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ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:38 pm

QF7 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what do the last dozen or more posts have to do with bankruptcies in the automotive industry?

Of which, so far as I know, there are none.

The thread in general has nothing to do with auto bankruptcies, its just another thread to remind everyone that Tesla is the Second Coming of Christ.
 
M564038
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:14 pm

Lol. If you had watched as much as one whole of Bjørn’s videos, you would know a lot more than what you do. Seriously. Stop posturing.

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
But it’s not, you see. It is not that simple at all.

You guys should all start following Bjørn Nyland’s EV channel on You Tube to get a nuanced picture on all of this. He’s the guy that actually tests EVs, and an insane amount of them, under real life conditions and have done so for years.
No one knows more about EVs than him. No one. (And he does like the Taycan and the EQS among others, but he’s got a very deep understanding from a practical standpoint why these aren’t Teslas yet.)
I don’t particularily care for his style, he’s a bit to plump at times, but he’s very knowledgeable and at times entertaining and a lover of all things cars. He once borrowed one of my cars for one of his videos, and was a stand up guy in all regards in that case.

https://youtube.com/user/bjornnyland

Pune’s comments about Sandy Munroe’s teardown are also good. His channel is useful for the Car-engineering and manufacturing part of things, he certainly tears down some myths about Tesla design and engineering quality, although he’s got nothing on Bjørn when it comes to practical considerations.

https://youtube.com/c/MunroLive

ACDC8 wrote:
You can get a Taycan for $60,000 less and its a hell of a better car than anything Tesla will ever put out.


I’ve watched most of Bjørns videos he’s an unabashed Tesla fanboy, nothing more nothing less. I prefer Kris Rifa he’s far more objective.
 
ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:33 pm

M564038 wrote:
Lol. If you had watched as much as one whole of Bjørn’s videos, you would know a lot more than what you do. Seriously. Stop posturing.

In the 17 years I've been on this site, one thing I've learned is that Kiwirob knows a thing or two about cars.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:48 am

M564038 wrote:
Lol. If you had watched as much as one whole of Bjørn’s videos, you would know a lot more than what you do. Seriously. Stop posturing.

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
But it’s not, you see. It is not that simple at all.

You guys should all start following Bjørn Nyland’s EV channel on You Tube to get a nuanced picture on all of this. He’s the guy that actually tests EVs, and an insane amount of them, under real life conditions and have done so for years.
No one knows more about EVs than him. No one. (And he does like the Taycan and the EQS among others, but he’s got a very deep understanding from a practical standpoint why these aren’t Teslas yet.)
I don’t particularily care for his style, he’s a bit to plump at times, but he’s very knowledgeable and at times entertaining and a lover of all things cars. He once borrowed one of my cars for one of his videos, and was a stand up guy in all regards in that case.

https://youtube.com/user/bjornnyland

Pune’s comments about Sandy Munroe’s teardown are also good. His channel is useful for the Car-engineering and manufacturing part of things, he certainly tears down some myths about Tesla design and engineering quality, although he’s got nothing on Bjørn when it comes to practical considerations.

https://youtube.com/c/MunroLive



I’ve watched most of Bjørns videos he’s an unabashed Tesla fanboy, nothing more nothing less. I prefer Kris Rifa he’s far more objective.


I care little about your opinion but I have subbed to Nygard for years, even he will tell you he a Tesla fanboy, he was originally known as Teslabjørn or are you skipping over that? Maybe you should watch some Rifa, he’s very good, he also speaks much better English.
 
QF7
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:25 pm

pune wrote:
QF7 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what do the last dozen or more posts have to do with bankruptcies in the automotive industry?

Of which, so far as I know, there are none.


Any comment on this ???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCd0wDwqdNU


Two comments:

1. I don’t click random links.

2. It should be very easy to simply state, “the following companies are bankrupt: X, Y, Z.” If in fact any are.

Having said that, it is true some companies have been in bankruptcy before. It is entirely possible some companies may enter bankruptcy in the future. At the present time, so far as I know, there are none.
 
pune
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:36 pm

QF7 wrote:
pune wrote:
QF7 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what do the last dozen or more posts have to do with bankruptcies in the automotive industry?

Of which, so far as I know, there are none.


