Gasoline prices, it hurts.

MohawkWeekend · Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:42 pm

I should add that the refineries that are still operating are at a greater and greater risk of catastrophic failures as they get older and older. Most are well maintained but no one replaces all the processing units or x-rays every foot of pipe. Off hand I can think of 3 recent major disaster - BP's Texas City refinery blast, the Philadelphia refinery blast and the fire at the refinery in Superior, WI. My understanding is everyone is running their refineries full out. That puts even more literal pressure on vessels and pipelines.

And this wicked heat wave portends IMO a warming Atlantic Ocean and Gulf of Mexico. Hurricane season could be just around the corner.

Aesma · Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:14 pm

Some years ago Total converted a refinery to biodiesel production from palm oil. It caused quite a stir, not because of the loss of oil refining capacity, but because palm oil is not exactly environmentally friendly (and is food).

There is research to make gasoline and diesel from other crops, including ones that wouldn't compete with food production.

I wonder if there couldn't be an incentive to build new refineries, able to refine oil, but also these alternatives ?

MohawkWeekend · Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:58 pm

In the States they looked for years for alternatives but no breakthroughs. So they still use corn. In Brazil I believe it's sugar cane.

I'm not a Chemical Engineer so I don't know if a dual feedstock (crude oil/palm/corn oil) refinery can work. Each process unit in an oil refinery is designed for certain pressures and temperatures some using catalysts to modify oil molecules into certain products. But Total's conversion means some units could still be used - the question being are they so modified that crude oil could no longer be refined in the same distillation tower (for example). I tend to think not because Total just runs one feedstock - they probably would have kept the capability to refine both if that were possible.

SEAorPWM · Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:01 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/16/environ ... rmits.html

While I agree with the premise, wouldn't this mainly be replacing the fossil fuels sold by Russia and OPEC autocracies?

william · Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:26 pm

SEAorPWM wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/16/environmental-groups-sue-biden-to-block-oil-and-gas-drilling-permits.html

While I agree with the premise, wouldn't this mainly be replacing the fossil fuels sold by Russia and OPEC autocracies?

Environmentalist are problem wondering what is the problem? They state higher gas prices are good, makes clean energy competitive. Problem is, it is political suicide.

SEAorPWM · Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:17 pm

william wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/16/environmental-groups-sue-biden-to-block-oil-and-gas-drilling-permits.html

While I agree with the premise, wouldn't this mainly be replacing the fossil fuels sold by Russia and OPEC autocracies?

Environmentalist are problem wondering what is the problem? They state higher gas prices are good, makes clean energy competitive. Problem is, it is political suicide.

They aren't helping themselves either by blocking every large-scale wind or solar farm in this country. Those kW we need to offset gas consumption aren't going to come from thin air - unless you build something.

:swirl:

GalaxyFlyer · Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:20 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
You could see incremental refinery modifications to get say a a couple of thousand more barrels of output but most of the easy stuff has been done. Alot of the refinery cap-ex spending in recent years has been to simply make the cleaner fuels required - Ultra Low Sulfur diesel for OTR trucks and low sulfur fuel oil for ships.

No one is going to build a new refinery in the North America or Europe. Soon gasoline demand will begin to fall with the adoption of EV's. Who wants to be stuck with a multi billion dollar investment that only has a limited life span?
I've been preaching for quite sometime that what we are seeing now was going to happen but the banning of Russian oil (and gasoline/diesel) exports moved this date up.

The aviation industry is going to get hurt the worse. They are somehow hoping that some benevolent oil company will build multi billion dollar sustainable fuel refineries (and in a hurry) with prices similar to what they are paying now. Because as gasoline demand falls in the next few years, more refineries will close. And the remaining ones will charge even more for their products. And yet airlines are all talking about growth. They better start looking at buying oil refineries (like Delta did) to ensure someone is around to refine the fossil jet fuel they'll need for the next 28 years.

There’s 400 million petroleum powered vehicles in the US, using petroleum isn’t going away any time soon, certainly not in the lifetime of more refineries—not before 2060. Realistically, petroleum is here to stay for a very long time.

MohawkWeekend · Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:53 pm

Agree. But the weakest margin refineries refineries will continue to shut down as gasoline demand declines.

Still would make sense for the the airlines to buy refineries (once things calm down) to ensure supply.

Will be interesting to see but it's possible that Delta's Trainer Refinery and fees from its affinity credit cards might make it's 2Q earnings amazing.

mxaxai · Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:36 am

While first-world countries complain about price hikes for fuel and food that leave less money to spend on other products, less wealthy countries like Sri Lanka, Nigeria and Egypt are facing massive shortages.

Sri Lanka only has enough fuel for about five more days, minister says
Sri Lanka's fuel stocks will last for about five more days, its power and energy minister said on Thursday, as the island nation awaits official confirmation from the Indian government for a new $500 million credit line for fuel.
The country of 22 million people is caught in its worst financial crisis in seven decades after its foreign exchange reserves dwindled to record lows, with dollars running out to pay for essential imports including food, medicine and fuel.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/16/asia ... index.html

Nigerian Fuel Crisis Could See Airlines Shut Down
According to the Airline Operators of Nigeria (AON), the cost of aviation fuel has risen to about N714 ($1.72) per liter, making it almost impossible for Nigerian airlines to sustain flight operations. ...
Unfortunately, the AON has noted that a committee set up to regulate aviation fuel prices can do little to nothing as the rising fuel costs result from foreign exchange rates and worldwide oil prices.

https://simpleflying.com/nigerian-airli ... el-crisis/

Egypt’s Prime Minister Urges Egyptians to Rationalize Food Consumption
Madbouly noted that the government is exerting tremendous effort to mitigate the crisis, and urged the Egyptian public to “rationalize” their food consumption in order to lessen the constraints and pressures that are imposed on the government, according to Ahram Online.

On the same day, Minister of Supply and Internal Trade Ali Moselhi noted that Egypt has strategic reserves of basic commodities, and that cooking oil, wheat, and sugar will be sufficient for the upcoming six months.

https://egyptianstreets.com/2022/06/16/ ... nsumption/

mxaxai · Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:51 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s 400 million petroleum powered vehicles in the US, using petroleum isn’t going away any time soon, certainly not in the lifetime of more refineries—not before 2060. Realistically, petroleum is here to stay for a very long time.

It's not going away but the industry is expected to start shrinking within a few years. Would you invest billions of dollars today if this surplus capacity will become unneccessary within the planned lifetime of the refinery?

There are about 290 million cars in the US. Annual new car sales have been around 15 to 20 million per year. Assuming that 90% of vehicles sold from 2030 onwards are electric or plug-in hybrids - which seems reasonable given the direction the industry is headed in - that would lead to a drastic decline in US fuel demand between then and 2050. Electric semis are coming as well.
Ships and aircraft only represent a small percentage of overall oil consumption (and also focus on middle & heavy distillates, road traffic is the main consumer of gasoline).

seb146 · Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:09 pm

"Breaking Bad" actor Dean Norris summed things up pretty well:

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/b ... capitalism

This is the free market doing what the free market does. Capitalism being capitalism. Those blaming Biden and Democrats and demanding a return to covid ways obviously hate capitalism.

ACDC8 · Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:31 pm

seb146 wrote:
"Breaking Bad" actor Dean Norris summed things up pretty well:

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/b ... capitalism

This is the free market doing what the free market does. Capitalism being capitalism. Those blaming Biden and Democrats and demanding a return to covid ways obviously hate capitalism.

Yup, capitalism at a global scale - welcome to the party folks :thumbsup:

WildcatYXU · Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:05 pm

Back to the numbers: I filled up the rental for $ 6.79 US/gal yesterday in San Luis Obispo, CA. Quite a difference compared to Fort Collins, Co few weeks ago. Heck, it is 15% more expensive than regular gasoline in London, ON.
It would really hurt if it would go from my pocket.

MohawkWeekend · Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:05 pm

American car buying habits from the 70's and 2008 are returning.

Just like then, big gas guzzlers are piling up on dealer lots and fuel efficient one are in short supply.

With sky-high gas prices, dealers suddenly have more of these types of vehicles to sell
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/with- ... =home-page
"
Inventory remains historically low, but compacts and hybrids are particularly tough to get, while the gas-guzzling SUVs and luxury vehicles are more abundant."

Unfortunately - the US manufactures have either quit making cars or dramatically reduced the numbers made. That includes the Korean companies too.

ACDC8 · Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:35 pm

Read an article today where gas station in BC who typically take in 10 cents per litre in profits are now taking in 20 cents per litre in profits - but yeah, its all Trudeau's fault :rotfl:

WildcatYXU · Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:49 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Read an article today where gas station in BC who typically take in 10 cents per litre in profits are now taking in 20 cents per litre in profits - but yeah, its all Trudeau's fault

Well, in Ontario he and his party are definitely responsible for 12.43c/liter.

ACDC8 · Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:56 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Well, in Ontario he and his party are definitely responsible for 12.43c/liter.

Here in Metro Vancouver, we pay the most fuel taxes of anywhere in North America, but they're not the reason why fuel prices have gone up almost a dollar per litre in a period of a couple of months.

While the taxes our Governments have put on fuel is a part of what we're paying at the pumps, pointing the finger at them in blame as the reason why fuel is so expensive now is just simply beyond silly.

Look at Germany, Government cut taxes by 30 cents, price of oil went down, price of gas went up even more and the oil companies and gas stations profits sky rocketed.

WildcatYXU · Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:23 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
WildcatYXU wrote:
Well, in Ontario he and his party are definitely responsible for 12.43c/liter.

Here in Metro Vancouver, we pay the most fuel taxes of anywhere in North America, but they're not the reason why fuel prices have gone up almost a dollar per litre in a period of a couple of months.

While the taxes our Governments have put on fuel is a part of what we're paying at the pumps, pointing the finger at them in blame as the reason why fuel is so expensive now is just simply beyond silly.

Look at Germany, Government cut taxes by 30 cents, price of oil went down, price of gas went up even more and the oil companies and gas stations profits sky rocketed.

It would be interesting to know why are gas prices now 25c/l higher than in July 2008. The crude oil peaked at 147 USD/barrel then. Now it costs approximately 110 USD/barrel. The Canadian peso to USD ratio is very similar. So what's going on?

MohawkWeekend · Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:37 pm

As been mentioned in previous posts - it's not the lacke of crude oil. Too many refineries in North America shut down or being converted to sustainable fuel production. Come-By-Chance refinery for example used to refine 130,000 bbls a day but is now out of service being reconfigured to produce biofuels.
Latin American refineries break down all the time and product is exported from the US to make up the difference. All this would have been ok (by the skin of the teeth) but now ban Russian gasoline imports and yep - demand will overtake supply and prices go up.

Once prices get high enough people buy fuel efficient vehicles, put the ski boat , RV and the 4 x 4 in the garage and demand falls. Prices go down. Happens every 10 to 15 years.

seb146 · Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:58 pm

I don't remember hearing any outrage over this. Oh, wait... I know why....

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-glob ... SKBN22C1V4
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/13/opec-cu ... ergin.html

The previous president demanded OPEC cut production. Which they gleefully did. And prices reflect that, as well as corporate greed. This is what happens when there is no transition team. All these fires need to be put out but it is impossible.

MohawkWeekend · Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:31 pm

Trump's pressure on the Saudi's was the RIGHT move. They could have crushed US shale production due to their lower cost of production compared to drilling in the States. We saved many oil field jobs and expertise that would have taken years to reconstitute. Remember there was so much oil that companies were being paid to take it off oil companies hands in the United States.

Much as I don't care for Trump - this was the smart thing to do. Think how much more we would be beholden to OPEC and the Russians if Trump hadn't done that.

MohawkWeekend · Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:50 am

Gas prices could reach ‘apocalyptic’ levels during hurricane season, oil expert warns
https://nypost.com/2022/06/24/gas-price ... il-expert/

Tropical Development Possible By Early Next Week Near Windward Islands; 'Bonnie' Could Then Become Caribbean Concernhttps://weather.com/storms/hurri ... r-antilles

ACDC8 · Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:55 am

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Gas prices could reach ‘apocalyptic’ levels during hurricane season, oil expert warns
https://nypost.com/2022/06/24/gas-price ... il-expert/

Tropical Development Possible By Early Next Week Near Windward Islands; 'Bonnie' Could Then Become Caribbean Concernhttps://weather.com/storms/hurri ... r-antilles

Of course they can - gotta keep those profits rolling in :rotfl:

MohawkWeekend · Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:48 pm

Never figured out why Canadian companies (or the Government) did not build a huge refinery in Alberta to process oil sands crude. But then I never could understand why Alaska didn't build an export refinery for the North Slope Oil. Yeah it gets cold up there but Superior WI and St. Paul, MN have refineries and it's pretty darn nasty there in the winter too.

The two biggest refineries under construction in the world are located in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

LCDFlight · Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:29 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
You could see incremental refinery modifications to get say a a couple of thousand more barrels of output but most of the easy stuff has been done. Alot of the refinery cap-ex spending in recent years has been to simply make the cleaner fuels required - Ultra Low Sulfur diesel for OTR trucks and low sulfur fuel oil for ships.

No one is going to build a new refinery in the North America or Europe. Soon gasoline demand will begin to fall with the adoption of EV's. Who wants to be stuck with a multi billion dollar investment that only has a limited life span?
I've been preaching for quite sometime that what we are seeing now was going to happen but the banning of Russian oil (and gasoline/diesel) exports moved this date up.

The aviation industry is going to get hurt the worse. They are somehow hoping that some benevolent oil company will build multi billion dollar sustainable fuel refineries (and in a hurry) with prices similar to what they are paying now. Because as gasoline demand falls in the next few years, more refineries will close. And the remaining ones will charge even more for their products. And yet airlines are all talking about growth. They better start looking at buying oil refineries (like Delta did) to ensure someone is around to refine the fossil jet fuel they'll need for the next 28 years.

There’s 400 million petroleum powered vehicles in the US, using petroleum isn’t going away any time soon, certainly not in the lifetime of more refineries—not before 2060. Realistically, petroleum is here to stay for a very long time.

I plan to buy an electric car at some point, in around 2040. I will probably buy a 2020 gasoline car in 2025 or so, and keep it 15 years. Then I will buy that 2035 model electric car when it is 5 years old. The average car customer is a lot like me. I represent the mainstream.

MohawkWeekend · Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:54 pm

A lot of industries and individuals are saying they can't or won't switch away from fossil fuels anytime soon. Especially the airlines. And by alot of consumers.

I'm just not sure what you are going to have to pay for that gasoline or jet fuel for the next 10 years.

ltbewr · Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:15 pm

Gasoline and diesel prices have come down in Northern NJ. As of today, 6/26, where I am (near Met Life Stadium) a number of stations are $4.69 - 4.75/Gallon mostly cash, some charge too. Checking Gas Buddy, prices in Edison, NJ are in the $4.60's or even as low as $4.55/gallon. Diesel has also come down to like $5.69/gallon. Guess slight decreases in demand due to high prices, adjustments by the oil companies and refiners, maybe slightly lower wholesales crude oil price.

seb146 · Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:58 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Trump's pressure on the Saudi's was the RIGHT move. They could have crushed US shale production due to their lower cost of production compared to drilling in the States. We saved many oil field jobs and expertise that would have taken years to reconstitute. Remember there was so much oil that companies were being paid to take it off oil companies hands in the United States.

Much as I don't care for Trump - this was the smart thing to do. Think how much more we would be beholden to OPEC and the Russians if Trump hadn't done that.

Shale production fell

https://www.yahoo.com/now/exxon-xom-see ... 01695.html
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/eme801/node/521

This worked out wonderfully for OPEC but not for the United States and the consumer. It was a horrific move. And we are seeing the end result at the pump.

MohawkWeekend · Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:23 pm

Which proved Trump right - low prices below the cost of production in the United States would have permanetly devastated the American shale oil industry. So even though shale production fell when prices were low, they quickly went back up when the market realized that OPEC wasn't going to be able to destroy the US's oil producers.

Oil is one of the most strategic assets a country can have. It won WWII for us and is right now keeping Putin's damage in reasonable check. And the Iranians and the Venezuelans too.

Trump's move was spot on. In fact, IMO President Biden should put a large tariff on all oil imported to the US except that from Canada. It would speed up the transition to low carbon future and protect us from a pretty dangerous world.

seb146 · Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:49 pm

MohawkWeekend wrote:
Which proved Trump right - low prices below the cost of production in the United States would have permanetly devastated the American shale oil industry. So even though shale production fell when prices were low, they quickly went back up when the market realized that OPEC wasn't going to be able to destroy the US's oil producers.

Oil is one of the most strategic assets a country can have. It won WWII for us and is right now keeping Putin's damage in reasonable check. And the Iranians and the Venezuelans too.

Trump's move was spot on. In fact, IMO President Biden should put a large tariff on all oil imported to the US except that from Canada. It would speed up the transition to low carbon future and protect us from a pretty dangerous world.

His move helped fuel this crisis. Cutting production means the United States can not add as much to our strategic reserves. It means we are still at the mercy of OPEC. Shale was a money pit. Oil companies figured that out and slowed production. That had nothing to do with helping America, but lining their own pockets with cash. All while we were/are at the mercy of OPEC and Saudi Arabia, begging them for oil. Now, Biden has to go to Saudi Arabia and try to reverse what MAGA did so we can lower gas prices and build back our strategic reserves.

But, I will say it did exactly what MAGA wanted it to do: get the base mad at Biden and Democrats.

MohawkWeekend · Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:23 pm

We are not at the mercy of OPEC . Between US and Canadian production and production potential, North America has plenty of crude oil. In fact, we are setting records exporting 3 million barrels of it a day.

"U.S. Gulf Coast Crude Exports Are Breaking Records"
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/U ... cords.html

Drilling activity is increasing in the US.
"U.S. Drillers Add 10 Oil Rigs As Permian Takes The Lead"
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/U ... -Lead.html
Those evil oil companies want to flood the market with oil. How dare they!

We (North America) have a shortage of refineries. Not oil. And what political party hates refineries?
"The fate of the troubled Philadelphia oil refinery is fracturing Democratic politics"
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelp ... 00212.html

casinterest · Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:31 pm

And today the hammer is starting to fall.
Oil plunged below 100 a barrel . First time since may.
With the Oil induced recession on the horizon, o

il has a new problem. They are probably already producing too much oil to meet demand.

https://www.barrons.com/articles/crude- ... 1657028193

Citi’s analysts see oil falling to $65, and could fall further to $45 a barrel by the end of 2023 if oil-exporting countries don’t intervene to reduce supply.

So now we are caught between the dichotomy of not enough oil for this summer, but too much oil for next year.
What it tells you is that the oil industry needed the time to ramp up production, and now that production is coming online either in time to rescue us from a recession, or too late and producing enough oil to cause a quick rebound?

MohawkWeekend · Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:25 pm

Time to refill the Strategic Petroleum Reserve if oil gets cheap again. And this time build some tank farms and store at least 100 million barrels of products. You can ship out product as it reaches a certain "age" but keep refilling it.

