Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:06 pm

casinterest wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Looks like their is corroboration of Hutchinson's account from within the SS itself.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/01/politics ... index.html?

Anyone else wonder why Trump is so pissed off at Hutchinson's testimony? It seems there may be more truth than most are willing to accept in the Trump Support Channels.


This version seems plausible. If Trump was upset and irate, and cussing out his security detail, he may have jumped forward in his seat to more fully assert himself, but without the intention of grabbing the wheel or assaulting anyone.

Ultimately we need to get everyone on the record, under oath. The "sources" thing tends to be destabilizing, and it distracts from the overall message of what Trump did.


The biggest issue is how complicit he was in selling the lie about voter fraud, and then working as hard as he could to destroy the US election. However those overarching themes are too complex to keep many poorly educated folks attention.


The right is very heavily invested in not accepting the truth of what happened. It's been said that if we don't do something about Jan 6, it will happen again. I didn't accept that at first, since Trump was so completely over the top that it seemed unlikely we'd have a repeat. But listening to some of the defenses that are mounted, I'm not so sure now. There are people in Trump World who would do something similar again, in a heartbeat, and not consider it wrong.

The conservative media has put forth the message for so long, and so consistently, that "they're coming for you, and they'll take what you have", that many on the right see it as warfare, where anything goes. If we don't do this to them, they will or are already doing it to us.

Trump basically said that outright, when he claimed that the election would be stolen, over a year in advance. If you can villianize the adversary, that justifies anything you subsequently do to them. It's Putin 101, as we see in Ukraine. No wonder Trump admires him, he carries out in Russia what Trump has been unable to do in the US.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15711
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:24 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

This version seems plausible. If Trump was upset and irate, and cussing out his security detail, he may have jumped forward in his seat to more fully assert himself, but without the intention of grabbing the wheel or assaulting anyone.

Ultimately we need to get everyone on the record, under oath. The "sources" thing tends to be destabilizing, and it distracts from the overall message of what Trump did.


The biggest issue is how complicit he was in selling the lie about voter fraud, and then working as hard as he could to destroy the US election. However those overarching themes are too complex to keep many poorly educated folks attention.


The right is very heavily invested in not accepting the truth of what happened. It's been said that if we don't do something about Jan 6, it will happen again. I didn't accept that at first, since Trump was so completely over the top that it seemed unlikely we'd have a repeat. But listening to some of the defenses that are mounted, I'm not so sure now. There are people in Trump World who would do something similar again, in a heartbeat, and not consider it wrong.

The conservative media has put forth the message for so long, and so consistently, that "they're coming for you, and they'll take what you have", that many on the right see it as warfare, where anything goes. If we don't do this to them, they will or are already doing it to us.

Trump basically said that outright, when he claimed that the election would be stolen, over a year in advance. If you can villianize the adversary, that justifies anything you subsequently do to them. It's Putin 101, as we see in Ukraine. No wonder Trump admires him, he carries out in Russia what Trump has been unable to do in the US.


It's not Putin 101. it is the same batch of us vs them that started two world wars. That is the issue with right wing media. They don't focus on solutions. They focus on how they can blame others.

Look at the current oil and gas issues. It's not a matter of inflation and supply issues to them. it is about blaming democrats. Weak minds lead to corrupt governments, and that is what the GOP currently champions.
 
FGITD
Posts: 2159
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:20 pm

Avatar2go wrote:

Ultimately we need to get everyone on the record, under oath. The "sources" thing tends to be destabilizing, and it distracts from the overall message of what Trump did.


This is the most frustrating aspect of it all for me. Witness says under oath that something happened. Immediately the news is full of anonymous sources that claim that thing never happened. People now believe the person under oath was lying.

If you’re not willing to say it under oath, then it shouldn’t be given any attention.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24790
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:40 am

FGITD wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:

Ultimately we need to get everyone on the record, under oath. The "sources" thing tends to be destabilizing, and it distracts from the overall message of what Trump did.


This is the most frustrating aspect of it all for me. Witness says under oath that something happened. Immediately the news is full of anonymous sources that claim that thing never happened. People now believe the person under oath was lying.

If you’re not willing to say it under oath, then it shouldn’t be given any attention.


But "anonymous sources" when there was a child trafficking ring in the basement of a Washington DC pizza parlor was acceptable and "anonymous sources" over Obama's birth was acceptable and "anonymous sources" over Hunter Biden's laptop
 
ltbewr
Topic Author
Posts: 16264
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:49 am

The next public hearing session of the J6 Committee is scheduled for July 12 at 10 AM. It will focus on the domestic extremists groups that in part help organize the mob terror attack on the Capitol and connections to Trump and leaders of the groups. Leadership persons of the 2 main domestic extremists groups were indicted earlier this year on serious charges for their part in organizing and carrying out the terror attack in the name of Trump to overthrow the election. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnb7Kz
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:22 pm

Jan 6 hearing today described the all day meeting at the Whitehouse after the electoral college met, on Dec 18th. A screaming match between the Whitehouse counsel and Team Trump (Powell, Guliani, Flynn, the Overstock guy).

