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Aaron747
Posts: 17921
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 2:45 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Gay rights are next.


now that may be a bit more difficult, since the supreme court just recently ruled "discrimination based on homosexuality or transgender status necessarily entails discrimination based on sex; the first cannot happen without the second.”

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/1 ... 8_hfci.pdf

best regards
Thomas


Alito in the leaked draft opinion specially references the Court ruling legalising same sex marriage (Obergefell vs Hodges) being in the same vein as Roe vs Wade (ie should be overturned). Not just the right to same sex marriage, Alito also criticised Lawrence vs Texas, which overturned laws that criminalised homosexual sexual activity (yes, Texas still banned homosexual activity up until 2003).

This could be a serious wind back of gay rights as well as reproductive rights.


Alito is nakedly trying to effect a bona fide theocracy. :banghead:
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2966
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 2:46 pm

casinterest wrote:
Susan Collins has released a statement stating that Gosuch and Kavanaugh were apparently not honest in their discussions during confrimation.



What !! No !!

These Justices's opinion on Roe v. Wade have obviously "evolved" since taking office...

After all, The Clintons "evolved" on their postilion about Gay Marriage, from once supporting DOMA.

Nothing to see here...
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 2:48 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Susan Collins has released a statement stating that Gosuch and Kavanaugh were apparently not honest in their discussions during confrimation.



What !! No !!

These Justices's opinion on Roe v. Wade have obviously "evolved" since taking office...

After all, The Clintons "evolved" on their postilion about Gay Marriage, from once supporting DOMA.

Nothing to see here...


Campaign statements are not the same as statements made to Senate panels under oath. This is a junior high school-level distinction.
 
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c933103
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 2:51 pm

luckyone wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
wingman wrote:

It's a good point. This will certainly become THE rallying cry for a despondent Democratic voting block.


Looking at the conservative response to today’s news it’s almost as if they are aware about the potential for this ruling to solidify mass support for Democrats at the midterms. Overturning Roe vs Wade has been one of their main goals of the last 50 years but when it looks to be imminent they seemed muted. They are trying to make the leak of the opinion the biggest story, rather than it being the imminent overturning of women’s rights.

Well in and of itself the leak is concerning, but you're right the fact that they're seeming to focus on that and not the issue itself is potentially telling. And we could contrive many different scenarios as to why either side would want to leak it:

Dems: rally a tepid agenda and minimal enthusiasm for the guy in the White House
GOP: Distract from a potentially uneven response to Trump-endorsed candidates in today's primary, and otherwise rally a loosely coalesced voting pool
Dems: attempt to publicly pressure swing justices
GOP: Leak what they have as "final" when in reality it's gone the other way in order to be able to blame public Democratic pressure for swinging otherwise virtual judges
GOP: Take the spotlight off of Justice Thomas and his barking moonbat of a wife by giving liberals something to bray about and conservatives something to gloat about

To avoid that would it be possible to put all SC judges in something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_sequestration to avoid influence from outside opinion until they finish the decision?
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 2:55 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Susan Collins has released a statement stating that Gosuch and Kavanaugh were apparently not honest in their discussions during confrimation.



What !! No !!

These Justices's opinion on Roe v. Wade have obviously "evolved" since taking office...

After all, The Clintons "evolved" on their postilion about Gay Marriage, from once supporting DOMA.

Nothing to see here...


Campaign statements are not the same as statements made to Senate panels under oath. This is a junior high school-level distinction.

You're going to have to explain with crayons and colored blocks
 
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c933103
Posts: 6491
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 2:56 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Susan Collins has released a statement stating that Gosuch and Kavanaugh were apparently not honest in their discussions during confrimation.



What !! No !!

These Justices's opinion on Roe v. Wade have obviously "evolved" since taking office...

After all, The Clintons "evolved" on their postilion about Gay Marriage, from once supporting DOMA.

Nothing to see here...


Campaign statements are not the same as statements made to Senate panels under oath. This is a junior high school-level distinction.

What are the content of those statements? As I don't think it would be legal for a congress member to ask a judge to say they will rule some cases some ways for them to be nominated?
Last edited by c933103 on Tue May 03, 2022 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 15323
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 2:57 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:

What !! No !!

These Justices's opinion on Roe v. Wade have obviously "evolved" since taking office...

After all, The Clintons "evolved" on their postilion about Gay Marriage, from once supporting DOMA.

Nothing to see here...


Campaign statements are not the same as statements made to Senate panels under oath. This is a junior high school-level distinction.

You're going to have to explain with crayons and colored blocks



Well if their positions have "evolved" That would make them activist political operators instead of judges right?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:15 pm

Mitch McConnell i more worried about the leak itself. I suspect it is due to the precarious nature this puts the primaries and donors into .

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 627051002/


Seems a bit toxic since Mitch is blaming peoples reactions to a very polarizing decision rather than address the ruling itself and bad faith liars within his nominees to the court.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:15 pm

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:

What !! No !!

These Justices's opinion on Roe v. Wade have obviously "evolved" since taking office...

After all, The Clintons "evolved" on their postilion about Gay Marriage, from once supporting DOMA.

Nothing to see here...


Campaign statements are not the same as statements made to Senate panels under oath. This is a junior high school-level distinction.

What are the content of those statements? As I don't think it would be legal for a congress member to ask a judge to say they will rule some cases some ways for them to be nominated?


