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SEAorPWM
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:04 pm

Aesma wrote:
I guess US prisons were going empty so they had to put some women in there.


Probably from many states finally taking 16 and 17 year olds charged with nonviolent crimes out of the adult population... like most other First World nations do :stirthepot:
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:05 am

Kiwirob wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Land of the free? Not anymore. SCOTUS just proved that they are no better the Talibans which George W Bush went to war against. America is imo on the verge of becoming a Christian caliphate (if/when) GOP gets total control of WH and Capitol hill. While a caliphate is defined as a government or institutionen ruling based on Islamic believes I see no real difference between the two. Both use "magic books" (made up bogus fairy tales) to control women and the population in general.


What's interesting about this, erm, claim of yours is that if you bothered to read the decision, you'd find that the opinions for the majority were all based solely in the law itself and if it were properly applied, whereas the dissenting opinions really didn't touch on anything about Roe other than claiming it was settled law, other than unusually political language about the poor and minorities being hardest hit by the majority's opinion. As written by the majority, the Constitution must remain neutral on this rather than advocating positions based on presumption of which grievance group will be impacted most severely.


You can wrap it up in as much legalise as you like but you, I and everyone else knows this is routed in the deeply religious values of 5 of the 9 judges.


It’s gangsterism. And they say organized crime is dead. I think it is almost romantic how long Alito had to plan decades of deception and perjury in order to deliver this evil.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:23 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Could states that bam abortion also ban birth control?

The US pushes itself further and further away from its peers, it’s just nuts how this is even an issue in the 2020’s.


There's not enough political support to pass such legislation even in the reddest states.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:50 am

kaitak wrote:
And on top of that you can see Thomas's other suggestion that the same attention will also be given to other recent rulings, such as Obergefell (same sex marriage) and even rulings on contraception. All of this goes back, I think to whether the Constitution is to be interpreted as at the date of its creation (1787), or should be interpreted in such a way that it grows/evolves with the society it serves. There was, of course, no abortion in 1787; it probably wasn't even heard. Slavery was, of course, so I don't really buy that argument. The USSC is basically saying that the law should be interpreted in a way that it was intended in 1787 - by rich, white, slave-owning men. That's not really a good basis for a modern society to develop. And with at least 20 states only itching to place all kinds of restrictions on abortion, they had to know which way States would rule on this, but they simply DIDN'T CARE.

So, we only await other cases to be brought in response to Thomas's invitation. And of course, they will. And the upshot of this? You will end up with effectively a two-speed society; a rump of very restrictive states on social issues (Red states) and the more liberal (Blue) states. And you have to wonder what this means for American society, down the road? Some might say, "well, it's always been like this, since the civil war", but it can't be good for the cohesion of a country if you have a group of states which are very restrictive when it comes to freedom and another group, which are not. I think we're seeing a very dangerous precedent here.


There are two methods of proposing constitutional amendments and two ways to ratify them. None of them involves the US Supreme Court or the President of the United States. I really don't see support strong enough to pass a constitutional amendment for or against abortion on demand at the federal level.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:19 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Could states that bam abortion also ban birth control?

The US pushes itself further and further away from its peers, it’s just nuts how this is even an issue in the 2020’s.


There's not enough political support to pass such legislation even in the reddest states.


Might want to read up a bit more……

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... th-control
 
N867DA
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:25 am

bpatus297 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
In France where abortion is not only legal but free, paid for by our universal healthcare system, this has still caused some reactions now, including from the president. A constitutional change will be put in the works to add the right to abortion to the French constitution, instead of it being just a law.

Back to the US : in anti-choice states, can you abandon newborns to the state, no strings attached ?

N867DA wrote:
Frankly, I think this sets the bar such that states that ban abortion are responsible for total healthcare for the fetus--even making sure the woman eats a nutritious diet, does not over-exert or place any strain on the body, and has time off work without worrying about finances to make sure the fetus is healthy and develops into an actual human being. The mother should not be allowed near alcohol, caffeine, or smoking at all.


Rights groups should right now find a woman in these states to test this. One who secretly wants the kid but will pretend to want an abortion because she's too poor, will probably lose her job because of the pregnancy, etc.


Yes, in most states (don't know the laws in all states), you can drop a new born off at a police, fire station, or hospital before a certain age. No questions asked. For clarification, Congress and/or the States can amend the constitution or pass a law regarding abortion.


Being pregnant for nine months is an immense cost to a person, especially if she didn't even want to kid. Is the government going to police what women who are pregnant do with their bodies? Tennessee may ban abortion, but it doesn't ban pregnant women from smoking a pack of Marlboros a day, eating sushi every meal, and polishing off a case of beer every night. Is that OK?
 
PPVRA
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:30 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Could states that bam abortion also ban birth control?

The US pushes itself further and further away from its peers, it’s just nuts how this is even an issue in the 2020’s.


There's not enough political support to pass such legislation even in the reddest states.


