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wingman
Posts: 4299
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:01 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

40K is a quite a bit of change for a good chunk of the US. They are purchasing cars in the 20's.


Many fossil fuel cars are over $30K anyway.


Yes, but those are not what a large chunk of Americans can afford. You are missing the point that a lot of America cant afford the investment into a brand new EV. I understand that its shortsighted considering gas prices, but that doesn't change the fact.


They will be soon thanks to Elon Musk and the foresight of just enough people in government and industry to understand why it’s so important. By the time $30,000 EVs are ubiquitous it’ll have been close to 20 years since the launch of the Model S. Average ranges will likely be approaching the ranges of today’s CE cars and chargers will be all over major transit ways. The next five years will see the conversion to EV at every major manufacturer become irreversible. This never would’ve happened if the drill baby drill and frack baby frack crowd had won the day. It tells us one thing at least, for every American pining for the 1950s there are two Americans that understand that we need to change..for us, for our kids and for this planet.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8623
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:28 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
You guys may laugh at your own remarks, however Trudeau's liberals are fully responsible for 9.944c/l price increase since the carbon tax scam started and Horgan's NDP is responsible for the fact that ACDC8 pays 2.148 CAD/liter in Vancouver compared to my 1.88 CAD/liter in YXU. That's simply a fact

BC, especially Metro Vancouver has always had the highest gas prices in the Nation - long before Horgan and the NDP were elected - The BC Liberals were the ones who introduced the Carbon Tax in BC. Metro Van has an extra 12.5 cent tax on fuel that the rest of the Province doesn't pay and that has zero to do with Horgan or any Provincial Government.

Regardless, Federal and Provincial Governments and their taxes didn't bump the price of fuel up 35% within a span of a couple of weeks. We were paying the exact same amount of Carbon Taxes at $1.60 a litre than we are at $2.15.
Last edited by ACDC8 on Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:43 pm, edited 6 times in total.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 812
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:32 pm

wingman wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Many fossil fuel cars are over $30K anyway.


Yes, but those are not what a large chunk of Americans can afford. You are missing the point that a lot of America cant afford the investment into a brand new EV. I understand that its shortsighted considering gas prices, but that doesn't change the fact.


They will be soon thanks to Elon Musk and the foresight of just enough people in government and industry to understand why it’s so important. By the time $30,000 EVs are ubiquitous it’ll have been close to 20 years since the launch of the Model S. Average ranges will likely be approaching the ranges of today’s CE cars and chargers will be all over major transit ways. The next five years will see the conversion to EV at every major manufacturer become irreversible. This never would’ve happened if the drill baby drill and frack baby frack crowd had won the day. It tells us one thing at least, for every American pining for the 1950s there are two Americans that understand that we need to change..for us, for our kids and for this planet.


I'm all for EVs, but what are you going to do to replace the rest of the products that come from oil? Its not just gas.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... raphic.pdf
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8623
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:37 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Governments have no issues raising taxes, but how often are taxes ever lowered or ended? Pretty much never,

Whenever there is an upcoming election :rotfl:

Thats the only reason Premier Kenny in Alberta has "paused" some taxes on fuel there - to save his ass after the way he and his Government botched their Covid response.
 
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WildcatYXU
Posts: 3315
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:42 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
You guys may laugh at your own remarks, however Trudeau's liberals are fully responsible for 9.944c/l price increase since the carbon tax scam started and Horgan's NDP is responsible for the fact that ACDC8 pays 2.148 CAD/liter in Vancouver compared to my 1.88 CAD/liter in YXU. That's simply a fact

BC, especially Metro Vancouver has always had the highest gas prices in the Nation - long before Horgan and the NDP were elected. Metro Van has an extra 12.5 cent tax on fuel that the rest of the Province doesn't pay and that has zero to do with Horgan or any Provincial Government.


I stand corrected. For some reason I thought that BC had several NDP controlled governments.
BTW, the gasoline prices in QC, NS and NL weren't that far from BC in the years I regularly visited them (2005-2018).

ACDC8 wrote:
Regardless, Federal and Provincial Governments and their taxes didn't bump the price of fuel up 35% within a span of a couple of weeks.


