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Newark727
Posts: 3004
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 4:31 am

Virtual737 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Shhhh! No sanity or fact allowed when trying to disparage America or Texas when it comes to guns. :sarcastic:


There is sanity in America or Texas when it comes to guns?


Not much fact either. The gun lobby hates it when people do research on this stuff.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 5:13 am

NIKV69 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
You still need a background check to purchase firearms.


Shhhh! No sanity or fact allowed when trying to disparage America or Texas when it comes to guns. :sarcastic:


There is nothing more disparaging to America when it comes to guns than an American citizen shooting up a bunch of other, innocent American citizens.
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 5:49 am

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:

If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...


Mmmmkay yeah, there's a whole field devoted to that, in case you didn't know. Are you suggesting mass testing for psychosis?


In the China "Zero-case" system, they test millions every day until there are no positives.
But is there a "swab test" for insanity? I don't think so. Not yet at least.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14179
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 5:58 am

M564038 wrote:
Reminds me a bit of Anders Breivik, this guy. Right wing brainwashed scum.


More like Brenton Tarrant, Breivik killed mostly white people, whereas the people Tarrant killed were mostly people of colour and muslim. Tarrant was a believer in replacement theory, it's what his manifesto was about.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7592
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 6:48 am

Clutch101 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Clutch101 wrote:

But he didn’t do the job he was paid to do, protect the customers. Kinda blows up the whole good guy with a gun. Hope the supermarket withholds any payments to his family seeing he failed to do his job.



The kid was wearing body armour. He came prepared, the security guard had no chance.


If the security officer was equally prepared he might have made a difference. What's the point in having some "rent a cop" there if he's worthless. Why wasn't he wearing any body armor or carrying an assault rifle. They're legal to own and carry so why wasn't he? I know why, it's complacency. He was hanging out, like usual, reading a magazine and checking out the ladies! Never occurred to him that it just might happen there. That age old adage "When seconds count the real police are days away" He should have taken the mantra to heart. I have a buddy who always spouts that saying off any chance he gets.


If anything on this thread sums up the warped US culture on guns, it's got to be this....
So now security guards AT A SHOPPING MALL have got to be loaded like the security at top secret military establishments?
And that's the answer to the problem?
Utterly bizarre in a developed society.....

gunsontheroof wrote:
So, heavily armed security in every grocery store is the answer to the problem. Anything but sensible gun control legislation. Got it.


I can't disagree. But it's only a small part of the problem. There's a massive behavioural and cultural issue that's embedded in the 2nd Amendment in my opinion.
You have to ask why that legislation is not required in any other developed country...

Rgds
 
M564038
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 8:04 am

Not to divert the thread, but Breivik chose his victims because they were to become the primary cultural-marxist facilitators for the muslim takeover of europe.

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Reminds me a bit of Anders Breivik, this guy. Right wing brainwashed scum.


More like Brenton Tarrant, Breivik killed mostly white people, whereas the people Tarrant killed were mostly people of colour and muslim. Tarrant was a believer in replacement theory, it's what his manifesto was about.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 1461
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 8:54 am

astuteman wrote:
There's a massive behavioural and cultural issue that's embedded in the 2nd Amendment in my opinion.


The US tops it's peers in gun crime (by some margin). The US tops it's peers in incarceration rate (by a huge margin). No amount of suggestion by anyone outside the US (or even those in the US against such gun freedoms) will ever be listened to. If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 9:11 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...

If there was such a test, it would be interesting to see if it was administered to some of the people on this board. The kind of people who think all Republicans are traitors, or that the retired cop who died was a loser. If they spout that garbage on an aviation board, imagine what they say on other boards. I would think they have very few friends who haven't been scared off by such craziness. There are several people here who might be one slight away from taking a pop at a Supreme Court Justice for example. "Oh yeah, so-and-so. Not surprised at all when you see his online posts."
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8620
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 12:32 pm

astuteman wrote:
If anything on this thread sums up the warped US culture on guns, it's got to be this....
So now security guards AT A SHOPPING MALL have got to be loaded like the security at top secret military establishments?
And that's the answer to the problem?
Utterly bizarre in a developed society.....

Yep. Its bizarre enough that there actually needs to be an armed security officer at a grocery store and beyond bizarre that people even suggest that they need bigger guns. Honestly, I don't know whats more disheartening, the fact that so many innocent people have to die in these shootings every year or the same nonsense regurgitated by the pro-gun advocates saying that guns aren't the problem. Simply mind boggling.
 