Might want to read up a bit more……

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... th-control


The moment a girl is hauled away by cops to prison over birth control, or an abortion, it is GAME OVER for the anti-abortion movement. The vast majority of politicians will lose reelection if they stand in the way of moderating their laws.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:08 am

PPVRA wrote:

The moment a girl is hauled away by cops to prison over birth control, or an abortion, it is GAME OVER for the anti-abortion movement. The vast majority of politicians will lose reelection if they stand in the way of moderating their laws.


How are the vast majority of the going to lose re-election after they’ve rigged the electoral system to ensure they cannot be voted out?
 
Newark727
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:12 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

The moment a girl is hauled away by cops to prison over birth control, or an abortion, it is GAME OVER for the anti-abortion movement. The vast majority of politicians will lose reelection if they stand in the way of moderating their laws.


How are the vast majority of the going to lose re-election after they’ve rigged the electoral system to ensure they cannot be voted out?


You also have to remember that the entire conservative movement is incredibly spiteful and they're absolutely fine with any punishment as long as 1) it doesn't happen to them and 2) they can be convinced that the perpetrator "deserves it" (which is pretty easy to do, especially if they're not white)
 
N867DA
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:22 am

Newark727 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

The moment a girl is hauled away by cops to prison over birth control, or an abortion, it is GAME OVER for the anti-abortion movement. The vast majority of politicians will lose reelection if they stand in the way of moderating their laws.


How are the vast majority of the going to lose re-election after they’ve rigged the electoral system to ensure they cannot be voted out?


You also have to remember that the entire conservative movement is incredibly spiteful and they're absolutely fine with any punishment as long as 1) it doesn't happen to them and 2) they can be convinced that the perpetrator "deserves it" (which is pretty easy to do, especially if they're not white)


You can bet there will be a lot of "the only moral abortion is my abortion" types who sneak out to Illinois or New York from some backward state in years to come. These people are truly enemies of a free society.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:31 am

N867DA wrote:

You can bet there will be a lot of "the only moral abortion is my abortion" types who sneak out to Illinois or New York from some backward state in years to come. These people are truly enemies of a free society.


A woman on Twitter revealed the son of the Republican Governor of Arizona forced her to take the morning after pill after casual intercourse on a post where the Governor was gloating about the Supreme Court decision:

https://twitter.com/neenaab3/status/154 ... KeRNms5jRA

You can bet there’ll be private jets waiting in Arizona, Texas, Florida and Oklahoma to fly the mistresses of GOP politicians to California and New York for the “weekend”…….
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:32 am

Newark727 wrote:
You also have to remember that the entire conservative movement is incredibly spiteful and they're absolutely fine with any punishment as long as 1) it doesn't happen to them and 2) they can be convinced that the perpetrator "deserves it" (which is pretty easy to do, especially if they're not white)


Already heaps of Christians saying that women who fall pregnant after premarital intercourse are now going to have to live with the consequences of their “immoral” acts. I had to check what decade I was living in…..
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:24 am

PPVRA wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:

There's not enough political support to pass such legislation even in the reddest states.


Might want to read up a bit more……

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... th-control


The moment a girl is hauled away by cops to prison over birth control, or an abortion, it is GAME OVER for the anti-abortion movement. The vast majority of politicians will lose reelection if they stand in the way of moderating their laws.


That girl would have to be white middle class, from a religious family and pretty, otherwise I don’t think it would matter .
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:29 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
You also have to remember that the entire conservative movement is incredibly spiteful and they're absolutely fine with any punishment as long as 1) it doesn't happen to them and 2) they can be convinced that the perpetrator "deserves it" (which is pretty easy to do, especially if they're not white)


Already heaps of Christians saying that women who fall pregnant after premarital intercourse are now going to have to live with the consequences of their “immoral” acts. I had to check what decade I was living in…..


They forget it takes two to tango, when it dawns on men that they will also have to carry the financial burden of these children it might change a few things.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:29 am

Neither side has the federal majority needed to pass abortion legislation or amend the Constitution. That's why the Roe decision happened, there was no other way to establish those rights, apart from state laws, or interpretation of the Constitution.

Roe was intended to universalize those rights among all states, under the principle that states cannot abridge Constitutional rights. Which Roe successfully sustained for 50 years, surviving multiple direct challenges.

Now, in the Dobbs case that only marginally & secondarily challenged Roe, it was thrown out. The court could have chosen to uphold the Mississippi law limiting abortion to 15 weeks, as Chief Justice Roberts wrote in his opinion, without overturning Roe. So seems like more was involved than simple jurisprudence.

Further listening to the oral arguments back in December, it did not appear that the court was focused on overturning Roe, although both Justices Alito and Kavanaugh gave examples of the court overturning older opinions. So the leaked opinion came as a surprise to most observers.