No, they indeed didn't. And this is not what I said. The bump came from the crap that's currently happening in the world and eventually will be gone. The taxes, however, will remain and grow.
Last edited by WildcatYXU on Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8623
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:47 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
I stand corrected. For some reason I thought that BC had several NDP controlled governments.
BTW, the gasoline prices in QC, NS and NL weren't that far from BC in the years I regularly visited them (2005-2018).

Horgan and the NDP were elected in 2017, last time we had an NDP Government was in the 90s. The Liberals brought in the carbon tax, can't remember if it was under Gordon Wilson or Christy Clark, some 15 years ago.

No idea what fuel prices in QC, or NS and NL are/were - all I know is we're constantly making the headlines with the highest prices in fuel. IIRC, some of those Provinces are regulated, or is it just NB thats regulated?
WildcatYXU wrote:
No, they indeed didn't. And this is not what I said. The bump came from the crap that's currently happening in the world and eventually will be gone. The taxes, however, will remain and grow.

And for some reason, that bump always seems to be bigger in Canada than elsewhere - whether its fuel, groceries, or anything else. In the US, they're going on about the price of gas going up 10 cents a gallon, yet we get the same increase per litre.
 
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WildcatYXU
Posts: 3315
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:00 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
No idea what fuel prices in QC, or NS and NL are/were - all I know is we're constantly making the headlines with the highest prices in fuel. IIRC, some of those Provinces are regulated, or is it just NB thats regulated?


I believe both NS and NL are regulated. I'm not sure about QC. However, Montreal used to be one of the most expensive places to fill up for me. Especially the Esso station in Dorval, which is the most convenient place to fill up the rental vehicle before turning it in.
In the fall of 2021 I was working on a project in Stanstead, QC. Stanstead is a town on a Vermont border. Bebe Plain, the neighboring town even has a street that's straddling the border. The gas there was about 10c/l cheaper compared to Sherbrooke and 15c/l compared to Dorval.
As far as the prices in BC are concerned, I'm not used to prices in Vancouver. I used to go regularly to Creston, flying into YXC or YCG. Prices there were comparable to the east. Creston used to be cheaper than both of them.
 
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WildcatYXU
Posts: 3315
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:06 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
And for some reason, that bump always seems to be bigger in Canada than elsewhere - whether its fuel, groceries, or anything else. In the US, they're going on about the price of gas going up 10 cents a gallon, yet we get the same increase per litre.


Yes, I have noticed that. But it looks like there may be some some improvement coming.

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/if- ... p-20-cents

I hope they're right.

Edit: londongasprices.com is showing 170c/l at the Pioneer gas station pictured in the article and 166.9c/l at Costco. The cheapest is, a First Nation gas station in Muncey at 158.6c/l

So they were right. Yesterday I was seeing mostly 188c/l, with one Petro Canada station being at 183c/l.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8801
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 1:42 am

ER757 wrote:
[Was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday who brought up that very point. A large portion of the population (in the US at least) do live in apartments so charging an EV would be problematic at least in the immediate future. I am sure new apartment complexes being built (there's quite a boom in my locale in the past few years) will have more charging stations, but that does nothing for the millions already built.

While living in MD back in 2017, the guy I was dating at the time bought a Smart for about $6k (came off a lease). I ALMOST followed in his footsteps and bought one myself but before I signed the papers I decided to ask the complex if I could have an extension from the balcony (on the first floor) to the parking lot to charge overnight. I was told "no". Add that the car only really had about 99 miles per charge, it meant I couldn't use it to go up to DC or anything and had to remain local. In retrospect it's good that I didn't buy it after all because support for the vehicle ended in 2019 in the US.

If after I pay off my Tucson I am living in a house with garage, I may make the venture into a plug-in hybrid. Still keep the benefit of gas in case I ever move out elsewhere or can't charge in time, and also get the advantage of EV mode.
 
tomaheath
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:58 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
ER757 wrote:
[Was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday who brought up that very point. A large portion of the population (in the US at least) do live in apartments so charging an EV would be problematic at least in the immediate future. I am sure new apartment complexes being built (there's quite a boom in my locale in the past few years) will have more charging stations, but that does nothing for the millions already built.

While living in MD back in 2017, the guy I was dating at the time bought a Smart for about $6k (came off a lease). I ALMOST followed in his footsteps and bought one myself but before I signed the papers I decided to ask the complex if I could have an extension from the balcony (on the first floor) to the parking lot to charge overnight. I was told "no". Add that the car only really had about 99 miles per charge, it meant I couldn't use it to go up to DC or anything and had to remain local. In retrospect it's good that I didn't buy it after all because support for the vehicle ended in 2019 in the US.

If after I pay off my Tucson I am living in a house with garage, I may make the venture into a plug-in hybrid. Still keep the benefit of gas in case I ever move out elsewhere or can't charge in time, and also get the advantage of EV mode.

I agree with you I’d definitely be more interested in a hybrid than a EV. The type of things I do and travel to I’d feel more comfortable with a gasoline powered vehicle.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24663
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:23 am

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

40K is a quite a bit of change for a good chunk of the US. They are purchasing cars in the 20's.


Many fossil fuel cars are over $30K anyway.


Yes, but those are not what a large chunk of Americans can afford. You are missing the point that a lot of America cant afford the investment into a brand new EV. I understand that its shortsighted considering gas prices, but that doesn't change the fact.


What fact? Gas is going to run out. Make an initial investment now and you won't have to play catch-up. Make an investment now and you wan't be in this "DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON AN EV!" propaganda in the future. EVs will get better. They already have. Spending an extra $10000 now will save that and more in the long run.

Like the people who buy old cooking oil to run their old diesels. They have the right idea, also. They made an initial investment and it is paying off.
 
M564038
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:52 am

And many of you misses the point again.
If those that can starts buying EVs on a large scale, it will gradually easen off the pressure on the gas prices. Even if you can’t have the 14000Km range EV with a battery guarantee of 250 years for $1200 you think you need, you can have lower gas prices as soon as the EV market share reaches a certain point.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 15615
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:52 am

Maybe in the US, but in Europe I'm pretty sure gas taxes would be increased in that case, to pay for EV incentives.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 21113
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 pm

Aesma wrote:
Maybe in the US, but in Europe I'm pretty sure gas taxes would be increased in that case, to pay for EV incentives.


Pretty much - those incentives to go greener have to be paid from somewhere, so it's only logical to disincentivise the less green solutions by taxing them more.

Typically, as demand for a product reduces, the price will rise, not fall, so I don't see how Americans would be immune to that.
 
QF7
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
Typically, as demand for a product reduces, the price will rise, not fall, so I don't see how Americans would be immune to that.


Wait… say what? I’m not sure that’s what you meant to say. Basic economics says the opposite. Remember in the early days of Covid when everyone stayed home and stopped driving? The price of oil fell so far it actually briefly went negative - oil producers had to pay someone to buy it!

I’ve always enjoyed your posts so I don’t mean to argue. I think I’m missing your point this time though.
 
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Classa64
Topic Author
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:40 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:17 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
And for some reason, that bump always seems to be bigger in Canada than elsewhere - whether its fuel, groceries, or anything else. In the US, they're going on about the price of gas going up 10 cents a gallon, yet we get the same increase per litre.


Yes, I have noticed that. But it looks like there may be some some improvement coming.

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/if- ... p-20-cents

I hope they're right.

Edit: londongasprices.com is showing 170c/l at the Pioneer gas station pictured in the article and 166.9c/l at Costco. The cheapest is, a First Nation gas station in Muncey at 158.6c/l

So they were right. Yesterday I was seeing mostly 188c/l, with one Petro Canada station being at 183c/l.


That's just a kick in the head for us up north as usual, always higher than every were else.
It was 1.98 Thursday and waited till Friday to fill up, thinking it MAY to go down but had my doubts, it did not drop at all
Its Saturday morning and its down a whopping 2 cents.to 1.96

C.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 15615
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:36 pm

QF7 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Typically, as demand for a product reduces, the price will rise, not fall, so I don't see how Americans would be immune to that.


Wait… say what? I’m not sure that’s what you meant to say. Basic economics says the opposite. Remember in the early days of Covid when everyone stayed home and stopped driving? The price of oil fell so far it actually briefly went negative - oil producers had to pay someone to buy it!

I’ve always enjoyed your posts so I don’t mean to argue. I think I’m missing your point this time though.


Short term vs long term. WIth oil demand decreasing, investment and production will decrease faster. Money will go into other things.
 
QF7
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sat Mar 12, 2022 5:11 pm

Aesma wrote:
QF7 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Typically, as demand for a product reduces, the price will rise, not fall, so I don't see how Americans would be immune to that.


Wait… say what? I’m not sure that’s what you meant to say. Basic economics says the opposite. Remember in the early days of Covid when everyone stayed home and stopped driving? The price of oil fell so far it actually briefly went negative - oil producers had to pay someone to buy it!

I’ve always enjoyed your posts so I don’t mean to argue. I think I’m missing your point this time though.


Short term vs long term. WIth oil demand decreasing, investment and production will decrease faster. Money will go into other things.


Well… very long term maybe. I’m sure it costs much more nowadays to get a buggy built than shortly after the automobile was invented. It would be hard to find anybody with the skills to even build a buggy with the demand being so low.

But as long as sufficient demand remains to keep prices above extraction costs oil will continue to be produced. Keep in mind there are many other uses for petroleum than fuel for transportation.

To be clear, I 100% agree the future of transportation is green, whether that be electric or hydrogen or other alternatives to fossil fuel.

Cheers!
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8623
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:28 am

M564038 wrote:
And many of you misses the point again.
If those that can starts buying EVs on a large scale, it will gradually easen off the pressure on the gas prices. Even if you can’t have the 14000Km range EV with a battery guarantee of 250 years for $1200 you think you need, you can have lower gas prices as soon as the EV market share reaches a certain point.

Right, how dare we expect a vehicle to perform to our actual needs and not just adjust our needs to the EV fanatics wet dream before we drop tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle :sarcastic:

I could live with 400km range, as long as I can charge it each and every time (with no negative effect on the battery life) in the same amount it would take me to fuel an ICE car - is that really such an unreasonable requirement? Or does that not fit your driver "profile"?
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:32 pm

Even with lawn equipment, I just purchased a gasoline powered $480 USD Honda mower instead of a battery one. Sips gas (maybe 5 gallons max a season) reliable as heck, built like a tank. But 2 factors were the most critical - won't need to buy a new $150 battery in 3 years (thats how long they've lasted for me) and it's made in North Carolina instead of China.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 15615
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:04 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
And many of you misses the point again.
If those that can starts buying EVs on a large scale, it will gradually easen off the pressure on the gas prices. Even if you can’t have the 14000Km range EV with a battery guarantee of 250 years for $1200 you think you need, you can have lower gas prices as soon as the EV market share reaches a certain point.

Right, how dare we expect a vehicle to perform to our actual needs and not just adjust our needs to the EV fanatics wet dream before we drop tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle :sarcastic:

I could live with 400km range, as long as I can charge it each and every time (with no negative effect on the battery life) in the same amount it would take me to fuel an ICE car - is that really such an unreasonable requirement? Or does that not fit your driver "profile"?


I don't know if it's unreasonable, but vehicles are always a compromise between various things. For example you drive a large truck, you get poor mileage, there is no way around it. You also get abysmal handling. If you want to drive in silence, there is no alternative to an electric car, unless you can afford a Rolls Royce maybe. Instant torque and crazy acceleration is also the domain of electric cars. Etc.

One day ultra fast charging will be possible, the problem is that you need quite the advanced cable (water cooled, or superconducting), probably solid state battery, etc. Meanwhile very fast charging will do the trick for most people, and for commuting, picking up the kids, day to day driving, slow charging at home/on the street is the way to go.

If you can't live with that, don't, but don't be surprised if in 5 years time most cars on the market are electric, reducing your choice of gas ones, and reducing the incentive for governments to care about the price of gas.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:39 pm

Maybe most of the NEW cars will be electric, but nobody buying a $60,000 ICE vehicle today will scrap it in 5 years. Heck you probably still have a years worth of payments due on the car.
And that's not counting semi trucks which run about $150,000 in the States.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 15517
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:51 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Maybe most of the NEW cars will be electric, but nobody buying a $60,000 ICE vehicle today will scrap it in 5 years. Heck you probably still have a years worth of payments due on the car.
And that's not counting semi trucks which run about $150,000 in the States.



At about 17 million cars in the US sold per year, that is significant. It will change over the next 5-15 years. Remember the average age for a car on the road is 12.1 years.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/28/cars-on-american-roads-keep-getting-older.htm

That's about an 4-5% flip a year. So if we start getting more electric vehicles it will make a drastic change.
 
M564038
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:17 pm

Water cooled 800V 350kW fast charging is long since a reality. They are becoming the replacement for pumps at gas stations. Lots of cars can utilize it too. Even the most hardened outback formula 1 driver, driving at autobahn speeds with a caravan hanging on the back, uphill with headwind on a dirt road in the middle of the canadian winter won’t use up an hour’s worth of charging at those speeds in one normal 28 hour working day.

Aesma wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
And many of you misses the point again.
If those that can starts buying EVs on a large scale, it will gradually easen off the pressure on the gas prices. Even if you can’t have the 14000Km range EV with a battery guarantee of 250 years for $1200 you think you need, you can have lower gas prices as soon as the EV market share reaches a certain point.

Right, how dare we expect a vehicle to perform to our actual needs and not just adjust our needs to the EV fanatics wet dream before we drop tens of thousands of dollars on a vehicle :sarcastic:

I could live with 400km range, as long as I can charge it each and every time (with no negative effect on the battery life) in the same amount it would take me to fuel an ICE car - is that really such an unreasonable requirement? Or does that not fit your driver "profile"?


I don't know if it's unreasonable, but vehicles are always a compromise between various things. For example you drive a large truck, you get poor mileage, there is no way around it. You also get abysmal handling. If you want to drive in silence, there is no alternative to an electric car, unless you can afford a Rolls Royce maybe. Instant torque and crazy acceleration is also the domain of electric cars. Etc.

One day ultra fast charging will be possible, the problem is that you need quite the advanced cable (water cooled, or superconducting), probably solid state battery, etc. Meanwhile very fast charging will do the trick for most people, and for commuting, picking up the kids, day to day driving, slow charging at home/on the street is the way to go.

If you can't live with that, don't, but don't be surprised if in 5 years time most cars on the market are electric, reducing your choice of gas ones, and reducing the incentive for governments to care about the price of gas.
 
af773atmsp
Posts: 2552
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:37 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:37 pm

After waiting 3 months my sister finally got her new Honda CRV Hybrid. Total cost was around $40K, which is a bit steep especially in her financial position and there’s probably good deals on slightly older cars that have just as good of gas mileage. My sister’s daily commute is about 40% city roads and 60% on the highway, so I’m not sure how much more efficient it will be over her previous car (2010 Mercury Mariner with 4 cylinder engine).
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8623
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
If you can't live with that, don't, but don't be surprised if in 5 years time most cars on the market are electric, reducing your choice of gas ones, and reducing the incentive for governments to care about the price of gas.

And until that day comes, there's still choice, and there will be choice for years to come. The Canadian Government set out realistic goals, 2035 all new vehicles must be some form of ZEV (which doesn't mean they have to be EV) and another 15 years after that to let the used ICE market slowly deplete itself.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8623
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:31 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
After waiting 3 months my sister finally got her new Honda CRV Hybrid. Total cost was around $40K, which is a bit steep especially in her financial position and there’s probably good deals on slightly older cars that have just as good of gas mileage. My sister’s daily commute is about 40% city roads and 60% on the highway, so I’m not sure how much more efficient it will be over her previous car (2010 Mercury Mariner with 4 cylinder engine).

Hybrids can be very efficient, but there is always the difference in fuel savings and initial cost of the vehicles that play a factor if cost saving is the ultimate goal. We don't get the CRV Hybrid here in Canada, so I can't comment on that. But in another thread, I mentioned the Corolla - if you take a better equipped ICE model compared to the hybrid model, with the estimated fuel savings per year, it'll take you about 7-8 years to recoup the initial purchase costs - close to 15 years if you opt for a base ICE Corolla.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8623
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Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:37 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Maybe most of the NEW cars will be electric, but nobody buying a $60,000 ICE vehicle today will scrap it in 5 years. Heck you probably still have a years worth of payments due on the car.
And that's not counting semi trucks which run about $150,000 in the States.

Thats another current major issue with EVs - cost. My last two cars were just over $40 000.00 - never again. The cheapest EVs here are just under $40 000.00, so by that alone, they're eliminated from my purchase choices. People getting into $600 plus a month car payment for 7 to 8 years, the way the cost of living is spiralling out of control? Stupid people, especially when they get brainwashed by the EV zealots that they'll be swimming in money through "fuel savings".

The price difference between the cheapest EV in Canada and a small compact ICE car is about $500 a month over 60 months, thats $6000 a year or $30000 over the life of the financing. That can buy a heck of a lot of gas.
 
johns624
Posts: 5560
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:47 pm

I'm doing a DTW-PIT-AOO long weekend in 3 weeks. It'll be about 1000 miles and my car will get 30-35mpg (Subaru Impreza). So gas will cost an extra 30-50 dollars...no big deal in the great scheme of things.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 21113
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Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:15 pm

QF7 wrote:
Wait… say what? I’m not sure that’s what you meant to say. Basic economics says the opposite. Remember in the early days of Covid when everyone stayed home and stopped driving? The price of oil fell so far it actually briefly went negative - oil producers had to pay someone to buy it!


Yes, but those producers were still geared up for 'normal' level of production and consumption. As the proportion of EVs continues to grow and petrol consumption begins a terminal decline, it will become more expensive to produce. The price will rise as consumption falls with zero prospect of a recovery in demand. The last few people driving petrol-driven vehicles when 95% have moved to EVs will be paying unimaginable prices for it because demand will be so low.
 
tomaheath
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:45 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Even with lawn equipment, I just purchased a gasoline powered $480 USD Honda mower instead of a battery one. Sips gas (maybe 5 gallons max a season) reliable as heck, built like a tank. But 2 factors were the most critical - won't need to buy a new $150 battery in 3 years (thats how long they've lasted for me) and it's made in North Carolina instead of China.

I have a 10 year old Honda push mower thing has been great! Obviously depends on my yard size but I go through about 5 gallons a season with mowing once a week.
 
tomaheath
Posts: 901
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:50 am

scbriml wrote:
QF7 wrote:
Wait… say what? I’m not sure that’s what you meant to say. Basic economics says the opposite. Remember in the early days of Covid when everyone stayed home and stopped driving? The price of oil fell so far it actually briefly went negative - oil producers had to pay someone to buy it!


Yes, but those producers were still geared up for 'normal' level of production and consumption. As the proportion of EVs continues to grow and petrol consumption begins a terminal decline, it will become more expensive to produce. The price will rise as consumption falls with zero prospect of a recovery in demand. The last few people driving petrol-driven vehicles when 95% have moved to EVs will be paying unimaginable prices for it because demand will be so low.

I’m guessing it’ll be a while before 95% move to EV. I know where I live and the activities I do involving my truck just doesn’t work for me obviously in the future things will change but short to mid term I just don’t see it now if I lived in a city I definitely can see the benefits.
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 4518
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:38 am

af773atmsp wrote:
After waiting 3 months my sister finally got her new Honda CRV Hybrid. Total cost was around $40K, which is a bit steep especially in her financial position and there’s probably good deals on slightly older cars that have just as good of gas mileage. My sister’s daily commute is about 40% city roads and 60% on the highway, so I’m not sure how much more efficient it will be over her previous car (2010 Mercury Mariner with 4 cylinder engine).

$40K was a good deal. When my partner was recently looking, they actually had a CRV Hybrid on the lot - had all the bells and whistles. They wanted closer to $50K and she couldn't justify it, Ended up with a
top end gas powered model HRV for around $37K
 
NIKV69
Posts: 15070
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:21 am

Paid the most I ever have for a gallon today. $4.99 hows that hopey changey stuff working for ya?
 
oldJoe
Posts: 1050
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 3:26 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Paid the most I ever have for a gallon today. $4.99 hows that hopey changey stuff working for ya?


If you call this expensive let me tell you this. I paid yesterday for one liter Diesel 2,39€ in Germany which means ~9.8 US$ for a gallon
 
M564038
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:11 am

Gotta be 15 years since I saw a price that ridicolously low.

NIKV69 wrote:
Paid the most I ever have for a gallon today. $4.99 hows that hopey changey stuff working for ya?
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4521
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:27 am

Filled up the pickup truck yesterday for £1.83.9 per litre. It was more expensive than I was used to but we were as a family on a trip out, not being shit at, no planes trying to Bomb us, there were no tanks, I wasn’t forced to leave my wife and daughter to fight. Whilst filling up the car I was free to choose what I listened to and to have a legitimate anti government opinion as well as browsing Facebook. A marvellous experience.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 11:06 am

oldJoe wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Paid the most I ever have for a gallon today. $4.99 hows that hopey changey stuff working for ya?


If you call this expensive let me tell you this. I paid yesterday for one liter Diesel 2,39€ in Germany which means ~9.8 US$ for a gallon


Yup paid 2,43 € here in Germany yesterday for Diesel. Diesel seems now a lot more expensive compared to Petrol compared the last few years where it has always been cheaper. Does Germany get more Diesel from different sources than other EU countries?
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15517
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:39 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Paid the most I ever have for a gallon today. $4.99 hows that hopey changey stuff working for ya?




And in the real world sanctions and wars and economics have real effects on prices. But I guess you subscribe to the anti american GOP Twitter feed lies about how economics work
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21113
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:42 pm

tomaheath wrote:
scbriml wrote:
QF7 wrote:
Wait… say what? I’m not sure that’s what you meant to say. Basic economics says the opposite. Remember in the early days of Covid when everyone stayed home and stopped driving? The price of oil fell so far it actually briefly went negative - oil producers had to pay someone to buy it!


Yes, but those producers were still geared up for 'normal' level of production and consumption. As the proportion of EVs continues to grow and petrol consumption begins a terminal decline, it will become more expensive to produce. The price will rise as consumption falls with zero prospect of a recovery in demand. The last few people driving petrol-driven vehicles when 95% have moved to EVs will be paying unimaginable prices for it because demand will be so low.

I’m guessing it’ll be a while before 95% move to EV. I know where I live and the activities I do involving my truck just doesn’t work for me obviously in the future things will change but short to mid term I just don’t see it now if I lived in a city I definitely can see the benefits.


I'm certainly not suggesting it will happen overnight, but if people are holding on to the idea that petrol will get cheaper as ever decreasing numbers use it, they're in for a rude shock. Yes, population density will drive the pace of change - it will be far easier for city dwellers to move to EV than rural folks.
 
QF7
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
QF7 wrote:
Wait… say what? I’m not sure that’s what you meant to say. Basic economics says the opposite. Remember in the early days of Covid when everyone stayed home and stopped driving? The price of oil fell so far it actually briefly went negative - oil producers had to pay someone to buy it!


Yes, but those producers were still geared up for 'normal' level of production and consumption. As the proportion of EVs continues to grow and petrol consumption begins a terminal decline, it will become more expensive to produce. The price will rise as consumption falls with zero prospect of a recovery in demand. The last few people driving petrol-driven vehicles when 95% have moved to EVs will be paying unimaginable prices for it because demand will be so low.


Thanks for explaining your rationale. The unknown is how long it will take to reach that point. If you’re familiar with the innovation adoption model you know there is a cohort of early adopters who rush to buy something just because it’s new and cool and then other buyers come on board more slowly. Also wealthier individuals can afford to buy in earlier. But you don’t see many Joe The Plumbers driving Teslas. What I expect will happen is the proportion of EVs and hybrids will gradually increase and as you say the overall demand for gasoline/diesel will slowly decline. Oil companies will gradually reduce production to keep supply and demand roughly in balance but prices will slowly fall. What that will do is change the cost/benefit decision for Joe in favor of petroleum-powered vehicles (unless of course the total cost of ownership of electric declines even faster). Every Joe who decides to stay with petroleum for another several years will slow the decline in demand.

Also, this thread is focused almost exclusively on North America and Western Europe. Even as advanced countries we don’t yet have nearly the charging infrastructure to support mass adoption of EVs. Now consider how long it will take to install such infrastructure across the poorer parts of Central and South America, Asia, and Africa.

Demand for fossil fuel-powered vehicles is not going away any time soon.

But yes, eventually it will happen, I agree.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15517
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:43 pm

Interestingly Oil is continuing it's decline. around 104 today.
There will be some price easing soon on gasoline, or DOJ investigations into price gouging.

https://oilprice.com/oil-price-charts/#WTI-Crude
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21113
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:48 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Paid the most I ever have for a gallon today. $4.99 hows that hopey changey stuff working for ya?


Let me check... Nope, sympathyometer not even flickering.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21113
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:50 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Filled up the pickup truck yesterday for £1.83.9 per litre. It was more expensive than I was used to but we were as a family on a trip out, not being shit at, no planes trying to Bomb us, there were no tanks, I wasn’t forced to leave my wife and daughter to fight. Whilst filling up the car I was free to choose what I listened to and to have a legitimate anti government opinion as well as browsing Facebook. A marvellous experience.

Fred


Yes, sometimes a little perspective is required, not the short-sighted expectation that fuel prices should always be low.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21113
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:52 pm

QF7 wrote:
Thanks for explaining your rationale. The unknown is how long it will take to reach that point.


Yes, it will certainly take some time, but it seems pretty inevitable at this point. Russia just gave it a big shove though.
 
QF7
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:42 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:57 pm

scbriml wrote:
QF7 wrote:
Thanks for explaining your rationale. The unknown is how long it will take to reach that point.


Yes, it will certainly take some time, but it seems pretty inevitable at this point. Russia just gave it a big shove though.


On that we agree!
 
leader1
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:44 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:04 pm

casinterest wrote:
Interestingly Oil is continuing it's decline. around 104 today.
There will be some price easing soon on gasoline, or DOJ investigations into price gouging.

https://oilprice.com/oil-price-charts/#WTI-Crude


I’m starting to see it. I live in Whitestone, NYC. A week ago, I paid $4.50/gallon. Yesterday, it was $4.09. I had to do a double take because I thought it was $4.90, but nope…
 
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seb146
Posts: 24663
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:45 pm

Some people are talking about a "gas tax holiday". I think that is a terrible idea because oil companies are not obligated to lower prices when that $.50 per gallon (or whatever it is in your area) is taken out. Do you honestly believe that, out of the goodness of their hearts, oil companies would lower the cost at the pump if gas taxes were suspended? Further, where would that revenue for fixing bridges and roads come from? That is a lot of lost revenue.
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4412
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:56 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Filled up the pickup truck yesterday for £1.83.9 per litre. It was more expensive than I was used to but we were as a family on a trip out, not being shit at, no planes trying to Bomb us, there were no tanks, I wasn’t forced to leave my wife and daughter to fight. Whilst filling up the car I was free to choose what I listened to and to have a legitimate anti government opinion as well as browsing Facebook. A marvellous experience.

Fred

I also made a small trip with my family (about 200 km, never drove faster than 120 km/h). It somehow felt wrong that we were enjoying the beautiful weather while Ukrainian families are fighting for their lives…

May Putin suffer from ingrown toenails for the rest of his life…
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 361
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: Gasoline prices, it hurts.

Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:19 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Paid the most I ever have for a gallon today. $4.99 hows that hopey changey stuff working for ya?


Wait. Are you making an Obama reference?

Anyway, why not pull up your bootstraps and find a better paying job?
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