The team tried to hold the meeting unscheduled with Trump alone, but the WH counsel raced down the hall when they realized what was happening. The meeting then moved from office to office as the staff tried to get Team Trump out. Finally wound up at the residence, where Trump can invite whomever he wishes. Ended with the infamous Trump tweet calling supporters to Washington on Jan 6.

You could not make this stuff up. Like an episode of The Apprentice!!
 
ltbewr
Topic Author
Posts: 16264
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:25 pm

As I continue to watch these hearings, the more angry I become toward Trump. One bombshell was at the end of today's hearing was a statement of Rep. Cheney that Trump attempted to contact a witness for the Committee likely to intimidate them. This has been referred to the DOJ and I hope it is investigated and if true, Trump goes to jail for this crime. We cannot have Trump or any powerful, rich person threaten any witness to this committee or any court proceeding.
https://apnews.com/article/capitol-sieg ... 02b2b50520
The linked article discusses today's hearing on how it accented on the build up from after the Electoral College meeting to certify the states elections in favor of Biden and Harris. It is very clear despite advice to Trump he had key supporters keep up the lies of the election to his favor and effectively call for a coup on 1/6/21 to attempt to overthrow the election. This also included testimony from one protester, how he was influenced by Trump's message to go to the Capitol on 1/6/21, got into the Capitol building that day, was convicted of illegal entry of the Capitol and the effect in his life from it. A second witness was a former media coordinator for the Oath Keepers, he left the group long before the 1/6/21 terror attack but he gave a lot of info as to the evolution of the group from supporting conflicts with government agencies like those of the Bundy family over grazing land rights. He claims he left after hearing some of the group talking of Holocaust denial. Today's hearing just adds another log to the hopeful political funeral pyre of Trump and his coup supporters.
 
art
Posts: 4980
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:09 pm

ltbewr wrote:
A second witness was a former media coordinator for the Oath Keepers, he left the group long before the 1/6/21 terror attack but he gave a lot of info as to the evolution of the group from supporting conflicts with government agencies like those of the Bundy family over grazing land rights. He claims he left after hearing some of the group talking of Holocaust denial..


Claiming that Nazi Germany did not have a policy of killing Jews and implemented that policy is ludicrous. How many people in US believe that? How did they come believe that,, given all the evidence to the contrary?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 21254
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:20 pm

art wrote:
Claiming that Nazi Germany did not have a policy of killing Jews and implemented that policy is ludicrous.


As ludicrous as it may seem, there are indeed deniers out there (not just in the US) despite all the evidence to the contrary that it actually happened. They probably watched a shitty video on Youtube that "proved" it never happened - just like people believe the Earth is flat and that Trump really won the 2020 election. The gene pool is getting shallower by the day.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:44 pm

art wrote:

Claiming that Nazi Germany did not have a policy of killing Jews and implemented that policy is ludicrous. How many people in US believe that? How did they come believe that,, given all the evidence to the contrary?


Welcome to the bizarro world of conspiracy theorists. A defining characteristic is extreme distrust of authoritative sources. The more authority, the less reliable. Therefore when facts are presented, they can be safely dismissed. In the absence of facts, the conspiracy theory becomes plausible.

Also the conspiracy theory can't be contradicted with facts or evidence, because they are defacto inadmissable, since the sources can't be trusted.

Lastly, the consequence of this is that the conspiracy theory relies on the negative proof. Since it's not accepted that the facts are correct, it must be proven that the theory is incorrect. Which allows the theorist to propose an infinite number of possibilities, each of which must be refuted.

Thus in the case of the Holocaust, the argument becomes that you can't prove it wasn't faked. You can never fully prove the negative assertion.

This is why the scientific method requires a positive proof, you must assert a positive statement and then develop evidence. But that distinction is lost on the conspiracy theorists.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 12141
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:02 pm

scbriml wrote:
- just like people believe the Earth is flat

God I miss the days when that was actually the big deal we had with "deniers"/conspiracy morons.

Tugg
 
victrola
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:36 am

What is depressing is that the bulk of Republicans, including so many here on this website, are conspiracy theorists. It is even worse, that people like this will probably be a majority in Congress next year. Anyone who votes Republican after what we have seen in these hearings, has complete contempt for the democratic process. Democracy will die in the US in 2022 and Republicans are fine with this.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24790
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:07 am

victrola wrote:
What is depressing is that the bulk of Republicans, including so many here on this website, are conspiracy theorists. It is even worse, that people like this will probably be a majority in Congress next year. Anyone who votes Republican after what we have seen in these hearings, has complete contempt for the democratic process. Democracy will die in the US in 2022 and Republicans are fine with this.


