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stratosphere
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:00 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
I never understood Canada but it seems the people there seem to be content with the government telling them what to do. To each their own.


Yeah and Canada or Trudeau has no problem sticking his nose in our business too like our southern border and how we should be handling it. Then sang a different tune when they started showing up at his doorstep. I don't blame anyone for hating the US hell I hate us I too or at least our government. We for sure stick our nose in too many other peoples business. But the other countries sure like our handouts tho.
 
leader1
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:04 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
I wouldn't say we're anti-American, but the attitude you're describing is kinda pretty much the same anywhere in the world - there's a reason why a lot of Americans put Canadian flags on their backpacks. I was in Italy this one time, wanted to store my luggage. Talked to the guy in a bit of broken Italian with a mix of English. Guy was totally ignorant and rude to me, showed him my Canadian passport - complete 180 in attitude. Americans have a certain reputation abroad and its not always a very positive one.


Strongly disagree. I’ve lived abroad, too, in Asia, Europe and South America. Always got treated the same whether I presented myself as American or Canadian. Other than the general Asian xenophobia against all foreigners, I probably got treated worst in Canada if they knew my background.

Edmonton woke? Yeah, not a chance. Vancouver and Toronto, sure, but Edmonton, yeah just no. And yes, I pretty much lived there between 2013 and 2018 and have lots of friends up there. I've lived in Canada (mostly BC) most my life and I've never heard or seen the term "sanitation engineer" used in day to day life other than on job postings and the odd advertisement. Political Correctness is a non-issue here in day to day life, even here in Vancouver. Your experience could very well be a company or institution policy, but certainly not a cultural view. You go up to UBC and their janitor's are part of the environmental services division, but if you ask for or call someone a janitor, no one will be offended or try to correct you.


Edmonton is quite left-wing. Not nearly as much as Toronto or Vancouver, but much, much more so than Calgary and the rest of Alberta. Don’t forget they vote NDP or Liberal in most elections. Again, I grew up in Edmonton and my parents still live there and I visit all the time. So, I will stand by statement that it’s pretty PC there from my experience. Our high school did refer to the janitor as a “sanitation engineer” and my dad, who taught at the U of A, told me that’s what they had to call them there, too. He’s retired now, so maybe it’s changed since then. But if it’s such a non-issue, then maybe it’s because it’s so engrained in society. Most Canadians apparently favor being politically correct. Seems to have increased from a few years before.

https://globalnews.ca/news/2908808/most ... -far-poll/

https://angusreid.org/political-correctness/
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:09 am

ACDC8 wrote:
there's a reason why a lot of Americans put Canadian flags on their backpacks.
About 15 years ago, my wife and I were on our honeymoon on a flight from DUB to LHR. I got talking to some Canadians from Toronto who caught me up on the Stanley Cup playoffs. They anointed me an honorary Canadian and said that I could put a flag on my daypack. It was great being from a border city and liking Don Cherry.
 
LabQuest
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:51 am

johns624 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
there's a reason why a lot of Americans put Canadian flags on their backpacks.
About 15 years ago, my wife and I were on our honeymoon on a flight from DUB to LHR. I got talking to some Canadians from Toronto who caught me up on the Stanley Cup playoffs. They anointed me an honorary Canadian and said that I could put a flag on my daypack. It was great being from a border city and liking Don Cherry.


Pretending to be Canadian while travelling is so cringe.
 
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seb146
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:14 am

Keeping military grade weapons out of the hands of non-military people? how dare they......
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:15 pm

seb146 wrote:
Keeping military grade weapons out of the hands of non-military people? how dare they......
This bill is about banning all low capacity handguns, At least you're consistent with your "no facts needed" postings.
 
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seb146
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:14 pm

johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Keeping military grade weapons out of the hands of non-military people? how dare they......
This bill is about banning all low capacity handguns, At least you're consistent with your "no facts needed" postings.


A freeze on sales is not the same thing as taking guns from everyone.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:23 pm

leader1 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
I wouldn't say we're anti-American, but the attitude you're describing is kinda pretty much the same anywhere in the world - there's a reason why a lot of Americans put Canadian flags on their backpacks. I was in Italy this one time, wanted to store my luggage. Talked to the guy in a bit of broken Italian with a mix of English. Guy was totally ignorant and rude to me, showed him my Canadian passport - complete 180 in attitude. Americans have a certain reputation abroad and its not always a very positive one.


Strongly disagree. I’ve lived abroad, too, in Asia, Europe and South America. Always got treated the same whether I presented myself as American or Canadian. Other than the general Asian xenophobia against all foreigners, I probably got treated worst in Canada if they knew my background.

Edmonton woke? Yeah, not a chance. Vancouver and Toronto, sure, but Edmonton, yeah just no. And yes, I pretty much lived there between 2013 and 2018 and have lots of friends up there. I've lived in Canada (mostly BC) most my life and I've never heard or seen the term "sanitation engineer" used in day to day life other than on job postings and the odd advertisement. Political Correctness is a non-issue here in day to day life, even here in Vancouver. Your experience could very well be a company or institution policy, but certainly not a cultural view. You go up to UBC and their janitor's are part of the environmental services division, but if you ask for or call someone a janitor, no one will be offended or try to correct you.


Edmonton is quite left-wing. Not nearly as much as Toronto or Vancouver, but much, much more so than Calgary and the rest of Alberta. Don’t forget they vote NDP or Liberal in most elections. Again, I grew up in Edmonton and my parents still live there and I visit all the time. So, I will stand by statement that it’s pretty PC there from my experience. Our high school did refer to the janitor as a “sanitation engineer” and my dad, who taught at the U of A, told me that’s what they had to call them there, too. He’s retired now, so maybe it’s changed since then. But if it’s such a non-issue, then maybe it’s because it’s so engrained in society. Most Canadians apparently favor being politically correct. Seems to have increased from a few years before.

https://globalnews.ca/news/2908808/most ... -far-poll/

https://angusreid.org/political-correctness/

I'll PM you later tonight or tomorrow, I'd like to keep this discussion going with you but don't want to go to far off topic in this thread :D
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:38 am

seb146 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Keeping military grade weapons out of the hands of non-military people? how dare they......
This bill is about banning all low capacity handguns, At least you're consistent with your "no facts needed" postings.


A freeze on sales is not the same thing as taking guns from everyone.
That's not what you said. You brought up "military grade weapons" when the guns involved are nothing of the sort and are already highly regulated and restricted. It's also not a freeze. It permanently stops all sales and transfers. So when an owner dies, the government comes and seizes their guns.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:16 am

johns624 wrote:
It's also not a freeze.

Yes, it is - if it were a ban, those who legally have obtained one would have to turn them in.
johns624 wrote:
It permanently stops all sales and transfers. So when an owner dies, the government comes and seizes their guns.

And? The legal owner of the firearm is no longer the legal owner of the firearm. One of the weapons used in the Nova Scotia shootings in 2020 was obtained through an estate transfer and it helped kill 22 people. This closes that loophole to help ensure things like this hopefully don't happen again in the future.

This is how a civilized nation deals with gun violence, they go after the actual problem.
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:00 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
It's also not a freeze.

Yes, it is - if it were a ban, those who legally have obtained one would have to turn them in.
johns624 wrote:
It permanently stops all sales and transfers. So when an owner dies, the government comes and seizes their guns.

And? The legal owner of the firearm is no longer the legal owner of the firearm. One of the weapons used in the Nova Scotia shootings in 2020 was obtained through an estate transfer and it helped kill 22 people. This closes that loophole to help ensure things like this hopefully don't happen again in the future.

This is how a civilized nation deals with gun violence, they go after the actual problem.
Are they going to compensate the owners for their monetary loss? The estate gun in the Nova Scotia shooting was a rifle, BTW.
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:45 pm

Rather than start a new thread, I'll just post this here since it seems to fit. This thread is a perfect example why gun owners don't believe anything the anti-gunners say. Many here and on other threads have said that they don't want to take all guns and just want "reasonable" gun laws. Yet, when a country proposes to outlaw an entire type of firearm, they all get woodies and say what a great thing that is. Whether it is in response to an incident or not, makes no difference to them. I know literally hundreds of people who own ARs here in the US, who have never even had a parking ticket. Yet, if the government outlawed them and required them being turned in, wouldn't obey. It's called civil disobedience. If they have more than one, they may turn in a few tokens, but one will stay in the back corner of the gun safe. That's just the way it is.
 
Derico
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:04 pm

bhill wrote:
Derico wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Maybe because people enjoy the sport and aren't hurting anyone? You have an irrational fear of guns; just admit it. Because you don't want something, you don't think anyone else should, either.


This is the crux of the matter, that most US inhabitants don' want to admit: the laws about weapons, as they are (forget if they are too loose or too strict), are just inapplicable to every part of a country, which, like all countries (and more so than most), has changed drastically since those rights were first established now closing in on 300 years ago.

At that time, all states were rural overwhelmingly. 99% of people led the same quasi-frontier lifestyle, or outright frontier lifestyle in a huge continent whose wilderness had not been destroyed, like Europe already had been. Unlike Europe, America still had massive forest filled with dangerous creatures, but creatures that could also sustain families. And then there was the fact that conflict was ever present with the Natives who were rightfully outraged their lands were being systematically stolen. But for the most part, all regions of the country had a very similar lifestyle and societal structure.

Today, rural southern or western areas may retain that flavor of 300 years ago, and as such the people living in those areas not only have an appreciation and love for the rights of gun ownership, but a real need. People in Manhattan, Miami Beach, San Francisco, or a country home suburb have a completely different societal structure and way of life. For the people of the former to expect the people in the latter will accept or have the same notions of guns as themselves is irrational. And so is viceversa.

So you have an unsolvable problem on the legal front because you cannot craft legislation on this issue that will address the needs of both lifestyles. They are just too far apart now. Actually this issue is why you have crisis all over the Western Hemisphere, the countries have grown too large in the sense that regionalism is now finally starting to become evident, and increasingly, people are not so unified in their views because their way of life is drifting ever farther apart from a far flung region within their own nation.


300 years ago the fear was not wild critters...they ate them. The fear was a standing Federal Army...And the States protecting themselves from it....


I can only just go with what I have been told and read about some of the reasons for the US constitutional stance on private weapons. I understand the part of a Federal army, but lifestyle also plays a big role in that. But you can include "federal army" even into that. It seems clear that people in some cultural regions of the US do not fear, or even care, about a federal army. While people in other areas do.

That is another cultural difference and if anything reinforces the point. People with an independent, quasi "off the grid" lifestyle, will be far more suspicious of any outsider, including federal agencies. It's both natural and a healthy byproduct of independence, but it's also a typical somewhat negative attitude of people in isolated places the world over: distrust of the other.

People in massive urban areas MUST depend on countless others or the system collapses. It's how urbanites are bred, tjo defer to others for certain services or protections, and you cannot fault them for that either. They just won't have much worry or even fear about federal armies or law enforcers. So to ask those people to appreciate gun ownership as a tool for independence or standing guard against outsiders will not make much sense to a city dweller. And thus you have the current dilemma. In the US it's about guns (and some other issues), but in other countries this dichotomy also exists in other aspects.
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:11 pm

Derico wrote:
People in massive urban areas MUST depend on countless others or the system collapses. It's how urbanites are bred, tjo defer to others for certain services or protections, and you cannot fault them for that either. They just won't have much worry or even fear about federal armies or law enforcers. So to ask those people to appreciate gun ownership as a tool for independence or standing guard against outsiders will not make much sense to a city dweller. And thus you have the current dilemma. In the US it's about guns (and some other issues), but in other countries this dichotomy also exists in other aspects.
Not really correct. The prevalence of guns in urban areas is much higher than you seem to think. In fact, urban-owned guns are bought for self protection at a higher rate than those in urban areas. Rural dwellers are more apt to have hunting guns and those used for sporting and other normal purposes. I was in Clearfield, PA yesterday at probably the largest gunshop in the whole state. It's a rural area and the preponderance of guns were of the hunting variety. Most of the gunshops here in the Detroit area specialize in self defense handguns, riot shotguns and AR style rifles.
 
Derico
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:20 pm

johns624 wrote:
Derico wrote:
People in massive urban areas MUST depend on countless others or the system collapses. It's how urbanites are bred, tjo defer to others for certain services or protections, and you cannot fault them for that either. They just won't have much worry or even fear about federal armies or law enforcers. So to ask those people to appreciate gun ownership as a tool for independence or standing guard against outsiders will not make much sense to a city dweller. And thus you have the current dilemma. In the US it's about guns (and some other issues), but in other countries this dichotomy also exists in other aspects.
Not really correct. The prevalence of guns in urban areas is much higher than you seem to think. In fact, urban-owned guns are bought for self protection at a higher rate than those in urban areas. Rural dwellers are more apt to have hunting guns and those used for sporting and other normal purposes. I was in Clearfield, PA yesterday at probably the largest gunshop in the whole state. It's a rural area and the preponderance of guns were of the hunting variety. Most of the gunshops here in the Detroit area specialize in self defense handguns, riot shotguns and AR style rifles.


Because we are not dealing with a clean argument here. Your country is flooded by weapons at a rate of 3 weapons for 1 person, unheard of in the entire planet. So of course, in that environment, people will want to arm themselves, but it is merely a reaction to a practical reality. So it is a bit of apples and oranges. I was focusing on the cultural differences that create ideological gaps in how people perceive the US constitution's weapons amendment.

I meet tons of Americans (including conservative ones), that are expats in cities of Europe and Asia and they, after a while, willingly admit that they would never purchase a gun in the USA if conditions were the same there as they are in Europe and Asia in terms of how many guns are in the environment. Those people don't necessarily disagree with the amendment just because they wouldn't or don't buy guns, just as they don't necessarily endorse just because they feel the pressure to purchase one. So the reasoning you put forth does not really invalidate the cultural ideas creating the divide you see today on the concept of gun rights.

I fundamentally despise going through security at airports and the like, but the practical reality makes me go along and agree with it. That doesn't invalidate my thoughts that those security check points should be scrapped immediately if evil was minimized in the world, so that only once in a decade would someone even attempt something nefarious on an aircraft.
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:07 pm

Even if the US was completely safe, I would still own some firearms. Why? Just because I like shooting as a sport.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:05 pm

johns624 wrote:
Are they going to compensate the owners for their monetary loss?

The owner will no longer need anything monetary related. I'm sure down the road the Government will implement a buyback program for handguns as they have for other firearms and if the monetary value is important to the owner then they may have that option in the future. Alternatively, if the monetary value is important or if you want to keep it in the family after you pass, you have the option of selling it or transferring it before the updated laws are in place.
johns624 wrote:
The estate gun in the Nova Scotia shooting was a rifle, BTW.

Doesn't matter if it was a slingshot - point is that the shooter was in possession of a firearm that he was not legally in a position to be in possession of by means of an estate.
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:05 am

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
The estate gun in the Nova Scotia shooting was a rifle, BTW.

Doesn't matter if it was a slingshot - point is that the shooter was in possession of a firearm that he was not legally in a position to be in possession of by means of an estate.
But the shooter wasn't legally able to be in possession of any firearm. It has nothing to do with the proposed law, which concerns handguns.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:58 am

johns624 wrote:
But the shooter wasn't legally able to be in possession of any firearm. It has nothing to do with the proposed law, which concerns handguns.

Sure it does, it closes a loophole that could enable someone not eligible to be in possession of a firearm acquire a firearm. You're focusing too much on small details and not looking at the big picture which is to reduce the number of firearms in Canada and limit ways people can acquire them.

Yesterday it was assault rifles, today its handguns, and hopefully in the future, maybe rifles.
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:48 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
But the shooter wasn't legally able to be in possession of any firearm. It has nothing to do with the proposed law, which concerns handguns.

Sure it does, it closes a loophole that could enable someone not eligible to be in possession of a firearm acquire a firearm. You're focusing too much on small details and not looking at the big picture which is to reduce the number of firearms in Canada and limit ways people can acquire them.

Yesterday it was assault rifles, today its handguns, and hopefully in the future, maybe rifles.
So you want the complete banning of firearms. Why didn't you just come out and say it? Does Canada have a problem with legal firearms owners committing crimes or do you just not like them for some reason?
PS Maybe Canada should ban alcohol, too? You know, because a very small percentage (but much larger than gun owners) abuse it and hurt other people.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:36 pm

johns624 wrote:
So you want the complete banning of firearms. Why didn't you just come out and say it? Does Canada have a problem with legal firearms owners committing crimes or do you just not like them for some reason?

I never said anything about banning anything, I specifically said reduce the amount of firearms and limit the ways how one can acquire them.
johns624 wrote:
PS Maybe Canada should ban alcohol, too? You know, because a very small percentage (but much larger than gun owners) abuse it and hurt other people.

Yawn.
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:45 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
So you want the complete banning of firearms. Why didn't you just come out and say it? Does Canada have a problem with legal firearms owners committing crimes or do you just not like them for some reason?

I never said anything about banning anything, I specifically said reduce the amount of firearms and limit the ways how one can acquire them.
johns624 wrote:
PS Maybe Canada should ban alcohol, too? You know, because a very small percentage (but much larger than gun owners) abuse it and hurt other people.

Yawn.
You never said anything about banning anything? How about when you said this
Yesterday it was assault rifles, today its handguns, and hopefully in the future, maybe rifles.
That would leave only shotguns, which I'm sure you'd then call for the banning of. You'd keep saying it was a "reasonable" law banning them, too.
What's with the "yawn"? What productive purpose does getting inebriated serve? It should be banned because "drunk drivers".
 
ACDC8
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:52 pm

johns624 wrote:
You never said anything about banning anything? How about when you said this
Yesterday it was assault rifles, today its handguns, and hopefully in the future, maybe rifles.
That would leave only shotguns, which I'm sure you'd then call for the banning of. You'd keep saying it was a "reasonable" law banning them, too.
What's with the "yawn"? What productive purpose does getting inebriated serve? It should be banned because "drunk drivers".

If you're going to quote me, then quote my comment in its entire context.

One last time for you - I said to reduce the amount of firearms and limit the ways one can acquire one. :roll:
Last edited by ACDC8 on Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
johns624
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:57 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
You never said anything about banning anything? How about when you said this
Yesterday it was assault rifles, today its handguns, and hopefully in the future, maybe rifles.
That would leave only shotguns, which I'm sure you'd then call for the banning of. You'd keep saying it was a "reasonable" law banning them, too.
What's with the "yawn"? What productive purpose does getting inebriated serve? It should be banned because "drunk drivers".

One last time, no where did I say anything about banning, I specifically said to reduce the amount of fire arms and limit the ways one can acquire them.

You're twisting words.
No. "Assault rifles" have been banned and the government is in the process of acquiring them. This bill would ban the sale, transfer or importation of handgun, thereby banning them in the near future, as owners die. Then you say "hopefully in the future, maybe rifles". That sounds like you want them banned, too. You're the one twisting words. Whether a ban is immediate of takes a few years makes no difference. You still haven't said whether legal guns are used in many crimes. If not, there's no public safety reason for the banning. Of course, all the gangs will just smuggle in guns, just like they do the drugs that they sell.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:06 pm

johns624 wrote:
No. "Assault rifles" have been banned and the government is in the process of acquiring them. This bill would ban the sale, transfer or importation of handgun, thereby banning them in the near future, as owners die. Then you say "hopefully in the future, maybe rifles". That sounds like you want them banned, too. .

And I've clarified my comment twice for you now and will now clarify it for you a third time - to reduce the amount of firearms and to limit those who can acquire one.
johns624 wrote:
You're the one twisting words..

I haven't twisted anything, you're not reading what I posted.
johns624 wrote:
You still haven't said whether legal guns are used in many crimes. If not, there's no public safety reason for the banning

As I pointed out earlier, one of the weapons used in the NS shooting was a legal weapon given to someone who was not in a position to own one, that is very much a reason for public safety.
johns624 wrote:
Of course, all the gangs will just smuggle in guns, just like they do the drugs that they sell.

Ah yes, of course, the "gangs". Regardless, reducing is reducing and thats the whole point. There will always be guns in Canada, and always some way to acquire them, whether legally or illegally. There will always be gun violence within our borders, while we can't stop it, we can reduce it and again, that is what we'd like to accomplish.
 
GDB
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:54 pm

Questions;
1) Do Canadian or other first world Western nation schoolchildren now practice drills if a shooter comes to their school, except in one nation?
2) Staying with schools, are protected backpacks made to aid in firearms protection, a 'thing' in any other first world Western nation...except one?
(These were not known even during the height of the terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland).

3) Is the US the only place where a scam artist could make (as his attempts to avoid bankruptcy show), hundreds of millions, his profile being hugely boosted by his campaign to call the victims of Sandy Hook parents 'liars' (y'know, whose young children were shot to death, cut to pieces which some on here a decade on seem totally OK with not doing anything remotely sensible to make less likely) and a term subsequently used much in GOP/Trump/general US paranoid insanity, 'Crisis Actors', to the extent of some having move several times, after multiple death threats from 'concerned citizen gun owners', one family having to do so seven times?
Millions of Americans seem to believe so, some may have changed usernames but a few on here did at the time too.

You may say Jones is nothing to do with this, he is EVERYTHING to do with it, the paranoia, greed (he's a one man NRA), since if massacres like that did not keep on happening, at higher rates, higher death tolls, there would be no space for him to profit from lies and inherent paranoia.

Here's a idea to motivate gun control, from the past.
After being on the rough end of the famously corrupt LAPD for decades, in the mid 1960's some resolved that if they could not rely on the police to defend their communities, given the second amendment they would do so.
What? African Americans carrying GUNS? Governor Reagan of CA was not happy with that. What's up Ron, were you not a supporter of the 2nd Amendment, we know you liked 'States Rights' (When then JCS member Colin Powell had for some reason to arrive at the WH in civvies Reagan thought him a janitor).
Some will know this is how the Black Panthers started, they did not end that way for sure, it certainly provides the link with gun fanaticism with inherent racial paranoia.

Hence all the attempts to hijack threads with 'but, but gangs' when the subject is yet another mass murder at a school, church, cinema etc.

Don't ever try hiding in plain sight.
 
bpatus297
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Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:36 pm

GDB wrote:
Questions;
1) Do Canadian or other first world Western nation schoolchildren now practice drills if a shooter comes to their school, except in one nation?
2) Staying with schools, are protected backpacks made to aid in firearms protection, a 'thing' in any other first world Western nation...except one?
(These were not known even during the height of the terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland).

3) Is the US the only place where a scam artist could make (as his attempts to avoid bankruptcy show), hundreds of millions, his profile being hugely boosted by his campaign to call the victims of Sandy Hook parents 'liars' (y'know, whose young children were shot to death, cut to pieces which some on here a decade on seem totally OK with not doing anything remotely sensible to make less likely) and a term subsequently used much in GOP/Trump/general US paranoid insanity, 'Crisis Actors', to the extent of some having move several times, after multiple death threats from 'concerned citizen gun owners', one family having to do so seven times?
Millions of Americans seem to believe so, some may have changed usernames but a few on here did at the time too.

You may say Jones is nothing to do with this, he is EVERYTHING to do with it, the paranoia, greed (he's a one man NRA), since if massacres like that did not keep on happening, at higher rates, higher death tolls, there would be no space for him to profit from lies and inherent paranoia.

Here's a idea to motivate gun control, from the past.
After being on the rough end of the famously corrupt LAPD for decades, in the mid 1960's some resolved that if they could not rely on the police to defend their communities, given the second amendment they would do so.
What? African Americans carrying GUNS? Governor Reagan of CA was not happy with that. What's up Ron, were you not a supporter of the 2nd Amendment, we know you liked 'States Rights' (When then JCS member Colin Powell had for some reason to arrive at the WH in civvies Reagan thought him a janitor).
Some will know this is how the Black Panthers started, they did not end that way for sure, it certainly provides the link with gun fanaticism with inherent racial paranoia.

Hence all the attempts to hijack threads with 'but, but gangs' when the subject is yet another mass murder at a school, church, cinema etc.

Don't ever try hiding in plain sight.


I have children that hove gone to school in three states, and we have never had 1 or 2 be the case. My kids have never had drills (unlike myself who did duck and cover drills for nukes) and they have never considered "armored" backpacks.
 
Newark727
Posts: 3056
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:02 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
I have children that hove gone to school in three states, and we have never had 1 or 2 be the case. My kids have never had drills (unlike myself who did duck and cover drills for nukes) and they have never considered "armored" backpacks.


Elementary school in New Jersey had me doing fire drills. Elementary school in California had me doing earthquake drills. Last few years of high school (ca. 2006-2008) they did have us do one "lockdown" drill - no active shooter was mentioned, but that was understood to be the purpose. Was a private school, not sure what other institutions and districts were doing at the time.
 
GDB
Posts: 15727
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:42 pm

bpatus297 wrote:
GDB wrote:
Questions;
1) Do Canadian or other first world Western nation schoolchildren now practice drills if a shooter comes to their school, except in one nation?
2) Staying with schools, are protected backpacks made to aid in firearms protection, a 'thing' in any other first world Western nation...except one?
(These were not known even during the height of the terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland).

3) Is the US the only place where a scam artist could make (as his attempts to avoid bankruptcy show), hundreds of millions, his profile being hugely boosted by his campaign to call the victims of Sandy Hook parents 'liars' (y'know, whose young children were shot to death, cut to pieces which some on here a decade on seem totally OK with not doing anything remotely sensible to make less likely) and a term subsequently used much in GOP/Trump/general US paranoid insanity, 'Crisis Actors', to the extent of some having move several times, after multiple death threats from 'concerned citizen gun owners', one family having to do so seven times?
Millions of Americans seem to believe so, some may have changed usernames but a few on here did at the time too.

You may say Jones is nothing to do with this, he is EVERYTHING to do with it, the paranoia, greed (he's a one man NRA), since if massacres like that did not keep on happening, at higher rates, higher death tolls, there would be no space for him to profit from lies and inherent paranoia.

Here's a idea to motivate gun control, from the past.
After being on the rough end of the famously corrupt LAPD for decades, in the mid 1960's some resolved that if they could not rely on the police to defend their communities, given the second amendment they would do so.
What? African Americans carrying GUNS? Governor Reagan of CA was not happy with that. What's up Ron, were you not a supporter of the 2nd Amendment, we know you liked 'States Rights' (When then JCS member Colin Powell had for some reason to arrive at the WH in civvies Reagan thought him a janitor).
Some will know this is how the Black Panthers started, they did not end that way for sure, it certainly provides the link with gun fanaticism with inherent racial paranoia.

Hence all the attempts to hijack threads with 'but, but gangs' when the subject is yet another mass murder at a school, church, cinema etc.

Don't ever try hiding in plain sight.


I have children that hove gone to school in three states, and we have never had 1 or 2 be the case. My kids have never had drills (unlike myself who did duck and cover drills for nukes) and they have never considered "armored" backpacks.


Anecdotal. Plenty of reports over the past decade, post Sandy Hook notably, of those drills and those items increasingly becoming a reality. The fact that alleged adults double down and also suggest arming teachers, some stuff blaming doors more recently, illustrates even more starkly the actual point. Where else in a first world nation, or most nations that are not war zones?
Certainly in the former, none.

Anecdotes as fact and constant diversions!
(In the ‘duck and cover’ era mass shootings were very rare to the point of unknown, Charles Whitman maybe, a bit later. Most urban gun ownership was ‘Saturday Night Special’ type handguns, most rural your Dad’s weapons or if brought, similar type weapons for ranchers and farmers. That did not need semi auto, military grade ammo and a 30 round mag, the ranches and farms seemed to have survived back then).
 
bpatus297
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:51 am

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:06 pm

GDB wrote:
bpatus297 wrote:
GDB wrote:
Questions;
1) Do Canadian or other first world Western nation schoolchildren now practice drills if a shooter comes to their school, except in one nation?
2) Staying with schools, are protected backpacks made to aid in firearms protection, a 'thing' in any other first world Western nation...except one?
(These were not known even during the height of the terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland).

3) Is the US the only place where a scam artist could make (as his attempts to avoid bankruptcy show), hundreds of millions, his profile being hugely boosted by his campaign to call the victims of Sandy Hook parents 'liars' (y'know, whose young children were shot to death, cut to pieces which some on here a decade on seem totally OK with not doing anything remotely sensible to make less likely) and a term subsequently used much in GOP/Trump/general US paranoid insanity, 'Crisis Actors', to the extent of some having move several times, after multiple death threats from 'concerned citizen gun owners', one family having to do so seven times?
Millions of Americans seem to believe so, some may have changed usernames but a few on here did at the time too.

You may say Jones is nothing to do with this, he is EVERYTHING to do with it, the paranoia, greed (he's a one man NRA), since if massacres like that did not keep on happening, at higher rates, higher death tolls, there would be no space for him to profit from lies and inherent paranoia.

Here's a idea to motivate gun control, from the past.
After being on the rough end of the famously corrupt LAPD for decades, in the mid 1960's some resolved that if they could not rely on the police to defend their communities, given the second amendment they would do so.
What? African Americans carrying GUNS? Governor Reagan of CA was not happy with that. What's up Ron, were you not a supporter of the 2nd Amendment, we know you liked 'States Rights' (When then JCS member Colin Powell had for some reason to arrive at the WH in civvies Reagan thought him a janitor).
Some will know this is how the Black Panthers started, they did not end that way for sure, it certainly provides the link with gun fanaticism with inherent racial paranoia.

Hence all the attempts to hijack threads with 'but, but gangs' when the subject is yet another mass murder at a school, church, cinema etc.

Don't ever try hiding in plain sight.


I have children that hove gone to school in three states, and we have never had 1 or 2 be the case. My kids have never had drills (unlike myself who did duck and cover drills for nukes) and they have never considered "armored" backpacks.


Anecdotal. Plenty of reports over the past decade, post Sandy Hook notably, of those drills and those items increasingly becoming a reality. The fact that alleged adults double down and also suggest arming teachers, some stuff blaming doors more recently, illustrates even more starkly the actual point. Where else in a first world nation, or most nations that are not war zones?
Certainly in the former, none.

Anecdotes as fact and constant diversions!
(In the ‘duck and cover’ era mass shootings were very rare to the point of unknown, Charles Whitman maybe, a bit later. Most urban gun ownership was ‘Saturday Night Special’ type handguns, most rural your Dad’s weapons or if brought, similar type weapons for ranchers and farmers. That did not need semi auto, military grade ammo and a 30 round mag, the ranches and farms seemed to have survived back then).


I never claimed it was anything but my experience, of course its anecdotal.
 
Kent350787
Posts: 2513
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:32 pm

GDB wrote:
Questions;
1) Do Canadian or other first world Western nation schoolchildren now practice drills if a shooter comes to their school, except in one nation?


Here in NSW, Australia there are regular active shooter drills, although I'm not sure how regular. They were implemented as a result of the recommendations of the Dunblane (Scotland) Royal Commission in the late 1990s. Australia hasn't seen a deadly school shooting in many decades (there was one at a university, which we don't consider a school).

Contrary to an accusation upthread, I have nothing against guns for well regulated sporting or necessary control activities. But closing loopholes and reducing supply is always a good thing in my mind.
 
johns624
Posts: 5747
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:59 am

Kent350787 wrote:

Contrary to an accusation upthread, I have nothing against guns for well regulated sporting or necessary control activities. But closing loopholes and reducing supply is always a good thing in my mind.
Doublespeak. If they are well regulated, why do they have to be reduced?
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8787
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:50 am

johns624 wrote:
Doublespeak. If they are well regulated, why do they have to be reduced?

To further reduce gun violence and further reduce the chances of firearms landing in the hands of those who are not supposed to have one, ergo, close the loopholes. Almost half of the gun related homicides in Canada are with registered firearms - reduce that number and the number of gun related homicides goes down.
 
GDB
Posts: 15727
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:37 am

Kent350787 wrote:
GDB wrote:
Questions;
1) Do Canadian or other first world Western nation schoolchildren now practice drills if a shooter comes to their school, except in one nation?


Here in NSW, Australia there are regular active shooter drills, although I'm not sure how regular. They were implemented as a result of the recommendations of the Dunblane (Scotland) Royal Commission in the late 1990s. Australia hasn't seen a deadly school shooting in many decades (there was one at a university, which we don't consider a school).

Contrary to an accusation upthread, I have nothing against guns for well regulated sporting or necessary control activities. But closing loopholes and reducing supply is always a good thing in my mind.


Odd, since Dunblane did not lead to similar in the UK where it happened, though it was clear that overwhelming public pressure (in a nation not entranced by gun fantasies, which was shown also to be true of Australia as well), there was going to be big restrictions in owning guns, many were upset since they thought the Hungerford massacre in 1987 had banned such weapons, (it only banned semi automatic full caliber weapons in the class of the AK-47 and M-1 Carbine the perp used there, not the semi auto 9mm pistol he used on himself when surrounded by armed police), so there was public anger with this loophole which enabled a manifestly unsuitable man to own several handguns including the Browning HP he used at Dunblane.

Few disagreed, one who did was an obscure columnist masquerading as a real journalist (soon to be sacked for writing deliberate falsehoods), now the compromised pig of Downing Street.
But if you suggested here shooter drills at schools the kids would laugh and if pressed by government or local authorities, the ridicule at such a looking down the wrong end of the telescope kind of thinking, industrial action to tell how stupid the idea is.
 
johns624
Posts: 5747
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:04 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Doublespeak. If they are well regulated, why do they have to be reduced?

To further reduce gun violence and further reduce the chances of firearms landing in the hands of those who are not supposed to have one, ergo, close the loopholes. Almost half of the gun related homicides in Canada are with registered firearms - reduce that number and the number of gun related homicides goes down.
Do you have a cite for your homicide numbers since this article claims it's hard to determine in many cases.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.4803378
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8787
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:05 pm

johns624 wrote:
Do you have a cite for your homicide numbers since this article claims it's hard to determine in many cases.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.4803378

http://guncontrol.ca/issues-and-facts/myths-and-facts/
 
johns624
Posts: 5747
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:41 am

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Do you have a cite for your homicide numbers since this article claims it's hard to determine in many cases.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.4803378

http://guncontrol.ca/issues-and-facts/myths-and-facts/
So an article from a website called "guncontrol" is not biased. There was at least one big error in that article. The Ruger Mini 14 like used in the Montreal Massacre has been banned. Another scary provision in C-21 is the anonymous Red Flag part. Isn't being able to confront your accuser one of the hallmarks of democracy. Here are a couple of videos that show the other side. That government minister couldn't even answer a question, even though he was asked several times. He knew that legal guns weren't the problem but wouldn't admit it. Ever watched Ian Runkle before? He's great!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnI9MKYIV9U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amRgFSwVkDo&t=198s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ72Ixilb7U
 
petertenthije
Posts: 4637
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:10 am

johns624 wrote:
Another scary provision in C-21 is the anonymous Red Flag part. Isn't being able to confront your accuser one of the hallmarks of democracy.

I suppose that depends on the subject and which side of the aisle you dit:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/09/03/ ... amming-it/
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8787
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:00 am

johns624 wrote:
So an article from a website called "guncontrol" is not biased

LOL, no surprise you'd say that - regardless, if you have other stats, you're more than welcome to share them.
johns624 wrote:
Ever watched Ian Runkle before? He's great!

A guns rights lawyer? No bias there :rotfl:
 
johns624
Posts: 5747
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:39 pm

petertenthije wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Another scary provision in C-21 is the anonymous Red Flag part. Isn't being able to confront your accuser one of the hallmarks of democracy.

I suppose that depends on the subject and which side of the aisle you dit:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/09/03/ ... amming-it/

I'm against anonymous "tips", no matter what they're for.
 
johns624
Posts: 5747
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:44 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
So an article from a website called "guncontrol" is not biased

LOL, no surprise you'd say that - regardless, if you have other stats, you're more than welcome to share them.
johns624 wrote:
Ever watched Ian Runkle before? He's great!

A guns rights lawyer? No bias there :rotfl:
Much less bias than your source. While your source says about half of handguns recovered at homicide scenes were registered, the interviewer from CTV said it's 15% and isn't contradicted by the govt minister. Even your source said that registered handguns aren't a major source of crime, since most handguns used in crimes are smuggled in.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8787
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:46 pm

johns624 wrote:
since most handguns used in crimes are smuggled in.

Actually, it said that most illegal handguns are smuggled in.
 
johns624
Posts: 5747
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:53 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
since most handguns used in crimes are smuggled in.

Actually, it said that most illegal handguns are smuggled in.
Yes, and the vast majority of crimes are committed with illegal guns. They'd have to be illegal, if they were smuggled in.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8787
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:57 pm

johns624 wrote:
Yes, and the vast majority of crimes are committed with illegal guns. They'd have to be illegal, if they were smuggled in.

And thanks to gun control, gun violence caused by legal firearms has declined significantly and with the new legislation, it will drop even more :thumbsup:
 
johns624
Posts: 5747
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:51 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Yes, and the vast majority of crimes are committed with illegal guns. They'd have to be illegal, if they were smuggled in.

And thanks to gun control, gun violence caused by legal firearms has declined significantly and with the new legislation, it will drop even more :thumbsup:
Which will be a drop in the bucket compared with all the illegal guns.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8787
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:06 am

johns624 wrote:
Which will be a drop in the bucket compared with all the illegal guns.

Gotta start somewhere - a drop in the bucket is a start, before you know it, the bucket starts to fill up more and more :thumbsup:
 
johns624
Posts: 5747
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:58 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Which will be a drop in the bucket compared with all the illegal guns.

Gotta start somewhere - a drop in the bucket is a start, before you know it, the bucket starts to fill up more and more :thumbsup:
I would think that you'd go after the CRIMINALS first and leave the law abiding citizens alone.
 
johns624
Posts: 5747
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:54 pm

johns624 wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Which will be a drop in the bucket compared with all the illegal guns.

Gotta start somewhere - a drop in the bucket is a start, before you know it, the bucket starts to fill up more and more :thumbsup:
I would think that you'd go after the CRIMINALS first and leave the law abiding citizens alone.
Too many people lump all guns and gun users together and don't differentiate between illegal guns used by criminals and guns used by law abiding citizens like the guy next door.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 8787
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Canada promises not to take peoples guns!!

Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:08 pm

johns624 wrote:
I would think that you'd go after the CRIMINALS first and leave the law abiding citizens alone.

It's like going around in circles with you. Again, many guns used by law abiding citizens end up in the hands of criminals. Reduce the number of weapons, it becomes harder for criminals to obtain them. And before you use the "well, they'll just get guns from other places" or "its just a drop in the bucket compared to smuggled guns" arguments, our goal is to reduce, not eliminate and with every gun control measure implemented, we've reduced the amount of gun violence in our country (as has almost every other country in the world except for that one who thinks doors are the problem) and this will reduce it even more.
johns624 wrote:
Too many people lump all guns and gun users together and don't differentiate between illegal guns used by criminals and guns used by law abiding citizens like the guy next door.

And too many people don't look at the big picture and keep using the criminal rhetoric.

Anyways, my last comment on this topic is that I'd like to offer my sincerest thoughts and prayers to those who can no longer buy handguns :pray:

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