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acavpics
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:21 am

LabQuest wrote:
acavpics wrote:
What do you guys think today's ruling will have on the midterms this November? Will it be enough to mobilize liberals so that Democrats have a fighting chance of holding onto congress? Or will something more be needed to get the job done this year?


At the end of the day the economy is going to be the driver at the polls. All signs are pointing to a huge Democrat defeat at the midterms.


That was until today....
 
LabQuest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:24 am

acavpics wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
acavpics wrote:
What do you guys think today's ruling will have on the midterms this November? Will it be enough to mobilize liberals so that Democrats have a fighting chance of holding onto congress? Or will something more be needed to get the job done this year?


At the end of the day the economy is going to be the driver at the polls. All signs are pointing to a huge Democrat defeat at the midterms.


That was until today....


Meh, we will see but I doubt it. People care more about inflation and gas prices than abortion. Give it two weeks and see what people are still taking about at work. I'll bet its not abortion rights.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:34 am

Wow, I'm a pretty proud American but I am not today. SCOTUS got it so wrong. And Alito injected his opinion on "fetushood"... He and the others have disgraced the US court system and process today.

Just a bad day for justice in the USA.

Tugg
 
acavpics
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:46 am

LabQuest wrote:
acavpics wrote:
LabQuest wrote:

At the end of the day the economy is going to be the driver at the polls. All signs are pointing to a huge Democrat defeat at the midterms.


That was until today....


Meh, we will see but I doubt it. People care more about inflation and gas prices than abortion. Give it two weeks and see what people are still taking about at work. I'll bet its not abortion rights.


I have this feeling at the back of my head that this, combined with gun violence are just the beginning of the turning of the tides before the midterms. I know that inflation and gas prices are still sky high, but there is a super optimistic thought at the back of my head that someone somewhere will find solutions for those just enough. That combined with a galvanized base from guns, abortion, etc will be enough for Dems to win in the midterms.

Again, that is just a thought in my head.

Let's just see what the next 4 months bring us. Whatever happens, I will be voting D down the ballot in November.
 
TriJets
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:49 am

LabQuest wrote:
acavpics wrote:
What do you guys think today's ruling will have on the midterms this November? Will it be enough to mobilize liberals so that Democrats have a fighting chance of holding onto congress? Or will something more be needed to get the job done this year?


At the end of the day the economy is going to be the driver at the polls. All signs are pointing to a huge Democrat defeat at the midterms.


Yeah I think the economy is going to drive the midterms, and unfortunately I don't see inflation subsiding before November. The GOP is going to clean up, which is a bit scary IMO.
 
N867DA
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:11 am

The economy is going to drive the midterms. I suspect eventually abortion will stop being an issue much the way liquor is not an issue. Catholics say hi in liquor stores; Baptists don't. Enough Republicans will have abortions that people will drop the charade and ruby red states will make changes. Even prohibition lasted ten years; we'll see how many Boeberts (2 time abortion champ) come out of the Far Right closet.

Ultimately, this decision is not what the majority of the country wanted. That is fact. In fact, most of the country is not as right wing as the GOP. The distribution of people lends to far more power to the GOP and their fair right causes. Eventually that will correct itself, through ballots, or through force.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:18 am

acavpics wrote:
LabQuest wrote:
acavpics wrote:
What do you guys think today's ruling will have on the midterms this November? Will it be enough to mobilize liberals so that Democrats have a fighting chance of holding onto congress? Or will something more be needed to get the job done this year?


At the end of the day the economy is going to be the driver at the polls. All signs are pointing to a huge Democrat defeat at the midterms.


That was until today....


Today the Democrats control the Senate, House and White House. And that government allowed Roe vs Wade to be overturned. So what is the point in voting D in November? They won’t pass a law upholding reproductive rights just to be struck down by Trump’s stacked court anyway?

The current Democrats need to be replaced. Get rid of fossils like Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer and Biden, and get people more reflective of the nation they want to lead. Most D congresspeople couldn’t care about reproductive rights as they are far beyond child bearing age.
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:21 am

N867DA wrote:
Ultimately, this decision is not what the majority of the country wanted. That is fact. In fact, most of the country is not as right wing as the GOP. The distribution of people lends to far more power to the GOP and their fair right causes. Eventually that will correct itself, through ballots, or through force.


I don’t think it will. Republicans will always have an advantage in US elections, in the Senate due to the larger number of lesser populated red states. The electoral college too, and when the GOP get into power in a swing state they gerrymander much better than the Democrats. Plus all the other work denying urban communities the right to vote. So whilst the majority of the country wants abortion rights the majority of the country that gets to vote doesn’t.

The Democrats are still playing politics like it’s last century. They need to realise their opponent is far nastier than them and they need to get nasty too.
 
LabQuest
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:21 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
acavpics wrote:
LabQuest wrote:

At the end of the day the economy is going to be the driver at the polls. All signs are pointing to a huge Democrat defeat at the midterms.


That was until today....


Today the Democrats control the Senate, House and White House. And that government allowed Roe vs Wade to be overturned. So what is the point in voting D in November? They won’t pass a law upholding reproductive rights just to be struck down by Trump’s stacked court anyway?

The current Democrats need to be replaced. Get rid of fossils like Pelosi, Schumer and Biden, and get people more reflective of the nation they want to lead. Most D congresspeople couldn’t care about reproductive rights as they are far beyond child bearing age.


Even if the leadership was in their 30-40's they would never overcome the filibuster.
 
N867DA
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:44 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
N867DA wrote:
Ultimately, this decision is not what the majority of the country wanted. That is fact. In fact, most of the country is not as right wing as the GOP. The distribution of people lends to far more power to the GOP and their fair right causes. Eventually that will correct itself, through ballots, or through force.


I don’t think it will. Republicans will always have an advantage in US elections, in the Senate due to the larger number of lesser populated red states. The electoral college too, and when the GOP get into power in a swing state they gerrymander much better than the Democrats. Plus all the other work denying urban communities the right to vote. So whilst the majority of the country wants abortion rights the majority of the country that gets to vote doesn’t.

The Democrats are still playing politics like it’s last century. They need to realise their opponent is far nastier than them and they need to get nasty too.


100% this. We've had Republicans say flat out that the opposition is the enemy of the people, but Democrats always stop short.

And the reason is twofold: Democrats, in general are an effete, rudderless bunch. There is a wishywashy coalition of neoliberals, old-school Republicans, progressives, Democratic Socialists, progressives, and the "woke" crowd. Republicans have been much better at channeling their Christocapitalist vision for America and their hard work is paying off. So the 'liberals' have no vision. They need to drop the equality-nuance mantra and start using the rhetoric, tone, and emotional charges Republicans have perfected. Nothing wrong with saying Amy Coney Barrett is an enemy of the American people.

The other reason is the systemic issues that you called out--super red states get a disproportionately strong voice in the country, and thanks to GOP policies they are increasingly out of touch with how most Americans live their lives. The game is, ironically, rigged against the typical American--one who is for abortion rights, for gay marriage, for campaign finance regulations, for lower taxes and less regulation, but with a strong safety net. Seeing this game through leads to mass calamity to unify the country, or a peaceful allowance for states to stop supporting one another and for them to go their separate ways.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:44 am

af773atmsp wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Please stay on topic and engage respectfully. Some of the comments are getting way too personal, and way too harsh. This is an emotionally charged subject, but attacking "the other side" isn't going to accomplish anything.

✈️ atcsundevil


You’re right and I admit that I am a bit charged up so please pardon me.

You bring up a good point, however. If, at this point, attacking the other side won’t accomplish anything, are you saying rational discussion will? I appreciate the sentiment but do you think, after moderating these forums, that rational discussion works?


It's not like this forum is going to solve this issue whether it's rational discussion or mud slinging. We're not the Supreme Court, Congress, or anyone with political power (unless there's members here who are politicians).

Will rational discussion accomplish anything? I doubt it, since it seems like nearly, if not everyone here has already chosen a side and will stick with it. On one side it's those (including me) defending women's rights and separating church and state as is law, and the other side is trying to defend this decision because it seems they know what's best for women.

No discussion here is going to change things. My post was just intended to remind everyone that we do have rules here, and that we expect everyone to maintain a degree of respect. We all recognize that this is a very emotionally charged subject, but that's not an excuse for setting aside our basic rules of decorum. If someone wants to have an unfettered rant at the opposition, there are plenty of sites out there where that is acceptable...we just aren't one of them. Let's not forget that this site is called "Airliners".
 
emperortk
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:07 am

N867DA wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
N867DA wrote:
Ultimately, this decision is not what the majority of the country wanted. That is fact. In fact, most of the country is not as right wing as the GOP. The distribution of people lends to far more power to the GOP and their fair right causes. Eventually that will correct itself, through ballots, or through force.


I don’t think it will. Republicans will always have an advantage in US elections, in the Senate due to the larger number of lesser populated red states. The electoral college too, and when the GOP get into power in a swing state they gerrymander much better than the Democrats. Plus all the other work denying urban communities the right to vote. So whilst the majority of the country wants abortion rights the majority of the country that gets to vote doesn’t.

The Democrats are still playing politics like it’s last century. They need to realise their opponent is far nastier than them and they need to get nasty too.


100% this. We've had Republicans say flat out that the opposition is the enemy of the people, but Democrats always stop short.


Not true. Democratic leaders are writing a strongly worded letter to the manager right now. They're going to mail it on the way to their next corporate fundraiser. Insiders say they're even considering not closing the letter with "warmest regards."
 
ltbewr
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:05 am

I know that many have hard feelings, anger, distress and disfavor the decision of the US Supreme Court Friday that overturned Roe v. Wade; Despite how the court ruled, we have to recognize their decision is legally binding, and it will be impossible for reverse the restrictions on abortion many states have as well as Congress doing a law to reverse the Court's decision, Those that object to the decision must not protest their objections in a way that fall into the hands of the Conservatives and Right. Don't harass the Justices as their residences. Do not do stupid stunts like someone did today climbing onto a bridge in the DC area. Don't do dumb stuff that will just feed Fox News and conservative trolls and hurt further damage the progressive/liberal politicians. Support organizations to help women get legal abortions.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:06 am

flipdewaf wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
emperortk wrote:

male abortion opponents have left the chat


Why? I'm not necessarily against abortions, within reason. I am on the fence as to when life begins, but I agree don't necessarily disagree with this decision. Congress needs to either pass a law or leave it to the states. That's the crux of thus decision. Ther were 50 years to codify Roe, but no one did. I am all for making the father pay his share of rasing a child.

Do congress need to clarify whether there should be enforced organ donation too or are you still ignoring that to not highlight intellectual inconsistency?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For the last time, organ donation and abortion are not the same.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:17 am

The one good (sad) thing about this is that it will be overturned in 5-10 years. I just feel sorry for the people whose lives this ruling will affect badly.

Tugg
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:24 am

atcsundevil wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:

You’re right and I admit that I am a bit charged up so please pardon me.

You bring up a good point, however. If, at this point, attacking the other side won’t accomplish anything, are you saying rational discussion will? I appreciate the sentiment but do you think, after moderating these forums, that rational discussion works?


It's not like this forum is going to solve this issue whether it's rational discussion or mud slinging. We're not the Supreme Court, Congress, or anyone with political power (unless there's members here who are politicians).

Will rational discussion accomplish anything? I doubt it, since it seems like nearly, if not everyone here has already chosen a side and will stick with it. On one side it's those (including me) defending women's rights and separating church and state as is law, and the other side is trying to defend this decision because it seems they know what's best for women.

No discussion here is going to change things. My post was just intended to remind everyone that we do have rules here, and that we expect everyone to maintain a degree of respect. We all recognize that this is a very emotionally charged subject, but that's not an excuse for setting aside our basic rules of decorum. If someone wants to have an unfettered rant at the opposition, there are plenty of sites out there where that is acceptable...we just aren't one of them. Let's not forget that this site is called "Airliners".


Roger that good sir! I appreciate the response and I’ll legit do my best to maintain an appropriate level of decorum.

I must admit, it can be difficult but no doubt that you are correct.

Regards and I appreciate that you don’t have a particularly easy job in this case.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:48 am

So, in an effort to try to understand this, I know a christian guy here in SF and I asked him. He explained that christian folks believe that if they’re aware of a sin and they don’t do anything about it, apparently they’re a sinner too. From there, they think that when you die, you go to a place w poor AC and mean folks.

Is that what this is all about and why they often seem like they care about others private lives?
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:00 am

Tugger wrote:
The one good (sad) thing about this is that it will be overturned in 5-10 years. I just feel sorry for the people whose lives this ruling will affect badly.

Tugg


No it won't.

The Supreme Court is going to be conservative for a generation. Kavanaugh, Coney Barret and Gorsuch are the youngest. There was a reason they were put there. Alito and C Thomas are the next to go, but can probably hold onto 2025. Then Sotamayor and Kagan are next, and if a Republican gets the WH between 2025-2033 Sotamayor will have to hold out until age 80. Potentially Ketani Jackson may be the only non conservative on the court in the early 2030s.

With the rigged electoral system the Democrats will never hold a filibuster proof Senate majority. With their present inept leadership they will almost certainly lose the House. They are losing Governorships and Legislatures across the nation at an alarming rate.

What an utter joke abortion rights get overturned with a Democrat majority in the House Senate and White House. Show how inept they are.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:05 am

ltbewr wrote:
Don't do dumb stuff that will just feed Fox News and conservative trolls and hurt further damage the progressive/liberal politicians. Support organizations to help women get legal abortions.


OK by now you must have realised that despite how nice and non partisan Democrats try to be the right will always be on the offensive. Democrats are weak puppy dogs and Republicans pitbulls. They are going to label you "baby murdering communist traitors" in EVERY instance. To them even Biden, a fairly conservative Democrat, is labelled a "Marxist extremist".

In order to get your reproductive rights back you are not going to have to play nice. It's time to fight hard.

And whilst you say go out and support organizations that help women get legal abortions, red states are passing laws to criminalise helping a woman to go to a blue state and get an abortion. Pay for a flight, drive them across state lines, give them a day off work to get a procedure done? You risk being thrown in prison.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:11 am

[threeid][/threeid]
sierrakilo44 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Don't do dumb stuff that will just feed Fox News and conservative trolls and hurt further damage the progressive/liberal politicians. Support organizations to help women get legal abortions.


OK by now you must have realised that despite how nice and non partisan Democrats try to be the right will always be on the offensive. Democrats are weak puppy dogs and Republicans pitbulls. They are going to label you "baby murdering communist traitors" in EVERY instance. To them even Biden, a fairly conservative Democrat, is labelled a "Marxist extremist".

In order to get your reproductive rights back you are not going to have to play nice. It's time to fight hard.

And whilst you say go out and support organizations that help women get legal abortions, red states are passing laws to criminalise helping a woman to go to a blue state and get an abortion. Pay for a flight, drive them across state lines, give them a day off work to get a procedure done? You risk being thrown in prison.


At this point in the undemocratic USA, it will only be once women and people assisting them start going to prison for supporting reproductive freedom and choice, that real support for legislative support in Gilead-like states will happen.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:21 am

Kent350787 wrote:

At this point in the undemocratic USA, it will only be once women and people assisting them start going to prison for supporting reproductive freedom and choice, that real support for legislative support in Gilead-like states will happen.



I thought after 20 5 year olds were gunned down at Sandy Hook the nation would finally do something about guns. The complete opposite happened. So I think it's probable that if we start seeing women and helpers being thrown in prison for crossing a state line to get an abortion I think Fox News and Republicans would be over the moon, they would say those "baby killers" are finally getting what they deserve.

An as the ruling alluded to same sex marrige, LGBT rights, contraception, anti discrimination laws are next in the firing line. The United States of Gilead is here.
 
FGITD
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:23 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:

In order to get your reproductive rights back you are not going to have to play nice. It's time to fight hard.


But look at what taking the moral high ground has won! Loss of rights, an ineffective government, and a country divided beyond repair. Oh and the other side still calls them commie socialist groomers.

And there was that great video of some house dems singing God Bless America on the steps of Congress today. Winning hearts and minds. So I’m sure change is a coming!

I’ve always lived in the states that give more than they take. Personally I’m getting pretty tired of subsidizing states that insist on dragging the rest of us down with them.
 
chimborazo
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:52 am

Jalap wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Parasite: A parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host organism and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. A fetus is a parasite by the medical definition. Nevermind that the term has been given a larger emotional connotation, but plenty of parasites exist without being an entirely negative relationship with the host.


I know what the definition of parasite is. However, rape and incest aside, the women had a part in the actions that made the fetus. Plus, the use of the term parasite is just to dehumanize the fetus and is being used inflammatory.

Somebody else had a part as well.
What are regulations for the father?
I do suppose the father is legally obliged to take care of 50% of the costs and efforts of upbringing the baby?
Question because I honestly have no idea about the rights and duties of the biological father.


In the states that have immediately reintroduced anti-abortion, the father should lovingly take care of his sister’s new baby.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:15 am

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Why? I'm not necessarily against abortions, within reason. I am on the fence as to when life begins, but I agree don't necessarily disagree with this decision. Congress needs to either pass a law or leave it to the states. That's the crux of thus decision. Ther were 50 years to codify Roe, but no one did. I am all for making the father pay his share of rasing a child.

Do congress need to clarify whether there should be enforced organ donation too or are you still ignoring that to not highlight intellectual inconsistency?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For the last time, organ donation and abortion are not the same.

And for the last time from me (I hope)I know they are not but then that is not what I wrote so….

If you genuinely want it to be the last time then ACTUALLY read what I stated.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:03 am

Land of the free? Not anymore. SCOTUS just proved that they are no better the Talibans which George W Bush went to war against. America is imo on the verge of becoming a Christian caliphate (if/when) GOP gets total control of WH and Capitol hill. While a caliphate is defined as a government or institutionen ruling based on Islamic believes I see no real difference between the two. Both use "magic books" (made up bogus fairy tales) to control women and the population in general.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:27 am

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Land of the free? Not anymore. SCOTUS just proved that they are no better the Talibans which George W Bush went to war against. America is imo on the verge of becoming a Christian caliphate (if/when) GOP gets total control of WH and Capitol hill. While a caliphate is defined as a government or institutionen ruling based on Islamic believes I see no real difference between the two. Both use "magic books" (made up bogus fairy tales) to control women and the population in general.


What's interesting about this, erm, claim of yours is that if you bothered to read the decision, you'd find that the opinions for the majority were all based solely in the law itself and if it were properly applied, whereas the dissenting opinions really didn't touch on anything about Roe other than claiming it was settled law, other than unusually political language about the poor and minorities being hardest hit by the majority's opinion. As written by the majority, the Constitution must remain neutral on this rather than advocating positions based on presumption of which grievance group will be impacted most severely.
 
CometII
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:44 am

I don't understand the fixation of conservatives on States rights, since it conflicts with what their claimed ideologies are.

Don't true conservatives want decisions made at the local level? So why should devolution stop at the state level? Just because back in revolutionary days this idea was fashionable doesn't mean it is appropriate today for the purposes of actual REAL devolution of powers from Federal levels. In the 1700s most states where no bigger than an average county today, or even a small county, population wise.

Today many states are as diverse and populated as entire nations, with huge differences between areas of certain states (North vs South Florida, NYC ws Upstate, Plains vs Appalachian North Carolina, DC vs rest of Virginia). So, why should a far away state capital keep the power? Isn't it time for counties to make these kinds of decisions, if the idea of local control is really the driving force behind pushing the federal government out?
 
emperortk
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:00 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Land of the free? Not anymore. SCOTUS just proved that they are no better the Talibans which George W Bush went to war against. America is imo on the verge of becoming a Christian caliphate (if/when) GOP gets total control of WH and Capitol hill. While a caliphate is defined as a government or institutionen ruling based on Islamic believes I see no real difference between the two. Both use "magic books" (made up bogus fairy tales) to control women and the population in general.


What's interesting about this, erm, claim of yours is that if you bothered to read the decision, you'd find that the opinions for the majority were all based solely in the law itself and if it were properly applied, whereas the dissenting opinions really didn't touch on anything about Roe other than claiming it was settled law, other than unusually political language about the poor and minorities being hardest hit by the majority's opinion. As written by the majority, the Constitution must remain neutral on this rather than advocating positions based on presumption of which grievance group will be impacted most severely.


I know right! It's almost like the dissenting opinion is written as if there were a 14th amendment guaranteeing equal protection before the law. Imagine if laws weren't supposed to disproportionately affect specific groups!
 
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casinterest
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:02 pm

CometII wrote:
I don't understand the fixation of conservatives on States rights, since it conflicts with what their claimed ideologies are.

Don't true conservatives want decisions made at the local level? So why should devolution stop at the state level? Just because back in revolutionary days this idea was fashionable doesn't mean it is appropriate today for the purposes of actual REAL devolution of powers from Federal levels. In the 1700s most states where no bigger than an average county today, or even a small county, population wise.

Today many states are as diverse and populated as entire nations, with huge differences between areas of certain states (North vs South Florida, NYC ws Upstate, Plains vs Appalachian North Carolina, DC vs rest of Virginia). So, why should a far away state capital keep the power? Isn't it time for counties to make these kinds of decisions, if the idea of local control is really the driving force behind pushing the federal government out?


The Conservatives are grasping to power among the uneducated, racist, poor, and rural America. The educate, diverse , wealthy, and urban majority are the wave of the future.
They want states rights to claim out their fiefdoms for security in a world. where their demographics will shrink. They can keep their GOP red meat base as ignorant as they want, but those that want more will have to move on to better states. This is where the decision was wrong, as it criminalized being a woman in many states. So much for equal under the law.

The plus side of it though is that this decision will never be seen as irreversible as 3 of the judges were appointed by a person that tried the overthrow the US government, and were confirmed by members of the senate that attempted to do the same.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:10 pm

In France where abortion is not only legal but free, paid for by our universal healthcare system, this has still caused some reactions now, including from the president. A constitutional change will be put in the works to add the right to abortion to the French constitution, instead of it being just a law.

Back to the US : in anti-choice states, can you abandon newborns to the state, no strings attached ?

N867DA wrote:
Frankly, I think this sets the bar such that states that ban abortion are responsible for total healthcare for the fetus--even making sure the woman eats a nutritious diet, does not over-exert or place any strain on the body, and has time off work without worrying about finances to make sure the fetus is healthy and develops into an actual human being. The mother should not be allowed near alcohol, caffeine, or smoking at all.


Rights groups should right now find a woman in these states to test this. One who secretly wants the kid but will pretend to want an abortion because she's too poor, will probably lose her job because of the pregnancy, etc.
 
emperortk
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:34 pm

Aesma wrote:
Back to the US : in anti-choice states, can you abandon newborns to the state, no strings attached ?


The specifics vary from state to state, but in general, yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-haven_law
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:40 pm

I think we need to develop a procedure whereby the umbilical chord is simply clamped or cut. The foetus isn’t killed it is just denied the forcible removal of the mothers nutrients against her will.

Fred


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SEAorPWM
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:12 pm

CometII wrote:
I don't understand the fixation of conservatives on States rights, since it conflicts with what their claimed ideologies are.

Don't true conservatives want decisions made at the local level? So why should devolution stop at the state level? Just because back in revolutionary days this idea was fashionable doesn't mean it is appropriate today for the purposes of actual REAL devolution of powers from Federal levels. In the 1700s most states where no bigger than an average county today, or even a small county, population wise.

Today many states are as diverse and populated as entire nations, with huge differences between areas of certain states (North vs South Florida, NYC ws Upstate, Plains vs Appalachian North Carolina, DC vs rest of Virginia). So, why should a far away state capital keep the power? Isn't it time for counties to make these kinds of decisions, if the idea of local control is really the driving force behind pushing the federal government out?


Then you have things like DOMA ("Defense" of Marriage) that confirm the Christofacist Right's hypocrisy on this matter 100%. :liar:
 
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Aesma
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:28 pm

Once the GOP loses some key states due to shifting demographics I'm sure they'll advocate for "county's rights" or something. It won't be easy though, and leaving cities to go live in the boonies won't be either.
 
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seb146
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:13 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Whatever happened to "states' rights" and "settled law"? I know, this is far right wing extremists legislating from the bench to turn this into a "christian" theocracy. All because heterosexual white "christian" men demand more protections than everyone else. Like before.


This just pushed the issue back to the states. I think a women and black man voted for this too.


They overturned settled law. Three justices said, under oath, they would not do that. But, this is good news because, when "liberals" are seated, Heller can be overturned. There is precident.
 
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c933103
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:18 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
I think we need to develop a procedure whereby the umbilical chord is simply clamped or cut. The foetus isn’t killed it is just denied the forcible removal of the mothers nutrients against her will.

Fred


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Isn't there already abortion pills that cannot be made illegal?
 
flipdewaf
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Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:28 pm

c933103 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I think we need to develop a procedure whereby the umbilical chord is simply clamped or cut. The foetus isn’t killed it is just denied the forcible removal of the mothers nutrients against her will.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Isn't there already abortion pills that cannot be made illegal?

In what sense “cannot be made illegal”? Laws are made by men and can be undone by men.

Surely the whole point of this thread was that abortion CAN be made illegal. If so wished by a state?

Fred


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CaptHadley
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:36 pm

Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:35 pm

c933103 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I think we need to develop a procedure whereby the umbilical chord is simply clamped or cut. The foetus isn’t killed it is just denied the forcible removal of the mothers nutrients against her will.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Isn't there already abortion pills that cannot be made illegal?


It's not an abortion pill, it's a contraceptive pill.
 
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c933103
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:53 pm

CaptHadley wrote:
c933103 wrote:

Isn't there already abortion pills that cannot be made illegal?


It's not an abortion pill, it's a contraceptive pill.

I mean this thing https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn ... rtion-pill which is said to be effective until 11 weeks into pregnancy,

flipdewaf wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Isn't there already abortion pills that cannot be made illegal?

In what sense “cannot be made illegal”? Laws are made by men and can be undone by men.

Surely the whole point of this thread was that abortion CAN be made illegal. If so wished by a state?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I mean, abortion pills are FDA-approved, and with FDA being a federal agency, that should mean state government cannot override them?
But according to https://time.com/6191270/abortion-pills ... k-garland/ , it seems like this matter have not been determined yet, and thus my prior statement might be incorrect.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:00 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Don't do dumb stuff that will just feed Fox News and conservative trolls and hurt further damage the progressive/liberal politicians. Support organizations to help women get legal abortions.


OK by now you must have realised that despite how nice and non partisan Democrats try to be the right will always be on the offensive. Democrats are weak puppy dogs and Republicans pitbulls. They are going to label you "baby murdering communist traitors" in EVERY instance. To them even Biden, a fairly conservative Democrat, is labelled a "Marxist extremist".

In order to get your reproductive rights back you are not going to have to play nice. It's time to fight hard.

And whilst you say go out and support organizations that help women get legal abortions, red states are passing laws to criminalise helping a woman to go to a blue state and get an abortion. Pay for a flight, drive them across state lines, give them a day off work to get a procedure done? You risk being thrown in prison.


Any law that criminalize a women going to another state for an abortion will be struck down.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4524
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:03 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Don't do dumb stuff that will just feed Fox News and conservative trolls and hurt further damage the progressive/liberal politicians. Support organizations to help women get legal abortions.


OK by now you must have realised that despite how nice and non partisan Democrats try to be the right will always be on the offensive. Democrats are weak puppy dogs and Republicans pitbulls. They are going to label you "baby murdering communist traitors" in EVERY instance. To them even Biden, a fairly conservative Democrat, is labelled a "Marxist extremist".

In order to get your reproductive rights back you are not going to have to play nice. It's time to fight hard.

And whilst you say go out and support organizations that help women get legal abortions, red states are passing laws to criminalise helping a woman to go to a blue state and get an abortion. Pay for a flight, drive them across state lines, give them a day off work to get a procedure done? You risk being thrown in prison.


Any law that criminalize a women going to another state for an abortion will be struck down.

Do you think it would be similar for enforced organ donation?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
bpatus297
Posts: 823
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:06 pm

Aesma wrote:
In France where abortion is not only legal but free, paid for by our universal healthcare system, this has still caused some reactions now, including from the president. A constitutional change will be put in the works to add the right to abortion to the French constitution, instead of it being just a law.

Back to the US : in anti-choice states, can you abandon newborns to the state, no strings attached ?

N867DA wrote:
Frankly, I think this sets the bar such that states that ban abortion are responsible for total healthcare for the fetus--even making sure the woman eats a nutritious diet, does not over-exert or place any strain on the body, and has time off work without worrying about finances to make sure the fetus is healthy and develops into an actual human being. The mother should not be allowed near alcohol, caffeine, or smoking at all.


Rights groups should right now find a woman in these states to test this. One who secretly wants the kid but will pretend to want an abortion because she's too poor, will probably lose her job because of the pregnancy, etc.


Yes, in most states (don't know the laws in all states), you can drop a new born off at a police, fire station, or hospital before a certain age. No questions asked. For clarification, Congress and/or the States can amend the constitution or pass a law regarding abortion.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:12 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
c933103 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I think we need to develop a procedure whereby the umbilical chord is simply clamped or cut. The foetus isn’t killed it is just denied the forcible removal of the mothers nutrients against her will.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Isn't there already abortion pills that cannot be made illegal?

In what sense “cannot be made illegal”? Laws are made by men and can be undone by men.

Surely the whole point of this thread was that abortion CAN be made illegal. If so wished by a state?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The SCOTUS didn't make abortion illegal. Specific states are doing that. If you want that changed, pressure needs to be applied in those states, or Congress needs to pass a federal law.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:09 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
c933103 wrote:

Isn't there already abortion pills that cannot be made illegal?

In what sense “cannot be made illegal”? Laws are made by men and can be undone by men.

Surely the whole point of this thread was that abortion CAN be made illegal. If so wished by a state?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The SCOTUS didn't make abortion illegal. Specific states are doing that. If you want that changed, pressure needs to be applied in those states, or Congress needs to pass a federal law.

Exactly, SCOTUS simply threw the child to the wolves, it is the wolves that did the killing and therefore no concern of SCOTUS.

The constitution also makes no mention of forced blood donation to keep innocent people alive so states can also sanction that, what’s your opinion on that?

Fred


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Kiwirob
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:14 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Land of the free? Not anymore. SCOTUS just proved that they are no better the Talibans which George W Bush went to war against. America is imo on the verge of becoming a Christian caliphate (if/when) GOP gets total control of WH and Capitol hill. While a caliphate is defined as a government or institutionen ruling based on Islamic believes I see no real difference between the two. Both use "magic books" (made up bogus fairy tales) to control women and the population in general.


What's interesting about this, erm, claim of yours is that if you bothered to read the decision, you'd find that the opinions for the majority were all based solely in the law itself and if it were properly applied, whereas the dissenting opinions really didn't touch on anything about Roe other than claiming it was settled law, other than unusually political language about the poor and minorities being hardest hit by the majority's opinion. As written by the majority, the Constitution must remain neutral on this rather than advocating positions based on presumption of which grievance group will be impacted most severely.


You can wrap it up in as much legalise as you like but you, I and everyone else knows this is routed in the deeply religious values of 5 of the 9 judges.
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:18 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
Don't do dumb stuff that will just feed Fox News and conservative trolls and hurt further damage the progressive/liberal politicians. Support organizations to help women get legal abortions.


OK by now you must have realised that despite how nice and non partisan Democrats try to be the right will always be on the offensive. Democrats are weak puppy dogs and Republicans pitbulls. They are going to label you "baby murdering communist traitors" in EVERY instance. To them even Biden, a fairly conservative Democrat, is labelled a "Marxist extremist".

In order to get your reproductive rights back you are not going to have to play nice. It's time to fight hard.

And whilst you say go out and support organizations that help women get legal abortions, red states are passing laws to criminalise helping a woman to go to a blue state and get an abortion. Pay for a flight, drive them across state lines, give them a day off work to get a procedure done? You risk being thrown in prison.


Any law that criminalize a women going to another state for an abortion will be struck down.


By this Supreme Court? You’re having a laugh t aren’t you??
 
bpatus297
Posts: 823
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:41 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

OK by now you must have realised that despite how nice and non partisan Democrats try to be the right will always be on the offensive. Democrats are weak puppy dogs and Republicans pitbulls. They are going to label you "baby murdering communist traitors" in EVERY instance. To them even Biden, a fairly conservative Democrat, is labelled a "Marxist extremist".

In order to get your reproductive rights back you are not going to have to play nice. It's time to fight hard.

And whilst you say go out and support organizations that help women get legal abortions, red states are passing laws to criminalise helping a woman to go to a blue state and get an abortion. Pay for a flight, drive them across state lines, give them a day off work to get a procedure done? You risk being thrown in prison.


Any law that criminalize a women going to another state for an abortion will be struck down.


By this Supreme Court? You’re having a laugh t aren’t you??


No, there is nothing funny about any of this.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4524
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:43 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Any law that criminalize a women going to another state for an abortion will be struck down.


By this Supreme Court? You’re having a laugh t aren’t you??


No, there is nothing funny about any of this.

You’re right. It won’t be long before you get a letter through telling you that you have been selected to have your kidney removed to help an innocent life in need and you will have no recourse, a terrible scenario.

Fred


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Aesma
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:30 pm

I guess US prisons were going empty so they had to put some women in there.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:32 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
What a shitfest of a ruling.

The majority struck down Roe v. Wade because abortion is not a right mentioned in the constitution. Carrying weapons for self-defense isn't, either. The 2nd Amendment clearly says "A well regulated militia..."

As is the concept of "monetary donations = speech".

Or that companies have 1st Amendment rights.

Newark727 wrote:
I'm feeling some faint historical echoes of the Dred Scott decision - the Supreme Court steps in to offer a broad ruling on a polarizing issue that the other branches of government can't reach a consensus on, but because it gives one side everything and the other side nothing, it can't serve as the final word and only lengthens and worsens the controversy.


Dred Scott basically put the slavery question to the states, isn't it?


You need to look up what "well regulated milita" meant in the late 1700s.


I did, and it meant serious military training, enabling the individual to take part in military maneuvers. Certainly no Gravy SEALs, or people buying guns for their own self defense.

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