hashtagconfused wrote:

will states that are pausing gas taxes cause more harm than good with the loss of revenue for things like road repairs?

It depends

Remember all those houses that are going up in value, and all those pay raises? Many states are making the dough. So I think a lot of budgets can absorb it.

If in the long run the taxes are suspended too long, then you will see issues .

If prices do fall in September, IMO that would be the time to put a carbon tax on fuel. Political suicide but American's will just go back to their old ways. As they have each time prices spiked and then fell.

If anything, at least raise the federal tax on jet fuel to that of diesel.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

If prices do fall in September, IMO that would be the time to put a carbon tax on fuel. Political suicide but American's will just go back to their old ways. As they have each time prices spiked and then fell.

If anything, at least raise the federal tax on jet fuel to that of diesel.

Well, the other side is that the Electric Car revolution is going to get running again.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/01/cars/che ... index.html

GM lowered the prices to make sure the Bolt vehicles are competitive in the marketplace, spokesperson Shad Balch said.
"Affordability has always been a priority for these vehicles," Balch said.
The 2023 Bolt EUV starts at $28,195, a $6,300 drop from its previous price.
Balch said GM is committed to producing a record amount of Bolt vehicles this year.
The Bolt's new pricing may attract interest from buyers who can't afford other electric vehicles. Tesla's cheapest vehicle, the Model 3, sells for $46,990, and reaches $48,440 after fees, some of which are industry standard. Chevrolet is including dealer freight charges in the Bolt's base price. The Model 3's price has increased 34% from three years ago.

We are going to need those electric vehicles.
Chevron CEO Says No New Refineries In U.S—Ever. https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News ... SEver.html

Chevron CEO Mike Wirth’s view of U.S. refineries is that there will never be another new refinery building in the United States.”

He's talking about oil refineries. Makes me wonder who is going to build all those magical sustainable jet fuel refineries the airlines are praying for.

Sorry all, but i just do not have blind faith or belief electric “this or that” is a panacea for all enviro ails.

I would much rather have cheap gas, and let the do gooders invest their pink, or childless couple disposable income resource energy on pseudo green.

I feel a well rounded energy policy is one in which we are free to invest in the type of propulsion we choose. There are efficient ocean liners for those who are so against future SST transports, which many of us look forward to be speeding across the world upon.

Think that makes you better than me? Well so be it! Enjoy the sea. I don’t judge.

Here is some real life social science to help one draw their own conclusions, why cheap gas is important.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-a ... 1654268401

Doing road trips is more important than giving our children a liveable planet, we get it.

KlimaBXsst wrote:

Here is some real life social science to help one draw their own conclusions, why cheap gas is important.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-a ... 1654268401

Why do you need cheap gas? As more refineries shutdown and gas stations close, you'll find that having access to any gasoline will be most important. The possibility exists that sometime in the 2030's it will be ICE vehicles that will be the ones spending time searching for places to "re-charge" ( fill-up).

KlimaBXsst wrote:

Sorry all, but i just do not have blind faith or belief electric “this or that” is a panacea for all enviro ails.

I would much rather have cheap gas, and let the do gooders invest their pink, or childless couple disposable income resource energy on pseudo green.

I feel a well rounded energy policy is one in which we are free to invest in the type of propulsion we choose. There are efficient ocean liners for those who are so against future SST transports, which many of us look forward to be speeding across the world upon.

Think that makes you better than me? Well so be it! Enjoy the sea. I don’t judge.

Your wish for cheap gas is moot.

You'd need to build 4 or 5 more refineries the size of BP's Whiting Indiana facility which would need access to feedstock and refined products pipelines, 3,500+ acres for each site, and would take 10-15 years to build at probably around $50 billion. Each.

The costs big oil would have to shell out to make that happen would be passed along to you pretty much cancelling any savings you so desire. Plus if Chevron isnt going to commit to building any new refining capacity, you sure as hell won't see Exxon, BP, Phillips, etc. etc. venture out on such an endeavor.

KlimaBXsst wrote:

Here is some real life social science to help one draw their own conclusions, why cheap gas is important.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/i-rented-a ... 1654268401

For such trip, take a flight instead.

OPEC agrees to increase production more than 400k barrels/day and price immediately starts heading towards $120 again.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/03/oil-mar ... russia.htm

How is speculation not a factor again?

The quickest way for speculators to get torched (and prices to drop) is with a noticeable drop in demand.

But otherwise it's pretty hard to stop it - look at Crypto currency's for example. But once the greed breaks, things can happen quick.

We hit 236.9/litre this weekend - the "experts" are saying prices are supposed to surge again in the coming days. Yet people are still driving like complete morons, smashing on the gas every time the light turns green while [email protected] and moaning about how the prices are all Trudeau and Horgan's "fault". Idiots.

Get to do a mini-road trip tomorrow to look at some new cars (more specifically colours of a certain car I'm interested in). Plan the trip ahead, throw in some other stops so I don't have to go out that way again unless I need to and bam, fuel costs just got reduced. So much easier than blaming politicians for everything and anything.

Can you convert to other fuels in North America ? Here you can go for LPG, but the conversion is a bit of a bother. E85 is easier. My father drives on LPG but he bought the car already equipped from the factory (Dacia Sandero). 1 liter is 0.80€, same for E85. Taking into account the decreased fuel economy, it's still half the cost of petrol right now.

Aesma wrote:

Can you convert to other fuels in North America ? Here you can go for LPG, but the conversion is a bit of a bother. E85 is easier. My father drives on LPG but he bought the car already equipped from the factory (Dacia Sandero). 1 liter is 0.80€, same for E85. Taking into account the decreased fuel economy, it's still half the cost of petrol right now.

Its not a big business here in Canada and hard to come by. Propane was a big thing back in the 90s when the world was going to end when gas hit 60 cents a litre, but that fad died off pretty quick. Even hydrogen is hard to come by, in all of British Columbia, there might be a handful of places you can fuel up and they're pretty much all located in the Metro Vancouver area. E85 isn't common either, might be more so in the Prairie Provinces but honestly, I can't ever recall seeing a gas station here that offered it.

None of the biofuels in my State (Ohio) are cost competitive on a per mile driven basis with gasoline. Lots of stations here have E85 but I've never seen anyone using it. Ohio grows a ton of corn and has local ethanol plants.
Propane is way more expensive per BTU. NAT Gas vehicles are really expensive to retrofit and finding places to fill up is an issue.

My new (to me) Honda Fit is delivering around 38 miles per gallon around town. Fun to drive and maneuverable in case a pickup tries to run me over.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

My new (to me) Honda Fit is delivering around 38 miles per gallon around town. Fun to drive and maneuverable in case a pickup tries to run me over.

I like the Fit. brings back memories of my 5th Gen Civic - economical but fun to drive. While our family is primarily VW, the only two non-VW cars just happen to both be Fits.

Our Michigan friends are quietly continuing efforts to shut down the Enbridge pipeline that provides crude oil and light ends to refineries in Michigan, Ohio and Ontario. All at a time of historically high prices.

Good opinion piece today in the Financial Post that details how Ontario electric rate payers massively subsidize electrical exports to Michigan while Michigan works to cripple fuel production in Ohio and Ontario.
"Parker Gallant: Why do we subsidize Michigan while its governor tries to shut down Line 5?"
https://financialpost.com/opinion/parke ... own-line-5

I wonder how Delta’s Trainer facility is doing (probably very well!)

Due to inflation, I personally doubt gas will fall below $3 again going forward.

Gas is now over $5 in NE Ohio.

Trainer is probably doing ok. Not as good as a refinery that gets it's crude by pipeline and from US production.

Trainer gets it's crude either by ship or rail. Understand the tanker rates (all not just Jones Act) are going thru the roof. Trains are always way more expensive and they are having their own issues with crewing and rising fuel costs.

Cheap gas = Democracy Freedom of movement.

I value freedom.

In the UK the price of diesel is expected to be £2 per LITRE by September

readytotaxi wrote:

In the UK the price of diesel is expected to be £2 per LITRE by September

We're not far behind you in Canada - right now diesel is about 2.50 CAD per litre (£1.60)

Aesma wrote:

Can you convert to other fuels in North America ? Here you can go for LPG, but the conversion is a bit of a bother. E85 is easier. My father drives on LPG but he bought the car already equipped from the factory (Dacia Sandero). 1 liter is 0.80€, same for E85. Taking into account the decreased fuel economy, it's still half the cost of petrol right now.

Aren't LPG price rising fast too? Looking at local LPG station price it seems like they doubled over the span of a year.
And if one is changing their vehicle for fuel cost anyway, why not get a electric car?
As for cost comparison with gasoline... Do they provide same driving range with same volume of fuel?

In the US State I live in, E85 gasoline sells for $4.19 per gallon. Regular gasoline sells for $5 per gallon. Since you can expect 25% less miles per gallon with E85, it is not an economical choice.

I'm not familiar with LPG fuel for automobiles because the few converted vehicles here run on either propane or compressed natural gas. Propane is $2.95 per gallon before road use and sales taxes of around $.55 per gallon. 1 gallon of propane contains 85% of the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline. So propane would be around a 1 US dollar better per gallon than the gasoline equivalent. But hardly anyone uses propane in motor vehicles due to the fact that gasoline has been cheaper for many years and who wants the hassle of finding and fueling with propane. Best left for BBQ's and forklifts.

Efforts continue to shut Line 5 that runs from Superior Wi to Sarnia, Ontario. It carries 550,000 bbls of Canadian and North Dakota oil per day. Environmentalists claim there are safer way to move this oil but it beats me on where you are going to find the trains or pipeline capacity to move that much oil around the Great Lakes.
"Environmentalists claim Line 5 shutdown wouldn't affect gas prices much"
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/ ... 553104001/

While i was really wanting to compare Australia with Russia with China on car usage here is some basic regional statistics others may enjoy to ease the pocket book pain at the pump.

Like i said before basically per capita, Brit and Canadians combined average about what and American drives annually. Interesting stats here.

https://internationalcomparisons.org/en ... portation/

MohawkWeekend wrote:

In the US State I live in, E85 gasoline sells for $4.19 per gallon. Regular gasoline sells for $5 per gallon. Since you can expect 25% less miles per gallon with E85, it is not an economical choice.

This is the thing with E85. Yes, it may be cheaper per gallon, but requires more gallons. Corn-state friends and family avoid the stuff. One friend reported a 1/3 decrease in MPG when using E85 in his truck. Like Mohawk, I personally saw a 25% decrease in MPG when using E85 in my car. So, unless the E85 is 25% cheaper per gallon, it' doesn't make economical sense. And that doesn't account the diesel burned by the farmers growing the corn to provide the E part of the E85.

TangoandCash wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

In the US State I live in, E85 gasoline sells for $4.19 per gallon. Regular gasoline sells for $5 per gallon. Since you can expect 25% less miles per gallon with E85, it is not an economical choice.

This is the thing with E85. Yes, it may be cheaper per gallon, but requires more gallons. Corn-state friends and family avoid the stuff. One friend reported a 1/3 decrease in MPG when using E85 in his truck. Like Mohawk, I personally saw a 25% decrease in MPG when using E85 in my car. So, unless the E85 is 25% cheaper per gallon, it' doesn't make economical sense. And that doesn't account the diesel burned by the farmers growing the corn to provide the E part of the E85.

Ethanol is a completely nonsense political pork program. All at a time when the world needs food production.

Any energy professional knows that ethanol is not part of the "real" energy industry. It is a farm bill program; a fake business.

c933103 wrote:

Aesma wrote:

Can you convert to other fuels in North America ? Here you can go for LPG, but the conversion is a bit of a bother. E85 is easier. My father drives on LPG but he bought the car already equipped from the factory (Dacia Sandero). 1 liter is 0.80€, same for E85. Taking into account the decreased fuel economy, it's still half the cost of petrol right now.

Aren't LPG price rising fast too? Looking at local LPG station price it seems like they doubled over the span of a year.
And if one is changing their vehicle for fuel cost anyway, why not get a electric car?
As for cost comparison with gasoline... Do they provide same driving range with same volume of fuel?

