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Doberdawg
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:10 pm

Here: https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... 282016.pdf

[https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/doc_downloads/governance/Code-of-Ethics-and-Business-Conduct-3.282016.pdf quote="planecane"]
Boof02671 wrote:
planecane wrote:
People read selectively. I didn't ever say nothing was wrong. I said it didn't rise to the level of being terminated or arrested. I said there should be some consequence like a suspension. If you're going to "understand" my view then at least read it carefully.

According to Delta it does violate their rules of conduct and it can be a terminating offense. Go back and read my earlier post.


I am not privy to the Delta employee policies. If you can quote the relevant policy it would be appreciated. If it is in writing and is specific then he can be terminated if they choose to do so.[/quote]
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:46 pm

Well looks like this says it all.

Image
 
Doberdawg
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:57 pm

Exactly. That section in particular, but the entire Code of Ethics is applicable.

Boof02671 wrote:
Well looks like this says it all.

Image
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:12 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
I was a union rep for 20 years at US Airways. Every airline has a posted rules of conduct. What he did would violate such policy and in this day and age he most certainly would be fired. And the company would be justified and have Just Cause to do so.

This isn’t about the law, this is about established, tested and long term rules of conduct.

That’s what many of you are failing to grasp.

If I was a woman and a flight attendant or a female pilot I would refuse to work with him.


I don't purport to know the rules at DL, but I completely-agree with you that the conduct creates a workplace issue AT DELTA where females would not and should not want to work with the guy, and clearly don't have to. Best way to solve the problem: buh-bye. I always knew you were a person of principle, Sir, from your other posts, and you reinforce that here with a very fine one.


This was essentially my point from the get-go regarding unprofessional conduct. The reputational harm is icing on the cake for just cause. Other things you mentioned like the videographer’s intent are immaterial to the conduct itself.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:15 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Well looks like this says it all.

Image


And there it is. So much for HR people ‘stretching things to cover a situation’ :sarcastic: Our field has regular seminars and retraining so that we know what we’re talking about lol
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:18 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Well looks like this says it all.

Image


And there it is. So much for HR people ‘stretching things to cover a situation’ :sarcastic: Our field has regular seminars and retraining so that we know what we’re talking about lol

I was saying from the beginning this is a terminating offense.

I can’t believe people were defending the pilot.

I’m glad you see it for what it is.

And if he felt he wasn’t doing anything wrong then why did he hide the phone under his Kindle while taking inappropriate photos?

Too much Whataboutism from some of these posters.

I mean how could they blame the person who took the video of him doing it?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:28 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Well looks like this says it all.

Image


And there it is. So much for HR people ‘stretching things to cover a situation’ :sarcastic: Our field has regular seminars and retraining so that we know what we’re talking about lol

I was saying from the beginning this is a terminating offense.

I can’t believe people were defending the pilot.

I’m glad you see it for what it is.

And if he felt he wasn’t doing anything wrong then why did he hide the phone under his Kindle while taking inappropriate photos?

Too much Whataboutism from some of these posters.

I mean how could they blame the person who took the video of him doing it?


That's what I said somewhere back on page 2. I have sat in on many meetings where we had to bring in Legal and analyze video footage of incidents. With these videos, your question would be the key point. The other notables are his nervous eye movements, his dedication to the concealment routine itself (ensuring the phone is balanced under the tablet, ensuring the e-reader is what's visible to passersby etc) - all indicate to me he was aware he was doing something risky and/or was getting a thrill from it.

People have really spun wheels in this thread, but the long and short of it is there's no defending this pilot. Professional standards exist to protect both the company and employees. As I already stated, it would be unfair to give this guy second chances when a. sexual harassment training is standard b. ethical policies were outlined and signed to at employment and c. the vast majority of his peers hold themselves to or exceed such standards on a daily basis.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:32 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

And there it is. So much for HR people ‘stretching things to cover a situation’ :sarcastic: Our field has regular seminars and retraining so that we know what we’re talking about lol

I was saying from the beginning this is a terminating offense.

I can’t believe people were defending the pilot.

I’m glad you see it for what it is.

And if he felt he wasn’t doing anything wrong then why did he hide the phone under his Kindle while taking inappropriate photos?

Too much Whataboutism from some of these posters.

I mean how could they blame the person who took the video of him doing it?


That's what I said somewhere back on page 2. I have sat in on many meetings where we had to bring in Legal and analyze video footage of incidents. With these videos, your question would be the key point. The other notables are his nervous eye movements, his dedication to the concealment routine itself (ensuring the phone is balanced under the tablet, ensuring the e-reader is what's visible to passersby etc) - all indicate to me he was aware he was doing something risky and/or was getting a thrill from it.

People have really spun wheels in this thread, but the long and short of it is there's no defending this pilot. Professional standards exist to protect both the company and employees. As I already stated, it would be unfair to give this guy second chances when a. sexual harassment training is standard b. ethical policies were outlined and signed to at employment and c. the vast majority of his peers hold themselves to or exceed such standards on a daily basis.

The two FAs I spoke to today are friends of mine. Long term 20+ years at Delta, both were former NW.

They both said they would feel uncomfortable working with this man
 
amax1977
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:04 am

Was what he did creepy? In my opinion yes. Was it illegal? No.
If the matter is taken to the court, Delta won’t have a smoking gun to fire the guy. All he did was he took photos in public place with no faces showed in the picture while he was off duty. Nothing illegal about it.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:06 am

amax1977 wrote:
Was what he did creepy? In my opinion yes. Was it illegal? No.
If the matter is taken to the court, Delta won’t have a smoking gun to fire the guy. All he did was he took photos in public place with no faces showed in the picture while he was off duty. Nothing illegal about it.


Illegal action is not a prereq for just cause termination. Re-read the ethics policy posted above. Damage to organization and/or making other employees feel uncomfortable all fly under unprofessional conduct as well.
 
amax1977
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:17 am

Aaron747 wrote:
amax1977 wrote:
Was what he did creepy? In my opinion yes. Was it illegal? No.
If the matter is taken to the court, Delta won’t have a smoking gun to fire the guy. All he did was he took photos in public place with no faces showed in the picture while he was off duty. Nothing illegal about it.


Illegal action is not a prereq for just cause termination. Re-read the ethics policy posted above. Damage to organization and/or making other employees feel uncomfortable all fly under unprofessional conduct as well.

I agree with you. But not sure if Delta ethics policies are applicable on a Frontier flight to an off duty Delta employee.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:24 am

amax1977 wrote:
Was what he did creepy? In my opinion yes. Was it illegal? No.
If the matter is taken to the court, Delta won’t have a smoking gun to fire the guy. All he did was he took photos in public place with no faces showed in the picture while he was off duty. Nothing illegal about it.

What you don’t get it has NOTHING to do with illegal.

Delta pilots are unionized and work under a CBA.

It doesn’t go to court, it goes to the grievance procedure. A court would throw it out as he had to follow the CBA and grievance procedure which is under the Federal Law, the Railway Labor Act. Courts don’t have Jurisdiction.

And did you even read Delta’s policy?

They can fire him and it would be for Just Cause as anyone working under a CBA the company must follow Just Cause for termination.

He clearly was in violation.

He was in uniform, he was either using jumpseat privileges or pass riding, both are Benefits he gets working for Delta.

The policy clearly says on or off duty.

Many “Karen’s and Ken’s” have been fired for their behavior off the job which weren’t illegal acts.

I can’t believe people defending him.

What would you do if that was your wife, mother, sister or girlfriend?

He clearly hid the phone under his Kindle while taking inappropriate pictures.

I was a union rep for 20 years at US Airways, I’ve seen people be terminated for less. He clearly violated Delta’s policy.

Even spoke to two Delta FAs and they wouldn’t want to work with that pilot and they both said Delta would take action up to termination.

Read this again.

Image

And here is their full policy and it states on or off duty.

https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... 282016.pdf
 
hpff
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:38 am

Boof02671 wrote:
amax1977 wrote:
Was what he did creepy? In my opinion yes. Was it illegal? No.
If the matter is taken to the court, Delta won’t have a smoking gun to fire the guy. All he did was he took photos in public place with no faces showed in the picture while he was off duty. Nothing illegal about it.

What you don’t get it has NOTHING to do with illegal.



As I've noted above even then it still is very likely illegal under the federal civil rights statutes (not certainly since it's reviewed on a case-by-case basis but it's pretty clear), however those are not criminal statutes.
 
Doberdawg
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:00 am

He was wearing his Delta uniform, and if he was dead heading as per the pilot CBA he was getting paid an hourly rate by Delta. The Code of Ethics is applicable.

amax1977 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
amax1977 wrote:
Was what he did creepy? In my opinion yes. Was it illegal? No.
If the matter is taken to the court, Delta won’t have a smoking gun to fire the guy. All he did was he took photos in public place with no faces showed in the picture while he was off duty. Nothing illegal about it.


Illegal action is not a prereq for just cause termination. Re-read the ethics policy posted above. Damage to organization and/or making other employees feel uncomfortable all fly under unprofessional conduct as well.

I agree with you. But not sure if Delta ethics policies are applicable on a Frontier flight to an off duty Delta employee.
 
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zeke
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:02 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Illegal action is not a prereq for just cause termination. Re-read the ethics policy posted above. Damage to organization and/or making other employees feel uncomfortable all fly under unprofessional conduct as well.


Just cause termination does not mean knee jerk reactions to satisfy a news cycle. As I posted above it was reported the pilot was already terminated.

Just cause termination requires many checks and balances upon an employer, which includes a fair and balanced application of policy, and a fair and balanced investigation.

The burden of proof for just cause this with employer, and many just cause terminations get overturned in court.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:05 am

Doberdawg wrote:
He was wearing his Delta uniform, and if he was dead heading as per the pilot CBA he was getting paid an hourly rate by Delta. The Code of Ethics is applicable.

amax1977 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Illegal action is not a prereq for just cause termination. Re-read the ethics policy posted above. Damage to organization and/or making other employees feel uncomfortable all fly under unprofessional conduct as well.

I agree with you. But not sure if Delta ethics policies are applicable on a Frontier flight to an off duty Delta employee.

The whole policy manual clearly says on or off duty. Him being in uniform is enough.

An off duty pilot can’t go to a bar in uniform.
 
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zeke
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:05 am

Doberdawg wrote:
He was wearing his Delta uniform, and if he was dead heading as per the pilot CBA he was getting paid an hourly rate by Delta. The Code of Ethics is applicable.


He could have been off duty going home, he could be gay, the FA could be his partner.
 
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zeke
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:08 am

Boof02671 wrote:
An off duty pilot can’t go to a bar in uniform.


You have said this before, it is not relevant here as that is expressly stated as not being allowed, with a little caveat saying it is permitted with management approval.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:10 am

zeke wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Illegal action is not a prereq for just cause termination. Re-read the ethics policy posted above. Damage to organization and/or making other employees feel uncomfortable all fly under unprofessional conduct as well.


Just cause termination does not mean knee jerk reactions to satisfy a news cycle. As I posted above it was reported the pilot was already terminated.

Just cause termination requires many checks and balances upon an employer, which includes a fair and balanced application of policy, and a fair and balanced investigation.

The burden of proof for just cause this with employer, and many just cause terminations get overturned in court.

Do you reside in the US?

Courts don’t have jurisdiction in this case.

Delta pilots are unionized and work under a collective bargaining agreement which falls under the Railway Labor Act.

The CBA has a grievance procedure that the pilot, the union and the company must follow. The final step in the policy is arbitration.

Courts would throw the case out.

And even if he tries to sue after the arbitration. The courts will only accept the case if there was a gross violation on the arbitration.

The Federal Arbitration Act defines what violations that would allow someone to sue after an arbitration.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:12 am

zeke wrote:
Doberdawg wrote:
He was wearing his Delta uniform, and if he was dead heading as per the pilot CBA he was getting paid an hourly rate by Delta. The Code of Ethics is applicable.


He could have been off duty going home, he could be gay, the FA could be his partner.

Not of that is relevant. I was a union rep for 20 years at US Airways. I represented Mechanic and Related at US and I was also involved with the CO flight attendants.

The policy clearly states on or off duty. And what he did clearly violates the portion I posted.

He was in uniform, he was pass riding or jumpseating both are benefits provided to him by Delta.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
andrew50
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:42 am

Has anyone ever seen the sometimes pretty risqué photos of flight attendants in full uniform on Instagram? There are several different sites.
 
