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bpatus297
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:37 pm

luckyone wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Legal and free up to 23wks and 6 days. A timescale generally in line with a foetus being viable, I.e. when it can survive without behaving as a parasite.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



And there will still be plenty of states that have, minus the free part. I personally think the heartbeat is a good compromise since I am really not convinced one way or another when life begins. However, the minute you call a fetus a parasite, I'm done.

Parasite: A parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host organism and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. A fetus is a parasite by the medical definition. Nevermind that the term has been given a larger emotional connotation, but plenty of parasites exist without being an entirely negative relationship with the host.


I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4551
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:40 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:


And there will still be plenty of states that have, minus the free part. I personally think the heartbeat is a good compromise since I am really not convinced one way or another when life begins. However, the minute you call a fetus a parasite, I'm done.

Parasite: A parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host organism and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. A fetus is a parasite by the medical definition. Nevermind that the term has been given a larger emotional connotation, but plenty of parasites exist without being an entirely negative relationship with the host.


I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.

One of the main issues at hand with the contentious topic of abortion is plenty of dehumanization is done at the policy level to the kid once it's out...and nobody gives a damn. So I can't help but roll my eyes at the temporal concern for human life. I don't deny that abortion is preventing a human life from getting off the ground. But I've seen enough situations personally where the kids never have a shot, and just end up a statistic that I don't have a problem with a mother who has no intention or ability to care for her kid just short circuiting all of that. For a macro example, look at Romania after they outlawed abortion and contraception (unless a woman had had five children) in the 1960s. They're JUST being able to close all the terrible state institutions where all the orphans ended up. It's a terrible decision, but we make unavoidable terrible decisions all the time with no win outcomes.
Last edited by luckyone on Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:48 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
Newark727
Posts: 3057
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:42 pm

bpatus297 wrote:

I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.


It's incorrect to say she "had" a part (past tense) in the "actions that made the fetus." She has a part all the way through pregnancy. The actions that make the fetus are continually underway in her body until she actually gives birth, and as such they're her responsibility. She can withdraw consent for sexual intercourse at any time. Likewise she can withdraw consent for the processes making a fetus in her body until it can live without her.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:46 pm

Newark727 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.


It's incorrect to say she "had" a part (past tense) in the "actions that made the fetus." She has a part all the way through pregnancy. The actions that make the fetus are continually underway in her body until she actually gives birth, and as such they're her responsibility.


I don't know what to say other than mother nature is cruel. But again, it's not like people don't know you can get pregnant from sex. And its not like people don't know that women carry the fetus.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4531
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:48 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:


And there will still be plenty of states that have, minus the free part. I personally think the heartbeat is a good compromise since I am really not convinced one way or another when life begins. However, the minute you call a fetus a parasite, I'm done.

Parasite: A parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host organism and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. A fetus is a parasite by the medical definition. Nevermind that the term has been given a larger emotional connotation, but plenty of parasites exist without being an entirely negative relationship with the host.


I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.


So you know what the definition is but you just don’t like facts? I don’t know what to tell you, maybe you need to find a safe space? Or maybe the internet isn’t for you?

Yes the woman had a part in making the foetus, why does that make a difference? McDonalds had a significant part in the stains on my toilet, I don’t need to force them to come clean it.

Dehumanising a foetus? Well that’s like trying to scare an atheist with threats of hell, when no such place exists. Eating steak is dehumanising to cows right?

Still in favour of enforced organ donation or are you still going to ignore that one?

Fred


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flipdewaf
Posts: 4531
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:51 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.


It's incorrect to say she "had" a part (past tense) in the "actions that made the fetus." She has a part all the way through pregnancy. The actions that make the fetus are continually underway in her body until she actually gives birth, and as such they're her responsibility.


I don't know what to say other than mother nature is cruel. But again, it's not like people don't know you can get pregnant from sex. And its not like people don't know that women carry the fetus.

And Mother Nature gave humans the ability to control childbirth post conception. Why can’t you just suck that up?

People also know it’s possible to have sex and not have a baby (abortion being a thing).

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
FGITD
Posts: 2159
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:00 pm

flipdewaf wrote:

I don't know what to say other than mother nature is cruel. But again, it's not like people don't know you can get pregnant from sex. And its not like people don't know that women carry the fetus.

