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LittleFokker
Posts: 1559
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:12 pm

LittleFokker wrote:
[It's not that middle doesn't exist, it's that most people America, especially conservatives, have no freaking clue what the middle is.


Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit item of evidence A, a post horribly divorced from reality:

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage, back in 2008 not even Barack Obama was in favor of Gay marriage. Now we are forced to accept that our children should be thought gender ideology and be allowed if they wish to change their gender. We are merely sticking to our principles and staying put.

The left was center, most of the time during the Clinton years, and part of Obama's first 4 years, after that, the left has moved dramatically whereas the right has had to accept and concede on many things, like I mentioned gay marriage. Yet now, if we don't accept abortion in demand (something Democrats were against in the 90's and early 2000's) we are far Right. The Right has always and consistently believed that Roe was wrong. Nothing there has changed.

Whereas the left is constantly shifting left, to a point that Joe Rogan and many other classical liberals are now considered far right.

The Right is now standing up, no longer willing to let things go, to let things fly, that's it, if we are vocal is because we had enough. For us, its much more than low taxes and no regulation, the left is taking over all institutions, including the nuclear family. That's where most of us, are saying No.

There has always been extreme far right fringe elements, neo nazis, etc, that hasn't ever changed, but the typical right has in fact for the sake of peace and civility accepted many of the things the 'decent' and 'coherent' left has told us they want to be accepted. They told us to leave us alone, we accepted, now they want to go after our children, they want abortion on demand all the way to pregnancy, all sorts of crazy things. The Right instead of moving Right, has drawn a line in the sand and said, that's it.

BTW, Donald Trump wasn't even a far right or even a Right president, he was a center right president. One can argue GWB was more conservative. So no, we haven't moved right.
 
CometII
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 6:02 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:20 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
CometII wrote:
Ultimately, the middle no longer exists in the United States of America. The "middle" has been successfully turned into a dirty word, a liability, a character flaw... treachery. This is the unholy and perhaps accidental (perhaps not) cooperation between the two ideological fringes of politics. They have spun the narrative and indoctrinated millions through decades of alternative facts (both on the right and left), via talk radio, tabloids, websites, podcast, tweets, and channels, into the narrative of "the other". Tribalism was sanctioned, promoted, made mainstream. And then any deviation from Tribalism, compromise, cooperation, center-based politics, take-a-loss on occasion, was vilified and made toxic. Now they have succeeded. No one in either party can win as a centrist, or even get out of their respective primary. It was bound to infect the highest court.

It goes well beyond politics Everything "middle" in the USA is being made to vanish:

- The middle class is under unprecedented assault: all government offers now are tax loopholes for corporations (who are people, unless they say something you don't like, then they are deep-state enemies of foreign actors), or and endless stream of financial handouts to the poor (who are oppressed, unless they don't think in your ideology, then they are yahoos! at best, angry / racist backwoodsmen otherwise).
- Middle of the road housing has disappeared: 79% of new construction is either high-income luxury, or government sponsored housing Companies have decide the middle class is not worth servicing anymore.
- College has only become affordable to the wealthy, to the few than can earn full scholarships, or who can lean on minority programs. The average not too high not too low students is sacrificed at the altar of student debt.
- If you are poor, you'll get your Medicare / Medicaid. If you are wealthy, you can travel anywhere you want or pay here. The middle class gets the most inefficient, expensive, low-return health service in human history.
- If you don't tow 100% the dogma line, left or right, you are canceled out of your gig, career, promotion, or even have people go after you personally beyond the workplace (already utterly unnaceptable in itself).

I'm a very pessimistic because when the well gets so poisoned, it requires total vanquishing of "the other" to achieve stability again. Of course, it's a stability reached only by the thorough elimination of some faction. It's too far down the road of 'de-Americanizing" even "dehumanizing", "the other". It's ingrained in the minds of millions, and there is no turning back.

This is not only a contemporary American phenomenon.


I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage, back in 2008 not even Barack Obama was in favor of Gay marriage. Now we are forced to accept that our children should be thought gender ideology and be allowed if they wish to change their gender. We are merely sticking to our principles and staying put.

The left was center, most of the time during the Clinton years, and part of Obama's first 4 years, after that, the left has moved dramatically whereas the right has had to accept and concede on many things, like I mentioned gay marriage. Yet now, if we don't accept abortion in demand (something Democrats were against in the 90's and early 2000's) we are far Right. The Right has always and consistently believed that Roe was wrong. Nothing there has changed.

Whereas the left is constantly shifting left, to a point that Joe Rogan and many other classical liberals are now considered far right.

The Right is now standing up, no longer willing to let things go, to let things fly, that's it, if we are vocal is because we had enough. For us, its much more than low taxes and no regulation, the left is taking over all institutions, including the nuclear family. That's where most of us, are saying No.

There has always been extreme far right fringe elements, neo nazis, etc, that hasn't ever changed, but the typical right has in fact for the sake of peace and civility accepted many of the things the 'decent' and 'coherent' left has told us they want to be accepted. They told us to leave us alone, we accepted, now they want to go after our children, they want abortion on demand all the way to pregnancy, all sorts of crazy things. The Right instead of moving Right, has drawn a line in the sand and said, that's it.

BTW, Donald Trump wasn't even a far right or even a Right president, he was a center right president. One can argue GWB was more conservative. So no, we haven't moved right.


I mostly don't agree, but this is based on what I just wrote above. Both the left and the right think they are not extremist in their platforms, but I'm not even debating that here.

The extreme I was talking about in my quoted text clearly is the triumph and acceptance of Tribalism. What has become extreme are not the actual positions on economic or social policy necessarily (liberals have always wanted universal healthcare, conservatives have always wanted pro-life laws, those have not radically change I will give you that), but rather the TACTICS to achieve those aims. Both sides are now openly trampling on the Separation of Powers, on state's rights, on federal rights, on individual rights, even on the Constitution itself, to get their agendas across the finish line: from abusing the Filibuster, to outrageous Gerrymandering, to blocking votes a year or more on the pretext of "letting the people vote", to suggestions of packing the court, and now even punishing individuals for activities they perform in other states if such an activity is deemed illegal in their state of residence.

Those are all unequivocally anti-American, anti-republicanism, anti-democracy, anti-stability maneuvers. That is the extremist danger at present, not so much on policy, but on how the republic itself operates.

Then when the voters throw the incumbents out, of course, the new majority in power concludes it must pursue even more radical, extreme measures to undo all of that which the last round of extreme measures enacted by "the other" accomplished. And thus the nation's stewardship, like a ship at mercy, is swung ever-increasingly from port to starboard, from starboard to port. It will capsize at some point and millions will be destroyed and millions more severely harmed.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1575
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:26 pm

CometII wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
CometII wrote:
Ultimately, the middle no longer exists in the United States of America. The "middle" has been successfully turned into a dirty word, a liability, a character flaw... treachery. This is the unholy and perhaps accidental (perhaps not) cooperation between the two ideological fringes of politics. They have spun the narrative and indoctrinated millions through decades of alternative facts (both on the right and left), via talk radio, tabloids, websites, podcast, tweets, and channels, into the narrative of "the other". Tribalism was sanctioned, promoted, made mainstream. And then any deviation from Tribalism, compromise, cooperation, center-based politics, take-a-loss on occasion, was vilified and made toxic. Now they have succeeded. No one in either party can win as a centrist, or even get out of their respective primary. It was bound to infect the highest court.

