Why is Hungary still in NATO and the European Union? The Hungarian people, after reelecting Victor Orban don't seem to share western values. Why do they even want to be in NATO and the European Union?

Did the Hungarian people reelect Orban or did Orban's party select Orban to be in power indefinitely? If they are taken out of NATO, the right wing media and Republicans in the United States would have a field day. The endless howling and whining would be epic. How dare Biden decide for the world and Biden is a tyrant and Biden is evil and so on and so forth.

There should be conditions set for NATO and EU membership. Like actual democracy, among others.

Perhaps Viktor wants to join Vladimir in his new Soviet Empire one day.

Slowly eroding free/opposition press etc.

One thing he hasn't got to do like his mates Vlad and Xi is to extend the maximum time he's allowed to be re-elected (unless I missed that?)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... l-election

seb146 wrote:

There should be conditions set for NATO and EU membership. Like actual democracy, among others.

There are set conditions for EU membership, the problem is how to let countries comply to the set of rules after they have become a member. The EU is very complex, in the end, we will get there, but it takes time.

victrola wrote:

Why is Hungary still in NATO and the European Union? The Hungarian people, after reelecting Victor Orban don't seem to share western values. Why do they even want to be in NATO and the European Union?

The EU question is clear: they're in for the money and those juicy foreign investment. Mercedes, Audi, Suzuki and many more component manufacturers have set up shop there. Samsung, Foxconn etc. also make a lot of electronics in Hungary. Those investments would not make sense unless they could sell EU-wide.

Yes.
The harsh point is that I don't think EU ever implemented (ever thought of either) harsh mecanisms for countries that deviate from the entry criterias after getting in.
And implementing them now is extremely problematic with the set voting rules.
Hungary knows this all too well.

I say kick them out of NATO and the European Union. If that is their attitude, then their future belongs with Serbia, Belarus, and Russia. The defense of Hungary is not worth the blood of one single NATO soldier.

victrola wrote:

I say kick them out of NATO and the European Union. If that is their attitude, then their future belongs with Serbia, Belarus, and Russia. The defense of Hungary is not worth the blood of one single NATO soldier.

Serbia have maintained distance from Belarus and Russia although they also have different foreign policy and values from European Union. Yet completely grouping Serbia with enemy states will further destabilize Bosnia.

victrola wrote:

The defense of Hungary is not worth the blood of one single NATO soldier.

Interesting statement. I don’t think the Trump administration was less right-wing populistic. Should the US also have been kicked out? Oh….. wait…

victrola wrote:

I say kick them out of NATO and the European Union. If that is their attitude, then their future belongs with Serbia, Belarus, and Russia. The defense of Hungary is not worth the blood of one single NATO soldier.

Kicking them out of the EU would not be a bad idea for the EU.

I am not sure that kicking them out of NATO would be good for NATO. It would completely cut the land link for all countries east of Croatia and south of Slovakia. The only way around would be to make Ukraine, Serbia or Bosnia members. If current affairs have shown us anything, it's that NATO won't touch Ukraine with a bargepole. And I am not sure the political situation in Bosnia or Serbia are any better then Hungary.

Even with Bosia and/or Serbia in the alliance, troop movements would have to go the long way around through France (assuming Switerland and Austria maintain their neutrality).

marcelh wrote:

victrola wrote:

The defense of Hungary is not worth the blood of one single NATO soldier.

Interesting statement. I don’t think the Trump administration was less right-wing populistic. Should the US also have been kicked out? Oh….. wait…

You have no understanding of the situation in Hungary. Although Trump was a right-wing populist blowhard, the US remained a democracy with a free press and free and fair elections. The situation in somewhat different in Hungary.


https://freedomhouse.org/country/hungar ... world/2021

victrola wrote:

the US remained a democracy with a free press and free and fair elections.

Not for a lack of trying by team Trump though.

petertenthije wrote:

victrola wrote:

the US remained a democracy with a free press and free and fair elections.

