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casinterest
Posts: 15661
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:29 pm

The Jan 6 commission laid out very clearly that Trump lied, Trump sought to profit from his lies, Trump used coercion and abuse of power on officials in many states in order to attempt to change the will of the United States Citizens. And then on Jan 6, Trump stood by and cheered as he pushed his supporters to disrupt and stop a vote necessary for the peaceful transfer of power. Mike Pence's own security detail was saying goodbyes to their family as Trump stood by for 187 minutes doing nothing to stop what was going on at the Capitol.

https://www.newsweek.com/jan-6-trump-ne ... on-1727045

Mike Pence's Secret Service Agents Feared For Their Lives
One of Thursday's witnesses, whose recorded testimony was played anonymously, described how members of Vice President Mike Pence's Secret Service detail began to fear for their lives during the attack.

The witness, a White House security official who had access to agents' radio communications that day, said Pence's security detail were saying goodbye to family members on their radios as the violence unfolded.

"The members of the VP detail at this time were starting to fear for their own lives. There was a lot of yelling, a lot of very personal calls over the radio, so it was disturbing," the official said.


Trump himself was against the certification of a vote that his own advisors told him was not fraudulent.

"At 2:24 p.m. Trump tweeted that Pence "didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution" and rejected the "fraudulent or inaccurate" Electoral College votes.

Pottinger told the panel that he was "disturbed and worried" to see Trump attacking Pence for carrying out his constitutional duty, which he said was "the opposite of what we needed at that moment."

"



Trump still doubled down on his lies on Jan 7.

During the outtakes clip, Trump stops reading and states that he does not want to say "the election is now over," despite it being two months since Joe Biden was rightfully declared the winner.

Trump said: "But this election is now over. Congress has certified the results… I don't want to say the election is over. I just want to say Congress has certified the results without saying the election is over, OK?"



Some video outtakes of the hearing.

Hawley and other members of congress and staff fleeing for their lives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PHOIn1Dwqk

Trump continuing to deny the election was over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1F7F8YfV58


The January 6 commission has done a good job of preserving the truth of that day as Trump and his supporters have sought to obfuscate and bury what happened that day.



It will be interesting to see what else we learn as we go into the fall.
 
luckyone
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:44 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
This is the biggest political theatre in the history of the US. The fact that January 6th, 2021 is being compared to September 11, 2001 and December 7, 1941 is not only ridiculous, it is disparaging to those who were innocent victims in NYC, Pennsylvania, DC, and Honolulu. Thousands died on those days in 2001 and 1941. No one was killed in the Capitol on January 6th, unless of course you count the unarmed woman who was shot by law enforcement. Any other Law enforcement officer in 2021 would be charged with at the very least involuntary manslaughter and would be possibly going to jail. This guy gets the highest award offered by the United States Congress. Disgusting.

I disagree, and I think it's worse than 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. Terrible as they were, those were attacks from the outside. This was an attack from within, that disrupted our 200+ year process of peaceful transitions of power. Even if it was just for a few hours. Even if it was done by a rag tag bunch of losers -- and some of them had very malicious intent, and it must been shown that such acts will not be tolerated. The reality is that, though not directly, Trump (and more than a few members of Congress...) egged these people on with his irresponsible and reckless crusade during November and December 2020. His actions and his words were unhinged and out of step with the tangible and intangible responsibilities that come with being a leader. I don't think that can be underestimated and the fact that even after everything that happened, he was and still is either uncaring or blind to his role in the events. We as a country deserve to know that, whether we like it or not.
 
emperortk
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 pm

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:36 pm

luckyone wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
This is the biggest political theatre in the history of the US. The fact that January 6th, 2021 is being compared to September 11, 2001 and December 7, 1941 is not only ridiculous, it is disparaging to those who were innocent victims in NYC, Pennsylvania, DC, and Honolulu. Thousands died on those days in 2001 and 1941. No one was killed in the Capitol on January 6th, unless of course you count the unarmed woman who was shot by law enforcement. Any other Law enforcement officer in 2021 would be charged with at the very least involuntary manslaughter and would be possibly going to jail. This guy gets the highest award offered by the United States Congress. Disgusting.

I disagree, and I think it's worse than 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. Terrible as they were, those were attacks from the outside. This was an attack from within, that disrupted our 200+ year process of peaceful transitions of power. Even if it was just for a few hours.


The other thing that makes it worse than 9/11 or Pearl Harbor is the seemingly endless number of Americans who want to pretend that it was no big deal or that it was just a protest that got out of hand rather than a concerted effort to subvert a free and fair election to satisfy the narcissism of a mendacious man-child. It's revealed that there are many millions of Americans willing to throw away democracy if it means their party is in charge, and this revelation is truly frightening.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:37 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
No one was killed in the Capitol on January 6th, unless of course you count the unarmed woman who was shot by law enforcement.


An officer died the following day, and his death was related to the assault he suffered on Jan 6.

Brian Sicknick, a United States Capitol Police (USCP) officer, died on January 7, 2021, after having two strokes the day after he responded to an attack on the U.S. Capitol.[1] The District of Columbia chief medical examiner found that Sicknick had died from stroke, classifying his death as natural[a] and additionally commented that "all that transpired played a role in his condition.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Brian_Sicknick

On March 14, Julian Elie Khater, 32, of State College, Pennsylvania, and George Pierre Tanios, 39, of Morgantown, West Virginia, were arrested for assaulting Officer Sicknick.

Khater and Tanios are each charged with one count of conspiracy to injure an officer; three counts of assault on a federal officer with a dangerous weapon; one count of civil disorder; one count of obstructing or impeding an official proceeding; one count of physical violence on restricted grounds, while carrying dangerous weapon and resulting in significant bodily injury; and one count of violent entry and disorderly conduct, act of physical violence on Capitol grounds.


https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press ... ral-causes

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Any other Law enforcement officer in 2021 would be charged with at the very least involuntary manslaughter and would be possibly going to jail. This guy gets the highest award offered by the United States Congress. Disgusting.


Here are the true circumstances surrounding the death of Ashli Babbitt:

The investigation further determined that Ms. Babbitt was among a mob of people that entered the Capitol building and gained access to a hallway outside “Speaker’s Lobby,” which leads to the Chamber of the U.S. House of Representatives. At the time, the USCP was evacuating Members from the Chamber, which the mob was trying to enter from multiple doorways. USCP officers used furniture to barricade a set of glass doors separating the hallway and Speaker’s Lobby to try and stop the mob from entering the Speaker’s Lobby and the Chamber, and three officers positioned themselves between the doors and the mob. Members of the mob attempted to break through the doors by striking them and breaking the glass with their hands, flagpoles, helmets, and other objects. Eventually, the three USCP officers positioned outside the doors were forced to evacuate. As members of the mob continued to strike the glass doors, Ms. Babbitt attempted to climb through one of the doors where glass was broken out. An officer inside the Speaker’s Lobby fired one round from his service pistol, striking Ms. Babbitt in the left shoulder, causing her to fall back from the doorway and onto the floor.


https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/depa ... li-babbitt

Please note that no award was given to Officer Byrd for the shooting of Ashli Babbitt. He was cleared of wrongdoing, as per the above links.

piedmontf284000 wrote:
January 6, 2021 was criminal trespass by and large by 95 percent of those who entered the Capitol, yet many of them are going to prison for years for walking the halls of he US Capitol, nothing more. Total injustice, when you consider the hundreds whose cases were all dropped for inciting violence and destruction in the summer of 2020, but that's okay because those people had a right to be angry and do what they did, according to many in Congress, on TV, and on this board. ... It still does not justify the sentences they are receiving and the political charade of these 1/6 hearings.


Here is the breakout of sentences given to the Jan 6 rioters, as of May 2022. The majority did not receive prison sentences. Those that did, were for serious crimes such as assault.

Restitution: 159
Probation or supervised release: 131
Community service: 85
Imprisonment: 63
Home confinement: 55
Fine: 52

https://www.axios.com/local/washington- ... ced-prison
 
Avatar2go
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:41 am

Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:56 pm

Here is the link to Adam Kinzinger's closing remarks from the Jan 6 hearing yesterday. It wasn't immediately available in my earlier post. My apologies.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Vzg4D1kQU

"Oaths Matter. Character Matters. Truth Matters."
 
M564038
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:01 pm

All of those were attempt to overthrow the US government, the constitution and the democracy.
Of those, January 6th came the closest.
The actual number of deaths are nothing compared to the number had any of those attempts been succesfull. January 6th came the closest. The USA very nearly died that day.

If you don’t believe that, you need to study how coups happen. Having everyone involved honoring the peaceful transistion of power might seem symbolic, but it is intensely vital to the legitimacy and stability of a democracy.


piedmontf284000 wrote:
Hey look, another primetime special on a Thursday night, did not see that coming. "we're going to keep shoving this down your throats until you watch". Wait better yet, let's drag these hearings on for months, instead of having the hearings in a single week, and squeeze as much drama out of them as possible. In fact, Lets keep this up until November 8th and then we'll call it a day, unless of course ole Donnie runs again, then we'll ramp it up in 2024 again.

This is the biggest political theatre in the history of the US. The fact that January 6th, 2021 is being compared to September 11, 2001 and December 7, 1941 is not only ridiculous, it is disparaging to those who were innocent victims in NYC, Pennsylvania, DC, and Honolulu. Thousands died on those days in 2001 and 1941. No one was killed in the Capitol on January 6th, unless of course you count the unarmed woman who was shot by law enforcement. Any other Law enforcement officer in 2021 would be charged with at the very least involuntary manslaughter and would be possibly going to jail. This guy gets the highest award offered by the United States Congress. Disgusting.

January 6, 2021 was criminal trespass by and large by 95 percent of those who entered the Capitol, yet many of them are going to prison for years for walking the halls of he US Capitol, nothing more. Total injustice, when you consider the hundreds whose cases were all dropped for inciting violence and destruction in the summer of 2020, but that's okay because those people had a right to be angry and do what they did, according to many in Congress, on TV, and on this board. Is January 6th a stain on the United States? 100 percent. Were those in attendance mostly right wing nuts who wear tin foil hats? Yes and yes. It still does not justify the sentences they are receiving and the political charade of these 1/6 hearings. Inn fact, is only deepening the divide of this country. Before you lose your mind on me, I hate Donald Trump. I voted for Joe Biden (big mistake) and I will literally cry if those two idiots are on the ballot in 2024. What I have seen the last month though by this so called committee is the worst of politics and does nothing to learn from the what happened on January 6, 2021. Shameful.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:24 pm

casinterest wrote:

Some video outtakes of the hearing.

