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MareBorealis wrote:THS214 wrote:davidjohnson6 wrote:
There is still a significant minority of the Finnish population who are against NATO membership - their opinions should be respected. This is a big deal for Finland - one should not underestimate its significance.
We can only decide what seems to be the right thing to do. History will decide what was the right thing to... and history won't reveal the answer for many years. The world is grey... not black and white
Disclaimer - I write this as a UK citizen who is pro NATO
In Finland 76% support Nato membership and 12% are against it. Sorry link only in Finnish https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/f ... f101f0865a
Here's the original poll in English, YLE National Broadcasting Company:
https://yle.fi/news/3-12437506
M564038 wrote:Old Gerhardsen would have been proud of NATO General secretary Jens Stoltenberg … for his role in finally uniting with the swedes on this issue;-)
petertenthije wrote:M564038 wrote:Old Gerhardsen would have been proud of NATO General secretary Jens Stoltenberg … for his role in finally uniting with the swedes on this issue;-)
I don’t think it’s fair to give the credit to Jens. Full credit has to go to Vlad.
petertenthije wrote:M564038 wrote:Old Gerhardsen would have been proud of NATO General secretary Jens Stoltenberg … for his role in finally uniting with the swedes on this issue;-)
I don’t think it’s fair to give the credit to Jens. Full credit has to go to Vlad.
“What that [response] will be – we will see what threats are created for us,” Mr Putin said. “Problems are being created for no reason at all. We shall react accordingly.”
ObadiahPlainman wrote:If Russia wants to be part of the First World Community, they should start acting like a First World Nation.Irrespective of the goings on of Finland and Sweden, the larger issue is only growing in magnitude: that Russia finds itself as a lone actor on the global stage, increasingly more isolated in a global economy and more inter-connected world. That's not healthy for anyone and the consequences could have far reaching ramifications.
davidjohnson6 wrote:Taking a different viewpoint.... I hope we are not making the same mistakes that led to the war of 1914-1918 - namely 2 rival groupings of countries in Europe that were just waiting for the tiniest spark for the flames to erupt
ObadiahPlainman wrote:Irrespective of the goings on of Finland and Sweden, the larger issue is only growing in magnitude: that Russia finds itself as a lone actor on the global stage, increasingly more isolated in a global economy and more inter-connected world. That's not healthy for anyone and the consequences could have far reaching ramifications.
ObadiahPlainman wrote:Irrespective of the goings on of Finland and Sweden, the larger issue is only growing in magnitude: that Russia finds itself as a lone actor on the global stage, increasingly more isolated in a global economy and more inter-connected world. That's not healthy for anyone and the consequences could have far reaching ramifications.
alberchico wrote:ObadiahPlainman wrote:Irrespective of the goings on of Finland and Sweden, the larger issue is only growing in magnitude: that Russia finds itself as a lone actor on the global stage, increasingly more isolated in a global economy and more inter-connected world. That's not healthy for anyone and the consequences could have far reaching ramifications.
https://www.ft.com/content/5e357d9e-671 ... 43bdbdab1d
The Financial Times had a good article on this a while back that explains why isolating Russia would be a major strategic blunder.. To summarize the main points:
1. "First, this notion will primarily benefit the Russian leader. It unwittingly gives him the legitimacy to speak on behalf of the Russian people" Anger would be directed towards the West, not Putin.
2. "Second, an isolation strategy is probably self-defeating because it closes off interest in what is happening in Russia." There are people in Russia opposed to the war, treating the entire nation with contempt will stifle those dissenting voices.
Also many nations in the non-Western world, like China and India, would not support any such policy, as well as many parts of Africa. So Russia would never be truly isolated. At worse they would end up as a weakened state totally dependent on China.
alberchico wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/AFP/status/1526251302459777025
I wonder what concessions NATO will offer to get Turkey to play ball ? If it were up to me I'd restore their F-35 orders in exchange for donating their S-400 missles to Ukraine. That was what really ruptured relations with the U.S. But then again transferring those missles to Ukraine could be a red line for Russia.
alberchico wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/AFP/status/1526251302459777025
I wonder what concessions NATO will offer to get Turkey to play ball ? If it were up to me I'd restore their F-35 orders in exchange for donating their S-400 missles to Ukraine. That was what really ruptured relations with the U.S. But then again transferring those missles to Ukraine could be a red line for Russia.
scbriml wrote:Exactly. Everyone is tired of Russian threats. They also aren't afraid of them. I found it funny that Finland's response to Russia's latest thread was the diplomatic equivalent of a yawn.alberchico wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/AFP/status/1526251302459777025
I wonder what concessions NATO will offer to get Turkey to play ball ? If it were up to me I'd restore their F-35 orders in exchange for donating their S-400 missles to Ukraine. That was what really ruptured relations with the U.S. But then again transferring those missles to Ukraine could be a red line for Russia.
1 - Who cares what Russia’s red lines are?
2 - What can they do if Turkey did cross that red line?
cpd wrote:alberchico wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/AFP/status/1526251302459777025
I wonder what concessions NATO will offer to get Turkey to play ball ? If it were up to me I'd restore their F-35 orders in exchange for donating their S-400 missles to Ukraine. That was what really ruptured relations with the U.S. But then again transferring those missles to Ukraine could be a red line for Russia.
Threaten to boot them out of NATO?
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/no- ... 5alvv.html
Why should they be trusted with F35? How do we know the technology won’t just land straight back in Russia?
Putin appears to be walking back the rhetoric of his minions.
Turkey's president has restated his opposition to Finland and Sweden joining Nato - just hours after they said they would seek membership.
Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the two Nordic nations should not bother sending delegations to convince Turkey, a key Nato member, of their bids.
He is angered by what he sees as their willingness to host Kurdish militants.
…
"Neither of these countries have a clear, open attitude towards terrorist organisation. How can we trust them?" the Turkish president said.
davidjohnson6 wrote:It all depends on what metric you use.Finland ahead of Sweden on trustworthiness, or the reverse ? Why ?
davidjohnson6 wrote:Finland ahead of Sweden on trustworthiness, or the reverse ? Why ?
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:Sweden and Finland will send in their applications tomorrow.
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1526575448645414912
and as pure coincidence the Finnish president is on an official visit in Sweden today.
https://www.facebook.com/Kungahuset/pos ... 4660791992
MareBorealis wrote:Thunderboltdrgn wrote:Sweden and Finland will send in their applications tomorrow.
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1526575448645414912
and as pure coincidence the Finnish president is on an official visit in Sweden today.
https://www.facebook.com/Kungahuset/pos ... 4660791992
A lot of symbolism there. Two close partners applying for NATO membership simultaneously. A huge change in both nations, probably more so in Sweden where non-alignment/neutrality has been an ideologial question, after 200 years of peace. Finland have had a more pragmatic approach. Putin, the great NATO ambassador, changed the public opinion in Finland faster than ever thought possible.
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:MareBorealis wrote:Thunderboltdrgn wrote:Sweden and Finland will send in their applications tomorrow.
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1526575448645414912
and as pure coincidence the Finnish president is on an official visit in Sweden today.
https://www.facebook.com/Kungahuset/pos ... 4660791992
A lot of symbolism there. Two close partners applying for NATO membership simultaneously. A huge change in both nations, probably more so in Sweden where non-alignment/neutrality has been an ideologial question, after 200 years of peace. Finland have had a more pragmatic approach. Putin, the great NATO ambassador, changed the public opinion in Finland faster than ever thought possible.
I'd say more than partners in a way. The geographical area that today is Finland was the eastern half (more or less) for 400-500 years before we lost it to Russia about 200 years ago.
There is also allot of people in Sweden with Finnish heritage
I guess that these ties still remain in a way, especially when both countries are non NATO countries..
I also think that the decision to apply for NATO membership was actually taken several weeks ago.
einsteinboricua wrote:Yeah, he hopes everyone else has as bad a memory as he has. If he says it isn't a concern, then he doesn't have to do anything about it...not that he could anyways.I find it hilarious that Putin, after years of veiled threats against Sweden and Finland for even considering joining NATO, is now saying "meh, them joining doesn't pose a threat to us"...but that was the whole reason to invade Ukraine...
Biden: US will work with Finland and Sweden in event of 'aggression'
The United States will work with Finland and Sweden in the event of the ‘threat of aggression’ while the two countries’ Nato membership is being considered, Joe Biden said.
Biden said in a statement:
Finland and Sweden are longtime, stalwart partners of the United States. By joining Nato, they will further strengthen our defence cooperation and benefit the entire Transatlantic Alliance.
The US will maintain its “robust exercise activity and presence” in the Baltic Sea region, Biden continued:
#USSKearsarge, flagship of the Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group and @22nd_MEU
, transits the Danish Straits and enters the Baltic Sea , May 14.
The Kearsarge ARG-22 MEU is entering the Baltic Sea to work with Allies and partners in ensuring security & stability in the region.
scbriml wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61472021Turkey's president has restated his opposition to Finland and Sweden joining Nato - just hours after they said they would seek membership.
Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the two Nordic nations should not bother sending delegations to convince Turkey, a key Nato member, of their bids.
He is angered by what he sees as their willingness to host Kurdish militants.
…
"Neither of these countries have a clear, open attitude towards terrorist organisation. How can we trust them?" the Turkish president said.
einsteinboricua wrote:I find it hilarious that Putin, after years of veiled threats against Sweden and Finland for even considering joining NATO, is now saying "meh, them joining doesn't pose a threat to us"...but that was the whole reason to invade Ukraine...
davidjohnson6 wrote:Erdogan's argument about Finland/Sweden is likely just a cover. Turkey has no intention of leaving NATO, and NATO has no intention of asking Turkey to leave.
We are instead into a haggling phase. Turkey wants some favour in return for not vetoing new members. The question is whether Finland and Sweden are willing, post haggling, to pay the price demanded
alberchico wrote:The Financial Times had a good article on this a while back that explains why isolating Russia would be a major strategic blunder..
alberchico wrote:A pretty big list.https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexLuck9/status/1527072363803975680
Unconfirmed but here is a list of demands that Turkey is presenting.
Kiwirob wrote:Applying is one thing getting in is another. Turkey may use it’s veto and that’s the end of it, unless Turkey is expelled.
https://www.ft.com/content/3d1ab5d0-19a ... 7b9e2be141
Kiwirob wrote:Applying is one thing getting in is another Turkey has put the brakes on a the fast track membership process.