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bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 11:39 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
emperortk wrote:

And the irony of such preposterous claims being made in a thread about the possible overturning of Roe v Wade is too much.

Only 1 in 3 Americans support overturning Roe, and despite such marginal public support, Republicans have strategically pursued that goal... just ask Merrick Garland about that. Republicans have demonstrated their willingness to ban abortions without providing exceptions for rape. Yet, it's the left that has become more extreme. :boggled:



If one were to believe those polls, then why on earth haven't the Democrats managed to make this law? they can if they wish remove the filibuster just for that. It seems that whatever the poll they may bring, there are still a few Democrats unwilling to support codifying Roe.

Its not a popular issue, if not, then this would have been law years ago. Its still and remains a polarizing issue.


Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.


I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 11:41 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
I think we’re all getting too caught up in the legal fine print here.

Let’s concentrate on the primary issue, we’re about to revert to a 1950s era of back alley abortions, coat hangars, women dying from unsafe procedures, more unwanted pregnancies, increased trauma for rape victims, and the potential for more religion based restrictions being imposed on a now largely secular nation.

This ruling could be a landmark event in the history of America, just not in the way the GOP intended.


The SCOTUS is supposed to be caught up in the legal fine print, that's their job.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 11:49 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Is anything much done in the US to reduce the abortion rate, noting that the lowest rates are in countries where abortion is legal?


Well you can reduce abortions with comprehensive sexual education, which Republicans hate,

Or widespread access to contraceptives, which Republicans hate,

Or strong social welfare to care for children after birth, which Republicans hate,

Or making adoption easier by same sex couples, which Republicans hate.

I’m seeing a pattern here.......


The pattern is you spouting off talking points that paints half of the country with a very broad brush. Pretty sure that most people in the republican party don't fit all, or even any of those talking points. Of course some do, but not all or even most (my opinion). I guess no republican women use the pill or men use condoms. No wonder the divide is as great as it is, people throw out garbage like this and assume the other side is everything that the media tells they what they should think the other side is. Congress and politicians, both republican and democrats, are very very broken. Most of America, right and left, don't fit in the the nice and tidy boxes that the media wants to put people into. Talk to people and actually listen to other options other than listening to find flaws and point them out.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:25 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
Is anything much done in the US to reduce the abortion rate, noting that the lowest rates are in countries where abortion is legal?


Well you can reduce abortions with comprehensive sexual education, which Republicans hate,

Or widespread access to contraceptives, which Republicans hate,

Or strong social welfare to care for children after birth, which Republicans hate,

Or making adoption easier by same sex couples, which Republicans hate.

I’m seeing a pattern here.......


The pattern is you spouting off talking points that paints half of the country with a very broad brush. Pretty sure that most people in the republican party don't fit all, or even any of those talking points. Of course some do, but not all or even most (my opinion). I guess no republican women use the pill or men use condoms. No wonder the divide is as great as it is, people throw out garbage like this and assume the other side is everything that the media tells they what they should think the other side is. Congress and politicians, both republican and democrats, are very very broken. Most of America, right and left, don't fit in the the nice and tidy boxes that the media wants to put people into. Talk to people and actually listen to other options other than listening to find flaws and point them out.

The problem is that someone else’s opinion is worth the square root of jack shit when it comes to regulating someone else’s body. I don’t get to have an opinion on how you choose to use your own blood, society can’t decide that someone else can forcibly remove an organ from you… if a woman doesn’t want to use her resources to support another person that’s no different be that giving a kidney to a drug user, or a foetus in the womb. Her choice!

Fred


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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:31 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


If one were to believe those polls, then why on earth haven't the Democrats managed to make this law? they can if they wish remove the filibuster just for that. It seems that whatever the poll they may bring, there are still a few Democrats unwilling to support codifying Roe.

Its not a popular issue, if not, then this would have been law years ago. Its still and remains a polarizing issue.


Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.


I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.


There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:34 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.


I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.


There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

And just because something may be a life why should you be forced to give up your resources for it?

Who here is in favor of enforced blood donation?

Fred
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:46 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.


There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

And just because something may be a life why should you be forced to give up your resources for it?

Who here is in favor of enforced blood donation?

Fred


Exactly - preserving life can be flipped around to argue that everyone should be levied a percentage of tax according to income to ensure all citizens have healthcare coverage.
 
emperortk
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:53 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

And just because something may be a life why should you be forced to give up your resources for it?

Who here is in favor of enforced blood donation?

Fred


Exactly - preserving life can be flipped around to argue that everyone should be levied a percentage of tax according to income to ensure all citizens have healthcare coverage.


And why should it be limited to human life? If I have a dearly-held non-religious belief that eating animals is immoral and evil, can I use that as a legal justification to ban meat consumption for everyone?

As others have pointed out. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. No one is ever going to force you to have one, so why should anyone be forced to carry a pregnancy to term?
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 12:59 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If the case is decided as in the draft, Mississippi law will ban abortions after 15 weeks. In Norway and France, the limit is 12 weeks.