Hawley and other members of congress and staff fleeing for their lives.

The January 6 commission has done a good job of preserving the truth of that day as Trump and his supporters have sought to obfuscate and bury what happened that day.


The imagery of Hawley giving the upraised fist and supporting the crowd outside, then fleeing like a rabbit as the Capitol was attacked, was priceless.

It's been great that the hearings have emphasized the contrast between what the Republican leadership (especially McCarthy) said & did prior to Jan 6, then during and immediately after Jan 6, and what they are saying & doing now. I don't know how they could be viewed with any integrity, after such extreme flips and flops. It seems like a parody of politicians, except it's reality, it really happened, these people exist and hold public office.
 
victrola
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:49 pm

January 6, 2021 was criminal trespass by and large by 95 percent of those who entered the Capitol, yet many of them are going to prison for years for walking the halls of he US Capitol, nothing more. Total injustice, when you consider the hundreds whose cases were all dropped for inciting violence and destruction in the summer of 2020, but that's okay because those people had a right to be angry and do what they did, according to many in Congress, on TV, and on this board. Is January 6th a stain on the United States? 100 percent. Were those in attendance mostly right wing nuts who wear tin foil hats? Yes and yes. It still does not justify the sentences they are receiving and the political charade of these 1/6 hearings. Inn fact, is only deepening the divide of this country. Before you lose your mind on me, I hate Donald Trump. I voted for Joe Biden (big mistake) and I will literally cry if those two idiots are on the ballot in 2024. What I have seen the last month though by this so called committee is the worst of politics and does nothing to learn from the what happened on January 6, 2021. Shameful.
[/quote]

You obviously have not been watching the same hearings as the rest of us. You complain about "theatre" However you don't seem to be at all disturbed about how President Trump and his henchmen attempted to overthrow the results of a free and fair election. Does this bother you at all? Any objective viewer, given the facts and evidence presented in these hearings would come to the conclusion that Donald Trump and the clowns surrounding him tried to subvert the democratic process. I guess you don't see anything wrong with his actions not only on January 6, but prior to the insurrection as well. You also have a very naive and simplistic view of the world if you think that the difficult situation we are in is all Joe Biden's fault. Whatever you can say about him, at least he is not a threat to democracy in this country. If Biden is considered a failure, he will lose the election in 2024 and peacefully vacate the White House. Given the current attitude of the current Republicans leaders, we can seriously doubt they would vacate the White House if they lose in 2028.
 
pune
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:17 pm

luckyone wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
This is the biggest political theatre in the history of the US. The fact that January 6th, 2021 is being compared to September 11, 2001 and December 7, 1941 is not only ridiculous, it is disparaging to those who were innocent victims in NYC, Pennsylvania, DC, and Honolulu. Thousands died on those days in 2001 and 1941. No one was killed in the Capitol on January 6th, unless of course you count the unarmed woman who was shot by law enforcement. Any other Law enforcement officer in 2021 would be charged with at the very least involuntary manslaughter and would be possibly going to jail. This guy gets the highest award offered by the United States Congress. Disgusting.

I disagree, and I think it's worse than 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. Terrible as they were, those were attacks from the outside. This was an attack from within, that disrupted our 200+ year process of peaceful transitions of power. Even if it was just for a few hours. Even if it was done by a rag tag bunch of losers -- and some of them had very malicious intent, and it must been shown that such acts will not be tolerated. The reality is that, though not directly, Trump (and more than a few members of Congress...) egged these people on with his irresponsible and reckless crusade during November and December 2020. His actions and his words were unhinged and out of step with the tangible and intangible responsibilities that come with being a leader. I don't think that can be underestimated and the fact that even after everything that happened, he was and still is either uncaring or blind to his role in the events. We as a country deserve to know that, whether we like it or not.


As an outsider, the above feels bang on. I don't see the Republicans coming to any other conclusion unless they are blind or corrupt or both. And if the above doesn't have consequences for Trump and anybody else, its enemies will be happy, only the U.S. can save the U.S. if you know what I mean.
 
luckyone
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:25 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Some video outtakes of the hearing.

Hawley and other members of congress and staff fleeing for their lives.

The January 6 commission has done a good job of preserving the truth of that day as Trump and his supporters have sought to obfuscate and bury what happened that day.


The imagery of Hawley giving the upraised fist and supporting the crowd outside, then fleeing like a rabbit as the Capitol was attacked, was priceless.

It's been great that the hearings have emphasized the contrast between what the Republican leadership (especially McCarthy) said & did prior to Jan 6, then during and immediately after Jan 6, and what they are saying & doing now. I don't know how they could be viewed with any integrity, after such extreme flips and flops. It seems like a parody of politicians, except it's reality, it really happened, these people exist and hold public office.

Yeah Josh Hawley is just a younger sociopath than Ted Cruz. People that are really easy and enjoyable to hate because they’re just unabashed douchebags.
 
ltbewr
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:27 pm

About an hour into the 7/21 presentation, I had to mute the sound and turn away from watching for a few minutes it as it was making me very physically and emotionally upset.

The presentation was a record of obscene criminality by Trump in total violation of his oath of office. Trump's behaviors at the infamous rally were bad enough but it turned worse. He wanted to personally go to the Capitol with his terror mob, and fortunately the Secret Service prevented that. Trump's actions, lack of actions to stop the terror attack. Talking only to his co-conspirators like Rudy G. His watching live like a porn film on Fox News and likely getting an almost sexual arousal from the terror attack for 'him' on the Capitol. The inability of staff and even 2 of his children around him to make him stop the mob terror acts on the Capitol. Finally there was his extremely reluctant and twisted calling his mob to 'go home' sometime after 4 PM. Then there his behaviors into the next day where he found it impossible to accept any responsibility for the mob terror attack and was literally choking on trying to say what he needed to said.

How Trump behaved before, during and after Jan 6, 2021 just cries out for massive criminal charges soon. If the DOJ doesn't act soon on Trump personally, then I think the public must put pressure on the DOJ, President Biden, top Republicans, and even mass protests on Trump wherever he is is to let him know he cannot get away with his obscene crimes against our country.

The J6 Committee will continue its work, examining recently obtained information, with a return of public hearings in September. My fear is that their reports will be too little too late, especially if as expected due to economic and social reasons, the Republican taking control of at least the House and possibly the Senate. It is expected that if Republicans take control of one or both parts of Congress, they will prevent any further prosecution of Trump and his close co-conspirators and very likely turn to going after Pres. Biden, VP Harris, Hunter Biden, Dr. Fauci, cabinet members for a variety of wrong reasons.
 
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casinterest
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:24 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Some video outtakes of the hearing.

Hawley and other members of congress and staff fleeing for their lives.

The January 6 commission has done a good job of preserving the truth of that day as Trump and his supporters have sought to obfuscate and bury what happened that day.


The imagery of Hawley giving the upraised fist and supporting the crowd outside, then fleeing like a rabbit as the Capitol was attacked, was priceless.

It's been great that the hearings have emphasized the contrast between what the Republican leadership (especially McCarthy) said & did prior to Jan 6, then during and immediately after Jan 6, and what they are saying & doing now. I don't know how they could be viewed with any integrity, after such extreme flips and flops. It seems like a parody of politicians, except it's reality, it really happened, these people exist and hold public office.



There need to be reminders in every district of what each representative did on January 6 in regard to their votes and actions.
There are far too many people that do not respect America anymore that are sitting in those chambers.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:34 pm

It's likely that Trump will complicate the DoJ decision by announcing a campaign for 2024. They would then have to weigh whether their actions are interfering in an election.

It's the same complication that arose for FBI director Comey in 2016 with the Clinton e-mail scandal. Comey decided to announce and proceed with an investigation during the campaign. The uproar over that will be a factor in the timing of the DoJ decision.
 
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casinterest
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:04 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
It's likely that Trump will complicate the DoJ decision by announcing a campaign for 2024. They would then have to weigh whether their actions are interfering in an election.

It's the same complication that arose for FBI director Comey in 2016 with the Clinton e-mail scandal. Comey decided to announce and proceed with an investigation during the campaign. The uproar over that will be a factor in the timing of the DoJ decision.



On the plus side, Trump announcing the run would create complications for his current Grift , and could reopen himself to litigation for campaign finance violations.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:13 pm

casinterest wrote:

There need to be reminders in every district of what each representative did on January 6 in regard to their votes and actions.
There are far too many people that do not respect America anymore that are sitting in those chambers.


Here is a list of the 147 Republican members of Congress who objected to the certification, after the Jan 6 attack on the Capitol. A total of 8 senators and 138 representatives (1 member's term expired before the certification vote, but he is on record as supporting the objection).

After the attack, 6 senators and 2 representatives changed their positions to supporting certification. So the total going into Jan 6, was 155 objecting.

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/6/22218058/r ... on-results
 
victrola
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:58 pm

Josh Hawley does a Benny Hill routine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-o_CFbydjI
 
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casinterest
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:40 pm

On a good note for the slow US justice system.

Bannon just got convicted for Contempt of Congress.

His defense put up none, and the Jury of his peers found him guilty.


https://apnews.com/article/capitol-sieg ... 8c34a62916
A federal jury on Friday convicted Steve Bannon of two counts of contempt of Congress for defying a subpoena from the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol.



maybe Navarro will be next.
 
bennett123
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:48 pm

Hypothetical question.

If a President and several hundred Advisers/associates gathered in the White House and plotted a coup, would this plotting be covered by Executive Privilege.

If the plotters were identified, could the President pardon them and himself.

What sanction would they face up to the point that the coup was actually put into effect.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:50 am

bennett123 wrote:
Hypothetical question.

If a President and several hundred Advisers/associates gathered in the White House and plotted a coup, would this plotting be covered by Executive Privilege.

If the plotters were identified, could the President pardon them and himself.

What sanction would they face up to the point that the coup was actually put into effect.


If the President carried out a traditional coup in the US, the rules would likely go out the window. The government would be suspended.

In this case, Trump took a huge gamble that if he overturned the electoral college on the basis of election fraud, his fraud claims would later be substantiated and he would be vindicated in acting to preserve the union. That's how he saw it in his mind. Even to the extent of disbelieving his advisors.