Sorry to tell you this, but democracy has died. Democrats are now fighting to keep the republic alive, but it is gone. The Constitution is dead and shredded thanks to MAGAs. They keep blaming "liberals" but they themselves are to blame. MAGAs. Those who want a one person "democracy" or one person "theocracy". They don't care about the Founding Fathers or rule of law or Constitution. As long as they can be in power. Because, as long as they are in power, they can claim victory. Even when they change the rules so they are victors. And it is sick. #lockhimup
 
FLYFIRSTCLASS
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:41 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:12 pm

Just my 2 cents, but I highly doubt Trump will be brought to trail on these hearing. First of all the from what I have seen all those who have testified has been pretty much hearsay, which is inadmissible. Additionally, it would be next to impossible to find an impartial jury to sit on the case. The trial would be the circus of the century likely taking years. Like it or not, nothing will come of these hearings.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15711
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:29 pm

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Just my 2 cents, but I highly doubt Trump will be brought to trail on these hearing. First of all the from what I have seen all those who have testified has been pretty much hearsay, which is inadmissible. Additionally, it would be next to impossible to find an impartial jury to sit on the case. The trial would be the circus of the century likely taking years. Like it or not, nothing will come of these hearings.



If nothing comes of it then the US is a dead stick country. Trump and his band of lying cowards tried to overthrow the US election. They deserver jail time for treason.
 
acavpics
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:44 pm

seb146 wrote:
victrola wrote:
What is depressing is that the bulk of Republicans, including so many here on this website, are conspiracy theorists. It is even worse, that people like this will probably be a majority in Congress next year. Anyone who votes Republican after what we have seen in these hearings, has complete contempt for the democratic process. Democracy will die in the US in 2022 and Republicans are fine with this.


Sorry to tell you this, but democracy has died. Democrats are now fighting to keep the republic alive, but it is gone. The Constitution is dead and shredded thanks to MAGAs. They keep blaming "liberals" but they themselves are to blame. MAGAs. Those who want a one person "democracy" or one person "theocracy". They don't care about the Founding Fathers or rule of law or Constitution. As long as they can be in power. Because, as long as they are in power, they can claim victory. Even when they change the rules so they are victors. And it is sick. #lockhimup


Geez. Sounds like a lot of pessimistic and hopeless thinking from both of you.

Blue tsunami 2022
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:18 pm

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Just my 2 cents, but I highly doubt Trump will be brought to trail on these hearing. First of all the from what I have seen all those who have testified has been pretty much hearsay, which is inadmissible. Additionally, it would be next to impossible to find an impartial jury to sit on the case. The trial would be the circus of the century likely taking years. Like it or not, nothing will come of these hearings.


Hard disagree. That viewpoint is the conservatives whistling past the graveyard, hoping it's true.

First, the purpose of the hearings is to establish a factual record of Trump's intentions prior to Jan 6, and what he hoped to accomplish by summoning and inviting his supporters, which was the overturning of the election and to remain in office. The hearings are doing a magnificent job of creating that factual record, for all Americans, except perhaps those who refuse to listen. That is a huge benefit to the nation, and for posterity.

Second, the evidence developed will be turned over to the DoJ for analysis and review. It will be they who bring any charges forth. Testimony is not hearsay if there are supporting facts and multiple witnesses who concur. These are true for almost all the testimony presented. There are very few disputed accounts.

Third, Trump can have a bench trial if he feels a jury would not be impartial. That should make him happy, as he appointed many of the judges.

Lastly, there are still fools in the US who would support another Trump term. For that reason, I think Trump will be charged, probably for an offense they consider bulletproof, in order to demonstrate that his actions went against our system of government, and the welfare of the nation. If that is not done, there will always be claims of the type you have made here.
 
victrola
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:00 pm

Third, Trump can have a bench trial if he feels a jury would not be impartial. That should make him happy, as he appointed many of the judges.

I think he would go for a jury trial. After all, all he has to do is to get one MAGA fanatic on the jury to avoid conviction. The odds of a Trump conviction are a million to one unfortunately.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:52 pm

victrola wrote:
Third, Trump can have a bench trial if he feels a jury would not be impartial. That should make him happy, as he appointed many of the judges.

I think he would go for a jury trial. After all, all he has to do is to get one MAGA fanatic on the jury to avoid conviction. The odds of a Trump conviction are a million to one unfortunately.


I don't think they will get Trump on conspiracy or sedition, as some are hoping. That requires establishment of foreknowledge and criminal intent. It's entirely possibly he sicked the crowd on the Capital without knowledge that a riot would develop. Although the risk of that was fairly obvious at the time. But still could be chalked up to bad judgement.

I think it may be something more like incitement, since he lied openly to the crowd and knew he was lying. Or obstruction of an official proceeding, since he was actively involved in planning the alternate slates of electors and pushed Pence to accept them.

Those are the areas where he's vulnerable. Also important to note that the hearings are not delving as deeply into the evidence as the DoJ can, as their powers are limited.

Cheney mentioned in the hearing the narrative that Trump was just poorly advised, was following that advice and wasn't responsible for his actions. So if DoJ prosecuted people around Trump, but not Trump himself, that will reinforce the narrative.

Another issue is that Garland would likely have to appoint a special prosecutor, to avoid the appearance of bias or interfering in the 2024 election.

The whole thing is a big mess, from start to finish, with Trump squarely at the center, as he always seems to be.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24790
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:11 am

acavpics wrote:
seb146 wrote:
victrola wrote:
What is depressing is that the bulk of Republicans, including so many here on this website, are conspiracy theorists. It is even worse, that people like this will probably be a majority in Congress next year. Anyone who votes Republican after what we have seen in these hearings, has complete contempt for the democratic process. Democracy will die in the US in 2022 and Republicans are fine with this.


