need to elevate themselves from the bottom of the ladder and establish themselves as a solid midfielders. They are not really in a position to nurse new drivers into an F1 career, talent or not...

Nicoeddf wrote:

Your statement regarding standard of fans awfully sounds like „everything used to be better“.

Indeed it is better in a sense that fans don't pit drivers against drivers and go at each others throats back then. I mean, you hardly hear about Schumacher being threatened for running Hill off the track back in 1994. Compare that to the death threats Nicky Latifi got for crashing at Abu Dhabi last year.

Nicoeddf wrote:

And yes, every F1 driver has a certain sense of entitlement. They wouldn’t be where they are if they hadn’t. Max is on a different level though, in my absolutely personal opinion. I am no fan of HAM at all, but if you can’t see the worlds of difference comparing attitudes of HAM and VER…

Which Hamilton are you comparing with Verstappen?

I mean, if you take for example Vettel during his championship winning years, you'd say he's an arrogant arse. But the Vettel that retired yesterday was a whole different person. Same goes with Hamilton - he was at his worst in 2016, but subequently he mellowed over time.

So no point comparing current Hamilton with Verstappen, of course you're going to see a world of difference.

zkojq wrote:

:checkmark: Seems like a step backwards for me. Hulkenberg is slightly above average at best and that was before he had been [mostly] out of the sport for three years. Lovely bloke though and I'm sad that his F1 career didn't amount to more. I'm not defending Mick's performances, but he wasn't terrible and if you're going to replace him then surely you should probably do so with someone better.

Didn't Guenther wanted Danny Ricciardo and had even called him to offer the seat? There's not much choice in terms of drivers to be honest. Romain Grosjean is happy in IndyCars.

As for the the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, I don't know why but I feel incredibly sad seeing Seb Vettel retiring. In the race it was the Seb of 2010-2013 that's behind the wheel, and honestly he still got it.

marcelh wrote:

Nicoeddf wrote:

Max is on a different level though, in my absolutely personal opinion. I am no fan of HAM at all, but if you can’t see the worlds of difference comparing attitudes of HAM and VER…

The 2022 HAM isn’t the 2016 HAM, who is much more comparable (age, experience) with the 2022 VER.
Already posted upthread, but you might have missed it. Final race of 2016, HAM leading but slowing down to put pressure on his teammate ROS by VET and VER. Would ROS have finished 3rd, HAM would be world champion instead of ROS.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfUm6kKsJw

If you can’t see the similarities between HAM and VER………

Worst, literally worst example you could have chosen. Very laughable and pretty telling, that you do not understand F1 and teamwork.

In 2016, in the final race, the constructors WC was decided, Mercedes won, even if HAM and ROS crashed into each other. It was also decided, that either HAM or ROS will be 1st and 2nd. No other driver could have gotten to 1st and 2nd place even if HAM and ROS crashed.
The race was literally a free for all, they were allowed to race EACH OTHER to decide the championship.

Now lets look at VER, who only won his first title because of Perez, who didn't even had the decency to give PER a second place in the championship to repay for his service. Yeah... he will never become a great, because he is no great sportsman. A very good driver, but no great. And IMHO it will take too much to make up for stuff like this with his personality traits.

FluidFlow wrote:

Now lets look at VER, who only won his first title because of Perez, who didn't even had the decency to give PER a second place in the championship to repay for his service. Yeah... he will never become a great, because he is no great sportsman. A very good driver, but no great. And IMHO it will take too much to make up for stuff like this with his personality traits.

Absolute bullcrap.

No doubt Checo played his part in the 2021 world championship, but to claim that Max only won because of him is clearly rewriting history.

Max had a superb season. Was on a different level to everyone else. Enjoyed every minute of it. Winning 15 races in a season with 2 technical DNFs is an amazing achievement. For sure he is going to be one of the legends of the sport.

F1 won't return to China in 2023, as hasn't since 2020 due to continuing severe anti-Covid policies in there that would limit drivers, crews from attending or not face being quarantined if any hint of infection. https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-s ... f1661cb148

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

He's not responsible for the actions of his family, nor is he's not responsible for the actions of his girlfriend's father or family.

Would you be saying that if Anthony Hamilton ran his mouth at Toto Wolff for not prioritizing Lewis in say 2016. Or if Antonio Pérez Garibay made comments about Red Bull screwing over his son in Spain this year. How about if Anthony Hamilton's brother (or another family memeber) called Max a cracker or some other white insult. I can ensure that many who want to brush this aside would want more than a "I can't control my family from Lewis"

zkojq wrote:

You're right. Ocon just has too much class for that though. Even this year when he's had untold amounts of abuse thrown at him (much of it directed at him from his teammate) he never reacts to it, always stays classy and refuses to sink to their level.