It goes well beyond politics Everything "middle" in the USA is being made to vanish:

- The middle class is under unprecedented assault: all government offers now are tax loopholes for corporations (who are people, unless they say something you don't like, then they are deep-state enemies of foreign actors), or and endless stream of financial handouts to the poor (who are oppressed, unless they don't think in your ideology, then they are yahoos! at best, angry / racist backwoodsmen otherwise).
- Middle of the road housing has disappeared: 79% of new construction is either high-income luxury, or government sponsored housing Companies have decide the middle class is not worth servicing anymore.
- College has only become affordable to the wealthy, to the few than can earn full scholarships, or who can lean on minority programs. The average not too high not too low students is sacrificed at the altar of student debt.
- If you are poor, you'll get your Medicare / Medicaid. If you are wealthy, you can travel anywhere you want or pay here. The middle class gets the most inefficient, expensive, low-return health service in human history.
- If you don't tow 100% the dogma line, left or right, you are canceled out of your gig, career, promotion, or even have people go after you personally beyond the workplace (already utterly unnaceptable in itself).

I'm a very pessimistic because when the well gets so poisoned, it requires total vanquishing of "the other" to achieve stability again. Of course, it's a stability reached only by the thorough elimination of some faction. It's too far down the road of 'de-Americanizing" even "dehumanizing", "the other". It's ingrained in the minds of millions, and there is no turning back.

This is not only a contemporary American phenomenon.


I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage, back in 2008 not even Barack Obama was in favor of Gay marriage. Now we are forced to accept that our children should be thought gender ideology and be allowed if they wish to change their gender. We are merely sticking to our principles and staying put.

The left was center, most of the time during the Clinton years, and part of Obama's first 4 years, after that, the left has moved dramatically whereas the right has had to accept and concede on many things, like I mentioned gay marriage. Yet now, if we don't accept abortion in demand (something Democrats were against in the 90's and early 2000's) we are far Right. The Right has always and consistently believed that Roe was wrong. Nothing there has changed.

Whereas the left is constantly shifting left, to a point that Joe Rogan and many other classical liberals are now considered far right.

The Right is now standing up, no longer willing to let things go, to let things fly, that's it, if we are vocal is because we had enough. For us, its much more than low taxes and no regulation, the left is taking over all institutions, including the nuclear family. That's where most of us, are saying No.

There has always been extreme far right fringe elements, neo nazis, etc, that hasn't ever changed, but the typical right has in fact for the sake of peace and civility accepted many of the things the 'decent' and 'coherent' left has told us they want to be accepted. They told us to leave us alone, we accepted, now they want to go after our children, they want abortion on demand all the way to pregnancy, all sorts of crazy things. The Right instead of moving Right, has drawn a line in the sand and said, that's it.

BTW, Donald Trump wasn't even a far right or even a Right president, he was a center right president. One can argue GWB was more conservative. So no, we haven't moved right.


I mostly don't agree, but this is based on what I just wrote above. Both the left and the right think they are not extremist in their platforms, but I'm not even debating that here.

The extreme I was talking about in my quoted text clearly is the triumph and acceptance of Tribalism. What has become extreme are not the actual positions on economic or social policy necessarily (liberals have always wanted universal healthcare, conservatives have always wanted pro-life laws, those have not radically change I will give you that), but rather the TACTICS to achieve those aims. Both sides are now openly trampling on the Separation of Powers, on state's rights, on federal rights, on individual rights, even on the Constitution itself, to get their agendas across the finish line: from abusing the Filibuster, to outrageous Gerrymandering, to blocking votes a year or more on the pretext of "letting the people vote", to suggestions of packing the court, and now even punishing individuals for activities they perform in other states if such an activity is deemed illegal in their state of residence.

Those are all unequivocally anti-American, anti-republicanism, anti-democracy, anti-stability maneuvers. That is the extremist danger at present, not so much on policy, but on how the republic itself operates.

Then when the voters throw the incumbents out, of course, the new majority in power concludes it must pursue even more radical, extreme measures to undo all of that which the last round of extreme measures enacted by "the other" accomplished. And thus the nation's stewardship, like a ship at mercy, is swung ever-increasingly from port to starboard, from starboard to port. It will capsize at some point and millions will be destroyed and millions more severely harmed.


There is tribalism for sure, on both sides. Social media may have played a role in that. That could make somethings that aren't supposed to be loud, seem louder than what they should.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24529
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:33 pm

Elections have consequences. But, this means Democrats can keep the House and win a couple of seats in the Senate and overturn Heller!

I just wonder, though, will Republicans make considerations for the women who die? For the babies who are without a mother? For the girls who are forced to carry their rapist (usually a family member) baby to term?

This leaked decision also rules on marriage equality. It is absolutely true Republicans want to take us back to the 1840s...
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18952
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 6:38 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
CometII wrote:
Ultimately, the middle no longer exists in the United States of America. The "middle" has been successfully turned into a dirty word, a liability, a character flaw... treachery. This is the unholy and perhaps accidental (perhaps not) cooperation between the two ideological fringes of politics. They have spun the narrative and indoctrinated millions through decades of alternative facts (both on the right and left), via talk radio, tabloids, websites, podcast, tweets, and channels, into the narrative of "the other". Tribalism was sanctioned, promoted, made mainstream. And then any deviation from Tribalism, compromise, cooperation, center-based politics, take-a-loss on occasion, was vilified and made toxic. Now they have succeeded. No one in either party can win as a centrist, or even get out of their respective primary. It was bound to infect the highest court.

It goes well beyond politics Everything "middle" in the USA is being made to vanish:

- The middle class is under unprecedented assault: all government offers now are tax loopholes for corporations (who are people, unless they say something you don't like, then they are deep-state enemies of foreign actors), or and endless stream of financial handouts to the poor (who are oppressed, unless they don't think in your ideology, then they are yahoos! at best, angry / racist backwoodsmen otherwise).
- Middle of the road housing has disappeared: 79% of new construction is either high-income luxury, or government sponsored housing Companies have decide the middle class is not worth servicing anymore.
- College has only become affordable to the wealthy, to the few than can earn full scholarships, or who can lean on minority programs. The average not too high not too low students is sacrificed at the altar of student debt.
- If you are poor, you'll get your Medicare / Medicaid. If you are wealthy, you can travel anywhere you want or pay here. The middle class gets the most inefficient, expensive, low-return health service in human history.
- If you don't tow 100% the dogma line, left or right, you are canceled out of your gig, career, promotion, or even have people go after you personally beyond the workplace (already utterly unnaceptable in itself).

I'm a very pessimistic because when the well gets so poisoned, it requires total vanquishing of "the other" to achieve stability again. Of course, it's a stability reached only by the thorough elimination of some faction. It's too far down the road of 'de-Americanizing" even "dehumanizing", "the other". It's ingrained in the minds of millions, and there is no turning back.

This is not only a contemporary American phenomenon.


I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage, back in 2008 not even Barack Obama was in favor of Gay marriage.

This is completely and totally false. The platform has not changed one iota--it is officially still opposed to same sex marriage, and the hundreds of anti LGBTQ laws percolating throughout the country, as well as the repeated runs at gay marriage including here in this draft opinion make crystal clear the party has not budged.
 
User avatar
CitizenJustin
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:12 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 7:29 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
Gay rights are next.


now that may be a bit more difficult, since the supreme court just recently ruled "discrimination based on homosexuality or transgender status necessarily entails discrimination based on sex; the first cannot happen without the second.”

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/1 ... 8_hfci.pdf

best regards
Thomas



I hope you’re right. My rights depend on a strong and stable democracy.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20872
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 7:43 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage


Can you give us one reason why you shouldn’t accept gay marriage, or why gay marriage is even an issue?
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1614
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 7:45 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
They should just release the ruling ASAP. That's it end of story. If anything changes from here to the announcement, its done, the justice system is broken.


And therein lies one theory as to why this was leaked by a conservative clerk, and not a liberal - To intimidate the conservative justices into locking their positions and, in effect, have the draft deemed as the final.

So the theory goes - a conservative clerk saw a draft of a decision they liked, and leaked it to disable any changes to it. It clearly overturns Roe and also lays the groundwork to overturn other pet projects of the right e.g. gay marriage.

Re: public trust? If Thomas is willing to undermine public trust in the court by not recusing himself from Jan 6 matters, given his wife's intimate involvement, then why would a conservative clerk think twice about undermining public trust via a leak?

Courtesy of a former clerk (@akapczynski) on the tweet machine (key excerpts from a thread) on this theory -

- Timing: This draft was circulated in Feb. If a liberal was mad about it, why wait until April to send it to Politico? The op will be out in June. What are the benefits of releasing it early? And a BIG downside – the focus on the leak itself instead of the opinion.

-If you work inside the Court, you know that the most concrete impact of the leak is to lock in this opinion essentially as is. Any edits at this point reveal jockeying between Justices, undermine the majority, and Court itself. Embarassing to the majority.

- Far and away most likely impact of the leaked draft is that it locks in 5 votes for this opinion, essentially without edits. Who would want that? So: This is about as extreme an opinion as you can have overturning Roe.

- It talks about fetuses being people as a matter of ancient law (teeing up idea that fetuses are constitutionally PROTECTED – no abortion anywhere as matter of conlaw.) And its arguments undermine all of SCOTUS’s gay rights and contraception decisions.

- Back to timing. Draft majorities circulate first, and then concurrences and dissents. So this is about the right timing for concurrences to come out. I think best bet is that Chief Justice Roberts circulated one recently, adopting a more moderate position.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11863
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 7:58 pm

scbriml wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage


Can you give us one reason why you shouldn’t accept gay marriage, or why gay marriage is even an issue?

The funny thing is gay marriage has been around as long as anything else. Religions have consecrated such unions for millennia. They just haven't been recognized by certain governments.

If (and that is a big IF) any ruling regarding it is overturned, laws "against" or states not recognizing such marriages will just be sued and it will go to the Supreme Court yet again. Only this time on freedom of religion and that IS in the US Constitution and so they shall be recognized as they follow all the reasonable reasoning of other couples marriages.

You can't favor one religion over another when the other elements are the same (two people, consenting adults).

As to the idea of Roe v Wade being over turned. It will lead to more and more very brain drain out of any backward states that forbid it.

Tugg
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15330
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 7:58 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
They should just release the ruling ASAP. That's it end of story. If anything changes from here to the announcement, its done, the justice system is broken.


And therein lies one theory as to why this was leaked by a conservative clerk, and not a liberal - To intimidate the conservative justices into locking their positions and, in effect, have the draft deemed as the final.

So the theory goes - a conservative clerk saw a draft of a decision they liked, and leaked it to disable any changes to it. It clearly overturns Roe and also lays the groundwork to overturn other pet projects of the right e.g. gay marriage.

Re: public trust? If Thomas is willing to undermine public trust in the court by not recusing himself from Jan 6 matters, given his wife's intimate involvement, then why would a conservative clerk think twice about undermining public trust via a leak?

Courtesy of a former clerk (@akapczynski) on the tweet machine (key excerpts from a thread) on this theory -

- Timing: This draft was circulated in Feb. If a liberal was mad about it, why wait until April to send it to Politico? The op will be out in June. What are the benefits of releasing it early? And a BIG downside – the focus on the leak itself instead of the opinion.

-If you work inside the Court, you know that the most concrete impact of the leak is to lock in this opinion essentially as is. Any edits at this point reveal jockeying between Justices, undermine the majority, and Court itself. Embarassing to the majority.

- Far and away most likely impact of the leaked draft is that it locks in 5 votes for this opinion, essentially without edits. Who would want that? So: This is about as extreme an opinion as you can have overturning Roe.

- It talks about fetuses being people as a matter of ancient law (teeing up idea that fetuses are constitutionally PROTECTED – no abortion anywhere as matter of conlaw.) And its arguments undermine all of SCOTUS’s gay rights and contraception decisions.

- Back to timing. Draft majorities circulate first, and then concurrences and dissents. So this is about the right timing for concurrences to come out. I think best bet is that Chief Justice Roberts circulated one recently, adopting a more moderate position.



I am not sure. Alito's draft brings up some ugly logic. The current one going around on the net is that he uses Matthew Hales logic in 17th century Britain to support his augment. Matthew Hale also wrote opinions supporting marital rape and had two "witches" executed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Hale_(jurist)

This could be an attempt to embarrass the Conservative members of the court, and to highlight just how extreme and backward that these conservative justices are. Someone pointed out that the one with the least to lose in all of this is Stephen Breyer. He has no cares beyond the term.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4403
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 8:03 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
They should just release the ruling ASAP. That's it end of story. If anything changes from here to the announcement, its done, the justice system is broken.


And therein lies one theory as to why this was leaked by a conservative clerk, and not a liberal - To intimidate the conservative justices into locking their positions and, in effect, have the draft deemed as the final.

So the theory goes - a conservative clerk saw a draft of a decision they liked, and leaked it to disable any changes to it. It clearly overturns Roe and also lays the groundwork to overturn other pet projects of the right e.g. gay marriage.

Re: public trust? If Thomas is willing to undermine public trust in the court by not recusing himself from Jan 6 matters, given his wife's intimate involvement, then why would a conservative clerk think twice about undermining public trust via a leak?

Courtesy of a former clerk (@akapczynski) on the tweet machine (key excerpts from a thread) on this theory -

- Timing: This draft was circulated in Feb. If a liberal was mad about it, why wait until April to send it to Politico? The op will be out in June. What are the benefits of releasing it early? And a BIG downside – the focus on the leak itself instead of the opinion.

-If you work inside the Court, you know that the most concrete impact of the leak is to lock in this opinion essentially as is. Any edits at this point reveal jockeying between Justices, undermine the majority, and Court itself. Embarassing to the majority.

- Far and away most likely impact of the leaked draft is that it locks in 5 votes for this opinion, essentially without edits. Who would want that? So: This is about as extreme an opinion as you can have overturning Roe.

- It talks about fetuses being people as a matter of ancient law (teeing up idea that fetuses are constitutionally PROTECTED – no abortion anywhere as matter of conlaw.) And its arguments undermine all of SCOTUS’s gay rights and contraception decisions.

- Back to timing. Draft majorities circulate first, and then concurrences and dissents. So this is about the right timing for concurrences to come out. I think best bet is that Chief Justice Roberts circulated one recently, adopting a more moderate position.

I’m not sure I follow the logic about a Roberts concurrence being the impetus for a conservative leak. Who cares if he wrote a concurring opinion. The majority would have already stood without him. I’d be curious what else would drive such a maneuver.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2970
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 8:06 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
They should just release the ruling ASAP. That's it end of story. If anything changes from here to the announcement, its done, the justice system is broken.


And therein lies one theory as to why this was leaked by a conservative clerk, and not a liberal - To intimidate the conservative justices into locking their positions and, in effect, have the draft deemed as the final.

So the theory goes - a conservative clerk saw a draft of a decision they liked, and leaked it to disable any changes to it. It clearly overturns Roe and also lays the groundwork to overturn other pet projects of the right e.g. gay marriage.

Re: public trust? If Thomas is willing to undermine public trust in the court by not recusing himself from Jan 6 matters, given his wife's intimate involvement, then why would a conservative clerk think twice about undermining public trust via a leak?

Courtesy of a former clerk (@akapczynski) on the tweet machine (key excerpts from a thread) on this theory -

- Timing: This draft was circulated in Feb. If a liberal was mad about it, why wait until April to send it to Politico? The op will be out in June. What are the benefits of releasing it early? And a BIG downside – the focus on the leak itself instead of the opinion.

-If you work inside the Court, you know that the most concrete impact of the leak is to lock in this opinion essentially as is. Any edits at this point reveal jockeying between Justices, undermine the majority, and Court itself. Embarassing to the majority.

- Far and away most likely impact of the leaked draft is that it locks in 5 votes for this opinion, essentially without edits. Who would want that? So: This is about as extreme an opinion as you can have overturning Roe.

- It talks about fetuses being people as a matter of ancient law (teeing up idea that fetuses are constitutionally PROTECTED – no abortion anywhere as matter of conlaw.) And its arguments undermine all of SCOTUS’s gay rights and contraception decisions.

- Back to timing. Draft majorities circulate first, and then concurrences and dissents. So this is about the right timing for concurrences to come out. I think best bet is that Chief Justice Roberts circulated one recently, adopting a more moderate position.


Dred Scott decision for the 21st century - an attempt at providing the "final word" on a contentious issue that instead badly overreaches, calls into question far more issues than the court was asked to rule on, and drives division even deeper.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15330
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 8:07 pm

Isn't it funny how upset the Supreme Court and GOP are getting over interference in the right of the Supreme Court to choose their own process?
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1575
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 8:15 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
They should just release the ruling ASAP. That's it end of story. If anything changes from here to the announcement, its done, the justice system is broken.


And therein lies one theory as to why this was leaked by a conservative clerk, and not a liberal - To intimidate the conservative justices into locking their positions and, in effect, have the draft deemed as the final.

So the theory goes - a conservative clerk saw a draft of a decision they liked, and leaked it to disable any changes to it. It clearly overturns Roe and also lays the groundwork to overturn other pet projects of the right e.g. gay marriage.

Re: public trust? If Thomas is willing to undermine public trust in the court by not recusing himself from Jan 6 matters, given his wife's intimate involvement, then why would a conservative clerk think twice about undermining public trust via a leak?

Courtesy of a former clerk (@akapczynski) on the tweet machine (key excerpts from a thread) on this theory -

- Timing: This draft was circulated in Feb. If a liberal was mad about it, why wait until April to send it to Politico? The op will be out in June. What are the benefits of releasing it early? And a BIG downside – the focus on the leak itself instead of the opinion.

-If you work inside the Court, you know that the most concrete impact of the leak is to lock in this opinion essentially as is. Any edits at this point reveal jockeying between Justices, undermine the majority, and Court itself. Embarassing to the majority.

- Far and away most likely impact of the leaked draft is that it locks in 5 votes for this opinion, essentially without edits. Who would want that? So: This is about as extreme an opinion as you can have overturning Roe.

- It talks about fetuses being people as a matter of ancient law (teeing up idea that fetuses are constitutionally PROTECTED – no abortion anywhere as matter of conlaw.) And its arguments undermine all of SCOTUS’s gay rights and contraception decisions.

- Back to timing. Draft majorities circulate first, and then concurrences and dissents. So this is about the right timing for concurrences to come out. I think best bet is that Chief Justice Roberts circulated one recently, adopting a more moderate position.


We will soon see.

But the logic is, this was at the very least a clerk for one of our liberal judges. I have a hunch is either Sotomayor or Breyer. Breyer is in his way out, so it may likely be one his clerks doing that as a last try at becoming a 'hero'.

Conservatives aren't that much into leaking to then becoming 'hero'. This has all the hallmarks of a liberal. I might even think Sotomayor herself might have even done this. But we will soon know.

In any case, this is a very low point for the court. Never has this occurred. Liberals are extreme when it comes to abortion, they smeared Kavanaugh and falsely accused him of being a rapist, I am not surprised at this attempt frankly. Its a desperate attempt, in order to stir up the masses and force them to change their ruling.
 
zhiao
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 8:48 pm

CometII wrote:
Ultimately, the middle no longer exists in the United States of America. The "middle" has been successfully turned into a dirty word, a liability, a character flaw... treachery. This is the unholy and perhaps accidental (perhaps not) cooperation between the two ideological fringes of politics. They have spun the narrative and indoctrinated millions through decades of alternative facts (both on the right and left), via talk radio, tabloids, websites, podcast, tweets, and channels, into the narrative of "the other". Tribalism was sanctioned, promoted, made mainstream. And then any deviation from Tribalism, compromise, cooperation, center-based politics, take-a-loss on occasion, was vilified and made toxic. Now they have succeeded. No one in either party can win as a centrist, or even get out of their respective primary. It was bound to infect the highest court.

- College has only become affordable to the wealthy, to the few than can earn full scholarships, or who can lean on minority programs. The average not too high not too low students is sacrificed at the altar of student debt.
- If you are poor, you'll get your Medicare / Medicaid. If you are wealthy, you can travel anywhere you want or pay here. The middle class gets the most inefficient, expensive, low-return health service in human history.

.


Not true on college. Between 2006-07 and 2021-22, the average net tuition and fee price paid by first-time full-time in-state students enrolled in public four-year institutions is lowest in 2021-22 at an estimated $2,640, after peaking in 2012-13 at $3,720 (in 2021 dollars). Even more so, first-time full-time students at public two-year colleges have been receiving enough grant aid on average to cover their tuition and fees. So on net, community college is FREE already on average. So what debt people do accumulate is largely due to people going to private schools (not free anywhere on Earth), Grad School, and people taking out loans for livings costs. These are the facts. Public tuition remains very affordable in the USA.

https://research.collegeboard.org/trend ... %20dollars).-,Between%202006%2D07%20and%202021%2D22%2C%20the%20average%20net,22%20at%20an%20estimated%20%2414%2C990.

And Medicaire goes to everyone over 65, so not sure what you are talking about. It's a great system.
 
emperortk
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 8:50 pm

LittleFokker wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:
[It's not that middle doesn't exist, it's that most people America, especially conservatives, have no freaking clue what the middle is.


Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit item of evidence A, a post horribly divorced from reality:

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage, back in 2008 not even Barack Obama was in favor of Gay marriage. Now we are forced to accept that our children should be thought gender ideology and be allowed if they wish to change their gender. We are merely sticking to our principles and staying put.

The left was center, most of the time during the Clinton years, and part of Obama's first 4 years, after that, the left has moved dramatically whereas the right has had to accept and concede on many things, like I mentioned gay marriage. Yet now, if we don't accept abortion in demand (something Democrats were against in the 90's and early 2000's) we are far Right. The Right has always and consistently believed that Roe was wrong. Nothing there has changed.

Whereas the left is constantly shifting left, to a point that Joe Rogan and many other classical liberals are now considered far right.

The Right is now standing up, no longer willing to let things go, to let things fly, that's it, if we are vocal is because we had enough. For us, its much more than low taxes and no regulation, the left is taking over all institutions, including the nuclear family. That's where most of us, are saying No.

There has always been extreme far right fringe elements, neo nazis, etc, that hasn't ever changed, but the typical right has in fact for the sake of peace and civility accepted many of the things the 'decent' and 'coherent' left has told us they want to be accepted. They told us to leave us alone, we accepted, now they want to go after our children, they want abortion on demand all the way to pregnancy, all sorts of crazy things. The Right instead of moving Right, has drawn a line in the sand and said, that's it.

BTW, Donald Trump wasn't even a far right or even a Right president, he was a center right president. One can argue GWB was more conservative. So no, we haven't moved right.


And the irony of such preposterous claims being made in a thread about the possible overturning of Roe v Wade is too much.

Only 1 in 3 Americans support overturning Roe, and despite such marginal public support, Republicans have strategically pursued that goal... just ask Merrick Garland about that. Republicans have demonstrated their willingness to ban abortions without providing exceptions for rape. Yet, it's the left that has become more extreme. :boggled:
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 9:02 pm

emperortk wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:
[It's not that middle doesn't exist, it's that most people America, especially conservatives, have no freaking clue what the middle is.


Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit item of evidence A, a post horribly divorced from reality:

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage, back in 2008 not even Barack Obama was in favor of Gay marriage. Now we are forced to accept that our children should be thought gender ideology and be allowed if they wish to change their gender. We are merely sticking to our principles and staying put.

The left was center, most of the time during the Clinton years, and part of Obama's first 4 years, after that, the left has moved dramatically whereas the right has had to accept and concede on many things, like I mentioned gay marriage. Yet now, if we don't accept abortion in demand (something Democrats were against in the 90's and early 2000's) we are far Right. The Right has always and consistently believed that Roe was wrong. Nothing there has changed.

Whereas the left is constantly shifting left, to a point that Joe Rogan and many other classical liberals are now considered far right.

The Right is now standing up, no longer willing to let things go, to let things fly, that's it, if we are vocal is because we had enough. For us, its much more than low taxes and no regulation, the left is taking over all institutions, including the nuclear family. That's where most of us, are saying No.

There has always been extreme far right fringe elements, neo nazis, etc, that hasn't ever changed, but the typical right has in fact for the sake of peace and civility accepted many of the things the 'decent' and 'coherent' left has told us they want to be accepted. They told us to leave us alone, we accepted, now they want to go after our children, they want abortion on demand all the way to pregnancy, all sorts of crazy things. The Right instead of moving Right, has drawn a line in the sand and said, that's it.

BTW, Donald Trump wasn't even a far right or even a Right president, he was a center right president. One can argue GWB was more conservative. So no, we haven't moved right.


And the irony of such preposterous claims being made in a thread about the possible overturning of Roe v Wade is too much.

Only 1 in 3 Americans support overturning Roe, and despite such marginal public support, Republicans have strategically pursued that goal... just ask Merrick Garland about that. Republicans have demonstrated their willingness to ban abortions without providing exceptions for rape. Yet, it's the left that has become more extreme. :boggled:



If one were to believe those polls, then why on earth haven't the Democrats managed to make this law? they can if they wish remove the filibuster just for that. It seems that whatever the poll they may bring, there are still a few Democrats unwilling to support codifying Roe.

Its not a popular issue, if not, then this would have been law years ago. Its still and remains a polarizing issue.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 9:04 pm

WAPO: Lawmakers meet after abortion decision draft leaked and address the Press

Republicans at 20:45 and Dems at 46:30

https://youtu.be/cqJq1oU2gww
 
zhiao
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 9:13 pm

emperortk wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:

Only 1 in 3 Americans support overturning Roe, and despite such marginal public support, Republicans have strategically pursued that goal... just ask Merrick Garland about that. Republicans have demonstrated their willingness to ban abortions without providing exceptions for rape. Yet, it's the left that has become more extreme. :boggled:


I also support Roe. If its 1/3 then it should be easy passing a bill making it law, whether at state or federal level. This is always a MUCH better route anyways. You cannot be relying on Judges for progressive goals. If those 2/3 do not vote correctly in tune to their beliefs or do not vote at all, frankly that is their fault.

I am pretty sure even the current Senate can probably pass a bare min bill with the parameters of under 10-15 weeks plus the exceptions that we all know about. Issue solved. Remember you have a bunch of Rep senators in very pro choice states.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 9:19 pm

The solution is so simple, if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one, but don't deny the freedom of others to have one.

For me, it is quite bizarre to see that a political court can have such an impact on society. It seems to be an undemocratic institution with quite some power.
 
emperortk
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 10:23 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
emperortk wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit item of evidence A, a post horribly divorced from reality:



And the irony of such preposterous claims being made in a thread about the possible overturning of Roe v Wade is too much.

Only 1 in 3 Americans support overturning Roe, and despite such marginal public support, Republicans have strategically pursued that goal... just ask Merrick Garland about that. Republicans have demonstrated their willingness to ban abortions without providing exceptions for rape. Yet, it's the left that has become more extreme. :boggled:



If one were to believe those polls, then why on earth haven't the Democrats managed to make this law? they can if they wish remove the filibuster just for that. It seems that whatever the poll they may bring, there are still a few Democrats unwilling to support codifying Roe.

Its not a popular issue, if not, then this would have been law years ago. Its still and remains a polarizing issue.


The fact that Democrats haven't passed a law on abortion does not negate polling (see legalization of marijuana, $15 minimum wage, the STOCK act... there are numerous examples where the action or inaction of Congress is out of step with public opinion).

You are welcome to question the data science and statistical methods behind political polling or dismiss polls as "fake" or "propaganda," but doing so doesn't make the position of overturning Roe any less extreme or change the majority opinion on abortion.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 10:57 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:

- It talks about fetuses being people as a matter of ancient law (teeing up idea that fetuses are constitutionally PROTECTED – no abortion anywhere as matter of conlaw.) And its arguments undermine all of SCOTUS’s gay rights and contraception decisions.


That’s very significant. So it might not be just about “state’s rights”, this could potentially ban abortions in all 50 states and US territories for any reason, rape, incest or even risk to the mother’s life?

Welcome to the United States of Gilead.......
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 10:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The solution is so simple, if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one, but don't deny the freedom of others to have one.

For me, it is quite bizarre to see that a political court can have such an impact on society. It seems to be an undemocratic institution with quite some power.


The function of the court is to interpret the law within the framework of the Constitution. Part of the debate is how much latitude they have in doing so. Some feel they should strictly and only abide by the Constitution. Others feel it's essential for them to adjust interpretations as the times change. The Founders meant for the court to have equal powers to the executive and legislative branches, as a matter of balance.

The issue of constraining what others can do is central to the abortion debate. One side sees it as a matter of rights and freedoms, the other as a moral issue. Why there is little common ground, there are two simultaneous conversations that don't intersect, except in the law as it applies to others.
 
FGITD
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:20 pm

emperortk wrote:
The fact that Democrats haven't passed a law on abortion does not negate polling (see legalization of marijuana, $15 minimum wage, the STOCK act... there are numerous examples where the action or inaction of Congress is out of step with public opinion).


What a crazy notion, that Congress doesn’t really act on behalf of the actual interests of the people. Almost as if the system in the US is accidentally giving the minority a bit too much of a say.

As mentioned, look no further than congress and the stock market. Damn near everyone agrees that they shouldn’t be allowed to conduct any sort of insider trading…but Congress doesn’t like that, so they get to play by different rules
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:22 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
CometII wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

I beg to differ in regards to the Right. The Right hasn't shifted nor moved to the right. In fact we have moved to the left. We have had to accept gay marriage, back in 2008 not even Barack Obama was in favor of Gay marriage. Now we are forced to accept that our children should be thought gender ideology and be allowed if they wish to change their gender. We are merely sticking to our principles and staying put.

The left was center, most of the time during the Clinton years, and part of Obama's first 4 years, after that, the left has moved dramatically whereas the right has had to accept and concede on many things, like I mentioned gay marriage. Yet now, if we don't accept abortion in demand (something Democrats were against in the 90's and early 2000's) we are far Right. The Right has always and consistently believed that Roe was wrong. Nothing there has changed.

Whereas the left is constantly shifting left, to a point that Joe Rogan and many other classical liberals are now considered far right.

The Right is now standing up, no longer willing to let things go, to let things fly, that's it, if we are vocal is because we had enough. For us, its much more than low taxes and no regulation, the left is taking over all institutions, including the nuclear family. That's where most of us, are saying No.

There has always been extreme far right fringe elements, neo nazis, etc, that hasn't ever changed, but the typical right has in fact for the sake of peace and civility accepted many of the things the 'decent' and 'coherent' left has told us they want to be accepted. They told us to leave us alone, we accepted, now they want to go after our children, they want abortion on demand all the way to pregnancy, all sorts of crazy things. The Right instead of moving Right, has drawn a line in the sand and said, that's it.

BTW, Donald Trump wasn't even a far right or even a Right president, he was a center right president. One can argue GWB was more conservative. So no, we haven't moved right.


I mostly don't agree, but this is based on what I just wrote above. Both the left and the right think they are not extremist in their platforms, but I'm not even debating that here.

The extreme I was talking about in my quoted text clearly is the triumph and acceptance of Tribalism. What has become extreme are not the actual positions on economic or social policy necessarily (liberals have always wanted universal healthcare, conservatives have always wanted pro-life laws, those have not radically change I will give you that), but rather the TACTICS to achieve those aims. Both sides are now openly trampling on the Separation of Powers, on state's rights, on federal rights, on individual rights, even on the Constitution itself, to get their agendas across the finish line: from abusing the Filibuster, to outrageous Gerrymandering, to blocking votes a year or more on the pretext of "letting the people vote", to suggestions of packing the court, and now even punishing individuals for activities they perform in other states if such an activity is deemed illegal in their state of residence.

Those are all unequivocally anti-American, anti-republicanism, anti-democracy, anti-stability maneuvers. That is the extremist danger at present, not so much on policy, but on how the republic itself operates.

Then when the voters throw the incumbents out, of course, the new majority in power concludes it must pursue even more radical, extreme measures to undo all of that which the last round of extreme measures enacted by "the other" accomplished. And thus the nation's stewardship, like a ship at mercy, is swung ever-increasingly from port to starboard, from starboard to port. It will capsize at some point and millions will be destroyed and millions more severely harmed.


There is tribalism for sure, on both sides. Social media may have played a role in that. That could make somethings that aren't supposed to be loud, seem louder than what they should.


And it was exemplified in your post by using 'we' several times instead of 'I'. Hello, tribalism, thou is thy name.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:24 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
emperortk wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit item of evidence A, a post horribly divorced from reality:



And the irony of such preposterous claims being made in a thread about the possible overturning of Roe v Wade is too much.

Only 1 in 3 Americans support overturning Roe, and despite such marginal public support, Republicans have strategically pursued that goal... just ask Merrick Garland about that. Republicans have demonstrated their willingness to ban abortions without providing exceptions for rape. Yet, it's the left that has become more extreme. :boggled:



If one were to believe those polls, then why on earth haven't the Democrats managed to make this law? they can if they wish remove the filibuster just for that. It seems that whatever the poll they may bring, there are still a few Democrats unwilling to support codifying Roe.

Its not a popular issue, if not, then this would have been law years ago. Its still and remains a polarizing issue.


Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.
 
luckyone
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
emperortk wrote:

And the irony of such preposterous claims being made in a thread about the possible overturning of Roe v Wade is too much.

Only 1 in 3 Americans support overturning Roe, and despite such marginal public support, Republicans have strategically pursued that goal... just ask Merrick Garland about that. Republicans have demonstrated their willingness to ban abortions without providing exceptions for rape. Yet, it's the left that has become more extreme. :boggled:



If one were to believe those polls, then why on earth haven't the Democrats managed to make this law? they can if they wish remove the filibuster just for that. It seems that whatever the poll they may bring, there are still a few Democrats unwilling to support codifying Roe.

Its not a popular issue, if not, then this would have been law years ago. Its still and remains a polarizing issue.


Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.

Yeah silly me I was under the assumption that if a right was protected it didn’t need to be enumerated. Kinda like the ERA…
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:27 pm

luckyone wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


If one were to believe those polls, then why on earth haven't the Democrats managed to make this law? they can if they wish remove the filibuster just for that. It seems that whatever the poll they may bring, there are still a few Democrats unwilling to support codifying Roe.

Its not a popular issue, if not, then this would have been law years ago. Its still and remains a polarizing issue.


Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.

Yeah silly me I was under the assumption that if a right was protected it didn’t need to be enumerated. Kinda like the ERA…


Right?? It's almost like a lot of Americans were't paying attention in high school civics, yet still have strong opinions, or something...
 
luckyone
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.

Yeah silly me I was under the assumption that if a right was protected it didn’t need to be enumerated. Kinda like the ERA…


Right?? It's almost like a lot of Americans were't paying attention in high school civics, yet still have strong opinions, or something...

Well we could take the devils advocate and assert the Republican view that because they or their parents were born in a different country they never learned our civics in the first place.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
emperortk wrote:

And the irony of such preposterous claims being made in a thread about the possible overturning of Roe v Wade is too much.

Only 1 in 3 Americans support overturning Roe, and despite such marginal public support, Republicans have strategically pursued that goal... just ask Merrick Garland about that. Republicans have demonstrated their willingness to ban abortions without providing exceptions for rape. Yet, it's the left that has become more extreme. :boggled:



If one were to believe those polls, then why on earth haven't the Democrats managed to make this law? they can if they wish remove the filibuster just for that. It seems that whatever the poll they may bring, there are still a few Democrats unwilling to support codifying Roe.

Its not a popular issue, if not, then this would have been law years ago. Its still and remains a polarizing issue.


Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.


There is precedent to overurn ROE, its DRED SCOTT.

Dont know why its so hard to actually legislate and put into words the ‘sacred right’ of abortion. If its so popular it would have been law ages ago.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:35 pm

luckyone wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Yeah silly me I was under the assumption that if a right was protected it didn’t need to be enumerated. Kinda like the ERA…


Right?? It's almost like a lot of Americans were't paying attention in high school civics, yet still have strong opinions, or something...

Well we could take the devils advocate and assert the Republican view that because they or their parents were born in a different country they never learned our civics in the first place.


Indeed. Or the contemporary view that everything taught in public schools is a form of propaganda to be countered with 'correct' information from parents and social media.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:39 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


If one were to believe those polls, then why on earth haven't the Democrats managed to make this law? they can if they wish remove the filibuster just for that. It seems that whatever the poll they may bring, there are still a few Democrats unwilling to support codifying Roe.

Its not a popular issue, if not, then this would have been law years ago. Its still and remains a polarizing issue.


Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.


There is precedent to overurn ROE, its DRED SCOTT.

Dont know why its so hard to actually legislate and put into words the ‘sacred right’ of abortion. If its so popular it would have been law ages ago.


Nakedly illogical statement. The discussion topic was not precedent to overturn a court decision or ease of legislation. Moving the goalposts does not change reality.

You are insisting the law needs to be established, but you seem to have never read the Roe majority opinion itself. If you have, and understand the contents of the 14th amendment, you'd understand why no legislation was necessary.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:43 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.


There is precedent to overurn ROE, its DRED SCOTT.

Dont know why its so hard to actually legislate and put into words the ‘sacred right’ of abortion. If its so popular it would have been law ages ago.


Nakedly illogical statement. The discussion topic was not precedent to overturn a court decision or ease of legislation. Moving the goalposts does not change reality.

You are insisting the law needs to be established, but you seem to have never read the Roe majority opinion itself. If you have, and understand the contents of the 14th amendment, you'd understand why no legislation was necessary.

I would refer to you to Alito’s majority opinion on why thats not a justification for ROE.

He explained it better than me.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:49 pm

I think we’re all getting too caught up in the legal fine print here.

Let’s concentrate on the primary issue, we’re about to revert to a 1950s era of back alley abortions, coat hangars, women dying from unsafe procedures, more unwanted pregnancies, increased trauma for rape victims, and the potential for more religion based restrictions being imposed on a now largely secular nation.

This ruling could be a landmark event in the history of America, just not in the way the GOP intended.
 
luckyone
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:51 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
I think we’re all getting too caught up in the legal fine print here.

Let’s concentrate on the primary issue, we’re about to revert to a 1950s era of back alley abortions, coat hangars, women dying from unsafe procedures, more unwanted pregnancies, increased trauma for rape victims, and the potential for more religion based restrictions being imposed on a now largely secular nation.

This ruling could be a landmark event in the history of America, just not in the way the GOP intended.

We have an excellent modern example of what a policy like this does: Ceaușescu‘s Romania. Thousands of orphans, with nowhere to go. And a state that let them rot.
 
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Tue May 03, 2022 11:51 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

There is precedent to overurn ROE, its DRED SCOTT.

Dont know why its so hard to actually legislate and put into words the ‘sacred right’ of abortion. If its so popular it would have been law ages ago.


Nakedly illogical statement. The discussion topic was not precedent to overturn a court decision or ease of legislation. Moving the goalposts does not change reality.

You are insisting the law needs to be established, but you seem to have never read the Roe majority opinion itself. If you have, and understand the contents of the 14th amendment, you'd understand why no legislation was necessary.

I would refer to you to Alito’s majority opinion on why thats not a justification for ROE.

He explained it better than me.


He didn't explain anything, all I read was a bunch of emotional rhetoric.

Roe on the other hand was nuanced, and tried to balance the difficult question of individual rights and state policy:

The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute...We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.

And took a very middle of the road position on the origin of life:

Texas urges that, apart from the Fourteenth Amendment, life begins at conception and is present throughout pregnancy, and that, therefore, the State has a compelling interest in protecting that life from and after conception. We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/410/113

Alito is doing none of the above in his draft. Anyone who can use an ounce of logic can see the difference.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:02 am

luckyone wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
I think we’re all getting too caught up in the legal fine print here.

Let’s concentrate on the primary issue, we’re about to revert to a 1950s era of back alley abortions, coat hangars, women dying from unsafe procedures, more unwanted pregnancies, increased trauma for rape victims, and the potential for more religion based restrictions being imposed on a now largely secular nation.

This ruling could be a landmark event in the history of America, just not in the way the GOP intended.

We have an excellent modern example of what a policy like this does: Ceaușescu‘s Romania. Thousands of orphans, with nowhere to go. And a state that let them rot.


Is anything much done in the US to reduce the abortion rate, noting that the lowest rates are in countries where abortion is legal?
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:09 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Is anything much done in the US to reduce the abortion rate, noting that the lowest rates are in countries where abortion is legal?


Well you can reduce abortions with comprehensive sexual education, which Republicans hate,

Or widespread access to contraceptives, which Republicans hate,

Or strong social welfare to care for children after birth, which Republicans hate,

Or making adoption easier by same sex couples, which Republicans hate.

I’m seeing a pattern here.......
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:10 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Is anything much done in the US to reduce the abortion rate, noting that the lowest rates are in countries where abortion is legal?


Well you can reduce abortions with comprehensive sexual education, which Republicans hate,

Or widespread access to contraceptives, which Republicans hate,

Or strong social welfare to care for children after birth, which Republicans hate,

Or making adoption easier by same sex couples, which Republicans hate.

I’m seeing a pattern here.......


Because they think theocratic indoctrination works....until the megachurch pastor ends up caught with male prostitutes or paying for abortions of teenage admirers. :sarcastic:
 
Newark727
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:13 am

Kent350787 wrote:
Is anything much done in the US to reduce the abortion rate, noting that the lowest rates are in countries where abortion is legal?


No. The actual goal is to punish women for having sex. Remember that Roe v. Wade only really became a rallying point after the battle to keep schools racially segregated had been given up and the voters who were motivated on that issue had to be kept in the fold - that's who the pro-life movement is trying to please.
 
luckyone
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:16 am

Newark727 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Is anything much done in the US to reduce the abortion rate, noting that the lowest rates are in countries where abortion is legal?


No. The actual goal is to punish women for having sex. Remember that Roe v. Wade only really became a rallying point after the battle to keep schools racially segregated had been given up and the voters who were motivated on that issue had to be kept in the fold - that's who the pro-life movement is trying to please.

Amazing how those folks don’t appear to be intellectually interested in anything else.
 
Ken777
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:42 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

However, there is a reason its so hard. Civil rights which was a very serious issue, was despite the difficulty making changes to laws, codified in the 1960's. The same way back to slavery after the civil war, hard but done.

Some topics are hard because they are polarizing, if abortion isn't that polarizing, this so called 'law' wouldn't have been enshrined into law by un-elected for life appointed judges. Instead it would have been federal law.



When you think about it, Civil Rights is still a battle for the outcasts. many states, like Texas, has been working hard to keep people of color from voting - over 400 new laws on the "We don't like people of color" area have hit the various Congresses in the US since Trump got his plump ass dragged through a 7 million vote loss. Part (especially in the South) are flavored from the loss of slavery as well - look at the agony they are suffering from the confederate flag being pulled down. Get rid of those laws and we might have a chance, but I doubt if that is going to happen.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 1:22 am

Businesses across the country are now going to have to reevaluate how to provide for their employees in states that support the criminalization of women's choices on their own bodies.

Clashes such as Disney and Desantis will become the norm, rather than the exception going forward.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consum ... -rcna27167

Yelp and other tech companies — including Bumble, Salesforce and Apple — were among the corporations that explicitly told employees in states that have begun to restrict abortion access, such as Texas, that they would reimburse them for abortion-related expenses.

Bumble said it was dismayed by the draft opinion and would continue to cover such expenses.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 5:39 am

I'm pro choice and think reversing Roe like that is doing it wrong, however I agree with the basic argument that a centuries old dusty paper doesn't cover that right : the US constitution is simply outdated. The supreme court is just making an argument for its own irrelevance.

There should be a simple federal law covering the basics, and it should be easy to pass, if Congress really represented the people.

From what I read about the opinion (the Politico article, basically), Alito is making jokes in his opinion, insulting people, being disingenuous all along, not caring one bit about the consequences. Nice way to make history.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 6:14 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The solution is so simple, if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one, but don't deny the freedom of others to have one.

For me, it is quite bizarre to see that a political court can have such an impact on society. It seems to be an undemocratic institution with quite some power.


The function of the court is to interpret the law within the framework of the Constitution. Part of the debate is how much latitude they have in doing so. Some feel they should strictly and only abide by the Constitution. Others feel it's essential for them to adjust interpretations as the times change. The Founders meant for the court to have equal powers to the executive and legislative branches, as a matter of balance.

The issue of constraining what others can do is central to the abortion debate. One side sees it as a matter of rights and freedoms, the other as a moral issue. Why there is little common ground, there are two simultaneous conversations that don't intersect, except in the law as it applies to others.

If the moral obligation is to enforce the use of one individuals bodily resources to save another then what logical reason would it stop at foetus’s? We can only assume that people will be forced to give blood against their will too if someone else needs it…or be intellectually dishonest.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 6:37 am

Aesma wrote:
I'm pro choice and think reversing Roe like that is doing it wrong, however I agree with the basic argument that a centuries old dusty paper doesn't cover that right : the US constitution is simply outdated. The supreme court is just making an argument for its own irrelevance.


Americans will not like it, but I see quite some parallels between how the Quran is treated by Muslims and the American constitution by some. Some see it as absolute. And that indeed doesn't work in a modern context. The founding fathers have made quite some systematic errors as we can experience every day when looking at American politics.

Aesma wrote:
From what I read about the opinion (the Politico article, basically), Alito is making jokes in his opinion, insulting people, being disingenuous all along, not caring one bit about the consequences. Nice way to make history.


Makes one wonder why this document was leaked, someone has an agenda and the list of people who had access to it should be quite short.
 
cpd
Posts: 7237
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 8:17 am

Maybe someone wanted to make life awkward for the judges. Now to find out who it was and punish them severely. Maybe render them off to Eastern Europe for an extraordinary one way holiday?
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 906
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 9:35 am

casinterest wrote:
Businesses across the country are now going to have to reevaluate how to provide for their employees in states that support the criminalization of women's choices on their own bodies.

Clashes such as Disney and Desantis will become the norm, rather than the exception going forward.


It’s good businesses will take the lead on the fight for reproductive rights as the Democrats aren’t.

They have the White House and both houses of Congress now, they could pass a federal right to abortion law, they don’t as they’re too weak to stand up to Manchin.

Obama could have told RBG to step down in 2016 but no she wanted to hold out to let Hillary appoint her replacement, well look how that turned out.

This should galvanise the Democrats at the mid terms, but if there’s any team that could turn an easy win into a loss it’s the Democrats.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4521
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 9:40 am

If the intention is to leave parasites embedded in victims who don’t want them utilising the bodily resources are we going to see an increase in lyme disease?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
bpatus297
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 11:21 am

zhiao wrote:
CometII wrote:
Ultimately, the middle no longer exists in the United States of America. The "middle" has been successfully turned into a dirty word, a liability, a character flaw... treachery. This is the unholy and perhaps accidental (perhaps not) cooperation between the two ideological fringes of politics. They have spun the narrative and indoctrinated millions through decades of alternative facts (both on the right and left), via talk radio, tabloids, websites, podcast, tweets, and channels, into the narrative of "the other". Tribalism was sanctioned, promoted, made mainstream. And then any deviation from Tribalism, compromise, cooperation, center-based politics, take-a-loss on occasion, was vilified and made toxic. Now they have succeeded. No one in either party can win as a centrist, or even get out of their respective primary. It was bound to infect the highest court.

- College has only become affordable to the wealthy, to the few than can earn full scholarships, or who can lean on minority programs. The average not too high not too low students is sacrificed at the altar of student debt.
- If you are poor, you'll get your Medicare / Medicaid. If you are wealthy, you can travel anywhere you want or pay here. The middle class gets the most inefficient, expensive, low-return health service in human history.

.


Not true on college. Between 2006-07 and 2021-22, the average net tuition and fee price paid by first-time full-time in-state students enrolled in public four-year institutions is lowest in 2021-22 at an estimated $2,640, after peaking in 2012-13 at $3,720 (in 2021 dollars). Even more so, first-time full-time students at public two-year colleges have been receiving enough grant aid on average to cover their tuition and fees. So on net, community college is FREE already on average. So what debt people do accumulate is largely due to people going to private schools (not free anywhere on Earth), Grad School, and people taking out loans for livings costs. These are the facts. Public tuition remains very affordable in the USA.

https://research.collegeboard.org/trend ... %20dollars).-,Between%202006%2D07%20and%202021%2D22%2C%20the%20average%20net,22%20at%20an%20estimated%20%2414%2C990.

And Medicaire goes to everyone over 65, so not sure what you are talking about. It's a great system.


Myself and my kiddo are looking at college, your claim about the cost of college is just 100% patently false. I don't care where the numbers are coming from, I am dealing with the reality of college admissions right now. We are seeing about 25K after tuition, room and board, and all other fees for the cheaper 4 year accredited schools. Tuition is about 8-10K of that, colleges have hidden higher tutition costs in fees.

https://www.jmu.edu/admissions/tuition- ... 2a9c5b89a8

https://onestop.utexas.edu/managing-cos ... ion-rates/

https://www.ohio.edu/admissions/tuition ... 992cf4ded7

https://financialaid.ua.edu/cost/?msclk ... 7b9e475b76

https://www.sfa.ufl.edu/cost/?msclkid=7 ... ae581566aa
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