M564038
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 12:39 pm

In which case I think you should call them out here and now. I, for one, must have missed something.
As a matter of fact, there seems to be a distinct lack of the extreme left on this forum, but there surely is a few fringe right voices. Maybe from the locally right-skewed american political environment it looks differently.

Bricktop wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...

If there was such a test, it would be interesting to see if it was administered to some of the people on this board. The kind of people who think all Republicans are traitors, or that the retired cop who died was a loser. If they spout that garbage on an aviation board, imagine what they say on other boards. I would think they have very few friends who haven't been scared off by such craziness. There are several people here who might be one slight away from taking a pop at a Supreme Court Justice for example. "Oh yeah, so-and-so. Not surprised at all when you see his online posts."
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17993
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 12:52 pm

Bricktop wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...

If there was such a test, it would be interesting to see if it was administered to some of the people on this board. The kind of people who think all Republicans are traitors, or that the retired cop who died was a loser. If they spout that garbage on an aviation board, imagine what they say on other boards. I would think they have very few friends who haven't been scared off by such craziness. There are several people here who might be one slight away from taking a pop at a Supreme Court Justice for example. "Oh yeah, so-and-so. Not surprised at all when you see his online posts."


Sure that stuff is annoying, but still pales in comparison to the crap on supremacist/nationalist boards like Stormfront and 4-chan. There's a big difference between calling people idiots/losers and saying not enough of so-and-so got killed.

Pretty disingenuous to equate partisan criticism on either side with nuts who constantly encourage/incite violence.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 1:17 pm

M564038 wrote:
In which case I think you should call them out here and now. I, for one, must have missed something.
As a matter of fact, there seems to be a distinct lack of the extreme left on this forum, but there surely is a few fringe right voices. Maybe from the locally right-skewed american political environment it looks differently.

Bricktop wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...

If there was such a test, it would be interesting to see if it was administered to some of the people on this board. The kind of people who think all Republicans are traitors, or that the retired cop who died was a loser. If they spout that garbage on an aviation board, imagine what they say on other boards. I would think they have very few friends who haven't been scared off by such craziness. There are several people here who might be one slight away from taking a pop at a Supreme Court Justice for example. "Oh yeah, so-and-so. Not surprised at all when you see his online posts."

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Ah but I have, to get the clever retort of being called a Putin lackey for my troubles. It is 180 degrees from the truth, but the slur thrower hardly cares.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 1:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...

If there was such a test, it would be interesting to see if it was administered to some of the people on this board. The kind of people who think all Republicans are traitors, or that the retired cop who died was a loser. If they spout that garbage on an aviation board, imagine what they say on other boards. I would think they have very few friends who haven't been scared off by such craziness. There are several people here who might be one slight away from taking a pop at a Supreme Court Justice for example. "Oh yeah, so-and-so. Not surprised at all when you see his online posts."


Sure that stuff is annoying, but still pales in comparison to the crap on supremacist/nationalist boards like Stormfront and 4-chan. There's a big difference between calling people idiots/losers and saying not enough of so-and-so got killed.

Pretty disingenuous to equate partisan criticism on either side with nuts who constantly encourage/incite violence.

You read that crap? I wouldn’t crack my knuckles to make the keystrokes.
 
M564038
Posts: 1123
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 1:27 pm

That was a bit to mysterious to me.
As someone pretty middle of the road politically, I am member of a political party that has 4 parties to the left, and 5 parties to the right of ut represented in our parlament, I fail to see any grounds for your paranoia.
You do seem to fall pretty far out on the right on the scale, and I am sure the distance from there to whatever little you have of the Left in the US seems vast. Especially since your mainstream is so far skewed to the right. Remember. Joe Biden would be considered clearly to the right of centre in almost every country on the planet. He is a right wing politician.
Bricktop wrote:
M564038 wrote:
In which case I think you should call them out here and now. I, for one, must have missed something.
As a matter of fact, there seems to be a distinct lack of the extreme left on this forum, but there surely is a few fringe right voices. Maybe from the locally right-skewed american political environment it looks differently.