Ocon doesn't come from money like most of the grid, I think he knows he is on the thinnest ice.
He races hard, is very classy and probably the most underrated driver on the grid. I really was frustrated with Alonso's entitlement that he felt that Ocon wasn't allowed to race him. I know there is more to that and don't follow that much Alpine related affairs but it seems that those who race against Ocon don't really respect him.

When Lewis retires I believe he will get his Mercedes seat, being in the Merc program.

Max has every right to be aggrieved. He was leading the race and Ocon took him out. It is reminiscent of Michael Schumacher storming to the McLaren pitlane at the 1998 Belgian Grand Prix to have it out with David Coulthard after he ran into the back of Coulthard while trying to lap the Scotsman. Or this incident involving Nelson Piquet at the 1982 German Grand Prix. Nobody said anything about either Schumacher or Piquet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCPAKVm7-po

Max can be rightfully pissed but what you can't do is react with physical contact on another driver, Schumacher was wrong and so was Piquet. This isn't UFC and drivers should not be physically fighting each other over racing incidents on the track.

ltbewr wrote:

F1 won't return to China in 2023, as hasn't since 2020 due to continuing severe anti-Covid policies in there that would limit drivers, crews from attending or not face being quarantined if any hint of infection. https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-s ... f1661cb148

Also news, the sun rises in the East and Elon Musk overrates his own intelligence.

I know why they put China on the calendar but when I saw it, I'm like nope, not happening. If it doesn't and F1 insists on a 24 race schedule can we please have Portimao back.

StarAC17 wrote:

Would you be saying that if Anthony Hamilton ran his mouth at Toto Wolff for not prioritizing Lewis in say 2016. Or if Antonio Pérez Garibay made comments about Red Bull screwing over his son in Spain this year. How about if Anthony Hamilton's brother (or another family memeber) called Max a cracker or some other white insult. I can ensure that many who want to brush this aside would want more than a "I can't control my family from Lewis"

I most certainly would. They're adults, they know what they're doing.

StarAC17 wrote:

Max can be rightfully pissed but what you can't do is react with physical contact on another driver, Schumacher was wrong and so was Piquet. This isn't UFC and drivers should not be physically fighting each other over racing incidents on the track.

But that's what makes F1 fun, drivers who are passionate, not robots. PC drivers are such a bore.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

But that's what makes F1 fun, drivers who are passionate, not robots. PC drivers are such a bore.

F1 drivers can be passionate without resulting to picking a fight if they feel hard done by. That is what separates the men from the boys.

I am a big fan of the NFL and to a lesser extent the NHL which are both contact sports. If you hit an opponent outside of the rules and outside of live play for whatever the reason you are getting tossed out of the game and probably fined or suspended.

Despite showing unity and confidence on the surface, it seems all was not well within the Ferrari team and that their disheveled seasons has taken a toll on Binotto, who will apparently quit after his Boss John Elkann lost confidence in him:

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sport ... 022-11-25/

Hard to tell who would replace him but Alfa's boss Frederic Vasseur has been rumored to take over.

From 2008 to 2022 (14 years), Ferrari had 4 team principals from Stefano Domenicalli, to the forgettable guy whose name I can't even remember, to Maurizio Arrivabene, and now Mattia Binotto. They only won one constructor's championship, and no driver's title

From 1994 to 2007 (13 years), they had one team principal, Jean Todt. They won 7 constructor's title and 6 driver's titles.

Maybe it's not the team principal that needs changing, really.

The China GP to no one's surprise has been cancelled. F1 and the FIA aren't going to put up with a bunch of covid rules when they are there for less than a week.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1s-chin ... -for-2023/

Interesting to see if they will replace it with or drop the calendar to 23 races. There is a gap now of 4 (spring break) weeks between Australia (April 2) to Baku (April 30). Portugal or Turkey are slated as the leading candidates for replacement races. Apparently they want to Move Baku up but the race authorities do not want to because of Ramadan (IIRC). Also that is a terribly planned back to back from Baku to Miami the week after.

Interesting to see what happens. I would love to see F1 race in Portimao next year.

Hadn't they announced that China was cancelled about a week ago already? (As per the posts above)
Or is it just now official?

I doubt they'll replace it with anything in any case. They may just try to reshuffle things a bit to avoid the month-long lull.
That said, if they really wanted to put something there instead, I'm sure they could give the French GP one more go.