We know now those claims could not be substantiated, not that they were ever reasonable or credible. So eventually his actions would have been deemed illegal. At that point the legality of his actions could potentially invoke the crime-fraud exemption to privilege.

The crime-fraud exception applies if the client was in the process of committing or intended to commit a crime or fraudulent act, and
the client communicated with the lawyer with intent to further the crime or fraud, or to cover it up.


The President's ability to pardon himself or his close advisors, in a crime in which he himself participated, would need to be tested in the courts. Opinions also vary as to the legitimate scope of pardons. He could in theory limit the scope to any crimes committed in the overturning event and actions, as Ford did for Nixon.

It would be a mess, and sure to be challenged in court.
 
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casinterest
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:59 am

Avatar2go wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Hypothetical question.

If a President and several hundred Advisers/associates gathered in the White House and plotted a coup, would this plotting be covered by Executive Privilege.

If the plotters were identified, could the President pardon them and himself.

What sanction would they face up to the point that the coup was actually put into effect.


If the President carried out a traditional coup in the US, the rules would likely go out the window. The government would be suspended.

In this case, Trump took a huge gamble that if he overturned the electoral college on the basis of election fraud, his fraud claims would later be substantiated and he would be vindicated in acting to preserve the union. That's how he saw it in his mind. Even to the extent of disbelieving his advisors.

We know now those claims could not be substantiated, not that they were ever reasonable or credible. So eventually his actions would have been deemed illegal. At that point the legality of his actions could potentially invoke the crime-fraud exemption to privilege.

The crime-fraud exception applies if the client was in the process of committing or intended to commit a crime or fraudulent act, and
the client communicated with the lawyer with intent to further the crime or fraud, or to cover it up.


The President's ability to pardon himself or his close advisors, in a crime in which he himself participated, would need to be tested in the courts. Opinions also vary as to the legitimate scope of pardons. He could in theory limit the scope to any crimes committed in the overturning event and actions, as Ford did for Nixon.

It would be a mess, and sure to be challenged in court.


The problem with the court challenge is that it takes time. Trump in thoery could have gotten his way if he had found enough people that truly hated America and the Constitution, Our one saving grace was that there were enough people in the GOP that truly beleive in the US Constitution and the separation of Church and State that they stood against him and his manufactured lies. '
 
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seb146
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sat Jul 23, 2022 5:03 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Hypothetical question.

If a President and several hundred Advisers/associates gathered in the White House and plotted a coup, would this plotting be covered by Executive Privilege.

If the plotters were identified, could the President pardon them and himself.

What sanction would they face up to the point that the coup was actually put into effect.


The courts are stacked, first off. But, putting that aside, A high crime like planning and attempting a coup would not be covered under executive privilege. Also, a former president could not, after his term, pardon himself. He no longer has that power.

A pardon is an admission of guilt. So, all these people who were begging for a blanket pardon were/are guilty. Crimes were committed in the name of almighty MAGA against the Constitution they were sworn to protect and uphold.
 
CometII
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:33 pm

victrola wrote:
Josh Hawley does a Benny Hill routine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-o_CFbydjI


While the optics are catchy, Hawley could easily argue that his fist-pump was merely a rhetorical device, and that he could not have possibly foreseen the events of later in that day (and also that he was unaware of the "chatter" of the prior days and weeks), so that his fist pump can not be "read" from the back fowards so to speak, as an advocation of violence. So I don't think that will have much if any effect on the case.

What it can do however, is to put him and all other Trumpers on notice: with the knowledge we all have now, if at any time in the future you engage in similar behavior, or fiery language near such actors, and an episode of political disturbance or violence promptly ensues, it could well be factored in as evidence in a civil or even criminal case. Because this time you KNOW what can happen if you partake in such language and gesturing with certain elements and movements. And you consciously chose to do it anyways.
 
luckyone
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:39 pm

CometII wrote:
victrola wrote:
Josh Hawley does a Benny Hill routine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-o_CFbydjI


While the optics are catchy, Hawley could easily argue that his fist-pump was merely a rhetorical device, and that he could not have possibly foreseen the events of later in that day (and also that he was unaware of the "chatter" of the prior days and weeks), so that his fist pump can not be "read" from the back fowards so to speak, as an advocation of violence. So I don't think that will have much if any effect on the case.

What it can do however, is to put him and all other Trumpers on notice: with the knowledge we all have now, if at any time in the future you engage in similar behavior, or fiery language near such actors, and an episode of political disturbance or violence promptly ensues, it could well be factored in as evidence in a civil or even criminal case. Because this time you KNOW what can happen if you partake in such language and gesturing with certain elements and movements. And you consciously chose to do it anyways.

Furthering the comedy is Sen. Hawley’s insistence that he will never run…”from liberals.” Really, Joshua. You run from people who agreed with you, so precious.
 
petertenthije
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:34 pm

luckyone wrote:
Furthering the comedy is Sen. Hawley’s insistence that he will never run…”from liberals.” Really, Joshua. You run from people who agreed with you, so precious.

Still, he did not run from liberals, so he spoke the truth.

He probably realised before anyone else (amongst republicans anyway) that team MAGA has a large group of violent people, whereas liberals are less violent? It must be that. Otherwise, Hawley would be a lying coward, and that’s of course unprecedented amongst republicans. LOL
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:03 pm

CometII wrote:

While the optics are catchy, Hawley could easily argue that his fist-pump was merely a rhetorical device, and that he could not have possibly foreseen the events of later in that day (and also that he was unaware of the "chatter" of the prior days and weeks), so that his fist pump can not be "read" from the back forwards so to speak, as an advocation of violence. So I don't think that will have much if any effect on the case.