You obviously haven't watched SCOTUS confirmation hearings in the Senate. Members of Congress routinely ask nominees their opinions on precedent related to controversial issues. Nominees are generally smart people and are able to hedge/couch their answers in a way that negates firm commitment.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Tue May 03, 2022 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:18 pm

casinterest wrote:
Mitch McConnell i more worried about the leak itself. I suspect it is due to the precarious nature this puts the primaries and donors into .

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 627051002/


Seems a bit toxic since Mitch is blaming peoples reactions to a very polarizing decision rather than address the ruling itself and bad faith liars within his nominees to the court.


Of course, because McConnell doesn't want his donor pool to have face questions about stuff like this:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... ugh-debts/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09 ... tions.html
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:22 pm

Well, hey. At least we will never read anything in the news about Covid or Ukraine again.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:25 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Campaign statements are not the same as statements made to Senate panels under oath. This is a junior high school-level distinction.

What are the content of those statements? As I don't think it would be legal for a congress member to ask a judge to say they will rule some cases some ways for them to be nominated?


You obviously haven't watched SCOTUS confirmation hearings in the Senate. Members of Congress routinely ask nominees their opinions on precedent related to controversial issues. Nominees are generally smart people and are able to hedge/couch their answers in a way that negates firm commitment.


Exactly! They all had to lie about this. What a joke it all was. People are people.

I feel like maybe a national law preserving abortion rights is the way to go, anyhow. And I believe Pro-choice republicans can be the way to do that.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:27 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Mitch McConnell i more worried about the leak itself. I suspect it is due to the precarious nature this puts the primaries and donors into .

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 627051002/


Seems a bit toxic since Mitch is blaming peoples reactions to a very polarizing decision rather than address the ruling itself and bad faith liars within his nominees to the court.


Of course, because McConnell doesn't want his donor pool to have face questions about stuff like this:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... ugh-debts/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09 ... tions.html


Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:30 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Mitch McConnell i more worried about the leak itself. I suspect it is due to the precarious nature this puts the primaries and donors into .

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 627051002/


Seems a bit toxic since Mitch is blaming peoples reactions to a very polarizing decision rather than address the ruling itself and bad faith liars within his nominees to the court.


Of course, because McConnell doesn't want his donor pool to have face questions about stuff like this:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... ugh-debts/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09 ... tions.html


Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.


A leak of a preliminary legal analysis is same/worse than violence. Think about what you just said and report back after your next Sunday mass. Incredible dissonance. :boggled:
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:35 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Mitch McConnell i more worried about the leak itself. I suspect it is due to the precarious nature this puts the primaries and donors into .

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 627051002/


Seems a bit toxic since Mitch is blaming peoples reactions to a very polarizing decision rather than address the ruling itself and bad faith liars within his nominees to the court.


Of course, because McConnell doesn't want his donor pool to have face questions about stuff like this:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... ugh-debts/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09 ... tions.html


Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.



So you are saying that the Judges in the majority can be persuaded by a leak? How is it a constitutional violation thought? The vote was already taken and the opinions are being written? The clerk, printer, judge, or other official should be punished, but it is not a constitutional violation to leak a document. The bigger issue the judges need to examine is how much they are damaging women's rights to their own bodies and choices. That right there is the biggest issue of corruption present here. But we expected that with Trump's appointees right?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:35 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Well, hey. At least we will never read anything in the news about Covid or Ukraine again.


Really? This story is right beside Ukraine reporting in today's WaPo frontsheet.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:36 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Of course, because McConnell doesn't want his donor pool to have face questions about stuff like this:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... ugh-debts/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09 ... tions.html


Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.


A leak of a preliminary legal analysis is same/worse than violence. Think about what you just said and report back after your next Sunday mass. Incredible dissonance. :boggled:


Interesting, I thought what was wrong with Jan 6th was mostly not the violence, but rather the intent of a few to stop a democratic process. But that's fine, I can agree, there was no actual intent in stopping the democratic process in Jan6th then, the worse thing was the violence if that's the premise now.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:36 pm

If the case is decided as in the draft, Mississippi law will ban abortions after 15 weeks. In Norway and France, the limit is 12 weeks.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:38 pm

casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Of course, because McConnell doesn't want his donor pool to have face questions about stuff like this:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... ugh-debts/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09 ... tions.html


Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.



So you are saying that the Judges in the majority can be persuaded by a leak? How is it a constitutional violation thought? The vote was already taken and the opinions are being written? The clerk, printer, judge, or other official should be punished, but it is not a constitutional violation to leak a document. The bigger issue the judges need to examine is how much they are damaging women's rights to their own bodies and choices. That right there is the biggest issue of corruption present here. But we expected that with Trump's appointees right?


So if a jury's deliberations and verdict is leaked to the press before they ever announce it, won't you think something might happen in between if a group is against that verdict? wouldn't that group do something to change the outcome/verdict?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:39 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.


A leak of a preliminary legal analysis is same/worse than violence. Think about what you just said and report back after your next Sunday mass. Incredible dissonance. :boggled:


Interesting, I thought what was wrong with Jan 6th was mostly not the violence, but rather the intent of a few to stop a democratic process. But that's fine, I can agree, there was no actual intent in stopping the democratic process in Jan6th then, the worse thing was the violence if that's the premise now.


That statement was not made by me anywhere. Violence was obviously a means to the end you describe. No need to play coy.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:39 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If the case is decided as in the draft, Mississippi law will ban abortions after 15 weeks. In Norway and France, the limit is 12 weeks.



No.

Mississippi has trigger laws that will ban abortion outright.

https://mississippitoday.org/2022/05/02 ... tion-case/
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:39 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.