For LPG you add a dedicated tank, for example in my father's car it takes the place of the spare wheel. It gives about 350Km range. There is no range anxiety as you still have a full tank of gasoline. LPG isn't available everywhere, but is common enough.

Since a few years there is a government website in France to look at fuel prices : https://www.prix-carburants.gouv.fr/

The usual pump where we get LPG is about the same price as usual : 0.809€/liter. In other, cheaper parts of France it could be down to 0.6-0.7/liter

c933103 : my mother's car/minivan is 9 years old so she's looking into changing it, although it's still in good shape and working fine. It's a Citroën C4 Grand Picasso II with a diesel engine and automatic transmission, with 200 000 Km. She just changed the diesel particulate filter and the mechanic said the car is good for 200 000 Km more ! The problem is that there is no equivalent electric minivan, and if there was, it would probably be extremely expensive, with a short range. The availability of charging stations would thus be a deciding factor, as well as the price of charging.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Why do you need cheap gas?.

Expensive fuel, just like inflation, hurts the poor far harder than anyone else. Do you want poor people to lack cheap, reliable means of getting to and from work, enjoying their leisure time, etc?

Expensive fuel also hurts by raising the prices of EVERYTHING else. Again, do you want to make poor people suffer?

Just to ponder
"...gas prices are at their highest in Hong Kong, at $11.213 per gallon, followed by Norway ($10.820), Denmark ($10.321) and Finland ($10.125)."
Gasoline prices are an unbeatable $0.084 per gallon in Venezuela, the country that boasts the biggest oil reserves in the world. The Latin American country is followed by Libya ($0.119) and Iran ($0.202)."

https://www.newsweek.com/how-us-gas-pri ... es-1714242

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Just to ponder
"...gas prices are at their highest in Hong Kong, at $11.213 per gallon, followed by Norway ($10.820), Denmark ($10.321) and Finland ($10.125)."
Gasoline prices are an unbeatable $0.084 per gallon in Venezuela, the country that boasts the biggest oil reserves in the world. The Latin American country is followed by Libya ($0.119) and Iran ($0.202)."

https://www.newsweek.com/how-us-gas-pri ... es-1714242

Producers are making money hand over fist on this also. I also find it funny my fellow Americans are freaking out over this when we still have ample supply, and this is the third time the big OPEC ptoducers have done this very thing in the last 50 years (last being 2008-14), and we still bend over backwards for them despite their activity.

History is clearly not taught well here, or nobody listens in class .

EA CO AS wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Why do you need cheap gas?.

Expensive fuel, just like inflation, hurts the poor far harder than anyone else. Do you want poor people to lack cheap, reliable means of getting to and from work, enjoying their leisure time, etc?

Expensive fuel also hurts by raising the prices of EVERYTHING else. Again, do you want to make poor people suffer?

High prices caused by lack of supply caused by corporations cutting production. Why not take some of the billions in profit to fix or construct new refineries.

We all know why, to drive up profits to drive up share prices so they can buy back shares to drive up share prices more.

Business course 101 now a days. Rich get richer. F___ the little guy.

The business guys just see the dollars,euros whatever. Screw society, we need our millions to survive.

Pandemic, cut production, close old refineries, ( we'll never need that capacity again will we?) War in the Ukraine, hey best opportunity to raise prices. ( Never mind it helps putin). Look at our balance sheet, we' re doing great.

Corportations gone wild. No government over sight (they pretty much control the governments now anyway).

Lets just blame the government, that's what we pay them for. Billions in first quarter profits, nothing to see here. Its all Bidan's fault.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-06-13/

"The tradeoff between rising payouts for just a single quarter and more spending on production has deprived the market of nearly half a million barrels of new oil daily, based on Reuters' estimates of potential output if half of existing investor payouts flowed to new oil and gas drilling."

"Companies returned some $9.51 billion to investors in the first quarter, according to energy consultancy Wood Mackenzie."