Sorry to tell you this, but democracy has died. Democrats are now fighting to keep the republic alive, but it is gone. The Constitution is dead and shredded thanks to MAGAs. They keep blaming "liberals" but they themselves are to blame. MAGAs. Those who want a one person "democracy" or one person "theocracy". They don't care about the Founding Fathers or rule of law or Constitution. As long as they can be in power. Because, as long as they are in power, they can claim victory. Even when they change the rules so they are victors. And it is sick. #lockhimup


Geez. Sounds like a lot of pessimistic and hopeless thinking from both of you.

Blue tsunami 2022


Look at election laws in MAGA states. Not just taking away voting but, in some states, MAGAs decide who wins.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/09/10626835 ... ection-res
 
sierrakilo44
Posts: 971
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:32 am

seb146 wrote:

Look at election laws in MAGA states. Not just taking away voting but, in some states, MAGAs decide who wins.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/09/10626835 ... ection-res


The upcoming Supreme Court case Moore v Harper will be the most significant in US history. It will (if ruled in favour of the GOP) allow state legislatures to ignore state constitutions and state courts and have carte blanche to take any action they wish in elections. Draw fully gerrymandered districts, purge whoever they want from electoral rolls, restrict voting as much as possible in areas they dislike, throw out groups of ballots they know will be against them and just straight up assign electoral college delegates against a majority of voters.

If this had been in effect two years ago then don’t worry about Jan 6th, all the GOP controlled legislatures in PA, GA, AZ and WI (which are only GOP controlled due gerrymandering) would have needed to do is just declare their presidential votes invalid and assign GOP electors to the electoral college. It’s a legalised coup.
 
victrola
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:38 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Look at election laws in MAGA states. Not just taking away voting but, in some states, MAGAs decide who wins.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/09/10626835 ... ection-res


The upcoming Supreme Court case Moore v Harper will be the most significant in US history. It will (if ruled in favour of the GOP) allow state legislatures to ignore state constitutions and state courts and have carte blanche to take any action they wish in elections. Draw fully gerrymandered districts, purge whoever they want from electoral rolls, restrict voting as much as possible in areas they dislike, throw out groups of ballots they know will be against them and just straight up assign electoral college delegates against a majority of voters.

If this had been in effect two years ago then don’t worry about Jan 6th, all the GOP controlled legislatures in PA, GA, AZ and WI (which are only GOP controlled due gerrymandering) would have needed to do is just declare their presidential votes invalid and assign GOP electors to the electoral college. It’s a legalised coup.


So much for democracy in America. If the right-wing extremist fanatics on the Supreme Court allow this to happen, then I'm all for packing the court. Republicans are at war with democracy in this country and must be stopped.
 
hh65man
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:52 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:46 am

At the end of the day, I wonder if Liz Cheney will come good on her word if Trump isn’t charged. Which is not to let Trump run for, or be the next President. She should consider running as an Independent in the next Presidential election. Would possibly steel crucial votes away from Trump, by doing so maybe prevent him from winning office. Should consider doing the same for Desantis. What a mess…
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:05 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:

The upcoming Supreme Court case Moore v Harper will be the most significant in US history. It will (if ruled in favour of the GOP) allow state legislatures to ignore state constitutions and state courts and have carte blanche to take any action they wish in elections. Draw fully gerrymandered districts, purge whoever they want from electoral rolls, restrict voting as much as possible in areas they dislike, throw out groups of ballots they know will be against them and just straight up assign electoral college delegates against a majority of voters.

If this had been in effect two years ago then don’t worry about Jan 6th, all the GOP controlled legislatures in PA, GA, AZ and WI (which are only GOP controlled due gerrymandering) would have needed to do is just declare their presidential votes invalid and assign GOP electors to the electoral college. It’s a legalised coup.


It's not good, but not quite that bad. Moore considers whether the "manner, time, & place" of elections, as specified in the Constitution to be established by state legislatures, are subject to state judicial review. The Supreme Court has already ruled that partisan redistricting is not subject to federal court review, in Rucho 2019. But not racial redistricting, which is protected under the Voting Rights Act as a federal issue.

Redistricting would fall under the "manner, time, & place" requirement, as would laws involving voter ID and mail-in voting. So it's definitely a major issue.

However federal courts still have the authority to hear cases of Voting Rights Act claims, or those involving voting irregularities. State courts would also have that right under their own Constitutions.

For a legislature to override the popular vote in the selection of electors, would require extraordinary claims that would still be subject to judicial review and Constitutionality.
 
ltbewr
Topic Author
Posts: 16264
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:34 am

The next 1/6 Committee public hearing is scheduled for Thursday, July 21st and will be in the 'primetime' evening hours. Likely this is to be the last scheduled public hearing. A proposed public hearing date of July 14th was withdrawn. It is presumed that this will be the big 'final' hearing tying together the elements of the terror attack on the US Capitol on 1/6/21 to force the DOJ to seek criminal indictments on Trump and others. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congre ... -rcna37943
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 531
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:45 am

FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Just my 2 cents, but I highly doubt Trump will be brought to trail on these hearing. First of all the from what I have seen all those who have testified has been pretty much hearsay, which is inadmissible. Additionally, it would be next to impossible to find an impartial jury to sit on the case. The trial would be the circus of the century likely taking years. Like it or not, nothing will come of these hearings.