So you are saying that the Judges in the majority can be persuaded by a leak? How is it a constitutional violation thought? The vote was already taken and the opinions are being written? The clerk, printer, judge, or other official should be punished, but it is not a constitutional violation to leak a document. The bigger issue the judges need to examine is how much they are damaging women's rights to their own bodies and choices. That right there is the biggest issue of corruption present here. But we expected that with Trump's appointees right?


So if a jury's deliberations and verdict is leaked to the press before they ever announce it, won't you think something might happen in between if a group is against that verdict? wouldn't that group do something to change the outcome/verdict?


LOL how exactly would that work now?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:40 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.



So you are saying that the Judges in the majority can be persuaded by a leak? How is it a constitutional violation thought? The vote was already taken and the opinions are being written? The clerk, printer, judge, or other official should be punished, but it is not a constitutional violation to leak a document. The bigger issue the judges need to examine is how much they are damaging women's rights to their own bodies and choices. That right there is the biggest issue of corruption present here. But we expected that with Trump's appointees right?


So if a jury's deliberations and verdict is leaked to the press before they ever announce it, won't you think something might happen in between if a group is against that verdict? wouldn't that group do something to change the outcome/verdict?


The judges have decided. My guess is that it was a conservative clerk that released it to get everyone ready for what is coming down the pipe.
 
skyservice_330
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:42 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
wingman wrote:

It's a good point. This will certainly become THE rallying cry for a despondent Democratic voting block.


Looking at the conservative response to today’s news it’s almost as if they are aware about the potential for this ruling to solidify mass support for Democrats at the midterms. Overturning Roe vs Wade has been one of their main goals of the last 50 years but when it looks to be imminent they seemed muted. They are trying to make the leak of the opinion the biggest story, rather than it being the imminent overturning of women’s rights.


Its like the dog caught the car, and now doesn't know what to do. This has been their raison d'etre for the last 50 years - to roll back abortion access - and now they have succeeded with, an apparent, total overturning of Roe and you get the sense there is a bit of an 'Oh s*it, what now?' response. It would seem, I agree, that there is awareness that this could help the Democrats in the midterms.

Some other general observations, premised on the assumption that reports are true and the court will overturn Roe -

- Conservatives will, undoubtedly, feel energized by this and harness and mobilize that energy for other causes. Abortion today … gay marriage tomorrow? Civil rights? As some have alluded to, depending on the final wording and legal logic of the decision, it could have downstream implications for a whole range of social issues.

- Will this reenergize or remobilize the left? In a way, I see an analogy to the Ukraine situation. Putin was relying on a divided an otherwise passive West to enable his taking of Ukraine. In fact, the complete opposite happened. The West, NATO etc. mobilized quickly and strongly to push back. Will the overturning of Roe be the Ukraine of the culture wars for the left? Will it result in a groundswell of new and reenergized activists? Will it force the left to revisit its approach to issues - with attacks on abortion access, and potentially gay rights coming down the line via the USSC, will issues such as trans rights get put on the backburner as the battle turns to protecting wins, versus taking up new causes for minority groups?

- How will the politics of this play out? From the little bit I have read, a complete overturn of Roe goes much further than where public opinion is at - will that play a role in the midterms? Not unrelated to the politics, are the practical considerations of this and how that will impact the politics of it all - the rights of rapists, cross state travel, an increase in dead or injured women as a result of back alley abortions etc. It is easy to treat abortion as some existential moral issue that you either care about or, on the flip side, ignore - but both those approaches may be challenged when reports of family friends, neighbors etc. getting injured due to black market abortions after a rape.

Conservatives have fought to roll back Roe for decades, and have finally succeeded. However, I don't believe the book ends there - we are simply entering a new era in the culture wars - the post-Roe era, a new battle. And what that new chapter and new battle looks like is yet to be seen but will undoubtedly involve more division, more lawsuits, and more human harm, day to day, as women navigate a new care landscape.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:43 pm

Roberts states that the document is authentic, and the SC Marshall will investigate. He reiterates it is preliminary and doesn't represent the final ruling as it is a draft.

https://twitter.com/GregStohr/status/15 ... 8480702464?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
However, I don't believe the book ends there - we are simply entering a new era in the culture wars - the post-Roe era, a new battle. And what that new chapter and new battle looks like is yet to be seen but will undoubtedly involve more division, more lawsuits, and more human harm, day to day, as women navigate a new care landscape.


Superb summation - this is exactly what will play out. That and some demographic changes around gender in a few states, possibly.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


So you are saying that the Judges in the majority can be persuaded by a leak? How is it a constitutional violation thought? The vote was already taken and the opinions are being written? The clerk, printer, judge, or other official should be punished, but it is not a constitutional violation to leak a document. The bigger issue the judges need to examine is how much they are damaging women's rights to their own bodies and choices. That right there is the biggest issue of corruption present here. But we expected that with Trump's appointees right?


So if a jury's deliberations and verdict is leaked to the press before they ever announce it, won't you think something might happen in between if a group is against that verdict? wouldn't that group do something to change the outcome/verdict?


LOL how exactly would that work now?


They should just release the ruling ASAP. That's it end of story. If anything changes from here to the announcement, its done, the justice system is broken.

The same thing would have happened if the Jan6th rioters would have stopped the process completely, the system would have broken down right there. Thankfully, everything was done in Jan6th. The same should happen here with this.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:48 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

So if a jury's deliberations and verdict is leaked to the press before they ever announce it, won't you think something might happen in between if a group is against that verdict? wouldn't that group do something to change the outcome/verdict?


LOL how exactly would that work now?


They should just release the ruling ASAP. That's it end of story. If anything changes from here to the announcement, its done, the justice system is broken.