And Mother Nature gave humans the ability to control childbirth post conception. Why can’t you just suck that up?

People also know it’s possible to have sex and not have a baby (abortion being a thing).

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/quote]

That concept is also unfathomably stupid. Nature neither gives nor takes. It simply is the way things are.

But lo and behold, we as humans have figured out ways to manipulate that to our benefit. Abortion being one such scenario.

The argument of “it’s not in the constitution” is a stupid one used by uneducated people. The purpose of the constitution wasn’t supposed to be the end-all, be-all to rights. It’s meant to be the bare minimum. The framers more or less put it down as a structure, and wanted the future to build on this foundation to improve lives as time goes on. It was famously said that the constitution must adapt because the living shouldn’t be governed by the dead. Yet here we are, holding a hundreds of years old document up as a deity. To use the constitution as justification for taking away peoples rights is a slap in the face to everything it’s writers stood for.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:05 pm

FGITD wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

I don't know what to say other than mother nature is cruel. But again, it's not like people don't know you can get pregnant from sex. And its not like people don't know that women carry the fetus.

And Mother Nature gave humans the ability to control childbirth post conception. Why can’t you just suck that up?

People also know it’s possible to have sex and not have a baby (abortion being a thing).

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That concept is also unfathomably stupid. Nature neither gives nor takes. It simply is the way things are.

But lo and behold, we as humans have figured out ways to manipulate that to our benefit. Abortion being one such scenario.

The argument of “it’s not in the constitution” is a stupid one used by uneducated people. The purpose of the constitution wasn’t supposed to be the end-all, be-all to rights. It’s meant to be the bare minimum. The framers more or less put it down as a structure, and wanted the future to build on this foundation to improve lives as time goes on. It was famously said that the constitution must adapt because the living shouldn’t be governed by the dead. Yet here we are, holding a hundreds of years old document up as a deity. To use the constitution as justification for taking away peoples rights is a slap in the face to everything it’s writers stood for.[/quote]

I agree the constitution can adapt, but Congress failed to codify Roe so we are where we are today due to Congress' inaction.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4531
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:09 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

I don't know what to say other than mother nature is cruel. But again, it's not like people don't know you can get pregnant from sex. And its not like people don't know that women carry the fetus.

And Mother Nature gave humans the ability to control childbirth post conception. Why can’t you just suck that up?

People also know it’s possible to have sex and not have a baby (abortion being a thing).

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That concept is also unfathomably stupid. Nature neither gives nor takes. It simply is the way things are.

But lo and behold, we as humans have figured out ways to manipulate that to our benefit. Abortion being one such scenario.

The argument of “it’s not in the constitution” is a stupid one used by uneducated people. The purpose of the constitution wasn’t supposed to be the end-all, be-all to rights. It’s meant to be the bare minimum. The framers more or less put it down as a structure, and wanted the future to build on this foundation to improve lives as time goes on. It was famously said that the constitution must adapt because the living shouldn’t be governed by the dead. Yet here we are, holding a hundreds of years old document up as a deity. To use the constitution as justification for taking away peoples rights is a slap in the face to everything it’s writers stood for.


I agree the constitution can adapt, but Congress failed to codify Roe so we are where we are today due to Congress' inaction.[/quote]
So you agree that it should be legal, like what civilised places do? It’s just congress that hasn’t acted correctly.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Newark727
Posts: 3057
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:09 pm

FGITD wrote:
The argument of “it’s not in the constitution” is a stupid one used by uneducated people. The purpose of the constitution wasn’t supposed to be the end-all, be-all to rights. It’s meant to be the bare minimum. The framers more or less put it down as a structure, and wanted the future to build on this foundation to improve lives as time goes on. It was famously said that the constitution must adapt because the living shouldn’t be governed by the dead. Yet here we are, holding a hundreds of years old document up as a deity. To use the constitution as justification for taking away peoples rights is a slap in the face to everything it’s writers stood for.


Ah but you see, SCOTUS isn't taking away anyone's rights, it's just giving them to the states. Weird how that doesn't seem to reassure anybody, isn't it, what with the states having a literal centuries-long record of passing legislation to take away rights to vote, rights to practice religion and hold public office, rights to marry who you choose, rights to an education...
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:17 pm

I find this curious. So, the moron party’s leader feels this is bad for them in the midterms. It’s almost as if they don’t actually care for a useless clump of cells.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tru ... 263692.php
 
luckyone
Posts: 4551
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:23 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
I find this curious. So, the moron party’s leader feels this is bad for them in the midterms. It’s almost as if they don’t actually care for a useless clump of cells.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tru ... 263692.php

For all of his bluster, chicanery, and overall diabolical nature his political instincts have often been right.
 
FGITD
Posts: 2159
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:27 pm

Newark727 wrote:

Ah but you see, SCOTUS isn't taking away anyone's rights, it's just giving them to the states. Weird how that doesn't seem to reassure anybody, isn't it, what with the states having a literal centuries-long record of passing legislation to take away rights to vote, rights to practice religion and hold public office, rights to marry who you choose, rights to an education...


Why, it’s almost as if the government doesn’t act in the interests of its people? But that can’t be. They’re all democratically elected. The president himself is elected via a fair and just process that gives every single vote from every state the same weight, right?

Perhaps the US should import some French people. They seem to have a pretty good idea of how to handle a government
 
kaitak
Posts: 10189
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:31 pm

And on top of that you can see Thomas's other suggestion that the same attention will also be given to other recent rulings, such as Obergefell (same sex marriage) and even rulings on contraception. All of this goes back, I think to whether the Constitution is to be interpreted as at the date of its creation (1787), or should be interpreted in such a way that it grows/evolves with the society it serves. There was, of course, no abortion in 1787; it probably wasn't even heard. Slavery was, of course, so I don't really buy that argument. The USSC is basically saying that the law should be interpreted in a way that it was intended in 1787 - by rich, white, slave-owning men. That's not really a good basis for a modern society to develop. And with at least 20 states only itching to place all kinds of restrictions on abortion, they had to know which way States would rule on this, but they simply DIDN'T CARE.

So, we only await other cases to be brought in response to Thomas's invitation. And of course, they will. And the upshot of this? You will end up with effectively a two-speed society; a rump of very restrictive states on social issues (Red states) and the more liberal (Blue) states. And you have to wonder what this means for American society, down the road? Some might say, "well, it's always been like this, since the civil war", but it can't be good for the cohesion of a country if you have a group of states which are very restrictive when it comes to freedom and another group, which are not. I think we're seeing a very dangerous precedent here.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4551
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:34 pm

kaitak wrote:
And on top of that you can see Thomas's other suggestion that the same attention will also be given to other recent rulings, such as Obergefell (same sex marriage) and even rulings on contraception. All of this goes back, I think to whether the Constitution is to be interpreted as at the date of its creation (1787), or should be interpreted in such a way that it grows/evolves with the society it serves. There was, of course, no abortion in 1787; it probably wasn't even heard. Slavery was, of course, so I don't really buy that argument. The USSC is basically saying that the law should be interpreted in a way that it was intended in 1787 - by rich, white, slave-owning men. That's not really a good basis for a modern society to develop. And with at least 20 states only itching to place all kinds of restrictions on abortion, they had to know which way States would rule on this, but they simply DIDN'T CARE.

So, we only await other cases to be brought in response to Thomas's invitation. And of course, they will. And the upshot of this? You will end up with effectively a two-speed society; a rump of very restrictive states on social issues (Red states) and the more liberal (Blue) states. And you have to wonder what this means for American society, down the road? Some might say, "well, it's always been like this, since the civil war", but it can't be good for the cohesion of a country if you have a group of states which are very restrictive when it comes to freedom and another group, which are not. I think we're seeing a very dangerous precedent here.

Perhaps. Or the possibility that Justice Thomas' opinion was his own and not an opinion joined by the other justices may mean that the numbers of justices electing to hear such cases will result in them not being heard. This court has We shall see. Either way I'm glad I have a second passport and a job that allows me to work pretty much anywhere.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4531
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:38 pm

Newark727 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
The argument of “it’s not in the constitution” is a stupid one used by uneducated people. The purpose of the constitution wasn’t supposed to be the end-all, be-all to rights. It’s meant to be the bare minimum. The framers more or less put it down as a structure, and wanted the future to build on this foundation to improve lives as time goes on. It was famously said that the constitution must adapt because the living shouldn’t be governed by the dead. Yet here we are, holding a hundreds of years old document up as a deity. To use the constitution as justification for taking away peoples rights is a slap in the face to everything it’s writers stood for.


Ah but you see, SCOTUS isn't taking away anyone's rights, it's just giving them to the states. Weird how that doesn't seem to reassure anybody, isn't it, what with the states having a literal centuries-long record of passing legislation to take away rights to vote, rights to practice religion and hold public office, rights to marry who you choose, rights to an education...

It’s like saying “but your honour, I didn’t kill the boy, I just pushed him in to the pit of snakes, it was the snakes that killed him”

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
N867DA
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:38 pm

kaitak wrote:
And on top of that you can see Thomas's other suggestion that the same attention will also be given to other recent rulings, such as Obergefell (same sex marriage) and even rulings on contraception. All of this goes back, I think to whether the Constitution is to be interpreted as at the date of its creation (1787), or should be interpreted in such a way that it grows/evolves with the society it serves. There was, of course, no abortion in 1787; it probably wasn't even heard. Slavery was, of course, so I don't really buy that argument. The USSC is basically saying that the law should be interpreted in a way that it was intended in 1787 - by rich, white, slave-owning men. That's not really a good basis for a modern society to develop. And with at least 20 states only itching to place all kinds of restrictions on abortion, they had to know which way States would rule on this, but they simply DIDN'T CARE.

So, we only await other cases to be brought in response to Thomas's invitation. And of course, they will. And the upshot of this? You will end up with effectively a two-speed society; a rump of very restrictive states on social issues (Red states) and the more liberal (Blue) states. And you have to wonder what this means for American society, down the road? Some might say, "well, it's always been like this, since the civil war", but it can't be good for the cohesion of a country if you have a group of states which are very restrictive when it comes to freedom and another group, which are not. I think we're seeing a very dangerous precedent here.


To throw more alarm, the number of times "historical" or "cultural" precedent has been used to support faulty decisions is appalling. Justice Thomas's marriage itself, much less his position on the court would be unlawful but for interpretations by the Supreme Court in the past handful of generations. The Court, in general, has always expanded individual rights and liberties--opening the doors for suspects to get fairer trials and representation, for people to marry whomever they would like, and for institutions to not shackle people for their basic human background or identity. In recent years, the Court protects the haves (campaign finance, binding arbitration) over the have-nots and tramples on secular society to go back to some Normal Rockwell America that would ironically exclude many of its own members.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4551
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:41 pm

N867DA wrote:
kaitak wrote:
And on top of that you can see Thomas's other suggestion that the same attention will also be given to other recent rulings, such as Obergefell (same sex marriage) and even rulings on contraception. All of this goes back, I think to whether the Constitution is to be interpreted as at the date of its creation (1787), or should be interpreted in such a way that it grows/evolves with the society it serves. There was, of course, no abortion in 1787; it probably wasn't even heard. Slavery was, of course, so I don't really buy that argument. The USSC is basically saying that the law should be interpreted in a way that it was intended in 1787 - by rich, white, slave-owning men. That's not really a good basis for a modern society to develop. And with at least 20 states only itching to place all kinds of restrictions on abortion, they had to know which way States would rule on this, but they simply DIDN'T CARE.

So, we only await other cases to be brought in response to Thomas's invitation. And of course, they will. And the upshot of this? You will end up with effectively a two-speed society; a rump of very restrictive states on social issues (Red states) and the more liberal (Blue) states. And you have to wonder what this means for American society, down the road? Some might say, "well, it's always been like this, since the civil war", but it can't be good for the cohesion of a country if you have a group of states which are very restrictive when it comes to freedom and another group, which are not. I think we're seeing a very dangerous precedent here.


To throw more alarm, the number of times "historical" or "cultural" precedent has been used to support faulty decisions is appalling. Justice Thomas's marriage itself, much less his position on the court would be unlawful but for interpretations by the Supreme Court in the past handful of generations. The Court, in general, has always expanded individual rights and liberties--opening the doors for suspects to get fairer trials and representation, for people to marry whomever they would like, and for institutions to not shackle people for their basic human background or identity. In recent years, the Court protects the haves (campaign finance, binding arbitration) over the have-nots and tramples on secular society to go back to some Normal Rockwell America that would ironically exclude many of its own members.

As much as I try to avoid using it, as it is overused, the term "Uncle Tom" exists for a reason.
 
Jalap
Posts: 743
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:48 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:


And there will still be plenty of states that have, minus the free part. I personally think the heartbeat is a good compromise since I am really not convinced one way or another when life begins. However, the minute you call a fetus a parasite, I'm done.

Parasite: A parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host organism and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. A fetus is a parasite by the medical definition. Nevermind that the term has been given a larger emotional connotation, but plenty of parasites exist without being an entirely negative relationship with the host.


I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.

Somebody else had a part as well.
What are regulations for the father?
I do suppose the father is legally obliged to take care of 50% of the costs and efforts of upbringing the baby?
Question because I honestly have no idea about the rights and duties of the biological father.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:55 pm

Jalap wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Parasite: A parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host organism and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. A fetus is a parasite by the medical definition. Nevermind that the term has been given a larger emotional connotation, but plenty of parasites exist without being an entirely negative relationship with the host.


I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.

Somebody else had a part as well.
What are regulations for the father?
I do suppose the father is legally obliged to take care of 50% of the costs and efforts of upbringing the baby?
Question because I honestly have no idea about the rights and duties of the biological father.


Correct, if the father leaves the mother, they are responsible for child support.
 
Jalap
Posts: 743
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:01 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.

Somebody else had a part as well.
What are regulations for the father?
I do suppose the father is legally obliged to take care of 50% of the costs and efforts of upbringing the baby?
Question because I honestly have no idea about the rights and duties of the biological father.


Correct, if the father leaves the mother, they are responsible for child support.

Are women allowed to demand paternity tests (free of charge)?
What if the father cannot be found? State pays half?
 
N867DA
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:07 pm

Frankly, I think this sets the bar such that states that ban abortion are responsible for total healthcare for the fetus--even making sure the woman eats a nutritious diet, does not over-exert or place any strain on the body, and has time off work without worrying about finances to make sure the fetus is healthy and develops into an actual human being. The mother should not be allowed near alcohol, caffeine, or smoking at all.
 
emperortk
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:09 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.

Somebody else had a part as well.
What are regulations for the father?
I do suppose the father is legally obliged to take care of 50% of the costs and efforts of upbringing the baby?
Question because I honestly have no idea about the rights and duties of the biological father.


Correct, if the father leaves the mother, they are responsible for child support.


It's convenient to pretend that parents will share the financial burden in the event the mother and father aren't together, but of course, that's not how it plays out. Less than half of single-custodian parents receive the full amount of child support due.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/us-child-support-statistics-2997994
Among the 6.8 million custodial single parents who were awarded child support in 2015, only 43.5% received all of the child support money that was due (similar to the 43.4% seen in 2011)

And that only includes cases where there is court-ordered child support. There are plenty of instances where for one reason or another, there is no child support at all. But I can definitely understand why abortion opponents want to maintain a fantasy where somehow both parents are apportioned equal responsibility for an unplanned pregnancy.
 
emperortk
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:11 pm

kaitak wrote:
And on top of that you can see Thomas's other suggestion that the same attention will also be given to other recent rulings, such as Obergefell (same sex marriage) and even rulings on contraception. All of this goes back, I think to whether the Constitution is to be interpreted as at the date of its creation (1787), or should be interpreted in such a way that it grows/evolves with the society it serves. There was, of course, no abortion in 1787; it probably wasn't even heard. Slavery was, of course, so I don't really buy that argument. The USSC is basically saying that the law should be interpreted in a way that it was intended in 1787 - by rich, white, slave-owning men. That's not really a good basis for a modern society to develop. And with at least 20 states only itching to place all kinds of restrictions on abortion, they had to know which way States would rule on this, but they simply DIDN'T CARE.

So, we only await other cases to be brought in response to Thomas's invitation. And of course, they will. And the upshot of this? You will end up with effectively a two-speed society; a rump of very restrictive states on social issues (Red states) and the more liberal (Blue) states. And you have to wonder what this means for American society, down the road? Some might say, "well, it's always been like this, since the civil war", but it can't be good for the cohesion of a country if you have a group of states which are very restrictive when it comes to freedom and another group, which are not. I think we're seeing a very dangerous precedent here.


Abortion very much existed in 1787. They were legal prior to "quickening" and generally not controversial. Not until the mid-nineteenth century did banning abortion become a thing in the US, and that movement was spearheaded by male doctors seeking to supplant midwives.
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/04/1096154028/the-movement-against-abortion-rights-is-nearing-its-apex-but-it-began-way-before

Ben Franklin published a book that included instructions on how to perform an abortion at home.
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099542962/abortion-ben-franklin-roe-wade-supreme-court-leak
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:11 pm

Jalap wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Somebody else had a part as well.
What are regulations for the father?
I do suppose the father is legally obliged to take care of 50% of the costs and efforts of upbringing the baby?
Question because I honestly have no idea about the rights and duties of the biological father.


Correct, if the father leaves the mother, they are responsible for child support.

Are women allowed to demand paternity tests (free of charge)?
What if the father cannot be found? State pays half?


I know there are paternity tests, but I don't know how that is all handled. I'm sure it varies from state to state.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:14 pm

Terrible day. Most Supreme Court justices are dirty liars and perjurers. Is there a single one who actually looks at laws, is it just ideology?

In my book, it is better not to pretend you have principles at all than to dress yourself in a black robe, testify that you respect Supreme Court precedents and then mess all over them like a dirty dog. Those justices are lower than low. What a shame. What a shame for their families and legacies. Good, honorable lives just thrown away.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:14 pm

emperortk wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Somebody else had a part as well.
What are regulations for the father?
I do suppose the father is legally obliged to take care of 50% of the costs and efforts of upbringing the baby?
Question because I honestly have no idea about the rights and duties of the biological father.


Correct, if the father leaves the mother, they are responsible for child support.


It's convenient to pretend that parents will share the financial burden in the event the mother and father aren't together, but of course, that's not how it plays out. Less than half of single-custodian parents receive the full amount of child support due.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/us-child-support-statistics-2997994
Among the 6.8 million custodial single parents who were awarded child support in 2015, only 43.5% received all of the child support money that was due (similar to the 43.4% seen in 2011)

And that only includes cases where there is court-ordered child support. There are plenty of instances where for one reason or another, there is no child support at all. But I can definitely understand why abortion opponents want to maintain a fantasy where somehow both parents are apportioned equal responsibility for an unplanned pregnancy.



I never said the system was perfect. Just because it has flaws should have no bearing on abortion. Again, Congress (federal or states) should fix the issues.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:30 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus.

I don't know what to say other than mother nature is cruel. But again, it's not like people don't know you can get pregnant from sex.

See, this is the kind of argument that shows that it's not about the fetus but about control and power.

"You took part in something which does not confirm to my worldview, therefore you must suffer for your actions. We could help you but choose not to."
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:30 pm

This woman took the words right out of my mouth: https://twitter.com/SaintHoax/status/15 ... tvKuX9HrYQ
 
mxaxai
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:35 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
No, nothing in my body is even remotely close to a fetus.

Unless you're sterile, your body contains thousands if not millions of reproductive cells, all of which have the potential to grow into a fetus when given the right environment.
 
N867DA
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:37 pm

Young people, do not worry--as boomers and old people who have bought into the Reagan-era Christocapitalism vision pass the baton of power to a new generation, America can bounce back. It just takes some time. Generational shifts happen all the time--even Roe was decided 7-2, by the grandparents of the generation that overturned it. Just live on to see a more rational, free-thinking day.
Last edited by N867DA on Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jalap
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:48 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Correct, if the father leaves the mother, they are responsible for child support.

Are women allowed to demand paternity tests (free of charge)?
What if the father cannot be found? State pays half?


I know there are paternity tests, but I don't know how that is all handled. I'm sure it varies from state to state.

But surely, considering your opinions on abortion, you must be informed (or at least be concerned) about the end to end process, from conception to the point the human is an adult?
And surely we all agree that the cost in money, time and effort for the upbringing of a child should never fall on the shoulders of the mother alone?
If you want to force unwanted children to be born, you must have guarantees written in stone that this child has every opportunity to grow up to a competent, educated, healthy and even happy adult. Even if neither of the parents have the financial means or available time to raise a child.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:49 pm

It’s weird. Is there something in the bible that says Christianfolk should care what others do with their bodies?
 
emperortk
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:50 pm

FGITD wrote:
The argument of “it’s not in the constitution” is a stupid one used by uneducated people. The purpose of the constitution wasn’t supposed to be the end-all, be-all to rights. It’s meant to be the bare minimum. The framers more or less put it down as a structure, and wanted the future to build on this foundation to improve lives as time goes on. It was famously said that the constitution must adapt because the living shouldn’t be governed by the dead. Yet here we are, holding a hundreds of years old document up as a deity. To use the constitution as justification for taking away peoples rights is a slap in the face to everything it’s writers stood for.


It's OT, but the reverence for the Constitution and its framers is also extra hilarious to me in consideration of the fact that many of them owned other human beings. No taxation without representation! But enslaving people based on race, meh it's fine.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:52 pm

emperortk wrote:
FGITD wrote:
The argument of “it’s not in the constitution” is a stupid one used by uneducated people. The purpose of the constitution wasn’t supposed to be the end-all, be-all to rights. It’s meant to be the bare minimum. The framers more or less put it down as a structure, and wanted the future to build on this foundation to improve lives as time goes on. It was famously said that the constitution must adapt because the living shouldn’t be governed by the dead. Yet here we are, holding a hundreds of years old document up as a deity. To use the constitution as justification for taking away peoples rights is a slap in the face to everything it’s writers stood for.


It's OT, but the reverence for the Constitution and its framers is also extra hilarious to me in consideration of the fact that many of them owned other human beings. No taxation without representation! But enslaving people based on race, meh it's fine.



I suppose we’re learning what pieces of shit they truly are. Way way worse than we could have imagined
 
emperortk
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:54 pm

Jalap wrote:
And surely we all agree that the cost in money, time and effort for the upbringing of a child should never fall on the shoulders of the mother alone?


male abortion opponents have left the chat
 
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atcsundevil
Moderator
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:01 pm

Please stay on topic and engage respectfully. Some of the comments are getting way too personal, and way too harsh. This is an emotionally charged subject, but attacking "the other side" isn't going to accomplish anything.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:05 pm

emperortk wrote:
Jalap wrote:
And surely we all agree that the cost in money, time and effort for the upbringing of a child should never fall on the shoulders of the mother alone?


male abortion opponents have left the chat[/

I think they’re attending the call to prayer
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 370
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:08 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Please stay on topic and engage respectfully. Some of the comments are getting way too personal, and way too harsh. This is an emotionally charged subject, but attacking "the other side" isn't going to accomplish anything.

✈️ atcsundevil


You’re right and I admit that I am a bit charged up so please pardon me.

You bring up a good point, however. If, at this point, attacking the other side won’t accomplish anything, are you saying rational discussion will? I appreciate the sentiment but do you think, after moderating these forums, that rational discussion works?
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:30 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please stay on topic and engage respectfully. Some of the comments are getting way too personal, and way too harsh. This is an emotionally charged subject, but attacking "the other side" isn't going to accomplish anything.

✈️ atcsundevil


You’re right and I admit that I am a bit charged up so please pardon me.

You bring up a good point, however. If, at this point, attacking the other side won’t accomplish anything, are you saying rational discussion will? I appreciate the sentiment but do you think, after moderating these forums, that rational discussion works?


It's not like this forum is going to solve this issue whether it's rational discussion or mud slinging. We're not the Supreme Court, Congress, or anyone with political power (unless there's members here who are politicians).

Will rational discussion accomplish anything? I doubt it, since it seems like nearly, if not everyone here has already chosen a side and will stick with it. On one side it's those (including me) defending women's rights and separating church and state as is law, and the other side is trying to defend this decision because it seems they know what's best for women.
 
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NIKV69
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:35 pm

SEAorPWM wrote:

That said, how do two mostly white, poorly-educated rural states (KY and ME) have so much power in the Senate right now?


You remember every state has two senators in congress right?
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:16 pm

mxaxai wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus.

I don't know what to say other than mother nature is cruel. But again, it's not like people don't know you can get pregnant from sex.

See, this is the kind of argument that shows that it's not about the fetus but about control and power.

"You took part in something which does not confirm to my worldview, therefore you must suffer for your actions. We could help you but choose not to."


You are 100% wrong if you are talking about me. But I guess you think I am lying.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:18 pm

Jalap wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Are women allowed to demand paternity tests (free of charge)?
What if the father cannot be found? State pays half?


I know there are paternity tests, but I don't know how that is all handled. I'm sure it varies from state to state.

But surely, considering your opinions on abortion, you must be informed (or at least be concerned) about the end to end process, from conception to the point the human is an adult?
And surely we all agree that the cost in money, time and effort for the upbringing of a child should never fall on the shoulders of the mother alone?
If you want to force unwanted children to be born, you must have guarantees written in stone that this child has every opportunity to grow up to a competent, educated, healthy and even happy adult. Even if neither of the parents have the financial means or available time to raise a child.


I'm open to ideas to fix issues like you are talking about, along with many other ideas.
 
bpatus297
Posts: 839
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:21 pm

emperortk wrote:
Jalap wrote:
And surely we all agree that the cost in money, time and effort for the upbringing of a child should never fall on the shoulders of the mother alone?


male abortion opponents have left the chat


Why? I'm not necessarily against abortions, within reason. I am on the fence as to when life begins, but I agree don't necessarily disagree with this decision. Congress needs to either pass a law or leave it to the states. That's the crux of thus decision. Ther were 50 years to codify Roe, but no one did. I am all for making the father pay his share of rasing a child.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:53 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
emperortk wrote:
Jalap wrote:
And surely we all agree that the cost in money, time and effort for the upbringing of a child should never fall on the shoulders of the mother alone?


male abortion opponents have left the chat


Why? I'm not necessarily against abortions, within reason. I am on the fence as to when life begins, but I agree don't necessarily disagree with this decision. Congress needs to either pass a law or leave it to the states. That's the crux of thus decision. Ther were 50 years to codify Roe, but no one did. I am all for making the father pay his share of rasing a child.

Do congress need to clarify whether there should be enforced organ donation too or are you still ignoring that to not highlight intellectual inconsistency?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 971
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:02 am

N867DA wrote:
Young people, do not worry--as boomers and old people who have bought into the Reagan-era Christocapitalism vision pass the baton of power to a new generation, America can bounce back. It just takes some time. Generational shifts happen all the time--even Roe was decided 7-2, by the grandparents of the generation that overturned it. Just live on to see a more rational, free-thinking day.


It’ll be a while.

It’s almost certain the GOP will take House and the Senate in November. Biden won’t be elected in 2024, and the chances are a Republican will take the Presidency. I would say it’s far worse for Democrats if that is DeSantis. He’ll probably make it through two terms, 2025-2033.

Thomas and Alito are probably holding out to early 2025 to retire under a Republican, no sweat. But if DeSantis makes it to early next decade that means Sotamayor and Kagan will be risked having a Republican replace them. It’s possible the court could be 8-1 conservative in the early 2030s.

Right now the Democrats have the White House, Senate and House of Reps, but they will not pass a federal law to overturn this ruling, or expand the court to remove the GOP stacking. The Democrats will never be in such a powerful position to do it for another 20 years. An entire generation will have to pass before there’s any hope of liberalised Abortion law.

And I’d say this is just the start. Both anti abortionists and conservative justices have said their ultimate goal is to confirm that a fetus at the point of conception is a human life and deserves the same “right to life” as a post born human, which would mean a total nationwide ban on any abortion (possibly mother’s health exemption but that’s it) even in blue states like CA and NY.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:37 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Both anti abortionists and conservative justices have said their ultimate goal is to confirm that a fetus at the point of conception is a human life and deserves the same “right to life” as a post born human, which would mean a total nationwide ban on any abortion (possibly mother’s health exemption but that’s it) even in blue states like CA and NY.



From pollster Frank Luntz: Conservatives have been focused on the federal judiciary for decades.

Anecdotally, I’ve seen liberal activists focus more on pronouns or removing statues than on the SCOTUS. https://twitter.com/EWErickson/status/1 ... 0948775940
 
acavpics
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:51 am

What do you guys think today's ruling will have on the midterms this November? Will it be enough to mobilize liberals so that Democrats have a fighting chance of holding onto congress? Or will something more be needed to get the job done this year?
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2273
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:15 am

I am a single male. I have no horse in the race in terms of this case.

But I do not think any government has the right to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body.

Abortion should be a choice between a woman and her doctor.

Marc
 
LabQuest
Posts: 357
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:17 am

acavpics wrote:
What do you guys think today's ruling will have on the midterms this November? Will it be enough to mobilize liberals so that Democrats have a fighting chance of holding onto congress? Or will something more be needed to get the job done this year?


At the end of the day the economy is going to be the driver at the polls. All signs are pointing to a huge Democrat defeat at the midterms.

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