Hold your horses. Current Norwegian legislation and public health policy provides for abortion on request in the first 12 weeks of gestation, by application up to the 18th week, and thereafter only under special circumstances until the fetus is viable. I asked my doctor friend, he's never heard of anyone having a request to abort up to 18 weeks declined, he said it might happen but not to his knowledge.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 1:05 pm

emperortk wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
And just because something may be a life why should you be forced to give up your resources for it?

Who here is in favor of enforced blood donation?

Fred


Exactly - preserving life can be flipped around to argue that everyone should be levied a percentage of tax according to income to ensure all citizens have healthcare coverage.


And why should it be limited to human life? If I have a dearly-held non-religious belief that eating animals is immoral and evil, can I use that as a legal justification to ban meat consumption for everyone?

As others have pointed out. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. No one is ever going to force you to have one, so why should anyone be forced to carry a pregnancy to term?


Yep, same argument for same-sex marriage. If you don't like it, don't have one. Anything else is trying to force your interpretation of 'proper lifestyle' on others.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 1:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Because it's not necessary. Roe invoked the 14th amendment, there was nothing new to be written. And it's only a polarizing issue because some people can't keep their religion-based morality out of other people's business.


I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.


There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.


The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 1:21 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.


There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

And just because something may be a life why should you be forced to give up your resources for it?

Who here is in favor of enforced blood donation?

Fred


Tissue (blood) and organ donation are not even in the same ball park as a fetus. If the fetus is a life (no consensuses on when that is) you have to "give up your resources" to support that life since its a possible outcome from your actions (sex). Of course this is if the sex was consensual, but lets not pretend that rape and incest are a leading cause of abortions. The USA Today claims that less than .5% of all abortions are from rape and incest (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/24/rape-and-incest-account-few-abortions-so-why-all-attention/1211175001/?msclkid=b0cba113cbad11eca47e447de769bc8a By your logic, you shouldn't have to "give up your resources" for any consequences of your actions.
Last edited by bpatus297 on Wed May 04, 2022 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
QF7
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 1:23 pm

The discussion / debate here has degenerated as it always does everywhere to complaining about what is wrong about the other side’s thinking, how dare they impose their morality on me, etc., etc.

Which misses a key point.

In a free society everyone has the right to advocate for, donate money for, vote for, any position they believe in. The pro-life side has been very clear and unwavering about their goal for decades. No amount of arguing and beseeching from the pro-choice side about what they “should” believe has made the slightest difference (maybe a few individuals have been won over but not enough to matter).

It’s not about what somebody “should” believe, it is about what they “do” believe. And what that motivates them to do.

Republicans have been steadfast, tenacious, aggressive, even ruthless, in pursuing their goal. Democrats have been relying on institutional norms and precedent and the imagined advantage of public opinion polling. In short, Democrats have not fought fire with fire. And as a result they’ve been outflanked and out maneuvered.

The left can continue to whine about how unfair and unprincipled and privacy-invasive and authoritarian the Republicans are. Or they can - finally - get hard-knuckled about politics and put up a real fight. Their choice.
 
zhiao
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 1:26 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
zhiao wrote:
CometII wrote:
Ultimately, the middle no longer exists in the United States of America. The "middle" has been successfully turned into a dirty word, a liability, a character flaw... treachery. This is the unholy and perhaps accidental (perhaps not) cooperation between the two ideological fringes of politics. They have spun the narrative and indoctrinated millions through decades of alternative facts (both on the right and left), via talk radio, tabloids, websites, podcast, tweets, and channels, into the narrative of "the other". Tribalism was sanctioned, promoted, made mainstream. And then any deviation from Tribalism, compromise, cooperation, center-based politics, take-a-loss on occasion, was vilified and made toxic. Now they have succeeded. No one in either party can win as a centrist, or even get out of their respective primary. It was bound to infect the highest court.

- College has only become affordable to the wealthy, to the few than can earn full scholarships, or who can lean on minority programs. The average not too high not too low students is sacrificed at the altar of student debt.
- If you are poor, you'll get your Medicare / Medicaid. If you are wealthy, you can travel anywhere you want or pay here. The middle class gets the most inefficient, expensive, low-return health service in human history.

.


Not true on college. Between 2006-07 and 2021-22, the average net tuition and fee price paid by first-time full-time in-state students enrolled in public four-year institutions is lowest in 2021-22 at an estimated $2,640, after peaking in 2012-13 at $3,720 (in 2021 dollars). Even more so, first-time full-time students at public two-year colleges have been receiving enough grant aid on average to cover their tuition and fees. So on net, community college is FREE already on average. So what debt people do accumulate is largely due to people going to private schools (not free anywhere on Earth), Grad School, and people taking out loans for livings costs. These are the facts. Public tuition remains very affordable in the USA.

https://research.collegeboard.org/trend ... %20dollars).-,Between%202006%2D07%20and%202021%2D22%2C%20the%20average%20net,22%20at%20an%20estimated%20%2414%2C990.

And Medicaire goes to everyone over 65, so not sure what you are talking about. It's a great system.


Myself and my kiddo are looking at college, your claim about the cost of college is just 100% patently false. I don't care where the numbers are coming from, I am dealing with the reality of college admissions right now. We are seeing about 25K after tuition, room and board, and all other fees for the cheaper 4 year accredited schools. Tuition is about 8-10K of that, colleges have hidden higher tutition costs in fees.

https://www.jmu.edu/admissions/tuition- ... 2a9c5b89a8

https://onestop.utexas.edu/managing-cos ... ion-rates/

https://www.ohio.edu/admissions/tuition ... 992cf4ded7

https://financialaid.ua.edu/cost/?msclk ... 7b9e475b76

https://www.sfa.ufl.edu/cost/?msclkid=7 ... ae581566aa


Net tuition = published tuition minus aid and scholarships received. That's what the source was talking about. Obviously rent (i.e. room and board) will cost more and so will; (shocker!) food. But remember even the Bernie plan to make tuition free only covers tuition and not room and board. Room and board is a luxury not a right. I never lived in a dorm and most people in the world who go to college do not either. If the net cost of tuition is $3,000 and one cannot afford say $14,000 in living expenses, then do what most do and get a part time job just like anyone else who pays for rent. Rent and food isn't free for anyone.
Last edited by zhiao on Wed May 04, 2022 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4521
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 1:28 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

And just because something may be a life why should you be forced to give up your resources for it?

Who here is in favor of enforced blood donation?

Fred


Tissue (blood) and organ donation are not even in the same ball park as a fetus.


I'm not suggesting they are, I'm suggesting that even if a foetus is a life then the equivalent is the person who needs a blood transfusion or kidney. I cannot be forced to give my kidney to a person no matter how deserving they might be just as a woman cannot be forced to give her life giving nutrients to a foetus.

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.


There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.


The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.
Why does it matter if its a life or not, saying as such is just an emotionally driven obfuscation tactic. Why should anyone be forced to give up their personal resources without consent. It is equivalent to enforced kidney donation.

Fred
 
bpatus297
Posts: 777
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 1:33 pm

zhiao wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
zhiao wrote:

Not true on college. Between 2006-07 and 2021-22, the average net tuition and fee price paid by first-time full-time in-state students enrolled in public four-year institutions is lowest in 2021-22 at an estimated $2,640, after peaking in 2012-13 at $3,720 (in 2021 dollars). Even more so, first-time full-time students at public two-year colleges have been receiving enough grant aid on average to cover their tuition and fees. So on net, community college is FREE already on average. So what debt people do accumulate is largely due to people going to private schools (not free anywhere on Earth), Grad School, and people taking out loans for livings costs. These are the facts. Public tuition remains very affordable in the USA.

https://research.collegeboard.org/trend ... %20dollars).-,Between%202006%2D07%20and%202021%2D22%2C%20the%20average%20net,22%20at%20an%20estimated%20%2414%2C990.

And Medicaire goes to everyone over 65, so not sure what you are talking about. It's a great system.


Myself and my kiddo are looking at college, your claim about the cost of college is just 100% patently false. I don't care where the numbers are coming from, I am dealing with the reality of college admissions right now. We are seeing about 25K after tuition, room and board, and all other fees for the cheaper 4 year accredited schools. Tuition is about 8-10K of that, colleges have hidden higher tutition costs in fees.

https://www.jmu.edu/admissions/tuition- ... 2a9c5b89a8

https://onestop.utexas.edu/managing-cos ... ion-rates/

https://www.ohio.edu/admissions/tuition ... 992cf4ded7

https://financialaid.ua.edu/cost/?msclk ... 7b9e475b76

https://www.sfa.ufl.edu/cost/?msclkid=7 ... ae581566aa


Net tuition = published tuition minus aid and scholarships received. That's what the source was talking about. Obviously rent (i.e. room and board) will cost more and so will; (shocker!) food. But remember even the Bernie plan to make tuition free only covers tuition and not room and board. Room and board is a luxury not a right. I never lived in a dorm and most people in the world who go to college do not either.


Most freshmen live in a dorm then move out after that. A lot of colleges require that freshmen live with parents or on campus. I also think its disingenuous to not include the total cost of college when talking about if its affordable or not. Community college is a good choice for those who are going to have a hard time affording it It may not be as prestigious, but it will lead you down the path to a degree.
 
N867DA
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 1:40 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.


There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.


The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.


I am a person. Suppose you invite me for tea at your house. I enjoy the tea, and you ask me to leave your property. I don't leave. Do you have any legal recourse? Am I trespassing?

Suppose a fetus is a person (I personally don't think this is true, but let's suppose). What gives that person the right to occupy space inside another person against their own will? Is there some constitutional right to occupy space inside another person prior to birth? Which amendment is that?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:00 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Businesses across the country are now going to have to reevaluate how to provide for their employees in states that support the criminalization of women's choices on their own bodies.

Clashes such as Disney and Desantis will become the norm, rather than the exception going forward.


It’s good businesses will take the lead on the fight for reproductive rights as the Democrats aren’t.

They have the White House and both houses of Congress now, they could pass a federal right to abortion law, they don’t as they’re too weak to stand up to Manchin.

Obama could have told RBG to step down in 2016 but no she wanted to hold out to let Hillary appoint her replacement, well look how that turned out.

This should galvanise the Democrats at the mid terms, but if there’s any team that could turn an easy win into a loss it’s the Democrats.



It isn't about standing up to Manchin. It is about horse trading. Manchin represents a state that went 68%+ for Trump in 2020. Manchin could caucus with the Democrats and lose his next election completely.

People made mistakes in believing that Americans actually care about corruption, racism, and fraud. Trump won by wooing the folks that continually make choices that ruin their own lives. He told them to blame others, and they listened. Clinton would have won if her team had recognized how much insipid racism and misogyny still existed within the rural areas of the country. Mitch McConnell proved to be a corrupt anti American traitor along with Trump. They were able to push three very white nationalistic judges onto the Supreme Court. When coupled with Thomas and Alito, it can be seen throug Alito's own writings that their is a longing for ancient corrupt beliefs that demonize women.

The Democrats can finally run on that, and maybe highlight to big business and women that the GOP is a corrupt abusive parry going forward. I think eventually the democrats will split into multiple parties, but I think for now this will Galvanize the party going forward into fighting for the human rights that are currently most at stake.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:05 pm

N867DA wrote:

Suppose a fetus is a person (I personally don't think this is true, but let's suppose). What gives that person the right to occupy space inside another person against their own will? Is there some constitutional right to occupy space inside another person prior to birth? Which amendment is that?


Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:09 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
N867DA wrote:

Suppose a fetus is a person (I personally don't think this is true, but let's suppose). What gives that person the right to occupy space inside another person against their own will? Is there some constitutional right to occupy space inside another person prior to birth? Which amendment is that?


Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?


Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:13 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.


There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.


The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.


That’s just their view. Since courts have to consider issues well beyond just ‘views’ it’s tantamount to nothing.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:14 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
N867DA wrote:

Suppose a fetus is a person (I personally don't think this is true, but let's suppose). What gives that person the right to occupy space inside another person against their own will? Is there some constitutional right to occupy space inside another person prior to birth? Which amendment is that?


Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?


Say what?? Mind, boggled.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:15 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
N867DA wrote:

Suppose a fetus is a person (I personally don't think this is true, but let's suppose). What gives that person the right to occupy space inside another person against their own will? Is there some constitutional right to occupy space inside another person prior to birth? Which amendment is that?


Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?


Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


Nope, its called child endangerment/abandonment. You would face prison time if you do that. CA which has one of the most liberal abortion laws has laws against this https://www.findlaw.com/state/californi ... -laws.html

BTW, you just proved with adoption that abortion is not the only choice.
Last edited by AirWorthy99 on Wed May 04, 2022 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:15 pm

QF7 wrote:
The discussion / debate here has degenerated as it always does everywhere to complaining about what is wrong about the other side’s thinking, how dare they impose their morality on me, etc., etc.

Which misses a key point.

In a free society everyone has the right to advocate for, donate money for, vote for, any position they believe in. The pro-life side has been very clear and unwavering about their goal for decades. No amount of arguing and beseeching from the pro-choice side about what they “should” believe has made the slightest difference (maybe a few individuals have been won over but not enough to matter).

It’s not about what somebody “should” believe, it is about what they “do” believe. And what that motivates them to do.

Republicans have been steadfast, tenacious, aggressive, even ruthless, in pursuing their goal. Democrats have been relying on institutional norms and precedent and the imagined advantage of public opinion polling. In short, Democrats have not fought fire with fire. And as a result they’ve been outflanked and out maneuvered.

The left can continue to whine about how unfair and unprincipled and privacy-invasive and authoritarian the Republicans are. Or they can - finally - get hard-knuckled about politics and put up a real fight. Their choice.


But here lies the real issue. The GOP is working hard and always has to take away rights. Now they are there, and that Draft document from Alito shows that they are willing to take away far more rights from the people of this country. The Democrats will mobilize, some ignorant business leaders and women will probably realize that they have been following a lie, but is it moral for anyone to let the GOP abuse women and invade their privacy while this plays out in court?

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/l ... -rcna24639

A women's privacy was violated by people ignorant of the law, because they wanted to punish her.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:16 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?


Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


Nope, its called child endangerment/abandonment. You would face prison time if you do that. CA which has one of the most liberal abortion laws has laws against this https://www.findlaw.com/state/californi ... -laws.html


oh! so adoption is a thing but you can't just expect people to operate within their own capacity to make it happen. i.e there needs to be a legalframe work for it to happen in a safe considered and useful way.

Legal!

Cheap!

Rare!

Image
Last edited by flipdewaf on Wed May 04, 2022 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:17 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
N867DA wrote:

Suppose a fetus is a person (I personally don't think this is true, but let's suppose). What gives that person the right to occupy space inside another person against their own will? Is there some constitutional right to occupy space inside another person prior to birth? Which amendment is that?


Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?


Say what?? Mind, boggled.



Don't interrupt him. He's rolling.

I am still trying to figure out how we got from is a fetus alive, to is a fetus a person. to kicking 1 or 2 year olds out of a house for such transgressions as peeing in a diaper.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:27 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
And just because something may be a life why should you be forced to give up your resources for it?

Who here is in favor of enforced blood donation?

Fred


Tissue (blood) and organ donation are not even in the same ball park as a fetus.


I'm not suggesting they are, I'm suggesting that even if a foetus is a life then the equivalent is the person who needs a blood transfusion or kidney. I cannot be forced to give my kidney to a person no matter how deserving they might be just as a woman cannot be forced to give her life giving nutrients to a foetus.

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.


The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.
Why does it matter if its a life or not, saying as such is just an emotionally driven obfuscation tactic. Why should anyone be forced to give up their personal resources without consent. It is equivalent to enforced kidney donation.

Fred


Except that your need for a kidney or blood transfusion is not connected back to the action of the forced donor. The person getting the abortion (minus the .5% for rape an incest) is in that position due to their actions. Again, you have to deal with the consequences of your actions, if you get pregnant from sex, its your responsibility (male and female) to care for the life you created. Its a pretty big responsibility humans have been given to be able to make life. So when does life begin, if that could be solved, a lot of this debate ends. I don't have the answer.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:28 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know that this is going to get flamed, but if you believe the fetus is a life, what part of that is religion? Granted a lot of people look at this through a lens of religion, but not all.


There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.


The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.


A fetus is life? Is grass life? is a cow life? Is a chicken egg life?

Can the fetus fend for itself outside the womb, Ie breathe, eat, drink? With no need for action of the mother? Will it continue to live? Will it threaten the life of the mother? Wil lit be miscarried? Will the people that believe in that life give any and all medical ,social , and economic assistance to the mother that is needed?

Far too many people worry about the life of a fetus without ANY care whatsoever about the mother. If the people that believe ALL life is precious were actually serious, we would have universal health care, and full medical and financial support for mothers attempting to bring them into this world.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:29 pm

N867DA wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.


The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.


I am a person. Suppose you invite me for tea at your house. I enjoy the tea, and you ask me to leave your property. I don't leave. Do you have any legal recourse? Am I trespassing?

Suppose a fetus is a person (I personally don't think this is true, but let's suppose). What gives that person the right to occupy space inside another person against their own will? Is there some constitutional right to occupy space inside another person prior to birth? Which amendment is that?


The fact that your actions, sex, caused the fetus to be, they created the fetus, I did not create you.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:32 pm

casinterest wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Businesses across the country are now going to have to reevaluate how to provide for their employees in states that support the criminalization of women's choices on their own bodies.

Clashes such as Disney and Desantis will become the norm, rather than the exception going forward.


It’s good businesses will take the lead on the fight for reproductive rights as the Democrats aren’t.

They have the White House and both houses of Congress now, they could pass a federal right to abortion law, they don’t as they’re too weak to stand up to Manchin.

Obama could have told RBG to step down in 2016 but no she wanted to hold out to let Hillary appoint her replacement, well look how that turned out.

This should galvanise the Democrats at the mid terms, but if there’s any team that could turn an easy win into a loss it’s the Democrats.



It isn't about standing up to Manchin. It is about horse trading. Manchin represents a state that went 68%+ for Trump in 2020. Manchin could caucus with the Democrats and lose his next election completely.

People made mistakes in believing that Americans actually care about corruption, racism, and fraud. Trump won by wooing the folks that continually make choices that ruin their own lives. He told them to blame others, and they listened. Clinton would have won if her team had recognized how much insipid racism and misogyny still existed within the rural areas of the country. Mitch McConnell proved to be a corrupt anti American traitor along with Trump. They were able to push three very white nationalistic judges onto the Supreme Court. When coupled with Thomas and Alito, it can be seen throug Alito's own writings that their is a longing for ancient corrupt beliefs that demonize women.

The Democrats can finally run on that, and maybe highlight to big business and women that the GOP is a corrupt abusive parry going forward. I think eventually the democrats will split into multiple parties, but I think for now this will Galvanize the party going forward into fighting for the human rights that are currently most at stake.


So you are saying that "folks continually make choices that ruin their own lives.", wouldn't unprotected sex that leads to an unwanted pregnancy be in that category?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:33 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Tissue (blood) and organ donation are not even in the same ball park as a fetus.


I'm not suggesting they are, I'm suggesting that even if a foetus is a life then the equivalent is the person who needs a blood transfusion or kidney. I cannot be forced to give my kidney to a person no matter how deserving they might be just as a woman cannot be forced to give her life giving nutrients to a foetus.

bpatus297 wrote:

The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.
Why does it matter if its a life or not, saying as such is just an emotionally driven obfuscation tactic. Why should anyone be forced to give up their personal resources without consent. It is equivalent to enforced kidney donation.

Fred


Except that your need for a kidney or blood transfusion is not connected back to the action of the forced donor. The person getting the abortion (minus the .5% for rape an incest) is in that position due to their actions. Again, you have to deal with the consequences of your actions, if you get pregnant from sex, its your responsibility (male and female) to care for the life you created. Its a pretty big responsibility humans have been given to be able to make life. So when does life begin, if that could be solved, a lot of this debate ends. I don't have the answer.


So. why does that give the right to have my bodily functions and produce harvested?

Are you saying that if I crash my car and put someone in a wheel chair I should have to use my resources (time) to care for that person? or give them my blood in a blood transfusion if they are bleeding out.

Hilarous!

Fred
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:33 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
N867DA wrote:

Suppose a fetus is a person (I personally don't think this is true, but let's suppose). What gives that person the right to occupy space inside another person against their own will? Is there some constitutional right to occupy space inside another person prior to birth? Which amendment is that?


Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?


Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


"your body your choice", did you say that with Covid vaccines? FYI, I am pro vaccine.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.


The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.


That’s just their view. Since courts have to consider issues well beyond just ‘views’ it’s tantamount to nothing.


Its one view, that a lot of scientists agree with. Remember, follow the science? Granted, I can find scientist that don't agree as well.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:36 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?


Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


"your body your choice", did you say that with Covid vaccines? FYI, I am pro vaccine.



So you are saying that i can make other people pregnant by being pregnant? Is Covid a life? Will you ban the vaccines? That is a truly dizzying intellect there.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:37 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


Nope, its called child endangerment/abandonment. You would face prison time if you do that. CA which has one of the most liberal abortion laws has laws against this https://www.findlaw.com/state/californi ... -laws.html


oh! so adoption is a thing but you can't just expect people to operate within their own capacity to make it happen. i.e there needs to be a legalframe work for it to happen in a safe considered and useful way.

Legal!

Cheap!

Rare!

Image


I don't think I have heard anyone here claiming the adoption process in the US doesn't need an overhaul.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:37 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?


Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


"your body your choice", did you say that with Covid vaccines? FYI, I am pro vaccine.


Absolutely, everyone has the right to choose of they have the vaccine I know of some people who have chosen not to have the vaccine and that is entirely up to them. I disagree with their choice and because of their choice it has made a difference in how I have interacted with them for the last year or so (although now getting back to "normal" but I wholeheartedly disagree with enforcing the vaccine on anyone. No-one should have anything inside them they don't want. be that a fetus, a vaccine or a catholic priest.

Fred
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:38 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.


That’s just their view. Since courts have to consider issues well beyond just ‘views’ it’s tantamount to nothing.


Its one view, that a lot of scientists agree with. Remember, follow the science? Granted, I can find scientist that don't agree as well.



That is a loaded question. A lot of sciences would agree that an Ameoba is life, but what is it's value morally?
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:40 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There’s nothing wrong with that - belief, like religion, is an inalienable right. But belief, whether religious or not, is simply how you feel about something and should not extend to control over other people’s private conduct.

Obviously murder, theft etc. are regulated on another level because it can be shown through various undeniable metrics they have deleterious societal impact.


The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.


A fetus is life? Is grass life? is a cow life? Is a chicken egg life?

We are talking about human beings, not cows and chickens, try to keep up.

Can the fetus fend for itself outside the womb, Ie breathe, eat, drink? With no need for action of the mother? Will it continue to live? Will it threaten the life of the mother? Wil lit be miscarried? Will the people that believe in that life give any and all medical ,social , and economic assistance to the mother that is needed?

Can a one year old survive for itself with no action from the mother (breastfeeding) or father? It can't, so I guess by your logic we could just throw children away when they are not wanted anymore.

Far too many people worry about the life of a fetus without ANY care whatsoever about the mother. If the people that believe ALL life is precious were actually serious, we would have universal health care, and full medical and financial support for mothers attempting to bring them into this world.


We are not talking about cases where the mothers health is in question.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:43 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.


A fetus is life? Is grass life? is a cow life? Is a chicken egg life?

We are talking about human beings, not cows and chickens, try to keep up.

Can the fetus fend for itself outside the womb, Ie breathe, eat, drink? With no need for action of the mother? Will it continue to live? Will it threaten the life of the mother? Wil lit be miscarried? Will the people that believe in that life give any and all medical ,social , and economic assistance to the mother that is needed?

Can a one year old survive for itself with no action from the mother (breastfeeding) or father? It can't, so I guess by your logic we could just throw children away when they are not wanted anymore.

Far too many people worry about the life of a fetus without ANY care whatsoever about the mother. If the people that believe ALL life is precious were actually serious, we would have universal health care, and full medical and financial support for mothers attempting to bring them into this world.


We are not talking about cases where the mothers health is in question.


OBFUSCATION! her body her choice!

What about if I am at no risk from being forced to give blood? Even to a man I've hit in my car!

Fred
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:44 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

I'm not suggesting they are, I'm suggesting that even if a foetus is a life then the equivalent is the person who needs a blood transfusion or kidney. I cannot be forced to give my kidney to a person no matter how deserving they might be just as a woman cannot be forced to give her life giving nutrients to a foetus.

Why does it matter if its a life or not, saying as such is just an emotionally driven obfuscation tactic. Why should anyone be forced to give up their personal resources without consent. It is equivalent to enforced kidney donation.

Fred


Except that your need for a kidney or blood transfusion is not connected back to the action of the forced donor. The person getting the abortion (minus the .5% for rape an incest) is in that position due to their actions. Again, you have to deal with the consequences of your actions, if you get pregnant from sex, its your responsibility (male and female) to care for the life you created. Its a pretty big responsibility humans have been given to be able to make life. So when does life begin, if that could be solved, a lot of this debate ends. I don't have the answer.


So. why does that give the right to have my bodily functions and produce harvested?

Are you saying that if I crash my car and put someone in a wheel chair I should have to use my resources (time) to care for that person? or give them my blood in a blood transfusion if they are bleeding out.

Hilarous!

Fred


For the accident, yes you will be responsible if you caused the accident. You will not be made to give your blood, but your resources. Your insurance (your protection of your resources) will pay for their are and if they sued you, you would lose some of your resources.

Again, creating a life can't really be compared to the other things you are trying to make it out to be.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:44 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.


A fetus is life? Is grass life? is a cow life? Is a chicken egg life?

We are talking about human beings, not cows and chickens, try to keep up.

Can the fetus fend for itself outside the womb, Ie breathe, eat, drink? With no need for action of the mother? Will it continue to live? Will it threaten the life of the mother? Wil lit be miscarried? Will the people that believe in that life give any and all medical ,social , and economic assistance to the mother that is needed?

Can a one year old survive for itself with no action from the mother (breastfeeding) or father? It can't, so I guess by your logic we could just throw children away when they are not wanted anymore.

Far too many people worry about the life of a fetus without ANY care whatsoever about the mother. If the people that believe ALL life is precious were actually serious, we would have universal health care, and full medical and financial support for mothers attempting to bring them into this world.


We are not talking about cases where the mothers health is in question.



Yes we are. The fetus is a life , is your sole concern in the opening. The mother's life has everything to do with that fetus until it is born.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:45 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Tissue (blood) and organ donation are not even in the same ball park as a fetus.


I'm not suggesting they are, I'm suggesting that even if a foetus is a life then the equivalent is the person who needs a blood transfusion or kidney. I cannot be forced to give my kidney to a person no matter how deserving they might be just as a woman cannot be forced to give her life giving nutrients to a foetus.

bpatus297 wrote:

The point is that some people view the fetus as a life and abortion is tantamount to murder. I'm not saying that's right, science doesn't have a consensus of when life begins.
Why does it matter if its a life or not, saying as such is just an emotionally driven obfuscation tactic. Why should anyone be forced to give up their personal resources without consent. It is equivalent to enforced kidney donation.

Fred


Except that your need for a kidney or blood transfusion is not connected back to the action of the forced donor. The person getting the abortion (minus the .5% for rape an incest) is in that position due to their actions. Again, you have to deal with the consequences of your actions, if you get pregnant from sex, its your responsibility (male and female) to care for the life you created. Its a pretty big responsibility humans have been given to be able to make life. So when does life begin, if that could be solved, a lot of this debate ends. I don't have the answer.


Ah, this again. So if the guy has ghosted, or says he won’t support the kid, or accuses her of getting knocked up by someone else falsely, then what? It’s all on the woman? Anyone sane with women in their life they care about finds that notion absolutely nuts.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


"your body your choice", did you say that with Covid vaccines? FYI, I am pro vaccine.



So you are saying that i can make other people pregnant by being pregnant? Is Covid a life? Will you ban the vaccines? That is a truly dizzying intellect there.


Body autonomy is body autonomy, you are putting conditions on it. That's no different from conditions on abortion.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:46 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Except that your need for a kidney or blood transfusion is not connected back to the action of the forced donor. The person getting the abortion (minus the .5% for rape an incest) is in that position due to their actions. Again, you have to deal with the consequences of your actions, if you get pregnant from sex, its your responsibility (male and female) to care for the life you created. Its a pretty big responsibility humans have been given to be able to make life. So when does life begin, if that could be solved, a lot of this debate ends. I don't have the answer.


So. why does that give the right to have my bodily functions and produce harvested?

Are you saying that if I crash my car and put someone in a wheel chair I should have to use my resources (time) to care for that person? or give them my blood in a blood transfusion if they are bleeding out.

Hilarous!

Fred


For the accident, yes you will be responsible if you caused the accident. You will not be made to give your blood, but your resources. Your insurance (your protection of your resources) will pay for their are and if they sued you, you would lose some of your resources.

Again, creating a life can't really be compared to the other things you are trying to make it out to be.


Money is a substitute for blood? Cool.

Fred
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15323
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:47 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

"your body your choice", did you say that with Covid vaccines? FYI, I am pro vaccine.



So you are saying that i can make other people pregnant by being pregnant? Is Covid a life? Will you ban the vaccines? That is a truly dizzying intellect there.


Body autonomy is body autonomy, you are putting conditions on it. That's no different from conditions on abortion.


No. Vaccines are to prevent the spread of diseases and save others. Pregnancies are too give live. Or do you think pregnancies are just there to kill people and make them sick?
 
bpatus297
Posts: 777
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:48 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


"your body your choice", did you say that with Covid vaccines? FYI, I am pro vaccine.


Absolutely, everyone has the right to choose of they have the vaccine I know of some people who have chosen not to have the vaccine and that is entirely up to them. I disagree with their choice and because of their choice it has made a difference in how I have interacted with them for the last year or so (although now getting back to "normal" but I wholeheartedly disagree with enforcing the vaccine on anyone. No-one should have anything inside them they don't want. be that a fetus, a vaccine or a catholic priest.

Fred


At least you are honest in saying that. A vast majority of people in this thread don't agree with that view. Again, the difference is if the fetus is a life you created vs a vaccine or priest.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17916
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:49 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

"your body your choice", did you say that with Covid vaccines? FYI, I am pro vaccine.



So you are saying that i can make other people pregnant by being pregnant? Is Covid a life? Will you ban the vaccines? That is a truly dizzying intellect there.


Body autonomy is body autonomy, you are putting conditions on it. That's no different from conditions on abortion.


The Roe decision already established precedent for making it conditional. That’s why all the current hullaballoo is completely asinine.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 904
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:50 pm

bpatus297 wrote:

So you are saying that "folks continually make choices that ruin their own lives.", wouldn't unprotected sex that leads to an unwanted pregnancy be in that category?


Enough with the Puritanism. For 50 years America and the western world has allowed women to choose to terminate a pregnancy. Their choice to have sex, their choice whether or not to continue with the pregnancy. If they accidentally fall pregnant they can terminate the pregnancy so their life isn’t ruined.

All this is about is religious control of women’s bodies.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

I'm not suggesting they are, I'm suggesting that even if a foetus is a life then the equivalent is the person who needs a blood transfusion or kidney. I cannot be forced to give my kidney to a person no matter how deserving they might be just as a woman cannot be forced to give her life giving nutrients to a foetus.

Why does it matter if its a life or not, saying as such is just an emotionally driven obfuscation tactic. Why should anyone be forced to give up their personal resources without consent. It is equivalent to enforced kidney donation.

Fred


Except that your need for a kidney or blood transfusion is not connected back to the action of the forced donor. The person getting the abortion (minus the .5% for rape an incest) is in that position due to their actions. Again, you have to deal with the consequences of your actions, if you get pregnant from sex, its your responsibility (male and female) to care for the life you created. Its a pretty big responsibility humans have been given to be able to make life. So when does life begin, if that could be solved, a lot of this debate ends. I don't have the answer.


Ah, this again. So if the guy has ghosted, or says he won’t support the kid, or accuses her of getting knocked up by someone else falsely, then what? It’s all on the woman? Anyone sane with women in their life they care about finds that notion absolutely nuts.


That's not gonna happen. We just saw this high profile case: https://www.courthousenews.com/hunter-b ... sas-woman/

Biden will pay an undisclosed monthly amount of child support and health insurance premiums to his 19-month-old child’s mother, Lunden Alexis Roberts, beginning April 1, according to court documents filed Thursday. Independence County Circuit Court Judge Holly Meyer also approved an amount for Roberts’ attorneys’ fees and costs that Biden must pay by May 1.


They will make the man pay. It happens more often than what you believe.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17916
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Wed May 04, 2022 2:51 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

"your body your choice", did you say that with Covid vaccines? FYI, I am pro vaccine.


Absolutely, everyone has the right to choose of they have the vaccine I know of some people who have chosen not to have the vaccine and that is entirely up to them. I disagree with their choice and because of their choice it has made a difference in how I have interacted with them for the last year or so (although now getting back to "normal" but I wholeheartedly disagree with enforcing the vaccine on anyone. No-one should have anything inside them they don't want. be that a fetus, a vaccine or a catholic priest.

Fred


At least you are honest in saying that. A vast majority of people in this thread don't agree with that view. Again, the difference is if the fetus is a life you created vs a vaccine or priest.


Really? I for one supported employer/federal mandates, but not blanket public vaccine mandates. Mask mandates were sufficient to prevent spread if compliance was consistent.

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