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Aaron747
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The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:05 am

This deserves its own thread and has understandably been overshadowed by COVID and now the Ukrainian crisis in the last year.

Unfortunately feckless and wishy-washy leadership by NCAA and other athletic organizations have led to this situation where highly competitive female athletes are being pushed aside by trans athletes who insist on being in the same competitive category. This just came to a head at Penn, where Lia Thomas obviously placed first in the national championship this week.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... atform=amp

This is absolutely nuts. Protection against discrimination in the workplace or school is one thing, but this is quite another. Athletic organizations need to ante up and require that trans athletes either compete in their biological category or compete against each other in their own. The entire purpose of separation by gender in sports is preserving competitiveness. Most reasonable people can see the current situation is illogical and harmful.
 
NIKV69
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:32 am

It's a sad state of affairs but at this point the only thing that will cut any wood is a total boycott by the female swimmers until this gets fixed.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:55 am

Newark727 wrote:
Trans athletes are something that Republican state legislatures really want us to care about, but let's look at the list of other things Republican state legislatures really want us to care about:
-Voter fraud
-Anchor babies
-Critical race theory
-Pretending to small children that Santa Claus is real and gay people aren't

...yeah, I think society will survive. Looking forward to plenty of gross anti-trans takes in this thread, though.


All that granted and par for the course. I’m thinking about the affected athletes here - several in my family so have a personal interest.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:42 am

Aaron747 wrote:

This is absolutely nuts. Protection against discrimination in the workplace or school is one thing, but this is quite another. Athletic organizations need to ante up and require that trans athletes either compete in their biological category or compete against each other in their own. The entire purpose of separation by gender in sports is preserving competitiveness. Most reasonable people can see the current situation is illogical and harmful.



I do not see anything to disagree with there... But a thing I would be curious to know is what is the incidence of direction? I get the issue of male born Trans competing in Female sports. But what is the reciprocating percentage of Female born Trans competing in Male sports? I ask because I do not know the percentages, but from everything I have been able to gather, the controversy seems to rest almost with entirely with the former.



And though I think you are mainly right here, the other problem I have with this issue is...

Newark727 wrote:
Trans athletes are something that Republican state legislatures really want us to care about, but let's look at the list of other things Republican state legislatures really want us to care about:
-Voter fraud
-Anchor babies
-Critical race theory
-Pretending to small children that Santa Claus is real and gay people aren't

...yeah, I think society will survive. Looking forward to plenty of gross anti-trans takes in this thread, though.



... this problem. It is difficult for me to get behind an issue when its most vocal proponents are horrible people. While I agree that something should be done about the issue, I also note that we have been getting better at starving out the oxygen from the deplorables category lately. The last thing we should be doing is taking a boot off that particular neck.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:34 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
And though I think you are mainly right here, the other problem I have with this issue is...

Newark727 wrote:
Trans athletes are something that Republican state legislatures really want us to care about, but let's look at the list of other things Republican state legislatures really want us to care about:
-Voter fraud
-Anchor babies
-Critical race theory
-Pretending to small children that Santa Claus is real and gay people aren't

...yeah, I think society will survive. Looking forward to plenty of gross anti-trans takes in this thread, though.



... this problem. It is difficult for me to get behind an issue when its most vocal proponents are horrible people. While I agree that something should be done about the issue, I also note that we have been getting better at starving out the oxygen from the deplorables category lately. The last thing we should be doing is taking a boot off that particular neck.


Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:37 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?



Because there are people/interests for whom this issue is only a part of a larger and far more toxic agenda. Having a conscience does not allow me to give oxygen to that sort.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:44 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?



Because there are people/interests for whom this issue is only a part of a larger and far more toxic agenda. Having a conscience does not allow me to give oxygen to that sort.


I hope as a society reasonable people can walk and chew gum at the same time. I think we can call those people ridiculous while also not encouraging hard-working female athletes to quit because organizations are failing to provide a level playing field.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:13 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
And though I think you are mainly right here, the other problem I have with this issue is...

Newark727 wrote:
Trans athletes are something that Republican state legislatures really want us to care about, but let's look at the list of other things Republican state legislatures really want us to care about:
-Voter fraud
-Anchor babies
-Critical race theory
-Pretending to small children that Santa Claus is real and gay people aren't

...yeah, I think society will survive. Looking forward to plenty of gross anti-trans takes in this thread, though.



... this problem. It is difficult for me to get behind an issue when its most vocal proponents are horrible people. While I agree that something should be done about the issue, I also note that we have been getting better at starving out the oxygen from the deplorables category lately. The last thing we should be doing is taking a boot off that particular neck.


Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?


People only seem to be concerned when it is a male in the female ranks. Recall the whole controversy over anti-trans bathroom bills was because men will simply put on a dress, waltz into a women's rest room, and rape because that happens, according to supporters of these anti-trans bills. When a woman competes in a male dominated sport, it is "aw, gee... a feel good story!" or "she's just trying to live her dream!" Well, why can't a trans woman live her dream of being a woman?

It seems that people who are offended by trans people are the ones who simply think a guy puts on a dress or bikini and instant trans. It never ever works that way. There is actual science behind it. Medications and surgeries and mental health counseling and disownment by loved ones. I don't know what the short term fix is, but the long term fix is education, which some people simply do not want.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:44 am

seb146 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
And though I think you are mainly right here, the other problem I have with this issue is...




... this problem. It is difficult for me to get behind an issue when its most vocal proponents are horrible people. While I agree that something should be done about the issue, I also note that we have been getting better at starving out the oxygen from the deplorables category lately. The last thing we should be doing is taking a boot off that particular neck.


Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?


People only seem to be concerned when it is a male in the female ranks. Recall the whole controversy over anti-trans bathroom bills was because men will simply put on a dress, waltz into a women's rest room, and rape because that happens, according to supporters of these anti-trans bills. When a woman competes in a male dominated sport, it is "aw, gee... a feel good story!" or "she's just trying to live her dream!" Well, why can't a trans woman live her dream of being a woman?

It seems that people who are offended by trans people are the ones who simply think a guy puts on a dress or bikini and instant trans. It never ever works that way. There is actual science behind it. Medications and surgeries and mental health counseling and disownment by loved ones. I don't know what the short term fix is, but the long term fix is education, which some people simply do not want.


Sure, but the issue here *in this specific case* is not anti-trans bills. If you look at this issue from the perspective of a woman, this is men taking something away from them that is *theirs*, yet again.

Also when women have tried competing in male sports, it is lauded because of the level of challenge involved and risk assumed. There is an expectation of failure because of inherent physical advantages. The reverse is simply not true with a 6’3 swimmer with a man’s cardiovascular capacity who competes amongst women.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:01 am

I suppose it’s because I’m not particularly competitive and into sports, but I can’t imagine being too excited winning in her case. This reminds me of how much better the basketball Dream Team was during the Olympics. Being at such an advantage can’t be too gratifying
 
Redd
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:09 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Sure, but the issue here *in this specific case* is not anti-trans bills. If you look at this issue from the perspective of a woman, this is men taking something away from them that is *theirs*, yet again.




Absolutely. It's the pinnacle of misogyny. Guy decides he's a woman, and now competes with women. My buddy made a good joke recently: "Men are so damn good at everything that we're even dominating women's sports".
 
bennett123
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:30 am

I suggest that we start from the point of why do men and women to race against each other.

The next question is about trans people. To what extent do they retain the characteristics of their gender, and at what stage do we conclude that they have transitioned.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:01 am

bennett123 wrote:
I suggest that we start from the point of why do men and women to race against each other.

The next question is about trans people. To what extent do they retain the characteristics of their gender, and at what stage do we conclude that they have transitioned.


Those questions are both important and not. Legally, at least in the US, the Civil Rights and Equal Employment Opportunity Acts provide sweeping protections for all citizens, and for trans people, it has been affirmed in courts that they cannot be discriminated against on the basis of lifestyle or identification. But employment and housing access are arguably essential protections. And the scientific basis of current knowledge on psychology and transgenderism is sufficient to support full recognition in any health and social care context. Outside of those considerations, I am not sure the staging of transition is really relevant to anything. It would be different on a case by case basis anyhow depending on one's life circumstances. Caitlyn Jenner is certainly not in the same life station as a young POC transitioning in the ghetto, resorting to prostitution to get by. At least to me, for totally voluntary activities - like team sports - the status of transition doesn't matter because the physical advantage is a given.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:31 am

We all know the solution will be a trans category.

The only sport I watch is mixed, but women never make it (Formula 1). I'm not even sure men have a physical advantage, these days the smaller and lighter you are the better, and the cars have everything assisted or automatic so no need for crazy strength. I think the problem is getting sponsoring, persevere through the various junior categories, having a highly competitive spirit...

In a more "physical oriented" sport like swimming, it's obvious that women and men can't compete together. You know who can't compete either ? People of small or even average size. If you're a man 1,75m tall, you're not becoming a swimming champion. A 1,65m woman, same.
 
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:42 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Most reasonable people can see the current situation is illogical and harmful.

The only problem is that the most vocal are not.

Aesma wrote:
We all know the solution will be a trans category.

It's the obvious solution. I can't see how this can be a problem, given that diversity is so celebrated.
 
AeroVega
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:04 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?


Because there are people/interests for whom this issue is only a part of a larger and far more toxic agenda. Having a conscience does not allow me to give oxygen to that sort.


All the more reason to fix the problem and take the issue off their agenda.
 
AeroVega
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:18 am

seb146 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
And though I think you are mainly right here, the other problem I have with this issue is...




... this problem. It is difficult for me to get behind an issue when its most vocal proponents are horrible people. While I agree that something should be done about the issue, I also note that we have been getting better at starving out the oxygen from the deplorables category lately. The last thing we should be doing is taking a boot off that particular neck.


Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?


I don't know what the short term fix is, but the long term fix is education, which some people simply do not want.


How is education going to help female athletes competing against biological men? Because that's the topic of this thread. If LBGT activists want to be taken seriously then they should just concede that this is a problem that needs to be fixed.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:51 am

Either sex matters in a sport or it doesn’t…if it does the she should be banned as competing as a woman if it does not matter then the differentiation between men and women should be scrapped. There are sports already that do this.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
pune
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:45 pm

Ideally, there should be a contingent of tans-athletes in all sports of each country for whatever sports they desire. But this I guess is a long road as it would require changes for e.g. in Olympics or any other competitive sport/event. Add to that the cultural sensitivity required for the same. From what little I have read, many trans-people are confused although they do have some closer attachment/identification with one of the two genders. I read a few memoirs or whatever they called and seems it takes a decade or more for them to choose one of the genders and then again there are stories of some of them making the wrong choice and they regret it.

And this emotional upheaval is not felt by the individuals themselves but also their loved ones as they too have to accept the changes. Most people even today have a hard time accepting a trans-child. Star Trek: Discovery for e.g. did attempt an outreach on that topic and perhaps on some levels even became successful.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:49 pm

I think the NCAA did a great disservice to collegiate athletics with their competition rules. There are separate events for men and women for a reason.
Transgender athletes need to compete based on biology, not gender until the NCAA sees fit to create a new classification of events in between where biological males would still have a greater advantage.
 
ltbewr
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:57 pm

In the 1970's and 1980's, East Germany and other countries was so into showing how great their country was by basically made some female athletes, in particular swimming, into trans males by use of powerful drugs, including steroids. https://globalsportmatters.com/health/2 ... ed-taking/
We have also seen in more recent years of female athletes having genetic conditions that make more like men in appearances and athletic performance in woman's events.
A mix of fear by colleges, the NCAA and other others sports organizations, athletes themselves of offending GLTBQ+ persons, anti-discrimination laws, health privacy laws, faith beliefs, competition conflicts, political positions, lawsuits, are making the situation as to trans athletes much more difficult to deal with. There needs to be more constructive talk, not just of spewing of hate toward trans athletes.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:19 pm

I mentioned size earlier but in some sports, there are categories by weight. In combat sports. That could help in that case, maybe.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?



Because there are people/interests for whom this issue is only a part of a larger and far more toxic agenda. Having a conscience does not allow me to give oxygen to that sort.


I hope as a society reasonable people can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Have you been paying attention for the past two years (at least).
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:37 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:


Because there are people/interests for whom this issue is only a part of a larger and far more toxic agenda. Having a conscience does not allow me to give oxygen to that sort.


I hope as a society reasonable people can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Have you been paying attention for the past two years (at least).


Oh yes. Hence the qualifier 'reasonable people' ;)
 
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seb146
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:56 pm

AeroVega wrote:
seb146 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?


I don't know what the short term fix is, but the long term fix is education, which some people simply do not want.


How is education going to help female athletes competing against biological men? Because that's the topic of this thread. If LBGT activists want to be taken seriously then they should just concede that this is a problem that needs to be fixed.


When a person is on hormone replacement, they are taking doses of a hormone. It is used, also, for menopausal women.

Again: the "problem" that needs to be fixed is education. To teach people that there are people out there who are not the biology they were born with. Several peer reviewed papers have been written on this very subject.
 
QF7
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
Again: the "problem" that needs to be fixed is education. To teach people that there are people out there who are not the biology they were born with.