Bricktop wrote:
If there was such a test, it would be interesting to see if it was administered to some of the people on this board. The kind of people who think all Republicans are traitors, or that the retired cop who died was a loser. If they spout that garbage on an aviation board, imagine what they say on other boards. I would think they have very few friends who haven't been scared off by such craziness. There are several people here who might be one slight away from taking a pop at a Supreme Court Justice for example. "Oh yeah, so-and-so. Not surprised at all when you see his online posts."

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Ah but I have, to get the clever retort of being called a Putin lackey for my troubles. It is 180 degrees from the truth, but the slur thrower hardly cares.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 15517
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 2:10 pm

SEAorPWM wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I have to wonder how many Republican Governors will call for a ban on discussions of Critical Replacement theory.?

Seems like a very disturbed young man repeating right wing talking points, and used a gun to remove a bunch of people that never did anything to him other than just existing.

I can't wait to see how deep the boards he frequented were in helping to push these awful theories along.


They'll probably criticize NYS for putting 16 and 17 year olds into the juvenile system instead (this is from the reports of him threatening his school last year).

It does show a disturbing loophole, but I'm afraid they'll focus on sending them back to Riker's for all crimes instead of plugging this obvious flaw in the mental health/background check system.

EDIT - seeing how the mainstream GOP is already hurtling off the "replacement" cliff, I would also say "no".




Well,looks like QANON is driving the talking points in the GOP now.

https://www.businessinsider.com/buffalo ... lag-2022-5

rizona GOP lawmaker Wendy Rogers cited a right-wing conspiracy theory claiming that a mass shooting in Buffalo, New York, was perpetrated by a federal agent.

Rogers posted the message in her Telegram account on Saturday, hours after the shooting in a supermarket that left 10 people dead and three injured.

"Fed boy summer has started in Buffalo," Rogers tweeted, seeming to imply that the shooter was a federal agent.

The claim echoes far right conspiracy theories claiming that mass shootings are government "false flag" plots designed to justify taking away citizens' freedoms.


You so have the censured Republicans trying to warn about the issue, but they aren't considered GOP by most MAGA members.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... epublicans
Did you know: @EliseStefanik pushes white replacement theory? The #3 in the house GOP @Liz_Cheney got removed for demanding truth. @GOPLeader should be asked about this,” he said in a tweet, referring to Wyoming Republican Cheney’s ousting by the House minority leader, Kevin McCarthy, over her place on the 6 January panel.

Kinzinger, of Illinois, is the only other Republican on the House committee looking into Donald Trump’s efforts to overturn his election defeat to Joe Biden. He also attacked Stefanik this week for a tweet in which she accused Democrats of being “pedo grifters” – meaning pedophiles – for providing baby formula for immigrant babies at the southern border during a national shortage.



and don't forget, the cheerleading for all this comes from the go to right wing meda.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... epublicans.

Arguably the biggest rightwing apologist for great replacement theory, however, is Carlson, the Fox News host.


On his show last year, he stated: “Demographic change is the key to the Democratic party’s political ambitions. In order to win and maintain power, Democrats plan to change the population of the country.”

His “nefarious” stance, the Washington Post columnist Greg Sargent wrote: “exposes the ideological underbelly of the broader right-wing populist nationalist movement that he and his defenders champion”.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17993
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 2:33 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
If there was such a test, it would be interesting to see if it was administered to some of the people on this board. The kind of people who think all Republicans are traitors, or that the retired cop who died was a loser. If they spout that garbage on an aviation board, imagine what they say on other boards. I would think they have very few friends who haven't been scared off by such craziness. There are several people here who might be one slight away from taking a pop at a Supreme Court Justice for example. "Oh yeah, so-and-so. Not surprised at all when you see his online posts."


Sure that stuff is annoying, but still pales in comparison to the crap on supremacist/nationalist boards like Stormfront and 4-chan. There's a big difference between calling people idiots/losers and saying not enough of so-and-so got killed.

Pretty disingenuous to equate partisan criticism on either side with nuts who constantly encourage/incite violence.

You read that crap? I wouldn’t crack my knuckles to make the keystrokes.


Not by choice - have had to as part of background investigations on employees.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 16239
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 2:40 pm

The terrorist's long manifesto and other info gathered so far suggests he planned to do more attacks on Black persons in other locations in the area. He apparently 'scouted' for locations to carry out his perverse plans driving to the area the day before. The NY Governor has pledged monies to the victims' families. The owners of the store (Tops) is making arrangements to transport persons in the neighborhood to another store in the area as well as distribute food for those in need as the only food supermarket in the neighborhood and will be closed indefinitely for investigaitons. President Biden to visit Buffalo on Tuesday to meet with victims and their families. He has already spoken about this tragedy.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/biden ... uxbndlbing
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/16/us/buffa ... index.html
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2966
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Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 3:10 pm

Trust the Science
Trust the Trained Professionals
In Law Enforcement
And In Mental Health....