The same thing would have happened if the Jan6th rioters would have stopped the process completely, the system would have broken down right there. Thankfully, everything was done in Jan6th. The same should happen here with this.



The Supreme Court has it's processes for a reason. The opinions need to be approved and circulated. I still feel this was a conservative leak, because it absolutely destroys the GOP reelection story. Inflation does not matter much when personal rights are at stake,
 
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scbriml
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:51 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Mitch McConnell i more worried about the leak itself. I suspect it is due to the precarious nature this puts the primaries and donors into .

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 627051002/


Seems a bit toxic since Mitch is blaming peoples reactions to a very polarizing decision rather than address the ruling itself and bad faith liars within his nominees to the court.


Of course, because McConnell doesn't want his donor pool to have face questions about stuff like this:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... ugh-debts/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09 ... tions.html


Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.


Is this not someone exercising their 1st Amendment rights?

I’m not seeing the equivalence with armed insurrectionists attempting to overthrow a legal election result.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:51 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
They should just release the ruling ASAP. That's it end of story. If anything changes from here to the announcement, its done, the justice system is broken.


Yeah well, that's not how appellate courts operate.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:52 pm

scbriml wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Of course, because McConnell doesn't want his donor pool to have face questions about stuff like this:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... ugh-debts/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09 ... tions.html


Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.


Is this not someone exercising their 1st Amendment rights?

I’m not seeing the equivalence with armed insurrectionists attempting to overthrow a legal election result.


That's an interesting test for lawyers - but generally speaking government employees do not have a legal right to distribute confidential work product. Like, ever. That's quite a bit different than saying 'I work at such and such and I think the policy they're working on is wrong'. That would just get you terminated without the confidential content being known.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 3:56 pm

The POTUS's take.

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1521485987133771782

This one is going to be one hell of an election season, and dovetails with the previous post by Skyservice.


The GOP has caught the car, but they may choke on the exhaust.

skyservice_330 wrote:
- Will this reenergize or remobilize the left? In a way, I see an analogy to the Ukraine situation. Putin was relying on a divided an otherwise passive West to enable his taking of Ukraine. In fact, the complete opposite happened. The West, NATO etc. mobilized quickly and strongly to push back. Will the overturning of Roe be the Ukraine of the culture wars for the left? Will it result in a groundswell of new and reenergized activists? Will it force the left to revisit its approach to issues - with attacks on abortion access, and potentially gay rights coming down the line via the USSC, will issues such as trans rights get put on the backburner as the battle turns to protecting wins, versus taking up new causes for minority groups?

- How will the politics of this play out? From the little bit I have read, a complete overturn of Roe goes much further than where public opinion is at - will that play a role in the midterms? Not unrelated to the politics, are the practical considerations of this and how that will impact the politics of it all - the rights of rapists, cross state travel, an increase in dead or injured women as a result of back alley abortions etc. It is easy to treat abortion as some existential moral issue that you either care about or, on the flip side, ignore - but both those approaches may be challenged when reports of family friends, neighbors etc. getting injured due to black market abortions after a rape.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 4:01 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Mitch McConnell i more worried about the leak itself. I suspect it is due to the precarious nature this puts the primaries and donors into .

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 627051002/


Seems a bit toxic since Mitch is blaming peoples reactions to a very polarizing decision rather than address the ruling itself and bad faith liars within his nominees to the court.


Of course, because McConnell doesn't want his donor pool to have face questions about stuff like this:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/p ... ugh-debts/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09 ... tions.html


Well, its pretty evident the leak was intended to intimidate or forcefully persuade the justices to change opinion. That's a breach of the process.

In January 6th, it was said that interfering with a constitutional procedure was an insurrection and anti democratic. Well, if that leak is what it is, its mostly the same or even worse. A law clerk who thinks is above the judges and tries to forcefully change an outcome, is an absolute breach of constitutionality at minimum.

Because the ends justifies the means, the left is happy about the leak. In reality one can be both against January 6th, and against the leak. Not just against one of them, if not you don't really care about democracy or the institutions.

It's weird that a leak = violence, but conservative foot soldiers repeating the GOP asylum's 'Jews are bringing in illegal immigrants' mantra verbatim and then mowing down a synagogue and Walmart is completely and totally coincidental
 
ltbewr
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 4:32 pm

This decision is about the law in Mississippi, that great bastion for civil rights.

The SCOTUS may rule to allow states to ban or highly regulate access to legal abortions in their states, but they MUST rule to declare as unconstitutional those parts of Texas' or any other state's laws where a woman who goes to another state to get a legal abortion or those that help a woman get an out of state abortion can be charged with a felony crime upon return. They also must declare as unconstitutional the obscene 'bounty' payout Texas law has for those who rat out to county prosecutors in the state a woman they know got a legal abortion out of state or persons who help them to get access.
 
GDB
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 4:38 pm

Nail on the head;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-pro-life

And the writer is fortunate to live in a country that decided this issue, rationally, in 1967. It wasn't really party political, not in a manifesto, though a Labour Home Secretary, Roy Jenkins, had to be given permission and Parliamentary time from his Prime Minister (Harold Wilson), to get a bill sponsored by a MP, in this case Liberal MP David Steel.
So MP's could vote on their own beliefs not party policy, while the left as in Labour and Centre Left Liberals mostly voted in favour, not all, some were against due to personal belief others perhaps if they represented seats say with a large Catholic population, usually urban Labour ones, however numbers of Conservatives voted yes as well, for some MP's across parties this had been a long campaign.