The lack of storage was partly caused by taxes being leveled on inventory - oil companies demolished alot of their tank farms because of that.

casinterest · Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:58 pm

Oil has plummeted back close to 90 bucks

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/crude-oil

For those keeping score the price has dropped almost 25% from the 120 dollar high.

Another Rate Hike may be coming from the Fed.

Larnaca · Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:30 pm

The longer term supply issues still remains intact though. The fed can only raise rates for so long. So while it may depress demand in the short term, the longer term trajectory is still higher.

Keep in mind Europe just stopped importing Russian oil. It takes time for that decision to hit the markets. Also, given the direction of the existing oil pipelines, it’s not as simple as redirecting oil bound to Europe to other countries.

Aesma · Thu Jul 14, 2022 4:54 pm

Also the rate hikes have made the Euro plunge to parity against the Dollar, from 1,2 to 1 one year ago, so the Euro countries aren't seeing that much of a plunge in imported oil yet, and everything else that is imported is more expensive...

casinterest · Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:38 pm

Aesma wrote:
Also the rate hikes have made the Euro plunge to parity against the Dollar, from 1,2 to 1 one year ago, so the Euro countries aren't seeing that much of a plunge in imported oil yet, and everything else that is imported is more expensive...

Everyone is getting rate hikes. The US has a .5-1% coming in two weeks. Russia is still selling to many countries, and it would seem that that oil is not really off the market. Other countries are ramping up production into what looks like a recession/slowdown coming, and it may cause oil and gas to plummet in the fall.

Aesma · Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:08 pm

Since getting oil shouldn't be a problem (at least if you can pay the price) I wonder if it's time for electricity providers to check/make investments so that their gas fired power plants can use oil. It should be possible for some of them.

casinterest · Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:17 pm

Aesma wrote:
Since getting oil shouldn't be a problem (at least if you can pay the price) I wonder if it's time for electricity providers to check/make investments so that their gas fired power plants can use oil. It should be possible for some of them.

It appears that Germany is going to fire up it's old coal plants.

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022 ... ia-ukraine

German legislators saw it differently. Last week, the country’s parliament, with the backing of members of the Green Party in the coalition government, passed emergency legislation to reopen coal-powered plants, as well as further measures to boost the production of renewable energy. There would be no effort to restart closed nuclear power plants, or even reconsider the timeline for closing the last active reactors.

“The gas storage tanks must be full by winter,” Robert Habeck, Germany’s economy minister and a member of the Green Party, said in June. “That is our top priority.”

Partially as a result of that prioritization, Germany — which has already seen carbon emissions rise over the past two years, missing its ambitious emissions targets — will emit even more carbon in 2022.

MohawkWeekend · Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:31 pm

Aesma wrote:
Since getting oil shouldn't be a problem (at least if you can pay the price) I wonder if it's time for electricity providers to check/make investments so that their gas fired power plants can use oil. It should be possible for some of them.

Thats a good idea as both a gas fired turbine or boiler can run on either. The problem for the gas turbine plants is that would put a strain on jet and diesel supply. Boilers can run both diesel or heavier fuel oils. The HFO and Intermediate Fuel Oils are still available but not nearly as much as they were the past. Those fuels are mainly used for ships and are being phased out for emission reasons. But it's a good option.

SRQLOT · Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:43 pm

casinterest wrote:
Oil has plummeted back close to 90 bucks

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/crude-oil

For those keeping score the price has dropped almost 25% from the 120 dollar high.

Another Rate Hike may be coming from the Fed.

Yet in Utah gas is still over $5.00. Been at $5.15 for almost a week now. Still better then the $5.29 I paid last 2 weeks.

casinterest · Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:08 pm

SRQLOT wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Oil has plummeted back close to 90 bucks

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/crude-oil

For those keeping score the price has dropped almost 25% from the 120 dollar high.

Another Rate Hike may be coming from the Fed.

Yet in Utah gas is still over $5.00. Been at $5.15 for almost a week now. Still better then the $5.29 I paid last 2 weeks.

The gas market always moves slower than the oil market. But prices are going down.

mxaxai · Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:43 pm

The 'small government' party in action again. This time trying to force towns and businesses to demolish EV chargers and add bureaucracy to their operation. Heck, they'd even be willing to spend additional state funds just to get rid of infrastructure. Throwing a temper tantrum just because other people get offered nice things as a form of advertisement. Things the bill proponents don't want to use anyway, mind you. But if I can't have it, then you shall have it neither.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/a-north-c ... ee-gas-too

GalaxyFlyer · Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:13 am

Why should people be subsidized in their choice of vehicle? Why is governments deciding who gets “free” transportation and others don’t. Small government means government doesn’t take from some citizens to give to others.

casinterest · Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:31 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why should people be subsidized in their choice of vehicle? Why is governments deciding who gets “free” transportation and others don’t. Small government means government doesn’t take from some citizens to give to others.

Because diverse energy vehicles increase competition, and put less demand on oil and foreign assembly of vehicles.

Government means nurturing the education and development of new technologies to keep the country competitive in the world economy.

mxaxai · Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:54 am

Exactly, why should the state government decide what incentives business owners and local communities can offer to their customers? It's like prohibiting complimentary extra cheese at a pizzeria unless you also offer extra salami and tuna.

In addition, every EV on the roads reduces fuel prices for everyone else. Most EVs actually charge at home for regular electricity prices, 'free' chargers generally exist just to lure in customers (though still a welcome benefit, of course).
This bill is useless both in terms of its micromanagement of business owners and the macroeconomic benefits of fewer ICE cars.

MohawkWeekend · Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:39 pm

Well now we know what the Saudi's think about Joe Biden -

"Speaking to CNBC’s Hadley Gamble on Friday, Prince Turki Al-Faisal said Biden was coming in as a “much diminished president” compared to when he was inaugurated in January 2021. “As an example, on energy issues, he came in with a policy to stop completely fossil fuel usage not only in the United States, but worldwide, and now he is finding himself having to rely on fossil fuels as a means of meeting the energy shortage that has come about, not only because of the Ukraine war, but also because of U.S. policy itself that shut down pipelines and stopped issuing ... discovery of oil on U.S. soil,” he said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/15/biden-a ... turki.html

Aesma · Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:17 pm

mxaxai wrote:
The 'small government' party in action again. This time trying to force towns and businesses to demolish EV chargers and add bureaucracy to their operation. Heck, they'd even be willing to spend additional state funds just to get rid of infrastructure. Throwing a temper tantrum just because other people get offered nice things as a form of advertisement. Things the bill proponents don't want to use anyway, mind you. But if I can't have it, then you shall have it neither.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/a-north-c ... ee-gas-too

You can' beat stupid. My thoughts were to just charge something, say 1 cent, and the law is defeated. The article suggests that.

Aesma · Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:19 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why should people be subsidized in their choice of vehicle? Why is governments deciding who gets “free” transportation and others don’t. Small government means government doesn’t take from some citizens to give to others.

Because ICE cars don't pay for the pollution they emit. So the next best thing is to incentivise not using ICE cars. If you would prefer the pollution was taxed, I'm all for it.

AirKevin · Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:16 pm

mxaxai wrote:
The 'small government' party in action again. This time trying to force towns and businesses to demolish EV chargers and add bureaucracy to their operation. Heck, they'd even be willing to spend additional state funds just to get rid of infrastructure. Throwing a temper tantrum just because other people get offered nice things as a form of advertisement. Things the bill proponents don't want to use anyway, mind you. But if I can't have it, then you shall have it neither.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/a-north-c ... ee-gas-too

With the charger, you just hook it up to electricity and forget about it. Where do they think the fuel is going to come from.

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