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flipdewaf
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:12 am

TriJets wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
TriJets wrote:

That would almost certainly be ruled as unconstitutional.

Regardless of the constitutional constraint, do you think it a goood idea?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, because not only would it make it impossible for poor people to defend themselves, but it would turn the ammo hoarders into instant millionaires.

How about ammunition being registered and the owner being held accountable for it’s reasonable use?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:13 am

TriJets wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
TriJets wrote:

Removing all guns is not only incredibly unpopular but is also unconstitutional, so it is a non-starter. Best to focus on disarming criminals and the insane, as that is actually legal.


So if the constitution wasn't a blocker for this you'd be for increased gun control?

The simple change is rather then removing guns from those determined to be criminals or insane that a gun is withheld until you demonstrate that you aren't a criminal or insane?

Fred


If the constitution didn't block it, and if guns were already rare and not so prevalent, I'd certainly be in favor of it. As it currently stands, I'm in favor of closing the gun show/private sale loophole, better red flag laws, and increased penalties for those found to possess and/or use firearms illegally.


As discussed in other threads, just as unlikely as 2A repeal. Conservatives and libertarians would never allow the massive expansion of the ATF that would be necessary to actually have a crack at the illegal firearms trade - most of which is still controlled by transnational organized crime networks.
 
TriJets
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:14 am

flipdewaf wrote:
TriJets wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Regardless of the constitutional constraint, do you think it a goood idea?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No, because not only would it make it impossible for poor people to defend themselves, but it would turn the ammo hoarders into instant millionaires.

How about ammunition being registered and the owner being held accountable for it’s reasonable use?

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That sounds reasonable to me.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:15 am

Vintage wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
At the same time, a way to create space for the future prisoners is to stop imprisonment of non violent and drug offenses.

Those are two different things, I believe that drug laws serve no positive purpose and drugs should be legalized, but you say non violent too.

Nonviolent crime cannot be tolerated, be it shoplifting, auto theft or securities fraud.

However, the purpose of our federal (and state) government has to be re-aligned, if we continue solely being a vehicle of support for the super rich and just see the common person as a commodity, this nation will come to an end. I remember a time when there were no homeless; that was before the word billionaire was ever uttered.


I think the US is on its last few breaths. Our morals and ethics are rotten to the core. The gun in this case was a tool used by an evil person. Its not normal for someone to even think of doing this, yet we see almost daily acts of unthinkable violence. The question I ask is; how and why do we have some many people that can think and do these evil things? Where does that come from? How can so many people be that evil? What is causing people to act upon these evil thoughts?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:19 am

cpd wrote:
I’m angry that so many people died.

But then reading this (use private window):

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-amer ... 5aoil.html

Damn. :( If that was what really led to all of this and eventually sent him over the edge, damn.

I don’t have any other words.


But still no excuse to shot up a bunch of kids.

It is one thing if he shot up his school, even when that's not excusable. But shooting up a bunch of kids just bc he can?

The only thing that came out of his background is that he does fit the profile of mass shooters, but that's about it.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:21 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Vintage wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
At the same time, a way to create space for the future prisoners is to stop imprisonment of non violent and drug offenses.

Those are two different things, I believe that drug laws serve no positive purpose and drugs should be legalized, but you say non violent too.

Nonviolent crime cannot be tolerated, be it shoplifting, auto theft or securities fraud.

However, the purpose of our federal (and state) government has to be re-aligned, if we continue solely being a vehicle of support for the super rich and just see the common person as a commodity, this nation will come to an end. I remember a time when there were no homeless; that was before the word billionaire was ever uttered.


Good points. Now that I think about it, if drugs were legalized, I’d imagine a drastic reduction in many of the non-violent crimes you mentioned. Those left would be skewed towards the white collar criminal and I see their crimes more tied to greed and power than poverty and addiction. As such, I’m for locking them up as well.


I'm very libertarian in my view of drugs, live and let live. What do I care if you want to shoot poison into your veins, as long as you don't infringe upon the rights of others doing so. However, drug abuse almost always will lead to "non-violent" crimes. How else is a strung out heroine addict going to keep getting their fix? Like I said, I don't care about the drug use, rather the consequences of it. Do you think there is a wat to have drugs legal and not have addicts stealing? (serious question)
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:49 am

hh65man wrote:
I am a expat from Texas, left the U.S. more then 20 years ago. Now make rare visits home to see my father or family. Just recently visited with my lovely Viking goddess (yep from Norge). Told her if she spots anyone with a firearm to let me know, we would be leaving the store, restaurant, wherever immediately. I don’t trust anyone I don’t know personally, and even a few I do know with a gun. Sense thoughts and prayers don’t work I won’t waste my breath. Ill just shake my head instead.


You've got the right idea. My missus had enough as well and we're off to Tokyo. There's no way to help a patient who doesn't want to help themselves - and that's our society today.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:55 am

I see, as always many people enjoying the moment, despite the fact that 20 children died.

In any case, this issue is not a gun issue, nor a gun law issue. We had the same guns and gun laws for generations.

It is only since the 90's that this terrible trend of mass shootings have began. In the 60's, 70's, 80's this was not heard of.

Till we really look into the minds of these people who commit these horrible and atrocious killings, this will continue. You can if you like ban all guns, this won't stop, they will us a car or what ever. This phenomenon is new, guns and gun laws aren't new.

Perhaps we can look within, social media, social pressures, drugs, video games, lack of spirituality...etc. The debate should be focused on that too. Sensible gun laws targeting people with mental issues can also be a subject of discussion, but like I said, changing the laws won't change nothing.
Last edited by AirWorthy99 on Wed May 25, 2022 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
CometII
Posts: 405
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:55 am

Aaron747 wrote:
hh65man wrote:
I am a expat from Texas, left the U.S. more then 20 years ago. Now make rare visits home to see my father or family. Just recently visited with my lovely Viking goddess (yep from Norge). Told her if she spots anyone with a firearm to let me know, we would be leaving the store, restaurant, wherever immediately. I don’t trust anyone I don’t know personally, and even a few I do know with a gun. Sense thoughts and prayers don’t work I won’t waste my breath. Ill just shake my head instead.


You've got the right idea. My missus had enough as well and we're off to Tokyo.


It's an underreported phenomenon, but actually quietly lots of people, especially younger people, are just packing their bags. And it's not just about gun violence. Ask expats in Europe, Asia or South America and they will give you at least 10 reasons (guns, unafordable housing, lack of public healthcare, going to college is too expensive, rising racism towards Asian Americans, even increasing religious hate crimes against Jews, Muslims, in recent times). While everyone talks about the border problem, the people coming are desperately poor. In fact middle class Latin American immigration to the US has slowed markedly both from tighter borders but also people are shifting to other countries or just staying pat.

So it is not a single problem, it's just the USA is quite frankly not what it used to be. The decline now is palpable across most spheres and it's a bigger trend than the Biden or Trump presidencies.And it now includes institutional decline from elections not being respected, to congress gridlock, to even court (even Supreme court) institutional degradation.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:57 am

USA need to get there moral values sorted out and fast, and don't look to the church to do that for you.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 11:58 am

art wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
It is absolutely shocking that the US can't seem to even start to deal with gun homicide


A lot of foreigners see the people of the US as somewhat crazy in that they have a serious, persistent problem yet decline to take any steps to alleviate it..

“The U.S. government is prioritizing gun ownership over basic human rights. While many solutions have been offered, there has been a stunning lack of political will to save lives,” said Margaret Huang, executive director of Amnesty International USA. “Despite the huge number of guns in circulation and the sheer numbers of people killed by guns each year, there is a shocking lack of federal regulations that could save thousands.”


https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... ts-crisis/

PS Deaths through guns each year in US 30,000+
Wounding through guns each year IN US ??? - I have seen a figure of 700,000+ a year


This, and any school shooting or mass shooting of innocent people, is absolutely tragic and we need to explore what we can do to stop the evil that perpetuates these tragedies. With that said, here are the actual numbers for death statistics in the US in 2020:

There were 45,222 gun deaths in the US in 2020. Of those, 24,292 were suicide, 611 were legal intervention (law enforcement), 535 unintentional (accident), and 400 undetermined. If you remove the suicide, law enforcement, and accidental deaths that leaves you with 19,784. The US population is approximately 330M. That gives you a 0.000006% chance of being assaulted and killed by a gun . I argue that if you are not involved in criminal activity, its much lower.

There were only three people killed in school shootings in 2020, but 2020 is a bad year to look at that number since Covid keeps most kids home. There is also a trend up gun deaths rising with 2020 being the highest year since 1980 (first year on the charts in my link), with the low year being 2000 with 26,883. There has been a steady climb since.

The killing of innocent people is tragic and we need to try to stop it, but it don't happen at the frequency the media (especially foreign) media portrays. People simply are not being shot left and right all over the US like some try to portray. We may have more that other countries, but its not like bodies are raining from the sky. Again, one innocent person killed by a gun is too many, but people need to vent their frustrations and wait until the raw emotions of your initial reaction subsides and have a level headed, realistic discussion on this very complex and nuanced issue.




https://usafacts.org/data/topics/securi ... rm-deaths/
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:04 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I see, as always many people enjoying the moment, despite the fact that 20 children died.

In any case, this issue is not a gun issue, nor a gun law issue. We had the same guns and gun laws for generations.

It is only since the 90's that this terrible trend of mass shootings have began. In the 60's, 70's, 80's this was not heard of.

Till we really look into the minds of these people who commit these horrible and atrocious killings, this will continue. You can if you like ban all guns, this won't stop, they will us a car or what ever. This phenomenon is new, guns and gun laws aren't new.

Perhaps we can look within, social media, social pressures, drugs, video games, lack of spirituality...etc. The debate should be focused on that too. Sensible gun laws targeting people with mental issues can also be a subject of discussion, but like I said, changing the laws won't change nothing.


There's social media, social pressures, drugs, video games and a 'lack of spirituality' in other developed countries as well. Yet mass shootings are far, far rarer and overall death rates from guns and total numbers of shootings are far lower. The rest of the developed world is a rather large oversight here.

Changing the laws and adding the right regulations would help the problem, no one's claiming it would solve it entirely, but doing something is a whole lot better than insincere, meaningless condolences and no action. I'm not sure anyone here wants guns banned, just well-regulated. Like every other developed country manages, plus plenty of developing countries. Oddly enough, they don't have mass stabbings and vehicle slaughters with anywhere near the regularity, even accounting for population differences.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:08 pm

bpatus297 wrote:

This, and any school shooting or mass shooting of innocent people, is absolutely tragic and we need to explore what we can do to stop the evil that perpetuates these tragedies. With that said, here are the actual numbers for death statistics in the US in 2020:

There were 45,222 gun deaths in the US in 2020. Of those, 24,292 were suicide, 611 were legal intervention (law enforcement), 535 unintentional (accident), and 400 undetermined. If you remove the suicide, law enforcement, and accidental deaths that leaves you with 19,784. The US population is approximately 330M. That gives you a 0.000006% chance of being assaulted and killed by a gun . I argue that if you are not involved in criminal activity, its much lower.

There were only three people killed in school shootings in 2020, but 2020 is a bad year to look at that number since Covid keeps most kids home. There is also a trend up gun deaths rising with 2020 being the highest year since 1980 (first year on the charts in my link), with the low year being 2000 with 26,883. There has been a steady climb since.

The killing of innocent people is tragic and we need to try to stop it, but it don't happen at the frequency the media (especially foreign) media portrays. People simply are not being shot left and right all over the US like some try to portray. We may have more that other countries, but its not like bodies are raining from the sky. Again, one innocent person killed by a gun is too many, but people need to vent their frustrations and wait until the raw emotions of your initial reaction subsides and have a level headed, realistic discussion on this very complex and nuanced issue.




https://usafacts.org/data/topics/securi ... rm-deaths/


There are more mass shootings in the USA each year than there are days. No need to wait for emotions to die down, the next mass shooting is never far away.

I don't think it's weird to want to deal with 45,000 deaths a year, I mean look at the response to 'only' 3000 being killed by terrorists!
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:10 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

This, and any school shooting or mass shooting of innocent people, is absolutely tragic and we need to explore what we can do to stop the evil that perpetuates these tragedies. With that said, here are the actual numbers for death statistics in the US in 2020:

There were 45,222 gun deaths in the US in 2020. Of those, 24,292 were suicide, 611 were legal intervention (law enforcement), 535 unintentional (accident), and 400 undetermined. If you remove the suicide, law enforcement, and accidental deaths that leaves you with 19,784. The US population is approximately 330M. That gives you a 0.000006% chance of being assaulted and killed by a gun . I argue that if you are not involved in criminal activity, its much lower.

There were only three people killed in school shootings in 2020, but 2020 is a bad year to look at that number since Covid keeps most kids home. There is also a trend up gun deaths rising with 2020 being the highest year since 1980 (first year on the charts in my link), with the low year being 2000 with 26,883. There has been a steady climb since.

The killing of innocent people is tragic and we need to try to stop it, but it don't happen at the frequency the media (especially foreign) media portrays. People simply are not being shot left and right all over the US like some try to portray. We may have more that other countries, but its not like bodies are raining from the sky. Again, one innocent person killed by a gun is too many, but people need to vent their frustrations and wait until the raw emotions of your initial reaction subsides and have a level headed, realistic discussion on this very complex and nuanced issue.




https://usafacts.org/data/topics/securi ... rm-deaths/


There are more mass shootings in the USA each year than there are days. No need to wait for emotions to die down, the next mass shooting is never far away.

I don't think it's weird to want to deal with 45,000 deaths a year, I mean look at the response to 'only' 3000 being killed by terrorists!


Show me where I said we shouldn't deal with the deaths? You can't, because I said the opposite. I was simply putting the facts out there.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:10 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
I see, as always many people enjoying the moment, despite the fact that 20 children died.

In any case, this issue is not a gun issue, nor a gun law issue. We had the same guns and gun laws for generations.

It is only since the 90's that this terrible trend of mass shootings have began. In the 60's, 70's, 80's this was not heard of.

Till we really look into the minds of these people who commit these horrible and atrocious killings, this will continue. You can if you like ban all guns, this won't stop, they will us a car or what ever. This phenomenon is new, guns and gun laws aren't new.

Perhaps we can look within, social media, social pressures, drugs, video games, lack of spirituality...etc. The debate should be focused on that too. Sensible gun laws targeting people with mental issues can also be a subject of discussion, but like I said, changing the laws won't change nothing.


Split ends of the same asshair. The 70s and 80s had huge surges in violent crime and decay, while wage depression started in earnest.

Lack of spirituality has nothing to do with it. The Philippines and Mexico are majorly Catholic and have shit-tons of violent crime. The common denominator is wealth gap and doing zero about it. And what do you want to look into minds for? Nihilism is not caring about anything beyond immediate needs - that's all anyone needs to understand. One can live in the ghetto and be a nihilist or live in a 60th FL penthouse in Manhattan and also be same.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:11 pm

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but children raised by two heterosexual parents in a loving, God fearing, and traditional environment tend to do better in their social development.

I am not sure where the parents of the shooter were, or if or why the child shooter was living or staying with the grandmother instead of in a traditional two parent household.

All the same innocents are dead. This is horrible for the families. Uvalde is not known as a town with a lot of opportunity so many of the young people escape to the big cities to develop and grow. Unfortunately for the young people in the rural towns of our nations, the cost of living in the big cities and in Texas has risen so much,

the CITY ESCAPE VALVE is no longer as easy of an option as in the past. Small towners would commute with their friends into the cities on the weekend, but with rising gas prices and low opportunities, these options are increasingly nixed for young people just getting their start in life.

Apparently the shooter was a fast food worker.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:13 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
I see, as always many people enjoying the moment, despite the fact that 20 children died.

In any case, this issue is not a gun issue, nor a gun law issue. We had the same guns and gun laws for generations.

It is only since the 90's that this terrible trend of mass shootings have began. In the 60's, 70's, 80's this was not heard of.

Till we really look into the minds of these people who commit these horrible and atrocious killings, this will continue. You can if you like ban all guns, this won't stop, they will us a car or what ever. This phenomenon is new, guns and gun laws aren't new.

Perhaps we can look within, social media, social pressures, drugs, video games, lack of spirituality...etc. The debate should be focused on that too. Sensible gun laws targeting people with mental issues can also be a subject of discussion, but like I said, changing the laws won't change nothing.


There's social media, social pressures, drugs, video games and a 'lack of spirituality' in other developed countries as well. Yet mass shootings are far, far rarer and overall death rates from guns and total numbers of shootings are far lower. The rest of the developed world is a rather large oversight here.

Changing the laws and adding the right regulations would help the problem, no one's claiming it would solve it entirely, but doing something is a whole lot better than insincere, meaningless condolences and no action. I'm not sure anyone here wants guns banned, just well-regulated. Like every other developed country manages, plus plenty of developing countries. Oddly enough, they don't have mass stabbings and vehicle slaughters with anywhere near the regularity, even accounting for population differences.


Every country is different, every society is different and every way of life is different. Explain to me why before the 90's we did not have this. Why in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's this was hardly a problem.

Guns and gun laws aren't new. This mass shootings/killings is new. Lets go back to the evidence at hand, what has changed since the 90's? the gun laws are the same, the guns available too. So lets not get carried away, if we keep blaming guns, this will continue. And as we can see we are going to 30 years of this, because we are looking at the wrong way by blaming guns.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:15 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
I see, as always many people enjoying the moment, despite the fact that 20 children died.

In any case, this issue is not a gun issue, nor a gun law issue. We had the same guns and gun laws for generations.

It is only since the 90's that this terrible trend of mass shootings have began. In the 60's, 70's, 80's this was not heard of.

Till we really look into the minds of these people who commit these horrible and atrocious killings, this will continue. You can if you like ban all guns, this won't stop, they will us a car or what ever. This phenomenon is new, guns and gun laws aren't new.

Perhaps we can look within, social media, social pressures, drugs, video games, lack of spirituality...etc. The debate should be focused on that too. Sensible gun laws targeting people with mental issues can also be a subject of discussion, but like I said, changing the laws won't change nothing.


Split ends of the same asshair. The 70s and 80s had huge surges in violent crime and decay, while wage depression started in earnest.

Lack of spirituality has nothing to do with it. The Philippines and Mexico are majorly Catholic and have shit-tons of violent crime. The common denominator is wealth gap and doing zero about it. And what do you want to look into minds for? Nihilism is not caring about anything beyond immediate needs - that's all anyone needs to understand. One can live in the ghetto and be a nihilist or live in a 60th FL penthouse in Manhattan and also be same.


Violent crime has persisted as far as way back to the Chicago mob wars, remember 'St valentines day massacre'?. These random mass killings are a new phenomenon. IF we don't agree on that, then this problem will only get worse.

Something has made this problem worse, and its become a common issue since the 90's. What has changed since then?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:16 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
art wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
It is absolutely shocking that the US can't seem to even start to deal with gun homicide


A lot of foreigners see the people of the US as somewhat crazy in that they have a serious, persistent problem yet decline to take any steps to alleviate it..

“The U.S. government is prioritizing gun ownership over basic human rights. While many solutions have been offered, there has been a stunning lack of political will to save lives,” said Margaret Huang, executive director of Amnesty International USA. “Despite the huge number of guns in circulation and the sheer numbers of people killed by guns each year, there is a shocking lack of federal regulations that could save thousands.”


https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... ts-crisis/

PS Deaths through guns each year in US 30,000+
Wounding through guns each year IN US ??? - I have seen a figure of 700,000+ a year


This, and any school shooting or mass shooting of innocent people, is absolutely tragic and we need to explore what we can do to stop the evil that perpetuates these tragedies. With that said, here are the actual numbers for death statistics in the US in 2020:

There were 45,222 gun deaths in the US in 2020. Of those, 24,292 were suicide, 611 were legal intervention (law enforcement), 535 unintentional (accident), and 400 undetermined. If you remove the suicide, law enforcement, and accidental deaths that leaves you with 19,784. The US population is approximately 330M. That gives you a 0.000006% chance of being assaulted and killed by a gun . I argue that if you are not involved in criminal activity, its much lower.

There were only three people killed in school shootings in 2020, but 2020 is a bad year to look at that number since Covid keeps most kids home. There is also a trend up gun deaths rising with 2020 being the highest year since 1980 (first year on the charts in my link), with the low year being 2000 with 26,883. There has been a steady climb since.

The killing of innocent people is tragic and we need to try to stop it, but it don't happen at the frequency the media (especially foreign) media portrays. People simply are not being shot left and right all over the US like some try to portray. We may have more that other countries, but its not like bodies are raining from the sky. Again, one innocent person killed by a gun is too many, but people need to vent their frustrations and wait until the raw emotions of your initial reaction subsides and have a level headed, realistic discussion on this very complex and nuanced issue.




https://usafacts.org/data/topics/securi ... rm-deaths/


Well, as my friend texted a comment from his Australian wife today:

"It's amazing to us the cultural differences. Americans find it offensive how much we use the word c**t. We find it offensive how little Americans are willing to do to prevent kids from being mowed down at school."
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:16 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but children raised by two heterosexual parents in a loving, God fearing, and traditional environment tend to do better in their social development.



I think you’ll have to provide a source for that assertion.

Fred


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:16 pm

bpatus297 wrote:

Show me where I said we shouldn't deal with the deaths? You can't, because I said the opposite. I was simply putting the facts out there.


Facts: 3000 dead from terrorists, result: expensive war, invasion of another country, many more thousands of deaths as a consequence, plus more far-reaching aftereffects.

45,000 dead from guns each year: very little is done.

Your facts may indicate that the problem isn't as bad as 'the media' portrays, but I'm not sure there's any other way to spin 45,000 deaths, when it is immediately and obviously apparent that they are excessive, because as has been painstakingly pointed out: it does not happen in any other developed country (plus many developing countries) with anywhere near the same regularity.

Can't really wait for emotions to die down when it's such a regular occurrence.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:21 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
I see, as always many people enjoying the moment, despite the fact that 20 children died.

In any case, this issue is not a gun issue, nor a gun law issue. We had the same guns and gun laws for generations.

It is only since the 90's that this terrible trend of mass shootings have began. In the 60's, 70's, 80's this was not heard of.

Till we really look into the minds of these people who commit these horrible and atrocious killings, this will continue. You can if you like ban all guns, this won't stop, they will us a car or what ever. This phenomenon is new, guns and gun laws aren't new.

Perhaps we can look within, social media, social pressures, drugs, video games, lack of spirituality...etc. The debate should be focused on that too. Sensible gun laws targeting people with mental issues can also be a subject of discussion, but like I said, changing the laws won't change nothing.


There's social media, social pressures, drugs, video games and a 'lack of spirituality' in other developed countries as well. Yet mass shootings are far, far rarer and overall death rates from guns and total numbers of shootings are far lower. The rest of the developed world is a rather large oversight here.

Changing the laws and adding the right regulations would help the problem, no one's claiming it would solve it entirely, but doing something is a whole lot better than insincere, meaningless condolences and no action. I'm not sure anyone here wants guns banned, just well-regulated. Like every other developed country manages, plus plenty of developing countries. Oddly enough, they don't have mass stabbings and vehicle slaughters with anywhere near the regularity, even accounting for population differences.


Every country is different, every society is different and every way of life is different. Explain to me why before the 90's we did not have this. Why in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's this was hardly a problem.

Guns and gun laws aren't new. This mass shootings/killings is new. Lets go back to the evidence at hand, what has changed since the 90's? the gun laws are the same, the guns available too. So lets not get carried away, if we keep blaming guns, this will continue. And as we can see we are going to 30 years of this, because we are looking at the wrong way by blaming guns.


24/7 news coverage was really getting going by the 90s. People very far gone with little self worth know they will be immortalized by perpetrating such events - for the first time in their lives, they will be the subject of discussion for days, weeks on end.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:21 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
art wrote:

A lot of foreigners see the people of the US as somewhat crazy in that they have a serious, persistent problem yet decline to take any steps to alleviate it..



https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... ts-crisis/

PS Deaths through guns each year in US 30,000+
Wounding through guns each year IN US ??? - I have seen a figure of 700,000+ a year


This, and any school shooting or mass shooting of innocent people, is absolutely tragic and we need to explore what we can do to stop the evil that perpetuates these tragedies. With that said, here are the actual numbers for death statistics in the US in 2020:

There were 45,222 gun deaths in the US in 2020. Of those, 24,292 were suicide, 611 were legal intervention (law enforcement), 535 unintentional (accident), and 400 undetermined. If you remove the suicide, law enforcement, and accidental deaths that leaves you with 19,784. The US population is approximately 330M. That gives you a 0.000006% chance of being assaulted and killed by a gun . I argue that if you are not involved in criminal activity, its much lower.

There were only three people killed in school shootings in 2020, but 2020 is a bad year to look at that number since Covid keeps most kids home. There is also a trend up gun deaths rising with 2020 being the highest year since 1980 (first year on the charts in my link), with the low year being 2000 with 26,883. There has been a steady climb since.

The killing of innocent people is tragic and we need to try to stop it, but it don't happen at the frequency the media (especially foreign) media portrays. People simply are not being shot left and right all over the US like some try to portray. We may have more that other countries, but its not like bodies are raining from the sky. Again, one innocent person killed by a gun is too many, but people need to vent their frustrations and wait until the raw emotions of your initial reaction subsides and have a level headed, realistic discussion on this very complex and nuanced issue.




https://usafacts.org/data/topics/securi ... rm-deaths/


Well, as my friend texted a comment from his Australian wife today:

"It's amazing to us the cultural differences. Americans find it offensive how much we use the word c**t. We find it offensive how little Americans are willing to do to prevent kids from being mowed down at school."


But that isn't true, just because we haven't banned guns in the US, doesn't mean we don't want to protect kids. I remember the left getting school resource officers removed from schools just a few years ago, yeah that was a smart move.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:24 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

This, and any school shooting or mass shooting of innocent people, is absolutely tragic and we need to explore what we can do to stop the evil that perpetuates these tragedies. With that said, here are the actual numbers for death statistics in the US in 2020:

There were 45,222 gun deaths in the US in 2020. Of those, 24,292 were suicide, 611 were legal intervention (law enforcement), 535 unintentional (accident), and 400 undetermined. If you remove the suicide, law enforcement, and accidental deaths that leaves you with 19,784. The US population is approximately 330M. That gives you a 0.000006% chance of being assaulted and killed by a gun . I argue that if you are not involved in criminal activity, its much lower.

There were only three people killed in school shootings in 2020, but 2020 is a bad year to look at that number since Covid keeps most kids home. There is also a trend up gun deaths rising with 2020 being the highest year since 1980 (first year on the charts in my link), with the low year being 2000 with 26,883. There has been a steady climb since.

The killing of innocent people is tragic and we need to try to stop it, but it don't happen at the frequency the media (especially foreign) media portrays. People simply are not being shot left and right all over the US like some try to portray. We may have more that other countries, but its not like bodies are raining from the sky. Again, one innocent person killed by a gun is too many, but people need to vent their frustrations and wait until the raw emotions of your initial reaction subsides and have a level headed, realistic discussion on this very complex and nuanced issue.




https://usafacts.org/data/topics/securi ... rm-deaths/


Well, as my friend texted a comment from his Australian wife today:

"It's amazing to us the cultural differences. Americans find it offensive how much we use the word c**t. We find it offensive how little Americans are willing to do to prevent kids from being mowed down at school."


But that isn't true, just because we haven't banned guns in the US, doesn't mean we don't want to protect kids. I remember the left getting school resource officers removed from schools just a few years ago, yeah that was a smart move.


Oh I forgot, everything is political. :sarcastic: Thanks for proving her point.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:24 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Every country is different, every society is different and every way of life is different. Explain to me why before the 90's we did not have this. Why in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's this was hardly a problem.

Guns and gun laws aren't new. This mass shootings/killings is new. Lets go back to the evidence at hand, what has changed since the 90's? the gun laws are the same, the guns available too. So lets not get carried away, if we keep blaming guns, this will continue. And as we can see we are going to 30 years of this, because we are looking at the wrong way by blaming guns.


A quick glance at data suggests that there were still plenty of mass shootings in the decades you mention, and overall homicide rates were still high, even if they've risen today. I'd suggest that poverty is a big factor, but that's only my suspicion.

Every country is different, but it's only the USA out of developed countries where gun crime is so rampant and regular. I don't see how you can overlook the drastic difference between those others and the USA. You namechecked some reasons why gun crimes might be rising, but as I have to point out very often: these reasons are also present everywhere else, yet still the gun problems are not even remotely as severe.

You can look for causes other than guns, meanwhile the world largely gets on with regulating guns and actually trying to stop their children getting mowed down by the dozen and their citizens being killed by the thousands.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:25 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Show me where I said we shouldn't deal with the deaths? You can't, because I said the opposite. I was simply putting the facts out there.


Facts: 3000 dead from terrorists, result: expensive war, invasion of another country, many more thousands of deaths as a consequence, plus more far-reaching aftereffects.

45,000 dead from guns each year: very little is done.

Your facts may indicate that the problem isn't as bad as 'the media' portrays, but I'm not sure there's any other way to spin 45,000 deaths, when it is immediately and obviously apparent that they are excessive, because as has been painstakingly pointed out: it does not happen in any other developed country (plus many developing countries) with anywhere near the same regularity.

Can't really wait for emotions to die down when it's such a regular occurrence.


That is a fallacy and strawman. 9/11 has nothing to do with this discussion. Again, I said we need to try to stop the killing.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:26 pm

CometII wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
hh65man wrote:
I am a expat from Texas, left the U.S. more then 20 years ago. Now make rare visits home to see my father or family. Just recently visited with my lovely Viking goddess (yep from Norge). Told her if she spots anyone with a firearm to let me know, we would be leaving the store, restaurant, wherever immediately. I don’t trust anyone I don’t know personally, and even a few I do know with a gun. Sense thoughts and prayers don’t work I won’t waste my breath. Ill just shake my head instead.


You've got the right idea. My missus had enough as well and we're off to Tokyo.


It's an underreported phenomenon, but actually quietly lots of people, especially younger people, are just packing their bags. And it's not just about gun violence. Ask expats in Europe, Asia or South America and they will give you at least 10 reasons (guns, unafordable housing, lack of public healthcare, going to college is too expensive, rising racism towards Asian Americans, even increasing religious hate crimes against Jews, Muslims, in recent times). While everyone talks about the border problem, the people coming are desperately poor. In fact middle class Latin American immigration to the US has slowed markedly both from tighter borders but also people are shifting to other countries or just staying pat.

So it is not a single problem, it's just the USA is quite frankly not what it used to be. The decline now is palpable across most spheres and it's a bigger trend than the Biden or Trump presidencies.And it now includes institutional decline from elections not being respected, to congress gridlock, to even court (even Supreme court) institutional degradation.


Exactly.

Two of my cousins have lived abroad long-term, I did for awhile, and now will again. Skilled work is more portable than ever today - there is no reason to ride things out in the social morass of the US when good life can be had elsewhere - often cheaper and more convenient as well. The missus wanted to give the US a chance, and did, but this on top of the total lack of logic, social concern and cooperation by people over the last two years was just too much.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Well, as my friend texted a comment from his Australian wife today:

"It's amazing to us the cultural differences. Americans find it offensive how much we use the word c**t. We find it offensive how little Americans are willing to do to prevent kids from being mowed down at school."


But that isn't true, just because we haven't banned guns in the US, doesn't mean we don't want to protect kids. I remember the left getting school resource officers removed from schools just a few years ago, yeah that was a smart move.


Oh I forgot, everything is political. :sarcastic: Thanks for proving her point.


I didn't say wanting to protect kids is political for me, but to pretend that politics haven't been in this issue for decades is disingenuous.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:29 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Every country is different, every society is different and every way of life is different. Explain to me why before the 90's we did not have this. Why in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's this was hardly a problem.

Guns and gun laws aren't new. This mass shootings/killings is new. Lets go back to the evidence at hand, what has changed since the 90's? the gun laws are the same, the guns available too. So lets not get carried away, if we keep blaming guns, this will continue. And as we can see we are going to 30 years of this, because we are looking at the wrong way by blaming guns.


A quick glance at data suggests that there were still plenty of mass shootings in the decades you mention, and overall homicide rates were still high, even if they've risen today. I'd suggest that poverty is a big factor, but that's only my suspicion.

Every country is different, but it's only the USA out of developed countries where gun crime is so rampant and regular. I don't see how you can overlook the drastic difference between those others and the USA. You namechecked some reasons why gun crimes might be rising, but as I have to point out very often: these reasons are also present everywhere else, yet still the gun problems are not even remotely as severe.

You can look for causes other than guns, meanwhile the world largely gets on with regulating guns and actually trying to stop their children getting mowed down by the dozen and their citizens being killed by the thousands.


Note, we aren't talking about mass shootings between gangs or criminals That's an occurrence that has been happening for generations. Lets not go away from the topic at hand.

What we are talking about is random mass shooters, people shooting at schools and other areas where innocent people are at. This is the new phenomenon. The rest hasn't been something that concerns anyone, if so Chicago and Baltimore would have been militarized because of their violence issues.

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

There's social media, social pressures, drugs, video games and a 'lack of spirituality' in other developed countries as well. Yet mass shootings are far, far rarer and overall death rates from guns and total numbers of shootings are far lower. The rest of the developed world is a rather large oversight here.

Changing the laws and adding the right regulations would help the problem, no one's claiming it would solve it entirely, but doing something is a whole lot better than insincere, meaningless condolences and no action. I'm not sure anyone here wants guns banned, just well-regulated. Like every other developed country manages, plus plenty of developing countries. Oddly enough, they don't have mass stabbings and vehicle slaughters with anywhere near the regularity, even accounting for population differences.


Every country is different, every society is different and every way of life is different. Explain to me why before the 90's we did not have this. Why in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's this was hardly a problem.

Guns and gun laws aren't new. This mass shootings/killings is new. Lets go back to the evidence at hand, what has changed since the 90's? the gun laws are the same, the guns available too. So lets not get carried away, if we keep blaming guns, this will continue. And as we can see we are going to 30 years of this, because we are looking at the wrong way by blaming guns.


24/7 news coverage was really getting going by the 90s. People very far gone with little self worth know they will be immortalized by perpetrating such events - for the first time in their lives, they will be the subject of discussion for days, weeks on end.


You are onto something there. That might be one factor in it too. I think this issue has a lot of factors that cause this new phenomenon.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:32 pm

To note, mental health issues is a problem worldwide. We are on an aviation forum. We have noticed a significant increase of pilot suicides where they kill a bunch of innocent passengers. That wasn't also something happening before the 90's. Not at the rate we have seen in past years. And no, these haven't thankfully happened in the US. We seen in Europe, Africa and Asia. That doesn't mean we will stop flying European, African and Asian airlines because those pilots tend to take their plane down with innocent passengers.

Mental health I think is a new phenomenon, which has been causing so many issues worldwide. In the US this is certainly a reason why mass random shootings are on the rise.
Last edited by AirWorthy99 on Wed May 25, 2022 12:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:32 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

But that isn't true, just because we haven't banned guns in the US, doesn't mean we don't want to protect kids. I remember the left getting school resource officers removed from schools just a few years ago, yeah that was a smart move.


Oh I forgot, everything is political. :sarcastic: Thanks for proving her point.


I didn't say wanting to protect kids is political for me, but to pretend that politics haven't been in this issue for decades is disingenuous.


It's preposterously disingenuous as well to suggest that 'school resource officers' is even a little piece of the big picture puzzle here.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:36 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
To note, mental health issues is a problem worldwide. We are on an aviation forum. We have noticed a significant increase of pilot suicides where they kill a bunch of innocent passengers. That wasn't also something happening before the 90's. Not at the rate we have seen in past years. And no, these haven't thankfully happened in the US. We seen in Europe, Africa and Asia. That doesn't mean we will stop flying European, African and Asian airlines because those pilots tend to take their plane down with innocent passengers.

Mental health I think is a new phenomenon, which has been causing so many issues worldwide. In the US this is certainly a reason why mass random shootings are on the rise.


Mental health is not a 'new phenomenon' - but it has been backburnered by most cultures/societies until very recently. And the socioeconomic issues in the US that have increased stress and mental health burdens since the 70s are part of that picture too. Young people grow up hearing from school/family that they are in the greatest country in the history of the Earth, and sooner or later have to square with the fact the 'American dream' or whatever might be a lie and not meant for them. All they have to do is look around and talk to people in their town and get confirmation of that. That can be a devastating reality to face and not everyone has the necessary coping tools or support network for handling those feelings of inadequacy if the success of others influences both identity and evaluation of self worth. But that's hard to address on a case by case basis in a culture where access to good care requires $$ and everyone is expected to 'buck up and make something of yourself!'.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Wed May 25, 2022 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
art
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:37 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
I am not sure where the parents of the shooter were, or if or why the child shooter was living or staying with the grandmother instead of in a traditional two parent household.


This gives some idea of the hurt and misery the killer experienced in his interaction with his mother and his peers. I can understand if the way he was treated by others turned him into a sociopath harbouring rage and hatred.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-amer ... 5aoil.html

And how come someone with his history could legally own a gun? I suspect that there is no vetting of real value when you buy a firearm.
Last edited by art on Wed May 25, 2022 12:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:38 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Oh I forgot, everything is political. :sarcastic: Thanks for proving her point.


I didn't say wanting to protect kids is political for me, but to pretend that politics haven't been in this issue for decades is disingenuous.


It's preposterously disingenuous as well to suggest that 'school resource officers' is even a little piece of the big picture puzzle here.


You don't think a SRO has any place in this debate? Interesting. The SRO doesn't have anything to do with the nut jobs that doe these shootings, but do have a decent sized part in the safety of our kids at school.
Last edited by bpatus297 on Wed May 25, 2022 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:39 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

Show me where I said we shouldn't deal with the deaths? You can't, because I said the opposite. I was simply putting the facts out there.


Facts: 3000 dead from terrorists, result: expensive war, invasion of another country, many more thousands of deaths as a consequence, plus more far-reaching aftereffects.

45,000 dead from guns each year: very little is done.

Your facts may indicate that the problem isn't as bad as 'the media' portrays, but I'm not sure there's any other way to spin 45,000 deaths, when it is immediately and obviously apparent that they are excessive, because as has been painstakingly pointed out: it does not happen in any other developed country (plus many developing countries) with anywhere near the same regularity.

Can't really wait for emotions to die down when it's such a regular occurrence.


That is a fallacy and strawman. 9/11 has nothing to do with this discussion. Again, I said we need to try to stop the killing.


What 9/11 demonstrates is that Americans are willing to take big measures and pay huge costs if they are shocked and angered by killings, in order to prevent more. That there is next to no desire from huge swathes of their population suggests they don't really care. And I find that quite disheartening.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:40 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

I didn't say wanting to protect kids is political for me, but to pretend that politics haven't been in this issue for decades is disingenuous.


It's preposterously disingenuous as well to suggest that 'school resource officers' is even a little piece of the big picture puzzle here.


You don't think a SRO has any place in this debate? Interesting.


Yah, made a huge difference at Columbine HS.

https://extras.denverpost.com/news/col1123b.htm

I think the suggestion is superficial logically, yes.
 
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:43 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Note, we aren't talking about mass shootings between gangs or criminals That's an occurrence that has been happening for generations. Lets not go away from the topic at hand.

What we are talking about is random mass shooters, people shooting at schools and other areas where innocent people are at. This is the new phenomenon. The rest hasn't been something that concerns anyone, if so Chicago and Baltimore would have been militarized because of their violence issues.


Mass shootings are mass shootings no matter who they're between, and I don't see why anyone would object to making a concerted effort to reduce them, because the stats for anything relating to guns are frankly shocking for a supposed developed country. Since it doesn't seem to be accepted at all I'll remind you again: it does not happen in any other developed country, even ones with significant problems with their culture and govts that largely aren't fit for purpose.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:44 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

Facts: 3000 dead from terrorists, result: expensive war, invasion of another country, many more thousands of deaths as a consequence, plus more far-reaching aftereffects.

45,000 dead from guns each year: very little is done.

Your facts may indicate that the problem isn't as bad as 'the media' portrays, but I'm not sure there's any other way to spin 45,000 deaths, when it is immediately and obviously apparent that they are excessive, because as has been painstakingly pointed out: it does not happen in any other developed country (plus many developing countries) with anywhere near the same regularity.

Can't really wait for emotions to die down when it's such a regular occurrence.


That is a fallacy and strawman. 9/11 has nothing to do with this discussion. Again, I said we need to try to stop the killing.


What 9/11 demonstrates is that Americans are willing to take big measures and pay huge costs if they are shocked and angered by killings, in order to prevent more. That there is next to no desire from huge swathes of their population suggests they don't really care. And I find that quite disheartening.


Again, foreign actors, committing an act of war (albeit not from a state) against the US is a completely different discussion. Maybe its just the huge swath of people just don't agree with your version of what should be done. Just like with abortion, the US has lost the abilty to have good faith discussion about this issue without mud slinging and all sides digging in an not giving an inch.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:45 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Just like with abortion, the US has lost the abilty to have good faith discussion about this issue without mud slinging and all sides digging in an not giving an inch.


As you suggested upthread, that in of itself is suggestive of irrevocable societal malaise.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:48 pm

Young peoples minds, often do not process information at levels more experienced minds do.

News reports of “gorilla warfare,” during the Viet Nam war had me thinking of “Guerrilla’s.” The Planet of the Apes movies at the time did not help much either!

The news media terrorized and informed young people with fill in the in the blank…
60’s Nuclear annihilation
70’s the draft
80’s AID’s
90’s The Rapture, Dahmer and Oj
2000’s Y2K, a Failing environment,
2010’s Asteroids, Aliens, Gamma Rays, Racial lies etc
2020’s COVID

While young people are not “newsies” for the most part. Young people are consumers of Social Media information. Social media “NEW information” regardless of its accuracy is often not processed in young minds with developed critical thinking skills

For many kids and young people on the fringe, their MINDs are on information overload and short circuiting.

The dehumanization of the Covid Mask for so long has not helped develop a better society and world for young people. I cannot image Uvalde being particularly strict with mask usage, but schools where young people attend tend to have to be.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:49 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

It's preposterously disingenuous as well to suggest that 'school resource officers' is even a little piece of the big picture puzzle here.


You don't think a SRO has any place in this debate? Interesting.


Yah, made a huge difference at Columbine HS.

https://extras.denverpost.com/news/col1123b.htm

I think the suggestion is superficial logically, yes.


So the officer that exchanged gunfire with the shooters didn't make a difference? What is he had hit one of the shitheads? Did his exchange slow them down or make them exhaust ammunition that could have killed more people? I can't believe you actually agree with that statement. Just because on SRO failed to take out a threat doesn't mean we should get rid of every single one. Hell, the SRO in Florida would have been a better example since he was just a coward and wouldn't go in.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:50 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Note, we aren't talking about mass shootings between gangs or criminals That's an occurrence that has been happening for generations. Lets not go away from the topic at hand.

What we are talking about is random mass shooters, people shooting at schools and other areas where innocent people are at. This is the new phenomenon. The rest hasn't been something that concerns anyone, if so Chicago and Baltimore would have been militarized because of their violence issues.


Mass shootings are mass shootings no matter who they're between, and I don't see why anyone would object to making a concerted effort to reduce them, because the stats for anything relating to guns are frankly shocking for a supposed developed country. Since it doesn't seem to be accepted at all I'll remind you again: it does not happen in any other developed country, even ones with significant problems with their culture and govts that largely aren't fit for purpose.


Mass shootings do happen, as mentioned by Aaron, south of the border. Between the Mexican cartels. They kill each other every day.

Back when Colombia had their guerilla wars, they killed among each others.

In Africa, till recently they had war in Ethiopia. In the middle east, they had ISIS, recently Yemen. Now in Europe there are mass killings too with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

In Europe they are a rare occurrence but they do get their share, mostly among gangs, and very rarely random, but they occur.

People kill each other everywhere, just for different reasons unfortunately.

Many of the killings happening every day barely get any mention. In El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras killings don't even get mentioned by the local press.

Killings in the US do get the attention, perhaps that's why so many random mass shootings happen, so that these people get the notoriety they see on TV. That may be also part of a reason.

I hate mass shootings even if they are gang related, just that noting the mass shootings in the inner cities of the US is something not big of a deal for the MSM and the political left. But I agree, they are as bad a random shootings.

The issue at hand with the random shootings, are like I have said many times, A new phenomenon that has began since the 90's. The government can't control the gang killings, but we tend to think they can control the random shootings. Perhaps if they focus on mental health issues these random shootings will decrease.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:52 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:

That is a fallacy and strawman. 9/11 has nothing to do with this discussion. Again, I said we need to try to stop the killing.


What 9/11 demonstrates is that Americans are willing to take big measures and pay huge costs if they are shocked and angered by killings, in order to prevent more. That there is next to no desire from huge swathes of their population suggests they don't really care. And I find that quite disheartening.


Again, foreign actors, committing an act of war (albeit not from a state) against the US is a completely different discussion. Maybe its just the huge swath of people just don't agree with your version of what should be done. Just like with abortion, the US has lost the abilty to have good faith discussion about this issue without mud slinging and all sides digging in an not giving an inch.


Probably a different discussion, but the vastly differing reaction and responses suggests that only the will is lacking. The country as a collective had little issue with a strong response to an attack which cost 3000 people their lives, some measures which are routinely carried out to this day. A strong response can be made to the shocking number of deaths every year, but as there is no will, nothing happens, and so mass shootings are only a matter of time.

It's one thing to disagree with what should be done, another entirely to find excuses to take no action and disregard the evidence that quite plainly states that having more guns does not make the country safer. Too many will not change their mind, and it's the little kiddywinkles that have paid the price in this instance.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:53 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
Just because on SRO failed to take out a threat doesn't mean we should get rid of every single one.


Never made that statement. But whatevs.
 
zakuivcustom
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Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:56 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Oh I forgot, everything is political. :sarcastic: Thanks for proving her point.


I didn't say wanting to protect kids is political for me, but to pretend that politics haven't been in this issue for decades is disingenuous.


It's preposterously disingenuous as well to suggest that 'school resource officers' is even a little piece of the big picture puzzle here.


There was actually a UCISD police officer at the school...who was shot trying to stop the shooter from entering the school. The two border patrol, one of them eventually kill the shooter? Both injured.

Meanwhile by then the shooter already enter a room and basically massacred everyone in there.

Nothing short of actual gun control, i.e. stop the massacre weapon of choice in AR-15, is going to help. But nope, nothing will happen as those gun fetishist will just go out and buy 10 more AR-15 just to show how much they worship guns.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:57 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

What 9/11 demonstrates is that Americans are willing to take big measures and pay huge costs if they are shocked and angered by killings, in order to prevent more. That there is next to no desire from huge swathes of their population suggests they don't really care. And I find that quite disheartening.


Again, foreign actors, committing an act of war (albeit not from a state) against the US is a completely different discussion. Maybe its just the huge swath of people just don't agree with your version of what should be done. Just like with abortion, the US has lost the abilty to have good faith discussion about this issue without mud slinging and all sides digging in an not giving an inch.


Probably a different discussion, but the vastly differing reaction and responses suggests that only the will is lacking. The country as a collective had little issue with a strong response to an attack which cost 3000 people their lives, some measures which are routinely carried out to this day. A strong response can be made to the shocking number of deaths every year, but as there is no will, nothing happens, and so mass shootings are only a matter of time.

It's one thing to disagree with what should be done, another entirely to find excuses to take no action and disregard the evidence that quite plainly states that having more guns does not make the country safer. Too many will not change their mind, and it's the little kiddywinkles that have paid the price in this instance.


There is no dedicated action of any kind because that requires multigenerational political and societal effort. You're talking about a culture that shifted from saving, paying cash for daily necessities, long-term business planning etc in the 50s and 60s to credit and ever-expanding instant gratification driven by aggressive marketing and social psychology. The latter driven by MBA-type thinking that pushed companies and competitiveness into a chasing quarterly results mindset that eroded some economic factors that were a source of moderate social stability. The only thing culturally consistent in the US the last 40-50 years is the very successful finding more ways to enhance their earnings. At least it looks that way to anyone at the bottom paying a little attention.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Wed May 25, 2022 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 12:58 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:

Mass shootings do happen, as mentioned by Aaron, south of the border. Between the Mexican cartels. They kill each other every day.

Back when Colombia had their guerilla wars, they killed among each others.

In Africa, till recently they had war in Ethiopia. In the middle east, they had ISIS, recently Yemen. Now in Europe there are mass killings too with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

In Europe they are a rare occurrence but they do get their share, mostly among gangs, and very rarely random, but they occur.

People kill each other everywhere, just for different reasons unfortunately.

Many of the killings happening every day barely get any mention. In El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras killings don't even get mentioned by the local press.

Killings in the US do get the attention, perhaps that's why so many random mass shootings happen, so that these people get the notoriety they see on TV. That may be also part of a reason.

I hate mass shootings even if they are gang related, just that noting the mass shootings in the inner cities of the US is something not big of a deal for the MSM and the political left. But I agree, they are as bad a random shootings.

The issue at hand with the random shootings, are like I have said many times, A new phenomenon that has began since the 90's. The government can't control the gang killings, but we tend to think they can control the random shootings. Perhaps if they focus on mental health issues these random shootings will decrease.


Yes, killing happen and mass shootings happen in other places. As I've noted to you though, in developed countries it's not even remotely close in scale, plus many more developing countries. You've namechecked some where it is much worse, but then these are countries with a lot more problems and a lot more poverty. That it happens elsewhere is not justification for a lack of action. And let's face it: next to nothing has been done.

Again though, I have to note: the issues you raise as potentially causing the increase are not exclusive to the USA, in fact in many countries they will be just as bad, if not worse. Still nowhere near the frequency for overall deaths and mass shootings.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 1:04 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Mass shootings do happen, as mentioned by Aaron, south of the border. Between the Mexican cartels. They kill each other every day.

Back when Colombia had their guerilla wars, they killed among each others.

In Africa, till recently they had war in Ethiopia. In the middle east, they had ISIS, recently Yemen. Now in Europe there are mass killings too with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

In Europe they are a rare occurrence but they do get their share, mostly among gangs, and very rarely random, but they occur.

People kill each other everywhere, just for different reasons unfortunately.

Many of the killings happening every day barely get any mention. In El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras killings don't even get mentioned by the local press.

Killings in the US do get the attention, perhaps that's why so many random mass shootings happen, so that these people get the notoriety they see on TV. That may be also part of a reason.

I hate mass shootings even if they are gang related, just that noting the mass shootings in the inner cities of the US is something not big of a deal for the MSM and the political left. But I agree, they are as bad a random shootings.

The issue at hand with the random shootings, are like I have said many times, A new phenomenon that has began since the 90's. The government can't control the gang killings, but we tend to think they can control the random shootings. Perhaps if they focus on mental health issues these random shootings will decrease.


Yes, killing happen and mass shootings happen in other places. As I've noted to you though, in developed countries it's not even remotely close in scale, plus many more developing countries. You've namechecked some where it is much worse, but then these are countries with a lot more problems and a lot more poverty. That it happens elsewhere is not justification for a lack of action. And let's face it: next to nothing has been done.

Again though, I have to note: the issues you raise as potentially causing the increase are not exclusive to the USA, in fact in many countries they will be just as bad, if not worse. Still nowhere near the frequency for overall deaths and mass shootings.


By experience, since I have lived outside the US, others can relate too. In the US you tend to live lonelier and have less social interaction with others. Perhaps one determining factor of so many lone wolf killings might be that too. Less social interaction, less sense of community in many areas.

In Latin America and Europe where I have also lived, you don't have that. But you still have people with mental issues in any case. However, having more people around you, interacting with you helps.

This problem needs to be seen for what it is, if not like I said it will only get worse. Already politicians are dancing in top of the graves of these children asking for more power, and ignoring that guns don't kill people. People do. Yes lets have a sensible discussion of having people with mental issues without guns or weapons that kill, but going after guns will not fix it.

The same way that gang killings isn't solved by tougher gun laws, these issues of random killings won't be solved if we don't go to the root.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 1071
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Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 1:08 pm

art wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
I am not sure where the parents of the shooter were, or if or why the child shooter was living or staying with the grandmother instead of in a traditional two parent household.


This gives some idea of the hurt and misery the killer experienced in his interaction with his mother and his peers. I can understand if the way he was treated by others turned him into a sociopath harbouring rage and hatred.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-amer ... 5aoil.html
.


This was a very good article. Thank you. Social media, bullying, family dysfunction, parental drugs, domestic instability seem to be central themes to this tormented souls existence. He had no right to torment to ruin the lives of all those kids families and create more angst and torment for generations of these families to come.

Recreational drug usage is not harmless, this is not about anything else such as guns. The shooters family existed in crisis. How many of this airliners communities neighbors are tormented by the drug crisis too?

Yeah it’s “just cannabis” smoke, is so easy for some to live in denial with. Cannabis smoke masks much more. Don’t be part of the problem be part of the solution.
 
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william
Posts: 3952
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, TX

Wed May 25, 2022 1:10 pm

Willjet wrote:
william wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:

So, after the next very violent weekend in Chicago, if we get upset and demand more gun regulation, this call for said gun control will be more valid?


1. This every weekend in Chicago, and 31 is sadly on the low side of usual.
2. I mentioned this to show how Americans have been jaded to gun violence. So no, I do not know expect any new gun laws to come from this horrific tragedy in Texas.


Why the fixation with Chicago? This happened in Texas and in an elementary school where babies were straight up slaughtered in one incident.


Is context lost in this world? I used CHI as an example to show how the US is jaded to gun violence.

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