The police officers who were present and trying to hold back the crowd, testified that Hawley's action riled up the crowd, which became much more agitated. The officers said they felt betrayed by a person they were protecting.

Remember that this crowd was expecting the certification to be overturned, based on what Trump had told them. A position that Hawley supported. So I think he knew exactly what he was doing, and the effect it would have. Just like Trump, he enjoys the power it gives him. A person of conscience would not want that power, which was based on willful manipulation of others, with a lie. Much less use it.

Both Hawley and Trump have displayed a reckless disregard for the consequences of their actions. So I don't think he gets a pass here for inciting disruption or violence. The term the witnesses used repeatedly, was throwing gasoline on a fire.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:58 am

The Jan 6 committee has asked the DHS Inspector General Cuffari to recuse himself, over failure to notify the committee of the Secret Service phone record deletion, until this month. This may explain the urgency of that meeting and what has transpired since. Here is the timeline:

Jan 16 2021 - committee request to preserve all Jan 6 records

Jan 27 2021 - SS phones are wiped during migration

Feb 26 2021 - OIG request to SS to turn over all records

Nov 29 2021 - OIG reports that DHS is stonewalling on records

December 2021 - OIG learns of SS deleted phone migration data

June 14 2022 - OIG reports delay in obtaining SS records

July 13 2022 - OIG notifies Congress that SS data deleted

Under the law, the OIG has 7 days to report to Congress any breach in retention or provision of public records. That has put Cuffari in the hot seat. He is an ex-military Trump appointee from the Arizona state OIG.

The SS claims they had no knowledge of the Jan 16 request, and only received the Feb 26 request, after the migration. They turned over all data that had been preserved by agents before the migration. They continue to insist that there is no evidence that data related to Jan 6 was deleted.

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/26/11138240 ... estigation
 
M564038
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:05 pm

I know they have acted terribly, but calling The Secret Service might be going a bit far.

Avatar2go wrote:
The Jan 6 committee has asked the DHS Inspector General Cuffari to recuse himself, over failure to notify the committee of the Secret Service phone record deletion, until this month. This may explain the urgency of that meeting and what has transpired since. Here is the timeline:

Jan 16 2021 - committee request to preserve all Jan 6 records

Jan 27 2021 - SS phones are wiped during migration

Feb 26 2021 - OIG request to SS to turn over all records

Nov 29 2021 - OIG reports that DHS is stonewalling on records

December 2021 - OIG learns of SS deleted phone migration data

June 14 2022 - OIG reports delay in obtaining SS records

July 13 2022 - OIG notifies Congress that SS data deleted

Under the law, the OIG has 7 days to report to Congress any breach in retention or provision of public records. That has put Cuffari in the hot seat. He is an ex-military Trump appointee from the Arizona state OIG.

The SS claims they had no knowledge of the Jan 16 request, and only received the Feb 26 request, after the migration. They turned over all data that had been preserved by agents before the migration. They continue to insist that there is no evidence that data related to Jan 6 was deleted.

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/26/11138240 ... estigation
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:24 pm

M564038 wrote:
I know they have acted terribly, but calling The Secret Service might be going a bit far.


If by this you were referring to using SS to abbreviate Secret Service, there was no intent to compare to any other organization. It was just an abbreviation.

I actually believe the SS is being truthful in claiming that they asked agents to preserve records in accordance with the law. Whether that is consistent with best practice is open to question.

As has been pointed out, this is a common issue in sharing devices for personal and work purposes. The user needs some discretion but that can lead to retention and preservation problems. Happened in the Clinton e-mail scandal as well.
 
M564038
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:43 pm

SS is an abbrevation that only means one thing. At least after the car manufacturer changed it’s name to Jaguar for the same reason;-) maybe they could call themselves No Service or Secret Trumpsupporters to change the unlucky abbreviation?
SS’ hardest competitor was the (Morris) SA, by the way. Slightly off topic, I know.
Avatar2go wrote:
M564038 wrote:
I know they have acted terribly, but calling The Secret Service might be going a bit far.


If by this you were referring to using SS to abbreviate Secret Service, there was no intent to compare to any other organization. It was just an abbreviation.

I actually believe the SS is being truthful in claiming that they asked agents to preserve records in accordance with the law. Whether that is consistent with best practice is open to question.

As has been pointed out, this is a common issue in sharing devices for personal and work purposes. The user needs some discretion but that can lead to retention and preservation problems. Happened in the Clinton e-mail scandal as well.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:52 pm

M564038 wrote:
SS is an abbrevation that only means one thing. At least after the car manufacturer changed it’s name to Jaguar for the same reason;-) maybe they could call themselves No Service or Secret Trump supporters to change the unlucky abbreviation?
SS’ hardest competitor was the (Morris) SA, by the way. Slightly off topic, I know.