Please go and read what hearsay is again. Most of it isn't hearsay at all. It is direct evidence from people who were there at the time in the meetings, on calls. It is direct in person evidence.

The Federal Rules of Evidence defines hearsay as a “statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted.”


Stating what happened when you were in a room isn't hearsay. Stating what you have been told happened in a room (i.e you were not there so told by a third party) potentially is.

90% of witness testimony, including almost all of yesterday's testimony regarding the shouting match and 6hr meeting in the whitehouse is admissable. Some of hutchinson's testimony is hearsay (i.e what she was told happened in the car), a lot of it however was not as she was there recounting what happened directly infront of her.

Trump should be put to trial for witness tampering as the very least / lowest charge.

I don't think for a second he'll serve time (he won't lets be honest but he should), but at the very least strip him from the right to serve in public office again. You cannot do what he has done and yet still somehow have the ability to potentially represent anyone again.
 
luckyone
Posts: 4552
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:59 pm

Reinhardt wrote:
FLYFIRSTCLASS wrote:
Just my 2 cents, but I highly doubt Trump will be brought to trail on these hearing. First of all the from what I have seen all those who have testified has been pretty much hearsay, which is inadmissible. Additionally, it would be next to impossible to find an impartial jury to sit on the case. The trial would be the circus of the century likely taking years. Like it or not, nothing will come of these hearings.


Please go and read what hearsay is again. Most of it isn't hearsay at all. It is direct evidence from people who were there at the time in the meetings, on calls. It is direct in person evidence.

The Federal Rules of Evidence defines hearsay as a “statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted.”


Stating what happened when you were in a room isn't hearsay. Stating what you have been told happened in a room (i.e you were not there so told by a third party) potentially is.

90% of witness testimony, including almost all of yesterday's testimony regarding the shouting match and 6hr meeting in the whitehouse is admissable. Some of hutchinson's testimony is hearsay (i.e what she was told happened in the car), a lot of it however was not as she was there recounting what happened directly infront of her.

Trump should be put to trial for witness tampering as the very least / lowest charge.

I don't think for a second he'll serve time (he won't lets be honest but he should), but at the very least strip him from the right to serve in public office again. You cannot do what he has done and yet still somehow have the ability to potentially represent anyone again.

At times I wonder if he himself would quietly prefer that. He wouldn't serve any time, but he wouldn't have to worry about losing face by losing another election. Yes he would bleat about it and bang the drum, but people like Trump are perfectly happy to do that and take the plus.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15711
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:01 pm

And yet more Conservatives are coming out and blatantly showing that Trump is a liar.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/14/politics ... index.html

The report, "LOST, NOT STOLEN: The Conservative Case that Trump Lost and Biden Won the 2020 Presidential Election," looked at more than 60 court cases Trump and his supporters filed and lost in six key battleground states. It reached the "unequivocal" conclusion that the former Republican president's claims were unsupportable -- which Trump's own Department of Homeland Security as well as election officials nationwide debunked days after the 2020 election.



So more proof that the Jan 6 attacks were motivated by the Trump Administration and Supporters lies.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24790
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:36 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Look at election laws in MAGA states. Not just taking away voting but, in some states, MAGAs decide who wins.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/09/10626835 ... ection-res


The upcoming Supreme Court case Moore v Harper will be the most significant in US history. It will (if ruled in favour of the GOP) allow state legislatures to ignore state constitutions and state courts and have carte blanche to take any action they wish in elections. Draw fully gerrymandered districts, purge whoever they want from electoral rolls, restrict voting as much as possible in areas they dislike, throw out groups of ballots they know will be against them and just straight up assign electoral college delegates against a majority of voters.

If this had been in effect two years ago then don’t worry about Jan 6th, all the GOP controlled legislatures in PA, GA, AZ and WI (which are only GOP controlled due gerrymandering) would have needed to do is just declare their presidential votes invalid and assign GOP electors to the electoral college. It’s a legalised coup.


Spoiler alert:

Supreme Court is already controlled by far right wing radicals, so, yes, GOP wins so we will become a "democracy" like Hungary or Turkey or Russia or Chile in the 1970s or Argentina in the 1960s or Cuba because democracy...
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24790
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:38 pm

This domestic terror event was being broadcast live around the world and the one man who swore an oath live in front of the whole world to uphold and defend the Constitution did nothing. That says a lot but it says even more that elected officials support him and supported the attempted coup by also doing nothing.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15711
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:02 pm

Look at what happened in Arizona. An American Citizen testified in front of the January 6 committee.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/politics ... index.html
Bowers, a lifelong Republican and the speaker of the Arizona state House, detailed in blunt terms the pressure campaign led by Donald Trump to get him to say that the 2020 election in the state was fraudulent. He said that Trump had lied about him in a November 2020 press release, which claimed that Bowers told the then-President that he believed the election was rigged. And Bowers spoke eloquently about why he refused to cave on his belief that that Joe Biden had won the presidential race.