Both Justice Sotomayor, and US Solicitor General Prelogar, pointed out that in almost all the precedents involving overturning of earlier opinions, the court had expanded the rights of the individual. Whereas in this case, a right established for 50 years would be taken away. Neither Alito nor Kavanaugh responded to that at the time, but in their opinions they stated that overturning Roe would not alter those earlier cases.

Justice Breyer made a strong argument that overturning individual rights established for 50 years, which the court has almost never done, without exceptional cause and justification, would bring political suspicion and distrust down on the court in the minds of the public. The Dobbs case did not rise to an exceptional level, so would lend the appearance of a political agenda.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:56 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:

The moment a girl is hauled away by cops to prison over birth control, or an abortion, it is GAME OVER for the anti-abortion movement. The vast majority of politicians will lose reelection if they stand in the way of moderating their laws.


How are the vast majority of the going to lose re-election after they’ve rigged the electoral system to ensure they cannot be voted out?


Indeed, having perpetrated "the big steal" how can they possibly ever lose again? :rotfl:
 
CometII
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:13 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
N867DA wrote:

You can bet there will be a lot of "the only moral abortion is my abortion" types who sneak out to Illinois or New York from some backward state in years to come. These people are truly enemies of a free society.


A woman on Twitter revealed the son of the Republican Governor of Arizona forced her to take the morning after pill after casual intercourse on a post where the Governor was gloating about the Supreme Court decision:

https://twitter.com/neenaab3/status/154 ... KeRNms5jRA

You can bet there’ll be private jets waiting in Arizona, Texas, Florida and Oklahoma to fly the mistresses of GOP politicians to California and New York for the “weekend”…….


It's not so clear Florida will go as far as Arizona or Texas.

Desantis knows Florida is not Texas. And for a guy who loves to open his mouth on any issue that will score him TV highlights, he sure has been awfully quiet on this one.

You have very defined areas of the state. The Southern part overwhelmingly backs right to choose. In fact most people as far as Central Florida by a majority want to keep abortion at 15 weeks and no less. While Tallahassee has too many times shoved their rural south views on the rest of the statey, they know this one is different. If they go for a total ban, they will be clearly sending the signal they don't give a hoot about anyone south of Gainsville, and far more people will start to really reconsider whether is wise to have a state run in the current form as it is now.
 
acavpics
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:42 pm

CometII wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
N867DA wrote:

You can bet there will be a lot of "the only moral abortion is my abortion" types who sneak out to Illinois or New York from some backward state in years to come. These people are truly enemies of a free society.


A woman on Twitter revealed the son of the Republican Governor of Arizona forced her to take the morning after pill after casual intercourse on a post where the Governor was gloating about the Supreme Court decision:

https://twitter.com/neenaab3/status/154 ... KeRNms5jRA

You can bet there’ll be private jets waiting in Arizona, Texas, Florida and Oklahoma to fly the mistresses of GOP politicians to California and New York for the “weekend”…….


It's not so clear Florida will go as far as Arizona or Texas.

Desantis knows Florida is not Texas. And for a guy who loves to open his mouth on any issue that will score him TV highlights, he sure has been awfully quiet on this one.

You have very defined areas of the state. The Southern part overwhelmingly backs right to choose. In fact most people as far as Central Florida by a majority want to keep abortion at 15 weeks and no less. While Tallahassee has too many times shoved their rural south views on the rest of the statey, they know this one is different. If they go for a total ban, they will be clearly sending the signal they don't give a hoot about anyone south of Gainsville, and far more people will start to really reconsider whether is wise to have a state run in the current form as it is now.


True. But remember that Florida is trending rightwards, whereas Texas ans Arizona are trending leftwards, as seen by recent elections.
 
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seb146
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:24 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Neither side has the federal majority needed to pass abortion legislation or amend the Constitution. That's why the Roe decision happened, there was no other way to establish those rights, apart from state laws, or interpretation of the Constitution.

Roe was intended to universalize those rights among all states, under the principle that states cannot abridge Constitutional rights. Which Roe successfully sustained for 50 years, surviving multiple direct challenges.

Now, in the Dobbs case that only marginally & secondarily challenged Roe, it was thrown out. The court could have chosen to uphold the Mississippi law limiting abortion to 15 weeks, as Chief Justice Roberts wrote in his opinion, without overturning Roe. So seems like more was involved than simple jurisprudence.

Further listening to the oral arguments back in December, it did not appear that the court was focused on overturning Roe, although both Justices Alito and Kavanaugh gave examples of the court overturning older opinions. So the leaked opinion came as a surprise to most observers.

Both Justice Sotomayor, and US Solicitor General Prelogar, pointed out that in almost all the precedents involving overturning of earlier opinions, the court had expanded the rights of the individual. Whereas in this case, a right established for 50 years would be taken away. Neither Alito nor Kavanaugh responded to that at the time, but in their opinions they stated that overturning Roe would not alter those earlier cases.