Assuming that’s true (I suspect a majority of people are already “educated” enough to acknowledge that) you still have the problem of fairness to people who ARE the biology they were born with.

Regardless of identity you have people whose biology makes them bigger, faster, stronger competing against people without those biological advantages, which is the whole reason girls sports are separated from boys sports to start with.
 
afcjets
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:13 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?

Because there are people/interests for whom this issue is only a part of a larger and far more toxic agenda. Having a conscience does not allow me to give oxygen to that sort.


I just love this story. There are consequences for denying science and biology. I especially like how he grins in all the photos and how he still looks like a dude.
 
AeroVega
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:47 pm

seb146 wrote:
Again: the "problem" that needs to be fixed is education.


No, that is not the problem that this thread is about.

The problem that this thread is about is that female sports is being ruined by letting transgender men compete as women.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:11 pm

afcjets wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Why bother who the proponent is if the issue is legitimate?

Because there are people/interests for whom this issue is only a part of a larger and far more toxic agenda. Having a conscience does not allow me to give oxygen to that sort.


I just love this story. There are consequences for denying science and biology. I especially like how he grins in all the photos and how he still looks like a dude.


Absolutely. Hence why it’s ridiculous to consider the Bible as a valid story of creation
 
bennett123
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:00 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I suggest that we start from the point of why do men and women to race against each other.

The next question is about trans people. To what extent do they retain the characteristics of their gender, and at what stage do we conclude that they have transitioned.


Those questions are both important and not. Legally, at least in the US, the Civil Rights and Equal Employment Opportunity Acts provide sweeping protections for all citizens, and for trans people, it has been affirmed in courts that they cannot be discriminated against on the basis of lifestyle or identification. But employment and housing access are arguably essential protections. And the scientific basis of current knowledge on psychology and transgenderism is sufficient to support full recognition in any health and social care context. Outside of those considerations, I am not sure the staging of transition is really relevant to anything. It would be different on a case by case basis anyhow depending on one's life circumstances. Caitlyn Jenner is certainly not in the same life station as a young POC transitioning in the ghetto, resorting to prostitution to get by. At least to me, for totally voluntary activities - like team sports - the status of transition doesn't matter because the physical advantage is a given.


My understanding is that the majority world records for men exceed the world record for women. Meaning that if men and women raced against each other then most champions would be men.

My second point is ask if a person is born male and transitions to female is that advantage lost or not. If it is lost, is it only lost when the transition is completed or progressively during transition.

Is there any research on this subject?.
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:03 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
This deserves its own thread and has understandably been overshadowed by COVID and now the Ukrainian crisis in the last year.

Unfortunately feckless and wishy-washy leadership by NCAA and other athletic organizations have led to this situation where highly competitive female athletes are being pushed aside by trans athletes who insist on being in the same competitive category. This just came to a head at Penn, where Lia Thomas obviously placed first in the national championship this week.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... atform=amp

This is absolutely nuts. Protection against discrimination in the workplace or school is one thing, but this is quite another. Athletic organizations need to ante up and require that trans athletes either compete in their biological category or compete against each other in their own. The entire purpose of separation by gender in sports is preserving competitiveness. Most reasonable people can see the current situation is illogical and harmful.

This entire post is violence against the trans community. Your argument to invalidate Lia being able to live her life as anything other than the woman she is amounts to erasing her identity as well as that of all trans people. This is the reason the suicide rate for trans teens is as high as it is, an epidemic of mental distress perpetuated by posts like yours. /s

^I think I adequately channeled the standard campus activist take there. Unfortunately the Overton Window on this issue has been pushed so far to the left that I don’t think anything will be done until gendered competitive sports becomes seriously threatened or crumbles completely. There’s absolutely no doubt that the vast majority, left and right, find the notion of M2F trans athletes fairly competing with CIS female athletes absurd. The right decries it for obvious reasons, but the Left won’t do a thing about it for fear of being lumped with the right or just generally being deplatformed and shamed by the activist crowd. Thus it’ll remain a partisan issue until either the trans community itself reigns this in, or the institution of gendered sports faces imminent collapse.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:33 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This deserves its own thread and has understandably been overshadowed by COVID and now the Ukrainian crisis in the last year.

Unfortunately feckless and wishy-washy leadership by NCAA and other athletic organizations have led to this situation where highly competitive female athletes are being pushed aside by trans athletes who insist on being in the same competitive category. This just came to a head at Penn, where Lia Thomas obviously placed first in the national championship this week.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... atform=amp

This is absolutely nuts. Protection against discrimination in the workplace or school is one thing, but this is quite another. Athletic organizations need to ante up and require that trans athletes either compete in their biological category or compete against each other in their own. The entire purpose of separation by gender in sports is preserving competitiveness. Most reasonable people can see the current situation is illogical and harmful.

This entire post is violence against the trans community. Your argument to invalidate Lia being able to live her life as anything other than the woman she is amounts to erasing her identity as well as that of all trans people. This is the reason the suicide rate for trans teens is as high as it is, an epidemic of mental distress perpetuated by posts like yours. /s

^I think I adequately channeled the standard campus activist take there. Unfortunately the Overton Window on this issue has been pushed so far to the left that I don’t think anything will be done until gendered competitive sports becomes seriously threatened or crumbles completely. There’s absolutely no doubt that the vast majority, left and right, find the notion of M2F trans athletes fairly competing with CIS female athletes absurd. The right decries it for obvious reasons, but the Left won’t do a thing about it for fear of being lumped with the right or just generally being deplatformed and shamed by the activist crowd. Thus it’ll remain a partisan issue until either the trans community itself reigns this in, or the institution of gendered sports faces imminent collapse.


I wholeheartedly agree with you! The failure is to see that athletic performance is driven significantly by sex and then allowing entry by gender is a quite frankly ridiculous category error.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting someone can’t live their life how they choose is missing the point. I can’t life my life as a billionaire because I am not one, if you your sex is male you shouldn’t be able to compete as female sex, because you aren’t.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
NIKV69
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:25 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

... this problem. It is difficult for me to get behind an issue when its most vocal proponents are horrible people. While I agree that something should be done about the issue, I also note that we have been getting better at starving out the oxygen from the deplorables category lately. The last thing we should be doing is taking a boot off that particular neck.


How do you know they are horrible people? This is whataboutism at it's worst. If you feel that something should be done than your other feelings that seem partisan driven have no place in the discussion. This story is how female sports can be destroyed forever not tribalism.
 
afcjets
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:53 am

flipdewaf wrote:
I don’t think anyone is suggesting someone can’t live their life how they choose is missing the point. I can’t life my life as a billionaire because I am not one, if you your sex is male you shouldn’t be able to compete as female sex, because you aren’t.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


IMO the difference between the left and the right is the right will defend your individual right to play (and speak) make believe however you like. The left might or might not, but when they do, they will demand everyone else play along too.
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:33 am

afcjets wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I don’t think anyone is suggesting someone can’t live their life how they choose is missing the point. I can’t life my life as a billionaire because I am not one, if you your sex is male you shouldn’t be able to compete as female sex, because you aren’t.

Fred


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IMO the difference between the left and the right is the right will defend your individual right to play (and speak) make believe however you like. The left might or might not, but when they do, they will demand everyone else play along too.

My problem with the Right however is that they are SO reactionary. They glom onto an idea/concern that may have some merit, but then go full bore until they meet the far left…horseshoe theory. Their response unfortunately…at least lately, has not been “laissez faire, leave you alone to play” but in fact more government involvement and control, just in a flavor they happen to agree with (ex. Florida and their anti-anti-mandates, and Texas with their recent trans legislation).
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:47 am

afcjets wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I don’t think anyone is suggesting someone can’t live their life how they choose is missing the point. I can’t life my life as a billionaire because I am not one, if you your sex is male you shouldn’t be able to compete as female sex, because you aren’t.

Fred


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IMO the difference between the left and the right is the right will defend your individual right to play (and speak) make believe however you like. The left might or might not, but when they do, they will demand everyone else play along too.


Actually no, as flyguy indicated, this is only true until they are ready to enact laws that get rid of whatever is making them uncomfortable, whether that be gay adoption, marriage, abortion, two-sided discussions of history, what have you. Libertarians the majority on the right are not.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:52 am

flyguy89 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This deserves its own thread and has understandably been overshadowed by COVID and now the Ukrainian crisis in the last year.

Unfortunately feckless and wishy-washy leadership by NCAA and other athletic organizations have led to this situation where highly competitive female athletes are being pushed aside by trans athletes who insist on being in the same competitive category. This just came to a head at Penn, where Lia Thomas obviously placed first in the national championship this week.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... atform=amp

This is absolutely nuts. Protection against discrimination in the workplace or school is one thing, but this is quite another. Athletic organizations need to ante up and require that trans athletes either compete in their biological category or compete against each other in their own. The entire purpose of separation by gender in sports is preserving competitiveness. Most reasonable people can see the current situation is illogical and harmful.