His reward from the Arizona GOP.

On Tuesday, the Arizona Republican Party executive committee formally censured Bowers. "He is no longer a Republican in good standing & we call on Republicans to replace him at the ballot box in the August primary," tweeted state party chairwoman Kelli Ward.



How does the GOP even qualify as an American institution in Arizona anymore? Should they get their tax exempt status revoked for abusing their members?
 
victrola
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:13 pm

casinterest wrote:
Look at what happened in Arizona. An American Citizen testified in front of the January 6 committee.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/politics ... index.html
Bowers, a lifelong Republican and the speaker of the Arizona state House, detailed in blunt terms the pressure campaign led by Donald Trump to get him to say that the 2020 election in the state was fraudulent. He said that Trump had lied about him in a November 2020 press release, which claimed that Bowers told the then-President that he believed the election was rigged. And Bowers spoke eloquently about why he refused to cave on his belief that that Joe Biden had won the presidential race.


His reward from the Arizona GOP.

On Tuesday, the Arizona Republican Party executive committee formally censured Bowers. "He is no longer a Republican in good standing & we call on Republicans to replace him at the ballot box in the August primary," tweeted state party chairwoman Kelli Ward.



How does the GOP even qualify as an American institution in Arizona anymore? Should they get their tax exempt status revoked for abusing their members?


And the Republican purges of the party continue. If you fail to slavishly tow the Trumpist line you are evil and must be purged. Make no mistake, the Republican party plan is to destroy democracy in this country.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15711
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:49 pm

victrola wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Look at what happened in Arizona. An American Citizen testified in front of the January 6 committee.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/politics ... index.html
Bowers, a lifelong Republican and the speaker of the Arizona state House, detailed in blunt terms the pressure campaign led by Donald Trump to get him to say that the 2020 election in the state was fraudulent. He said that Trump had lied about him in a November 2020 press release, which claimed that Bowers told the then-President that he believed the election was rigged. And Bowers spoke eloquently about why he refused to cave on his belief that that Joe Biden had won the presidential race.


His reward from the Arizona GOP.

On Tuesday, the Arizona Republican Party executive committee formally censured Bowers. "He is no longer a Republican in good standing & we call on Republicans to replace him at the ballot box in the August primary," tweeted state party chairwoman Kelli Ward.



How does the GOP even qualify as an American institution in Arizona anymore? Should they get their tax exempt status revoked for abusing their members?


And the Republican purges of the party continue. If you fail to slavishly tow the Trumpist line you are evil and must be purged. Make no mistake, the Republican party plan is to destroy democracy in this country.



The sad part is that the folks that are censured. Still think they can be Republicans,.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 18159
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:57 pm

casinterest wrote:
Look at what happened in Arizona. An American Citizen testified in front of the January 6 committee.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/politics ... index.html
Bowers, a lifelong Republican and the speaker of the Arizona state House, detailed in blunt terms the pressure campaign led by Donald Trump to get him to say that the 2020 election in the state was fraudulent. He said that Trump had lied about him in a November 2020 press release, which claimed that Bowers told the then-President that he believed the election was rigged. And Bowers spoke eloquently about why he refused to cave on his belief that that Joe Biden had won the presidential race.


His reward from the Arizona GOP.

On Tuesday, the Arizona Republican Party executive committee formally censured Bowers. "He is no longer a Republican in good standing & we call on Republicans to replace him at the ballot box in the August primary," tweeted state party chairwoman Kelli Ward.



How does the GOP even qualify as an American institution in Arizona anymore? Should they get their tax exempt status revoked for abusing their members?


It is truly impressive that in a purple state the state GOP thinks going full wingnut is the proper direction.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:08 pm

The hallmark of the small-minded is intolerance of any other view but their own. In my experience, the intolerance increases with the truthfulness of the objector.

What should happen in Arizona is an appeal to fact and truth, which is readily available and completely supports Bower.

I once got up in a public board meeting and spoke the truth about a serious injustice. The facts were so self-evident, I was entirely confident in doing so. They immediately adjourned without comment to closed session, while I waited. Upon returning to open-session, they immediately adjourned and ran out of the room. I was dumbfounded, but they were not going to acknowledge the issue at all, or me.

I still see those people occasionally, and always ask them why they did that. No one will answer. It's just about suppressing the voice they don't want to hear. They knew I was truthful and thus could not object or answer the facts I gave. But it didn't matter.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15711
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Look at what happened in Arizona. An American Citizen testified in front of the January 6 committee.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/20/politics ... index.html
Bowers, a lifelong Republican and the speaker of the Arizona state House, detailed in blunt terms the pressure campaign led by Donald Trump to get him to say that the 2020 election in the state was fraudulent. He said that Trump had lied about him in a November 2020 press release, which claimed that Bowers told the then-President that he believed the election was rigged. And Bowers spoke eloquently about why he refused to cave on his belief that that Joe Biden had won the presidential race.