Justice Breyer made a strong argument that overturning individual rights established for 50 years, which the court has almost never done, without exceptional cause and justification, would bring political suspicion and distrust down on the court in the minds of the public. The Dobbs case did not rise to an exceptional level, so would lend the appearance of a political agenda.


Roe was settled law. The right loves to scream this about any gun legislation but completely ignores what they say when it comes to body autonomy or marriage equality. They love to scream about smaller government but their side just inserted government into every woman's life. And they are coming for marriage and contraception next.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/suprem ... -rcna35228
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/2 ... s-00042256
 
NIKV69
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:27 pm

acavpics wrote:

whereas Texas ans Arizona are trending leftwards, as seen by recent elections.


Texas is really? A Republican woman born in Mexico just won a seat that has been blue for over a hundred years yea they are really trending left. :sarcastic:
 
acavpics
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:13 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
acavpics wrote:

whereas Texas ans Arizona are trending leftwards, as seen by recent elections.


Texas is really? A Republican woman born in Mexico just won a seat that has been blue for over a hundred years yea they are really trending left. :sarcastic:


I hope you didn't forget that Beto O"Rourke came within 3 pts of unseating Cruz in 2018. And Trump only carried it by 5.5 points in 2020, as compared to Bush, McCain, and Romney who all swept it by double digits.

Maya Flore's election was limited to one district in an overwhelimingly low turnout special election. Let's see that seat stay red in fall. I highly doubt it.
 
CometII
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:28 pm

acavpics wrote:
CometII wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

A woman on Twitter revealed the son of the Republican Governor of Arizona forced her to take the morning after pill after casual intercourse on a post where the Governor was gloating about the Supreme Court decision:

https://twitter.com/neenaab3/status/154 ... KeRNms5jRA

You can bet there’ll be private jets waiting in Arizona, Texas, Florida and Oklahoma to fly the mistresses of GOP politicians to California and New York for the “weekend”…….


It's not so clear Florida will go as far as Arizona or Texas.

Desantis knows Florida is not Texas. And for a guy who loves to open his mouth on any issue that will score him TV highlights, he sure has been awfully quiet on this one.

You have very defined areas of the state. The Southern part overwhelmingly backs right to choose. In fact most people as far as Central Florida by a majority want to keep abortion at 15 weeks and no less. While Tallahassee has too many times shoved their rural south views on the rest of the statey, they know this one is different. If they go for a total ban, they will be clearly sending the signal they don't give a hoot about anyone south of Gainsville, and far more people will start to really reconsider whether is wise to have a state run in the current form as it is now.


True. But remember that Florida is trending rightwards, whereas Texas ans Arizona are trending leftwards, as seen by recent elections.


Even if we assume that is true (I don't think see real evidence that it is, Trump was a special case), we are not talking about evangelical type right wingers. Most of those who would define themselves as conservative moving to Florida are probably fiscal conservatives arriving from liberal states. Those type of people are generally less fixated on core conservative cultural issues.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:14 pm

acavpics wrote:
CometII wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

A woman on Twitter revealed the son of the Republican Governor of Arizona forced her to take the morning after pill after casual intercourse on a post where the Governor was gloating about the Supreme Court decision:

https://twitter.com/neenaab3/status/154 ... KeRNms5jRA

You can bet there’ll be private jets waiting in Arizona, Texas, Florida and Oklahoma to fly the mistresses of GOP politicians to California and New York for the “weekend”…….


It's not so clear Florida will go as far as Arizona or Texas.

Desantis knows Florida is not Texas. And for a guy who loves to open his mouth on any issue that will score him TV highlights, he sure has been awfully quiet on this one.

You have very defined areas of the state. The Southern part overwhelmingly backs right to choose. In fact most people as far as Central Florida by a majority want to keep abortion at 15 weeks and no less. While Tallahassee has too many times shoved their rural south views on the rest of the statey, they know this one is different. If they go for a total ban, they will be clearly sending the signal they don't give a hoot about anyone south of Gainsville, and far more people will start to really reconsider whether is wise to have a state run in the current form as it is now.


True. But remember that Florida is trending rightwards, whereas Texas ans Arizona are trending leftwards, as seen by recent elections.


I don’t think it is that simple. It made sense that Florida (being more east coast) is more pro choice. Even if it is conservative in other ways.
 
Jalap
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:33 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I know there are paternity tests, but I don't know how that is all handled. I'm sure it varies from state to state.

But surely, considering your opinions on abortion, you must be informed (or at least be concerned) about the end to end process, from conception to the point the human is an adult?
And surely we all agree that the cost in money, time and effort for the upbringing of a child should never fall on the shoulders of the mother alone?
If you want to force unwanted children to be born, you must have guarantees written in stone that this child has every opportunity to grow up to a competent, educated, healthy and even happy adult. Even if neither of the parents have the financial means or available time to raise a child.


I'm open to ideas to fix issues like you are talking about, along with many other ideas.