Doberdawg
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:43 am

Are you serious? If not, haha, however, if you are stating this in all seriousness, I refer you back to the questions posed in the Code of Ethics. None of the scenarios you mention are in alignment with that policy and so the pilot is subject to disciplinary action up to and including termination of employment.

The pilot was wearing his uniform, and whether he is on the clock or off, that uniform represents Delta and Delta’s reputation. Big time. Public confidence in an airline is critical, and I would go further to say that customer-facing jobs and jobs involving the safety and reputation of an airline are held to an even higher standard. So, if you have a pilot clandestinely trying to snap pics of a flight attendant’s rear, legs, breasts, crotch - regardless of gender, regardless of sexual orientation and regardless of relationship status - you are representing Delta by virtue of wearing the Delta pilot uniform. By the way, the policy doesn’t ask much other than to be respectful to others and to treat other people how you’d like to be treated. Apparently that’s an outrage to some on this board….

zeke wrote:
Doberdawg wrote:
He was wearing his Delta uniform, and if he was dead heading as per the pilot CBA he was getting paid an hourly rate by Delta. The Code of Ethics is applicable.


He could have been off duty going home, he could be gay, the FA could be his partner.
 
Doberdawg
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:45 am

Are you serious? If not, haha, however, if you are stating this in all seriousness, I refer you back to the questions posed in the Code of Ethics. None of the scenarios you mention are in alignment with that policy and so the pilot is subject to disciplinary action up to and including termination of employment.

The pilot was wearing his uniform, and whether he is on the clock or off, that uniform represents Delta and Delta’s reputation. Big time. Public confidence in an airline is critical, and I would go further to say that customer-facing jobs and jobs involving the safety and reputation of an airline are held to an even higher standard. So, if you have a pilot clandestinely trying to snap pics of a flight attendant’s rear, legs, breasts, crotch - regardless of gender, regardless of sexual orientation and regardless of relationship status - you are representing Delta by virtue of wearing the Delta pilot uniform. By the way, the policy doesn’t ask much other than to be respectful to others and to treat other people how you’d like to be treated. Apparently that’s an outrage to some on this board….

zeke wrote:
Doberdawg wrote:
He was wearing his Delta uniform, and if he was dead heading as per the pilot CBA he was getting paid an hourly rate by Delta. The Code of Ethics is applicable.


He could have been off duty going home, he could be gay, the FA could be his partner.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:59 am

andrew50 wrote:
Has anyone ever seen the sometimes pretty risqué photos of flight attendants in full uniform on Instagram? There are several different sites.

And FAs have been fired for that.

Here is a Delta FA fired in 2004 pictures.

https://creativeloafing.com/content-171 ... -racy-pics

Here is another FA who got in trouble for pics.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nation ... -1.2239204

And this pilot was fired. So for all of you naysayers. I think DL HR and Legal know more than all of us.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2022 ... attendant/
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:48 am

zeke wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Illegal action is not a prereq for just cause termination. Re-read the ethics policy posted above. Damage to organization and/or making other employees feel uncomfortable all fly under unprofessional conduct as well.


Just cause termination does not mean knee jerk reactions to satisfy a news cycle. As I posted above it was reported the pilot was already terminated.

Just cause termination requires many checks and balances upon an employer, which includes a fair and balanced application of policy, and a fair and balanced investigation.

The burden of proof for just cause this with employer, and many just cause terminations get overturned in court.


‘Knee jerk reactions to satisfy news cycle’ are not how professional HR departments deal with rank and file misconduct issues. As you say, there is an investigative process, consultation with Legal, etc. I already posted upthread what we would typically look at in a case like this involving video, and why misconduct enforcement would be apply.

It bears repeating such investigations are only necessary when adults fail to behave.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:50 am

zeke wrote:
Doberdawg wrote:
He was wearing his Delta uniform, and if he was dead heading as per the pilot CBA he was getting paid an hourly rate by Delta. The Code of Ethics is applicable.


He could have been off duty going home, he could be gay, the FA could be his partner.


On/off duty is not relevant per the policy guidelines signed to at employment. Being gay and/or filming a romantic partner working for another airline would obviously shake out in fact-finding, but seem irrelevant based on what’s known here.
 