His reward from the Arizona GOP.

On Tuesday, the Arizona Republican Party executive committee formally censured Bowers. "He is no longer a Republican in good standing & we call on Republicans to replace him at the ballot box in the August primary," tweeted state party chairwoman Kelli Ward.



How does the GOP even qualify as an American institution in Arizona anymore? Should they get their tax exempt status revoked for abusing their members?


It is truly impressive that in a purple state the state GOP thinks going full wingnut is the proper direction.


Well. they are only trying to run against a Democrat that is a US Navy Vet, has been to space, and actually puts real effort into everything he does. . For some reason a lot of Republicans actually support him :)
:)

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/po ... 063993002/
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15711
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:21 pm

Now the secret service is in trouble.
They can only produce 1 text message from Jan 6.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/21/politics ... index.html

Destruction of records strikes at a most interesting time, and apparently this was after they were explicitly told to keep the messages for investigation.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 7:56 pm

casinterest wrote:
Now the secret service is in trouble.
They can only produce 1 text message from Jan 6.

Destruction of records strikes at a most interesting time, and apparently this was after they were explicitly told to keep the messages for investigation.


In fairness, a review of their records found 1 message they had not already turned over. It was from the Capitol police chief asking for help.

The Secret Service claims they have no more information to turn over. The migration was done on the honor system, it was left to the discretion of agents to preserve official records, but they were allowed to delete personal data.

Thus the Secret Service cannot say what data was deleted, only that some was. Nor can they say whether the deleted data may have contained Jan 6 info, since there is no record of it.

This is a broader problem with personal devices being shared for work. Similar to the Clinton e-mail scandal, in that State Department employees are permitted to delete personal messages from their work accounts. That wasn't illegal, nor was this event, but it raises questions later if the people are involved in a major investigation that wants to see all records.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 15711
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:28 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Now the secret service is in trouble.
They can only produce 1 text message from Jan 6.

Destruction of records strikes at a most interesting time, and apparently this was after they were explicitly told to keep the messages for investigation.


In fairness, a review of their records found 1 message they had not already turned over. It was from the Capitol police chief asking for help.

The Secret Service claims they have no more information to turn over. The migration was done on the honor system, it was left to the discretion of agents to preserve official records, but they were allowed to delete personal data.

Thus the Secret Service cannot say what data was deleted, only that some was. Nor can they say whether the deleted data may have contained Jan 6 info, since there is no record of it.

This is a broader problem with personal devices being shared for work. Similar to the Clinton e-mail scandal, in that State Department employees are permitted to delete personal messages from their work accounts. That wasn't illegal, nor was this event, but it raises questions later if the people are involved in a major investigation that wants to see all records.



It's not a good look for a government agency.
I have rules at work about what i can and cannot delete.
 
ltbewr
Topic Author
Posts: 16264
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:12 pm

The loss of texts and other records of communications of Secret Service agents assigned in DC on 1/6/21 and adjacent dates is very disturbing. There are 3 main reasons why it happened.
One is just stupid human carelessness, but there should be backup of all of the records.
Two, they are covering up what would show gross incompetency about allowing the President to appear in front of a very insecure public area or intentional malfeasance by agents as supported Trump's coup.
Third, is a blanket prohibition and releasing only a tiny part due to Security Sensitive Information rules, that disclosure could show very sensitive security procedures used to protect the President.

Only a few hours to go to see what will apparently be a minute by minute timeline of the actions or inaction of Trump and others taken that day that led to the terror attack on the Capitol and delaying a response needed by the President to control it. It will contain excerpts of testimony of those close to Trump that day on what they saw take place or not.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/21/politics ... index.html
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:03 pm

casinterest wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
casinterest wrote:

It's not a good look for a government agency.
I have rules at work about what i can and cannot delete.


Agreed that the optics are terrible. I don't think the Secret Service is lying in their explanation of what happened. But when the subpoenas were issued on Jan 16th, all records should have been captured and frozen at that time, even if it meant halting or delaying the migration.

Also the agent discretion policy should have been suspended for materials under subpoena. Might be ok in other circumstances, but not during an investigation.

In the end, it can't be shown one way or the other that Jan 6 materials were lost, and that ambiguity is the fault of the Secret Service.
 
Vintage
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:03 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
I don't think the Secret Service is lying in their explanation of what happened.

And you also believe that Rose Mary Woods' knee accidentally hit the erase button and created the 18 minute gap in Nixon's Watergate tape?
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:06 pm

Vintage wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
I don't think the Secret Service is lying in their explanation of what happened.

And you also believe that Rose Mary Woods' knee accidentally hit the erase button and created the 18 minute gap in Nixon's Watergate tape?


Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
 
Vintage
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:13 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
I don't think the Secret Service is lying in their explanation of what happened.

And you also believe that Rose Mary Woods' knee accidentally hit the erase button and created the 18 minute gap in Nixon's Watergate tape?


Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

That's a foolish argument. Later analysis showed that the 18 minute gap was created by at least five separate erasures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Mary_Woods
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 18159
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:24 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
Vintage wrote:
Avatar2go wrote:
I don't think the Secret Service is lying in their explanation of what happened.

And you also believe that Rose Mary Woods' knee accidentally hit the erase button and created the 18 minute gap in Nixon's Watergate tape?


Hanlon's Razor:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."


What if stupidity serves a master acting with malice (or vice versa)??
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:26 pm

Vintage wrote:
That's a foolish argument. Later analysis showed that the 18 minute gap was created by at least five separate erasures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Mary_Woods


I was referring to the Secret Service, not Watergate. You brought that up, I didn't. I don't see them as similar situations at all.

More information is coming out now about the migration. Employees were warned in December that their phones would be factory reset, and were asked to upload any official records before that happened. Then in early January, they were informed of the migration date and reminded to upload their data.

Jan 6 ocurred about that same time, and subpoenas issued on Jan 16th. The phone resets continued on schedule in late January. It was an OTA reset, agents had no control and did not delete anything from their phones. So any missing data, is a failure to upload before the reset event. But since this was the agent's responsibility, there is no record of the state of the phones before the reset. Hence it's certain that phone data was lost in the reset, but unknown whether that included Jan 6 data.

Having worked much of my career with IT, I can easily see this happening. I've actually seen far worse. I've argued many times with superiors who didn't see the need for redundant backups. So I can see how the subpoenas, which the IT guys may not have been aware of, would not have triggered the urgency needed to preserve the phone states before reset.

This is still negligence on someone's part, and the Secret Service is still responsible. There may be a crime in terms of not following federal record retention laws. But I doubt very much this elaborate sequence, begun well before Jan 6, was a result of malicious intent.

Many of us here criticize conservatives for conspiracy theories. So have to be careful not to follow down that path. There is an investigation and if it turns up intent, I'll believe it. But won't jump to that conclusion without evidence.
 
Vintage
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:55 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
I don't see them as similar situations at all.

They are identical situations, it takes magical thinking to not see through the lies.
I see the F-15EX discussion we recently had as another identical situation.

The bureaucrats lie and gullible people automatically jump to their defense and throw up out of context argument after out of context argument to support what is obvious corruption. Always with clever cliches thrown in.

BTW, I also worked in IT.

I know about backups and backups of backups and off site backups etc etc etc.
 
User avatar
piedmontf284000
Posts: 585
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:00 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:07 am

Hey look, another primetime special on a Thursday night, did not see that coming. "we're going to keep shoving this down your throats until you watch". Wait better yet, let's drag these hearings on for months, instead of having the hearings in a single week, and squeeze as much drama out of them as possible. In fact, Lets keep this up until November 8th and then we'll call it a day, unless of course ole Donnie runs again, then we'll ramp it up in 2024 again.

This is the biggest political theatre in the history of the US. The fact that January 6th, 2021 is being compared to September 11, 2001 and December 7, 1941 is not only ridiculous, it is disparaging to those who were innocent victims in NYC, Pennsylvania, DC, and Honolulu. Thousands died on those days in 2001 and 1941. No one was killed in the Capitol on January 6th, unless of course you count the unarmed woman who was shot by law enforcement. Any other Law enforcement officer in 2021 would be charged with at the very least involuntary manslaughter and would be possibly going to jail. This guy gets the highest award offered by the United States Congress. Disgusting.

January 6, 2021 was criminal trespass by and large by 95 percent of those who entered the Capitol, yet many of them are going to prison for years for walking the halls of he US Capitol, nothing more. Total injustice, when you consider the hundreds whose cases were all dropped for inciting violence and destruction in the summer of 2020, but that's okay because those people had a right to be angry and do what they did, according to many in Congress, on TV, and on this board. Is January 6th a stain on the United States? 100 percent. Were those in attendance mostly right wing nuts who wear tin foil hats? Yes and yes. It still does not justify the sentences they are receiving and the political charade of these 1/6 hearings. Inn fact, is only deepening the divide of this country. Before you lose your mind on me, I hate Donald Trump. I voted for Joe Biden (big mistake) and I will literally cry if those two idiots are on the ballot in 2024. What I have seen the last month though by this so called committee is the worst of politics and does nothing to learn from the what happened on January 6, 2021. Shameful.
 
Vintage
Posts: 637
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:48 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:48 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
many of them are going to prison for years for walking the halls


If you're looking for that overriding reason they are going to prison, it's not for "walking the halls"; it's for trying to overthrow our government in a violent manner.

It is no surprise that the very people who most need to be watching these hearings are tuning them out. Keep in mind that these hearings will be watched by students in civics classes for the next hundred years: if the nation survives intact from the current populist attack from our own citizens.
 
Avatar2go
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:09 am

Adam Kinzinger is my hero. So proud that he is from Illinois. Every person on here, should listen to his closing remarks at the Jan 6 hearings tonight. Wow. I was up and on my feet as he spoke, without realizing it.

I'm sure it'll be posted soon. If all US citizens truly understand what he said, it would end most of the division that exists today. He got it exactly right. And he is a conservative Republican, so as he said, it's not about politics, it's about truth and integrity.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Badstig, GDB, MohawkWeekend, speedygonzales, Vintage and 23 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos