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Newark727
Posts: 3044
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:19 am

TriJets wrote:
Sure, but the difference is that there is no absolute right to owning a vehicle in the Constitution. A lot of the safety measures that were implemented to make driving safer would likely be seen as an undue burden on the poor if applied to actual constitutional rights. Measures like mandating insurance for gun owners would likely be struck down as unlawful for that reason.


But that's interesting, isn't it? I'd say being deprived of a vehicle would be a far greater infringement on my rights, in practical terms, than being deprived of a weapon in about 99% of circumstances.
 
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seb146
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:20 am

The party of "every life"....

why bother
 
TriJets
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:20 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

No real way to prevent that, however plentiful means to reduce it drastically, something accomplished by every other developed country.

Many of us have suggested what could be done to tackle preventable shootings and reduce overall death and injury rates, but as they often involve compromise and universal access to services without personal expense, they will not be implemented. Not enough Americans will countenance them.

There’s only so much outrage we can spare. It’s your nation’s children dying by the dozens, if that doesn’t change anyone’s mind then nothing will. Your penance to bear.


What are your suggestions, specifically?


I’d say amending the constitution would be a solid start. We could make the penalties for owning a security blankey unpopular to the point that it’s not worth owning one.


There's zero chance of that happening. Public support for repealing the 2A is essentially nil and you need a huge majority as well as 39 states to agree to it. It's simply not even a realistic consideration.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:22 am

TriJets wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
TriJets wrote:

What are your suggestions, specifically?


I don’t have the means to look and search extensively right now, but a look at what Australia did after the Port Arthur massacre would be a good place to start. A glance at what the UK’s regulations are would also be insightful.


Those regulations are impossible in the US as they would run afoul of the 2A, and there is zero chance of the 2A being changed in our lifetimes. There's no will for it, even amongst Democrats. In the Gallup poll I posted earlier in this thread, only 19% of Americans were even in favor of a handgun ban. Changing something like the 2A would likely require 80% of the population to support it, yet the trend is going the other direction entirely.


Amendments are not permanent. If people won’t ask for change because of a law, but won’t question the law, then you won’t accomplish anything. ‘The law is the law and it can’t be changed because it’s the law’ is a meagre excuse. It’s up to the collective, and the collective has decided they don’t care enough to change it. That means all the deaths and suffering are on them.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:23 am

seb146 wrote:
The party of "every life"....

why bother


They remind me of the malt liquor at the bottom of 40oz bottles that are filled with cigarette butts the morning after a high school party.
 
Newark727
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:24 am

TriJets wrote:
There's zero chance of that happening. Public support for repealing the 2A is essentially nil and you need a huge majority as well as 39 states to agree to it. It's simply not even a realistic consideration.


It's a constitution, not a suicide pact.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:26 am

TriJets wrote:
They can't even do that in nations where guns are heavily regulated (see the numerous gun massacres in Paris since 2001).

14 mass shootings in France since 2001.
 
TriJets
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:27 am

MrHMSH wrote:
TriJets wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

I don’t have the means to look and search extensively right now, but a look at what Australia did after the Port Arthur massacre would be a good place to start. A glance at what the UK’s regulations are would also be insightful.


Those regulations are impossible in the US as they would run afoul of the 2A, and there is zero chance of the 2A being changed in our lifetimes. There's no will for it, even amongst Democrats. In the Gallup poll I posted earlier in this thread, only 19% of Americans were even in favor of a handgun ban. Changing something like the 2A would likely require 80% of the population to support it, yet the trend is going the other direction entirely.


Amendments are not permanent. If people won’t ask for change because of a law, but won’t question the law, then you won’t accomplish anything. ‘The law is the law and it can’t be changed because it’s the law’ is a meagre excuse. It’s up to the collective, and the collective has decided they don’t care enough to change it. That means all the deaths and suffering are on them.


Sure, amendments are not permanent, but there is zero chance of the second being repealed. As I said earlier, there is essentially zero public support for doing so and for it to be possible you'd need 39 out of 50 states to agree to it. You'd be hard pressed to even get one state to ratify that change.
 
TriJets
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:28 am

Newark727 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
There's zero chance of that happening. Public support for repealing the 2A is essentially nil and you need a huge majority as well as 39 states to agree to it. It's simply not even a realistic consideration.


It's a constitution, not a suicide pact.


Sure, and it is something that has zero chance of changing. In fact, gun ownership has skyrocketed over the past two years so the chances of it ever getting even a sizeable minority of public support drop every day. After the pandemic and civil Unrest recently people recognize that the government can't be relied upon for protection. Look at the Gallup link I posted earlier...only 19% of Americans favor even a ban on handguns and that number drops every time they ask the question.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:30 am

TriJets wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Those regulations are impossible in the US as they would run afoul of the 2A, and there is zero chance of the 2A being changed in our lifetimes. There's no will for it, even amongst Democrats. In the Gallup poll I posted earlier in this thread, only 19% of Americans were even in favor of a handgun ban. Changing something like the 2A would likely require 80% of the population to support it, yet the trend is going the other direction entirely.


Amendments are not permanent. If people won’t ask for change because of a law, but won’t question the law, then you won’t accomplish anything. ‘The law is the law and it can’t be changed because it’s the law’ is a meagre excuse. It’s up to the collective, and the collective has decided they don’t care enough to change it. That means all the deaths and suffering are on them.


Sure, amendments are not permanent, but there is zero chance of the second being repealed. As I said earlier, there is essentially zero public support for doing so and for it to be possible you'd need 39 out of 50 states to agree to it. You'd be hard pressed to even get one state to ratify that change.


This implies that there won’t be change because there is no desire for change. If the American public don’t want change and thus don’t ask for it, then there will be none. With that being the case, best to just accept that a majority of Americans don’t care much that their own children are getting shot, and their own people are being killed by the thousands. I don’t like such a callous disregard for death and suffering, but again, your penance to bear, not mine.
 
TriJets
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:32 am

MrHMSH wrote:
TriJets wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

Amendments are not permanent. If people won’t ask for change because of a law, but won’t question the law, then you won’t accomplish anything. ‘The law is the law and it can’t be changed because it’s the law’ is a meagre excuse. It’s up to the collective, and the collective has decided they don’t care enough to change it. That means all the deaths and suffering are on them.


Sure, amendments are not permanent, but there is zero chance of the second being repealed. As I said earlier, there is essentially zero public support for doing so and for it to be possible you'd need 39 out of 50 states to agree to it. You'd be hard pressed to even get one state to ratify that change.


This implies that there won’t be change because there is no desire for change. If the American public don’t want change and thus don’t ask for it, then there will be none. With that being the case, best to just accept that a majority of Americans don’t care much that their own children are getting shot, and their own people are being killed by the thousands. I don’t like such a callous disregard for death and suffering, but again, your penance to bear, not mine.


I'd argue that the numbers show that most of the American public correctly recognizes that their risk of being harmed in a mass shooting is dwarfed by their risk of having their door kicked in by a criminal in the middle of the night, so they vote for protection from the more likely scenario.
 
kelval
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:35 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
If gun control is not an option, what do people recommend?.


Typically, they’ll moronically suggest more guns. They’re simply stupid. There’s no other way to describe it. Often it’s some bullshit adage about “when police are minutes away, seconds count”. Not the sharpest folks we have here in the US.

The reality about gun folks are that they are, for lack of a better term, “‘fraidy’ cats”, and are afraid of everything. They’re scared of non-white folks, any sort of change or progress, vaccines, masks etc.

I’m not sure where it stems from but one overarching thing I’ve seen is simply being afraid of way too much stuff. You’d think with their reassurances from god and their pastor they chill out but apparently not.

Another way to say it would be"Americans are a bunch of paranoid".

The "beauty" of it is that it self feeds : the guys around me have guns so I need more guns. And so on for every and each of them.

And each time it makes the place that more dangerous, wich in return calls for more weapons from the neighbours...
Last edited by kelval on Wed May 25, 2022 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:37 am

TriJets wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Sure, amendments are not permanent, but there is zero chance of the second being repealed. As I said earlier, there is essentially zero public support for doing so and for it to be possible you'd need 39 out of 50 states to agree to it. You'd be hard pressed to even get one state to ratify that change.


This implies that there won’t be change because there is no desire for change. If the American public don’t want change and thus don’t ask for it, then there will be none. With that being the case, best to just accept that a majority of Americans don’t care much that their own children are getting shot, and their own people are being killed by the thousands. I don’t like such a callous disregard for death and suffering, but again, your penance to bear, not mine.


I'd argue that the numbers show that most of the American public correctly recognizes that their risk of being harmed in a mass shooting is dwarfed by their risk of having their door kicked in by a criminal in the middle of the night, so they vote for protection from the more likely scenario.


Good for them. Of course it also means that they’re far more likely to suffer gun violence overall, because the stats plainly show the US has much higher rates for deaths and shootings.

If they pursued strong regulations they’d reduce the number of guns available to potential criminals, have fewer accidents. However they won’t. So the deaths are just a necessary price to pay.
 
Newark727
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:40 am

TriJets wrote:
I'd argue that the numbers show that most of the American public correctly recognizes that their risk of being harmed in a mass shooting is dwarfed by their risk of having their door kicked in by a criminal in the middle of the night, so they vote for protection from the more likely scenario.


The weird part is, the gun doesn't actually help with that.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25910555/

Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that SDGU is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.

(SDGU = self-defensive gun use)
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:41 am

kelval wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
If gun control is not an option, what do people recommend?.


Typically, they’ll moronically suggest more guns. They’re simply stupid. There’s no other way to describe it. Often it’s some bullshit adage about “when police are minutes away, seconds count”. Not the sharpest folks we have here in the US.

The reality about gun folks are that they are, for lack of a better term, “‘fraidy’ cats”, and are afraid of everything. They’re scared of non-white folks, any sort of change or progress, vaccines, masks etc.

I’m not sure where it stems from but one overarching thing I’ve seen is simply being afraid of way too much stuff. You’d think with their reassurances from god and their pastor they chill out but apparently not.

Another way to say it would be"Americans are a bunch of paranoid".

The "beauty" of it is that it self feeds : the guys around me have guns so I need more guns. And so on for every and each of them.

And each time it makes the place that more dangerous, wich in return calls for more weapons from the neighbours...


Exactly. I’ve met a few gun people and it’s crazy how frightened they are of everything.

I’m not sure where it’s from but I often see religion and lack of education to be consistent.
 
Kent350787
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:43 am

TriJets wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Sure, amendments are not permanent, but there is zero chance of the second being repealed. As I said earlier, there is essentially zero public support for doing so and for it to be possible you'd need 39 out of 50 states to agree to it. You'd be hard pressed to even get one state to ratify that change.


This implies that there won’t be change because there is no desire for change. If the American public don’t want change and thus don’t ask for it, then there will be none. With that being the case, best to just accept that a majority of Americans don’t care much that their own children are getting shot, and their own people are being killed by the thousands. I don’t like such a callous disregard for death and suffering, but again, your penance to bear, not mine.


I'd argue that the numbers show that most of the American public correctly recognizes that their risk of being harmed in a mass shooting is dwarfed by their risk of having their door kicked in by a criminal in the middle of the night, so they vote for protection from the more likely scenario.


Polling suggest that, of the 40% of US households with guns, around 60% have chosen to own them to protect themselves.

The same polling shows slight majority support for stricter gun control, but very strong support for stopping the mentally ill from purchasing and subjecting gun show purchases to background checks. 2/3 of respondents also supported a Federal database of gun sales, and almost as many support bans on high capacity magazines and assault rifles. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... -and-guns/
Last edited by Kent350787 on Wed May 25, 2022 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TriJets
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 5:55 am

Newark727 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
I'd argue that the numbers show that most of the American public correctly recognizes that their risk of being harmed in a mass shooting is dwarfed by their risk of having their door kicked in by a criminal in the middle of the night, so they vote for protection from the more likely scenario.


The weird part is, the gun doesn't actually help with that.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25910555/

Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that SDGU is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.

(SDGU = self-defensive gun use)


Yet there is other data showing that there are hundreds of thousands of successful instances of DGU each year-

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com ... 94461.html

I can personally attest to how our firearm likely saved my wife's life during our home invasion. Of course, each person has to weigh the pros and cons and come to their own decision.
 
Newark727
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 6:05 am

TriJets wrote:
Yet there is other data showing that there are hundreds of thousands of successful instances of DGU each year-

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com ... 94461.html

I can personally attest to how our firearm likely saved my wife's life during our home invasion. Of course, each person has to weigh the pros and cons and come to their own decision.


The whole point of the study I linked is that it doesn't matter how many of them there are, because the outcome isn't actually any better. All of those guns could have been magically replaced with brickbats and sharp sticks, and, in the aggregate, very little would change. We're not suffering these elementary school massacres so that people can protect their homes, we're suffering them for the sake of a collective delusion.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 6:29 am

Would it be legally possible to legislate bullets?

Jack up the price to, say, 1000$ each.
Only sell bullets at government controlled stores. Make them part of police stations or military barracks or some other place that knows how to safely handle them and how to vet people.

To keep the sport side of guns active, bullets can still be sold at licensed gun ranges. Bullets there would be sold cheaply, but those bullets are not allowed to leave the range. Mark their bullets to make sure they don’t. If a bullet from range XYZ is found outside the range, close the range and prosecute the owner of the range as well as the guy that carries/shot the bullet outside the range.
 
M564038
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 6:38 am

Really? Is that so self-evident in questions regarding lethal weapons? Would it not be better for experts to find a common solution on a societal level?

Seems like a lot of countries going that route is a lot safer than the US.

TriJets wrote:
Of course, each person has to weigh the pros and cons and come to their own decision.
 
Vintage
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 7:01 am

TriJets wrote:
Yet there is other data showing that there are hundreds of thousands of successful instances of DGU each year-
https://www.realclearinvestigations.com ... 94461.html

There is so much wrong in the way you present your argument for guns in every home (or most homes, or whatever), that it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion.
You misuse statistics and use anecdotal tales (as does your citation) as if these personal tales held any merit in a discussion on national gun policy: they don't.

You say, or imply, that there are hundreds of thousands of defensive gun uses each year. Your link shows only 100,000: The U.S. Department of Justice’s National Crime Victimization Survey indicates that around 100,000 defensive gun uses occur each year. Your site, Real Clear Investigations, alludes to more, but only provides a link to a book with a clearly biased POV. In the end, your link accepts the DOJ survey and so do I.

Here are more facts from a reputable source.
In 2020, there were 45,222 firearm-related deaths in the United States.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/ ... tfact.html
and
There are approximately 115,000 non-fatal firearm injuries in the U.S. each year.

Those are the numbers to be used in a discussion about gun policy. The 20,000 number your site tries to pass off only deals with murders, not total gun deaths.

Real Clear Investigations headlined: There are far more defensive gun uses than murders, as if that's startling information; simply put, that's to be expected.
Then your site goes on to provide anecdotal stories about gun use in the same argument that it provides statistical information. As mentioned anecdotal vignettes are meaningless in this discussion. So if you want to actually discuss gun policy you'll need to come up with better sources/arguments than those found at the Real Clear investigations site.

To repeat from above.
TriJets wrote:
I can personally attest to how our firearm likely saved my wife's life during our home invasion. Of course, each person has to weigh the pros and cons and come to their own decision.
Your personal attestations are just another anecdotal story; thus, are meaningless in a discussion of national gun policy.
Last edited by Vintage on Wed May 25, 2022 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 7:09 am

william wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
william wrote:
Seriously, how does one do that? They will just be replaced with illegal imported guns. Can't stop drugs from coming into the country, you expect to stop guns? I guess it would give the dealer on the street corner another product to sell.


Restricting guns will mean demand outstripping supplies. Prices will go up to a point where only the most organized of criminals can afford guns - and these guys don't go around committing petty crimes.


You are correct except the last part. Illegal guns will not be expensive. Market forces work in the crime world too. The same reason people in California are still buy marijuana from the guy on the street instead of going to a Dispensary, its cheaper.


If guns are basically illegal outside law enforcement and military, most gun manufacturers will go out of business or become 1% or the size they are now. Millions less guns will be manufactured. Over time, that can only mean fewer, more expensive guns. You can't plant a seed and get guns. Admittedly, there is 3D printing, but would people really trust such a gun to not blow up their hand ?
 
Vintage
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 7:15 am

Aesma wrote:
If guns are basically illegal outside law enforcement and military, most gun manufacturers will go out of business or become 1% or the size they are now. Millions less guns will be manufactured. Over time, that can only mean fewer, more expensive guns. You can't plant a seed and get guns. Admittedly, there is 3D printing, but would people really trust such a gun to not blow up their hand ?
Making guns illegal is only part of it. the mystique has to be removed from guns.

One thing has to be done is to eliminate the premise or pretext that guns can be used to overthrow the government. That nonsense has to come to an end, and if a thousand people have to spend the rest of their lives in prison over that issue, so be it.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 7:25 am

Vintage wrote:
Aesma wrote:
If guns are basically illegal outside law enforcement and military, most gun manufacturers will go out of business or become 1% or the size they are now. Millions less guns will be manufactured. Over time, that can only mean fewer, more expensive guns. You can't plant a seed and get guns. Admittedly, there is 3D printing, but would people really trust such a gun to not blow up their hand ?
Making guns illegal is only part of it. the mystique has to be removed from guns.

One thing has to be done is to eliminate the premise or pretext that guns can be used to overthrow the government. That nonsense has to come to an end, and if a thousand people have to spend the rest of their lives in prison over that issue, so be it.


At the same time, a way to create space for the future prisoners is to stop imprisonment of non violent and drug offenses.

If they could simply keep their own people under control, we wouldn’t have come for their guns.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 7:34 am

victrola wrote:
Well, them kids died because of our God given 2nd amendment rights. But hey, freedom isn't free. God Bless 'Murica, the greatest freest country in the world. I would gladly take dozens of these sacrifices every year rather than live under the tyrannical gun laws of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Western Europe. (sarcasm).


Where we all live in constant fear of our own governments because we don't have those well regulated militias. Oh wait...
 
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sebolino
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 7:37 am

This is, as usual, unbelievable and horrific.
And as usual, you'll have the crowd of morons who don't care as long as they can buy guns because "it's our right".
And, you know, it's because "the bad guys" (whatever it means) will always find a way to have guns anyway. What a stupid argument.

And again, the republicans will block any change to the law as they're the puppets of the NRA.
See you in a few, for the next mass shooting !
 
cpd
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 7:52 am

scbriml wrote:
victrola wrote:
Well, them kids died because of our God given 2nd amendment rights. But hey, freedom isn't free. God Bless 'Murica, the greatest freest country in the world. I would gladly take dozens of these sacrifices every year rather than live under the tyrannical gun laws of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Western Europe. (sarcasm).


Where we all live in constant fear of our own governments because we don't have those well regulated militias. Oh wait...


I know, it’s so scary. I voted my government out.

Tyrannical, hmm, don’t think so. But sadly that’s the nuisance language used in the USA by some who probably haven’t lived here. Meanwhile more people die in these shootings. :(

Soon the moderators can just have a USA shootings mega topic. :(
 
Vintage
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 8:01 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
At the same time, a way to create space for the future prisoners is to stop imprisonment of non violent and drug offenses.

Those are two different things, I believe that drug laws serve no positive purpose and drugs should be legalized, but you say non violent too.

Nonviolent crime cannot be tolerated, be it shoplifting, auto theft or securities fraud.

However, the purpose of our federal (and state) government has to be re-aligned, if we continue solely being a vehicle of support for the super rich and just see the common person as a commodity, this nation will come to an end. I remember a time when there were no homeless; that was before the word billionaire was ever uttered.
 
FGITD
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 8:19 am

Vintage wrote:

One thing has to be done is to eliminate the premise or pretext that guns can be used to overthrow the government. That nonsense has to come to an end, and if a thousand people have to spend the rest of their lives in prison over that issue, so be it.


Which is made doubly funny by the fact that Americans on the whole have shown that they’ll tolerate pretty much anything the government will (or won’t) do…with the exception of threats against gun ownership.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 8:24 am

william wrote:
victrola wrote:
Well, them kids died because of our God given 2nd amendment rights. But hey, freedom isn't free. God Bless 'Murica, the greatest freest country in the world. I would gladly take dozens of these sacrifices every year rather than live under the tyrannical gun laws of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Western Europe. (sarcasm).


So you mean ban guns right? Because the Cartels would not fill in the gap with illegal guns?

https://vlaamsvredesinstituut.eu/wp-con ... _in_eu.pdf

Europe have their own problems.


Nowhere is free of problems, but having your kids massacred at school on a regular basis isn't one of them.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 8:26 am

A101 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
A101 wrote:
Terrible news I just cannot understand the mentality of doing such a deranged act, its cases like this I'm all for the death penalty


The gunman is apparently already dead.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state ... lty-states
Since 1976 Texas has executed nearly five times as many prisoners as the next highest state. Clearly, it's of no deterrence whatsoever.


The after effects is never a factor of those who commit such heinous crimes, but it certainly fits the nature and penalty for committing such a crime


Only if all you're interested in is revenge lust.
 
SL1200MK2
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 8:27 am

Vintage wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
At the same time, a way to create space for the future prisoners is to stop imprisonment of non violent and drug offenses.

Those are two different things, I believe that drug laws serve no positive purpose and drugs should be legalized, but you say non violent too.

Nonviolent crime cannot be tolerated, be it shoplifting, auto theft or securities fraud.

However, the purpose of our federal (and state) government has to be re-aligned, if we continue solely being a vehicle of support for the super rich and just see the common person as a commodity, this nation will come to an end. I remember a time when there were no homeless; that was before the word billionaire was ever uttered.