Buffalo shooter’s prior threat, hospital stay under scrutiny

https://apnews.com/article/buffalo-supe ... ad9b490a12

Gendron had threatened to carry out a shooting at Susquehanna Valley High School in Conklin around graduation, a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity said. The official was not authorized to speak publicly on the investigation.

Buffalo Police Commissioner Joseph Gramaglia said Gendron had no further contact with law enforcement after a mental health evaluation that put him in a hospital for a day and a half.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 17993
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Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 3:23 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Trust the Science
Trust the Trained Professionals
In Law Enforcement
And In Mental Health....


The snide remarks are pretty crass. The trained professionals are not the problem - the tangled web of federal, state, and local laws and procedures are because they tie everyone's hands.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18956
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 3:33 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...

If there was such a test, it would be interesting to see if it was administered to some of the people on this board. The kind of people who think all Republicans are traitors, or that the retired cop who died was a loser. If they spout that garbage on an aviation board, imagine what they say on other boards. I would think they have very few friends who haven't been scared off by such craziness. There are several people here who might be one slight away from taking a pop at a Supreme Court Justice for example. "Oh yeah, so-and-so. Not surprised at all when you see his online posts."


Sure that stuff is annoying, but still pales in comparison to the crap on supremacist/nationalist boards like Stormfront and 4-chan. There's a big difference between calling people idiots/losers and saying not enough of so-and-so got killed.

Pretty disingenuous to equate partisan criticism on either side with nuts who constantly encourage/incite violence.

The stuff that's on 4chan, and in this guy's manifesto, is indistinguishable from what is on Fox News 24-7, or in the vast majority of the GOP's communication. Hell, you know you've gone astray when a bloody Cheney is calling you out for it--which is more than any of the worthless Democrats have done:

"Rep. Liz Cheney tore into her follow House Republicans Monday, accusing party leadership of having “enabled white nationalism, white supremacy, and anti-semitism.”"

“History has taught us that what begins with words ends in far worse,” Cheney (R-Wyo.) tweeted less than 48 hours after Saturday’s racially motivated massacre at a Buffalo supermarket. “@GOP leaders must renounce and reject these views and those who hold them.”

https://nypost.com/2022/05/16/liz-chene ... remacists/


M564038 wrote:
In which case I think you should call them out here and now. I, for one, must have missed something.
As a matter of fact, there seems to be a distinct lack of the extreme left on this forum, but there surely is a few fringe right voices. Maybe from the locally right-skewed american political environment it looks differently.

Bricktop wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...

If there was such a test, it would be interesting to see if it was administered to some of the people on this board. The kind of people who think all Republicans are traitors, or that the retired cop who died was a loser. If they spout that garbage on an aviation board, imagine what they say on other boards. I would think they have very few friends who haven't been scared off by such craziness. There are several people here who might be one slight away from taking a pop at a Supreme Court Justice for example. "Oh yeah, so-and-so. Not surprised at all when you see his online posts."

"Radical left" in the USA always makes me lol--what could that possibly be? Everyone gets universal healthcare and K-12 education? Guns deaths are reduced 50%? Radical? Maybe. Stalin Part II? No. Meanwhile middle of the road republicans have passed laws for neighbors and healthcare workers to rat out trans children to be investigated and taken away by the state. A woman who induced an abortion was reported and jailed briefly--for now. Totally normal.
 
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par13del
Posts: 11396
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 4:07 pm

My question, if these folks doing these killings did not have easy access to guns, what would they use, or do we believe that if they cannot access guns they will simply let things go?
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 4:14 pm

par13del wrote:
My question, if these folks doing these killings did not have easy access to guns, what would they use, or do we believe that if they cannot access guns they will simply let things go?


In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.
 
ObadiahPlainman
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 4:19 pm

T54A wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
T54A wrote:
Guns. You guys definitely need more guns. And definitely no licenses and background checks. Just guns for everyone. That will fix things.