Father forced to pay half and take care of half the upbringing of the child? Perhaps there'll be fathers who have the money and time. Many won't. In a country without decent social security, that doesn't give the unwanted child a bright outlook...

Bottom line is that unwanted children will be forced to enter this world. And there's a fair chance they'll ruin their parents' lives and have a pretty crappy life themselves.

Adoption as a solution? Perhaps, but that really degrades women to breeding machines...

There basically is only 1 decent fix, which is to allow pregnancies to be terminated if the parents don't feel they can care for a child.
It's such an easy fix...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:51 pm

Jalap wrote:
There basically is only 1 decent fix, which is to allow pregnancies to be terminated if the parents don't feel they can care for a child.
It's such an easy fix...


Not according to the christian taliban.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Supreme Court is preparing to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows

Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:52 pm

Jalap wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Jalap wrote:
But surely, considering your opinions on abortion, you must be informed (or at least be concerned) about the end to end process, from conception to the point the human is an adult?
And surely we all agree that the cost in money, time and effort for the upbringing of a child should never fall on the shoulders of the mother alone?
If you want to force unwanted children to be born, you must have guarantees written in stone that this child has every opportunity to grow up to a competent, educated, healthy and even happy adult. Even if neither of the parents have the financial means or available time to raise a child.


I'm open to ideas to fix issues like you are talking about, along with many other ideas.

Father forced to pay half and take care of half the upbringing of the child? Perhaps there'll be fathers who have the money and time. Many won't. In a country without decent social security, that doesn't give the unwanted child a bright outlook...

Bottom line is that unwanted children will be forced to enter this world. And there's a fair chance they'll ruin their parents' lives and have a pretty crappy life themselves.

Adoption as a solution? Perhaps, but that really degrades women to breeding machines...

There basically is only 1 decent fix, which is to allow pregnancies to be terminated if the parents don't feel they can care for a child.
It's such an easy fix...


Not in America, land of the 'free', home of legions of insecure men
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:53 pm

The BBC is reporting that a growing number of large American corporations will pay staff travel expenses if they have to leave the state to get an abortion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61941591
Major companies including Disney, JP Morgan and Facebook owner Meta have told staff they will cover employee travel expenses for abortions, as millions of US women face restricted access.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
The BBC is reporting that a growing number of large American corporations will pay staff travel expenses if they have to leave the state to get an abortion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61941591
Major companies including Disney, JP Morgan and Facebook owner Meta have told staff they will cover employee travel expenses for abortions, as millions of US women face restricted access.


Which is extrememly positive in one sense.

However, there is also a groundswell of "why should I have to tell my employer I am seeking/have sought a termination?"
 
acavpics
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:08 am

LCDFlight wrote:
acavpics wrote:
CometII wrote:

It's not so clear Florida will go as far as Arizona or Texas.

Desantis knows Florida is not Texas. And for a guy who loves to open his mouth on any issue that will score him TV highlights, he sure has been awfully quiet on this one.

You have very defined areas of the state. The Southern part overwhelmingly backs right to choose. In fact most people as far as Central Florida by a majority want to keep abortion at 15 weeks and no less. While Tallahassee has too many times shoved their rural south views on the rest of the statey, they know this one is different. If they go for a total ban, they will be clearly sending the signal they don't give a hoot about anyone south of Gainsville, and far more people will start to really reconsider whether is wise to have a state run in the current form as it is now.


True. But remember that Florida is trending rightwards, whereas Texas ans Arizona are trending leftwards, as seen by recent elections.


I don’t think it is that simple. It made sense that Florida (being more east coast) is more pro choice. Even if it is conservative in other ways.


Let's hope that they vote for some pro-choice candidates this call. Governor and senate elections will be hard, but let's at least get a few of those urban, MIA/FLL area house seats back.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:53 am

Kent350787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The BBC is reporting that a growing number of large American corporations will pay staff travel expenses if they have to leave the state to get an abortion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61941591
Major companies including Disney, JP Morgan and Facebook owner Meta have told staff they will cover employee travel expenses for abortions, as millions of US women face restricted access.


Which is extrememly positive in one sense.

However, there is also a groundswell of "why should I have to tell my employer I am seeking/have sought a termination?"


Yeah it will make for something awkward, and also sends the message these companies would rather you not have children...

The reason they're doing that should have the governors of these states concerned though : they fear they will lose attractiveness for workers.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:53 am

seb146 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
Neither side has the federal majority needed to pass abortion legislation or amend the Constitution. That's why the Roe decision happened, there was no other way to establish those rights, apart from state laws, or interpretation of the Constitution.

Roe was intended to universalize those rights among all states, under the principle that states cannot abridge Constitutional rights. Which Roe successfully sustained for 50 years, surviving multiple direct challenges.

Now, in the Dobbs case that only marginally & secondarily challenged Roe, it was thrown out. The court could have chosen to uphold the Mississippi law limiting abortion to 15 weeks, as Chief Justice Roberts wrote in his opinion, without overturning Roe. So seems like more was involved than simple jurisprudence.

Further listening to the oral arguments back in December, it did not appear that the court was focused on overturning Roe, although both Justices Alito and Kavanaugh gave examples of the court overturning older opinions. So the leaked opinion came as a surprise to most observers.

Both Justice Sotomayor, and US Solicitor General Prelogar, pointed out that in almost all the precedents involving overturning of earlier opinions, the court had expanded the rights of the individual. Whereas in this case, a right established for 50 years would be taken away. Neither Alito nor Kavanaugh responded to that at the time, but in their opinions they stated that overturning Roe would not alter those earlier cases.

Justice Breyer made a strong argument that overturning individual rights established for 50 years, which the court has almost never done, without exceptional cause and justification, would bring political suspicion and distrust down on the court in the minds of the public. The Dobbs case did not rise to an exceptional level, so would lend the appearance of a political agenda.


Roe was settled law. The right loves to scream this about any gun legislation but completely ignores what they say when it comes to body autonomy or marriage equality. They love to scream about smaller government but their side just inserted government into every woman's life. And they are coming for marriage and contraception next.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/suprem ... -rcna35228
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/2 ... s-00042256


You forgot the "Defense" of Marriage Act in your GOP "small government" legislative examples. It's happened before so why not bring it back. :sarcastic:
 
N867DA
Posts: 1392
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:16 am

It'll be interesting to see how things progress over time. I bet in ten years abortion will be legal in most places again, or this country will become a true banana republic and people will just obey the laws they want.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:25 am

A major concern I have is that there is a lot of anger of those who opposed the decision of the US Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. Some 'pro-choice' protesters have gotten in physical conflict with those that supported the decision, climbed a bridge in DC, almost run over by a vehicle, and today, Rudy Giuliani was assaulted but not injured by an employee of a grocery store in Staten Island, NY City. while campaigning for his son who is running for the Republican party nomination to run for NY State Governor. The attacker was mouthing off about Giuliani's support of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, Giuliani's security quickly intervened and the attacker has been arrested and charged with assault (as they should be).
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/rudy-gi ... 09v12-9SxF
This may be the tip of potential future conflicts of pro-choice/pro-abortion vs. anti-choice/pro-life persons. We don't want anyone killed or seriously injured by acts of either 'side' of the issue of abortion. Assaults on persons and property, harassing politicians and judges at their homes, will just harden the sides, then gridlock for anything to try to limit the overturning of Roe as well as any other matters.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:36 am

ltbewr wrote:
A major concern I have is that there is a lot of anger of those who opposed the decision of the US Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. Some 'pro-choice' protesters have gotten in physical conflict with those that supported the decision, climbed a bridge in DC, almost run over by a vehicle, and today, Rudy Giuliani was assaulted but not injured by an employee of a grocery store in Staten Island, NY City. while campaigning for his son who is running for the Republican party nomination to run for NY State Governor. The attacker was mouthing off about Giuliani's support of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, Giuliani's security quickly intervened and the attacker has been arrested and charged with assault (as they should be).
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/rudy-gi ... 09v12-9SxF
This may be the tip of potential future conflicts of pro-choice/pro-abortion vs. anti-choice/pro-life persons. We don't want anyone killed or seriously injured by acts of either 'side' of the issue of abortion. Assaults on persons and property, harassing politicians and judges at their homes, will just harden the sides, then gridlock for anything to try to limit the overturning of Roe as well as any other matters.


This is a very valid & important point. Each side points to the extremes of the other as representative of the whole.

In another forum, a huge deal was made of "Jane's Revenge" attacks on pro-life facilities. It's not clear if that is a real organization or a false flag operation, but their actions are detrimental to any kind of reasonable discussion.

Further when I posted the report of violence against pro-choice facilities over the last year, to show that the problem exists on both sides, that drew an enraged response, that I was denying the liberal agenda.

So we all need to agree that violence and rioting are never ok, no matter how upset and angry one is. Injustice needs to be dealt with at the ballot box, within a democracy.
Last edited by Avatar2go on Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:38 am

ltbewr wrote:
A major concern I have is that there is a lot of anger of those who opposed the decision of the US Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. Some 'pro-choice' protesters have gotten in physical conflict with those that supported the decision, climbed a bridge in DC, almost run over by a vehicle, and today, Rudy Giuliani was assaulted but not injured by an employee of a grocery store in Staten Island, NY City. while campaigning for his son who is running for the Republican party nomination to run for NY State Governor. The attacker was mouthing off about Giuliani's support of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, Giuliani's security quickly intervened and the attacker has been arrested and charged with assault (as they should be).
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/rudy-gi ... 09v12-9SxF
This may be the tip of potential future conflicts of pro-choice/pro-abortion vs. anti-choice/pro-life persons. We don't want anyone killed or seriously injured by acts of either 'side' of the issue of abortion. Assaults on persons and property, harassing politicians and judges at their homes, will just harden the sides, then gridlock for anything to try to limit the overturning of Roe as well as any other matters.


People have been bombing abortion clinics for decades, screaming obscenities at women during the nadir of their lives, and those people got what they wanted. Personally, I always considered myself a high-road traveler but nowadays I don't think it achieves results.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:22 am

ltbewr wrote:
A major concern I have is that there is a lot of anger of those who opposed the decision of the US Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. Some 'pro-choice' protesters have gotten in physical conflict with those that supported the decision, climbed a bridge in DC, almost run over by a vehicle, and today, Rudy Giuliani was assaulted but not injured by an employee of a grocery store in Staten Island, NY City. while campaigning for his son who is running for the Republican party nomination to run for NY State Governor. The attacker was mouthing off about Giuliani's support of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, Giuliani's security quickly intervened and the attacker has been arrested and charged with assault (as they should be).
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/rudy-gi ... 09v12-9SxF
This may be the tip of potential future conflicts of pro-choice/pro-abortion vs. anti-choice/pro-life persons. We don't want anyone killed or seriously injured by acts of either 'side' of the issue of abortion. Assaults on persons and property, harassing politicians and judges at their homes, will just harden the sides, then gridlock for anything to try to limit the overturning of Roe as well as any other matters.


Sorry, no, people seeking to strip womens' rights do not get to take the "high road" after the violent anti-abortion actions over decades. I'm not advocating for violent action one iota, but anyone who can't understand the degree of emotion atm has no heart.
 
Newark727
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:29 am

Avatar2go wrote:
So we all need to agree that violence and rioting are never ok, no matter how upset and angry one is. Injustice needs to be dealt with at the ballot box, within a democracy.


If the United States was more of a democracy, we might never have reached this point. This decision doesn't happen without:
1. a president who lost the popular vote appointing three Supreme Court justices
2. the Senate overrepresenting certain parts of the country relative to their population based on what are, ultimately, lines drawn on a map
3. the relatively huge latitude that the Supreme Court has obtained to dictate the scope and nature of constitutional rights, which is in part a consequence of Congressional inaction (see point 2.)
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:49 am

Newark727 wrote:

If the United States was more of a democracy, we might never have reached this point. This decision doesn't happen without:
1. a president who lost the popular vote appointing three Supreme Court justices
2. the Senate over-representing certain parts of the country relative to their population based on what are, ultimately, lines drawn on a map
3. the relatively huge latitude that the Supreme Court has obtained to dictate the scope and nature of constitutional rights, which is in part a consequence of Congressional inaction (see point 2.)


Think that just means that in all societies, there are people willing to bend or break the rules for the sake of power, either to gain it or retain it.

The Constitution was written to limit what those people can do, given that they always exist. Mainly by balancing power among many forms of government, and with respect to the individual.

At present we are witnessing the end results of foreign interference in an election, that brought a person to power who was willing to abuse power to retain power. But that person is out and we have to weather the storm that he and his supporters created.

It will take time, perhaps a decade or more, but the damage will eventually be undone.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:35 am

Kent350787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
The BBC is reporting that a growing number of large American corporations will pay staff travel expenses if they have to leave the state to get an abortion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61941591
Major companies including Disney, JP Morgan and Facebook owner Meta have told staff they will cover employee travel expenses for abortions, as millions of US women face restricted access.


Which is extrememly positive in one sense.

However, there is also a groundswell of "why should I have to tell my employer I am seeking/have sought a termination?"


I'm sure it can be arranged anonymously via a trusted third party so that the employer doesn't know which employees are involved. These are blue-chip companies we're talking about - the one I used to work for had a similar scheme in place for employees who needed help with mental health issues.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:41 am

ltbewr wrote:
A major concern I have is that there is a lot of anger of those who opposed the decision of the US Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.


I'm certainly not condoning physical violence as a means of protest, but let's not pretend the pro-life brigade has limited its actions to handing out leaflets and singing campfire songs.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:43 am

Apparently the surveillance video of Rudy being assaulted is out, which shows the store employee walked up behind him and slapped him on the back. That was wrong and the employee was rightly arrested, but it was hardly the horrific incident being touted by the media. Rudy claimed that if he had not been in such good shape, he could have fallen, cracked his skull, and died.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:23 am

Newark727 wrote:

2. the Senate overrepresenting certain parts of the country relative to their population based on what are, ultimately, lines drawn on a map


The voting population of the US has not been a majority for the GOP in the Senate since 1998:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/02 ... -1996.html

The GOP candidate has only won the popular vote for President once since 1988. 5 of the Supreme Court justices, who all voted to repeal R v W, were appointed by Presidents who got to the White House with a minority of the popular vote.

If the votes of the people were properly reflected in the results the United States would be a firmly Democratic nation.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:28 am

Avatar2go wrote:
Apparently the surveillance video of Rudy being assaulted is out, which shows the store employee walked up behind him and slapped him on the back. That was wrong and the employee was rightly arrested, but it was hardly the horrific incident being touted by the media. Rudy claimed that if he had not been in such good shape, he could have fallen, cracked his skull, and died.


Video footage here:

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... bEVtlIjPig

The guy lightly pats Rudy on the back. The "slap" is so light Rudy's body doesn't even move. He shows no sign of being injured. It is the biggest nothing burger ever.

Just as truthful as the pro life argument.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:48 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
Apparently the surveillance video of Rudy being assaulted is out, which shows the store employee walked up behind him and slapped him on the back. That was wrong and the employee was rightly arrested, but it was hardly the horrific incident being touted by the media. Rudy claimed that if he had not been in such good shape, he could have fallen, cracked his skull, and died.


Video footage here:

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... bEVtlIjPig

The guy lightly pats Rudy on the back. The "slap" is so light Rudy's body doesn't even move. He shows no sign of being injured. It is the biggest nothing burger ever.

Just as truthful as the pro life argument.


Good job he's such a tough guy, anyone else would have "fallen, cracked their skull and died" (tm).
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 393
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:57 am

scbriml wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
Apparently the surveillance video of Rudy being assaulted is out, which shows the store employee walked up behind him and slapped him on the back. That was wrong and the employee was rightly arrested, but it was hardly the horrific incident being touted by the media. Rudy claimed that if he had not been in such good shape, he could have fallen, cracked his skull, and died.


Video footage here:

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... bEVtlIjPig

The guy lightly pats Rudy on the back. The "slap" is so light Rudy's body doesn't even move. He shows no sign of being injured. It is the biggest nothing burger ever.

Just as truthful as the pro life argument.


Good job he's such a tough guy, anyone else would have "fallen, cracked their skull and died" (tm).


What??

That looked less a slap than me or some of my friends give each other when meeting!

And I do remember Rudis ex-(still?) Boss always trying to pull other people over the table when shaking hands or play a game of who can crush the others hand longer when meeting them. That is probably more dangerous that Rudi would have been pulled over the table, fallen and cracked his skull
 
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STT757
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:07 pm

ltbewr wrote:
A major concern I have is that there is a lot of anger of those who opposed the decision of the US Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. Some 'pro-choice' protesters have gotten in physical conflict with those that supported the decision, climbed a bridge in DC, almost run over by a vehicle, and today, Rudy Giuliani was assaulted but not injured by an employee of a grocery store in Staten Island, NY City. while campaigning for his son who is running for the Republican party nomination to run for NY State Governor. The attacker was mouthing off about Giuliani's support of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, Giuliani's security quickly intervened and the attacker has been arrested and charged with assault (as they should be).
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/rudy-gi ... 09v12-9SxF


Come on, the guy patted him on his back to get his attention. And there was no intervention as none was needed, the cops were called after the fact. Watch the video. The guy shouldn't have touched him, but he didn't "slap" him.

https://nypost.com/2022/06/26/rudy-giuliani-attacked-inside-staten-island-shoprite/
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:57 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
scbriml wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:

Video footage here:

https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/stat ... bEVtlIjPig

The guy lightly pats Rudy on the back. The "slap" is so light Rudy's body doesn't even move. He shows no sign of being injured. It is the biggest nothing burger ever.

Just as truthful as the pro life argument.


Good job he's such a tough guy, anyone else would have "fallen, cracked their skull and died" (tm).


What??

That looked less a slap than me or some of my friends give each other when meeting!


I guess my sarcasm was less obvious than I thought. :wink2:
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:59 pm

scbriml wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Good job he's such a tough guy, anyone else would have "fallen, cracked their skull and died" (tm).


What??

That looked less a slap than me or some of my friends give each other when meeting!


I guess my sarcasm was less obvious than I thought. :wink2:
I did get it. My what was referring to Rudi not you.
Could it be....dare I say it.....Rudi is a.... snowflake??
 
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scbriml
Posts: 21094
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Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:07 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
scbriml wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:

What??

That looked less a slap than me or some of my friends give each other when meeting!


I guess my sarcasm was less obvious than I thought. :wink2:
I did get it. My what was referring to Rudi not you.
Could it be....dare I say it.....Rudi is a.... snowflake??


Ah, I see. My bad. :oops:

How a man can go from being respected around the World for his response to 9/11, to this via a disastrous presser in a parking lot and the melting face fiasco is just beyond belief.
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1764
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Updated: US supreme court overturns abortion rights, upending Roe vs. Wade

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:33 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Apparently the surveillance video of Rudy being assaulted is out, which shows the store employee walked up behind him and slapped him on the back. That was wrong and the employee was rightly arrested, but it was hardly the horrific incident being touted by the media. Rudy claimed that if he had not been in such good shape, he could have fallen, cracked his skull, and died.


He should stop enticing attacks like that and just do the deed himself.

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