If these numbers are accurate, it shows that Wall Street could still make some good returns while drilling is accelerated (to an extent) to help cover the Russia gap. It really makes me feel jaded when I see Ukrainian flags being flown over here in the USA.

EA CO AS wrote:

Expensive fuel, just like inflation, hurts the poor far harder than anyone else. Do you want poor people to lack cheap, reliable means of getting to and from work, enjoying their leisure time, etc?

Do you need a full size SUV or truck to go to work?

Strato2 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Expensive fuel, just like inflation, hurts the poor far harder than anyone else. Do you want poor people to lack cheap, reliable means of getting to and from work, enjoying their leisure time, etc?

Do you need a full size SUV or truck to go to work?

If you’re in a blue collar profession such as construction?

Yes you do.

Exrampieyyz wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Why do you need cheap gas?.

Expensive fuel, just like inflation, hurts the poor far harder than anyone else. Do you want poor people to lack cheap, reliable means of getting to and from work, enjoying their leisure time, etc?

Expensive fuel also hurts by raising the prices of EVERYTHING else. Again, do you want to make poor people suffer?

High prices caused by lack of supply caused by corporations cutting production. Why not take some of the billions in profit to fix or construct new refineries.

We all know why, to drive up profits to drive up share prices so they can buy back shares to drive up share prices more.

Business course 101 now a days. Rich get richer. F___ the little guy.

The business guys just see the dollars,euros whatever. Screw society, we need our millions to survive.

Pandemic, cut production, close old refineries, ( we'll never need that capacity again will we?) War in the Ukraine, hey best opportunity to raise prices. ( Never mind it helps putin). Look at our balance sheet, we' re doing great.

Corportations gone wild. No government over sight (they pretty much control the governments now anyway).

Lets just blame the government, that's what we pay them for. Billions in first quarter profits, nothing to see here. Its all Bidan's fault.

Sigh ..... major oil companies couldn't give refineries away 3 years ago. Oil went negative in price. Delta had been trying to unload Trainer refinery for years because it was an drag on their earnings. There was a thread in Non-Aviation talking about the trillions of dollars of fossil fuel investments that would be written off by 2035 or so because no one would use oil. A certain political party ran with the platform of getting rid of fossil fuels. Oil price went negative during COVID. Hundreds of oil exploration firms went broke. Let's drill for oil off the Atlantic coast. Nope. Let's drill for gas in NY State, nope.

Yeah it's the oil companies.

Each citizen of North America and Europe and each company in those regions could have reduced or completely eliminated their fossil fuel consumption. The technology exists.

We reap what we have sowed. Time for Biden to show some guts and put a consumption tax on fossil fuels.

Strato2 wrote:

EA CO AS wrote:

Expensive fuel, just like inflation, hurts the poor far harder than anyone else. Do you want poor people to lack cheap, reliable means of getting to and from work, enjoying their leisure time, etc?

Do you need a full size SUV or truck to go to work?

If you need that truck or SUV for weekends/after hours but it’s your only vehicle, yes. Or if the work itself demands that capability.

Or would you tell people they should buy two cars, one for work and one for play?

MohawkWeekend wrote:

We reap what we have sowed. Time for Biden to show some guts and put a consumption tax on fossil fuels.

Exactly, give his voters what they asked for, higher gas prices and whatever inflation it causes. These high gas prices should bring a twinkle to his voters eyes, because he ran on the promise of reducing fossil fuel dependence and he is for the green new deal. The icing is people will be so broke they will depend even more on the government and this will empower the DNC even more.

Northern CA gas station manager fired after 69 cents-a-gallon mistake

https://abc30.com/gas-station-manager-f ... /11958150/

RANCHO CORDOVA, Calif. -- The manager who misplaced a decimal point at a Northern California gas station pricing premium gas for just 69 cents a gallon has now been fired.

The manager at the Shell gas station in Rancho Cordova, Calif., accidentally moved the decimal point to the wrong spot.

Hundreds of drivers ended up getting the cheap gas for several hours before the mistake was discovered costing the gas station $16,000.

afcjets wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

We reap what we have sowed. Time for Biden to show some guts and put a consumption tax on fossil fuels.

Exactly, give his voters what they asked for, higher gas prices and whatever inflation it causes. These high gas prices should bring a twinkle to his voters eyes, because he ran on the promise of reducing fossil fuel dependence and he is for the green new deal. The icing is people will be so broke they will depend even more on the government and this will empower the DNC even more.

Guess he (Biden) didn't get my message -
"White House takes new look at federal gas tax holiday" https://thehill.com/news/administration ... x-holiday/

"President Biden’s economic team has discussed the gas tax holiday recently and is expected to meet later this week for further talks."

Just like releasing oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, it won't be noticeable at the pump. But it will cause a $20 billion dollar shortfall in highway funding. Probably will also increase demand a bit.

FreequentFlier wrote:

If you’re in a blue collar profession such as construction?

Yes you do.

Work vehicles are one thing, but lots of full size pickups and SUVs out there will never see a work related object in their beds other than the odd tool for a weekend project. I've got friends that own pick ups, bed is empty 363 days out of the year, but they like them.

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Northern CA gas station manager fired after 69 cents-a-gallon mistake

https://abc30.com/gas-station-manager-f ... /11958150/

RANCHO CORDOVA, Calif. -- The manager who misplaced a decimal point at a Northern California gas station pricing premium gas for just 69 cents a gallon has now been fired.

The manager at the Shell gas station in Rancho Cordova, Calif., accidentally moved the decimal point to the wrong spot.

Hundreds of drivers ended up getting the cheap gas for several hours before the mistake was discovered costing the gas station $16,000.

With that specific number, who knows if it was really a "mistake."

cjg225 wrote:

DIRECTFLT wrote:

Northern CA gas station manager fired after 69 cents-a-gallon mistake

https://abc30.com/gas-station-manager-f ... /11958150/

RANCHO CORDOVA, Calif. -- The manager who misplaced a decimal point at a Northern California gas station pricing premium gas for just 69 cents a gallon has now been fired.

The manager at the Shell gas station in Rancho Cordova, Calif., accidentally moved the decimal point to the wrong spot.

Hundreds of drivers ended up getting the cheap gas for several hours before the mistake was discovered costing the gas station $16,000.

With that specific number, who knows if it was really a "mistake."

The problem was the decimal point was displaced. Depending on how that partcular system gets the input it might be an easy mistake to make.

An expensive one for sure, though.

I like Biden but he is looking for a scapegoat- https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/15/biden-t ... table.html

" Biden said that his administration is prepared to use “all reasonable and appropriate Federal Government tools and emergency authorities to increase refinery capacity and output in the near term.” Magic wand to build a refinery in a week or two?

"Biden noted in his letter that the refining shortage is a “global challenge and global concern,” with around 3 million barrels per day of global capacity offline since the start of the pandemic.

"Still, he pointed to the “unprecedented disconnect between the price of oil and the price of gas.”

As we used to say - No s**t Sherlock. Supply and Demand. What will he say when a hurricane hits Louisiana or Texas? The oil companies fault too? The Government screwed up by not maintaining a strategic reserve of gasoline, diesel and jet fuel.

The only US refinery that could be possibly brought back on line is the ex-Hess Refinery in the US Virgin Islands.
Right now the US EPA is holding that up because of the refineries poor environmental record

"Refinery on St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands" https://www.epa.gov/vi/refinery-st-croi ... in-islands

"EPA continues its work to protect the community near the refinery, now owned by the West Indies Petroleum Limited and Port Hamilton Refining and Transportation, LLLP"


"On the Island Where It Rained Oil, a Chance to Reimagine St. Croix" https://www.nrdc.org/stories/island-whe ... e-st-croix

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I like Biden but he is looking for a scapegoat- https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/15/biden-t ... table.html

" Biden said that his administration is prepared to use “all reasonable and appropriate Federal Government tools and emergency authorities to increase refinery capacity and output in the near term.” Magic wand to build a refinery in a week or two?

"Biden noted in his letter that the refining shortage is a “global challenge and global concern,” with around 3 million barrels per day of global capacity offline since the start of the pandemic.