I don't remember anyone saying we don't need permits and background checks but don't get let that stand in the way to a anti USA rant. :sarcastic:


“Since Texas has permitless carry, any person 21 years of age and older who can legally possess a firearm under federal and Texas state law may carry a concealed firearm on his or her person without a license or permit.”


Still requires a background check for purchasing a firearm. And yes, contrary to the false media narrative, that includes at gun shows.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18956
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 4:26 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
par13del wrote:
My question, if these folks doing these killings did not have easy access to guns, what would they use, or do we believe that if they cannot access guns they will simply let things go?


In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.

No they don't.
 
Newark727
Posts: 3004
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 4:41 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
par13del wrote:
My question, if these folks doing these killings did not have easy access to guns, what would they use, or do we believe that if they cannot access guns they will simply let things go?


In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.


Australia introduced stricter gun control in the late 1990s, IIRC. I feel like if there was an uptick in suicide bombings afterward, someone probably would have noticed.
 
johns624
Posts: 5557
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 4:48 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
par13del wrote:
My question, if these folks doing these killings did not have easy access to guns, what would they use, or do we believe that if they cannot access guns they will simply let things go?


In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.

No they don't.
You forget about this one? He killed one more than the Buffalo shooter, in nice, peaceful Canada.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_van_attack
 
ReverseFlow
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 5:21 pm

johns624 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:

In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.

No they don't.
You forget about this one? He killed one more than the Buffalo shooter, in nice, peaceful Canada.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_van_attack
Well not a suicide vest.
But 'The incident is the deadliest vehicle-ramming attack in Canadian history.'
With 11 dead.

Sadly, 10 seems like par for the course for gun rampages (granted USA has ~10x more population than Canada)
 
T54A
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:47 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 5:27 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
par13del wrote:
My question, if these folks doing these killings did not have easy access to guns, what would they use, or do we believe that if they cannot access guns they will simply let things go?


In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.


This is the most absurd statement I have ever read. I’m not even sure how to respond.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18956
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 5:42 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
johns624 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
No they don't.
You forget about this one? He killed one more than the Buffalo shooter, in nice, peaceful Canada.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_van_attack
Well not a suicide vest.
But 'The incident is the deadliest vehicle-ramming attack in Canadian history.'
With 11 dead.

Sadly, 10 seems like par for the course for gun rampages (granted USA has ~10x more population than Canada)


T54A wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
par13del wrote:
My question, if these folks doing these killings did not have easy access to guns, what would they use, or do we believe that if they cannot access guns they will simply let things go?


In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.


This is the most absurd statement I have ever read. I’m not even sure how to respond.


An anecdote is not data. The USA's homicide rate is 210% higher than Canada's in 2020.
 
wingman
Posts: 4299
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 5:56 pm

T54A wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
par13del wrote:
My question, if these folks doing these killings did not have easy access to guns, what would they use, or do we believe that if they cannot access guns they will simply let things go?


In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.


This is the most absurd statement I have ever read. I’m not even sure how to respond.


I sometimes practice talking to the produce at Safeway. People look at me funny but the practice helps in everyday conversation.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24661
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 6:04 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
T54A wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

I don't remember anyone saying we don't need permits and background checks but don't get let that stand in the way to a anti USA rant. :sarcastic:


“Since Texas has permitless carry, any person 21 years of age and older who can legally possess a firearm under federal and Texas state law may carry a concealed firearm on his or her person without a license or permit.”


Still requires a background check for purchasing a firearm. And yes, contrary to the false media narrative, that includes at gun shows.


Why, then, are Democrats in committee introducing a bill to close the "gun show loophole"?

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-con ... /1006/text

Only 14 states have any kind of back ground checks at gun shows

https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-show-laws-by-state-721345
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15517
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 6:07 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
johns624 wrote:
You forget about this one? He killed one more than the Buffalo shooter, in nice, peaceful Canada.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_van_attack
Well not a suicide vest.
But 'The incident is the deadliest vehicle-ramming attack in Canadian history.'
With 11 dead.

Sadly, 10 seems like par for the course for gun rampages (granted USA has ~10x more population than Canada)


T54A wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:

In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.


This is the most absurd statement I have ever read. I’m not even sure how to respond.


An anecdote is not data. The USA's homicide rate is 210% higher than Canada's in 2020.


More guns = more deaths

Justifiable homide still are low compared to actual murders.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/251 ... in-the-us/

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... ble-10.xls
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24661
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 6:07 pm

Republican New York Representative Elise Stefanik is another Republican pushing "replacement theory"

https://www.syracuse.com/state/2022/05/ ... oting.html

Along with Tucker Carlson, these are main stream Republican talking points. No longer fringe ones. And how many Republicans are condemning or speaking out on any level against it? Liz Cheney. But, she is a pariah in the GOP so she does not count. Other than that, crickets.
 
johns624
Posts: 5557
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 6:41 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
An anecdote is not data. The USA's homicide rate is 210% higher than Canada's in 2020.
You said it never happened in other countries. I just provided an example that it did, from only a couple of years ago. That's what you get for making absolute statements.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4599
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 6:50 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.

How is a gun going to help against a suicide vest?
You won’t know if someone is a suicide bomber, till the vest goes boom.
Or do you think suicide bombers wear name tags?
 
ObadiahPlainman
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:43 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 6:50 pm

seb146 wrote:
ObadiahPlainman wrote:
T54A wrote:

“Since Texas has permitless carry, any person 21 years of age and older who can legally possess a firearm under federal and Texas state law may carry a concealed firearm on his or her person without a license or permit.”


Still requires a background check for purchasing a firearm. And yes, contrary to the false media narrative, that includes at gun shows.


Why, then, are Democrats in committee introducing a bill to close the "gun show loophole"?

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-con ... /1006/text

Only 14 states have any kind of back ground checks at gun shows

https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-show-laws-by-state-721345


That's misleading. Gun shows will have typically two types of sellers: licensed dealers and private sellers. In the former, ALL sales require federal background checks in ALL states. Period, full stop. For the latter, most shows in the states that don't require it have enacted laws that require background checks for private sales (among them, NY, CA, IL).

Moreover, the issue in most firearms crimes isn't legally acquired guns, it's illegally procured arms. FBI's own crime stats bear this out and have for decades. The demagoguery here is shocking--no matter how many times the narrative is parroted, it doesn't change the facts.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18956
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 7:00 pm

johns624 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
An anecdote is not data. The USA's homicide rate is 210% higher than Canada's in 2020.
You said it never happened in other countries. I just provided an example that it did, from only a couple of years ago. That's what you get for making absolute statements.

That's not at all what I said. DIRECTFLT tried to deflect from the US' epidemic of gun homicide with BUT MOOSELAMBS and there is no data to support they are anywhere near comparable. Just the usual conservative nuclear bigotry.
 
johns624
Posts: 5557
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 7:03 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
An anecdote is not data. The USA's homicide rate is 210% higher than Canada's in 2020.
You said it never happened in other countries. I just provided an example that it did, from only a couple of years ago. That's what you get for making absolute statements.

That's not at all what I said. DIRECTFLT tried to deflect from the US' epidemic of gun homicide with BUT MOOSELAMBS and there is no data to support they are anywhere near comparable. Just the usual conservative nuclear bigotry.
Are you calling me a "conservative"? That's a bad joke.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18956
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 7:04 pm

johns624 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
You said it never happened in other countries. I just provided an example that it did, from only a couple of years ago. That's what you get for making absolute statements.

That's not at all what I said. DIRECTFLT tried to deflect from the US' epidemic of gun homicide with BUT MOOSELAMBS and there is no data to support they are anywhere near comparable. Just the usual conservative nuclear bigotry.
Are you calling me a "conservative"? That's a bad joke.

Only if you're also DIRECTFLT
 
SEAorPWM
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:41 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Mon May 16, 2022 9:56 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
astuteman wrote:
There's a massive behavioural and cultural issue that's embedded in the 2nd Amendment in my opinion.


The US tops it's peers in gun crime (by some margin). The US tops it's peers in incarceration rate (by a huge margin). No amount of suggestion by anyone outside the US (or even those in the US against such gun freedoms) will ever be listened to. If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny.


Aside from the guns, some of the reasons the incarceration level is so high here might be:

- Multiple, often contradictory layers of laws at the local, state, and federal levels that can vary greatly between states. Even within the state level, laws often contradict each other. New legislation is often passed without review of existing statutes.
- Punishments not fitting crime: having a couple grams of weed can send you to jail. My Danish friend who has also lived in the US said Danish law is almost a slap on the wrist by comparison.
- Politics: looking tough on crime, despite the severity of said crimes, gets votes in this nation.
- 17 is considered adulthood at the state level: this creates a somewhat wider sample size of those who are probably more impulsive than your older adult population on average. The only country I can think of that did this was NZ, but they changed it to 18 a while back. I'm talking *all* crimes here, not committing a race-driven massacre.
- Race...

Going back to this massacre, here is what I predict will happen based on my spiel above:

1) Bills are introduced at the federal level to strengthen the background check process, including prevention of someone previously taken into custody for making threats at any age from buying assault weapons in another state.
2) GOP Congresspeople shoot down said bills and repeat the same states' rights crap.
3) GOPers at the state level use this terrorist attack to push legislation to send more juveniles to adult jail, like Louisiana is currently trying to do with all 17 year olds, including misdemeanors. Many NE white wealthier Democrats support these measures, like they did in the 90s. Filling the adult jails with people too young to hire his/her own lawyer cranks up approval ratings from the "tough on crime" perspective, while avoiding the tough subjects (racism, gun access to nutjobs...).
4) Right-wingers continue to deflect blame for their racist lies, and will go back to fighting non-whitewashed versions of US history in public schools when it comes to race.
5) Media and country largely forget it in a month outside of Buffalo.

To summarize, nothing will be done to prevent sonething like this happening again. There may however be collateral damage outside of Buffalo (17 year old black Louisiana boys being more harshly charged with misdemeanors, for example).
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2966
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 4:39 am

petertenthije wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
In other countries, where they don't do mass killings with guns, they make suicide vests. There's no guarantee that if the US gave up on gun ownership, that radical religious suicide killings would not move in... Plus, once they're 25, they can rent a truck, and drive into masses.

How is a gun going to help against a suicide vest?
You won’t know if someone is a suicide bomber, till the vest goes boom.
Or do you think suicide bombers wear name tags?


Your line of questioning is not what I was arguing.
I'm not here to "win" arguments though.

I find it curious that the MSM sees this racist attack as the end of the world...
I don't support the attack.
I don't support the Waukesha Christmas parade attack.
I don't support the black on black murdering in Chicago.

But none of these things are the "End of the World."
 
TriJets
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 11:43 am

Clutch101 wrote:
TriJets,

Please spare me the hand wringing, pearl clutching rhetoric. Quit trying to deflect or move the goalposts with the 70 million BS, you know damn well your party is the party of hate. It's played daily on fox, fox and friends, hannity, carlson, ingraham etc. Sorry you were also aghast at the thought that a obviously trained, with many years of service, policeman didn't do the job he was paid to do. He could have saved many lives, but failed. What is that old saying you're very familiar with "When seconds count, the police are hours or days away" Well here you have a police officer right there! Lotta good he did.. You know, I heard a tall tale some time ago about somebodys family member being home alone when some Ninja's tried to break in, the family member yelled out they had a bazooka and scared the Ninja's away. Maybe somebody should have yelled that?


First of all I'm not affiliated with either party. The GOP lost me years ago when they went out to right field and the DNC lost me before that. I mostly vote Democrat in elections but am not a straight ticket voter.

Your biggest mistake is expecting perfection. Nothing is perfect. The fact that the cop in Buffalo was killed because the shooter wore body armor does not negate any of my arguments any more than the fact that some vaccinated people still die of COVID negates the effectiveness of the vaccines. Nothing is ever 100%, entirely perfect. Yet instances of defensive gun use still dramatically outnumber gun homicides in the US.

With regard to your ninjas comment, that's probably a jab at me, and that's the reason that gun control is dead in this country. Some people like to sit high in their ivory tower and pretend that crime doesn't exist and that anyone who dares to experience crime is just making it up. It is a very elitist attitude that only resonates with other out of touch snobs. Reality begs to differ, as I can personally attest to.

The good news is that the 2nd is here to stay and we have choices in this country. If you don't want a gun, you are free not to buy one. You don't get to make my choice for me, though.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 2:22 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
A question would be, how could a sane person carry out something like this?

If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...


And the guy would still pass the test. Dude literally has a red flag on him and still was able to get a gun, LEGALLY, in NY State no less.

Plus getting off topic, but the whole "covid zero" thing is literally a big failure in China causing nothing but chaos.
 
johns624
Posts: 5557
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 2:54 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
A question would be, how could a sane person carry out something like this?

If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...


And the guy would still pass the test. Dude literally has a red flag on him and still was able to get a gun, LEGALLY, in NY State no less.

Plus getting off topic, but the whole "covid zero" thing is literally a big failure in China causing nothing but chaos.
He supposedly had a psych evaluation but I couldn't find the results anywhere. I wonder what they were and if someone dropped the ball by not putting them onto his record?
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 3:54 pm

johns624 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
A question would be, how could a sane person carry out something like this?

If we could only test for insanity, like China tests it's people for Covid...


And the guy would still pass the test. Dude literally has a red flag on him and still was able to get a gun, LEGALLY, in NY State no less.

Plus getting off topic, but the whole "covid zero" thing is literally a big failure in China causing nothing but chaos.
He supposedly had a psych evaluation but I couldn't find the results anywhere. I wonder what they were and if someone dropped the ball by not putting them onto his record?


I wonder also...perhaps bc he was a minor (17) when he had that psych eval?

It's yet another failure of "red flag" law. The Fedex shooter in Indy had multiple red flags also and yet was also able to buy his gun LEGALLY.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24661
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 4:19 pm

ObadiahPlainman wrote:
seb146 wrote:
ObadiahPlainman wrote:

Still requires a background check for purchasing a firearm. And yes, contrary to the false media narrative, that includes at gun shows.


Why, then, are Democrats in committee introducing a bill to close the "gun show loophole"?

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-con ... /1006/text

Only 14 states have any kind of back ground checks at gun shows

https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-show-laws-by-state-721345


That's misleading. Gun shows will have typically two types of sellers: licensed dealers and private sellers. In the former, ALL sales require federal background checks in ALL states. Period, full stop. For the latter, most shows in the states that don't require it have enacted laws that require background checks for private sales (among them, NY, CA, IL).

Moreover, the issue in most firearms crimes isn't legally acquired guns, it's illegally procured arms. FBI's own crime stats bear this out and have for decades. The demagoguery here is shocking--no matter how many times the narrative is parroted, it doesn't change the facts.


This mass murderer in Buffalo managed to get his hands on all those weapons and no one said a thing. Not his parents, not friends, not FBI... no one. His parents should have known, if they were any kind of parent at all.

And you are still avoiding the FACT that only certain gun sales need background checks. Perhaps the Buffalo shooter did this to legally acquire his guns? But, again, it would be against the law, for some reason, to stop this.
 
johns624
Posts: 5557
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 4:23 pm

seb146 wrote:
And you are still avoiding the FACT that only certain gun sales need background checks. Perhaps the Buffalo shooter did this to legally acquire his guns? But, again, it would be against the law, for some reason, to stop this.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, but he bought the gun from a licensed dealer and underwent a background check.
 
GDB
Posts: 15401
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 4:41 pm

Crime, so murder, even mass murder, is as many know investigated by looking at Means, Motive and Opportunity.
Means, he had access to the car to drive to his pre scouted targets, more importantly he had the firearms.
Opportunity, it was planned, well in advance, he created the opportunity, it was not opportunistic after all.
Motive, well there is this, the huge (GOP?) elephant in the room;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... r-and-over
 
wingman
Posts: 4299
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 4:59 pm

TriJets wrote:
Yet instances of defensive gun use still dramatically outnumber gun homicides in the US.


What's your source for this statement? Most of what I can find online says the exact opposite:
https://vpc.org/revealing-the-impacts-o ... e-gun-use/
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fire ... tfact.html (claims stats unknown and difficult to measure)

I agree with you in principle, we'll never outlaw guns in this country and we shouldn't. But we should regulate them the same way we do driving and insurance. Don't forget, blacks only used to be 2/3rds of a human being and women had to stay and home and STFU. We can change and we should when the goal is positive change. There's nothing positive about the status quo.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15517
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: 10 killed in Buffalo mass shooting.

Tue May 17, 2022 5:00 pm

GDB wrote:
Crime, so murder, even mass murder, is as many know investigated by looking at Means, Motive and Opportunity.
Means, he had access to the car to drive to his pre scouted targets, more importantly he had the firearms.
Opportunity, it was planned, well in advance, he created the opportunity, it was not opportunistic after all.
Motive, well there is this, the huge (GOP?) elephant in the room;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... r-and-over



This is why people should stop paying attention to far right news sources. They have changed something, that is statistically true based on demographic changes. into a tool to drive fear into the weak minded.

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