Not for a lack of trying by team Trump though.

We have been lucky so far. If he gets elected in 2024, then we will be in the same boat as Hungary,

petertenthije wrote:

victrola wrote:

the US remained a democracy with a free press and free and fair elections.

Not for a lack of trying by team Trump though.

The US has over 230 years of experience with checks and balances in its government. The system is designed to withstand having corrupt or evil people holding government offices.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

The US has over 230 years of experience with checks and balances in its government. The system is designed to withstand having corrupt or evil people holding government offices.

Is it though? The Constitution is just merely a piece of paper that requires the faith of its people to be valuable. Lots of governments throughout time have had similar documents that also required such similar faith from the people also failed. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to suggest the US Constitution will avoid such a failure. In fact, with each passing day, I become more and more convinced that the US Constitution will fail during my lifetime. Our Senate is a pathetic joke of a legislative body, less valuable than the documents that create it. Our House isn't much better. Our media is lazy and too capitalistic. Cops have been given an obscene amount of power to abuse and be corrupt without fear of punishment. I don't have much hope for the future of the USA.

LittleFokker wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

The US has over 230 years of experience with checks and balances in its government. The system is designed to withstand having corrupt or evil people holding government offices.

Is it though? The Constitution is just merely a piece of paper that requires the faith of its people to be valuable. Lots of governments throughout time have had similar documents that also required such similar faith from the people also failed. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to suggest the US Constitution will avoid such a failure. In fact, with each passing day, I become more and more convinced that the US Constitution will fail during my lifetime. Our Senate is a pathetic joke of a legislative body, less valuable than the documents that create it. Our House isn't much better. Our media is lazy and too capitalistic. Cops have been given an obscene amount of power to abuse and be corrupt without fear of punishment. I don't have much hope for the future of the USA.

It's not just a legal document. Millions of US citizens believe in it and support it and oppose politicians who want to weaken its provisions. The US Senate is not a rubber stamp. It is deliberately intended that legislation is hard to pass in the Senate. It isn't intended to respond quickly to all the fads and trends in society.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

LittleFokker wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

The US has over 230 years of experience with checks and balances in its government. The system is designed to withstand having corrupt or evil people holding government offices.

Is it though? The Constitution is just merely a piece of paper that requires the faith of its people to be valuable. Lots of governments throughout time have had similar documents that also required such similar faith from the people also failed. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to suggest the US Constitution will avoid such a failure. In fact, with each passing day, I become more and more convinced that the US Constitution will fail during my lifetime. Our Senate is a pathetic joke of a legislative body, less valuable than the documents that create it. Our House isn't much better. Our media is lazy and too capitalistic. Cops have been given an obscene amount of power to abuse and be corrupt without fear of punishment. I don't have much hope for the future of the USA.

It's not just a legal document. Millions of US citizens believe in it and support it and oppose politicians who want to weaken its provisions. The US Senate is not a rubber stamp. It is deliberately intended that legislation is hard to pass in the Senate. It isn't intended to respond quickly to all the fads and trends in society.

Some right wing states are taking advantage of the Electoral College and making sure only the far right wing extremists are elected and supported. Look at extremely strict voting laws in Texas, Idaho, South Dakota and Georgia and bills being proposed in Michigan and Pennsylvania by far right wing extremists. These bills will ensure far right wing extremists will be selected to the Electoral College to ensure the far right wing extremists will win, as opposed to who We The People want.

seb146 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

LittleFokker wrote:

Is it though? The Constitution is just merely a piece of paper that requires the faith of its people to be valuable. Lots of governments throughout time have had similar documents that also required such similar faith from the people also failed. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to suggest the US Constitution will avoid such a failure. In fact, with each passing day, I become more and more convinced that the US Constitution will fail during my lifetime. Our Senate is a pathetic joke of a legislative body, less valuable than the documents that create it. Our House isn't much better. Our media is lazy and too capitalistic. Cops have been given an obscene amount of power to abuse and be corrupt without fear of punishment. I don't have much hope for the future of the USA.

It's not just a legal document. Millions of US citizens believe in it and support it and oppose politicians who want to weaken its provisions. The US Senate is not a rubber stamp. It is deliberately intended that legislation is hard to pass in the Senate. It isn't intended to respond quickly to all the fads and trends in society.

Some right wing states are taking advantage of the Electoral College and making sure only the far right wing extremists are elected and supported. Look at extremely strict voting laws in Texas, Idaho, South Dakota and Georgia and bills being proposed in Michigan and Pennsylvania by far right wing extremists. These bills will ensure far right wing extremists will be selected to the Electoral College to ensure the far right wing extremists will win, as opposed to who We The People want.

I live in Texas. It is very easy to vote. All that is required is to be a US citizen, a resident of Texas, over the age of 18, not disqualified by being a convicted felon, registered to vote, and possessing one of several kinds government issued of photo ID's that are either current or have been expired less than 4 years. I have been an election clerk, election judge, or alternate judge several times. Each party is allowed to have an election judge or alternate judge in every voting location of the state. Every election judge or alternate judge I have met supports the ID requirements. In addition to voting on election day, Texas has 12 days of in person early voting. That is 2 business weeks plus 1 weekend.

seb146 wrote:

Some right wing states are taking advantage of the Electoral College and making sure only the far right wing extremists are elected and supported. Look at extremely strict voting laws in Texas, Idaho, South Dakota and Georgia and bills being proposed in Michigan and Pennsylvania by far right wing extremists. These bills will ensure far right wing extremists will be selected to the Electoral College to ensure the far right wing extremists will win, as opposed to who We The People want.

The electoral college only applies to the vote for president. All but 2 states have "winner take all" rules for allocating electoral votes. Whoever wins the popular vote in a state, wins all of the electors in that state. Each party nominates a slate of electors to represent its party in the electoral college in case their party's nominee wins the popular vote in that state. This applies to Texas as well as California and New York.

Hungary should adhere to the rules of the European Union or get out. Nobody is forcing them to be EU members? Victor Orban's trashing of Zelinsky disgusts me. I guess he just wants to be in the good graces of his good buddy Vladimir Putin.

At this point I don't get what he or Hungary wants, it makes no sense. He acts more like Trump rather than Putin.

Vintage wrote:

Aesma wrote:

At this point I don't get what he or Hungary wants, it makes no sense. He acts more like Trump rather than Putin.

Hungarians want a "strong" man to protect them, like daddy did when they were children.
Same thing with the Trumpsters, it's an emotional thing, not an intellectual choice.

I have definitely noticed this as well. It also seems like they prefer folks who speak in black and white terms only. Literally like children

Vintage wrote:

Aesma wrote:

At this point I don't get what he or Hungary wants, it makes no sense. He acts more like Trump rather than Putin.

Hungarians want a "strong" man to protect them, like daddy did when they were children.
Same thing with the Trumpsters, it's an emotional thing, not an intellectual choice.

I do not speak Hungarian, so I have not heard any of Orban's speeches. What I have noticed is the Republicans here in the USA (they praise Orban, so hear me out) have started to follow male leaders who speak in terms of "I" and not "we". "I will fix this problem" or "I will build this" or "I will end that". Anyone fluent in Hungarian hear that with Orban?

EU launches process to slash Hungary’s funds over rule-of-law breaches.

There you go, the EU is pushing Hungary to either shape up or learn to live with the consequences.

victrola wrote:

Why is Hungary still in NATO and the European Union? The Hungarian people, after reelecting Victor Orban don't seem to share western values. Why do they even want to be in NATO and the European Union?

You can say the same about Turkey and NATO, and Poland and the EU. They are doing what they think is best for themselves.

Kiwirob wrote:

victrola wrote:

Why is Hungary still in NATO and the European Union? The Hungarian people, after reelecting Victor Orban don't seem to share western values. Why do they even want to be in NATO and the European Union?

You can say the same about Turkey and NATO, and Poland and the EU. They are doing what they think is best for themselves.

They want all of the benefits of membership without the responsibilities.

victrola wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

victrola wrote:

Why is Hungary still in NATO and the European Union? The Hungarian people, after reelecting Victor Orban don't seem to share western values. Why do they even want to be in NATO and the European Union?

You can say the same about Turkey and NATO, and Poland and the EU. They are doing what they think is best for themselves.

They want all of the benefits of membership without the responsibilities.

Like the UK did and we saw it ended up for them. Of course, their own political parties hastened the process.

An e.g. of what I mean, making policies without understanding the fallout -

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/202 ... nds-report

petertenthije wrote:

victrola wrote:

the US remained a democracy with a free press and free and fair elections.

Not for a lack of trying by team Trump though.

Well, for an authoritarian who was destroying free speech, the fact that media coverage was nearly uniformly anti-Trump to the point of media blackouts on Trump Administration accomplishments (and now, increasing evidence of media connivance with political opponents) statements like yours increasingly factually untenable.

victrola wrote:

They want all of the benefits of membership without the responsibilities.

Well, that's certainly a unique problem in NATO.

Vintage wrote:

That seems pretty limp-wristed; it also doesn't address the fact that he's thrown in with Putin.

If the EU has painted itself in a corner and left Orbán the power any meaningful sanction, then I believe the EU needs to recognize that the EU is fatally flawed as is. The EU needs to disband itself and immediately create a new EU, assuming all the debts and responsibilities of the old but without giving veto power for expulsion to members.

The first order of business for the new EU would be to expel Hungary.

Then what's the point of a continental alliance?

Yeah, it should have been a more organic, bottom-up, constellation of project specific enterprises than a finely crafted, brilliantly designed and utterly not fit to task bureaucracy, but then it wouldn't have been a Franco-German vanity project anymore, ne pas?

Aesma wrote:

At this point I don't get what he or Hungary wants, it makes no sense. He acts more like Trump rather than Putin.

One significant issue I've heard is that the Ukrainian language rules designed to suppress the use of Russian in Ukraine (or promote a lingua franca depending on your stance) also have hit the Hungarian minority. Now, the facts of life for 150,000 Transcarpathians might seem to be small potatoes, but protecting their linguistic rights is a popular stance in Hungary.

FlapOperator wrote:

petertenthije wrote:

victrola wrote:

the US remained a democracy with a free press and free and fair elections.

Not for a lack of trying by team Trump though.

Well, for an authoritarian who was destroying free speech, the fact that media coverage was nearly uniformly anti-Trump to the point of media blackouts on Trump Administration accomplishments (and now, increasing evidence of media connivance with political opponents) statements like yours increasingly factually untenable.

Stop perpetuating the nonsense that the media was "nearly uniformly anti-Trump" There was plenty of pro Trump propaganda on FOX, OAN and other outlets. Furthermore, I believe that any reasonable person would agree that Trump and his cronies' attempts to overthrow the results of a free and fair election is a very bad thing. Or are you one of those people who believes the complete nonsense that the 2020 election was rigged? Anyone who believes the 2020 election was rigged is deranged and not fit for political office.

victrola wrote:

They want all of the benefits of membership without the responsibilities.

Who they?

Orban and his buddies, of course. The population, it's not as simple as that. How can they really understand what's at stake when, based on what I've heard by foreign reporters in the country, the population get hammered by the government propaganda like in Russia, because there aren't that many independant medias, like in Russia, they get closed. So those who only get access to news throught TV or radio, they are stuck with all the BS of the govenment. Also don't forget that Hungary is not an old democracy.

Vintage wrote:

Have you heard the story about the Russians in Texas, who in spite of access to western media, still are strong supporters of Putin and the invasion of Ukraine?

No. Still, it's not the same to not have a choice and be hammered by propaganda and having a choice, even abroad, and supporting the bad guy anyway, probably out of patriotism.

Vintage wrote:

There are people who like fascism; apparently it makes them feel safer to have a strong man at the top.

Indeed some are like that.

Vintage wrote:

Hungary needs to go their own way. They don't belong in the EU or NATO.

I thought your crystal ball didn't work very well of late.

I'm sure they really don't care, but if Hungary keeps going farther and farther right, will that have an effect on their tourism industry? Budapest is the end of a lot of Danube river cruises, which dumps a lot of money into the economy.

Vintage wrote:

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

the population get hammered by the government propaganda like in Russia, because there aren't that many independant medias, like in Russia, they get closed. So those who only get access to news throught TV or radio, they are stuck with all the BS of the govenment. Also don't forget that Hungary is not an old democracy.

Have you heard the story about the Russians in Texas, who in spite of access to western media, still are strong supporters of Putin and the invasion of Ukraine? There are people who like fascism; apparently it makes them feel safer to have a strong man at the top.

Hungary needs to go their own way. They don't belong in the EU or NATO.

By Russians did you mean republicans? Because you just described republicans.

victrola wrote:

The defense of Hungary is not worth the blood of one single NATO soldier.

Wouldn't be surprised if Hungary eventually decides to leave NATO. It's nearly surrounded by NATO or neutral countries in all borders, except for small parts with Serbia and Ukraine. Hungary poses no threat to either block and can still benefit indirectly from being within NATO's orbit (similar to how Sweden and Finland are also guarded).

einsteinboricua wrote:

Hungary poses no threat to either block and can still benefit indirectly from being within NATO's orbit (similar to how Sweden and Finland are also guarded).

Sweden and Finland have the same "values" as the rest of NATO. Hungary---not so much.

Vintage wrote:

Hungary can make NATO completely meaningless simply by voting no.

There is no voting or decision by majority. This means that policies decided upon by the North Atlantic Council (NAC) are supported by and are the expression of the collective will of all the sovereign states that are members of the Alliance and are accepted by all of them.

https://archives.nato.int/north-atlantic-council-4

That's a terrifying prospect... I honestly never knew it had to be unanimous.

johns624 wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

Hungary poses no threat to either block and can still benefit indirectly from being within NATO's orbit (similar to how Sweden and Finland are also guarded).

Sweden and Finland have the same "values" as the rest of NATO. Hungary---not so much.

Does Poland have the same values as the rest of EU, despite being active in NATO it’s as far right as Hungary is in respect to the EU, it’s there for the benefits but it doesn’t play ball for the rest of its obligations. What about Turkey it’s have very different values to the rest of NATO, it’s also ruled by an autocrat, it really shouldn’t be in NATO.

SEAorPWM wrote:

Vintage wrote:

Hungary can make NATO completely meaningless simply by voting no.

There is no voting or decision by majority. This means that policies decided upon by the North Atlantic Council (NAC) are supported by and are the expression of the collective will of all the sovereign states that are members of the Alliance and are accepted by all of them.

https://archives.nato.int/north-atlantic-council-4

That's a terrifying prospect... I honestly never knew it had to be unanimous.

So Finland and Sweden can forget about joining because Hungary and his best friend Putin will block it?

Hoping that isn’t the case.

Vintage wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

Does Poland have the same values as the rest of EU, despite being active in NATO it’s as far right as Hungary is in respect to the EU, it’s there for the benefits but it doesn’t play ball for the rest of its obligations. What about Turkey it’s have very different values to the rest of NATO, it’s also ruled by an autocrat, it really shouldn’t be in NATO.

I wonder what the Russian opinion on all this is.

Does it matter?