Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 22
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17985
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 12:24 am

FlapOperator wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

The intrinsic right to privacy and liberty found in the 9th and 14th are good enough for judges 50 years ago. Now these activist judges want to take away people's rights to privacy about their personal choices?


But but but the Constitution's text doesn't actually HAVE the words 'right to privacy' in it. Dontcha know??? Commence mouth foam.


Yet they actually have a part that says "the Right of the People to keep and bear arms" and a part that says "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

So essentially this ruling suggests that abortions rights such as they are, should be reflected at the federal level appropriate, namely the states.


Perhaps relevant except the Roe decision applied the 9th and 14th amendments, which stand across the land, and also ruled abortion was not unlimited and could be reasonably regulated by individual states.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu May 05, 2022 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Newark727
Posts: 2997
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 12:26 am

FlapOperator wrote:
So essentially this ruling suggests that abortions rights such as they are, should be reflected at the federal level appropriate, namely the states.


Unless the clerk skyservice_330 quoted is right:

skyservice_330 wrote:
- It talks about fetuses being people as a matter of ancient law (teeing up idea that fetuses are constitutionally PROTECTED – no abortion anywhere as matter of conlaw.)
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15496
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 12:57 am

Newark727 wrote:
FlapOperator wrote:
So essentially this ruling suggests that abortions rights such as they are, should be reflected at the federal level appropriate, namely the states.


Unless the clerk skyservice_330 quoted is right:

skyservice_330 wrote:
- It talks about fetuses being people as a matter of ancient law (teeing up idea that fetuses are constitutionally PROTECTED – no abortion anywhere as matter of conlaw.)


So if a mother doesn't want the child, can the fetus be a ward of the state and the state pays all expenses for said child, including lodging within the mom?
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 925
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 1:36 am

scbriml wrote:

They’re entitled to that belief, but they’re not entitled to force their view on others.


Well, in the US, their Constitution argues that outside of military bases and First Nations reservations, the vast majority of laws for individuals reside at the state level.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 925
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 1:37 am

casinterest wrote:

So if a mother doesn't want the child, can the fetus be a ward of the state and the state pays all expenses for said child, including lodging within the mom?


Traditionally, such payments are "child support" and are levied by the courts on the appropriate non-custodial parents.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 925
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 1:39 am

ltbewr wrote:
Republicans of course are making a big deal about who, how and why this draft opinion was leaked, not so much as to what it says. https://www.npr.org/2022/05/03/10963893 ... its-impact

I am quite sure that they are angry at Politico that broke the story and posted - with clear 1st Amendment protections - the draft opinion, bashing them as 'un-american' and other garbage. Possibly Republican's anger is that they wanted the decision closer to the fall elections so not as easily used in opposition by Democrats.

We don't know who publicly disclosed this or their motivations. That includes an intentional 'trial balloon' to gauge reaction to a final decision, to try to throw the vote to keep or narrow Roe v. Wade, to protect legal access to abortion services or help Democrats win this fall's elections. Likely the leaker is someone close to the SCOTUS and its deep inner workings. It is almost a given like when I worked as a litigation paralegal for law firms and a governmental agency for 43 years, had to sign blanket confidentiality affidavits or NDA's as to all work at an employer or as to specific cases. If I disclosed protected information I could face potential criminal prosecution, civil liability, damage to my life. Some of course will see the leaker as a martyr, a hero, sometimes leakers, whistleblowers do great benefit to society. The disclosure here fall into a difficult place


The disclosure here is wrong, corrosive and intended to create an extra-legal result, regardless on whom the leaker is determined to be.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1617
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:19 am

The leak was wrong and needs to be investigated, and the person that did it needs to be held to account, whatever that looks like.

And while that occurs, sitting members of Congress should avoid maligning the integrity of 12 people on the basis of the political bent of someone else. Ladies and gentlemen, Ted Cruz…

“…very likely a law clerk for one of the three liberal justices, that means there are 12 likely suspects," he said.”

It will be interesting to see what the statesman from Texas has to say, should the internet warriors identify the 12 clerks in question and their personal and physical safety is threatened.

excerpt from: https://www.foxnews.com/media/cruz-supr ... -wing-twit
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15496
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:31 am

FlapOperator wrote:
casinterest wrote:

So if a mother doesn't want the child, can the fetus be a ward of the state and the state pays all expenses for said child, including lodging within the mom?


Traditionally, such payments are "child support" and are levied by the courts on the appropriate non-custodial parents.


So the Government then since they are the ones forcing the baby to be born, against the parent's wishes. Again this is the Government regulating what is occurring in a woman if they ban abortions. They should pay.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15496
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:32 am

skyservice_330 wrote:
The leak was wrong and needs to be investigated, and the person that did it needs to be held to account, whatever that looks like.

And while that occurs, sitting members of Congress should avoid maligning the integrity of 12 people on the basis of the political bent of someone else. Ladies and gentlemen, Ted Cruz…

“…very likely a law clerk for one of the three liberal justices, that means there are 12 likely suspects," he said.”

It will be interesting to see what the statesman from Texas has to say, should the internet warriors identify the 12 clerks in question and their personal and physical safety is threatened.

excerpt from: https://www.foxnews.com/media/cruz-supr ... -wing-twit



Ted "Traitor" Cruz has nothing to talk about in terms of suspects until he resigns over Jan 6.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 3:10 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Ben Shapiro and Airworth99 *literally* told us minutes ago that conservatives have moved left on same sex marriage.

They were both, of course, lying.


Just like how Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Coney Barrett lied when they said in confirmation hearing they considered Roe v Wade to be “settled law”.

This is why Democrats lose all the time. Michelle Obama said “when they go low we go high” she thought it was complimenting the Dems, in reality Republicans are willing to lie, cheat, steal, gerrymander, intimidate, discriminate, deny, delay, obstruct, fearmonger and other unethical acts to win. And they get what they want.

Democrats need to go on the offensive. Get real young leaders with passion and vigour, not 79 year old Biden, 82 year old Pelosi or 72 year old Schumer. It sickens me to think one of California’s guaranteed Senate seats, which could install a future leader with youth and passion, has been captured by Dianne Feinstein who has filed paperwork to run in 2024 at age 91 for a term to last until she’s 97.

This is why the Democrats lose.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 3:52 am

What’s next in the investigation of the Supreme Court leak?

https://apnews.com/article/us-supreme-c ... 7a4fe69dc1

All law clerks sign a code of conduct promising confidentiality. “The law clerk should take particular care that Court documents not available to the public are not taken from the Court building,” a copy of the code from 1989 says. An investigation is likely also to focus on how and why the information was leaked, whether it was intentionally provided to Politico by a court employee or inadvertently made available to someone who then sent a copy of the draft to the news organization, or whether a different circumstance occurred.

The court’s Marshal, Col. Gail A. Curley, came to the court from the U.S. Army and has been on the job for less than a year. As marshal, she wears several different hats in overseeing the administrative side of the court. She is the court’s chief security officer, overseeing a staff of approximately 260 employees including the police force that provides security for the justices and the Supreme Court building. And she is also the building’s facilities administrator.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 5:16 am

In April of 1990, I traveled from Texas to Washington DC to attend the Rally For Life on the Washington Monument Grounds of the National Mall. VP Dan Quayle addressed the crowd of 700,000 that day, who came from all over the US to show their support for Life. That solidarity has paid off now with the SCOTUS decision to overturn Roe v Wade.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4652846/ ... life-rally

https://www.c-span.org/video/?12083-1/rally-life-1990
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14175
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 5:17 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Suppose you got kids, would you kick them out of your house if they are minors? what right gives that son or daughter of yours to occupy your house?

and would you be OK if your parents had kicked you out of their house when you were 1 years old or 2? Just because they thought you did not have any right to occupy their house?


Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


Nope, its called child endangerment/abandonment. You would face prison time if you do that. CA which has one of the most liberal abortion laws has laws against this https://www.findlaw.com/state/californi ... -laws.html

BTW, you just proved with adoption that abortion is not the only choice.


Why should a women have to go through 9 months of hell just to adopt the child? Pregnancy is really hard on females, my wife hated it. If by some miracle she became pregnant again she would have an abortion.

Men should remove themselves from the abortion debate, it’s not our issue to fight, it does not effect men in the slightest.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 14175
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 5:27 am

bpatus297 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
And no other species living on this planet preforms intentional abortions. You can suspect about me all you want, but would 100% be incorrect. I am not going into my personal life details on the internet, so go ahead and flame on, I don't care. As far as "OUR OWN circle of life.". the fetus you create become part of that circle whether you like it or not.

Do know I am not flaming you. Challenging, questioning but not flaming.

Actually there are several species that abort their fetuses in certain situations. And then there is the whole eating the babies/driving them off to starve or be killed thing that a lot of them do... That is pretty intentional.

And you are wrong as to "the fetus you create become part of that circle whether you like it or not.". For one, abortion is an option, ALWAYS (whether or not you approve or it is legal), and the other, many fetus' miscarry. This is all part of the circle of life.

Tugg


I know animals have abortions (miscarriage), but they don't make a choice to have an abortion like humans do. As far as animals eating their young, really? That's a complete fallacy.


You really want to go there, male lions are a prime example they kill and eat cubs fairly often. This is well documented fact, you can find many videos on YouTube about it. Male chimpanzees also kill baby chimps, again look it up on YouTube.
 
Clutch101
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:49 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 5:27 am

FlapOperator wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Republicans of course are making a big deal about who, how and why this draft opinion was leaked, not so much as to what it says. https://www.npr.org/2022/05/03/10963893 ... its-impact

I am quite sure that they are angry at Politico that broke the story and posted - with clear 1st Amendment protections - the draft opinion, bashing them as 'un-american' and other garbage. Possibly Republican's anger is that they wanted the decision closer to the fall elections so not as easily used in opposition by Democrats.

We don't know who publicly disclosed this or their motivations. That includes an intentional 'trial balloon' to gauge reaction to a final decision, to try to throw the vote to keep or narrow Roe v. Wade, to protect legal access to abortion services or help Democrats win this fall's elections. Likely the leaker is someone close to the SCOTUS and its deep inner workings. It is almost a given like when I worked as a litigation paralegal for law firms and a governmental agency for 43 years, had to sign blanket confidentiality affidavits or NDA's as to all work at an employer or as to specific cases. If I disclosed protected information I could face potential criminal prosecution, civil liability, damage to my life. Some of course will see the leaker as a martyr, a hero, sometimes leakers, whistleblowers do great benefit to society. The disclosure here fall into a difficult place


The disclosure here is wrong, corrosive and intended to create an extra-legal result, regardless on whom the leaker is determined to be.


Eh, oh well.
 
Clutch101
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:49 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 5:34 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
In April of 1990, I traveled from Texas to Washington DC to attend the Rally For Life on the Washington Monument Grounds of the National Mall. VP Dan Quayle addressed the crowd of 700,000 that day, who came from all over the US to show their support for Life. That solidarity has paid off now with the SCOTUS decision to overturn Roe v Wade.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4652846/ ... life-rally

https://www.c-span.org/video/?12083-1/rally-life-1990


Texas, makes complete and total sense now. Have to ask, how many children are you currently fostering right now? How many total in your lifetime? How many children have you adopted? Bigger question, and one I feel I have to ask. How many non caucasian children have you adopted and/or fostered? And just for kicks, what did you name your bus, I'm going with "Prayer Warriors" Did you have a bumpersticker that said "Jeebus is my co-pilot"?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17985
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 5:42 am

Kiwirob wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

Its called adoption, yes it occurs. Being ok with something is irrelevant and a continuation of emotional obfuscation that plagues this debate. Your body your choice.

Fred


Nope, its called child endangerment/abandonment. You would face prison time if you do that. CA which has one of the most liberal abortion laws has laws against this https://www.findlaw.com/state/californi ... -laws.html

BTW, you just proved with adoption that abortion is not the only choice.


Why should a women have to go through 9 months of hell just to adopt the child? Pregnancy is really hard on females, my wife hated it. If by some miracle she became pregnant again she would have an abortion.

Men should remove themselves from the abortion debate, it’s not our issue to fight, it does not effect men in the slightest.


Hear, hear. As a man I don’t feel this is any of my business, frankly. But as a man with many female loved ones, I will continue to advocate on their behalf.
 
aristoenigma
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 6:12 am

If I had a child that was clerking on any side of the spectrum in the SCOTUS I would be pissed that junior senator Cruz would be setting out clerk conspiracies without proof. Due to the many nut jobs that circulate and act to endanger the well being of anyone they perceive as guilty I fear the many clerks are now at risk . The flames are fanned worse by the leader of the senate as well.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21094
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 6:23 am

FlapOperator wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
I’ve been trying to figure out why folks try to press their religious beliefs on others so much. Is it possible they’re experiencing some dissonance and figure if they can impress their silly children’s stories on others, it will somehow make it more true?


One can be a complete atheist and still make a coherent utilitarian-based argument against abortion, utilitarianism not being a particularly religion based belief.


I don’t think anyone has claimed that all anti-abortionists are all religious nuts. But it certainly seems the case that a significant proportion of them are.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 7:29 am

One area that I’ve always found curious about the abortion debate here in the US is how much the pro-choice lobby loves to weave this narrative of theocratic oppression and level accusations of US abortion law being somehow akin to the Taliban…or Quran adherents as mentioned earlier in the thread. The reality is that under Roe and to this day, the US pole vaulted to having more or less the most liberal abortion policies in the world. Looking to the rest of the developed world, and Europe in particular, abortion at will is prohibited in many countries and late term abortions outside of medical emergencies are illegal. Most impose limits at 12 weeks of pregnancy or even earlier. It’s therefore unsurprising to me that Roe has remained so “unsettled,” we in the US weren’t allowed to hash out this debate and come to more codified, stable legislative protections compared to countries in Europe who didn’t have to grapple with judicial review of the sort found in the US. It’s pretty evident that the vast majority of public opinion in the US tracks with the normie abortion policies found in most other countries…safe, legal and rare, limitations after a certain stage of viability, no late term abortion outside of medical necessity…but Roe clearly hasn’t been a sound, stable vehicle to that end. Roe has always been the elephant in the room for pro-choice advocates, roundly critiqued by eminent legal scholars from both sides of the spectrum. So I’m not particularly sorry to see shoddy judicial review like Roe brushed aside…but at the same time, as a limited government type who generally doesn’t think the state should intercede in such decisions, I can’t say I’m necessarily looking forward to its aftermath if Roe ends up being struck down.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2466
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 7:36 am

flyguy89 wrote:
One area that I’ve always found curious about the abortion debate here in the US is how much the pro-choice lobby loves to weave this narrative of theocratic oppression and level accusations of US abortion law being somehow akin to the Taliban


It may be helpful for you to do some research on how the evangelical movement was somehow inadvertently harnessed to the anti-choice cause, and then the issue used increasing over the decades by the GoP to harness support and galvanise voter turnout..

Yes, the driver is fundamentally poltical, but anti-choice inhabits the evangelical movement more fervently than it ever did the Catholic church.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17985
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 7:50 am

flyguy89 wrote:
One area that I’ve always found curious about the abortion debate here in the US is how much the pro-choice lobby loves to weave this narrative of theocratic oppression and level accusations of US abortion law being somehow akin to the Taliban…or Quran adherents as mentioned earlier in the thread. The reality is that under Roe and to this day, the US pole vaulted to having more or less the most liberal abortion policies in the world. Looking to the rest of the developed world, and Europe in particular, abortion at will is prohibited in many countries and late term abortions outside of medical emergencies are illegal. Most impose limits at 12 weeks of pregnancy or even earlier. It’s therefore unsurprising to me that Roe has remained so “unsettled,” we in the US weren’t allowed to hash out this debate and come to more codified, stable legislative protections compared to countries in Europe who didn’t have to grapple with judicial review of the sort found in the US. It’s pretty evident that the vast majority of public opinion in the US tracks with the normie abortion policies found in most other countries…safe, legal and rare, limitations after a certain stage of viability, no late term abortion outside of medical necessity…but Roe clearly hasn’t been a sound, stable vehicle to that end. Roe has always been the elephant in the room for pro-choice advocates, roundly critiqued by eminent legal scholars from both sides of the spectrum. So I’m not particularly sorry to see shoddy judicial review like Roe brushed aside…but at the same time, as a limited government type who generally doesn’t think the state should intercede in such decisions, I can’t say I’m necessarily looking forward to its aftermath if Roe ends up being struck down.


Not sure this is anywhere near an accurate summation. Because of the language in Roe establishing abortion is not an unlimited right, there are various situations according to which state a woman lives in.

For one, only seven states allow late-term abortions with zero threshold:

States that allow for late-term abortions with no state-imposed thresholds are Alaska, Colorado, District of Columbia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, and Vermont.

And there are multiple states with gestational limits:

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, as of August 1, 2020, 24 states prohibit some abortions at a specific gestational age.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state ... m-abortion

While you are correct there are several European countries that do not allow abortion at-will or have significant restrictions, like Poland and Germany, there are many others where abortion is more accessible than one would initially assume.

Switzerland is no questions asked until 12 weeks, but gives doctors wide latitude to approve abortions after that point:

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/switze ... n-abortion

Abortion was significantly liberalized in Ireland in 2018, after decades of severe restrictions, but holds to the 12 weeks you mentioned in most cases

https://theconversation.com/one-year-on ... ons-129491

Spain allows termination up to week 14 and under physical or mother's mental distress up to week 22

https://www.centromedicoaragon.com/en/a ... ur-rights/

Italy has a 1st trimester limit with allowances beyond for certain conditions, but those allowances are apparently hard to access depending on region of the country

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/201 ... tion-intl/

Belgium extended the decision time from 12 to 18 weeks two years ago

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/ ... parliament

France recently granted extension from 12 to 14 weeks. Sweden allows at-will up to 18 weeks, and the Netherlands up to 24

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/01/fra ... -key-moves

https://www.government.nl/topics/abortion

And other laws among other US-aligned nations:

Japan allows without restriction up to 22 weeks

https://telljp.com/lifeline/tell-chat/h ... y-options/

New Zealand allows up to 20 weeks

https://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/ ... n-abortion

Most Australian states allow termination up to 20-22 weeks, but a couple are more restrictive

https://www.childrenbychoice.org.au/res ... -practice/

In Canada abortion is essentially unrestricted at any gestational stage but access depends on provincial priorities:

https://globalnews.ca/news/8158399/cana ... le-access/
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu May 05, 2022 8:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 7:56 am

Clutch101 wrote:
Texas, makes complete and total sense now. Have to ask, how many children are you currently fostering right now? How many total in your lifetime? How many children have you adopted? Bigger question, and one I feel I have to ask. How many non caucasian children have you adopted and/or fostered? And just for kicks, what did you name your bus, I'm going with "Prayer Warriors" Did you have a bumpersticker that said "Jeebus is my co-pilot"?


Clutch101, your line of questioning seems mostly disingenuous. I care what I care about. I make no apologies for that.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 8:31 am

Aaron747 wrote:
While you are correct there are several European countries that do not allow abortion at-will or have significant restrictions, like Poland and Germany, there are many others where abortion is more accessible than one would initially assume.


A woman can be unaware she's pregnant at 6 weeks, the so called "fetal heartbeat" measure that some states want to enact. So it's ridiculous to limit abortions to that time frame. Ideally by the time it's obvious a woman is pregnant, then at least several months to make a decision. So 15-20 weeks at a minimum. Here's good data on the percentage of abortions carried out per week of pregnancy:

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/ ... pregnancy/

Only 1.2% of abortions are carried out beyond 20 weeks, and about 90% in the first trimester. 95% by the 14 weeks a lot of Euro nations have as a limit. So this idea that there's a substantial amount of terminations carriers out beyond the 20-24 week limit is false.

Reminders, that the "trigger laws" states have that will come into effect the day Roe vs Wade is overturned call for a total ban on abortions at any stage, no exemptions for rape or incest, and up to 99 year sentences for those involved in giving a woman a termination.

Although Texas just has to go one step further, their state GOP is debating a bill that would give the death penalty to a woman for having an abortion performed on her.

https://www.newsweek.com/death-penalty- ... as-1692240

For comparison, even Saudi Arabia doesn't apply the death penalty for women having an abortion.

Christian Taliban indeed. Oh wait, even the Taliban did not apply the death penalty to women having an abortion.........
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Thu May 05, 2022 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 8:32 am

Kent350787 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
One area that I’ve always found curious about the abortion debate here in the US is how much the pro-choice lobby loves to weave this narrative of theocratic oppression and level accusations of US abortion law being somehow akin to the Taliban


It may be helpful for you to do some research on how the evangelical movement was somehow inadvertently harnessed to the anti-choice cause, and then the issue used increasing over the decades by the GoP to harness support and galvanise voter turnout..

Yes, the driver is fundamentally poltical, but anti-choice inhabits the evangelical movement more fervently than it ever did the Catholic church.

I actually have, it's interesting history. That anti-choice fervently inhabits the evangelical crowd that the GOP has cow-towed to cannot be denied, but the level of evangelical mobilization and backlash didn't really exist pre-Roe, even as liberalization of abortion among the various states was increasing.

Aaron747 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
One area that I’ve always found curious about the abortion debate here in the US is how much the pro-choice lobby loves to weave this narrative of theocratic oppression and level accusations of US abortion law being somehow akin to the Taliban…or Quran adherents as mentioned earlier in the thread. The reality is that under Roe and to this day, the US pole vaulted to having more or less the most liberal abortion policies in the world. Looking to the rest of the developed world, and Europe in particular, abortion at will is prohibited in many countries and late term abortions outside of medical emergencies are illegal. Most impose limits at 12 weeks of pregnancy or even earlier. It’s therefore unsurprising to me that Roe has remained so “unsettled,” we in the US weren’t allowed to hash out this debate and come to more codified, stable legislative protections compared to countries in Europe who didn’t have to grapple with judicial review of the sort found in the US. It’s pretty evident that the vast majority of public opinion in the US tracks with the normie abortion policies found in most other countries…safe, legal and rare, limitations after a certain stage of viability, no late term abortion outside of medical necessity…but Roe clearly hasn’t been a sound, stable vehicle to that end. Roe has always been the elephant in the room for pro-choice advocates, roundly critiqued by eminent legal scholars from both sides of the spectrum. So I’m not particularly sorry to see shoddy judicial review like Roe brushed aside…but at the same time, as a limited government type who generally doesn’t think the state should intercede in such decisions, I can’t say I’m necessarily looking forward to its aftermath if Roe ends up being struck down.


Not sure this is anywhere near an accurate summation. Because of the language in Roe establishing abortion is not an unlimited right, there are various situations according to which state a woman lives in.

For one, only seven states allow late-term abortions with zero threshold:

States that allow for late-term abortions with no state-imposed thresholds are Alaska, Colorado, District of Columbia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, and Vermont.

And there are multiple states with gestational limits:

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, as of August 1, 2020, 24 states prohibit some abortions at a specific gestational age.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state ... m-abortion

While you are correct there are several European countries that do not allow abortion at-will or have significant restrictions, like Poland and Germany, there are many others where abortion is more accessible than one would initially assume.

Switzerland is no questions asked until 12 weeks, but gives doctors wide latitude to approve abortions after that point:

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/switze ... n-abortion

Abortion was significantly liberalized in Ireland in 2018, after decades of severe restrictions, but holds to the 12 weeks you mentioned in most cases

https://theconversation.com/one-year-on ... ons-129491

Spain allows termination up to week 14 and under physical or mother's mental distress up to week 22

https://www.centromedicoaragon.com/en/a ... ur-rights/

Italy has a 1st trimester limit with allowances beyond for certain conditions, but those allowances are apparently hard to access depending on region of the country

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/201 ... tion-intl/

Belgium extended the decision time from 12 to 18 weeks two years ago

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/ ... parliament

France recently granted extension from 12 to 14 weeks. Sweden allows at-will up to 18 weeks, and the Netherlands up to 24

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/01/fra ... -key-moves

https://www.government.nl/topics/abortion

And other laws among other US-aligned nations:

Japan allows without restriction up to 22 weeks

https://telljp.com/lifeline/tell-chat/h ... y-options/

New Zealand allows up to 20 weeks

https://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/ ... n-abortion

Most Australian states allow termination up to 20-22 weeks, but a couple are more restrictive

https://www.childrenbychoice.org.au/res ... -practice/

In Canada abortion is essentially unrestricted at any gestational stage but access depends on provincial priorities:

https://globalnews.ca/news/8158399/cana ... le-access/

I don't really see the inaccuracies...most EU countries maintain limitations on or around first trimester or 12 weeks. The rub also being that the US has no federal limits on abortion whatsoever. So for example, by law there's nowhere in France you can get an abortion at will after 14 weeks of pregnancy compared to the majority of jurisdictions in the US.
Last edited by flyguy89 on Thu May 05, 2022 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 8:48 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Reminders, that the "trigger laws" states have that will come into effect the day Roe vs Wade is overturned call for a total ban on abortions at any stage, no exemptions for rape or incest, and up to 99 year sentences for those involved in giving a woman a termination.

Interestingly enough, both Mississippi and Alabama permitted abortions to varying degrees for rape/incest/medical emergencies pre-Roe so a total no-exceptions ban would in fact be further backsliding. In any case, not all of the trigger laws are no-exception bans, a few do in fact have carve outs for rape/incest/medical.
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 9:03 am

flyguy89 wrote:
I actually have, it's interesting history. That anti-choice fervently inhabits the evangelical crowd that the GOP has cow-towed to cannot be denied, but the level of evangelical mobilization and backlash didn't really exist pre-Roe, even as liberalization of abortion among the various states was increasing.


Abortion wasn't the hotbed issue it was today, even when Roe v Wade was decided. It's a story of how the Republican party, which once counted northeastern social liberals and pro choice advocates amongst it's ranks, slowly developed into the socially conservative party post "Southern Strategy" and Nixon, then into the full blown far right conspiracist party it is today after Trump.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 10:38 am

Kiwirob wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Do know I am not flaming you. Challenging, questioning but not flaming.

Actually there are several species that abort their fetuses in certain situations. And then there is the whole eating the babies/driving them off to starve or be killed thing that a lot of them do... That is pretty intentional.

And you are wrong as to "the fetus you create become part of that circle whether you like it or not.". For one, abortion is an option, ALWAYS (whether or not you approve or it is legal), and the other, many fetus' miscarry. This is all part of the circle of life.

Tugg


I know animals have abortions (miscarriage), but they don't make a choice to have an abortion like humans do. As far as animals eating their young, really? That's a complete fallacy.


You really want to go there, male lions are a prime example they kill and eat cubs fairly often. This is well documented fact, you can find many videos on YouTube about it. Male chimpanzees also kill baby chimps, again look it up on YouTube.


You are correct, animals kill their babies. Animals do a lot of things that we, as civilized humans, do not nor should we want to. If a father were to kill their young, they would face the repercussions of that in society. Again, it's a fallacy, what does that have to do with humans choosing to have abortions?
 
bpatus297
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 10:40 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Nope, its called child endangerment/abandonment. You would face prison time if you do that. CA which has one of the most liberal abortion laws has laws against this https://www.findlaw.com/state/californi ... -laws.html

BTW, you just proved with adoption that abortion is not the only choice.


Why should a women have to go through 9 months of hell just to adopt the child? Pregnancy is really hard on females, my wife hated it. If by some miracle she became pregnant again she would have an abortion.

Men should remove themselves from the abortion debate, it’s not our issue to fight, it does not effect men in the slightest.


Hear, hear. As a man I don’t feel this is any of my business, frankly. But as a man with many female loved ones, I will continue to advocate on their behalf.


You just agreed that all men should stay out of the debate, unless you are pro-choice, because you are advocating on women's behalf. I guess all women are pro-choice then. Got it.
 
FGITD
Posts: 2120
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 11:46 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Clutch101 wrote:
Texas, makes complete and total sense now. Have to ask, how many children are you currently fostering right now? How many total in your lifetime? How many children have you adopted? Bigger question, and one I feel I have to ask. How many non caucasian children have you adopted and/or fostered? And just for kicks, what did you name your bus, I'm going with "Prayer Warriors" Did you have a bumpersticker that said "Jeebus is my co-pilot"?


Clutch101, your line of questioning seems mostly disingenuous. I care what I care about. I make no apologies for that.


Your care is disingenuous. You don’t care about children. You care about women not being allowed to choose. What you’re basically saying is that you have a very serious and firm stance on a problem, but are willing to do absolutely nothing to assist with solving it.

George Carlin nailed it years ago. Conservatives care about children from fetus to nine months. After that…nothing.
 
bgm
Posts: 2545
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 11:58 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Clutch101 wrote:
Texas, makes complete and total sense now. Have to ask, how many children are you currently fostering right now? How many total in your lifetime? How many children have you adopted? Bigger question, and one I feel I have to ask. How many non caucasian children have you adopted and/or fostered? And just for kicks, what did you name your bus, I'm going with "Prayer Warriors" Did you have a bumpersticker that said "Jeebus is my co-pilot"?


Clutch101, your line of questioning seems mostly disingenuous. I care what I care about. I make no apologies for that.


That's a total cop out.

So, once the child is born against the mother's will, thanks to you, what support do you think should be offered to that child going forward? Specifics please. Let's hear it.
 
bgm
Posts: 2545
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 12:01 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
In April of 1990, I traveled from Texas to Washington DC to attend the Rally For Life on the Washington Monument Grounds of the National Mall. VP Dan Quayle addressed the crowd of 700,000 that day, who came from all over the US to show their support for Life. That solidarity has paid off now with the SCOTUS decision to overturn Roe v Wade.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4652846/ ... life-rally

https://www.c-span.org/video/?12083-1/rally-life-1990


Just out of curiosity, do you support the death penalty?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8648
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 12:37 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Where Roe went wrong: A sweeping new abortion right built on a shaky legal foundation

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/ ... foundation

A very, very good article. And they finish with an interesting fact:

“There was no Republican-Democrat divide on abortion during the 1970s,” said Neal Devins, a College of William & Mary law professor. “In a poll taken shortly before Roe was decided, 68% of Republicans and 58% of Democrats said the decision to have an abortion should be made by a woman and her physician.”


Somewhat crap article actually - spends a lot of time talking about the language of Roe and then only mentions the following much later:

Some experts say the political battle over abortion — which became a starkly partisan issue only beginning in the 1980s — was unavoidable, regardless of the legal reasoning in Roe.

Mary Ziegler, a Florida State law professor and author of several books on the abortion wars, said she is “skeptical that it would have made a difference” if the court had written a different and better opinion.

“This is not about the reasoning in Roe,” she said. “It is a fight over two fundamental human rights, and for many, there can be no compromise. Overruling Roe won’t satisfy the anti-abortion movement.” They want the court to recognize a “right to life” for the unborn child, she said.


Dr. Ziegler has it right.


In the same manner the Constitution has never meant to give abortion rights, it does not restrict abortion in anyway. And it never has, including in the ~200 years of its existence pre-Roe.

Particularly if one is to look at this from a life versus death point of view. Murder is almost always a state issue.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17985
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 12:42 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Why should a women have to go through 9 months of hell just to adopt the child? Pregnancy is really hard on females, my wife hated it. If by some miracle she became pregnant again she would have an abortion.

Men should remove themselves from the abortion debate, it’s not our issue to fight, it does not effect men in the slightest.


Hear, hear. As a man I don’t feel this is any of my business, frankly. But as a man with many female loved ones, I will continue to advocate on their behalf.


You just agreed that all men should stay out of the debate, unless you are pro-choice, because you are advocating on women's behalf. I guess all women are pro-choice then. Got it.


Huh, no. None of those statements were made - please don't put words in my mouth.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17985
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 12:43 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Where Roe went wrong: A sweeping new abortion right built on a shaky legal foundation

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/ ... foundation

A very, very good article. And they finish with an interesting fact:

“There was no Republican-Democrat divide on abortion during the 1970s,” said Neal Devins, a College of William & Mary law professor. “In a poll taken shortly before Roe was decided, 68% of Republicans and 58% of Democrats said the decision to have an abortion should be made by a woman and her physician.”


Somewhat crap article actually - spends a lot of time talking about the language of Roe and then only mentions the following much later:

Some experts say the political battle over abortion — which became a starkly partisan issue only beginning in the 1980s — was unavoidable, regardless of the legal reasoning in Roe.

Mary Ziegler, a Florida State law professor and author of several books on the abortion wars, said she is “skeptical that it would have made a difference” if the court had written a different and better opinion.

“This is not about the reasoning in Roe,” she said. “It is a fight over two fundamental human rights, and for many, there can be no compromise. Overruling Roe won’t satisfy the anti-abortion movement.” They want the court to recognize a “right to life” for the unborn child, she said.


Dr. Ziegler has it right.


In the same manner the Constitution has never meant to give abortion rights, it does not restrict abortion in anyway. And it never has, including in the ~200 years of its existence pre-Roe.

Particularly if one is to look at this from a life versus death point of view. Murder is almost always a state issue.


Okay but the life/murder view is just an opinion and cannot be resolved in court until there's a meaningful nexus of consensus between theology/science/contemporary morality etc. That's not enough to hold regulatory sway over people's private conduct.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 12:48 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Where Roe went wrong: A sweeping new abortion right built on a shaky legal foundation

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/ ... foundation

A very, very good article. And they finish with an interesting fact:

“There was no Republican-Democrat divide on abortion during the 1970s,” said Neal Devins, a College of William & Mary law professor. “In a poll taken shortly before Roe was decided, 68% of Republicans and 58% of Democrats said the decision to have an abortion should be made by a woman and her physician.”


Somewhat crap article actually - spends a lot of time talking about the language of Roe and then only mentions the following much later:

Some experts say the political battle over abortion — which became a starkly partisan issue only beginning in the 1980s — was unavoidable, regardless of the legal reasoning in Roe.

Mary Ziegler, a Florida State law professor and author of several books on the abortion wars, said she is “skeptical that it would have made a difference” if the court had written a different and better opinion.

“This is not about the reasoning in Roe,” she said. “It is a fight over two fundamental human rights, and for many, there can be no compromise. Overruling Roe won’t satisfy the anti-abortion movement.” They want the court to recognize a “right to life” for the unborn child, she said.


Dr. Ziegler has it right.


In the same manner the Constitution has never meant to give abortion rights, it does not restrict abortion in anyway. And it never has, including in the ~200 years of its existence pre-Roe.

Particularly if one is to look at this from a life versus death point of view. Murder is almost always a state issue.


Since you are one of the more rational pro-choice users in this forum, perhaps you would also recognize as it is very obvious that:

1- Democrats don't trust the electorate to side with them on the abortion debate.

2- As a result, they prefer life-appointed judges to legislate for them, in this issue as with many others

3- They need a reason to campaign in elections and gather people to vote for them. Roe for 50 years have been their major rallying cry. That's why the base of support for the Democrat party is mostly women. This has served a great political treasure for them.

4- If Roe is struck down, its over for this topic to be a rallying point, unless they legislate.

5- They won't legislate because if they resolve the issue then they got nothing else to run on.

Right now as this country is headed for a recession, high inflation, crime and immigration issues, this leak is a godsend for them. They think people will vote for them for 'abortion rights'. Nope. Those who are strongly on both sides of this issue already vote for their respective parties. Its not going to change.

This is a great distraction from the main and serious issues Democrats don't want to talk about. Trump is no longer in power, and this is for them the best to fearmonger and make the GOP and conservatives as the worse of people.

So much for uniting the country.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17985
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 12:53 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Somewhat crap article actually - spends a lot of time talking about the language of Roe and then only mentions the following much later:

Some experts say the political battle over abortion — which became a starkly partisan issue only beginning in the 1980s — was unavoidable, regardless of the legal reasoning in Roe.

Mary Ziegler, a Florida State law professor and author of several books on the abortion wars, said she is “skeptical that it would have made a difference” if the court had written a different and better opinion.

“This is not about the reasoning in Roe,” she said. “It is a fight over two fundamental human rights, and for many, there can be no compromise. Overruling Roe won’t satisfy the anti-abortion movement.” They want the court to recognize a “right to life” for the unborn child, she said.


Dr. Ziegler has it right.


In the same manner the Constitution has never meant to give abortion rights, it does not restrict abortion in anyway. And it never has, including in the ~200 years of its existence pre-Roe.

Particularly if one is to look at this from a life versus death point of view. Murder is almost always a state issue.


Since you are one of the more rational pro-choice users in this forum, perhaps you would also recognize as it is very obvious that:

1- Democrats don't trust the electorate to side with them on the abortion debate.

2- As a result, they prefer life-appointed judges to legislate for them, in this issue as with many others

3- They need a reason to campaign in elections and gather people to vote for them. Roe for 50 years have been their major rallying cry. That's why the base of support for the Democrat party is mostly women. This has served a great political treasure for them.

4- If Roe is struck down, its over for this topic to be a rallying point, unless they legislate.

5- They won't legislate because if they resolve the issue then they got nothing else to run on.

Right now as this country is headed for a recession, high inflation, crime and immigration issues, this leak is a godsend for them. They think people will vote for them for 'abortion rights'. Nope. Those who are strongly on both sides of this issue already vote for their respective parties. Its not going to change.

This is a great distraction from the main and serious issues Democrats don't want to talk about. Trump is no longer in power, and this is for them the best to fearmonger and make the GOP and conservatives as the worse of people.

So much for uniting the country.


That ship sailed long ago...stop pretending there’s a fantasy world where the country is uniting anytime soon.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 1:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Hear, hear. As a man I don’t feel this is any of my business, frankly. But as a man with many female loved ones, I will continue to advocate on their behalf.


You just agreed that all men should stay out of the debate, unless you are pro-choice, because you are advocating on women's behalf. I guess all women are pro-choice then. Got it.


Huh, no. None of those statements were made - please don't put words in my mouth.


You insinuated it. Saying hear, hear to the previous post means you agree with the sentiment that men should stay out of the debate. You affirmed that by saying that none of this is your business as a man. But then say you will advocate on the females behalf (in support of the pro-choice stance) because you have female loved ones. That insinuates that all females are pro-choice.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17985
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 1:16 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

You just agreed that all men should stay out of the debate, unless you are pro-choice, because you are advocating on women's behalf. I guess all women are pro-choice then. Got it.


Huh, no. None of those statements were made - please don't put words in my mouth.


You insinuated it. Saying hear, hear to the previous post means you agree with the sentiment that men should stay out of the debate. You affirmed that by saying that none of this is your business as a man. But then say you will advocate on the females behalf (in support of the pro-choice stance) because you have female loved ones. That insinuates that all females are pro-choice.


The ‘hear hear’ meant I agreed with the spirit of the post - that pregnancy has far more impact on women than men and is not really our business if not directly involved. If I agreed with the specific phrase you cite I would have quoted only that.

I support the women in my life generally regardless of their view on this sole issue because they have it harder in life than we do. That’s one of the points this issue has always highlighted.

It’s pretty poor form to double down on presumption when clarification was already given.
 
emperortk
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 1:25 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I really don't understand the US justice system. How could the Supreme Court overturn another Supreme Court ruling? Shouldn't the ruling be final and binding once it has been made?

Also, why the hell would you allow Supreme Court justices to have a life term? Why can't it be amended so that Supreme Court justices only have a set term limit before retiring?


You just have to keep in mind that the in 21st century, the US has the 18th century's finest form of government.
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 6611
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 1:51 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Somewhat crap article actually - spends a lot of time talking about the language of Roe and then only mentions the following much later:

Some experts say the political battle over abortion — which became a starkly partisan issue only beginning in the 1980s — was unavoidable, regardless of the legal reasoning in Roe.

Mary Ziegler, a Florida State law professor and author of several books on the abortion wars, said she is “skeptical that it would have made a difference” if the court had written a different and better opinion.

“This is not about the reasoning in Roe,” she said. “It is a fight over two fundamental human rights, and for many, there can be no compromise. Overruling Roe won’t satisfy the anti-abortion movement.” They want the court to recognize a “right to life” for the unborn child, she said.


Dr. Ziegler has it right.


In the same manner the Constitution has never meant to give abortion rights, it does not restrict abortion in anyway. And it never has, including in the ~200 years of its existence pre-Roe.

Particularly if one is to look at this from a life versus death point of view. Murder is almost always a state issue.


Since you are one of the more rational pro-choice users in this forum, perhaps you would also recognize as it is very obvious that:

1- Democrats don't trust the electorate to side with them on the abortion debate.

2- As a result, they prefer life-appointed judges to legislate for them, in this issue as with many others

3- They need a reason to campaign in elections and gather people to vote for them. Roe for 50 years have been their major rallying cry. That's why the base of support for the Democrat party is mostly women. This has served a great political treasure for them.

4- If Roe is struck down, its over for this topic to be a rallying point, unless they legislate.

5- They won't legislate because if they resolve the issue then they got nothing else to run on.

Right now as this country is headed for a recession, high inflation, crime and immigration issues, this leak is a godsend for them. They think people will vote for them for 'abortion rights'. Nope. Those who are strongly on both sides of this issue already vote for their respective parties. Its not going to change.

This is a great distraction from the main and serious issues Democrats don't want to talk about. Trump is no longer in power, and this is for them the best to fearmonger and make the GOP and conservatives as the worse of people.

So much for uniting the country.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 ... -slightly/
The different between party support across gender is just about ~10%.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11935
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 1:52 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
You are correct, animals kill their babies. Animals do a lot of things that we, as civilized humans, do not nor should we want to. If a father were to kill their young, they would face the repercussions of that in society. Again, it's a fallacy, what does that have to do with humans choosing to have abortions?

You are the one that introduced the idea of some level of concurrence between humans and animals. Something regarding how humans were gifted the responsibility of procreation... Procreation is just a fact of life. As is abortion and the decision to not carry or support said creation.

And of course there are repercussions. Women who have abortions carry that fact with them. As does anybody for any decision they make that affects the life of another. TO not take care of a mother in need, or to coddle a child excessively, or avoid a relative that one disagrees with, etc. All these things have an impact on the person and society.

Tugg
 
emperortk
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:10 pm

Tugger wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
You are correct, animals kill their babies. Animals do a lot of things that we, as civilized humans, do not nor should we want to. If a father were to kill their young, they would face the repercussions of that in society. Again, it's a fallacy, what does that have to do with humans choosing to have abortions?

You are the one that introduced the idea of some level of concurrence between humans and animals. Something regarding how humans were gifted the responsibility of procreation... Procreation is just a fact of life. As is abortion and the decision to not carry or support said creation.

And of course there are repercussions. Women who have abortions carry that fact with them. As does anybody for any decision they make that affects the life of another. TO not take care of a mother in need, or to coddle a child excessively, or avoid a relative that one disagrees with, etc. All these things have an impact on the person and society.

Tugg


And the implication was that because animals don't perform intentional abortions, humans doing so is somehow aberrant behavior. Lack of abortion in the animal kingdom was used as an argument against human abortion. Now that it's been pointed out that animals do eat or kill their offspring at times, which amounts to the same thing as an abortion--thereby undermining the previous contention, suddenly this line of argument is irrelevant.
 
FGITD
Posts: 2120
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:22 pm

emperortk wrote:

And the implication was that because animals don't perform intentional abortions, humans doing so is somehow aberrant behavior. Lack of abortion in the animal kingdom was used as an argument against human abortion. Now that it's been pointed out that animals do eat or kill their offspring at times, which amounts to the same thing as an abortion--thereby undermining the previous contention, suddenly this line of argument is irrelevant.


It’s strange argument to make given how many animals will toss aside their offspring when in danger. Mom can have more kids, but without mom the kid is useless.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:23 pm

c933103 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

In the same manner the Constitution has never meant to give abortion rights, it does not restrict abortion in anyway. And it never has, including in the ~200 years of its existence pre-Roe.

Particularly if one is to look at this from a life versus death point of view. Murder is almost always a state issue.


Since you are one of the more rational pro-choice users in this forum, perhaps you would also recognize as it is very obvious that:

1- Democrats don't trust the electorate to side with them on the abortion debate.

2- As a result, they prefer life-appointed judges to legislate for them, in this issue as with many others

3- They need a reason to campaign in elections and gather people to vote for them. Roe for 50 years have been their major rallying cry. That's why the base of support for the Democrat party is mostly women. This has served a great political treasure for them.

4- If Roe is struck down, its over for this topic to be a rallying point, unless they legislate.

5- They won't legislate because if they resolve the issue then they got nothing else to run on.

Right now as this country is headed for a recession, high inflation, crime and immigration issues, this leak is a godsend for them. They think people will vote for them for 'abortion rights'. Nope. Those who are strongly on both sides of this issue already vote for their respective parties. Its not going to change.

This is a great distraction from the main and serious issues Democrats don't want to talk about. Trump is no longer in power, and this is for them the best to fearmonger and make the GOP and conservatives as the worse of people.

So much for uniting the country.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 ... -slightly/
The different between party support across gender is just about ~10%.


College educated women, 35%. That makes a huge difference.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15496
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:32 pm

Interesting poll from 2018 shows the changing differences among women by age on abortion. Will be interesting to see if Pew/Gallup run this again soon .

https://news.gallup.com/poll/235652/you ... ights.aspx

Image
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17985
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:47 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Since you are one of the more rational pro-choice users in this forum, perhaps you would also recognize as it is very obvious that:

1- Democrats don't trust the electorate to side with them on the abortion debate.

2- As a result, they prefer life-appointed judges to legislate for them, in this issue as with many others

3- They need a reason to campaign in elections and gather people to vote for them. Roe for 50 years have been their major rallying cry. That's why the base of support for the Democrat party is mostly women. This has served a great political treasure for them.

4- If Roe is struck down, its over for this topic to be a rallying point, unless they legislate.

5- They won't legislate because if they resolve the issue then they got nothing else to run on.

Right now as this country is headed for a recession, high inflation, crime and immigration issues, this leak is a godsend for them. They think people will vote for them for 'abortion rights'. Nope. Those who are strongly on both sides of this issue already vote for their respective parties. Its not going to change.

This is a great distraction from the main and serious issues Democrats don't want to talk about. Trump is no longer in power, and this is for them the best to fearmonger and make the GOP and conservatives as the worse of people.

So much for uniting the country.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 ... -slightly/
The different between party support across gender is just about ~10%.


College educated women, 35%. That makes a huge difference.


Not very significant when only 38% of US women overall are college-educated.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/184 ... by-gender/
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 17985
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:48 pm

casinterest wrote:
Interesting poll from 2018 shows the changing differences among women by age on abortion. Will be interesting to see if Pew/Gallup run this again soon .

https://news.gallup.com/poll/235652/you ... ights.aspx

Image


I wonder what could make senior women shift so much in that period?
 
luckyone
Posts: 4455
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:51 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Interesting poll from 2018 shows the changing differences among women by age on abortion. Will be interesting to see if Pew/Gallup run this again soon .

https://news.gallup.com/poll/235652/you ... ights.aspx

Image


I wonder what could make senior women shift so much in that period?

The generation of women who became becoming senior vs. the generation before them that died.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 809
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Thu May 05, 2022 2:54 pm

emperortk wrote:
Tugger wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
You are correct, animals kill their babies. Animals do a lot of things that we, as civilized humans, do not nor should we want to. If a father were to kill their young, they would face the repercussions of that in society. Again, it's a fallacy, what does that have to do with humans choosing to have abortions?

You are the one that introduced the idea of some level of concurrence between humans and animals. Something regarding how humans were gifted the responsibility of procreation... Procreation is just a fact of life. As is abortion and the decision to not carry or support said creation.

And of course there are repercussions. Women who have abortions carry that fact with them. As does anybody for any decision they make that affects the life of another. TO not take care of a mother in need, or to coddle a child excessively, or avoid a relative that one disagrees with, etc. All these things have an impact on the person and society.

Tugg


And the implication was that because animals don't perform intentional abortions, humans doing so is somehow aberrant behavior. Lack of abortion in the animal kingdom was used as an argument against human abortion. Now that it's been pointed out that animals do eat or kill their offspring at times, which amounts to the same thing as an abortion--thereby undermining the previous contention, suddenly this line of argument is irrelevant.


The killing of their young is irrelevant, that was put out there by another poster not me. I did not start the whole line of reasoning, I did partake in it, but not start it. I just pointed out that no animals chose to have apportions. I didn't bring it up though.
  • 1
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 22

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: johns624, Tugger, Vintage and 27 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos