January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Avatar2go · Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:57 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:

No, they really don’t care and you’re deluding yourself.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-harry- ... years/amp/

“CNN’s Harry Enten predicted Republicans will walk away from the November midterms with a huge majority in the U.S. House of Representatives and argued the party is in its best midterm position in more than 80 years.”

According to the most recent 2022 generic polls on FiveThirtyEight, Republicans have between a 2 and 10 point advantage in the midterms. It varies widely by region. Some of that advantage lies in Red States that aren't likely to shift anyway, but it's likely the Democrats will see some losses. The Jan 6 hearings may not affect that much, except for the few cases of Trump hardliners who may be figures in the hearings.

The issue likely to be affected by the hearings is the split in the polling between popular opinion and Republican opinion on Trump returning to office. He is still the frontrunner of the 2024 Republican candidates, by a wide margin, while having highly unfavorable ratings for the general public.

FreequentFlier · Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:09 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

No, they really don’t care and you’re deluding yourself.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-harry- ... years/amp/

“CNN’s Harry Enten predicted Republicans will walk away from the November midterms with a huge majority in the U.S. House of Representatives and argued the party is in its best midterm position in more than 80 years.”

According to the most recent 2022 generic polls on FiveThirtyEight, Republicans have between a 2 and 10 point advantage in the midterms. It varies widely by region. Some of that advantage lies in Red States that aren't likely to shift anyway, but it's likely the Democrats will see some losses. The Jan 6 hearings may not affect that much, except for the few cases of Trump hardliners who may be figures in the hearings.

The issue likely to be affected by the hearings is the split in the polling between popular opinion and Republican opinion on Trump returning to office. He is still the frontrunner of the 2024 Republican candidates, by a wide margin, while having highly unfavorable ratings for the general public.

True, though voters have already rendered a verdict on Trump, and they don’t like him.

The fact that he is currently leading both Biden and Harris in current polls for 2024 is not due to a sudden affinity for him by voters, but rather a testament to how much the median voter now despises the Democrat party these days.

PhilBy · Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:29 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

No, they really don’t care and you’re deluding yourself.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-harry- ... years/amp/

“CNN’s Harry Enten predicted Republicans will walk away from the November midterms with a huge majority in the U.S. House of Representatives and argued the party is in its best midterm position in more than 80 years.”

According to the most recent 2022 generic polls on FiveThirtyEight, Republicans have between a 2 and 10 point advantage in the midterms. It varies widely by region. Some of that advantage lies in Red States that aren't likely to shift anyway, but it's likely the Democrats will see some losses. The Jan 6 hearings may not affect that much, except for the few cases of Trump hardliners who may be figures in the hearings.

The issue likely to be affected by the hearings is the split in the polling between popular opinion and Republican opinion on Trump returning to office. He is still the frontrunner of the 2024 Republican candidates, by a wide margin, while having highly unfavorable ratings for the general public.

Many European politcal commentator link this dislike of the Democrats to the refusal by the Democrat Party to put in place legal protections to ensure that political power is mainained by the proportionally dimishing "white Christian" part of the populace.

True, though voters have already rendered a verdict on Trump, and they don’t like him.

The fact that he is currently leading both Biden and Harris in current polls for 2024 is not due to a sudden affinity for him by voters, but rather a testament to how much the median voter now despises the Democrat party these days.

Avatar2go · Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:39 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

No, they really don’t care and you’re deluding yourself.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-harry- ... years/amp/

“CNN’s Harry Enten predicted Republicans will walk away from the November midterms with a huge majority in the U.S. House of Representatives and argued the party is in its best midterm position in more than 80 years.”

According to the most recent 2022 generic polls on FiveThirtyEight, Republicans have between a 2 and 10 point advantage in the midterms. It varies widely by region. Some of that advantage lies in Red States that aren't likely to shift anyway, but it's likely the Democrats will see some losses. The Jan 6 hearings may not affect that much, except for the few cases of Trump hardliners who may be figures in the hearings.

The issue likely to be affected by the hearings is the split in the polling between popular opinion and Republican opinion on Trump returning to office. He is still the frontrunner of the 2024 Republican candidates, by a wide margin, while having highly unfavorable ratings for the general public.

True, though voters have already rendered a verdict on Trump, and they don’t like him.

The fact that he is currently leading both Biden and Harris in current polls for 2024 is not due to a sudden affinity for him by voters, but rather a testament to how much the median voter now despises the Democrat party these days.

I would expect the public unfavorable margin to expand for Trump as a result of the hearings. The real question is when the Republicans will break away. Right now they see it as favorable to stay aligned for the midterms, out of political expediency. But that will change afterwards, as they have to know Trump is unelectable.

I have a friend who is a Republican political consultant. He says they know Trump is the third rail, but it's useful to keep him around, as he is merciless on the Democrats and energizes the base. Also that they knew the stolen election claim was false, but went along for the same reason, it helps them in the end. That would seem to be borne out by the hearing testimony of Hannity, Barr, & Ivanka. They all knew the truth. They are just the tip of the iceberg.

Sad that we live in an age where politicians look at a known lie and ask, does it help me? I'll support it for as long as it does. I asked my friend about this, he says all's fair in war and the Democrats would do the exact same thing to them. So each side feels justified in bad behavior by the other.

Avatar2go · Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:30 am

Coverage of the 2nd hearing begins at 10 am ET today. It will be carried by all the major networks, including Fox News this time.

Lol, Fox says the reason for the change is that daytime is for news, but primetime is for opinion. So much for the arguments that no one is watching. :lol:

Witnesses will include former Trump campaign officials, as well as others who were criticized or threatened by the Trump campaign for truthfully reporting election results.

GDB · Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:51 am

Newark727 wrote:
Isn't that the crux of the matter? There's no sin that can't be rationalized, justified, or overlooked as long as Republicans keep winning. Keep at it. You'll be defending Trump shooting a man on Fifth Avenue soon enough - just like he said you would.

Give him a gun he’d shoot himself in the foot.
Besides, 20 million viewing figures for the first days of hearings, someone IS watching, just not the hate and general looney mob then.

Virtual737 · Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:02 am

FreequentFlier wrote:
No, they really don’t care and you’re deluding yourself.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-harry- ... years/amp/

I wasn't for one moment meaning the morally bankrupt who would vote for someone like Trump. I meant those of us (including where I live which is not the US or even the West) who are looking on from afar in almost shock as to what now seems to be the norm in the US.

Avatar2go · Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:31 pm

Watching the second hearing, so glad they are documenting in extreme detail what happened, and how all the authorities told Trump that the election fraud allegations were false.

Although Fox News is carrying the hearing this time, they are still questioning capitol security as the root cause of events, and insisting that people aren't watching the hearings, and that Trump is still the Republican frontrunner for 2024.

FreequentFlier · Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:42 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
No, they really don’t care and you’re deluding yourself.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-harry- ... years/amp/

I wasn't for one moment meaning the morally bankrupt who would vote for someone like Trump. I meant those of us (including where I live which is not the US or even the West) who are looking on from afar in almost shock as to what now seems to be the norm in the US.

If you’re an international resident watching these hearings, then you’re an extreme outlier.

ltbewr · Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:01 pm

The noose is tightening on Trump and some others close to him with today's hearings. Some of that disclosed has been for months but the hearings confirm them.

Significant parts of testimony presented today, in particular of USAG Barr and the physically absent Bill Stephien (due to his wife having a baby) showed Trump was totally delusional, denying the reality that he lost, rejecting the advice of many of his closest advisors.

That Trump and a few close to him were willing to do whatever it took, including causing what was the terrorism on the US Capitol on 1/6/21 and with his supporters to cause violence on some election officials, Philadelphia and Georgia in particular, to overthrow the election to him. An expert testified, who was involved for GW Bush in the 2000 Florida votes in the Presidential election where the difference of less than 600 votes statewide, confirmed that there was no level of accused fraud that would have changed the votes in GA, and elsewhere for Trump.

That after the election Trump created a sham fund for state and local election challenges. It used fraud and deception of getting contributions, many millions had to be refunded to duped contributors, serous questions were raised as to the use of funds and questions raised where is the rest of the funds and if being used by Trump for his massive personal debts. If not long in progress, the DOJ needs to do a major investigation of this fund and likely abuses of its monies.

scbriml · Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:08 pm

FreequentFlier wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
No, they really don’t care and you’re deluding yourself.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-harry- ... years/amp/

I wasn't for one moment meaning the morally bankrupt who would vote for someone like Trump. I meant those of us (including where I live which is not the US or even the West) who are looking on from afar in almost shock as to what now seems to be the norm in the US.

If you’re an international resident watching these hearings, then you’re an extreme outlier.

There are more of us than you're prepared to believe. It's train-wreck TV.

Kent350787 · Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:18 pm

scbriml wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

I wasn't for one moment meaning the morally bankrupt who would vote for someone like Trump. I meant those of us (including where I live which is not the US or even the West) who are looking on from afar in almost shock as to what now seems to be the norm in the US.

If you’re an international resident watching these hearings, then you’re an extreme outlier.

There are more of us than you're prepared to believe. It's train-wreck TV.

Yup. Compellingly awful viewing that may not be lead story but is definitely front page but prob not lead story here in Australia. Truly train wreck stuff from our strongest ally, but we as a country found it difficult that Trump had been elected president anyway.

America really seems close to being a failed democracy.

Avatar2go · Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:34 pm

Kent350787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

If you’re an international resident watching these hearings, then you’re an extreme outlier.

There are more of us than you're prepared to believe. It's train-wreck TV.

Yup. Compellingly awful viewing that may not be lead story but is definitely front page but prob not lead story here in Australia. Truly train wreck stuff from our strongest ally, but we as a country found it difficult that Trump had been elected president anyway.

America really seems close to being a failed democracy.

Wouldn't say it's failed, challenged maybe. The Constitution was written so no one individual can gain too much power. But the founding fathers could not have foreseen talk radio and social media, which allows political propaganda messaging on a 24/7 basis to be inserted directly into people's lives.

That has created a subset of the population that now is attuned to the propaganda rather than the truth. As Bill Barr said today, out of touch with reality. Trump is just the figurehead of that problem.

So the next phase of our democracy is figuring out how to deal with that problem. Removing Trump from social media was a major step forward, but was only possible on the basis of how extreme his views were. We need to have a more general discussion on accountability and editorial standards in the Internet and media conglomerate era.

Kent350787 · Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:40 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Kent350787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

There are more of us than you're prepared to believe. It's train-wreck TV.

Yup. Compellingly awful viewing that may not be lead story but is definitely front page but prob not lead story here in Australia. Truly train wreck stuff from our strongest ally, but we as a country found it difficult that Trump had been elected president anyway.

America really seems close to being a failed democracy.

Wouldn't say it's failed, challenged maybe. The Constitution was written so no one individual can gain too much power. But the founding fathers could not have foreseen talk radio and social media, which allows political propaganda messaging on a 24/7 basis to be inserted directly into people's lives.

That has created a subset of the population that now is attuned to the propaganda rather than the truth. As Bill Barr said today, out of touch with reality. Trump is just the figurehead of that problem.

So the next phase of our democracy is figuring out how to deal with that problem. Removing Trump from social media was a major step forward, but was only possible on the basis of how extreme his views were. We need to have a more general discussion on accountability and editorial standards in the Internet and media conglomerate era.

I agree that all is one part of it, but the other part it what appears in some places to be traducing the notion of "one person, one vote". Australia has the same issue of the "States' house", but the US compounds this "unrepresentative swill" (to quote a former prime minister) with the Electoral college allocations that favour land over people. Then there is the lack of independence and bipartisanship around electoral boundaries.

Jan 6 was hopefully the culmination of a certain type of indoctrination, but there seem to be a lot of other things to address to "save US democracy"

Avatar2go · Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:56 pm

Kent350787 wrote:

I agree that all is one part of it, but the other part it what appears in some places to be traducing the notion of "one person, one vote". Australia has the same issue of the "States' house", but the US compounds this "unrepresentative swill" (to quote a former prime minister) with the Electoral college allocations that favour land over people. Then there is the lack of independence and bipartisanship around electoral boundaries.

Jan 6 was hopefully the culmination of a certain type of indoctrination, but there seem to be a lot of other things to address to "save US democracy"

The electoral college was meant to be a safeguard against democratic reactionary populism, which the founders had seen wreak havoc in Europe. But has had unintended consequences in a few cases.

Still it was accepted as part of the Constitution and the wisdom of the founders, until the polarization that we now see, and the 2020 attempt to leverage it to retain power. That was never envisioned by the founders.

So the question is whether to abolish it, or adjust it to prevent it from being abused. Another discussion we need to have.

Gerrymandering remains a hot button topic, due to its partisan nature. Other nations seem to have fairer and less political methods for deciding electoral boundaries. Yet another discussion.

Avatar2go · Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:35 am

A county election commission in New Mexico has refused to certify their June primary election, due to suspicion of their Dominion voting machines. This is baseless as with all the previous claims, but is a legacy of the Trump election fraud conspiracy theory.

Also as with Arizona, there are non-certified election consultants advising the commission, as well as a commissioner who is awaiting sentencing for participation on Jan 6. This will likely end up in the courts.

We may see more of this in the coming midterms. As both Ben Ginsberg and Bill Barr stated, there was significant damage done to the confidence of the loyalists to trust elections.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/g ... g-machines

VolvoBus · Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:46 am

Avatar2go wrote:
A county election commission in New Mexico has refused to certify their June primary election, due to suspicion of their Dominion voting machines. This is baseless as with all the previous claims, but is a legacy of the Trump election fraud conspiracy theory.

Also as with Arizona, there are non-certified election consultants advising the commission, as well as a commissioner who is awaiting sentencing for participation on Jan 6. This will likely end up in the courts.

We may see more of this in the coming midterms. As both Ben Ginsberg and Bill Barr stated, there was significant damage done to the confidence of the loyalists to trust elections.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/g ... g-machines

OK, somebody has to ask.

If the election commission is suspicious of the Dominion voting machines, why were they used ?

ltbewr · Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:56 am

Wednesday, 6/15 hearing session postponed to give more time for staff to prepare the video presentations and scheduling, availability of committee members and of live witnesses. Of course some see this in other ways.The Thursday, 6/16 hearing and its subject will continue as scheduled. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jan-6-comm ... al-issues/
Late Monday, 6/13, Donald Trump give a 12 page response to the 1/6 Committee's work, mostly rehashing his usual garbage of 'election fraud'. https://www.yahoo.com/gma/trump-issues- ... 13923.html

casinterest · Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:49 pm

ltbewr wrote:
Wednesday, 6/15 hearing session postponed to give more time for staff to prepare the video presentations and scheduling, availability of committee members and of live witnesses. Of course some see this in other ways.The Thursday, 6/16 hearing and its subject will continue as scheduled. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jan-6-comm ... al-issues/
Late Monday, 6/13, Donald Trump give a 12 page response to the 1/6 Committee's work, mostly rehashing his usual garbage of 'election fraud'. https://www.yahoo.com/gma/trump-issues- ... 13923.html

Well at least Trump is doubling down on his Fraud. it will make the campaigns on his pet candidates and their ignorant supporters that much easier in the fall. Especially as criminal charges are drawn up.

seb146 · Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:10 pm

VolvoBus wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
A county election commission in New Mexico has refused to certify their June primary election, due to suspicion of their Dominion voting machines. This is baseless as with all the previous claims, but is a legacy of the Trump election fraud conspiracy theory.

Also as with Arizona, there are non-certified election consultants advising the commission, as well as a commissioner who is awaiting sentencing for participation on Jan 6. This will likely end up in the courts.

We may see more of this in the coming midterms. As both Ben Ginsberg and Bill Barr stated, there was significant damage done to the confidence of the loyalists to trust elections.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/g ... g-machines

OK, somebody has to ask.

If the election commission is suspicious of the Dominion voting machines, why were they used ?

Probably to keep the narrative alive. If they continue using Dominion machines, they can say "it's the machines fault" when their (Republican) candidates lose.

Avatar2go · Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:49 pm

VolvoBus wrote:

OK, somebody has to ask.

If the election commission is suspicious of the Dominion voting machines, why were they used ?

The election conspiracy couple that is advising the commission, is still claiming Dominion allowed the 2020 election to be manipulated. They gave multiple in-depth presentations to the commission purporting to prove this. It's all nonsense, but if you are primed and predisposed to believe, then you do.

Confirmation bias taken to an extreme level. I believe something which is false, so I therefore also believe false information presented in support of my false belief

skyservice_330 · Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:55 pm

People may not watch this. And the Dems may lose in the Fall. And that is OK. This isn't about TV ratings or the midterms. This is about uncovering the involvement of the Commander of Chief, and those closest to him, in an insurrection and an attempt to prevent the peaceful transition of power following a lawfully held election. Doing the right thing won't always win you elections or ratings, but it doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.

The story around the $250M has been interesting - will be interesting to learn more about that.

Also - who the f*ck cares about M*A*S*H?

casinterest · Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:15 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
People may not watch this. And the Dems may lose in the Fall. And that is OK. This isn't about TV ratings or the midterms. This is about uncovering the involvement of the Commander of Chief, and those closest to him, in an insurrection and an attempt to prevent the peaceful transition of power following a lawfully held election. Doing the right thing won't always win you elections or ratings, but it doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.

The story around the $250M has been interesting - will be interesting to learn more about that.

Also - who the f*ck cares about M*A*S*H?

The millions raised off of the Big Lie, are fraud. However given the lack of moral fortitude among those donors, i would imagine they would be fine giving the money anyway.

https://rollcall.com/2022/06/13/trump-p ... anel-says/

The bigger issue will be the dominion lawsuits, and whether the congress will ever punish Trump for failing to faithfully defend the US.

Avatar2go · Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:54 pm

Just watching interviews with Republican members of Congress. Several said they have not watched any of the hearings because it's just a Democratic campaign commercial. Reminds me of people who want to ban books without having read them.

The messaging is very clear, they don't want people watching. Don't look up!

skyservice_330 · Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:45 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Just watching interviews with Republican members of Congress. Several said they have not watched any of the hearings because it's just a Democratic campaign commercial. Reminds me of people who want to ban books without having read them.

The messaging is very clear, they don't want people watching. Don't look up!

Its quite amusing - It is a partisan Dem campaign commercial! they roar ... which has so far mainly featured Trump loyalists and family members.

How dare those Democrats like Bill Barr and Ivanka speak out on what happened!
:rotfl:

luckyone · Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:55 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
Just watching interviews with Republican members of Congress. Several said they have not watched any of the hearings because it's just a Democratic campaign commercial. Reminds me of people who want to ban books without having read them.

The messaging is very clear, they don't want people watching. Don't look up!

Its quite amusing - It is a partisan Dem campaign commercial! they roar ... which has so far mainly featured Trump loyalists and family members.

How dare those Democrats like Bill Barr and Ivanka speak out on what happened!

Which in typical political fashion that's how it will go unless/until a "smoking gun" is found.

skyservice_330 · Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:05 pm

You would think the President expressing a positive view of the VP being hung by his supporters would constitute a 'smoking gun' but, alas, here we are...

Avatar2go · Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:14 pm

One of the things that really struck me about the hearings is the Republican witnesses almost seemed relieved to have an opportunity to talk about what happened. It had to be weighing on them, but they were loyal and remained quiet. That's why these hearings are so important.

With the exception of Ivanka, who understandably was trying to limit what she said about her father, so only really talked about her confidence in Barr. That had to be a hard thing for her.

luckyone · Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:28 pm

skyservice_330 wrote:
You would think the President expressing a positive view of the VP being hung by his supporters would constitute a 'smoking gun' but, alas, here we are...

Unless it's first hand it's hearsay.

Avatar2go · Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:07 pm

luckyone wrote:
skyservice_330 wrote:
You would think the President expressing a positive view of the VP being hung by his supporters would constitute a 'smoking gun' but, alas, here we are...

Unless it's first hand it's hearsay.

Except that Trump is on record defending the calls to hang Pence, and there is no doubt where they got that idea:

Jon Karl: "They were saying 'hang Mike Pence.'"

Trump: "Because it's common sense, Jon. It's common sense that you're supposed to protect. How can you — if you know a vote is fraudulent, right? — how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress? How can you do that? And I'm telling you: 50/50, it's right down the middle for the top constitutional scholars when I speak to them. Anybody I spoke to — almost all of them at least pretty much agree, and some very much agree with me — because he's passing on a vote that he knows is fraudulent. How can you pass a vote that you know is fraudulent?"

skyservice_330 · Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:45 pm

The tour angle and 'who knew what and when' is another interesting twist in all this.

On Jan 5 a group of visitors toured areas of the capitol that are, apparently, not typically toured by visitors - security checkpoints, staircases. One of those individuals participated in the insurrection the next day and is on camera saying 'there is no escape' for Dem members.

Rep. Loudermilk may have been, unwittingly, used as a way to gain access so the insurrectionists could scope out the layout of the building in advance of their attack and search for Dem members.

seb146 · Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:44 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
One of the things that really struck me about the hearings is the Republican witnesses almost seemed relieved to have an opportunity to talk about what happened. It had to be weighing on them, but they were loyal and remained quiet. That's why these hearings are so important.

With the exception of Ivanka, who understandably was trying to limit what she said about her father, so only really talked about her confidence in Barr. That had to be a hard thing for her.

They all say the same thing:

I WANTED to do the right thing!!!

But, they didn't. These same people are asking for forgiveness for being silent and even backing the attempted coup. For a year and a half, they have remained silent.

Avatar2go · Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:07 pm

seb146 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
One of the things that really struck me about the hearings is the Republican witnesses almost seemed relieved to have an opportunity to talk about what happened. It had to be weighing on them, but they were loyal and remained quiet. That's why these hearings are so important.

With the exception of Ivanka, who understandably was trying to limit what she said about her father, so only really talked about her confidence in Barr. That had to be a hard thing for her.

They all say the same thing:

I WANTED to do the right thing!!!

But, they didn't. These same people are asking for forgiveness for being silent and even backing the attempted coup. For a year and a half, they have remained silent.

Agreed that they remained quiet and that's a problem. But in terms of what they did in the moment, they did the right thing, fortunately for all of us. Thompson was correct to point that out today, and give them full credit. Defending the Constitution is not a partisan issue.

On Fox News afterwards today, they emphasized that the system worked as intended, and that they have not proved criminal charges against Trump, and that there is no alternative viewpoint presented, or the ability to cross-examine or question the testimony. So Fox questions the need for the committee or the investigation.

Given that the case has been entirely constructed around Republican witnesses and testimony, and the sheer volume of consistent testimony, I don't know what they think would be altered by cross-examination. Also the fact that the system worked, is beside the point of inciting the public to stop the certification, which is itself against the Constitution.

There is an absolute need to document what happened, and to clarify the law so there is no future attempt to use the same reasoning against election results.

ltbewr · Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:31 pm

The first half of Thursday's hearings got bogged down with the meaning of the Constitution and laws as to the process of finalizing the Presidential election. The second half was better as to today's theme of how there was unconstitutional, seditious and mob violence acts to pressure VP Pence to throw out the vote and EC votes of up to 7 states, to return the EC vote back to the states to attempt to overthrow the vote to Trump (and Pence continuing as VP. Today's timeline started in early to mid-December to Jan. 7th, showing how the plots to overturn the elections developed, objections to some to doing it, the total illegality of it.
Next to then Pres. Trump, John Eastman seems to be the worst of those in this attempted violent coup. Eastman and a few others were pandering to Trump as to his desire to overturn the election. One has to wonder what Eastman would get if he succeeded. He needs to be tried and sent to the Supermax prison on charges of sedition. VP Pence, seems to come out relatively well, he knew the attempt to overturn the election results was illegal and wrong, he consulted with several persons and (along with a top aide who testified today) even the bible for back up to his position, he clearly made sure he didn't leave the Capitol until the duty of the final certification of the EC vote to chose per the results Joe Biden as President.
Today's hearing just shows the absolute horror Trump was as President. Clearly one big goal of the Committee and all Democrats, is to make sure Donald Trump cannot run for President in 2024 with another important goal to revise or create new laws to prevent any attempt to subvert any future Presidential election.

Avatar2go · Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:11 am

ltbewr wrote:
The first half of Thursday's hearings got bogged down with the meaning of the Constitution and laws as to the process of finalizing the Presidential election. The second half was better as to today's theme of how there was unconstitutional, seditious and mob violence acts to pressure VP Pence to throw out the vote and EC votes of up to 7 states, to return the EC vote back to the states to attempt to overthrow the vote to Trump (and Pence continuing as VP. Today's timeline started in early to mid-December to Jan. 7th, showing how the plots to overturn the elections developed, objections to some to doing it, the total illegality of it.
Next to then Pres. Trump, John Eastman seems to be the worst of those in this attempted violent coup. Eastman and a few others were pandering to Trump as to his desire to overturn the election. One has to wonder what Eastman would get if he succeeded. He needs to be tried and sent to the Supermax prison on charges of sedition. VP Pence, seems to come out relatively well, he knew the attempt to overturn the election results was illegal and wrong, he consulted with several persons and (along with a top aide who testified today) even the bible for back up to his position, he clearly made sure he didn't leave the Capitol until the duty of the final certification of the EC vote to chose per the results Joe Biden as President.
Today's hearing just shows the absolute horror Trump was as President. Clearly one big goal of the Committee and all Democrats, is to make sure Donald Trump cannot run for President in 2024 with another important goal to revise or create new laws to prevent any attempt to subvert any future Presidential election.

Good assessment. Judge Luttig has written excellent opinions on Jan 6, but has a speaking difficulty which made it hard to communicate his testimony. But what he said was really important. His written opinion is here, for anyone that wants to read.

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... -final.pdf

af773atmsp · Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:00 am

I dislike Mike Pence, but I'll give him credit for not going along with Trump's plan to overturn the election. He could've easily done so, which would've added a lot more fuel to the fire.

Avatar2go · Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:41 am

The plan was to get Pence to declare the alternate slates of electors from the five disputed states as valid, instead of the slates nominated by the legislatures based on the vote. That would have made Trump the President-elect. This depended on the Supreme Court refusing to hear the inevitable challenge, based on the political exception.

Or to throw the nomination back to the legislatures for resolution between the two slates, which depended on the Republican legislatures selecting the alternate electors, and also again for the Supreme Court to refuse the challenge.

If the Court did decide to hear the case, they knew they would lose, and Eastman admitted as much.

A telling fact, when Jacob challenged Eastman that this would set a precedent for Vice Presidential powers in an election, Eastman said it wouldn't, that this was a one-time special case based on the fraud that had ocurred.

Also when Jacob pointed out that the Court refusing to resolve the issue would result in violence, as the two sides clashed in the streets, Eastman responded that other issues in America had been decided by violence. Which goes directly to the incitement of the crowd on Jan 6, and the failure to intervene.

A truly crazy scheme they cooked up.

ltbewr · Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:25 am

Ginny Thomas, a conservative activist and wife of SCOTUS Justice Thomas, is being considered to testify before the J6 committee due to advisory e-mails with John Eastman the leading supporter of the overthrow of the election by VP Pence. https://news.yahoo.com/jan-6-committee- ... 00558.html

This is very disturbing in that her husband, Justice Thomas has participated and ruled in legal challenges as to the elections and Trump.This also brings up if she was the 'leaker' as to the disclosure of the draft ruling/opinion of Justice Alito that may reverse in full or part Roe v. Wade.

Avatar2go · Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:28 am

Interestingly, Mrs. Thomas wants to testify and clear her name, so that should provide some additional insight as to what occurred.

A key point is that Eastman initially argued with Jacob that Justice Thomas would vote in favor of Pence selecting the electors. Jacob was confused as to where that came from, as Thomas' judicial record indicates the complete opposite. Eventually Jacob persuaded Eastman that no Justice would support that action. I expect that will be a central theme of the committee's questioning, since Eastman has refused to cooperate or explain.

marcelh · Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:47 am

Kent350787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:

If you’re an international resident watching these hearings, then you’re an extreme outlier.

There are more of us than you're prepared to believe. It's train-wreck TV.

Yup. Compellingly awful viewing that may not be lead story but is definitely front page but prob not lead story here in Australia. Truly train wreck stuff from our strongest ally, but we as a country found it difficult that Trump had been elected president anyway.

America really seems close to being a failed democracy.

Harsh words but unfortunately the truth.

Avatar2go · Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:48 pm

An anti-vaccine doctor went to the Capitol protest on Jan 6 to film a speech against various government COVID policies. She went into the building during the riot to film her speech in Statuary Hall, and kept speaking after police asked her to leave, so was arrested. Now convicted and charged.

Her organization, America's Frontline Doctors, raised $430,000 for her defense.

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/202 ... utType=amp

scbriml · Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:23 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
An anti-vaccine doctor went to the Capitol protest on Jan 6 to film a speech against various government COVID policies. She went into the building during the riot to film her speech in Statuary Hall, and kept speaking after police asked her to leave, so was arrested. Now convicted and charged.

Her organization, America's Frontline Doctors, raised $430,000 for her defense.

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/202 ... utType=amp

"If only they'd followed the instructions of the police!" is a phrase much-loved by law-abiding conservatives. Oh the irony.

Apart from that, she sounds like a nutcase anti-doctor. Maybe there's a career opportunity for her as Trump's personal physician?

hh65man · Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:03 pm

If Trump truly actually believes with all his heart the election was stolen, and there was massive fraud, then he truly isn’t mentally fit to be President.

Perhaps in the future any person who feels qualified to run for any government office should have to pass a psych evaluation.

seb146 · Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:16 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
One of the things that really struck me about the hearings is the Republican witnesses almost seemed relieved to have an opportunity to talk about what happened. It had to be weighing on them, but they were loyal and remained quiet. That's why these hearings are so important.

With the exception of Ivanka, who understandably was trying to limit what she said about her father, so only really talked about her confidence in Barr. That had to be a hard thing for her.

They all say the same thing:

I WANTED to do the right thing!!!

But, they didn't. These same people are asking for forgiveness for being silent and even backing the attempted coup. For a year and a half, they have remained silent.

Agreed that they remained quiet and that's a problem. But in terms of what they did in the moment, they did the right thing, fortunately for all of us. Thompson was correct to point that out today, and give them full credit. Defending the Constitution is not a partisan issue.

On Fox News afterwards today, they emphasized that the system worked as intended, and that they have not proved criminal charges against Trump, and that there is no alternative viewpoint presented, or the ability to cross-examine or question the testimony. So Fox questions the need for the committee or the investigation.

Given that the case has been entirely constructed around Republican witnesses and testimony, and the sheer volume of consistent testimony, I don't know what they think would be altered by cross-examination. Also the fact that the system worked, is beside the point of inciting the public to stop the certification, which is itself against the Constitution.

There is an absolute need to document what happened, and to clarify the law so there is no future attempt to use the same reasoning against election results.

In other words:

don't punish anyone and set a precedent. Which is wonderful for Biden or Harris. They can do the exact same thing and not face any repercussions. Because the system works.

We are just going to ignore the call to Raffensperger?

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 17648693b7

We are just going to ignore the fake electors?

https://www.koco.com/article/january-6- ... 2/40305201

The coup failed this time, but we will not be so lucky next time. There must be consequences for attempting to overthrow the government.

casinterest · Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:57 am

seb146 wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
seb146 wrote:

They all say the same thing:

I WANTED to do the right thing!!!

But, they didn't. These same people are asking for forgiveness for being silent and even backing the attempted coup. For a year and a half, they have remained silent.

Agreed that they remained quiet and that's a problem. But in terms of what they did in the moment, they did the right thing, fortunately for all of us. Thompson was correct to point that out today, and give them full credit. Defending the Constitution is not a partisan issue.

On Fox News afterwards today, they emphasized that the system worked as intended, and that they have not proved criminal charges against Trump, and that there is no alternative viewpoint presented, or the ability to cross-examine or question the testimony. So Fox questions the need for the committee or the investigation.

Given that the case has been entirely constructed around Republican witnesses and testimony, and the sheer volume of consistent testimony, I don't know what they think would be altered by cross-examination. Also the fact that the system worked, is beside the point of inciting the public to stop the certification, which is itself against the Constitution.

There is an absolute need to document what happened, and to clarify the law so there is no future attempt to use the same reasoning against election results.

In other words:

don't punish anyone and set a precedent. Which is wonderful for Biden or Harris. They can do the exact same thing and not face any repercussions. Because the system works.

We are just going to ignore the call to Raffensperger?

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 17648693b7

We are just going to ignore the fake electors?

https://www.koco.com/article/january-6- ... 2/40305201

The coup failed this time, but we will not be so lucky next time. There must be consequences for attempting to overthrow the government.

As evidenced by the Texas GOP yesterday, Trump has not been charged because the GOP continues to lack the ability to find the integrity necessary to do the right thing. The GOP failed to impeach Trump in light of overwhelming evidence, and they continue to believe in a "stolen election" despite the lack of any evidence. A political party marooned from reality is not capable of leadership and righting the course when it is demanded to hold elected officials accountable for their very real transgressions when holding executive power.

BoeingG · Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:23 pm

My opinion is that this crusade against Trump is unwarranted. These hearings (read: theatrics) are a distraction from the pitiful state of our economy—unfettered inflation (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61569559) and gas prices (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61569559), and the specter of a recession (https://www.wsj.com/articles/recession- ... 1655631002).

I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, but rather conveying the consequence of obsessing over a *former* (i.e., powerless) president: ignorance to the issues that matter. $1.6 million was spent 1Q 2022 alone on these hearings (https://abcnews.go.com/US/jan-committee ... d=83164749). Sorry if I don't think a fringe faction is worth that much.

Frankly, the media has hyperbolized what amounts to vandalism—something Trump expressly denounced in his January 6 Capitol speech (the one that supposedly "incited" an "insurrection"): https://prnt.sc/PwPSmle0y4sl (source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/1 ... ary-speech). I certainly don't condone what happened, but it's high time to move on.

On the other hand, it's curious that certain leftists won't hold congressmen/women for their hand in "inciting" BLM "protests." A direct quote from Ms. Pressley: "There needs to be unrest in the streets for as long as there's unrest in our lives. And unfortunately, there's plenty to go around..." (source: https://factcheck.afp.com/quotes-us-dem ... s-violence).

Surely, if Trump's speech constitutes "inciting" violence, this does as well. The damage the so-called January 6 "insurrectionists" caused ($1.5 million: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/one-yea ... 20building.) pales in comparison to the $1 billion+ damages by BLM "protestors": https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots- ... rty-damage

Sad that people are only held accountable when it's convenient.

Aaron747 · Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:31 pm

BoeingG wrote:
My opinion is that this crusade against Trump is unwarranted. These hearings (read: theatrics) are a distraction from the pitiful state of our economy—unfettered inflation (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61569559) and gas prices (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61569559), and the specter of a recession (https://www.wsj.com/articles/recession- ... 1655631002).

I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, but rather conveying the consequence of obsessing over a *former* (i.e., powerless) president: ignorance to the issues that matter. $1.6 million was spent 1Q 2022 alone on these hearings (https://abcnews.go.com/US/jan-committee ... d=83164749). Sorry if I don't think a fringe faction is worth that much.

Frankly, the media has hyperbolized what amounts to vandalism—something Trump expressly denounced in his January 6 Capitol speech (the one that supposedly "incited" an "insurrection"): https://prnt.sc/PwPSmle0y4sl (source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/1 ... ary-speech). I certainly don't condone what happened, but it's high time to move on.

On the other hand, it's curious that certain leftists won't hold congressmen/women for their hand in "inciting" BLM "protests." A direct quote from Ms. Pressley: "There needs to be unrest in the streets for as long as there's unrest in our lives. And unfortunately, there's plenty to go around..." (source: https://factcheck.afp.com/quotes-us-dem ... s-violence).

Surely, if Trump's speech constitutes "inciting" violence, this does as well. The damage the so-called January 6 "insurrectionists" caused ($1.5 million: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/one-yea ... 20building.) pales in comparison to the $1 billion+ damages by BLM "protestors": https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots- ... rty-damage

Sad that people are only held accountable when it's convenient.

Cool whataboutism story, bro. Care to point out where in the last links any leaders are 'inciting' rioting? Unrest in the streets in the form of people of all ages linking arms is not the same as opportunistic anarchists and teenage gangbangers torching small businesses. Hint: the former is political and attended by people who watch news, the latter aint.

BoeingG · Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:15 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
BoeingG wrote:
My opinion is that this crusade against Trump is unwarranted. These hearings (read: theatrics) are a distraction from the pitiful state of our economy—unfettered inflation (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61569559) and gas prices (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61569559), and the specter of a recession (https://www.wsj.com/articles/recession- ... 1655631002).

I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, but rather conveying the consequence of obsessing over a *former* (i.e., powerless) president: ignorance to the issues that matter. $1.6 million was spent 1Q 2022 alone on these hearings (https://abcnews.go.com/US/jan-committee ... d=83164749). Sorry if I don't think a fringe faction is worth that much.

Frankly, the media has hyperbolized what amounts to vandalism—something Trump expressly denounced in his January 6 Capitol speech (the one that supposedly "incited" an "insurrection"): https://prnt.sc/PwPSmle0y4sl (source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/1 ... ary-speech). I certainly don't condone what happened, but it's high time to move on.

On the other hand, it's curious that certain leftists won't hold congressmen/women for their hand in "inciting" BLM "protests." A direct quote from Ms. Pressley: "There needs to be unrest in the streets for as long as there's unrest in our lives. And unfortunately, there's plenty to go around..." (source: https://factcheck.afp.com/quotes-us-dem ... s-violence).

Surely, if Trump's speech constitutes "inciting" violence, this does as well. The damage the so-called January 6 "insurrectionists" caused ($1.5 million: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/one-yea ... 20building.) pales in comparison to the $1 billion+ damages by BLM "protestors": https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots- ... rty-damage

Sad that people are only held accountable when it's convenient.

Cool whataboutism story, bro. Care to point out where in the last links any leaders are 'inciting' rioting? Unrest in the streets in the form of people of all ages linking arms is not the same as opportunistic anarchists and teenage gangbangers torching small businesses. Hint: the former is political and attended by people who watch news, the latter aint.

"not the same as opportunistic anarchists and teenage gangbangers torching small businesses."

Who's to say they were opportunistic? They woke up one day and decided to pillage black-owned businesses? They weren't encouraged by politicians and the media to do so? (Hint: that's rhetorical, which you'd know if you read the link I provided.)

We're getting a bit sidetracked from OP's post. I encourage you to read the rest of my comment re: the hearings and their futility, and respond sans immaturity.

scbriml · Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:47 pm

BoeingG wrote:
My opinion is that this crusade against Trump is unwarranted. These hearings (read: theatrics) are a distraction from the pitiful state of our economy—unfettered inflation (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61569559) and gas prices (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61569559), and the specter of a recession (https://www.wsj.com/articles/recession- ... 1655631002).

I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, but rather conveying the consequence of obsessing over a *former* (i.e., powerless) president: ignorance to the issues that matter. $1.6 million was spent 1Q 2022 alone on these hearings (https://abcnews.go.com/US/jan-committee ... d=83164749). Sorry if I don't think a fringe faction is worth that much.

Frankly, the media has hyperbolized what amounts to vandalism—something Trump expressly denounced in his January 6 Capitol speech (the one that supposedly "incited" an "insurrection"): https://prnt.sc/PwPSmle0y4sl (source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/1 ... ary-speech). I certainly don't condone what happened, but it's high time to move on.

On the other hand, it's curious that certain leftists won't hold congressmen/women for their hand in "inciting" BLM "protests." A direct quote from Ms. Pressley: "There needs to be unrest in the streets for as long as there's unrest in our lives. And unfortunately, there's plenty to go around..." (source: https://factcheck.afp.com/quotes-us-dem ... s-violence).

Surely, if Trump's speech constitutes "inciting" violence, this does as well. The damage the so-called January 6 "insurrectionists" caused ($1.5 million: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/one-yea ... 20building.) pales in comparison to the $1 billion+ damages by BLM "protestors": https://www.axios.com/2020/09/16/riots- ... rty-damage

Sad that people are only held accountable when it's convenient.

Yeah, let's just pretend Trump and his gullible followers/worshipers didn't try to subvert the whole democratic process. Let's just move on.... Ooh look, a squirrel!

Avatar2go · Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:24 pm

BoeingG wrote:
My opinion is that this crusade against Trump is unwarranted. These hearings (read: theatrics) are a distraction from the pitiful state of our economy—unfettered inflation, and the specter of a recession.

In all seriousness, I could not imagine anything more important to document than a sitting President not accepting his defeat, then pursuing multiple methods to overturn the election, including pushing an outrageous election fraud lie that he knew to be untrue. Yet is still pushing to this day.

If you doubt the massive damage done to the nation by those actions, and the Jan 6 Capital riots were not enough to convince you, you need only look at the Texas GOP platform passed yesterday:

https://www.axios.com/2022/06/19/texas- ... ntion-maga

The truth is that the nation has survived inflation before, has survived recessions before, and will again in future. But the attempt to alter an election is a new first, and a new low, in American history. Absolutely vital that a clear record of it be established, that the American people be fully informed, and that election laws be changed to prevent another end-run attempt in future.

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