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scbriml
Posts: 21122
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:21 am

Vintage wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Cute, so you just throw them out in the street?


Cute, so you think people can just abuse health workers?

Somehow you guys miss the implications behind "great post surgery pain".


No, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Thanks.

"great post surgery pain" doesn't excuse being abusive to healthcare workers and it certainly doesn't excuse shooting up a hospital.

luckyone wrote:
So give half a thought for the staff being asked to just absorb verbal abuse by somebody supposedly in pain about whom we know nothing.


Most UK medical facilities now have clear signs stating that abuse of staff will not be tolerated and that abusers will be removed and may face prosecution. Heck, we even see it in stations and shops now thanks to endless Karens.

Vintage wrote:
but remember these words: it may be that this guy did a public service in bringing the plight of someone in severe pain (who is being ignored by his doctors) to the rest of the medical community


Wow, just wow.
 
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scbriml
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:23 am

Redd wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
100K people died last year because of drug OD's. I guess that's not worth mentioning nor becoming concerned. That's basically not a problem neither. Guns are right?


Ban guns is OK, but ban drug's isn't? 100k dead from OD's and millions of ruined lives, seems like the US has a bigger drug problem than a gun problem.


Please tell me you can see the difference between some druggie ODing and 20 elementary school kids being slaughtered in their class room?
 
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keesje
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:25 am

Get rid of those crazy guns and that idiot second Amendment.

If an Amendment doesn't work, damages society, change it!

Makes sense.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8637
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:02 am

3 more dead in Iowa outside a church.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/3- ... -rcna31781

But yeah, America has a "drug" problem and not a gun problem :sarcastic:
 
ACDC8
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:05 am

keesje wrote:
If an Amendment doesn't work, damages society, change it!


You mean like every other Country in the world does?

You'd think that such a developed society like the USA would understand that times have changed and circumstances have changed over the last 230 years.
 
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keesje
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:22 am

Image
https://www.quora.com/What-countries-ha ... ates#!n=12

Some brave, social and homeland loving people are needed in the Republican party.

Guns & handgrenades are for tested, trained people, e.g. the Marines.
 
ACDC8
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:50 am

keesje wrote:
Some brave, social and homeland loving people are needed in the Republican party.

Instead, the GOP is filled with these lunatics:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 92104.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstacey ... f8016255ed
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/06 ... s-abortion

Now, you want to talk about a mental health problem in the US? Start with these two - geezus.
 
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keesje
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:04 am

ACDC8 wrote:
keesje wrote:
Some brave, social and homeland loving people are needed in the Republican party.

Instead, the GOP is filled with these lunatics:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 92104.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstacey ... f8016255ed
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/06 ... s-abortion

Now, you want to talk about a mental health problem in the US? Start with these two - geezus.


Greene has promoted far-right, white supremacist, and antisemitic conspiracy theories including the white genocide conspiracy theory,[6][7] QAnon, and Pizzagate,[8][9] as well as other disproven conspiracy theories such as false flag mass shootings, the Clinton body count, and multiple relating to 9/11.[10][11] Before running for Congress, she advocated for executing prominent Democratic politicians.[12] As a Congresswoman, she equated the Democratic Party with Nazis[13][14] and compared COVID-19 safety measures to the persecution of Jews during the Holocaust


We have some pretty crazy people here too, but they don't get elected. https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/marjor ... in-georgia
 
ltbewr
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:29 am

In the USA, most people who believe they were mistreated by a doctor get a lawyer and sue them, not take a gun to that doctor. Some will seek pain killing drugs illegally, some will kill themselves as cannot take the totally crippling, disabling pain they have. Yes, the USA medical system has become much more reluctant to use certain pain killer drugs as they are addictive, A hospital near me in NJ has a respected program to limit the over-prescribing of pain killing drugs for relatively minor injuries like a broken arm, often recommending over the counter pain killers to limit the risk of addiction.

I also want to note that the doctor that was targeted and killed was a Black man, Dr. Preston Philips with an excellent reputation. The others killed were another doctor, Dr. Stephanie Husen, a receptionist Amanda Glenn and another patient William Love. Apparently the patient was killed trying to protect his wife. https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/02/us/tulsa ... index.html

On Thursday night, Pres. Biden addressed the nation for 17 minutes demanding Congress pass some new laws to try to limit the carnage from guns. In part it was driven by his discussions he had during his visits with the families of victims in the Uvalde, TX school gun terror attack. Among the suggestions was to at least raise the minimum age to obtain certain guns to 21, more 'red flag' laws so if someone has a serious mental health or other problem like domestic violence charges that may raise the risk of use of gun in violence and hardening of background checks. https://news.yahoo.com/biden-deliver-th ... 50606.html

Of course the gun flusters in Congress may prevent any changes. Indeed the US Supreme court could increase the 'right' to own and possess in public handguns in an anticipated decision in a case from NY State and City.
 
JJJ
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:51 am

keesje wrote:
Image
https://www.quora.com/What-countries-ha ... ates#!n=12

Some brave, social and homeland loving people are needed in the Republican party.

Guns & handgrenades are for tested, trained people, e.g. the Marines.


Interesting trend. That chart uses 9 year old data. US gun ownership has been still trending up (though how many actual new users vs hoarders is up for discussion) while it's going down in countries like Finland or Switzerland which have some of the highest non-US gun ownership rate.
 
TriJets
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:22 am

keesje wrote:
Get rid of those crazy guns and that idiot second Amendment.

If an Amendment doesn't work, damages society, change it!

Makes sense.


There is no public support for that as 99.999999% of the guns on the street never harm anyone, and criminals are already well armed here. Indeed, gun ownership has spiked since 2020's pandemic and riots.
 
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keesje
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:46 am

TriJets wrote:
keesje wrote:
Get rid of those crazy guns and that idiot second Amendment.

If an Amendment doesn't work, damages society, change it!

Makes sense.


There is no public support for that as 99.999999% of the guns on the street never harm anyone, and criminals are already well armed here. Indeed, gun ownership has spiked since 2020's pandemic and riots.


You are right about 2020.

There were 1.5 million of them between 1968 and 2017 - that's higher than the number of soldiers killed in every US conflict since the American War for Independence in 1775. In 2020 alone, more than 45,000 Americans died at the end of a barrel of a gun, whether by homicide or suicide, more than any other year on record. The figure represents a 25% increase from five years prior, and a 43% increase from 2010.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

USA, demonstrate how smart you & strong you solving this embarrassing situation.
 
ACDC8
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:48 am

TriJets wrote:
Indeed, gun ownership has spiked since 2020's pandemic and riots.

Which has been quickly followed by a spike in mass shootings which are now on a daily basis. More guns = more mass shootings. Thanks for proving our point :thumbsup:
TriJets wrote:
There is no public support for that

Baloney, there's lots of public support for change.
TriJets wrote:
as 99.999999% of the guns on the street never harm anyone,

Doesn't matter - there are simply too many guns getting in too many hands that are now needlessly taking too many lives everyday.
TriJets wrote:
and criminals are already well armed here.

Ah yes, the "criminal" argument again.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:35 pm

Redd wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
100K people died last year because of drug OD's. I guess that's not worth mentioning nor becoming concerned. That's basically not a problem neither. Guns are right?


Ban guns is OK, but ban drug's isn't? 100k dead from OD's and millions of ruined lives, seems like the US has a bigger drug problem than a gun problem.


Actually both things are connected. The violence issues this country has is in part mostly by drugs. Drug gangs, drugs induced etc. Drugs do have an important role in the current societal challenges and issues this country has.

If Drugs are out of the equation, many of the Chicago, NYC, LA, Detroit, Baltimore etc shootings and killings would probably not happen. And many lives and families won't be ruined.

Our European friends tell us daily that if the US adopts laws like theirs, our problems will end.

Well, Europe and the US have mostly the same tough anti-drug trafficking laws. Yet, despite that, illegal narcotics abuse is much worse in the US than in Europe, based on all data. Even the one I posted showing Europe with 5000+ OD death, versus the US 70K, in 2019.

If making tough laws fixes a problem, then the US shouldn't have that much of a drug problem, perhaps even lower problem than Europe. But the US has it far far worse than any country in the developed world.

Very similar to the gun statistics.

Its not a law or government issue, is a societal problem. And will continue to be unless people start talking about it.
 
TriJets
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:49 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
TriJets wrote:
Indeed, gun ownership has spiked since 2020's pandemic and riots.

Which has been quickly followed by a spike in mass shootings which are now on a daily basis. More guns = more mass shootings. Thanks for proving our point :thumbsup:
TriJets wrote:
There is no public support for that

Baloney, there's lots of publ
ic support for change.
TriJets wrote:
as 99.999999% of the guns on the street never harm anyone,

Doesn't matter - there are simply too many guns getting in too many hands that are now needlessly taking too many lives everyday.
TriJets wrote:
and criminals are already well armed here.

Ah yes, the "criminal" argument again.


More of any object logically means that there are more chances to misuse that object. More cars? More drunk driving deaths. More pools? More drownings. And so on. Believe me, if I could flip a switch and make every gun disappear tomorrow, I would do it without hesitation. That's not possible, though, and in the world we live in, people need to be able to defend themselves. When seconds count, the police are minutes (or hours) away.


https://www.cbs17.com/news/local-news/c ... le-police/
https://www.fox19.com/2022/05/31/man-sh ... sion-dies/
https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local ... 1452bf42cb
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/natio ... 19230.html
https://www.abc12.com/news/clare-police ... 937c2.html

These stories are not uncommon.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4276
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:36 pm

TriJets wrote:

These stories are not uncommon.


And stories about people shooting relatives they thought were intruders are not uncommon either.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/natio ... 79065.html

Or kids shooting other kids or themselves after finding a gun a at home.

https://www.newsweek.com/toddler-accide ... is-1687602

People are so scared about getting their home invaded but can't keep the most basic safety around them.

Or ignoring the fact that the presence of guns escalates even minor confrontations.

Toddler Shot Dead During Argument Between Two Brothers Over a T-Shirt
https://www.newsweek.com/toddler-shot-d ... rt-1709395

The human mind naturally overestimates some dangers and underestimates others. The results are out there.
 
TriJets
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:26 pm

JJJ wrote:
TriJets wrote:

These stories are not uncommon.


And stories about people shooting relatives they thought were intruders are not uncommon either.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/natio ... 79065.html

Or kids shooting other kids or themselves after finding a gun a at home.

https://www.newsweek.com/toddler-accide ... is-1687602

People are so scared about getting their home invaded but can't keep the most basic safety around them.

Or ignoring the fact that the presence of guns escalates even minor confrontations.

Toddler Shot Dead During Argument Between Two Brothers Over a T-Shirt
https://www.newsweek.com/toddler-shot-d ... rt-1709395

The human mind naturally overestimates some dangers and underestimates others. The results are out there.


Sure, which is why each person needs to look at their own situation and decide whether or not owning a gun is a good decision for them or not. With proper gun safety practices the risk of a kid accidentally or intentionally hurting themselves or someone else with a gun can be reduced to essentially zero.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4276
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:06 pm

TriJets wrote:
JJJ wrote:
TriJets wrote:

These stories are not uncommon.


And stories about people shooting relatives they thought were intruders are not uncommon either.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/natio ... 79065.html

Or kids shooting other kids or themselves after finding a gun a at home.

https://www.newsweek.com/toddler-accide ... is-1687602

People are so scared about getting their home invaded but can't keep the most basic safety around them.

Or ignoring the fact that the presence of guns escalates even minor confrontations.

Toddler Shot Dead During Argument Between Two Brothers Over a T-Shirt
https://www.newsweek.com/toddler-shot-d ... rt-1709395

The human mind naturally overestimates some dangers and underestimates others. The results are out there.


Sure, which is why each person needs to look at their own situation and decide whether or not owning a gun is a good decision for them or not. With proper gun safety practices the risk of a kid accidentally or intentionally hurting themselves or someone else with a gun can be reduced to essentially zero.


Wouldn't it be great if there was a way to ensure that legal gun owners get their ration of gun safety?
 
Redd
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:04 pm

scbriml wrote:
Redd wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
100K people died last year because of drug OD's. I guess that's not worth mentioning nor becoming concerned. That's basically not a problem neither. Guns are right?


Ban guns is OK, but ban drug's isn't? 100k dead from OD's and millions of ruined lives, seems like the US has a bigger drug problem than a gun problem.


Please tell me you can see the difference between some druggie ODing and 20 elementary school kids being slaughtered in their class room?


Please tell me which you think is worse for society? And if you think it's only 'druggie's' OD'ing, first I have to reprimand you for your total lack of empathy, and you're dehumanization of the addicted.Next, remind you of the middle class Opioid epidemic, not your typical druggie's ID'ing. So difference, yes, I can see. Which one is causing more harm is the real question.



AirWorthy99 wrote:

Actually both things are connected. The violence issues this country has is in part mostly by drugs. Drug gangs, drugs induced etc. Drugs do have an important role in the current societal challenges and issues this country has.

.


Bingo!

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its not a law or government issue, is a societal problem. And will continue to be unless people start talking about it.


Couldn't agree more.
 
FGITD
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:20 pm

Redd wrote:

Please tell me which you think is worse for society? And if you think it's only 'druggie's' OD'ing, first I have to reprimand you for your total lack of empathy, and you're dehumanization of the addicted.Next, remind you of the middle class Opioid epidemic, not your typical druggie's ID'ing. So difference, yes, I can see. Which one is causing more harm is the real question.



While I agree overall, drug addicts don’t fit stereotypes and there are many reasons people might turn to drugs, but the difference lies in self responsibility (aren’t republicans big on that?)

At the end of the day, the drug user is the one lighting up, or putting that needle in their arm. They made that choice, however they landed there.

Those 20 kids in a classroom made a choice to learn (well…were forced, but school is a good type of “forced”) and were gunned down while trying to learn. They had no say in it, they did nothing wrong, they were too young to even care about guns.

I think the overall frustration many people have is that it’s a dead end argument because of the republicans stances. Can’t get rid of guns, it’s in the constitution. Fine, understandable. I don’t agree because it’s absolutely not in the spirit or intended purpose of the constitution, but whatever. So it’s a mental health issue. Let’s spend the money to improve that. Aaaand republicans voted that down too.

The situation reminds me of one of the great Simpsons quotes. “We’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:41 pm

FGITD wrote:
Redd wrote:

Please tell me which you think is worse for society? And if you think it's only 'druggie's' OD'ing, first I have to reprimand you for your total lack of empathy, and you're dehumanization of the addicted.Next, remind you of the middle class Opioid epidemic, not your typical druggie's ID'ing. So difference, yes, I can see. Which one is causing more harm is the real question.



While I agree overall, drug addicts don’t fit stereotypes and there are many reasons people might turn to drugs, but the difference lies in self responsibility (aren’t republicans big on that?)

At the end of the day, the drug user is the one lighting up, or putting that needle in their arm. They made that choice, however they landed there.

Those 20 kids in a classroom made a choice to learn (well…were forced, but school is a good type of “forced”) and were gunned down while trying to learn. They had no say in it, they did nothing wrong, they were too young to even care about guns.

I think the overall frustration many people have is that it’s a dead end argument because of the republicans stances. Can’t get rid of guns, it’s in the constitution. Fine, understandable. I don’t agree because it’s absolutely not in the spirit or intended purpose of the constitution, but whatever. So it’s a mental health issue. Let’s spend the money to improve that. Aaaand republicans voted that down too.

The situation reminds me of one of the great Simpsons quotes. “We’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”


This is where a strawman has entered the conversation.

You agree that mental health issues and drugs play a huge role in the current societal crisis this country has BUT, Republicans are bad because they 'oppose' all help for that. Where exactly is this based on? and if Republicans are opposed to this, they shouldn't, no one should. We agree on this, no Republican is opposing this in these forums, so can we stop and just say we agree that this situation should be improved? can a.net do this?

Let me just say, as a conservative who votes GOP, this problem is a problem of society as a whole, entirely, not of one party but both parties, of all people involved at policy making and governing.

We have gone down this path for far too long, and there isn't much will among anyone to address this. That's why these shootings and violence has been happening all these last years.

Drug epidemic, fatherless and broken homes, mental health issues are a huge problem currently in the US, and they are issues not being seriously addressed by neither party.

Its simpler to blame it on a gun, rather than the root of the issue itself.

Guns have been around for far too long, and its been these past 20 years mass shootings/killings have spiked. Clearly the problem lies in part somewhere else too.
 
FGITD
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:00 pm

Mental healthcare isn’t what many people think it is though. It’s not some Freud-esque image of laying on a couch talking about your feelings while a doctor takes notes It’s having your needs met, and your life manageable.

Mental healthcare includes things like being able to see a doctor without your insurance being tied to your job, or being able to go in for an illness and not come out with a $5,000 bill after a 20 minute consultation. And those are things that republicans are absolutely against, even if not on these forums.

Every other country has similar problems, yet not one of them has the same number of mass shootings.

It’s not a new problem of the last 20 years. Mass shootings have been a problem in the US for decades. Hell, Wikipedia has a thorough list going back to 1920.
 
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scbriml
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:44 pm

TriJets wrote:
keesje wrote:
Get rid of those crazy guns and that idiot second Amendment.

If an Amendment doesn't work, damages society, change it!

Makes sense.


There is no public support for that as 99.999999% of the guns on the street never harm anyone, and criminals are already well armed here. Indeed, gun ownership has spiked since 2020's pandemic and riots.


The majority of Americans support stronger gun laws.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx
 
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scbriml
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:49 pm

Redd wrote:
Please tell me which you think is worse for society?


I'd much prefer a society where I can send my kids to school with zero chance of them being massacred. What's your preference?
 
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qf789
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:09 am

Please leave the flamebait and personal comments out of the discussion

Also leave the comments about moderation out of the discussion. If you feel there should be a generalized thread on the subject either discuss it in Site Related or email moderators @airliners.net
 
Kent350787
Topic Author
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:18 am

FGITD wrote:
.

It’s not a new problem of the last 20 years. Mass shootings have been a problem in the US for decades. Hell, Wikipedia has a thorough list going back to 1920.


A question unable to be answered is why the rate has accelerated across recent decades
 
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Francoflier
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:36 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:

This is where a strawman has entered the conversation.

You agree that mental health issues and drugs play a huge role in the current societal crisis this country has BUT, Republicans are bad because they 'oppose' all help for that. Where exactly is this based on? and if Republicans are opposed to this, they shouldn't, no one should. We agree on this, no Republican is opposing this in these forums, so can we stop and just say we agree that this situation should be improved? can a.net do this?

Let me just say, as a conservative who votes GOP, this problem is a problem of society as a whole, entirely, not of one party but both parties, of all people involved at policy making and governing.

We have gone down this path for far too long, and there isn't much will among anyone to address this. That's why these shootings and violence has been happening all these last years.

Drug epidemic, fatherless and broken homes, mental health issues are a huge problem currently in the US, and they are issues not being seriously addressed by neither party.

Its simpler to blame it on a gun, rather than the root of the issue itself.

Guns have been around for far too long, and its been these past 20 years mass shootings/killings have spiked. Clearly the problem lies in part somewhere else too.


Yet another attempt at deflection.
All the systemic problems you mention may well increase the incidence of gun violence, but they mostly stem from a society that drives ever larger inequality, pushing poorer classes deeper into helplessness, away from the means to alleviate their issues (lack of healthcare and education access among other). It promotes the use of drugs, mostly enabled by pharmaceutical companies which make fortunes selling barely regulated opioids.

I find comical the idea that you pretend that these issues are 'not being seriously addressed by either party' when, for a start, every bill trying to promote better access to healthcare for every American has been systematically voted against almost exclusively by the GOP.

Here is a list of house votes for major health reform laws in the last few years, and who voted for/against them in every instance... I think you'll basically see a blue and a red column every time, the red one always standing for the position that would prevent more 'socialised' access to healthcare.

https://www.healthreformvotes.org/

The US has devolved into a predatory capitalistic system which leads to increased inequality. You're right in one aspect: It's a systemic issue that certainly has consequences when it comes to gun violence. It is no wonder that shootings have increased as lower classes find themselves ever poorer and more desperate. Politically, however, there is only one side of the spectrum that continually votes to maintain and further that predatory 'every man for himself' system, and it happens to be the same one that also votes to repeal any sort of gun control...

It IS a political issue. A very fundamental one at that.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4276
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:19 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Redd wrote:

Please tell me which you think is worse for society? And if you think it's only 'druggie's' OD'ing, first I have to reprimand you for your total lack of empathy, and you're dehumanization of the addicted.Next, remind you of the middle class Opioid epidemic, not your typical druggie's ID'ing. So difference, yes, I can see. Which one is causing more harm is the real question.



While I agree overall, drug addicts don’t fit stereotypes and there are many reasons people might turn to drugs, but the difference lies in self responsibility (aren’t republicans big on that?)

At the end of the day, the drug user is the one lighting up, or putting that needle in their arm. They made that choice, however they landed there.

Those 20 kids in a classroom made a choice to learn (well…were forced, but school is a good type of “forced”) and were gunned down while trying to learn. They had no say in it, they did nothing wrong, they were too young to even care about guns.

I think the overall frustration many people have is that it’s a dead end argument because of the republicans stances. Can’t get rid of guns, it’s in the constitution. Fine, understandable. I don’t agree because it’s absolutely not in the spirit or intended purpose of the constitution, but whatever. So it’s a mental health issue. Let’s spend the money to improve that. Aaaand republicans voted that down too.

The situation reminds me of one of the great Simpsons quotes. “We’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”


This is where a strawman has entered the conversation.

You agree that mental health issues and drugs play a huge role in the current societal crisis this country has BUT, Republicans are bad because they 'oppose' all help for that. Where exactly is this based on? and if Republicans are opposed to this, they shouldn't, no one should. We agree on this, no Republican is opposing this in these forums, so can we stop and just say we agree that this situation should be improved? can a.net do this?


Would you agree to regulate access to firearms so that mentally unstable people and people with drug addictions are screened out?

The reason why mentally unstable people don't get to shoot up places in the rest of the civilized world (because we have our good share of then) is mostly because they don't get to have guns.
 
Redd
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:23 am

scbriml wrote:
Redd wrote:
Please tell me which you think is worse for society?


I'd much prefer a society where I can send my kids to school with zero chance of them being massacred. What's your preference?


The same, and I already live in that kind of society, thankfully. But for the Americans, how do you propose they get there, realistically, that is?
 
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scbriml
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:44 am

Redd wrote:
The same, and I already live in that kind of society, thankfully.


That makes at least two of us, then!

Redd wrote:
But for the Americans, how do you propose they get there, realistically, that is?


They never will - until there's significant consensus that something needs to be done. As long as the majority response to kids being massacred in their schools is "We need more guns." (yeah, how's that working out?), "Thoughts and prayers." or "We need better doors.", then it seems they're unwilling to help themselves.

Of course, the usual tired, pro-gun rhetoric will be wheeled out whenever there's a mass shooting, including the sickest one of all - "Now's not the time to discuss this, we need to pray for those kids." Whenever sensible suggestions are put forward, the first response is to hide behind the words "... shall not be infringed.", conveniently ignoring that the Supreme Court has ruled that rights granted under the constitution are not unlimited, and that there are infringements already in place.

It might help if the pro-gun lobby's position didn't include the trope "They want to take all our guns."
 
johns624
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:52 pm

JJJ wrote:
The reason why mentally unstable people don't get to shoot up places in the rest of the civilized world (because we have our good share of then) is mostly because they don't get to have guns.
They legally aren't supposed to be able to in the US, either. The problem is that so many mentally ill aren't ever diagnosed because the families and others hide it. Other times, it isn't put into the system.
 
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scbriml
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:18 pm

johns624 wrote:
The problem is that so many mentally ill aren't ever diagnosed because the families and others hide it. Other times, it isn't put into the system.


That isn't the problem, it's only part of the problem.
 
JJJ
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:21 pm

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
The reason why mentally unstable people don't get to shoot up places in the rest of the civilized world (because we have our good share of then) is mostly because they don't get to have guns.
They legally aren't supposed to be able to in the US, either. The problem is that so many mentally ill aren't ever diagnosed because the families and others hide it. Other times, it isn't put into the system.


Shoulder shrug again?

Med and psych evaluations and a police record are mandatory to own a gun in most civilized places.

Mandatory training (with a written and practical test at the end) too.

That's a good place to start.
 
jetwet1
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:18 pm

And Philadelphia makes it 234

Thoughts and blah blah blah
 
TriJets
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:39 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
And Philadelphia makes it 234

Thoughts and blah blah blah


Gang violence is nothing new. The media is just paying attention now because there is an agenda to push.
 
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scbriml
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sun Jun 05, 2022 3:52 pm

TriJets wrote:
The media is just paying attention now because there is an agenda to push.


Good to see that someone can identify the real issue here. Screw those dead kids and their unarmed teachers. :banghead: :sarcastic:
 
TriJets
Posts: 407
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
TriJets wrote:
The media is just paying attention now because there is an agenda to push.


Screw those dead kids and their unarmed teachers. :banghead: :sarcastic:


Is that your take?
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:22 pm

TriJets wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:
And Philadelphia makes it 234

Thoughts and blah blah blah


Gang violence is nothing new. The media is just paying attention now because there is an agenda to push.


Gang violence has nothing to with this, the school shooting in Texas, The massacre in Columbine its just people with mental illness and easy access to fire arms.

If you claim this is gang violence related then provet it!
Surely you have sources so tjat we can verify yiur claim.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:43 am

johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
The reason why mentally unstable people don't get to shoot up places in the rest of the civilized world (because we have our good share of then) is mostly because they don't get to have guns.
They legally aren't supposed to be able to in the US, either. The problem is that so many mentally ill aren't ever diagnosed because the families and others hide it. Other times, it isn't put into the system.


That’s only 1/3 the problem. Another third is that jurisdictional boundaries and processes are not seamless where they could/should be to track such individuals. And another third is that regardless of the systems in place, illegal weapons are relatively easy to obtain.
 
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Aesma
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:40 am

Calling some of these "mental illness" is disingenuous, especially if you allow people with such "illness" to get guns easily.

Terrorists, white supremacists, incels, who "one up" each other on the internet until one of them commits an attack aren't ill, they're showing pretty normal human behavior.
 
SEAorPWM
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:06 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
The reason why mentally unstable people don't get to shoot up places in the rest of the civilized world (because we have our good share of then) is mostly because they don't get to have guns.
They legally aren't supposed to be able to in the US, either. The problem is that so many mentally ill aren't ever diagnosed because the families and others hide it. Other times, it isn't put into the system.


That’s only 1/3 the problem. Another third is that jurisdictional boundaries and processes are not seamless where they could/should be to track such individuals. And another third is that regardless of the systems in place, illegal weapons are relatively easy to obtain.


Agreed. If the states can't even agree on something simple like a single age of consent, I don't see much happening at the national level.
 
johns624
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:37 pm

SEAorPWM wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
They legally aren't supposed to be able to in the US, either. The problem is that so many mentally ill aren't ever diagnosed because the families and others hide it. Other times, it isn't put into the system.


That’s only 1/3 the problem. Another third is that jurisdictional boundaries and processes are not seamless where they could/should be to track such individuals. And another third is that regardless of the systems in place, illegal weapons are relatively easy to obtain.


Agreed. If the states can't even agree on something simple like a single age of consent, I don't see much happening at the national level.
Except that most gun purchase laws are on the federal level. States can make them tougher, but not easier than the federal law.
 
cedarjet
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:41 pm

There are full-blown wars that don’t kill 45,000 people a year — when the war in Ukraine is a year old it won’t have killed 45,000. You could make the case that the US is in a state of civil war with these numbers. All that’s missing is the unified reason for the death toll eg one political dispute but the raw numbers are certainly there already.
 
johns624
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:46 pm

cedarjet wrote:
There are full-blown wars that don’t kill 45,000 people a year — when the war in Ukraine is a year old it won’t have killed 45,000. .
I think you'll be well wrong with that figure, when you include civilians.
 
TriJets
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:45 pm

cedarjet wrote:
There are full-blown wars that don’t kill 45,000 people a year — when the war in Ukraine is a year old it won’t have killed 45,000. You could make the case that the US is in a state of civil war with these numbers. All that’s missing is the unified reason for the death toll eg one political dispute but the raw numbers are certainly there already.


Well, you'd have to cut that number in half as half of those 45,000 are suicides.
 
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scbriml
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:13 pm

TriJets wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
There are full-blown wars that don’t kill 45,000 people a year — when the war in Ukraine is a year old it won’t have killed 45,000. You could make the case that the US is in a state of civil war with these numbers. All that’s missing is the unified reason for the death toll eg one political dispute but the raw numbers are certainly there already.


Well, you'd have to cut that number in half as half of those 45,000 are suicides.


So suicide by gun isn't a gun death? :spin:
 
ACDC8
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:13 pm

TriJets wrote:
Well, you'd have to cut that number in half as half of those 45,000 are suicides.

Dead by gun is dead by gun - doesn't matter what the reason is. Some of those suicide victims might even be alive today if they didn't have access to a quick and easy way out.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8637
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:42 pm

Blame everything but the gun, its the Republican way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GECdW7hLpeI
 
TriJets
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:24 am

scbriml wrote:
TriJets wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
There are full-blown wars that don’t kill 45,000 people a year — when the war in Ukraine is a year old it won’t have killed 45,000. You could make the case that the US is in a state of civil war with these numbers. All that’s missing is the unified reason for the death toll eg one political dispute but the raw numbers are certainly there already.


Well, you'd have to cut that number in half as half of those 45,000 are suicides.


So suicide by gun isn't a gun death? :spin:


Someone committing suicide doesn't really lend itself to the idea that society is at civil war.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8637
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Re: 4 dead in Tulsa OK medical centre shooting

Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:26 am

TriJets wrote:
Someone committing suicide doesn't really lend itself to the idea that society is at civil war.

You are - with gun violence.

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