The official abbreviation is USSS. So I will use that going forward to avoid any confusion. The Nazis didn't really even come to mind in regard to the Secret Service. The worst criticism I've seen has been a reference to Major Biden's vindication, after being banned from the Whitehouse for biting agents. And that was meant as a joke, wasn't serious.
 
luckyone
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:55 pm

Out of nowhere Trump announces he is planning to sue CNN for defamatory comments. Guess the hearings are actually getting to him. He’s blowing the dog whistle.
 
Newark727
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:59 pm

luckyone wrote:
Out of nowhere Trump announces he is planning to sue CNN for defamatory comments. Guess the hearings are actually getting to him. He’s blowing the dog whistle.


The man got $5 billion in free media coverage. The least he could do is show a little gratitude.
 
luckyone
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:01 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
Newark727 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Out of nowhere Trump announces he is planning to sue CNN for defamatory comments. Guess the hearings are actually getting to him. He’s blowing the dog whistle.


The man got $5 billion in free media coverage. The least he could do is show a little gratitude.

That was so last year.
 
ACDC8
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:16 pm

The warning signs were there that this would happen if he ever got in to office, his whole approach to power is to make up lies and stories of his adversary just like he tried with Obama some 10 years back with his whole "birth certificate" claims. He and his team had "evidence" and it will be released in a "couple of weeks" - same gibberish he uses today and nothing is every produced. So sad that so many blindly follow this loon.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:57 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
The warning signs were there that this would happen if he ever got in to office, his whole approach to power is to make up lies and stories of his adversary just like he tried with Obama some 10 years back with his whole "birth certificate" claims. He and his team had "evidence" and it will be released in a "couple of weeks" - same gibberish he uses today and nothing is every produced. So sad that so many blindly follow this loon.


Cults of personality are always cause for concern. Rationality doesn't enter into the required belief system. Any opposing evidence will be decried as lies and falsehood, often in advance. Thusly is the path prepared for the tragedy that inevitably follows.

That playbook has been around since the beginning of history. It's a matter of personal character as to which leaders use it, and which reject it. But it's always available, to anyone.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:56 pm

New evidence has surfaced that DHS officials knew of and tolerated deletion of text messages, not only in the USSS, but in their own ranks as well. Further at least one official modified a memorandum requiring staff to turn over messages, to state instead that DHS was pleased with the level of cooperation.

The Committees have also learned that the same senior official in your office, Deputy IG
Kait, removed key language from a February 2022 memorandum to DHS, which had highlighted the importance of text messages to the OIG’s investigation and criticized the Department for not complying with the December 3, 2021, request. The original memorandum, dated February 4,
2022, stated:

To date, most DHS components have not provided the requested information. Text message content is a critical source of information for the DHS OIG review.

However, Deputy IG Kait apparently worked with other senior staff members in your office to alter the memo to remove the reference to text messages and instead praise the Department for its responses. The final version of the memo, signed on February 10, 2022, stated:

On December 17, 2021, we received a timely and consolidated response from each component to our December 3, 2021 request; however, additional and clarifying information is needed before we can complete the reviews.


https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democ ... equest.pdf
 
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seb146
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:39 am

Avatar2go wrote:
New evidence has surfaced that DHS officials knew of and tolerated deletion of text messages, not only in the USSS, but in their own ranks as well. Further at least one official modified a memorandum requiring staff to turn over messages, to state instead that DHS was pleased with the level of cooperation.

The Committees have also learned that the same senior official in your office, Deputy IG
Kait, removed key language from a February 2022 memorandum to DHS, which had highlighted the importance of text messages to the OIG’s investigation and criticized the Department for not complying with the December 3, 2021, request. The original memorandum, dated February 4,
2022, stated:

To date, most DHS components have not provided the requested information. Text message content is a critical source of information for the DHS OIG review.

However, Deputy IG Kait apparently worked with other senior staff members in your office to alter the memo to remove the reference to text messages and instead praise the Department for its responses. The final version of the memo, signed on February 10, 2022, stated:

On December 17, 2021, we received a timely and consolidated response from each component to our December 3, 2021 request; however, additional and clarifying information is needed before we can complete the reviews.


https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democ ... equest.pdf


So deleting emails bad but deleting texts good? Oh, I can't wait to see the pretzel twisting Republicans do to defend this! Go on, MAGAs! Do your worst! How is deleting texts THAT ACTUALLY EXISTED worse than emails that were about cake recipes?
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:39 am

seb146 wrote:

So deleting emails bad but deleting texts good? Oh, I can't wait to see the pretzel twisting Republicans do to defend this! Go on, MAGAs! Do your worst! How is deleting texts THAT ACTUALLY EXISTED worse than emails that were about cake recipes?


The strange thing is that both events occurred due to pre-scheduled phone wipes. The officials involved this time were Trump appointees Kash Patel, Chris Miller, and Ryan McCarthy. Their phones were wiped when they left office on January 20.

We may see some new legislation regarding wiping devices without prior preservation. They should just image the phones before wiping.
 
ACDC8
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:05 am

seb146 wrote:
So deleting emails bad but deleting texts good? Oh, I can't wait to see the pretzel twisting Republicans do to defend this! Go on, MAGAs! Do your worst! How is deleting texts THAT ACTUALLY EXISTED worse than emails that were about cake recipes?

The fact that things like this actually happen with zero accountability paints a very disturbing picture of modern day Governments and elected officials that are voted into office by citizens and for citizens.
 
ltbewr
Topic Author
Posts: 16262
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:12 pm

Avatar2go wrote:
seb146 wrote:
So deleting emails bad but deleting texts good? Oh, I can't wait to see the pretzel twisting Republicans do to defend this! Go on, MAGAs! Do your worst! How is deleting texts THAT ACTUALLY EXISTED worse than emails that were about cake recipes?

The strange thing is that both events occurred due to pre-scheduled phone wipes. The officials involved this time were Trump appointees Kash Patel, Chris Miller, and Ryan McCarthy. Their phones were wiped when they left office on January 20.
We may see some new legislation regarding wiping devices without prior preservation. They should just image the phones before wiping.

When I left my government agency job last November, I had to turn in their issued laptop computer and i-Phone and I believe procedures were in place to copy over data from them as part of a strict document retention policy. The same should have been true with the USSS agents.One has to wonder why the USSS wiped these devices, was it to cover up an embarrassing incident for the agents or Trump ? Was it to prevent very sensitive security information as to USSS agents procedures as to their job to protect the President ? With Trump and the events of 1/6/21, we have a situation where like with aircraft flight recorders, the phones of the USSS agents can have information that can find the truth of what happened, disclosure to the public with certain security information redacted as done with CVR's and FDR's records.
I expect a public hearing of the J6 Committee in early to mid-September featuring the actions of the USSS agents involved that day.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:29 am

The USSS has turned over personal phone numbers of agents to investigators, who will subpoena records of text messages in an attempt to recover those lost due to phone wiping events.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/secret- ... d=88045692
 
bennett123
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:11 pm

Why were they using personal numbers in the first place?.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:28 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Why were they using personal numbers in the first place?.


I believe the phones are government owned and managed but are assigned to the agents for personal use. The agents were asked to preserve any government-related records prior to the scheduled wipe on Jan 27. But the phones were not imaged or copied prior to the wipe. Which means it's not known whether information was lost.

Since the wipe ocurred after the Jan 15 Congressional requests to preserve all information regarding Jan 6, there is some concern about compliance with federal records preservation requirements.

The same issue ocurred with Trump political appointees who left DHS and DoD on Jan 20. Their phones were collected and wiped, which is standard procedure, but should not have been done after the Congressional requests on Jan 15.

Now the remedy will be to subpoena communication records from the providers or from NSA, for those phone numbers in the timeframe leading up to Jan 6.

None of this necessarily means that pertinent information was lost, but it will give investigators a better shot at reconstructing events from a factual record.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:32 pm

Doug Mastriano, Trump ally and candidate for governor in Pennsylvania, cut short his scheduled interview with the Jan 6 committee today, challenging the conduct and validity of the committee. He didn't answer any questions regarding his involvement in the creation of an alternate slate of electors in Pennsylvania. He was at the Jan 6 rally and walked to the Capitol, but was unable to give his speech due to the riot.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html
 
bennett123
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:11 pm

Why can't he testify about something he did as a State Senator?.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:23 pm

The question is whether a state elected official is shielded from federal inquiry regarding a matter of state law, conducted in the discharge of official duties. The act of advocating an alternate slate of electors was a state matter, and not illegal. Which is why the committee wants to change the law.

So the question for the court will be whether the federal government has established sufficient interests in a state matter, as it pertains to the federal election certification, to pierce the shield. Here the 2019 Supreme Court ruling saying Federal courts cannot hear state election cases, may come into play.

The other objections raised by Mastriano, are that the committee does not have a ranking Republican chair, which is a requirement for subpoena powers to be exercised. That argument has been previously dismissed by the court, as Cheney is a ranking Republican, although she was appointed by the Democrats. The rules do not require that a chair be appointed by their party.

A third objection is that video evidence of his testimony not be released, and/or that he would be allowed to create and release his own video evidence. He claims this is necessary because he's in an active campaign for governor. The committee would not agree to either request.
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:04 pm

Rep Scott Perry had his cell phone seized by the FBI. As with Trump, he did not reveal the warrant, but instead went to the "witch hunt" well, claiming the seizure was political and equating it to hiring more IRS agents.

It's believed the warrant may be related to the DOJ investigation of the Jan 6 committee findings. Perry had refused to cooperate with the committee, and had also refused a Congressional subpoena.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3595 ... ell-phone/
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:21 pm

Trump gave an interview today, where he promised an apology and full pardons to anyone involved in the Jan 6 riots, if elected again in 2024.

He said he is financially supporting some of the rioters and their families, but has infamously refused to pay Rudy Giuliani for his legal services to litigate the election fraud cases around the country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... rs-pardon/
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:30 pm

A federal grand jury has issued more than a dozen subpoenas to Trump staff and associates, regarding the Jan 6 scheme to appoint fake electors, as well as fundraising activities after Jan 6 by the Save America PAC. Seems like the parallel DoJ investigation to that of the Jan 6 committee, is gaining steam.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... ng-report/
 
Avatar2go
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Re: January 6 Committee public presentations and hearings

Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:59 am

The Jan 6 grand jury subpoenas increased to 40 this week. This is widely believed to be in preparation for the 60 day "quiet" period the DoJ observes before an election, to avoid the perception of influencing results. So we will likely not hear much more on the grand jury until after the election.

The Jan 6 committee has no such obligation, so hearings will resume this month.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/12/us/p ... 6-doj.html
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