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zeke
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:41 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Courts don’t have jurisdiction in this case.


Oh please, of course there will be aspects which could be heard in a court.

Doberdawg wrote:
I refer you back to the questions posed in the Code of Ethics.


All I see is a cropped 2"x2" square that says site cannot be reached when I try and open it up. There have been many images linked onthis thread incorrectly.

Boof02671 wrote:
And this pilot was fired. So for all of you naysayers. I think DL HR and Legal know more than all of us.


I posted a couple of pages back that the pilot was fired, a point a raised earlier is the airline cannot just terminate the pilot like a light switch as no crime was committed.

The first step the airline would need to do is to work out when/where this happened, who they were, then the airline would need to make contact and stand them down on full pay and formally advise them they are subject to a disciplinary action for employee misconduct.

The airline will have to go through a fair investigation (which would include an interview with the employee with their representative), apply policy fairly, and the punishment has to be proportionate.

Aaron747 wrote:
As you say, there is an investigative process, consultation with Legal, etc. I already posted upthread what we would typically look at in a case like this involving video, and why misconduct enforcement would be apply.


This was raised on March 29, it was in the news April 1 he was fired, the timeline is too fast.

Aaron747 wrote:
seem irrelevant based on what’s known here.


We dont know anything in reality, no idea of the flight involved, the people involved, who took the video etc.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:50 am

amax1977 wrote:
Was what he did creepy? In my opinion yes. Was it illegal? No.
If the matter is taken to the court, Delta won’t have a smoking gun to fire the guy. All he did was he took photos in public place with no faces showed in the picture while he was off duty. Nothing illegal about it.

Guys have been taken to court, and lost, for harassment for actions "not as bad" as this one; it all depends if the FA wants to file.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:53 am

Boof02671 wrote:
amax1977 wrote:
Was what he did creepy? In my opinion yes. Was it illegal? No.
If the matter is taken to the court, Delta won’t have a smoking gun to fire the guy. All he did was he took photos in public place with no faces showed in the picture while he was off duty. Nothing illegal about it.

What you don’t get it has NOTHING to do with illegal.

Delta pilots are unionized and work under a CBA.

It doesn’t go to court, it goes to the grievance procedure. A court would throw it out as he had to follow the CBA and grievance procedure which is under the Federal Law, the Railway Labor Act. Courts don’t have Jurisdiction.

And did you even read Delta’s policy?

They can fire him and it would be for Just Cause as anyone working under a CBA the company must follow Just Cause for termination.

He clearly was in violation.

He was in uniform, he was either using jumpseat privileges or pass riding, both are Benefits he gets working for Delta.

The policy clearly says on or off duty.

Many “Karen’s and Ken’s” have been fired for their behavior off the job which weren’t illegal acts.

I can’t believe people defending him.

What would you do if that was your wife, mother, sister or girlfriend?

He clearly hid the phone under his Kindle while taking inappropriate pictures.

I was a union rep for 20 years at US Airways, I’ve seen people be terminated for less. He clearly violated Delta’s policy.

Even spoke to two Delta FAs and they wouldn’t want to work with that pilot and they both said Delta would take action up to termination.

Read this again.

Image

And here is their full policy and it states on or off duty.

https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... 282016.pdf

There are 2 potential consequences to his action, unrelated to one another:
- a professional one, brought by his employer, as you mentioned;
- potential a criminal one if what he did can be classified as illegal; I see it as harassment, others don't. Let the FA who was photographed decide if she wants to follow suit.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:17 am

zeke wrote:
This was raised on March 29, it was in the news April 1 he was fired, the timeline is too fast.


This is not necessarily too fast - it depends on the capability of the organization. 2.5 business days is plenty of time for HR with proper contingency planning. Pulling up the commute flight information and identifying employees at the other carrier could be accomplished via a few phone calls.

Video evidence can dramatically speed up a decision-making process if Legal or PR executives get involved. Not in an airline, but within similar customer-facing circumstances I have been involved in terminations that went from initial report to conclusion in 2 business days via social media reports. When the investigation needs to be completed ASAP due to pressure from upstairs, the HR and PR teams (+ union reps if necessary) simply coordinate and work crazy overnighters following leads and doing verification reporting until the process is resolved.

zeke wrote:

We dont know anything in reality, no idea of the flight involved, the people involved, who took the video etc.


I don't know how things work in your organization overseas, but in the US if Legal wants information ASAP, they get it. Other department managers drop their priorities to get it. Whatever you think 'we' don't know, rest assured Delta HR/Legal knew everything within a few hours. We're not talking about a fly by night operation here - this is a large corporation with a seasoned and highly robust corporate response capability.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:34 am

Courts don’t have jurisdiction under the RLA. It has to go the grievance procedure. Last step is arbitration and you normally can’t sue after and an arbitration.

Unless it violated the Federal Arbitration Act

This is how it works in the United States of America for unionized airline employees who have a Collective Bargaining Agreement. It follows the grievance procedure in the contract and under the RLA.

Judges in the Court system don’t like to overrule arbitration cases nor even hear the case.

I handled representation for over 20 years in the airlines. I do know what I’m talking about.

Here is a copy of Delta’s ethics policy.

https://s2.q4cdn.com/181345880/files/do ... 282016.pdf

It clearly states off duty on page 34.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:10 am

Sadly such voyeuristic movies and photo taking has become too easy for anyone to do, expanded in access due to technology including social media that have evolved faster than society has been able to deal with. Postings of this garbage are very easy to find on the internet. Some who do this can make money from it like paparazzi who seek such photos of celebrity women. It is a form of illegal pornography. There is no consent involved, is done in public or private places and destroys personal privacy and security rights. It can involve minors which is clearly illegal in the USA. In this case, there is the potential of legal costs, money damages, losing good employees who cost a lot to replace, damage the trust necessary to do their job safely.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:43 am

Aaron747 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Some patently false statements here. It is a crime to take photos in public with indecent intent in many jurisdictions.


The incident at hand would not, in my opinion, be illegal under the Florida voyeurism statute discussed in the above articles.


As I already stated in my last reply, whether or not the action was criminal has no bearing on internal determinations via HR investigation. The only thing that matters is if professional conduct standards were violated and if so, to what extent they present demonstrable risk or reputational harm to the organization. Anything meeting those criteria is typically a terminable offense.


...except you quite literally made the argument that "it is a crime to take photos in public with indecent intent," which implies you do consider it relevant.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:57 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:

The incident at hand would not, in my opinion, be illegal under the Florida voyeurism statute discussed in the above articles.


As I already stated in my last reply, whether or not the action was criminal has no bearing on internal determinations via HR investigation. The only thing that matters is if professional conduct standards were violated and if so, to what extent they present demonstrable risk or reputational harm to the organization. Anything meeting those criteria is typically a terminable offense.


...except you quite literally made the argument that "it is a crime to take photos in public with indecent intent," which implies you do consider it relevant.


Negative - I was correcting the statement in reply 86 that erroneously made the generalization It isn't a normal or appropriate thing to do but it also isn't a crime. I was pointing out that leery voyeuristic photography is considered a crime in some jurisdictions. If you read the entire response, you'd note all of my comments regarding employee penalties were focused on professionalism and reputational harm, not crime.
 
Redd
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:43 pm

There are consequences for every action. To be daft enough to do something like what the pilot did in a world where everyone carries a camera, and especially in the USA that is over-hypersensitive, over-politically correct, uber-woke and ready to cancel any white straight man for much lesser transgressions, shows a total lack of judgment and thought clarity

If this was 20+ years ago, I'd be for giving him a stern warning, sending him to some group AA-type meetings for creepy jack-asses, and giving him a chance to redeem himself.

But the fact that he did this it today's world, especially in the USA, is worse that what he actually did. IMO anyway.

I'm not for taking away people's livelihoods, as I think it will lead to some much worse consequences in the future, but I don't know if I'd trust the judgment of a pilot that can do something so stupid.
 
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cjg225
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:15 pm

USAirKid wrote:
The way this was put on twitter was the twitter equivalent of mouthing the words in a room to prevent people from hearing it, but to communicate with one person specifically. Since there was an @Delta at the beginning of the tweet and @FlyFrontier, by default it doesn’t go into anyone’s feed, except Delta’s and Frontier’s. Someone other than the poster would’ve had to put effort to find this and publicize it. So claiming that the twitter filmer was doing this for attention is incorrect. How they did it would’ve garnered no attention by default, it was simply a way to send a video to delta quickly and easily.

Additionally the twitter user in question has 10 or so followers at this time. By twitter standards that’s nothing. So claiming wjcandee, claiming that this was for attention by the twitter poster is off the mark.

Who cares how many followers this person has?

Delta and Frontier have a LOT. And the way this message was sent, it would be seen by tens of thousands of people quite quickly, and then go viral.

What was suggested earlier is one of a handful of correct ways. Talk to a Frontier rep after the flight. Or, if the person sticks with Twitter, DM it to Delta and Frontier. There was no need to throw this out into the ether for everyone to see.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:36 pm

cjg225 wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
The way this was put on twitter was the twitter equivalent of mouthing the words in a room to prevent people from hearing it, but to communicate with one person specifically. Since there was an @Delta at the beginning of the tweet and @FlyFrontier, by default it doesn’t go into anyone’s feed, except Delta’s and Frontier’s. Someone other than the poster would’ve had to put effort to find this and publicize it. So claiming that the twitter filmer was doing this for attention is incorrect. How they did it would’ve garnered no attention by default, it was simply a way to send a video to delta quickly and easily.

Additionally the twitter user in question has 10 or so followers at this time. By twitter standards that’s nothing. So claiming wjcandee, claiming that this was for attention by the twitter poster is off the mark.

Who cares how many followers this person has?

Delta and Frontier have a LOT. And the way this message was sent, it would be seen by tens of thousands of people quite quickly, and then go viral.

What was suggested earlier is one of a handful of correct ways. Talk to a Frontier rep after the flight. Or, if the person sticks with Twitter, DM it to Delta and Frontier. There was no need to throw this out into the ether for everyone to see.

It was actually posted on Reddit first by the person who caught him. Not on Twitter.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:13 pm

VDemerest wrote:
The actions in this video are disturbing, unprofessional and perverse. This profession employs a fair number of oddballs, this guy included.


This isn't exclusive to pilots, come on. Every walk of life has them.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:17 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
VDemerest wrote:
The actions in this video are disturbing, unprofessional and perverse. This profession employs a fair number of oddballs, this guy included.


This isn't exclusive to pilots, come on. Every walk of life has them.


Agree, that didn't make any sense.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:23 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
Let's be clear. It does not matter whether what he did was legal or not. There is no right to be a creep. He is/was an at will employee, and if you do something like this to embarrass your company you can (and probably will) be fired.

If you have a burning desire to look at pictures like this I'm sure you can find ample places online to do so.

Actually he wasn’t an employee at will. Delta’s pilots are unionized (ALPA) and work under a Collective Bargaining Agreement. When Delta fired him they have to follow Just Cause
 
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cjg225
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:16 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
It was actually posted on Reddit first by the person who caught him. Not on Twitter.

Yikes. Even better... :shock:
 
art
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:24 pm

Sorry, have only read some responses. If looking at a woman's figure is not perverted, why is photographing a woman's figure perverted?
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:29 pm

art wrote:
Sorry, have only read some responses. If looking at a woman's figure is not perverted, why is photographing a woman's figure perverted?

Really?

Did you watch the video?

He was taking inappropriate pics, he hid his phone under his kindle while napping said pics.

It simply amazes me how people think this is no big deal and defend him.

She wasn’t a model nor was she posing for him to take pics.

Big difference.

SMH.
 
art
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:48 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
art wrote:
Sorry, have only read some responses. If looking at a woman's figure is not perverted, why is photographing a woman's figure perverted?

Really?

Did you watch the video?

He was taking inappropriate pics, he hid his phone under his kindle while napping said pics.

It simply amazes me how people think this is no big deal and defend him.

She wasn’t a model nor was she posing for him to take pics.

Big difference.

SMH.


I did not defend the man. I asked why if looking at a woman was not perverted, photographing the same should be so.

However, I do agree that courtesy demands one should ask permission before photographing someone. I imagine the FA would have refused permission to have her posterior photographed, had she been asked if it were OK to photograph her (normally clothed) posterior.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:54 pm

planecane wrote:
I think there is a bit of an overreaction here. What he was doing is certainly inappropriate and disrespectful but throwing around words like "perverse" and "disturbing" is a little much. Even the tweet saying he was creating an unsafe work environment is over the top.

If he had his phone down on the floor and was trying to take upskirt pictures then those words would be appropriate. If he was making lewd comments or gestures or making contact with her then those words are appropriate.

If she was a member of his crew or even if it was on another Delta flight then you could make the case that he violated Delta's sexual harassment policies. Taking a picture of a fully clothed flight attendant from another airline and not doing anything else doesn't rise to the level of "perverse" or "disturbing" or warrant losing a job.

I'm sure that thousands of passengers have done this and they wouldn't face consequences if they were caught.



I agree. Words need to have meaning. Perverse should be used to reflect something that’s, well, perverse. When I think of perverse and disturbing, I think of abusing a child, rape or sexual deviancy. The worst of the worst. The words people are using aren’t appropriate for the situation. Unprofessional and potentially concerning comes to mind. People rattle off these extremes all the time and they eventually lose meaning. Kind of like how we label everyone a hero. The word has been dumbed down so much that it essentially means nothing.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Sun Apr 03, 2022 11:06 pm

art wrote:
Sorry, have only read some responses. If looking at a woman's figure is not perverted, why is photographing a woman's figure perverted?


Looking is one thing, leering is another. Ask any woman to explain the difference, and they will.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:49 am

This has been pretty-well ventilated, now. Maybe some minds have been changed, maybe not.

I think the consensus is that most likely no criminal offense occurred. However, for a variety of reasons, including policy violations and general creepiness exposed, the guy is now being investigated, subject to discipline, and, by some accounts, already terminated. If the latter, that's probably the start of a little more legal la-di-dah, which would play out over some period of time.

So it seems like everything that could have been said about all this has been said in these 196 posts.

Giggedy.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:41 am

wjcandee wrote:
This has been pretty-well ventilated, now. Maybe some minds have been changed, maybe not.

I think the consensus is that most likely no criminal offense occurred. However, for a variety of reasons, including policy violations and general creepiness exposed, the guy is now being investigated, subject to discipline, and, by some accounts, already terminated. If the latter, that's probably the start of a little more legal la-di-dah, which would play out over some period of time.

So it seems like everything that could have been said about all this has been said in these 196 posts.

Giggedy.

He was terminated Friday and the Frontier Flight Attendant has retained a lawyer.

They even found his Facebook page and it was spread around.
 
art
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:58 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
art wrote:
Sorry, have only read some responses. If looking at a woman's figure is not perverted, why is photographing a woman's figure perverted?


Looking is one thing, leering is another. Ask any woman to explain the difference, and they will.


I shared apartments or houses with many women in my time (being the only male sharing with one or many females) and, agreed, they would distinguish between being conscious of being admired visually and being conscious of being leered at. Which one was the case here? If the FA was not aware of being photographed, how could she be conscious of being admired or leered at? How could she be made to feel uncomfortable if she was being photographed surrepticiously?

Genuine queries. For the record, I cannot see myself ever doing what the pilot did. I would feel bound to ask for permission... but then that would very likely make the woman concerned feel uncomfortable, so I would not ask and I would not do.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Pilot caught taking pics of FA

Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:08 pm

art wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
art wrote:
Sorry, have only read some responses. If looking at a woman's figure is not perverted, why is photographing a woman's figure perverted?


Looking is one thing, leering is another. Ask any woman to explain the difference, and they will.


I shared apartments or houses with many women in my time (being the only male sharing with one or many females) and, agreed, they would distinguish between being conscious of being admired visually and being conscious of being leered at. Which one was the case here? If the FA was not aware of being photographed, how could she be conscious of being admired or leered at? How could she be made to feel uncomfortable if she was being photographed surrepticiously?

Genuine queries. For the record, I cannot see myself ever doing what the pilot did. I would feel bound to ask for permission... but then that would very likely make the woman concerned feel uncomfortable, so I would not ask and I would not do.


The issue isn't really what the FA knew/didn't know was going on - that is peripheral to the primary matter.

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