This entire post is violence against the trans community. Your argument to invalidate Lia being able to live her life as anything other than the woman she is amounts to erasing her identity as well as that of all trans people. This is the reason the suicide rate for trans teens is as high as it is, an epidemic of mental distress perpetuated by posts like yours. /s

^I think I adequately channeled the standard campus activist take there. Unfortunately the Overton Window on this issue has been pushed so far to the left that I don’t think anything will be done until gendered competitive sports becomes seriously threatened or crumbles completely. There’s absolutely no doubt that the vast majority, left and right, find the notion of M2F trans athletes fairly competing with CIS female athletes absurd. The right decries it for obvious reasons, but the Left won’t do a thing about it for fear of being lumped with the right or just generally being deplatformed and shamed by the activist crowd. Thus it’ll remain a partisan issue until either the trans community itself reigns this in, or the institution of gendered sports faces imminent collapse.


My response to the campus activist is simple: learn to listen, because I'm going to ask you a question. Don't you think women are tired of men taking things away from them? That's what this particular topic centers on. Lia can live her life however she sees fit, I never said she can't. And I completely support legal protections for any future endeavors in employment, housing etc because there are still some barriers there. But in the *voluntary* arena of female competitive sports, her inclusion is harmful to other participants. Inclusion is about adding value, not toppling the playing field entirely, as she is doing.
 
afcjets
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:19 am

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I don’t think anyone is suggesting someone can’t live their life how they choose is missing the point. I can’t life my life as a billionaire because I am not one, if you your sex is male you shouldn’t be able to compete as female sex, because you aren’t.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


IMO the difference between the left and the right is the right will defend your individual right to play (and speak) make believe however you like. The left might or might not, but when they do, they will demand everyone else play along too.


Actually no, as flyguy indicated, this is only true until they are ready to enact laws that get rid of whatever is making them uncomfortable, whether that be gay adoption, marriage, abortion, two-sided discussions of history, what have you. Libertarians the majority on the right are not.


Gay adoption and abortion are hardly make believe.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:47 am

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:

IMO the difference between the left and the right is the right will defend your individual right to play (and speak) make believe however you like. The left might or might not, but when they do, they will demand everyone else play along too.


Actually no, as flyguy indicated, this is only true until they are ready to enact laws that get rid of whatever is making them uncomfortable, whether that be gay adoption, marriage, abortion, two-sided discussions of history, what have you. Libertarians the majority on the right are not.


Gay adoption and abortion are hardly make believe.


Yeah well guess what? Their impact on the lives of people wanting to ban them *are* make believe, so there's the rub.
 
afcjets
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:57 am

Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Actually no, as flyguy indicated, this is only true until they are ready to enact laws that get rid of whatever is making them uncomfortable, whether that be gay adoption, marriage, abortion, two-sided discussions of history, what have you. Libertarians the majority on the right are not.


Gay adoption and abortion are hardly make believe.


Yeah well guess what? They don't affect the lives of the people trying to ban them at all, so there's the rub.


That wasn't the point I made, they still affect the lives of others though obviously, but that's another topic. I find it interesting you call Lia she, yet you don't want her competing in women's sports.
 
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:41 am

afcjets wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
afcjets wrote:

Gay adoption and abortion are hardly make believe.


Yeah well guess what? They don't affect the lives of the people trying to ban them at all, so there's the rub.


That wasn't the point I made, they still affect the lives of others though obviously, but that's another topic. I find it interesting you call Lia she, yet you don't want her competing in women's sports.


It's not the point you made, but it's the original point as to why those people are so toxic. They proclaim to be for individual freedom but want to control the lives of others, which is plain silly.

There's nothing interesting about referring to Lia as she - if that's what someone prefers, it's basic decency to respect their wishes. Don't foist your ideas on others because everyone's different, and all that jazz good parents teach their kids. The reasons for not wanting her competing were clearly stated upthread. 'She' being her desired identity has nothing to do with the physical advantage she unfairly has over competitors due to biology.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:15 am

afcjets wrote:
I find it interesting you call Lia she, yet you don't want her competing in women's sports.


The pronouns use is to do with gender the athletic ability is due to sex. It’s pretty basic.

I wasn’t going to get in to “the left does this and the right does that” stuff but I now feel compelled for some reason. Whilst not an all out 100% thing then tendencies appear to be that.

The individual freedom loving right don’t want to allow someone to choose how the identify, they think you can’t choose your Gender…you can.

The truth and fact loving left think that you can choose your sex, they you can choose to change biology… you can’t.

One end of the spectrum thinks or can’t choose anything, the other thinks you can choose everything. Both are wrong.

The issue here is that the sporting bodies bowed to left wing pressure early without actually understanding the issue and now they will either have to reverse or go the whole hog and remove the differing sexes from sport. They will (and already are) do women a disservice.

Fred
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:42 am

Aaron747 wrote:
This deserves its own thread and has understandably been overshadowed by COVID and now the Ukrainian crisis in the last year.

Unfortunately feckless and wishy-washy leadership by NCAA and other athletic organizations have led to this situation where highly competitive female athletes are being pushed aside by trans athletes who insist on being in the same competitive category. This just came to a head at Penn, where Lia Thomas obviously placed first in the national championship this week.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... atform=amp

This is absolutely nuts. Protection against discrimination in the workplace or school is one thing, but this is quite another. Athletic organizations need to ante up and require that trans athletes either compete in their biological category or compete against each other in their own. The entire purpose of separation by gender in sports is preserving competitiveness. Most reasonable people can see the current situation is illogical and harmful.


You missed where she still has a penis and insists on using the female changing rooms.

EXCLUSIVE: 'We're uncomfortable in our own locker room.' Lia Thomas' UPenn teammate tells how the trans swimmer doesn't always cover up her male genitals when changing and their concerns go ignored by their coach
    One of Lia Thomas' teammates tells DailyMail.com they feel uncomfortable sharing a locker room with the transgender UPenn swimmer
    'It's definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,' she said
    The swimmer said that multiple teammates have raised their concerns with their coach, trying to get Thomas ousted from the female locker room
    'We were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there's nothing we can do about it,' she said
    The teammate added that Thomas appears to enjoy all the attention and said it affects the team more than it does her

Thomas previously competed on UPenn men's swim team for three years as Will before transitioning in 2019


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -room.html
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:51 am

seb146 wrote:
It seems that people who are offended by trans people are the ones who simply think a guy puts on a dress or bikini and instant trans. It never ever works that way. There is actual science behind it. Medications and surgeries and mental health counseling and disownment by loved ones. I don't know what the short term fix is, but the long term fix is education, which some people simply do not want.


That essentially what this person has done, she was an average male swimmer and now is a very good female swimmer, she still has all her male body parts, whats is fair about that?

In Norway I just need to fill out some paperwork and I can change gender, no doctors evaluation needed.

From my point of view if the person transitioned before puberty then fair go they haven't benefited from male puberty so let them play, if they transition after puberty like this person, tough luck you're not competing with your chosen gender.
 
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:27 pm

Aesma wrote:
We all know the solution will be a trans category.

The only sport I watch is mixed, but women never make it (Formula 1). I'm not even sure men have a physical advantage, these days the smaller and lighter you are the better, and the cars have everything assisted or automatic so no need for crazy strength. I think the problem is getting sponsoring, persevere through the various junior categories, having a highly competitive spirit...

In a more "physical oriented" sport like swimming, it's obvious that women and men can't compete together. You know who can't compete either ? People of small or even average size. If you're a man 1,75m tall, you're not becoming a swimming champion. A 1,65m woman, same.


Formula 1 is a physical sport, males of the same size and weight as females will generally have more muscle, formula 1 is incredibly hard on a persons neck and upper body, men have stronger necks and shoulders, that gives them a big advantage. Females have gotten in F1 but that about all she wrote.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:42 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I suggest that we start from the point of why do men and women to race against each other.

The next question is about trans people. To what extent do they retain the characteristics of their gender, and at what stage do we conclude that they have transitioned.


If the person transitioned before puberty then I don't think there is much of an issue, let them play, if they transitioned after puberty then they should have to undergo complete gender reassignment, this would discourage people like this person who I'm reasonably well convinced has only transitioned for sports purposes.
 
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:54 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
This deserves its own thread and has understandably been overshadowed by COVID and now the Ukrainian crisis in the last year.

Unfortunately feckless and wishy-washy leadership by NCAA and other athletic organizations have led to this situation where highly competitive female athletes are being pushed aside by trans athletes who insist on being in the same competitive category. This just came to a head at Penn, where Lia Thomas obviously placed first in the national championship this week.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... atform=amp

This is absolutely nuts. Protection against discrimination in the workplace or school is one thing, but this is quite another. Athletic organizations need to ante up and require that trans athletes either compete in their biological category or compete against each other in their own. The entire purpose of separation by gender in sports is preserving competitiveness. Most reasonable people can see the current situation is illogical and harmful.


You missed where she still has a penis and insists on using the female changing rooms.

EXCLUSIVE: 'We're uncomfortable in our own locker room.' Lia Thomas' UPenn teammate tells how the trans swimmer doesn't always cover up her male genitals when changing and their concerns go ignored by their coach
    One of Lia Thomas' teammates tells DailyMail.com they feel uncomfortable sharing a locker room with the transgender UPenn swimmer
    'It's definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,' she said
    The swimmer said that multiple teammates have raised their concerns with their coach, trying to get Thomas ousted from the female locker room
    'We were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there's nothing we can do about it,' she said
    The teammate added that Thomas appears to enjoy all the attention and said it affects the team more than it does her

Thomas previously competed on UPenn men's swim team for three years as Will before transitioning in 2019


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -room.html


Obviously unacceptable and this speaks to the total organizational failure I referred to in the OP.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:02 pm

Aesma wrote:
I mentioned size earlier but in some sports, there are categories by weight. In combat sports. That could help in that case, maybe.


Lets look at weight, the women's raw deadlight world record is 288,5kg, set by Tamara Walcott she weighted 130kg, in the up to 69kg men's class record is 305kg held by Chris Yip. So a male just over half her weight can lift 17.5kg more.

https://worldpowerlifting.com/records/m ... d-records/

https://www.openpowerlifting.org/u/tamarawalcott
 
afcjets
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:03 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
afcjets wrote:
I find it interesting you call Lia she, yet you don't want her competing in women's sports.


The pronouns use is to do with gender the athletic ability is due to sex. It’s pretty basic.

I wasn’t going to get in to “the left does this and the right does that” stuff but I now feel compelled for some reason. Whilst not an all out 100% thing then tendencies appear to be that.

The individual freedom loving right don’t want to allow someone to choose how the identify, they think you can’t choose your Gender…you can.

The truth and fact loving left think that you can choose your sex, they you can choose to change biology… you can’t.

Fred


Until recently they were synonymous and on most forms it still says Sex M/F. Do you actually think Lia checks the M box? (And you schooling her on the difference between sex and gender would likely go as well as me explaining to a black woman what it's like being a black woman in America today.)

So it basically comes down to semantics and this individual freedom loving rightie (a word I learned from Seb that I love)
has no issue with Lia checking whatever box she wants. But don't be surprised if someone changes it when he shows up in the locker room and starts swinging a sword.

https://debuk.wordpress.com/2016/12/15/ ... of-gender/
 
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Re: The Lia Thomas Trans Swimming Controversy

Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:05 pm

afcjets wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
afcjets wrote:
I find it interesting you call Lia she, yet you don't want her competing in women's sports.


The pronouns use is to do with gender the athletic ability is due to sex. It’s pretty basic.

I wasn’t going to get in to “the left does this and the right does that” stuff but I now feel compelled for some reason. Whilst not an all out 100% thing then tendencies appear to be that.

The individual freedom loving right don’t want to allow someone to choose how the identify, they think you can’t choose your Gender…you can.

The truth and fact loving left think that you can choose your sex, they you can choose to change biology… you can’t.

Fred


Until recently they were synonymous and on most forms it still says Sex M/F.

Historic genuine ignorance is not a valid excuse for future wilful ignorance.
afcjets wrote:
Do you actually think Lia checks the M box? (And you schooling her on the difference between sex and gender would likely go as well as me explaining to a black woman what it's like being a black woman in America today.)


A false equivalence, me explaining to Lia what it’s like to be a transgender athlete would be the equivalent to what you suggest. Schooling a black woman in the genetic predisposition to certain diseases and conditions would be mor Walton the lines of what I suggested.
afcjets wrote:

So it basically comes down to semantics and this individual freedom loving rightie (a word I learned from Seb that I love)
has no issue with Lia checking whatever box she wants. But don't be surprised if someone changes it when he shows up in the locker room and starts swinging a sword.


Make all changing rooms communal and with cubicles. It’s the norm where I live. Is the issue of “swinging the sword” only an issue in a space with females? It would appear to be a question of consent and exposure before it’s one of either gender or sex.

Should I, as a male who identifies as a male be afforded less protections from “swinging the sword” than someone else? Odd.

Fred


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