Good points. Now that I think about it, if drugs were legalized, I’d imagine a drastic reduction in many of the non-violent crimes you mentioned. Those left would be skewed towards the white collar criminal and I see their crimes more tied to greed and power than poverty and addiction. As such, I’m for locking them up as well.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 21229
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 8:29 am

ACDC8 wrote:
God bless the 2nd Amendment :sarcastic:


Hallelujah, praise the lord!

Those kids were sacrificed on the altar of the gun. The almost total lack of empathy shown in this thread is shocking. I can't wait to hear Alex Jones take on this.
 
art
Posts: 4965
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 8:44 am

Kent350787 wrote:
It is absolutely shocking that the US can't seem to even start to deal with gun homicide


A lot of foreigners see the people of the US as somewhat crazy in that they have a serious, persistent problem yet decline to take any steps to alleviate it..

“The U.S. government is prioritizing gun ownership over basic human rights. While many solutions have been offered, there has been a stunning lack of political will to save lives,” said Margaret Huang, executive director of Amnesty International USA. “Despite the huge number of guns in circulation and the sheer numbers of people killed by guns each year, there is a shocking lack of federal regulations that could save thousands.”


https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... ts-crisis/

PS Deaths through guns each year in US 30,000+
Wounding through guns each year IN US ??? - I have seen a figure of 700,000+ a year
Last edited by art on Wed May 25, 2022 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4524
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 8:51 am

TriJets wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Yes. We'll never be able to bring the number of these incidents to zero. They can't even do that in nations where guns are heavily regulated (see the numerous gun massacres in Paris since 2001). All we can do is try to reduce their frequency while at the same time balancing people's rights. As the NYT article I linked to earlier stated, mass shooting deaths make up ~1% of firearms deaths in this country. One could argue that we'd be better served trying to tackle the normal violence that accounts for the other 99%.


Exactly, removing guns from the other 99% is necessary as well. Heck, let’s shoot for what heavily regulated nations see in the number of gun deaths.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/upsh ... world.html


Removing all guns is not only incredibly unpopular but is also unconstitutional, so it is a non-starter. Best to focus on disarming criminals and the insane, as that is actually legal.


So if the constitution wasn't a blocker for this you'd be for increased gun control?

The simple change is rather then removing guns from those determined to be criminals or insane that a gun is withheld until you demonstrate that you aren't a criminal or insane?

Fred
 
Kent350787
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 8:56 am

cpd wrote:
scbriml wrote:
victrola wrote:
Well, them kids died because of our God given 2nd amendment rights. But hey, freedom isn't free. God Bless 'Murica, the greatest freest country in the world. I would gladly take dozens of these sacrifices every year rather than live under the tyrannical gun laws of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Western Europe. (sarcasm).


Where we all live in constant fear of our own governments because we don't have those well regulated militias. Oh wait...


I know, it’s so scary. I voted my government out.

Tyrannical, hmm, don’t think so. But sadly that’s the nuisance language used in the USA by some who probably haven’t lived here. Meanwhile more people die in these shootings. :(

Soon the moderators can just have a USA shootings mega topic. :(


I've suggested the US shootings mega topic before ( I know at least one Aussie forum I'm on has one) but there seems to be no interest. Perhaps posting a new thread on every new mass shooting drives traffic?
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 594
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 9:07 am

ACDC8 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
They can't even do that in nations where guns are heavily regulated (see the numerous gun massacres in Paris since 2001).

14 mass shootings in France since 2001.


Wait what ? Would you be so kind to point to a source for this claim, because Wiki disagrees. And frankly can't recall that much shootings in my country in the last 20 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_shootings_in_France

In which most are islamic terrorism : Merah in Toulouse, Charlie Hebdo, Bataclan, Strasbourg...
 
cpd
Posts: 7373
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 9:38 am

I’m angry that so many people died.

But then reading this (use private window):

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-amer ... 5aoil.html

Damn. :( If that was what really led to all of this and eventually sent him over the edge, damn.

I don’t have any other words.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 2586
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 9:47 am

cpd wrote:
I’m angry that so many people died.

But then reading this (use private window):

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-amer ... 5aoil.html

Damn. :( If that was what really led to all of this and eventually sent him over the edge, damn.

I don’t have any other words.


To be honest, while it's bad that he got bullied, it's no excuse to go on a rampage and kill people who aren't even the ones who bullied him.

Many people faced mental anguish before. I for one was a victim of bullying as a child, but never have I ever thought of shooting people dead.
 