Any comment on this ???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCd0wDwqdNU


Two comments:

1. I don’t click random links.

2. It should be very easy to simply state, “the following companies are bankrupt: X, Y, Z.” If in fact, any are.

Having said that, it is true that some companies have been in bankruptcy before. It is entirely possible that some companies may enter bankruptcy in the future. At the present time, so far as I know, there are none.


If a company's car sales are down 15-20% on an annual basis and the only excuse they have is chip shortage or the Ukraine war or whatever else they can sneak in, shows they haven't been doing what is needed. And btw they are not random links. It is by a guy who loves EV because he has two kids and he understands the importance of clean air, as simple as that. And that itself tells about they haven't planned for the future and they are being disrupted right now. Now you can choose to remain ignorant, that's up to you. The second link is where the gentleman asserts that VW is heading towards bankruptcy as they haven't been doing what Herbert Decce had asked to do.
 
johns624
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:41 pm

pune wrote:
You're not supposed to post links without comment, yet you keep doing it.
 
pune
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:42 pm

pune wrote:
QF7 wrote:
pune wrote:


Two comments:

1. I don’t click random links.

2. It should be very easy to simply state, “the following companies are bankrupt: X, Y, Z.” If in fact, any are.

Having said that, it is true that some companies have been in bankruptcy before. It is entirely possible that some companies may enter bankruptcy in the future. At the present time, so far as I know, there are none.


If a company's car sales are down 15-20% on an annual basis and the only excuse they have is chip shortage or the Ukraine war or whatever else they can sneak in, shows they haven't been doing what is needed. And btw they are not random links. It is by a guy who loves EV because he has two kids and he understands the importance of clean air, as simple as that. And that itself tells about they haven't planned for the future and they are being disrupted right now. Now you can choose to remain ignorant, that's up to you. The second link is where the gentleman asserts that VW is heading towards bankruptcy as they haven't been doing what Herbert Decce had asked to do.


Additionally, if you look at almost all the legacy auto company's sales data for the last couple of years, you can see that the sales are simply not happening. While in EVs you don't see that. There is so much demand and people are ready to wait 6 weeks to 8-10 weeks or more to get their hands on an EV and at times at premium rates. Even Sandy Munro bought a Rivian about whom he had made some disparaging remarks before.
 
QF7
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:43 am

Nobody is arguing that EV’s are not the future. That and hydrogen and who knows what other power sources will eventually dominate the industry. No question about that.

You started off this thread, or maybe it was the earlier thread that got locked, by claiming there are manufacturers that are bankrupt. You have failed to provide any evidence of this.

As EV’s - from all manufacturers - gain more and more market share, fewer and fewer ICE vehicles will be manufactured. It doesn’t take a PhD in automotive engineering to figure that out.

You are arguing that declining ICE sales somehow proves legacy manufacturers have missed the boat and are doomed. You are assuming that current EV sales levels are steady-state and that the industry as a whole will not evolve and adapt. You are completely discounting the investments being made by legacy companies.

No one can know what the industry will look like in 10 or 20 years. One or a few companies may go bankrupt or merge or enter other lines of business or any of the other things that happen over time.

But I can pretty well guarantee you that not all legacy manufacturers will disappear. As pointed out earlier, they are already taking market share from
Tesla and that will continue. Tesla may eventually own just 15% or 20% or who knows what %. But it is a huge market with plenty of room for a number of players.

And meanwhile, unless you provide evidence otherwise, none of the players are currently bankrupt.
 
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Aesma
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:11 am

Protectionism will play a big role. I can't see France or Germany or the EU giving up on building cars, for example. Same for the US and Japan.
 
pune
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:44 am

Aesma wrote:
Protectionism will play a big role. I can't see France or Germany or the EU giving up on building cars, for example. Same for the US and Japan.


See this bit I have agreed. I mean I even shared what VW is currently at but he's unwilling to see it. Of course, Germany will bail them out, it has to. It has that 'too big to fail' tag to it. The same will happen with many other companies as well, legacy companies are counting on that and also lobbying for it. In fact, just saw this yesterday. Even share-holders are wanting VW to come clean, although if the past is any barometer, don't think they will.

https://www.churchofengland.org/media-a ... e-lobbying

So to answer the other gentleman from the thread, the legacy automakers know how to do things old style and not gonna hire hundreds of software engineers like Tesla and the Chinese are doing. And if they tried, there will be considerable blowback from the existing employees. We did see what happened with Herbert Diess when he tried to change the culture. And it's similar to other manufacturers.