"Still, he pointed to the “unprecedented disconnect between the price of oil and the price of gas.”

As we used to say - No s**t Sherlock. Supply and Demand. What will he say when a hurricane hits Louisiana or Texas? The oil companies fault too? The Government screwed up by not maintaining a strategic reserve of gasoline, diesel and jet fuel.

The only US refinery that could be possibly brought back on line is the ex-Hess Refinery in the US Virgin Islands.
Right now the US EPA is holding that up because of the refineries poor environmental record

"Refinery on St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands" https://www.epa.gov/vi/refinery-st-croi ... in-islands

"EPA continues its work to protect the community near the refinery, now owned by the West Indies Petroleum Limited and Port Hamilton Refining and Transportation, LLLP"


"On the Island Where It Rained Oil, a Chance to Reimagine St. Croix" https://www.nrdc.org/stories/island-whe ... e-st-croix

Well, the publicly-traded oil companies are making the concious decision to only listen to Wall Street:

https://www.ft.com/content/2d92c841-0a6 ... 994ac41f7d

The refinery issue is a tricky one though. Absolutely big screwup for everyone.

SEAorPWM wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I like Biden but he is looking for a scapegoat- https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/15/biden-t ... table.html

" Biden said that his administration is prepared to use “all reasonable and appropriate Federal Government tools and emergency authorities to increase refinery capacity and output in the near term.” Magic wand to build a refinery in a week or two?

"Biden noted in his letter that the refining shortage is a “global challenge and global concern,” with around 3 million barrels per day of global capacity offline since the start of the pandemic.

"Still, he pointed to the “unprecedented disconnect between the price of oil and the price of gas.”

As we used to say - No s**t Sherlock. Supply and Demand. What will he say when a hurricane hits Louisiana or Texas? The oil companies fault too? The Government screwed up by not maintaining a strategic reserve of gasoline, diesel and jet fuel.

The only US refinery that could be possibly brought back on line is the ex-Hess Refinery in the US Virgin Islands.
Right now the US EPA is holding that up because of the refineries poor environmental record

"Refinery on St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands" https://www.epa.gov/vi/refinery-st-croi ... in-islands

"EPA continues its work to protect the community near the refinery, now owned by the West Indies Petroleum Limited and Port Hamilton Refining and Transportation, LLLP"


"On the Island Where It Rained Oil, a Chance to Reimagine St. Croix" https://www.nrdc.org/stories/island-whe ... e-st-croix

Well, the publicly-traded oil companies are making the concious decision to only listen to Wall Street:

https://www.ft.com/content/2d92c841-0a6 ... 994ac41f7d

The refinery issue is a tricky one though. Absolutely big screwup for everyone.

How do we get more refinery capacity? More oil? It doesn't quite cost me a c-note to fill up, but soon it will.

Lightsaber

JJJ wrote:

The problem was the decimal point was displaced. Depending on how that partcular system gets the input it might be an easy mistake to make.

An expensive one for sure, though.

I think the joke may have passed you by on this one...?

You could see incremental refinery modifications to get say a a couple of thousand more barrels of output but most of the easy stuff has been done. Alot of the refinery cap-ex spending in recent years has been to simply make the cleaner fuels required - Ultra Low Sulfur diesel for OTR trucks and low sulfur fuel oil for ships.

No one is going to build a new refinery in the North America or Europe. Soon gasoline demand will begin to fall with the adoption of EV's. Who wants to be stuck with a multi billion dollar investment that only has a limited life span?
I've been preaching for quite sometime that what we are seeing now was going to happen but the banning of Russian oil (and gasoline/diesel) exports moved this date up.

The aviation industry is going to get hurt the worse. They are somehow hoping that some benevolent oil company will build multi billion dollar sustainable fuel refineries (and in a hurry) with prices similar to what they are paying now. Because as gasoline demand falls in the next few years, more refineries will close. And the remaining ones will charge even more for their products. And yet airlines are all talking about growth. They better start looking at buying oil refineries (like Delta did) to ensure someone is around to refine the fossil jet fuel they'll need for the next 28 years.