And unlike those SC judges, none of those MP's were there for life, all had to face reelection.

Over time, attitudes change, however the biggest take out I see here is that opinion on it is closely link to faith, which given the overall attitudes means those against it, as despite having a 'state church' it has no power, little politics in a functionally secular society.
https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-rep ... rtion.aspx
Last edited by GDB on Tue May 03, 2022 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 4:46 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
It is regrettable that the United States political system is beholden to culture wars and unrelenting interference from extremist religious organizations (looking at you "evangelicals". All of this will pretty much assure the country will never move forward with much, its best days long behind it, and continue its steep decline into a cesspool of gun violence, extremism, poverty, and inequality.

Perhaps one day the Supreme Court will take up a case that results in religious organizations losing their tax exempt status and finally being exposed for what they are. If you want to play in the political arena, then pay taxes.



Agreed. If we look back through history, the great empires and kingdoms didn’t fall because they were invaded, they self-destructed from many of the same problems the US is facing. Deep divisions, corruption, internal bickering, complacency and so on. Can this be turned around or is it too late. I don’t know.

Dystopian science fiction weren’t far off.


Hopefully it can be and it is unfortunate because we need old school America back more than ever. We see what China is doing regarding Covid and many other things.
That model sucks and the US needs to be the country to re-engage the world but through many of the things you mention the US has lost its moral high ground.

ContinentalEWR wrote:
It is regrettable that the United States political system is beholden to culture wars and unrelenting interference from extremist religious organizations (looking at you "evangelicals". All of this will pretty much assure the country will never move forward with much, its best days long behind it, and continue its steep decline into a cesspool of gun violence, extremism, poverty, and inequality.

Perhaps one day the Supreme Court will take up a case that results in religious organizations losing their tax exempt status and finally being exposed for what they are. If you want to play in the political arena, then pay taxes.


That would be awesome if it ever happened.

Avatar2go wrote:
If this ruling stands, abortion rights will revert to the states, and the country will be divided into zones where care is or is not offered. That will force some people to travel for care.

For states where it is not offered, the next step may be to criminalize travel for abortion care. Missouri is already considering such legislation. That would raise a new issue for the courts to consider.


I thought conservatives were the party or small government and individual rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIlL0T2yTss

This is why I am politically homeless, like most sensible human beings.

I hate that the Christian Taliban has its claws in the conservative party and am not a fan of Reaganomics. I do like freedom of speech and individual rights however which tend be more embraced by the conservatives, however this only applies when you agree with their narrative. Many on the right were just fine with a trucker convoy but would scoff at a BLM rally, you either allow both or neither.

Now the liberals have a better economic policy (at least they should but that is another argument). however I can't stand the woke nonsense or then Nanny State behavior (see excessive Covid restrictions, especially regarding children). However they don't go for this crap on outlawing abortion and are pro sex-ed and most are pro drug legalization.

casinterest wrote:
Susan Collins has released a statement stating that Gosuch and Kavanaugh were apparently not honest in their discussions during confrimation.

This does not surprise me considering who nominated them , but here we are.



Basically. If this does get struck down I would think Roberts sides with the liberal justices, he might even write the case against repealing the law.
 
luckyone
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 5:06 pm

Possible scenario: The court is already in hot water over Clarence Thomas and his loony wife. One, if not two members could face Senate hearings in a more extreme scenario -- it has only happened once that a Justice be impeached, but it has happened. So somebody leaks it to back the other into a corner. OR, they leak the "final" draft to give conservatives an excuse to yell when in reality they have backed away from the issue and send it back to the lower courts.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 5:11 pm

luckyone wrote:
Possible scenario: The court is already in hot water over Clarence Thomas and his loony wife. One, if not two members could face Senate hearings in a more extreme scenario -- it has only happened once that a Justice be impeached, but it has happened. So somebody leaks it to back the other into a corner. OR, they leak the "final" draft to give conservatives an excuse to yell when in reality they have backed away from the issue and send it back to the lower courts.

Maybe it was Thomas that leaked it. Under Alito's reasoning, his own marriage would be at risk, and perhaps Thomas wanted to Embarrass Alito while pushing his majority opinion.

Alito’s draft argues that rights protected by the Constitution but not explicitly mentioned in it — so-called unenumerated rights — must be strongly rooted in U.S. history and tradition. That form of analysis seems at odds with several of the court’s recent decisions, including many of its rulings backing gay rights. Liberal justices seem likely to take issue with Alito’s assertion in the draft opinion that overturning Roe would not jeopardize other rights the courts have grounded in privacy, such as the right to ... marry someone of the same sex.


https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho ... -rcna27070
 
luckyone
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 5:14 pm

casinterest wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Possible scenario: The court is already in hot water over Clarence Thomas and his loony wife. One, if not two members could face Senate hearings in a more extreme scenario -- it has only happened once that a Justice be impeached, but it has happened. So somebody leaks it to back the other into a corner. OR, they leak the "final" draft to give conservatives an excuse to yell when in reality they have backed away from the issue and send it back to the lower courts.

Maybe it was Thomas that leaked it. Under Alito's reasoning, his own marriage would be at risk, and perhaps Thomas wanted to Embarrass Alito while pushing his majority opinion.

Alito’s draft argues that rights protected by the Constitution but not explicitly mentioned in it — so-called unenumerated rights — must be strongly rooted in U.S. history and tradition. That form of analysis seems at odds with several of the court’s recent decisions, including many of its rulings backing gay rights. Liberal justices seem likely to take issue with Alito’s assertion in the draft opinion that overturning Roe would not jeopardize other rights the courts have grounded in privacy, such as the right to ... marry someone of the same sex.


https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho ... -rcna27070

Were that to be true it would be somewhat hilarious, but ultimately it would still be in line with Clarence Thomas' disgustingly self-serving interpretation of social issues.

Meanwhile, a statement from SCOTUS makes me think they might be giving the court wiggle room to do exactly as I described: "The Supreme Court’s statement Tuesday noted that the draft opinion does not represent the “final position of any member on the issues in the case.” Justices’ votes are often fluid up to the point of an opinion’s publication, and an official ruling in the case could come any time over the next two months." That or somebody is having a lot of fun at the public's expense. Guess we shall see in the next few weeks.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... ourt-leak/
 
CometII
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 5:17 pm

Ultimately, the middle no longer exists in the United States of America. The "middle" has been successfully turned into a dirty word, a liability, a character flaw... treachery. This is the unholy and perhaps accidental (perhaps not) cooperation between the two ideological fringes of politics. They have spun the narrative and indoctrinated millions through decades of alternative facts (both on the right and left), via talk radio, tabloids, websites, podcast, tweets, and channels, into the narrative of "the other". Tribalism was sanctioned, promoted, made mainstream. And then any deviation from Tribalism, compromise, cooperation, center-based politics, take-a-loss on occasion, was vilified and made toxic. Now they have succeeded. No one in either party can win as a centrist, or even get out of their respective primary. It was bound to infect the highest court.

It goes well beyond politics Everything "middle" in the USA is being made to vanish:

- The middle class is under unprecedented assault: all government offers now are tax loopholes for corporations (who are people, unless they say something you don't like, then they are deep-state enemies of foreign actors), or and endless stream of financial handouts to the poor (who are oppressed, unless they don't think in your ideology, then they are yahoos! at best, angry / racist backwoodsmen otherwise).
- Middle of the road housing has disappeared: 79% of new construction is either high-income luxury, or government sponsored housing Companies have decide the middle class is not worth servicing anymore.
- College has only become affordable to the wealthy, to the few than can earn full scholarships, or who can lean on minority programs. The average not too high not too low students is sacrificed at the altar of student debt.
- If you are poor, you'll get your Medicare / Medicaid. If you are wealthy, you can travel anywhere you want or pay here. The middle class gets the most inefficient, expensive, low-return health service in human history.
- If you don't tow 100% the dogma line, left or right, you are canceled out of your gig, career, promotion, or even have people go after you personally beyond the workplace (already utterly unnaceptable in itself).

I'm a very pessimistic because when the well gets so poisoned, it requires total vanquishing of "the other" to achieve stability again. Of course, it's a stability reached only by the thorough elimination of some faction. It's too far down the road of 'de-Americanizing" even "dehumanizing", "the other". It's ingrained in the minds of millions, and there is no turning back.

This is not only a contemporary American phenomenon.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 5:40 pm

CometII wrote:
Ultimately, the middle no longer exists in the United States of America. The "middle" has been successfully turned into a dirty word, a liability, a character flaw... treachery. This is the unholy and perhaps accidental (perhaps not) cooperation between the two ideological fringes of politics. They have spun the narrative and indoctrinated millions through decades of alternative facts (both on the right and left), via talk radio, tabloids, websites, podcast, tweets, and channels, into the narrative of "the other". Tribalism was sanctioned, promoted, made mainstream. And then any deviation from Tribalism, compromise, cooperation, center-based politics, take-a-loss on occasion, was vilified and made toxic. Now they have succeeded. No one in either party can win as a centrist, or even get out of their respective primary. It was bound to infect the highest court.


It's not that middle doesn't exist, it's that most people America, especially conservatives, have no freaking clue what the middle is. Trying to position yourself as being halfway between the Ds and Rs isn't necessarily being in the middle. It's also the false assumption that every issue has to have a "both sides," as if trying to overthrow the government is just another partisan viewpoint. It's a fact that when you poll issue by issue, people are far more liberal than they want to admit or vote for. It's a lot of political ignorance.
 
CometII
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 5:52 pm

LittleFokker wrote:

It's not that middle doesn't exist, it's that most people America, especially conservatives, have no freaking clue what the middle is. Trying to position yourself as being halfway between the Ds and Rs isn't necessarily being in the middle. It's also the false assumption that every issue has to have a "both sides," as if trying to overthrow the government is just another partisan viewpoint. It's a fact that when you poll issue by issue, people are far more liberal than they want to admit or vote for. It's a lot of political ignorance.


The middle usually means common sense. Because it allows you to be more open-minded by being able to pivot towards one side or the other. If you are at one end of any spectrum you are "the absence" or the "the fullness" of anything. Even the light spectrum works like this. You can't go any further to your own side, and going the other way towards the middle, either you move so much that you lose your essence, or try to move a little but since you are at the extreme, it makes litter actual difference. Either way you are totally boxed, willingly or not. And the by-product is that both sides are too wide apart in actual distance, but impossibly far apart in the spirit.

But, this is what I don't understand. How is it that states can punish companies or individuals for FOLLOWING THE LAWS, OUTSIDE THEIR OWN BORDERS. How is this insanity even allowed to be considered much less debated seriously?

California and Texas are on record saying they will punish corporations interacting with their respective state's residents who may be doing certain transactions outside their own sovereign borders. We pillory China for it's supposed attempts at prosecuting speech or other matters beyond their borders, yet Texas openly has stated they will punish anyone that performs what is a legal act in another state, outside their state. How is it that the Feds don't intervene immediately and sanction or even suspend these lunatics?
Last edited by CometII on Tue May 03, 2022 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 5:53 pm

luckyone wrote:
casinterest wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Possible scenario: The court is already in hot water over Clarence Thomas and his loony wife. One, if not two members could face Senate hearings in a more extreme scenario -- it has only happened once that a Justice be impeached, but it has happened. So somebody leaks it to back the other into a corner. OR, they leak the "final" draft to give conservatives an excuse to yell when in reality they have backed away from the issue and send it back to the lower courts.

Maybe it was Thomas that leaked it. Under Alito's reasoning, his own marriage would be at risk, and perhaps Thomas wanted to Embarrass Alito while pushing his majority opinion.

Alito’s draft argues that rights protected by the Constitution but not explicitly mentioned in it — so-called unenumerated rights — must be strongly rooted in U.S. history and tradition. That form of analysis seems at odds with several of the court’s recent decisions, including many of its rulings backing gay rights. Liberal justices seem likely to take issue with Alito’s assertion in the draft opinion that overturning Roe would not jeopardize other rights the courts have grounded in privacy, such as the right to ... marry someone of the same sex.


https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho ... -rcna27070

Were that to be true it would be somewhat hilarious, but ultimately it would still be in line with Clarence Thomas' disgustingly self-serving interpretation of social issues.

Meanwhile, a statement from SCOTUS makes me think they might be giving the court wiggle room to do exactly as I described: "The Supreme Court’s statement Tuesday noted that the draft opinion does not represent the “final position of any member on the issues in the case.” Justices’ votes are often fluid up to the point of an opinion’s publication, and an official ruling in the case could come any time over the next two months." That or somebody is having a lot of fun at the public's expense. Guess we shall see in the next few weeks.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... ourt-leak/

Someone joked it was his lunatic terrorist wife that dropped the papers going back and forth to the hospital for Clarence.

At this point it wouldn't surprise me. :rotfl:
 
luckyone
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 5:54 pm

CometII wrote:
California and Texas are on record saying they will punish corporations interacting with their respective state's residents doing transactions outside their sovereing borders. We pillory China for it's supposed attempts at prosecuting speech or other matters beyond their borders, yet Texas openly has stated they will punish anyone that performs what is a legal act in another state, outside their state. How is it that the Feds don't intervene immediately and sanction or even suspend these lunatics?

Because no one has filed a complaint of harm. What's going to have to happen is the law actually becomes enforced, and then the person who received undue harm by it will demonstrate their grievance. Until it happens, it's not a problem. That tends to be how these things go.
 
CometII
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 5:57 pm

luckyone wrote:
CometII wrote:
California and Texas are on record saying they will punish corporations interacting with their respective state's residents doing transactions outside their sovereing borders. We pillory China for it's supposed attempts at prosecuting speech or other matters beyond their borders, yet Texas openly has stated they will punish anyone that performs what is a legal act in another state, outside their state. How is it that the Feds don't intervene immediately and sanction or even suspend these lunatics?

Because no one has filed a complaint of harm. What's going to have to happen is the law actually becomes enforced, and then the person who received undue harm by it will demonstrate their grievance. Until it happens, it's not a problem. That tends to be how these things go.


Yeah, then I don't agree with this procedure at all. No state should be allowed to pass any law punishing residents for legal activities they perform in other states, plain and simple. There should be an automatic strike-out or a very speedy court review, and dismissal.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:02 pm

c933103 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:

What !! No !!

These Justices's opinion on Roe v. Wade have obviously "evolved" since taking office...

After all, The Clintons "evolved" on their postilion about Gay Marriage, from once supporting DOMA.

Nothing to see here...


Campaign statements are not the same as statements made to Senate panels under oath. This is a junior high school-level distinction.

What are the content of those statements? As I don't think it would be legal for a congress member to ask a judge to say they will rule some cases some ways for them to be nominated?


President William Jefferson Clinton signed the DOMA Act that came across his desk... and then "evolved" his position. Looks like some of the recent SCOTUS Justices have "evolved" on their position that Roe was "Settled Law"....
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:02 pm

CometII wrote:
luckyone wrote:
CometII wrote:
California and Texas are on record saying they will punish corporations interacting with their respective state's residents doing transactions outside their sovereing borders. We pillory China for it's supposed attempts at prosecuting speech or other matters beyond their borders, yet Texas openly has stated they will punish anyone that performs what is a legal act in another state, outside their state. How is it that the Feds don't intervene immediately and sanction or even suspend these lunatics?

Because no one has filed a complaint of harm. What's going to have to happen is the law actually becomes enforced, and then the person who received undue harm by it will demonstrate their grievance. Until it happens, it's not a problem. That tends to be how these things go.


Yeah, then I don't agree with this procedure at all. No state should be allowed to pass any law punishing residents for legal activities they perform in other states, plain and simple. There should be an automatic strike-out or a very speedy court review, and dismissal.


In my opinion, that is unconstitutional and I don't think it will hold up.
 
luckyone
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:04 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Maybe it was Thomas that leaked it. Under Alito's reasoning, his own marriage would be at risk, and perhaps Thomas wanted to Embarrass Alito while pushing his majority opinion.



https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho ... -rcna27070

Were that to be true it would be somewhat hilarious, but ultimately it would still be in line with Clarence Thomas' disgustingly self-serving interpretation of social issues.