And for the last time, if you know of a vehicle and a charger network for hydrogen then talk about hydrogen otherwise it's vaporware. We know about the supercharger as well as third-party charger networks which are coming up all the time.
 
JJJ
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:32 am

QF7 wrote:

But I can pretty well guarantee you that not all legacy manufacturers will disappear. As pointed out earlier, they are already taking market share from
Tesla and that will continue. Tesla may eventually own just 15% or 20% or who knows what %. But it is a huge market with plenty of room for a number of players.


According to www.eu-evs.com Tesla ended up Q1 at less than 15% (14,31% to be exact) for all countries that have daily or monthly registration data public. Which means they're in 4th place after VW, Stellantis and Hyundai/Kia.

2 years ago at Q1 2020 they were at over 30% and undisputed leader.

Current plans seem to be that EU will ban sales of petrol/diesel cars by 2035, it's disingenous to think they'll just sit there still and do nothing.
 
ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:44 am

pune wrote:
Additionally, if you look at almost all the legacy auto company's sales data for the last couple of years, you can see that the sales are simply not happening.

LOL, there is no inventory right now - dealerships literally have empty lots, for ICE and EVs. The dealership that I've been dealing with for the last near 20 years, has 3 new cars on their lot right now - 1 GLI and 2 Tiggys - thats it. Anything they have on order gets there when it gets there.
pune wrote:
While in EVs you don't see that. There is so much demand and people are ready to wait 6 weeks to 8-10 weeks or more to get their hands on an EV and at times at premium rates.

LOL, you think ICEs are any different? If I want to order a new GTI right now, I'm looking at a 6-12 month wait (not weeks, months). In many cases, anything on the lot has astronomical mark ups on both new and used ICE vehicles for those who can't or don't want to wait to order a car in. My car right now, used (4 years and about 80000kms) is going for the same price I paid new. Christ, a local dealership had a used Bronco Sport Big Bend going for $15K over the price of a new one.

Current sales of cars has literally nothing to do with EVs and everything to do with no inventory. Nice try though.

Oh, BTW, with your previous comments about hydrogen, Suncor just announced that they are selling off all their wind and solar assets and investing in hydrogen - smart move.
 
ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:01 am

Aesma wrote:
Protectionism will play a big role. I can't see France or Germany or the EU giving up on building cars, for example. Same for the US and Japan.

No one is giving up building cars, VW, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, GM, etc. build cars - thats what they do. As technology changes, they re-tool and build new cars to the adapted technology. Anyone who thinks that Tesla is going to own some massive share of the market or that countries will flood their roads with Chinese cars is dreaming.
 
JJJ
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:47 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
While in EVs you don't see that. There is so much demand and people are ready to wait 6 weeks to 8-10 weeks or more to get their hands on an EV and at times at premium rates.

LOL, you think ICEs are any different? If I want to order a new GTI right now, I'm looking at a 6-12 month wait (not weeks, months).


Just to illustrate that point: my wife has a merc C-class on order since October. Apparently we're getting it in May.

The most common company car in my company is either VW Tiguan or Citroen DS7. The wait for either is also around 6-9 months.
 
ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Tue Apr 05, 2022 9:04 am

JJJ wrote:
Just to illustrate that point: my wife has a merc C-class on order since October. Apparently we're getting it in May.

The most common company car in my company is either VW Tiguan or Citroen DS7. The wait for either is also around 6-9 months.

Interestingly, ordering and waiting for a car in Germany is not too out of the ordinary, at least compared to here in North America. Going to a dealership, ordering a car and picking it up yourself in Wolfsburg was quite a normal thing to do, at least when I lived there. Mercedes, BMW used to have similar programs here, you order a car, fly over to Stuttgart, Munich, pick up your car from the factory, drive it around Germany for a week or two an then they ship it to you - at a cost of course. Mostly here in North America, you go to the lot, pick out a car and drive home with it the same day. I did have to place an order once before, back in 2007 when VW Canada offered the Mk4 Golf/Jetta at the same time as the Mk5's and sold them as "City" models as they were still in production in Brazil and Mexico - IIRC it was about a 6 month wait for that.

At least we don't have to wait 8 years for a Trabant like the good ol' days :rotfl:

I'm heading home to visit my dad in a couple of weeks and popping into my home dealership to come up with a plan to order a Mk8 GTI or possibly Mk7 GLI (undecided between the two) for delivery by next summer - should be an interesting experience. Just wish if this is going to be the norm for the foreseeable future, maybe give us a few extra options to personalize the car a bit more. Nothing is more infuriating then wanting "X" colour of leather seats but you can only have it with "Z" colour of exterior - sheesh.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:05 pm

Getting all your knowledge from YouTube is a pretty narrow view of an industry. Just saying.
 
ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Wed Apr 06, 2022 1:06 am

pune wrote:
Well, if they had then they wouldn't have to be silent or be uncooperative with their shareholders, and stall time again and again. 3 years is no joke. 10 years is millennia away.

This was what Herbert their CEO said - https://insideevs.com/news/574049/vw-gr ... tin-visit/

And for this his powers were curtailed, the only guy who understands what needs to be done.

What are you talking about? VW is a business, their objective is to make money, and right now thats what they are doing quite well with ICE vehicles, as we shift into the future and into EVs, VW is getting ready to keep making money as the more and more jurisdictions create mandates to ZEVs. As of right now, there are very few (if any) jurisdictions that ban the sale of ICE vehicles and those vehicles still sell more than EVs.

VW alone sold almost 10 million vehicles in 2020 and they would be selling millions more today if the world wasn't suffering from a supply chain crisis, and yes, that is why new car sales are plummeting right now, now matter what EV propaganda you read.

The ID Buzz goes on sale next year, yet the camper version will take a few years longer because the ICE version is selling like hot cakes right now, and thats what a business focuses on - money, not what Greta or some other climate fanatics think they should do.
 
JJJ
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:35 pm

pune wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
Well, if they had then they wouldn't have to be silent or be uncooperative with their shareholders, and stall time again and again. 3 years is no joke. 10 years is millennia away.

This was what Herbert their CEO said - https://insideevs.com/news/574049/vw-gr ... tin-visit/

And for this his powers were curtailed, the only guy who understands what needs to be done.

What are you talking about? VW is a business, their objective is to make money, and right now thats what they are doing quite well with ICE vehicles, as we shift into the future and into EVs, VW is getting ready to keep making money as more and more jurisdictions create mandates to ZEVs. As of right now, there are very few (if any) jurisdictions that ban the sale of ICE vehicles and those vehicles still sell more than EVs.

VW alone sold almost 10 million vehicles in 2020 and they would be selling millions more today if the world wasn't suffering from a supply chain crisis, and yes, that is why new car sales are plummeting right now, no matter what EV propaganda you read.

The ID Buzz goes on sale next year, yet the camper version will take a few years longer because the ICE version is selling like hot cakes right now, and thats what a business focuses on - money, not what Greta or some other climate fanatics think they should do.


Lol, what are you smoking mate ??? I always cite/back things up with numbers -

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/04/05/uk ... er-2x-yoy/

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/04/03/fr ... ecord-low/

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/04/02/no ... -in-march/

That is more than enough to tell what is happening in the market. People buy it for multiple reasons, it doesn't harm them or their families. It works out cheaper in the short and the long run. Maintenance costs are low.


Subsidies are shaping the way people make their purchases.

Try buying a gas or diesel car in Norway right now. Of course it makes sense for them to go electric, but it's all about either subsidising electric cars or taxing ICE cars to death.
 
pune
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:25 pm

JJJ wrote:
pune wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
What are you talking about? VW is a business, their objective is to make money, and right now thats what they are doing quite well with ICE vehicles, as we shift into the future and into EVs, VW is getting ready to keep making money as more and more jurisdictions create mandates to ZEVs. As of right now, there are very few (if any) jurisdictions that ban the sale of ICE vehicles and those vehicles still sell more than EVs.

VW alone sold almost 10 million vehicles in 2020 and they would be selling millions more today if the world wasn't suffering from a supply chain crisis, and yes, that is why new car sales are plummeting right now, no matter what EV propaganda you read.

The ID Buzz goes on sale next year, yet the camper version will take a few years longer because the ICE version is selling like hot cakes right now, and thats what a business focuses on - money, not what Greta or some other climate fanatics think they should do.


Lol, what are you smoking mate ??? I always cite/back things up with numbers -

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/04/05/uk ... er-2x-yoy/

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/04/03/fr ... ecord-low/

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/04/02/no ... -in-march/

That is more than enough to tell what is happening in the market. People buy it for multiple reasons, it doesn't harm them or their families. It works out cheaper in the short and the long run. Maintenance costs are low.


Subsidies are shaping the way people make their purchases.

Try buying a gas or diesel car in Norway right now. Of course, it makes sense for them to go electric, but it's all about either subsidizing electric cars or taxing ICE cars to death.


Possible, but before I came to know EVs I didn't know that using diesel cars can lead to cancer. If I have a family, then choosing EVs also makes more sense for my own health. There the auto industry did a good job of cover-up, even today hardly 1-2% of people know about

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-ca ... ancer.html
 
ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:45 pm

JJJ wrote:
Subsidies are shaping the way people make their purchases.

Try buying a gas or diesel car in Norway right now. Of course it makes sense for them to go electric, but it's all about either subsidising electric cars or taxing ICE cars to death.

Oh, absolutely. Just like here in Canada - Federal and Provincial Governments offered rebates on the purchase of new EVs and sales were good, as soon as the rebates stopped, EV sales tanked so the Governments decided to reinstate the rebates.

We don't have any extra taxes (other than fuel of course) on ICE vehicles yet, but I'm sure thats coming in the decade or so. Our local Government proposed a "fuel guzzler" tax late last year but that got axed just a couple of months ago because the people who can't afford an EV are the people who rely on ICE vehicles and they can't afford another tax that hits them when they have no choice. Once EVs become more mainstream and affordable, then yeah, I can see a new tax being implemented.

When I lived in Germany, they had an emissions tax and gas guzzler tax as far back as I can remember - the bigger your engine was, the more tax you pay on the purchase and every two years getting your vehicles emissions measured. They tried an emissions tax here in BC some 30 years ago, well, at least in the Metro Vancouver area and that was an utter disaster.
Last edited by ACDC8 on Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:48 pm

pune wrote:
Possible, but before I came to know EVs I didn't know that using diesel cars can lead to cancer. If I have a family, then choosing EVs also makes more sense for my own health. There the auto industry did a good job of cover-up, even today hardly 1-2% of people know about

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-ca ... ancer.html

This has been common knowledge for decades and is one of the reasons we got rid of leaded fuel. There is no "cover up" - the majority of people know that fuel and emissions from both diesel and gasoline are not healthy and as I've explained this to you in another thread, they've known this for decades.
 
pune
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:15 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
Possible, but before I came to know EVs I didn't know that using diesel cars can lead to cancer. If I have a family, then choosing EVs also makes more sense for my own health. There the auto industry did a good job of cover-up, even today hardly 1-2% of people know about

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-ca ... ancer.html

This has been common knowledge for decades and is one of the reasons we got rid of leaded fuel. There is no "cover up" - the majority of people know that fuel and emissions from both diesel and gasoline are not healthy and as I've explained this to you in another thread, they've known this for decades.


Perhaps your corner of the globe, not here, not in my corner. They still don't. And by they, I mean the general public ar large.
 
ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:26 pm

pune wrote:
Perhaps your corner of the globe, not here, not in my corner. They still don't. And by they, I mean the general public ar large.

Which is why I explained this to you before in another thread when you brought it up then.
 
pune
Topic Author
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:21 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
Perhaps your corner of the globe, not here, not in my corner. They still don't. And by they, I mean the general public ar large.

Which is why I explained this to you before in another thread when you brought it up then.


And that is the point. If people were more aware of how the dangers are. I don't really think people are that aware and would still do the stupid decision to go for an ice car if you have got an alternative of an EV car around the same price point. And Governments have a constitutional role in improving human health. On that barometer alone, Governments are entitled to those technologies which improve health. And again, people vote with their wallets. I did see you were silent on the UK.
 
ACDC8
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:35 am

pune wrote:
And that is the point. If people were more aware of how the dangers are. I don't really think people are that aware and would still do the stupid decision to go for an ice car if you have got an alternative of an EV car around the same price point. And Governments have a constitutional role in improving human health. On that barometer alone, Governments are entitled to those technologies which improve health. And again, people vote with their wallets.

Exactly, people vote with their wallets - the majority of people could care less about the environmental or health impacts of ICE vs EV, but if an EV costs less to purchase and operate with the same operating convenience, then you'll see more people shift to an EV - but here's the problem, we're not there yet.

Telling people what they already know (health/environmental effects) of ICE plays a very small role in their purchasing decision, this is the reality. Has nothing to do with "cover-ups", has nothing to do with "big oil", has everything to do with what people want.

You can argue all day long that "well, people should" or "if they don't, they're stupid" or whatever, but that doesn't change reality.

As for the Governments go, of course they play a vital role, but as you've seen over the last 2 years, when it comes health concerns of the population, they need to tread very, very carefully. There is a lot of distrust in experts and Governments right now, and the wrong move by a Government will only strengthen that distrust.

pune wrote:
I did see you were silent on the UK.

What about the UK? You made the same comment in the other thread discussing the exact same thing and I gave you my comments there.
 
pune
Topic Author
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Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:23 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
And that is the point. If people were more aware of how the dangers are. I don't really think people are that aware and would still do the stupid decision to go for an ice car if you have got an alternative of an EV car around the same price point. And Governments have a constitutional role in improving human health. On that barometer alone, Governments are entitled to those technologies which improve health. And again, people vote with their wallets.

Exactly, people vote with their wallets - the majority of people could care less about the environmental or health impacts of ICE vs EV, but if an EV costs less to purchase and operate with the same operating convenience, then you'll see more people shift to an EV - but here's the problem, we're not there yet.

Telling people what they already know (health/environmental effects) of ICE plays a very small role in their purchasing decision, this is the reality. Has nothing to do with "cover-ups", has nothing to do with "big oil", has everything to do with what people want.

You can argue all day long that "well, people should" or "if they don't, they're stupid" or whatever, but that doesn't change reality.

As for the Governments go, of course they play a vital role, but as you've seen over the last 2 years, when it comes health concerns of the population, they need to tread very, very carefully. There is a lot of distrust in experts and Governments right now, and the wrong move by a Government will only strengthen that distrust.

pune wrote:
I did see you were silent on the UK.

What about the UK? You made the same comment in the other thread discussing the exact same thing and I gave you my comments there.


For some, it will always be 'not there' till it's screaming in their face As far as the UK is concerned, it has the right-wing govt. pro-coal lobby and whatnot and yet still EV's are capturing the market and this is happening month after month. ICE is going down.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:44 am

pune wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
And that is the point. If people were more aware of how the dangers are. I don't really think people are that aware and would still do the stupid decision to go for an ice car if you have got an alternative of an EV car around the same price point. And Governments have a constitutional role in improving human health. On that barometer alone, Governments are entitled to those technologies which improve health. And again, people vote with their wallets.

Exactly, people vote with their wallets - the majority of people could care less about the environmental or health impacts of ICE vs EV, but if an EV costs less to purchase and operate with the same operating convenience, then you'll see more people shift to an EV - but here's the problem, we're not there yet.

Telling people what they already know (health/environmental effects) of ICE plays a very small role in their purchasing decision, this is the reality. Has nothing to do with "cover-ups", has nothing to do with "big oil", has everything to do with what people want.

You can argue all day long that "well, people should" or "if they don't, they're stupid" or whatever, but that doesn't change reality.

As for the Governments go, of course they play a vital role, but as you've seen over the last 2 years, when it comes health concerns of the population, they need to tread very, very carefully. There is a lot of distrust in experts and Governments right now, and the wrong move by a Government will only strengthen that distrust.

pune wrote:
I did see you were silent on the UK.

What about the UK? You made the same comment in the other thread discussing the exact same thing and I gave you my comments there.


For some, it will always be 'not there' till it's screaming in their face As far as the UK is concerned, it has the right-wing govt. pro-coal lobby and whatnot and yet still EVs are capturing the market and this is happening month after month. ICE is going down.


This french action also tells a lot.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/04/03/fr ... ecord-low/
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8633
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:09 am

pune wrote:
This french action also tells a lot.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/04/03/fr ... ecord-low/

Thanks to 6000€ in rebates.

Speaking of France, liquified petroleum car sales are also on the rise.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8633
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:11 am

pune wrote:
For some, it will always be 'not there' till it's screaming in their face As far as the UK is concerned, it has the right-wing govt. pro-coal lobby and whatnot and yet still EV's are capturing the market and this is happening month after month.

As I mentioned previously, I left my comments on this the first time you brought this exact same argument up in another thread. If you'd like to know what they are, I suggest you go back and re-read them.
pune wrote:
ICE is going down.

ICE will be here as long as there is market for it, and that market will be there for years to come. Sorry.

People will continue to buy ICE vehicles for years to come, myself included. Now, what was that gem of a comment you told me in one of your other half a dozen or so threads on the exact same topic? "It'll be your own funeral" or something like that? :rotfl:
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:05 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
For some, it will always be 'not there' till it's screaming in their face As far as the UK is concerned, it has the right-wing govt. pro-coal lobby and whatnot and yet still EV's are capturing the market and this is happening month after month.

As I mentioned previously, I left my comments on this the first time you brought this exact same argument up in another thread. If you'd like to know what they are, I suggest you go back and re-read them.
pune wrote:
ICE is going down.

ICE will be here as long as there is a market for it, and that market will be there for years to come. Sorry.

People will continue to buy ICE vehicles for years to come, myself included. Now, what was that gem of a comment you told me in one of your other half a dozen or so threads on the exact same topic? "It'll be your own funeral" or something like that? :ROTFL:


This video is specifically for you. And I would what he suggests, go back to you car ane breathe those beautiful fumes -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZNxQr0QCHI

And for the Toyota fanboys, any idea why is the new EV called BYD corolla instead of Toyota Corolla. Perhaps that was in the agreement.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:24 am

Btw Ford just recalled 737,000 vehicles in the last two days in the U.S. over a part that could develop an oil leak and a software error that could hinder braking. All sorts of finger-pointing happening in Ford.

https://www.klkntv.com/recall-alert-for ... de-alarms/

You won't hear about carbon monoxide asphyxiation in EV cars.

And it seems their warranty costs are even higher than General Motors. The last recall of 2005 of 7.9 million vehicles supposedly did them in which they didn't do anything till something like 150 odd complaints of fires and whatnot pushed them to do the recall. Even the finger-pointing culture can't be good.

They can't sustain the debt but of course, they know the Govt. will bail them out.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ ... 240668001/
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 8:45 am

pune wrote:
Btw Ford just recalled 737,000 vehicles in the last two days in the U.S. over a part that could develop an oil leak and a software error that could hinder braking. All sorts of finger-pointing happening in Ford.

https://www.klkntv.com/recall-alert-for ... de-alarms/

You won't hear about carbon monoxide asphyxiation in EV cars.

And it seems their warranty costs are even higher than General Motors. The last recall of 2005 of 7.9 million vehicles supposedly did them in which they didn't do anything till something like 150 odd complaints of fires and whatnot pushed them to do the recall. Even the finger-pointing culture can't be good.

They can't sustain the debt but of course, they know the Govt. will bail them out.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ ... 240668001/


That one article and all the people from Autoline, as well as analyst dan levy, tell it all. If they don't control the warranty costs, they are gonna go bankrupt. Of course, they are far more polite than to say that but the implication is the same.

And then there is this -

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 161130.htm

Massive methane emissions by the oil and gas industry were detected from space.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/05/ma ... ite-space/

You can also find the original press release in French shared in the article.
Last edited by pune on Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8633
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:07 am

pune wrote:
This video is specifically for you. And I would what he suggests, go back to you car ane breathe those beautiful fumes -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZNxQr0QCHI

Yawn.

pune wrote:
And for the Toyota fanboys, any idea why is the new EV called BYD corolla instead of Toyota Corolla. Perhaps that was in the agreement.

Who's calling it a Corolla? Source.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8633
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:11 am

pune wrote:
Btw Ford just recalled 737,000 vehicles in the last two days in the U.S. over a part that could develop an oil leak and a software error that could hinder braking. All sorts of finger-pointing happening in Ford.

Oh no, a vehicle recall! Man, never heard that happening before.

https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla- ... or-defect/
https://www.protocol.com/tesla-nhtsa-recall
https://globalnews.ca/news/8605915/tesl ... e-problem/
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/tesla-recal ... -1.1701625

And before you go squawking about recalls, recalls are issued when a vehicle has a safety defect that is serious enough that the Government mandates the recall.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:11 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
This video is specifically for you. And I would what he suggests, go back to you car ane breathe those beautiful fumes -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZNxQr0QCHI

Yawn.


pune wrote:
And for the Toyota fanboys, any idea why is the new EV called BYD corolla instead of Toyota Corolla. Perhaps that was in the agreement.

Who's calling it a Corolla? Source.


Of course, people who want to sleep will always sleep.

And there are multiple sources. An e.g. from last year itself.

https://thedriven.io/2021/12/07/toyota- ... -cost-evs/

I am sure you gonna remain silent on the methane leaks and their impact on our environment.
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:15 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
Btw Ford just recalled 737,000 vehicles in the last two days in the U.S. over a part that could develop an oil leak and a software error that could hinder braking. All sorts of finger-pointing happening in Ford.

Oh no, a vehicle recall! Man, never heard that happening before.

https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla- ... or-defect/
https://www.protocol.com/tesla-nhtsa-recall
https://globalnews.ca/news/8605915/tesl ... e-problem/
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/tesla-recal ... -1.1701625

And before you go squawking about recalls, recalls are issued when a vehicle has a safety defect that is serious enough that the Government mandates the recall.


True, but their warranty costs are not as high as GM or Ford's, that is the thing. Of course, the way the Tesla guys are expanding. Elon has told they would be producing 20 million vehicles per year by 2030. While the biggest auto car manufacturers are what 10 million vehicles at tops. That is the reason VW and Toyota want to stop Tesla.

I did see you kept silent on all the other stuff, the culture bit at Ford, and the issues therein. The last CEO didn't even mention the warranty issues and costs that have been rising up at an alarming rate.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8633
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:16 am

pune wrote:
Of course, people who want to sleep will always sleep.

And there are multiple sources. An e.g. from last year itself.

https://thedriven.io/2021/12/07/toyota- ... -cost-evs/

Please highlight the paragraph/sentence where anyone mentions it being called a Corolla. Thanks.
pune wrote:
I am sure you gonna remain silent on the methane leaks and their impact on our environment.

Yawn. Methane leaks :sarcastic:
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8633
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:20 am

pune wrote:
That is the reason VW and Toyota want to stop Tesla.

Every manufacturer wants to slow every competitor the best they can, thats called business.


pune wrote:
I did see you kept silent on all the other stuff, the culture bit at Ford, and the issues therein. The last CEO didn't even mention the warranty issues and costs that have been rising up at an alarming rate.

You're like a repetitive parrot, always squawking the same nonsense. Its a recall, happens every year to every manufacturer and has been happening for over 100 years and yet all these manufacturers are still here :sarcastic:
 
pune
Topic Author
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: bankruptcies in the auto market

Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:37 am

ACDC8 wrote:
pune wrote:
That is the reason VW and Toyota want to stop Tesla.

Every manufacturer wants to slow every competitor the best they can, that's called business


pune wrote:
I did see you kept silent on all the other stuff, the culture bit at Ford, and the issues therein. The last CEO didn't even mention the warranty issues and costs that have been rising up at an alarming rate.

You're like a repetitive parrot, always squawking the same nonsense. Its a recall, that happens every year to every manufacturer and has been happening for over 100 years, and yet all these manufacturers are still here :sarcastic:


Well, for me this knowledge is new about the warranty costs and how they have ballooned up, didn't know it than before and to that extent. Please let me know where you heard me know about this before. And two are very different things. And I still didn't see you say anything about the methane leaks, or did you drop your glasses or something. :sarcastic:

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