M564038
Posts: 1152
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 9:58 am

And most don’t. But bullying, in this case combined with a broken home and the lack of social security in the US, can be extremely dangerous. It is dehumanizing. If you aren’t treated as a human being, how can you be expected to treat others as human beings. How would you even know how that works? It’s a very high risk gamble for society to allow children to be treated that way! Not only for their hurt, but for everyone’s potential hurt.

Throw guns in there as well! Great stuff!
America!

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
cpd wrote:
I’m angry that so many people died.

But then reading this (use private window):

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-amer ... 5aoil.html

Damn. :( If that was what really led to all of this and eventually sent him over the edge, damn.

I don’t have any other words.


To be honest, while it's bad that he got bullied, it's no excuse to go on a rampage and kill people who aren't even the ones who bullied him.

Many people faced mental anguish before. I for one was a victim of bullying as a child, but never have I ever thought of shooting people dead.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14293
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 10:01 am

[code][/code]
SEAorPWM wrote:
Christ... this is almost like a Sandy Hook repeat. I expect the outcome to also be the same.


Almost like, it’s almost exactly the same.

The sadly Sandy Hock want the wake-up call needed and this won’t change either.

Unborn children are more important to a large part of the population than those who were wanted and born.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14293
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 10:27 am

hh65man wrote:
I am a expat from Texas, left the U.S. more then 20 years ago. Now make rare visits home to see my father or family. Just recently visited with my lovely Viking goddess (yep from Norge). Told her if she spots anyone with a firearm to let me know, we would be leaving the store, restaurant, wherever immediately. I don’t trust anyone I don’t know personally, and even a few I do know with a gun. Sense thoughts and prayers don’t work I won’t waste my breath. Ill just shake my head instead.


Funny you should call your Norwegian a Viking, I’m sure Norwegians who were Vikings would be ok with mass murders, modern day Norwegians who are not in any way Vikings are quite rightly horrified by them.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 14293
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 10:32 am

TriJets wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
TriJets wrote:

What are your suggestions, specifically?


I’d say amending the constitution would be a solid start. We could make the penalties for owning a security blankey unpopular to the point that it’s not worth owning one.


There's zero chance of that happening. Public support for repealing the 2A is essentially nil and you need a huge majority as well as 39 states to agree to it. It's simply not even a realistic consideration.


Full automatic weapons were banned, now it’s time to ban all semi automatic weapons and bring in licensing, mandatory training and background checks to ensure responsible ownership of firearms. We know this won’t stop the carnage but in a few years it will be slowly turn a corner and stop becoming a normal everyday occurrence. The criminals who have guns aren’t usually killing kids in school or people are the supermarket they are killing other criminals.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 18130
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 10:50 am

art wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
It is absolutely shocking that the US can't seem to even start to deal with gun homicide


A lot of foreigners see the people of the US as somewhat crazy in that they have a serious, persistent problem yet decline to take any steps to alleviate it..


Because foreigners only see the economic success of major US metros and don't grasp the depth of wanton stupidity and uncritical thinking that typifies at least half the populace or more.

But yes, it's completely crazy that virtually nothing has been done to seriously address violent crime in decades, partly due to politics and partly due cultural inability to commit to multigenerational problem solving. Americans very much have an instant gratification cultural mindset, and do not see much value or utility in long-term effort of this kind.
 
TriJets
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 10:55 am

Newark727 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
Yet there is other data showing that there are hundreds of thousands of successful instances of DGU each year-

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com ... 94461.html

I can personally attest to how our firearm likely saved my wife's life during our home invasion. Of course, each person has to weigh the pros and cons and come to their own decision.


The whole point of the study I linked is that it doesn't matter how many of them there are, because the outcome isn't actually any better. All of those guns could have been magically replaced with brickbats and sharp sticks, and, in the aggregate, very little would change. We're not suffering these elementary school massacres so that people can protect their homes, we're suffering them for the sake of a collective delusion.


And the studies I linked to, as well as my own personal experience, suggest otherwise. The best way to defend yourself against a criminal who has a gun is with a gun.
 
TriJets
Posts: 410
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 10:57 am

petertenthije wrote:
Would it be legally possible to legislate bullets?

Jack up the price to, say, 1000$ each.
Only sell bullets at government controlled stores. Make them part of police stations or military barracks or some other place that knows how to safely handle them and how to vet people.

To keep the sport side of guns active, bullets can still be sold at licensed gun ranges. Bullets there would be sold cheaply, but those bullets are not allowed to leave the range. Mark their bullets to make sure they don’t. If a bullet from range XYZ is found outside the range, close the range and prosecute the owner of the range as well as the guy that carries/shot the bullet outside the range.


That would almost certainly be ruled as unconstitutional.
 
TriJets
Posts: 410
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 10:59 am

Vintage wrote:
TriJets wrote:
Yet there is other data showing that there are hundreds of thousands of successful instances of DGU each year-
https://www.realclearinvestigations.com ... 94461.html

There is so much wrong in the way you present your argument for guns in every home (or most homes, or whatever), that it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion.
You misuse statistics and use anecdotal tales (as does your citation) as if these personal tales held any merit in a discussion on national gun policy: they don't.

You say, or imply, that there are hundreds of thousands of defensive gun uses each year. Your link shows only 100,000: The U.S. Department of Justice’s National Crime Victimization Survey indicates that around 100,000 defensive gun uses occur each year. Your site, Real Clear Investigations, alludes to more, but only provides a link to a book with a clearly biased POV. In the end, your link accepts the DOJ survey and so do I.

Here are more facts from a reputable source.
In 2020, there were 45,222 firearm-related deaths in the United States.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/ ... tfact.html
and
There are approximately 115,000 non-fatal firearm injuries in the U.S. each year.

Those are the numbers to be used in a discussion about gun policy. The 20,000 number your site tries to pass off only deals with murders, not total gun deaths.

Real Clear Investigations headlined: There are far more defensive gun uses than murders, as if that's startling information; simply put, that's to be expected.
Then your site goes on to provide anecdotal stories about gun use in the same argument that it provides statistical information. As mentioned anecdotal vignettes are meaningless in this discussion. So if you want to actually discuss gun policy you'll need to come up with better sources/arguments than those found at the Real Clear investigations site.

To repeat from above.
TriJets wrote:
I can personally attest to how our firearm likely saved my wife's life during our home invasion. Of course, each person has to weigh the pros and cons and come to their own decision.
Your personal attestations are just another anecdotal story; thus, are meaningless in a discussion of national gun policy.


The plural of anecdotes is data. The shooting we are discussing now in Texas is an anecdote. And even if you only accept the 100,000 figure, that is still 5x the number of gun homicides each year.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4524
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:01 am

TriJets wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Would it be legally possible to legislate bullets?

Jack up the price to, say, 1000$ each.
Only sell bullets at government controlled stores. Make them part of police stations or military barracks or some other place that knows how to safely handle them and how to vet people.

To keep the sport side of guns active, bullets can still be sold at licensed gun ranges. Bullets there would be sold cheaply, but those bullets are not allowed to leave the range. Mark their bullets to make sure they don’t. If a bullet from range XYZ is found outside the range, close the range and prosecute the owner of the range as well as the guy that carries/shot the bullet outside the range.


That would almost certainly be ruled as unconstitutional.

Regardless of the constitutional constraint, do you think it a goood idea?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
TriJets
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:09 am

flipdewaf wrote:
TriJets wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:

Exactly, removing guns from the other 99% is necessary as well. Heck, let’s shoot for what heavily regulated nations see in the number of gun deaths.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/upsh ... world.html


Removing all guns is not only incredibly unpopular but is also unconstitutional, so it is a non-starter. Best to focus on disarming criminals and the insane, as that is actually legal.


So if the constitution wasn't a blocker for this you'd be for increased gun control?

The simple change is rather then removing guns from those determined to be criminals or insane that a gun is withheld until you demonstrate that you aren't a criminal or insane?

Fred


If the constitution didn't block it, and if guns were already rare and not so prevalent, I'd certainly be in favor of it. As it currently stands, I'm in favor of closing the gun show/private sale loophole, better red flag laws, and increased penalties for those found to possess and/or use firearms illegally.
 
TriJets
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:11 am

flipdewaf wrote:
TriJets wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
Would it be legally possible to legislate bullets?

Jack up the price to, say, 1000$ each.
Only sell bullets at government controlled stores. Make them part of police stations or military barracks or some other place that knows how to safely handle them and how to vet people.

To keep the sport side of guns active, bullets can still be sold at licensed gun ranges. Bullets there would be sold cheaply, but those bullets are not allowed to leave the range. Mark their bullets to make sure they don’t. If a bullet from range XYZ is found outside the range, close the range and prosecute the owner of the range as well as the guy that carries/shot the bullet outside the range.


That would almost certainly be ruled as unconstitutional.

Regardless of the constitutional constraint, do you think it a goood idea?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, because not only would it make it impossible for poor people to defend themselves, but it would turn the ammo hoarders into instant millionaires.
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