Meanwhile, a statement from SCOTUS makes me think they might be giving the court wiggle room to do exactly as I described: "The Supreme Court’s statement Tuesday noted that the draft opinion does not represent the “final position of any member on the issues in the case.” Justices’ votes are often fluid up to the point of an opinion’s publication, and an official ruling in the case could come any time over the next two months." That or somebody is having a lot of fun at the public's expense. Guess we shall see in the next few weeks.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... ourt-leak/

Someone joked it was his lunatic terrorist wife that dropped the papers going back and forth to the hospital for Clarence.

At this point it wouldn't surprise me. :rotfl:

Stranger things have happened.

And the more I read, the more I wonder how much of a final draft this may actually represent. The draft apparently penned by Alito lists unrelated cases (such as the review of the Affordable Care Act) that supposedly Alito doesn't like that also read like a laundry list of CPAC objectives. While it may very well turn out to be the final draft, that is not typically how these opinions read. So it begs one to wonder what version of the draft was found and actually copied. Was this indeed the final draft, or was it a relatively early draft that reads like a stream of consciousness that may be part of the behind the scenes workings of SCOTUS. Whatever the outcome, they've bought themselves an even greater degree of scrutiny that they're purported to dislike.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1574
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:05 pm

CometII wrote:
Ultimately, the middle no longer exists in the United States of America. The "middle" has been successfully turned into a dirty word, a liability, a character flaw... treachery. This is the unholy and perhaps accidental (perhaps not) cooperation between the two ideological fringes of politics. They have spun the narrative and indoctrinated millions through decades of alternative facts (both on the right and left), via talk radio, tabloids, websites, podcast, tweets, and channels, into the narrative of "the other". Tribalism was sanctioned, promoted, made mainstream. And then any deviation from Tribalism, compromise, cooperation, center-based politics, take-a-loss on occasion, was vilified and made toxic. Now they have succeeded. No one in either party can win as a centrist, or even get out of their respective primary. It was bound to infect the highest court.

It goes well beyond politics Everything "middle" in the USA is being made to vanish:

- The middle class is under unprecedented assault: all government offers now are tax loopholes for corporations (who are people, unless they say something you don't like, then they are deep-state enemies of foreign actors), or and endless stream of financial handouts to the poor (who are oppressed, unless they don't think in your ideology, then they are yahoos! at best, angry / racist backwoodsmen otherwise).
- Middle of the road housing has disappeared: 79% of new construction is either high-income luxury, or government sponsored housing Companies have decide the middle class is not worth servicing anymore.
- College has only become affordable to the wealthy, to the few than can earn full scholarships, or who can lean on minority programs. The average not too high not too low students is sacrificed at the altar of student debt.
- If you are poor, you'll get your Medicare / Medicaid. If you are wealthy, you can travel anywhere you want or pay here. The middle class gets the most inefficient, expensive, low-return health service in human history.
- If you don't tow 100% the dogma line, left or right, you are canceled out of your gig, career, promotion, or even have people go after you personally beyond the workplace (already utterly unnaceptable in itself).

I'm a very pessimistic because when the well gets so poisoned, it requires total vanquishing of "the other" to achieve stability again. Of course, it's a stability reached only by the thorough elimination of some faction. It's too far down the road of 'de-Americanizing" even "dehumanizing", "the other". It's ingrained in the minds of millions, and there is no turning back.

This is not only a contemporary American phenomenon.


I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage, back in 2008 not even Barack Obama was in favor of Gay marriage. Now we are forced to accept that our children should be thought gender ideology and be allowed if they wish to change their gender. We are merely sticking to our principles and staying put.

The left was center, most of the time during the Clinton years, and part of Obama's first 4 years, after that, the left has moved dramatically whereas the right has had to accept and concede on many things, like I mentioned gay marriage. Yet now, if we don't accept abortion in demand (something Democrats were against in the 90's and early 2000's) we are far Right. The Right has always and consistently believed that Roe was wrong. Nothing there has changed.

Whereas the left is constantly shifting left, to a point that Joe Rogan and many other classical liberals are now considered far right.

The Right is now standing up, no longer willing to let things go, to let things fly, that's it, if we are vocal is because we had enough. For us, its much more than low taxes and no regulation, the left is taking over all institutions, including the nuclear family. That's where most of us, are saying No.

There has always been extreme far right fringe elements, neo nazis, etc, that hasn't ever changed, but the typical right has in fact for the sake of peace and civility accepted many of the things the 'decent' and 'coherent' left has told us they want to be accepted. They told us to leave us alone, we accepted, now they want to go after our children, they want abortion on demand all the way to pregnancy, all sorts of crazy things. The Right instead of moving Right, has drawn a line in the sand and said, that's it.

BTW, Donald Trump wasn't even a far right or even a Right president, he was a center right president. One can argue GWB was more conservative. So no, we haven't moved right.
 
CometII
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 6:02 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:08 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
CometII wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Because no one has filed a complaint of harm. What's going to have to happen is the law actually becomes enforced, and then the person who received undue harm by it will demonstrate their grievance. Until it happens, it's not a problem. That tends to be how these things go.


Yeah, then I don't agree with this procedure at all. No state should be allowed to pass any law punishing residents for legal activities they perform in other states, plain and simple. There should be an automatic strike-out or a very speedy court review, and dismissal.


In my opinion, that is unconstitutional and I don't think it will hold up.


I agree, but again this is not the real problem. The real crisis is that there is a legion of lawmakers out there in our nation (both in blue states and red states) that not only drafted and sponsored a legislation like this, it was as far as I am aware, PASSED it, in both Texas and California (one about abortion, the other about LTBG matters). The scary part isn't whether the law actually survives, is that it was conceived and promulgated in the first place!

That is a huge slide towards hardcore tyranny. And no one is really talking about it.
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